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Jacqui Ford: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford and we’re continuing our series today on sex crimes involving children. Some of the things we’ve been seeing in the Oklahoma City metropolitan area lately is several teachers from local school districts who have been charged with sex crimes for having inappropriate relationships with their students. Of course, it’s easy to find outrage in our teachers engaging with our students. But when we look closely at the law, what we realize is it can be a rather confusing situation for both the teacher and the student. A number of times we see these students who are 16, 17, or 18-years-old who are otherwise legally able to consent. They believe that they are following the law when they’re engaging in activities with their teacher. They think that they have the legal, lawful authority to consent. And, sometimes, even by the government’s account, the children, if you will in these cases, the 16, 17, and 18-years-olds are the ones pursuing the sexual activity. Not to make excuses for what’s appropriate and inappropriate, but the law says that a 16, and 17, and 18-year-old can, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse in certain situations. What they don’t understand, and what many people don’t understand, is that there are special circumstances for teachers. There is a statute, that is separate and distinct from all of the other rape cases, that defines having sex with a student, or an employee of a school. And what it says is that no student can consent to sexual intercourse with a teacher. It arises with a bunch of questions – why is that so? If the teacher is a consenting adult, and the teacher can engage in a consensual sexual act. And the teenager is a consenting adult, for the purposes of this conversation, and can consent to a consensual sexual act. Why can they two of them not do it together? Well, it’s not just because it makes us fell icky. Okay? The idea is that the teacher is in an authoritative position over the student. Whether they are actually in an authoritative position over the student, or they can be perceived by the community, or more correctly spoken, perceived by the student to be in an authoritative position. And that’s why the legislature has carved out this special set of circumstances. It doesn’t always shake out to be fair. Because people are unaware of this law, and it’s only found in one little, tiny paragraph in a very complicated statute in Oklahoma laws. But because the teacher maintains an authoritative position over the student, the law just says under zero circumstances is this okay. People in the community have different, varying opinions on this. And this is not a moratorium. I’m not ‘pro’ teachers having sex with kids, or ‘anti’ teachers having sex with kids. The fact of the matter is that we all owe a duty to each other, and to our children, to talk to them about what the law is. We have a duty to them so that they know when they engage that they think is fun and exciting and is meaningful to them because they’re not really being forced to do it by their teacher in an authoritative position. That they think they’re doing okay because they’re not being coerced, or threatened, or bribed, or promised good grades, or any of those things, that the student needs to know. Because in these cases the student, oftentimes, is not only a victim of the crime charged. The student becomes the victim of the media. The student, especially when we’re dealing with young men, when they’re not seeking charges to be sought against the teacher, the damage to the teacher being charged is as great upon the child, as it is to the teacher. The child now has a reputation in the community of whatever the community wants to accuse him of. But, he’s oftentimes not brought back in and coddled and taken care of because he’s not a child and he’s not a victim of a rape as you and I know rape to be. Oftentimes, he’s embarrassed. Oftentimes, it prohibits him from being able to continue school in that school because he cannot stand to go back and face his peers. Oftentimes, the only way the story gets out is because the student is bragging about it to their friends. And we also know, in those situations, if we’re dealing with teenage boys talking about sex, that those stories oftentimes get drastically exaggerated and embellished, especially in a locker-room setting where we’re bragging and slapping butts, and talking about how much action we got the night before. So, this young man, who, for all intents and purposes, just got to put a new notch in his belt, is now drug through the mud as some child-victim of rape. And having that label placed upon them is as damaging to them in their future as having the label of rapist be placed on the teacher. It’s probably time for the laws to change, but it’s not likely to happen here in Oklahoma. So, we have to understand is where the law is, and what it is what we need to do to inform our kids and not find ourselves in this position. If you’re a student out there listening to this and you’re engaged in that kind of activity, I would encourage you, if this is not something that you want to be made public and to be drug into court to talk about it and testify about it, that you keep your mouth shut. If you’re a teacher engaged in this type of activity with a student I suggest that you stop it right now. Because the damage to your relationship, and the damage to your career is greater than you can ever imagine. And the results of how this is going to shake out just can’t be measured. So, if we’re dealing with student on teacher sexual assault, or rape, as it’s defined in Oklahoma, it carries a mandatory minimum of one year, and a maximum of 15 years in the Department of Corrections. That teacher will be required to register as a sex offender for the rest of their life. Which not only means they’re going to never teach again, but they’re likely not going to be able to live in the metropolitan-area because of sex offender registration laws, and restrictions on where folks can live. Although, the idea of a child being the aggressor in these situations is, although it may be factually true, it has some appeal for a jury because I think jurors understand day-to-day activities and real life way better than legislators ever could. But it is not a legal defense. And it’s important for us to recognize the difference between legal defenses and arguments made to a jury. To run the risk of taking a case like this to jury trial carries with it a huge burden when the teacher is facing 15 years in the Department of Corrections. Prosecutors in this state have no interest in making deals with teachers because our prosecutors are elected officials. And as soon as they don’t charge you, or make a deal where you’re not a convicted felon, or don’t require you to register, that will be their first ad against them in their next election. It’s going to draw opponents. And, unfortunately, elected positions make decisions based upon their future electability, and not what’s right and wrong. In the same vein, our legislators continue to make laws that don’t make any sense, and aren’t designed to protect anybody, justified to criminalize activity that people are going to engage in, and have been engaging in for hundreds of years. And they’re not going to loosen up the ties on these laws, so we owe it each other, and to our kids, to inform them. So, what if you’re a teacher, or you’re a student, and you find yourself in this situation? Is this all doom and gloom and everything’s awful, and we should just pack up our bags and go to prison for the rest of our lives? No. The most important thing you need to do if you’re involved in this situation now, whether it’s been disclosed, or has come out publicly, is you need to contact an experienced sex crimes defense lawyer that knows how to handle the cases from the get-go. The worst thing you can do is go give a statement to law enforcement without the advice, sound advice of an experienced criminal defense lawyer. And, worse than that, is to go out publically and answer questions with the media. So, we would encourage you, if you have any questions about rape, or sex crimes, in Oklahoma City, or sex crimes involving children, specifically with regards to teachers and students, and other employees of a school district, please give us a call and let us at least be able to advise you, if not represent you in the future. I think it’s an important note to make that I’ve been representing teachers, and teachers alone, but it doesn’t apply just to teachers. It applies to any adult employee of a school district. You know? Including the principals, or a counselor, or a coach, anyone who’s employed by the school district is deemed to have an authoritative position over the children. And all of them are off limits.

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.   Jacqui Ford: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and today we’re going to be talking more about sex crimes. Today’s topics are going to include sex crimes involving children, but not as you might understand. The laws in Oklahoma have very strong protections for minors and children under the age of 18 from being exploited for the purposes of child pornography. The problem the laws in Oklahoma have right now is that the law can’t keep up with technology. And what we see is that these children, who the laws were designed to protect from adult predators, are now becoming defendants charged with possession, and distribution, and procurement of child pornography. How is this happening? There is a word that I imagine most of our parents are familiar with called ‘sexting.’ And I’ve learned this word from my teenaged clients and friends. Sexting is the act of texting in a flirtatious or sexual way. What we see more and more these days with cameras and videos on everyone’s phones is that our children, mostly our teenagers, but they’re still children under the law, are engaging in an act of exchanging photographs with their friends, and their boyfriends and girlfriends. What they children don’t know is what they’re doing is a crime. It’s a felony crime in the state of Oklahoma to possess child pornography. It is a felony crime in the state of Oklahoma to manufacture child pornography. And it is a felony crime in the state of Oklahoma to distribute child pornography. Each and every one of those crimes is a registerable offense. How do our teenagers find themselves charged with possession, manufacture, or distribution? Oftentimes, the situation is it’s a boyfriend/girlfriend, and one, or the other, for the purposes of our argument we’ll pick on the boys, sends a text to his girlfriend. They’re flirting back and forth and talking about all of the things they want to do to one another. And boyfriend says, “Hey, why don’t you send me a pic?” Girlfriend, whether she’s inclined to do so, or not, ultimately decides she’s going to send a sexy pic of herself to her boyfriend because, “Who wants to be rejected? Who doesn’t want to give their boyfriend what he’s asking for?” And she takes a photograph of herself. If she is under the age of 18, she has now manufactured child pornography. Once she has that has that photograph, or video, on her phone she’s committed the secondary crime of possessing the child pornography that she manufactured. And the moment she hits ‘SEND’ she has participated in the distribution of child pornography. These are very, very serious crimes. Possession of child pornography, including showing it, or publishing it to others, or sending it, are all registerable offenses. They carry a minimum of 30 days and up to 10 years in the Oklahoma Department of Corrections. We’ve talked numerous times on this podcast about this special kind of probation terms that you can receive in Oklahoma which include ‘deferreds’ and ‘suspendeds.’ And suspended sentences are, in fact, felony convictions. They will follow you for the rest of your life. A felony conviction cannot be expunged off of your record. Therefore, the law permits for deferred sentences. But in these cases, the state legislature has said that you are not entitled to a deferred. Which means that your precious 17-year-old child who was either the textor, or the textee, who is in possession of these sexy pics, is now a convicted felon for the rest of his, or her, life. What a terrifying result for kids just doing what kids do. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is not a defense. And, depending on where you’re located, and who your prosecuting agency is, the consequences can be quite grave. If you solicit pictures of child pornography, ask for them, send out a request, it carries up to 20 years in the Oklahoma Department of Corrections. That is an ‘85% crime.’ Again, there are no ‘deferreds’ and you will register for the rest of your life. The fines are astronomical – more money than teenagers can fathom making in their lifetime. So, it’s incredibly problematic. We owe a duty to our children to talk to them about sexting. To talk to them about the consequences of sexting. And it’s important that we all know that just because we know it’s ‘just kids being kids’; the cops don’t care and the district attorneys don’t care. It is a violation of the law and they do arrest these children. And they do take them to jail. And they do, in fact, charge them with felony crimes. Sometimes these children will be charged in adult court; sometimes they will be charged in juvenile court. But, regardless, the consequences are life-long. You cannot go back and fix it. So, as parents, and educators, and friends of kids, and aunts and uncles, we all have to be able to have these hard conversations. And nobody wants to go talk to their children about sex or sexting. And nobody wants to have a conversation as to whether, or not, their beautiful has sent nude photographs of herself, or if their handsome son is sending nude photographs of himself. But we owe it to them as their parents, and the people here to teach them, because ignorance of this law is no defense, and the consequences last a lifetime. So, with all this information it sounds pretty desperate. That there’s no defense, and that our children are going to be destroyed forever. The fact of the matter is that’s not the case. That is the way the law is designed, but when you hire an experienced criminal defense lawyer who works in these kind of cases, we understand how to negotiate these matters and how to navigate you, and your child, through the incredibly traumatic criminal justice system. These cases can be worked out. We can work with the district attorney to do things to mitigate the damages. Although, they’re not legal defenses as if we we’re in front of jury, there are ways to be able to save our kids in certain situations. So, if we’re a parent listening to this, I don’t want to leave you feeling sad and desperate and hopeless. That’s absolutely not the case. In fact, there’s a lot of hope and there’s a lot of light at the end of this tunnel. It’s just going to take some work. So, you want to make sure when you seek counsel that you find someone who’s experienced in defending children who are charged in these kinds of child pornography cases. Who are familiar with sexting and the laws surrounding sexting in Oklahoma today. If you ever need any information on these matters, please feel free to contact our office. It would be our pleasure to at least be able to advise you, if not represent you and your child.

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford. Today we’re going to be talking about assault and battery, and defending assault and battery cases in the state of Oklahoma. Assault and battery comes in a huge variety of shapes and sizes. The number of statutes dealing with assault and battery are very many. We’ll not be able to talk about all of them today, but we’re going to hit the big ones to be able to give you the information you need in case you, or a friend, or family member, is charged with assault and battery. First of all, there’s the simple misdemeanor assault and battery. You think about the bar-fight guy. You know? And you’ve had a little bit too much to drink, and we get mouthy, and we put hands on one another. But there’s no major injuries, no broken bones, no weapons are used, it’s just fist-on-fist, ‘boys being boys’, or you know ‘girls being girls.’ Simple misdemeanor assault and battery is a very, very common charge. And as long as there’s not some sort of familial relationship that gives rise to a domestic violence case, then we’re dealing with generally just a misdemeanor simple assault and battery. Simple assault and battery is a misdemeanor, and it generally carries no time to up to 90 days in the county jail. Generally, up to a $1000 fine, the jury could assess prison, or jail time, or the fine, or both. So, it carries up to about 90 days. That’s for simple misdemeanor assault and battery. Oftentimes, people get confused about the difference between assault and battery, or simple assault. The example that I generally give is if I’m pulling my fist back and say, “Oh, I’m going to hit ya!” That’s an assault. You’re threatening an act of violence. The battery doesn’t occur until actual contact is made. So, we could be charged in simple assault by threatening someone with harm. But to get to the rise of assault and battery actual contact must be made from the perpetrator to the victim, or some extension of their body. Many times we see assault and battery charged as a felony. And people don’t understand how it goes from misdemeanor to felony. So, a misdemeanor means no major injuries, there’s no scarring, maiming, you know, and no weapons were used. But the minute you pick up a weapon, no matter how benign that weapon may be, you given rise to being charged with what we call assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. A dangerous weapon could be anything. It could be the stapler on your desk. It could be your shoe. It could be anything that you take in your possession to use as force against another person. Oftentimes, that item is being used in a manner it which it was not described to be used. So, if we pick up a trash can and throw it at somebody that’s assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. We just went from what should have been a very simple misdemeanor charge, to a felony charge. And it carries up to 10 years in The Department of Corrections. Many folks are surprised to know that. If we use another kind of weapon, a weapon that is otherwise deemed deadly, and using it oftentimes has deadly results. Let’s think of a knife, a gun, nunchucks, a sword, something to that effect that is going to be used to cause serious, serious damage. Or, a car. Oftentimes, we see assault and batter with a deadly weapon with the use of a car. That is an 85% crime. This is a big deal. It’s a huge difference between assault and battery weapon with a dangerous which is deemed a violent crime, and assault and battery with a deadly when we’re attempting to use deadly force on another person. With no priors, that carries 0 to 20 years. And it’s 85% meaning if you’re sentenced to 10 years you must server 8.5 years before even being eligible for parole. The real scary part about these felony charges is: if when you’re charged with these crimes you have prior felony conviction in your history, especially within the last 10 years, the laws of enhancement in Oklahoma drastically change your range of punishment. If you have one prior felony, and you pick up an assault and battery with a dangerous, as opposed to being faced with 0 to 10 years, you’re looking at 10 to life. With two priors, you’re getting up to 20 to life. And the same rules apply over there on that deadly weapon. You know? It’s 0 to 20 with no priors. 10 to life with one prior. 20 to life with two priors. And every bit of those sentences on the deadly weapon charges carry and 85% penalty. Meaning, if you are sentenced to the minimum of 20 years because you have two or more priors, you’re going to serve 17 calendar years before even being eligible for parole. And it’s important to inform yourself so that we can make quality cost-benefit analysis before we choose to engage in picking up weapons to defend ourselves, or make our point. Most people don’t know, and ignorance of the law no defense. You start adding in other elements to assault and batteries, specifically with a dangerous weapon and you have a mask on. And now you’ve got a minimum of five and upwards of 20 years in The Department of Corrections. Like I say, the statutes go on and on. So, there are a lot of ways and variations to enhance your punishment. One that we see a lot of, especially in today’s environment of, you know, kind of a rogue police force, and this militarization of police that’s being used against citizens, they like to charge now assault and battery upon a police officer. Assault and battery on a police officer, with no prior felony charges, carries up to five years in The Department of Corrections. So, what 10 years ago would have been treated as resisting arrest, now has it’s own statute that can possibly incarcerate you for up to five years. If a law enforcement officer says that you threatened him, and that you made an offensive contact with his body, or some extension thereof, we went from resisting, which is simply a misdemeanor, up to a felony charge. It’s unfortunate, but the law does treat law enforcement as more entitled to be free from unlawful touching than anyone else. Certain other things that sometimes come up, you don’t see it all the time, but threatening judges, or lawyers, or witnesses, any kind of court reporter, also carries up to five years in the Department of Corrections. If we’re messing with a juror who’s sitting in jury, that extension of time extends six months. So, you really have to be careful about engaging in threatful or violent behavior. Oftentimes, people ask, “Are these violent charges?” And violent charges have different meanings to different people. For the purposes of our discussion, it is, the question is whether or not it’s violent under Oklahoma Statute Title 57 Section 571. If you’re convicted of a violent crime, and that violent crime is in Oklahoma Statutes, and what that means is you have to serve upwards of 45% of that sentence in The Department of Corrections. Now that is not statutorily required like the 85% crime. That’s just policy-wise. You can also be required after a conviction, or a plea of guilty, to register as a violent offender. Not many people know that we have a Violent Offender Registry in the state of Oklahoma. It’s very similar to the Sex Offender Registry in the state of Oklahoma. If you’re convicted of a violent offense, and you’re required to register as a violent offender, and you refuse to do so, or you do not comply with the rules and conditions of the Violent Offender Registry, you have now exposed yourself not only to a new felony charge, but also to a possible probation violation if you’re on probation for that underlying felony. So, these are things that are important to keep in mind. Assault and battery with a deadly is 85%. It is also deemed a violent crime. When we’re filling out job applications, loan applications, apartment applications, these are oftentimes questions that are asked. “Have you ever been arrested for, or charged, with a violent crime?” These are very different questions than, “Have you been convicted of a violent crime?” So, it’s important that we think about our actions before we engage in them. And we do good, strong cost-benefit analysis. One of the other assault and batteries that we’ve seen pop up lately is assault and battery on school employees. And that could include a coach, or a teacher, or things like that. It’s still deemed a misdemeanor as long as there’s no great bodily injury or no weapon used. But it carries up to a $2000 fine. The legislature’s really trying to encourage folks to keep their hands to their self . Aggravated assault and battery can increase your range of punishment. Causing great bodily injury, and maiming, and scars increases your range of punishment. What I generally find with assault and battery cases is most folks don’t engage in putting their hands on one another. Right? If has happened we’ve got some underlying issues. And part of our job is to figure out what those underlying issues are. Is it because I was drunk and intoxicated? Was it because there’s an incredible amount of stress going on in the home, and we need to figure out how to deal with these stressors? Oftentimes, the court wants to know what the heck was going on too. Why is this person acting so far outside of the norm of socially-accepted behavior? So, if we’re trying to work a deal for you. Or, you going to be put on probation in the future. It might be part of what your lawyer asks you to do, which is to go get a drug and alcohol assessment. Or, go get an anger-management assessment. Maybe we can put you in some anger-management classes. These classes are different than the mandatory domestic violence classes that we’ve talked about in previous podcasts that are 52- weeks long. Batterers’ intervention courses are much shorter. There are several programs locally that are just 13 weeks. Some are 26 weeks. They include an assessment ahead of time, and the assessor makes some sort of, you know, recommendations on how long you should be involved in those classes. And clearly it’s more than you go to class and they tell you to keep your hands to yourself. It’s really designed to help you figure out how to better deal with stressors, so that we don’t find our

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and we’re talking today about DUIs, DWIs, and what Oklahoma calls actual physical control. These are all crimes that you could be facing if you engage in an activity including drinking and driving. There is a huge misconception in this world about what is legal, and what is not legal. There’s no law that says you cannot have a drink, and then drive a car. The law says you cannot drive a car while impaired or under the influence of alcohol. What does that mean in application? Well, real briefly, we have three different types of drunk-driving in Oklahoma. The first one is DWI. We don’t see a whole lot of DWI charges because it’s a very limited number of folks. DWI stands for driving while intoxicated, and it’s something less than DUI. It generally applies when your blood alcohol content 0.05 to 0.07. So, it’s less than the mandatory requirement for DUI which is a 0.08 blood alcohol content. But it’s something greater than, “I’ve had a drink, and I got in the car.” So, DWI is the first charge that you might see when dealing with DUI charges in the state in Oklahoma. Although, it’s not applied as often, it is certainly a nice benefit for individuals who were charged with DUI, and the scientific evidence comes back and says maybe they weren’t. It carries pretty much the same range of punishment. The consequences for probation are pretty much the same. So, we’ll kind of skip over DWI for those purposes, and talk about what most of us know to be drunk driving in Oklahoma. It’s called driving under the influence – DUI. Sometimes, referred to as a ‘dewey.’ DUI simply means that you are driving a vehicle under the influence of alcohol, law enforcement believes that either by scientific evidence, or subjective evidence of their observations, that you’re body is under the influence, and therefore, you’re not safe to drive. The range of punishment for DUI in Oklahoma is very great. Much like some of our other charges, like possession of marijuana, and domestic violence that we’ve talked about in the past. Your first time DUI is almost always treated as a misdemeanor, unless it has some aggravating characteristic. So, most folks first-time DUI is a misdemeanor. The range of punishment is a mandatory 10 days in the county jail, up to a year, and up to a $1000 fine. Many people think about DUIs and they realize that a lot of their friends and family members have them. It has a very morally unsound connotation. And judges are harsh on DUIs. And prosecutors are harsh on DUIs. And our legislature, as we speak right now, are trying to make DUI charges and convictions enhanceable so that people will be charge with felonies in a quicker, more efficient way. So, they can be very, very dangerous. They’re also one of the most common crimes we commit, and also one of the safest crimes to commit. What you have to know, if you’ve been charged with a DUI, or you’re being arrested for a DUI, is how to interact with law enforcement, and what to expect moving forward. So, if you’re pulled over, and you’ve had a few drinks, and you know that the police officer’s going to ask you a serious of questions. My first advice to folks is you’re not require to answer any of their questions. You’re only required to give your driver’s license and insurance verification. And if you can find a polite, respectful way to decline other questions, that’s my first piece of advice. You have a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I strongly encourage that you use it. And you can do it in a simple way as saying, “Officer, I do not wish to engage in consensual contact, and answer any of your questions at this time.” That sounds a lot easier said than done. We want to engage with law enforcement, and we want to answer their questions, and they know that. They’re banking on the fact that we’re going to be a little bit nervous. But, what you have to understand is that these questions are designed to elicit answers that give rise to arrest you for DUI. So, if you answer those questions, you are causing yourself more harm than good. One of the that a law-enforcement officer will ask you to do if he believes that you’re driving under the influence of alcohol, is engage in field-sobriety tests. And you’re not required to engage in field-sobriety tests. And, in fact, I encourage most people not to do so. The tests are incredibly subjective. They’re set up for you to fail, and the officer’s observations, especially if you’re not recorded, and here in Oklahoma City most law-enforcement officers are not equipped with dash-cams or body-cams to be able record your actions. So, the evidence that’s going to be presented against you is simply the police officer’s interpretation of how well you followed those instructions. And usually, that is not to your benefit. So, I would encourage you to resist the urge to prove your sobriety by getting up and doing field-sobriety tests. Those tests are designed to make you look guilty, and have you arrested. The next question everybody always asks is, “Do I blow, or do not blow, into the Breathalyzer machine?” And this is a very sensitive topic. And everybody asks drunk-driving lawyers this question all the time. If we represent people in DUIs, should I blow, or should I not blow? And, 10 years ago, the answer was if you think there’s a possibility that you might be DUI don’t blow. Because you’re giving them evidence to convict you criminally. Now, a DUI charge has two elements to it. Not only do you have a criminal battle to fight – whether, or not you’re going to jail and paying $1000 fines for your actions. But, you also have a civil matter going on. And that’s through The Department of Public Safety. And The Department of Public Safety says that you do not have a right to drive a vehicle in the state of Oklahoma. You have the privilege to drive a vehicle in the state of Oklahoma. And they, with all of their incredible lobbying, expenses, have lobbied the legislature, and have really changed the way DUI laws are handled and how people give advice. If you refuse to blow in a Breathalyzer, and law enforcement has suspected and accused you of DUI, your refusal to blow will result in the revocation of proceedings from The Department of Public Safety. Depending on your history, and if you’ve ever had DUIs in the past, how long you’ll be revoked, and how long you’ll be subjected to what we call a modified driver’s license, is determined based upon your priors. But a refusal’s going to revoke you for at least six months. And in order to get re-instated you will have to put a breathalyzer in your car for an additional 18 months. So, a refusal means two months of a breathalyzer in your car if we lose DPS hearings, and we don’t have any other issues to deal with there. So, whether to blow, or not blow, only you know how much you’ve had to drink. If you know you are not above the legal limit of 0.08, then I would certainly encourage you to consider blowing for two reasons. Number one, it will give exculpatory evidence to you DUI charge, and we may be able to get it down to a DWI or complete dismissal. In the alternative, it keeps your driving privileges intact with The Department of Public Safety. There are other ways that DUIs can go down. We could talk for hours about defending DUIs in Oklahoma, but we just have a limited amount of time. So, we’re going to move quickly to how you find yourself charged with a felony DUI. If you have been arrested, and entered a plea, and been convicted for a DUI within the last 10 years, your next DUI is very likely to be filed as a felony charge. So, you get one shot a misdemeanor, and if you pick up another one it’s very likely you’ll be dealing with a felony charge. The range of punishment there is one year to five years in The Department of Corrections, and an increased fine. Your second felony within 10 years carries 1 to 10 years in The Department of Corrections, and a $5000 fine. And your third felony DUI within 10 years carries up to 20 years in The Department of Corrections and up to a $5000 fine. It is clearly obvious that the legislature is trying to discourage folks with chronic drinking problems from getting behind the wheel of the car. Not telling you not to drink. They’re telling you not to get behind the wheel of the car and put at risk the lives of everybody else on the road. How else do you find yourself with felony charges with a DUI? One of the things we see more, and more often, is that the driver has a child in the car. If you have a child in the car, and you’re arrested for, suspected of, and charged with DUI, you can likely expect to get charged with child endangerment, as well. Which is a felony crime – carries up to four year in The Department of Corrections and up to a $5000 fine. Another quick way to make an otherwise benign, simple DUI a felony is if you’re involved in an accident that results in personal injury of another person. That is problematic, and it is an enhancer, and depending on your priors, and facts and circumstances could give rise to felony charges. It could give rise to simply a misdemeanor charge of personal injury DUI which carries up to a year and up to a $2500 fine. What happens if you are charged, and you go to court, and you decide to enter a plea. Well, Oklahoma laws are pretty specific. And each municipality kind of deals with these things in their own vein. But if we’re dealing strictly with state court, and that’s probably the best way to do it for these purposes, is upon a plea of guilty, or no contest, and a finding of guilt by a judge, whether we’re convicted of the DUI, or we’re placed on a simple deferred, Oklahoma law mandates that we do some things. The first thing you’re going to have to do is a drug and alcohol assessment, and any follow-up that they recommend. That’s conducted by a state-qualified assessor. It’s a battery of questions. They take you’re answers and plug them into a formula and they make recommendations as to what you need to do address the issues that found us here. Oftentimes, experienced assessors also know what the law is. And they know upon a finding of guilt, or

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and we will be talking about domestic violence in Oklahoma. So, if you are charged with domestic violence, or a friend or a loved one, is charged with domestic violence in the state of Oklahoma, here’s some information you must know. Domestic violence can be charged in a number of different ways. It can be charged as a misdemeanor, or a felony. And we’ll talk about the different reasons as it might be filed either way. One of the first, and most important, things to know that domestic violence is different than simple assault and battery, based upon who the players are. So, you can’t have a domestic violence charge without the victim, or the abuser, being a spouse, or a former spouse, or boyfriend/girlfriend, a parent, some sort of foster parent, a child, some sort of blood relative, or relative by marriage, parent of a mutual child. There has to be some sort of relationship there. And it even extends to someone who’s currently living in a house, even if there’s no familial relationship. So, you might see that in a roommate situation. So, domestic abuse requires some sort of pre-existing relationship before the crime occurs, to give rise, to enhance it from a simple assault and battery. You know? A stranger bar fight or something. To give it this extra bump of domestic violence. And why does that matter? It matters because when you’re charged with domestic violence the community and the legislature has decided that that act is much more offensive than the act of getting in a fight with a stranger in a street. That we somehow owe each other a greater duty because we have this familial relationship, or dating relationship. That we should engage in behavior that’s even greater than the amount of respect guaranteed to strangers. So, if someone has been arrested, and you know that they’re being charge with domestic violence you should know that that means the government believes there’s some sort of relationship there. As a general rule, the first-time offense of domestic violence, if there’s no great bodily injury, and no strangulation, and no aggravating factors, most likely will be treated as a misdemeanor. If it’s just a run-of-the-mill domestic violence case, then it will be treated as a misdemeanor. What does that mean? A misdemeanor means that you’re only looking at up to a year in the county jail. In Oklahoma, it also carries a $5000 fine. Your first-time offense could be charged in a municipal court, like the City of Oklahoma City, or Mustang, or Yukon, or Piedmont. Or, you could be charged in state court. And oftentimes, dv cases do get transferred over to state court because they carry with them extra obligations, as opposed to a simple assault and battery. First off, it’s important to talk about bond. If you’re arrested for domestic violence, especially if you’re arrested close in time to the allegations, the fight is on at the house, someone calls the police, the police come out and they remove you, and they take you to jail. You can almost guarantee that you’re going to be held in jail without bond. That means, unlike a DUI, or a simple possession of marijuana, where you know your bond is going to be set at $1000 or $2000, you call a bondsman and you pop on out. In a domestic violence case the law permits the government to hold you for 72 hours. They call it ‘cooling-off period.’ Allows emotions to calm down, and whatever gave rise to allowing the situation to get out of control will have an opportunity to subside. Many say it gives the victim an opportunity to pack their bags and get out. But either way, there’s a 72 hour hold. Does that mean your stuck in jail for three days? No. It does mean you’re stuck in jail for three days if you don’t hire an experienced lawyer to defend you on these domestic violence cases. How do we get that 72-hour hold lifted? Well, we go to the district attorney, we come meet you, we find out the information about your case, and we go make an argument to the judge that this cooling-off period is not necessary. There’s a 1000 different ways we can do that, and we could be here all day talking about. But what’s important is if you’ve been arrested, or your loved-one has been arrested, and they’re being held with a 72-hour hold, contact us. We’ll get in there and see what we can do to get that bond lifted so that we can get the accused person out and back to work so that they can get back to life as usual. What else do we need to know about domestic violence? A second charge of domestic violence most likely give rise to a felony charge in the state of Oklahoma. So, your first-time arrest they give you a nice little slap on the wrist. Your second-time offense you’re looking at felony charges that carry up to four years in The Oklahoma Department of Corrections. Again, up to a $5000 fine. Each time we find ourselves charged with domestic the possible range of punishment could be greater. But the facts really matter more than anything. Domestic violence carries a number of differently qualifying statutes. What does it mean to have ‘great bodily injury?’ So, you may not have any prior domestic violence charges, but in this situation, the actions that gave rise caused an incredible injury to one of the parties. Maybe a nose got broken, or a finger got broke. We would call that great bodily injury. First-time offense carries up to 10 years in The State Department of Corrections. Heaven forbid, we’re charged with, accused of committing domestic violence against a pregnant woman, whether it’s your first-time offense, whether she suffers any injuries or not. If she’s pregnant, and you know it, the range of punishment is up to 10 years in The State Department of Corrections and a $10000 fine. Sometimes we see people charged with domestic violence by strangulation, and all that means is that someone put their hands on, or around, your airways in an attempt to stop you from breathing naturally. That carries up to three years, a minimum of one year, which means one year in the Department of Corrections, and up to three years, and up to a $3000 fine. These are pretty serious allegations. Each one of the enhancers does not require a misdemeanor to give it rise to be a felony. If, during any of these charges, you are found guilty, either by a judge or a jury, in the course of a trial or by plea, even if you receive a deferred sentence, (Which we’ve talked about before which is a special kind of probation, that’s not a conviction, but allows the court to make a finding of guilt, and put you on probation to meet your certain probationary needs, at the end of that sentence the case is dismissed.) Even in a domestic violence situation where you’re charged and sentenced, under a deferred sentence, you’re still required under Oklahoma statute to engage in a 52-week batterers’ intervention course. What does that mean? Well, that is a domestic violence course. And you are required to participate for 52 weeks – that’s an entire year. Any finding of guilt, either by a jury or a judge, based on a plea or trial, will result in such a requirement. This is important because that is a stringent probationary requirement. There’s no other law in the state of Oklahoma that requires mandatory one-year’s worth of classes for any other action. So, it’s important to know if you’re going to enter a plea, if that’s your planned anticipated solution, that you might want start enrolling in those classes early. You start engaging in those classes, you learn the skills and tools necessary to be able to better deal with better conflict within the home environment. And that helps us assist you in negotiating a better deal on your behalf. 52-weeks batterers’ intervention course is not an option. It is mandatory. So, it’s important to know that any plea, of any kind, no matter what your lawyer says, will require 52 weeks. And that’s every week. You know? Maybe you miss a week here or there, you can make it up. But they’re pretty serious about you starting it and completing it with the same groups of folks you started it with. One the things people always ask about domestic violence is, “Is this a violent offense?” Well, by its very name it must be deemed violent because it’s violent, domestic violence. However, it’s not violent for the purposes of whether, or not, you’re a violent offender in the state of Oklahoma. Do you have to register as a violent offender on the Violent Offender Registry? The answer is no. It is a violent offense for other reasons. People who are looking at an application for you to rent from their rental property. Maybe you’re trying to rent a house, or a duplex, or even an apartment. Domestic violence charges can, and oftentimes do, prohibit you from having access to that rental property. People will just say, “No. We’re not doing it.” If you are currently renting, and you are charged with domestic violence, and the police have been called out to your apartment complex because of a domestic violence issue, in many leases you will find a term that says they can terminate you, and everyone who’s in that house, if you return after a domestic violence case. These are things people don’t know about. So, it’s important when you think about how to move forward, and where you’re going to positon yourself on probation, what are some of the consequences? And it’s very prohibitive in a number of differ ways. Employers look at domestic violence with a special eye, oftentimes, too. People judge it one way, or the other. And it’s very much, kind of the same as DUI. Right? If you’ve got 10 friends of average, ordinary character probably two or three of them have experienced a DUI in their life. Many people look at DUIs as this horrible, awful, violent crime that puts at risk the lives of everybody in the world. Many people look at DUIs as very simply, the safest crime in the world to commit. And everybody does it, and sometimes we get caught. Same kind of thing on domestics. People either look at it with a grain of salt, which is, this happens. Relationships are wired-up. Men get out of control. Women get a little crazy. And they either kind of dis

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense Podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford. And today we’re going to talk about defending murder charges. So, if you’re in Oklahoma City, or the Oklahoma state area, and you’ve been charged with murder you’ve big, big problems on your hands. Most likely, if you’re listening to this podcast you may have a friend or family member who’s been charged with some version of murder in the state of Oklahoma, and you need to know what their rights are and how we can move forward in defending them. I’ve got good news. You’re listening to someone who happens to know a little bit about this. There are all kinds of different murders that we all think about – levels of murder. But, in Oklahoma, we really only have two: that’s murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree. There are lots of other homicide cases, and we’ll save those for another podcast, for another day. But, let’s talk about murder. So, if we’re charged with murder in the first degree, one of two things the government is alleging. Either, this crime was committed with malice aforethought. Which means that you planned it, and you thought about it, and you executed that plan. Or, that this murder occurred during the commission of an inherently dangerous felony. You hear it on the news, and people use the language the felony murder rule. The felony murder rule picks up more murder charges than most other types of murders here in Oklahoma. And that’s because the legislature has decided if you are engaged in behavior that is so inherently dangerous, that you should be able to foresee a death occurring, and a death occurs, whether you did it, or your co-defendant did it, or the person that’s actually being shot at committed the homicide, the perpetrator of the underlying felony can, and will, be charged with murder in the first degree. It’s kind of a head scratcher. It goes against what we naturally think about when we think about murder in the first degree. Most of us think when you’re charged with murder in Oklahoma, that you must have had some sort of evil intent, or malice aforethought. One of the interesting things to know is that malice aforethought, and that intent, can happen in Oklahoma, in a second. There’s no need that you plan it, or think about it. You’re decision to take someone else’s life can happen in a moment’s time. And that is the same charge as if you were plotting and planning it for months on end. That’s incredibly scary, because in that very moment that you make a decision to either pull the trigger, or slash that knife, or engage in whatever activity that’s given rise to the death of this individual, you are now facing very, very serious punishment. Punishment for murder in the first degree in Oklahoma is very simple – minimum life in prison. Maximum penalty – death. The only thing in between is life without the possibility of parole. We’ll talk about all three of those really briefly. Life, in the state of Oklahoma, is calculated at 40 years. Basically, you have to serve 38 years and three months of any sentence before you’re ever even eligible for parole. So, if you’re sentenced for murder, and you’re sent to The State Department of Corrections, and you don’t have an appellate relief anywhere, you are going to sit there day-for-day for 38 years and three months before the Parole and Pardon Board even looks at your case to determine whether, or not, you’re eligible for early release. That’s a pretty overwhelming number. Many states in this country have a range of punishment. Our good friends down south, Texas, the wild, wild west if you will. In Texas, you can murder somebody, and murder in the first degree has a range of punishment of a minimum of five years, and a maximum of life. Why does that matter? Because, man it makes working these cases out on a plea deal next to impossible. The same rule applies with murder in the first degree felony murder. The punishment is life calculated at 45 years. You’ll serve 38 years and three months before being eligible for parole. Or, life without the possibility of parole. Life without the possibility of parole is exactly what it sounds like. That means you go into The Department of Corrections and you never, ever step out. You will die and buried in an unmarked, sad grave somewhere in The State Department of Corrections. You will never, ever breathe another breath of fresh air. Life without the possibility of parole is an incredibly harsh, oftentimes, deemed unjust punishment. Because, people who engage in this activity, unfortunately, oftentimes are young people. They’re young people who’s brains haven’t even developed so much that they can do a nice cost-benefit analysis of whether, or not, to engage in the behavior that they’re engaged in. Life without the possibility of parole is the thing that drives most people into pleading guilty to a murder charge, even if they’re not guilty. It’s a very, very scary proposition because that judgment is very final. And, it leaves very little room for a jury to justify some of your actions, or mitigate the fact that you were young and inexperienced. Or, that you suffer from mental health illnesses. Or, that you do not have the requisite education to make a cognizant decision. All of these things matter for the purposes negotiating a plea on murder charges. They do not matter when a jury is assessing punishment. They are not given the opportunity to reduce your sentence because you’re a 17-year-old that functions at a seventh-grade level. And you have mental health issues, and a life and history of abuse. The law in Oklahoma doesn’t care. The other type of murder that we see, oftentimes charged in the state of Oklahoma, is murder in second degree – depraved mind. What does that mean? Well, it means that you’ve walked into a situation, and you’ve almost ‘lost it.’ It’s almost a moment of insanity. You’ve lost your good judgment. Your mind is depraved of good will. The example that we oftentimes see is if you walk in and you see your spouse in bed with another person, and you absolutely lose it. And, you jump on the bed and you just choke the living life out of one of the two of them. If that happens you may be charged with murder in the second degree. It is my experience that you’re likely going to be charge with murder in the first degree, and we can ask a jury to convict you murder in the second degree. Murder in the second degree is very uncommonly charged. I think the point of that is because our law allows malice aforethought to happen in a second, the district attorneys use that knowledge, and that use of the law to be able to charge you with murder in the first degree to force a plea down your throat for a depraved-heart murder. Why would you ever want to plead to depraved-hear murder? Well, because it has a range of punishment of 10 years in The Department of Corrections, and a maximum of life. Therefore, we have something to work with. So, oftentimes cases are negotiated down from murder one to murder two. Also, giving a jury an opportunity to convict you of murder two, as opposed to murder one, if the facts fit the crime. And not all facts fit murder two. It’s very, very specific. And it’s case law driven, and it’s very fact specific. It’s something that you need to sit down with your Oklahoma murder defense lawyer, and talk to them about it. The second type of second degree murder is murder in the second degree felony murder. These are different that felony murder in the first degree. Felony murder in the first degree have the specific crimes enumerated that tell us exactly what crimes would give rise to murder in the first degree. And they’re the big ones that you would think: armed robbery, rape in the first degree, bank robbery, where you’re engaged in behavior that is so inherently dangerous that you should able to foresee something going wrong. That list includes distribution of CDS. A drug deal gone bad, and somebody dies, that gives rise to felony murder in the first degree. Any other felony, that is not enumerated in the Oklahoma statutes, meaning it is not listed out specifically in law, but if the person is accused of being engaged in any one of the other felonies, and a homicide occurs as a result thereof, you could be looking at murder in the second degree felony murder. There’s funny things about murder. The sound, the word, always drives home a very different feeling to the listener than any other charge. Many lawyers find themselves a little intimidated by taking on a murder case, because the stakes are so high. People who are charged with murder feel like it’s a greater challenge to defeat, because, again the stakes are so high. But, even more importantly, the risks are very, very high. That’s why it’s important that you find someone who has experience in defending these cases. Experience in not only defending them in front of a jury, and successfully. But, you need to find someone who is experienced in negotiating murder cases for the purposes of a plea agreement. And what does that look like? You know? When we take away the overlying fear that someone is dead, and that someone is facing life in prison, it’s just a simple assault and battery with a dangerous case. You don’t have a complaining witness, obviously. But, that witness is simply replaced with a medical examiner, and a medical examiner’s report. So, the challenge in sorting it out for the purposes of going to trial, should not be so great. I understand why it is, but we’ve tried a lot of those cases and we’re incredibly successful in it. It’s not so intimidating that an experienced criminal defense lawyer can’t take it on. One of the other things that people concern themselves with murder cases, is this idea that jurors, as well as law enforcement and the community, believe that if someone’s dead, somebody must pay. And that’s a very sad reality. I think that is a natural inclination for people to look at these cases and say, “Well, this life ended - short of it’s natural expiration. And someone should have to pay the consequences for that.” And maybe on a morality basis that’s true. But, I don’t believe that’s true legally. And so, it’s o

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford. And we are talking this week about sex offender registration. It’s part of the important things you have to consider when you're charged with sex offenses in Oklahoma. Is whether or not you're going to have to register. How long you have to register. And what are some of the constraints within that. registration I'm joined here today with my friend, mentor and law partner Mr. Jack Dempsey Pointer. Jack literally wrote the book on sex offender registration in Oklahoma. He is a go to expert in the field. Lawyers, prosecutors, judges alike rely on his expertise in understanding the sex offender registration act and how it is applied to offenders within the state. So, thanks for joining us Jack. Jack Dempsey Pointer, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Miss Ford, thank you very much for your solicitous remarks concerning me. I appreciate that very much. But I’m still going to be a little bit hesitant to talk about some of this. JF: Okay. JDP: Simply, because it’s so fact intensive – literally fact intensive. I had an individual call me about sex offender registration. The man was a Kansas resident. This is out in the panhandle He was a Kansas resident who was convicted of a sex crime in Oklahoma. He then moved, he didn’t move, he just went back to Kansas on probation. And he had to register in Kansas. There are some provisions, I don’t know all the particulars because the attorney’s not coming in until next week. But apparently there are some provisions in the Kansas registration scheme would allow him to get off of sex offender registration. That’s an unusual situation. You’re convicted in one state requiring registration – a crime that requires registration. And you’re serving your registration period in another state that has different provisions. It almost sounds like a law school quiz. But, it basically is. But that remains to be seen. One of the important things, and the reason I’m kind of hesitant to talk about in any specifics, is simply because the law is written so, and has been amended so many times. I can give you just a perfect example. Before April 26, 2004, and individual had to register 10 years from the date of the conviction. After April 26, he had to register 10 years from the date of completion of the sentence. Now, that’s kind of important because the completion of the sentence, for instance, if a guy got 20 years suspended sentence, he doesn’t complete the sentence until 20 years after his JF: Conviction date. JDP: Yeah, after his conviction has expired. And, so, the guy would have to register 10 years after that. That’s a total period of 30 years, as compared to 10 years. JF: And the laws just continue to get worse, it seems like. Each year, more and more crimes are registerable offenses. The Department of Corrections has their own administrative policies. And the legislation really isn’t, at this time, geared towards limiting the amount of registration. Or giving any relief to the offenders. It’s more geared up towards making people register longer, and limiting rights and options of offenders for longer periods of time. And with it being ever-changing, that’s why it’s so important that we find criminal defense lawyers that are qualified in defending sexual offense crimes, and can and understand and explain this to folks. Because it’s complicated. JDP: A qualified attorney in sex offender defense, or sex offender cases, is a critical decision. You’re not going to open up the phone book, or get on the internet, or anything like that, and find somebody who says, “Hey, I’m a sexual defense attorney.” We can’t say specialization in Oklahoma, but a lot of us are. But finding somebody qualified to represent you in a sex charge is important because if there’s a conviction, then sex offender registration comes to the forefront immediately. And not only does if affect where you live. It also affects how you can go to school, church, the things of that nature. JF: It affects the romantic relationships that you’re allowed to be in. It affects the internet use, and computer use. JDP: And who can live in your house. Okay? In another words, if one of the victims of your act of, lewd molestation or something like that, if one of your children is the victim, you can’t live in the house. If you can’t move the kid out, you can’t live in the house. However, grandchildren, step-children, so-on and so-forth, it they were not victims of the crime – that’s okay. Because, in this day and time of blended marriages and divorce and all that kind of good stuff, you get a lot of questions about that. But back to this qualified attorney to represent you in sex offense charges. That individual will, if they don’t know the specifics of sex offender registration, and quite frankly, if they do I’d shocked. Because it’s an entire statute, of 10 or 12 statutes, that are constantly being amended, and also amended by court cases. They at least know to pick up the phone and call somebody like me who knows something about this stuff to answer these questions. Because the judge is supposed to, at the time of sentencing, designate this individual that was convicted, whether it be a jury or plea or whatever, a level, an offense level for registering. And that’s very important. Because in the state of Oklahoma there are three levels. Number one, two, and three. The Oklahoma Department of Corrections has set forth those levels in their regulations. And very few people know how to get to those sites, too. But, you know, the first level is like 20 years. You also, in the state of Oklahoma, can commit a first offense, and actually be designated as a habitual or aggravated sex offender. Which means that you got to register for life. Registration for life means just that. Life. No relief whatsoever. We’ll talk about relief in a little while. But when you’re talking about committing the following acts as a first offense, to become habitual sex offender you got to have a second conviction of a sex crime from any particular date. Or, you enter the state of Oklahoma after 1997 and been convicted of additional sex crimes. They declare you a habitual sex offender, and you register for life. An aggravated sex offender, and this is the one people worry most about. If you commit the crime, the first crime, just the first time (child sex abuse, incest, forcible sodomy, rape one or two, lewd acts with a child, and then rape by instrumentation, or the person was a victim in custody of a school or state institution, etc.) you’re declared an aggravated sex offender and you must register for life. Period. Law enforcement shall notify the family of the offender, the victim of the offender, neighbors, churches, parks, schools, convenience stores, businesses, and other places kids may hang out, nursing, residential, assisted living, and adult day care centers that there’s a habitual or aggravated sex offender living in the neighborhood. Or living in a town. There’s no limit on what they can do. JF: There’s really no hiding from this. JDP: None. JF: So, let’s talk a little bit about how you find yourself getting on the sex offender registration. If you don’t want to be a registered sex offender, it’s real easy to say, “Don’t commit a sex crime.” Right? JDP: Yes. JF: But how is it we find ourselves on the sex offender registration, and what does registration really mean? What does it mean to have to register as a sex offender? JDP: Well, to register as a sex offender, it kind of depends on where you live. In metropolitan areas Oklahoma City, Tulsa, probably Lawton, and maybe of the larger towns, they have sex offender registration units, of those police departments. I think maybe even Canadian County, El Reno has one. You have to go over there, and within three days of moving into the county, or within three days of being convicted, and actually sit down, go make an appointment, find out where it’s at, go sit down, and fill out the information – where you live, social security number, so-on and so-forth, and all that good stuff – and register. The registration requirements depend on what the crime was, how long you’re on registration for, and things of that nature. I mean, there is a Department of Corrections sex offender registration which writes the rules and regulations. But at a local level, you actually sit down to do that. JF: And how many times do you have to that? Do you just do it one time? JDP: You do that one time. Unless, if you move to, say Oklahoma City to Guthrie, you got to go register with the local police department. And the police department’s probably going to send you over to the sheriff’s department. Okay? Fill out the same paper work. So-on and so-forth. Do you have a DOC number? Even though you have not been in prison, you still have a DOC number in the sex offender registration unit. They’ll pull you up, and they say, “Okay. You got to register like this.” The worst kind of sex offender registration is the habitual and the aggravated. You got to, like, every 90 days go in and say, “I live here. I still live there.” You verify and so-on and so-forth like that, for the rest of your life. JF: Are you subject to interrogation or questioning from law enforcement while you’re registering? JDP: It really depends on who you’re involved with. The Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals held years, and years and years ago, that when the Department of Corrections had a sex offender unit, and a sex offender treatment plan, that you could not refuse to say, “Hey, I did it.’ Some of the people that went were in prison. They said they we’re wrongfully accused, along with wrongfully convicted. And they were back in there for the sex offender, and they refused to say, “I did it.” Well, at that point in time they were kicked out of the program. Well, one person didn’t like that so he took it to the Oklahoma Court of Crims. And the Oklahoma Court of Criminal appeals said, “Oh, no. You don’t have to admit to it. All you do, is you just go in and do the program and so-on and so-forth.” JF: Acknowledge that you we’re convicted of it without having to admit guilt. JDP: That program no longer exists – state

  Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and today we are going to talk about sex. Specifically, being accused of sex crimes cases in the state of Oklahoma. The first, and most important, piece of advice that I have to give you, and if you hear nothing else in this entire podcast or series of podcasts dealing with sex crimes cases in Oklahoma, hear this: Do not talk to the law enforcement. Most times when people are charged with this, our natural inclination, especially if we're innocent, is to defend ourselves. It is really imperative that you understand that law enforcement are not your friends. They are not asking you questions in order to clear you of these allegations. They are trained to take your words out of context, and use them against you in the future. So, the first and most important thing is, stop talking to the police. Sex crimes allegations gives some extra kinds of concerns that most other cases don't really have. A lot of times, especially if we are falsely accused we want to talk to people about it, about, "How do I get out of this?" And so, we go to our safe places. We talk to our counselor or our psychiatrist, some of us share this information with our preacher, or our friends in the church community. Maybe you know someone at DHS? Or, DHS is the one who's come to you with these kinds of allegations, and they just want to hear your side of the story? You cannot talk to these folks. You can't talk to your primary physician. You can't talk to anybody. You really can't even talk to your wife, your mother, your father, or your kids. And this is why: in Oklahoma these people are deemed mandatory reporters. If these allegations include a minor, which means anyone under the age of 18, even if they're 17-years old, even if you're innocent, even if she consented to the act, they are children. And Oklahoma law requires that these people in power (law enforcement, DHS, doctors, including doctors at the emergency room, your counselors and your preacher) all of these people, with cops as the exception, all of these people kind of have a fundamental confidentiality with you. We protect your communications with your preacher. We protect your communications with your doctor. Often times, the law will even provide a privilege for talking about things with your wife or your husband. But in Oklahoma, these people are called mandatory reporters, which means if they hear that there's an allegation, or they have a suspicion, that a child has been the victim of any kind of abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, if those children have been exposed to things that are outside of what the reported person believes to be community standards, they are obligated under law, not they "can" report you, they are obligated to report you. And their failure to so will put them at risk of being charged criminally. So, all of the places that we generally go to as a safe place are no longer safe when we're being accused of a crime against children or a crime involving sex. With that said, who can you talk to? You have to find a lawyer. The attorney-client privilege that attaches is sacred, and we are not mandatory reporters. You can come into my office and admit that you did every single thing that they said that you did, and I cannot report that. And I will not report it. My ethical obligations as an attorney prohibit me violating that confidence. And I am not a mandatory reporter. So, how do you figure out who to talk to? Well, you don't just want to talk any lawyer. You want to find the lawyer that has experience in sex crimes cases. You have to find an Oklahoma City sex crimes defense lawyer. How do you know if they're sex crimes defense lawyers? Well, we're not allowed to specialize. I can't put on my website, or on my business card, or on a billboard, that I specialize in sex crimes, that I specialize in defending folks accused of crimes against children, or crimes involving sexual acts. My ethical obligations prohibit me from doing that. So how do you figure out whether or not the person you're talking to is experienced enough, and qualified to handle these kinds of allegations? You have a duty and an obligation to yourself to interview those lawyers. The lawyer that you chose, this is as important to you in this matter as the doctor you would choose if you had a brain tumor. You are quite literally putting your life in their hands. It is their honor to represent you. You should not be honored to have them represent you. That's not how this works. So, take advantage of your free consultation. Most lawyers offer them. I certainly do. Come in and interview me. Ask me about my experience. Ask me how many cases I've taken like this to trial. Ask me if I have to go to trial in these cases. Because I'm going to tell you as an experienced criminal defense lawyer who does a lot of work dealing in sex crimes: these cases don't have to go to trial. We have a lot of tools at our disposal that we can help you through this process. And each case is so fact-specific that you really have to get in and visit with me, and you have to do it sooner, rather than later. If you know you're being accused you cannot let fear, shame, or embarrassment stop you from picking up the phone. With most of my clients charged in these things, often times they are falsely accused. And they report to us that picking up the phone and asking for help in this regard was one of the hardest things they ever had to do. And I understand that. It's embarrassing. Even if we did nothing wrong, our reputation has been damaged in the community, and we are afraid that people are judging us. What you'll find here is that you walk into this door with no judgment. You will not be judged. You will not be shamed. You will not be made to be in fear of what's going to happen. You're going to walk into this door, and be welcomed by me and my staff who are equipped and experienced in dealing with these kinds of cases. We understand the emotional turmoil that it puts on you, and you families, and your employers, and the people in your community. This does not just affect the accused. It is a wide-reaching, damaging accusation, and you have to have people who are prepared to defend you, not just in a courtroom, but with those other people in your lives. We know how to do that. Most lawyers that don't practice in this area don't know how to do that. These accusations are very different than any other kind of accusation. It's not like you've been accused of DUI, wherein everybody we know has been arrested for DUI at least once. Most people know somebody who's been through the criminal justice system on a simple possession of marijuana charge. Or, even a domestic violence, wherein they got into a scuffle at home. These cases are very, very different. And you have to go somewhere where they understand the nuances of what's going on in sex crimes litigation. Every district attorney's office has lawyers that are skilled and trained to prosecute sex crimes, specifically. In Oklahoma County they have an entire division of their district attorney's office dedicated to what they call the Special Victims Unit. We know that society looks at these cases differently. We know because Law & Order has an entire series dedicated simply to the Special Victims Unit. Where this show's been on the air for years. We do not have a Law & Order that deals with the Domestic Violence Unit, or the DUI Unit. That's because these cases are different than every other case. And you have to interview the lawyers to find out in a position to trust them to take your life and your family’s life future in their hands. Once you find that criminal defense lawyer, and you've hired them, the most important advice I can give to is you must be brutally honest. Many times we want to defend ourselves, or withhold information because we think it makes us look bad. Often times, when we're falsely accused of sex crimes it's because we've done something wrong to somebody. Not necessarily raped them, or violated them in any way, but if they're putting that false allegation on you it's because you've hurt them in some way. We don't want to acknowledge our own wrongdoings. But it's important when you sit down with me, and I ask you, "What happened?" That your honesty is unmatched to anywhere else you've ever been. And it kind of goes against most of what we've learned. Most of the time defense lawyers tell you to shut your mouth. “We don't want to hear the details. The details will make it harder for us to defend you.” In sex crimes cases the devil is in the details. The only way you will be freed from these allegations, and not have the stigma riding with you for the rest of your life, is if you are brutally honest with me. You have to tell me everything. And you can't bank on me being smart enough to ask you all the right questions. So, prepare yourself to come into that room, and really expose your soul. It's important because it's the only way I have to defend you. If we start building a defense based upon on a lack of truthfulness, or not having the whole story, that can really blow up in our face quicker in a sex-crimes case than anywhere else. Remembering that that confidentiality that you have with an attorney-client is sacred. We've engaged in an oath to Oklahoma Bar Association, that says if we violate that confidentiality, they can take away my license to practice law. I will not ever violate that privilege. Any information that is shared within this office can only be repeated with your permission. So, you will be instrumental in building your own defense. Therefore, we have to start out this process open, and honest, and with a free-line of communication. It's the only way that we can really help you. Holding back from me is only going to hurt you in the future. So, the first thing you have to know is stop talking. Do not engage in any interview with anyone that is asking you questions that sound like you're being investigated. You ask whoever's asking you, "Am I a suspect? Am I free to leave?" And if the answer is, "You're free to leave." Then you kindly thank them for their time, a

Jacqui Ford, Jacquelyn Ford Law, P.C.: Welcome to Your Best Defense podcast. My name is Jacqui Ford, and I am your Oklahoma sex crimes defense lawyer. We're working on a series this week about defending sex crimes in Oklahoma. This podcast is going to talk about the defenses. And, quite frankly, if you've been accused of rape, you only have one of two defenses. Number one: "it wasn't me." Or, two: "it wasn't rape." In 2016, with the technological advances that we have, the defense of "It wasn't me" is almost obsolete. Law enforcement has abilities to identify the offender better now than they ever could before. So, and it's also very uncommon that rape allegations come from a "stranger" event. More times than you would imagine, these allegations come based upon someone that you knew. You know them either socially, they are someway affiliated with you or your friends or family. Or, oftentimes, they are, in fact, the people that we love the most - our children, our girlfriends, our friends. , So, this podcast we're going to talk about, "What do we do?" We're not going to spend a whole of time on the defense of "it wasn't me" for those reasons. We can prove it up with our DNA mostA of the time. Those aren't the cases that generally get litigated. The cases we see 9 times out of 10 is, "I'm falsely accused." And if you're falsely accused, how do you defend yourself? The problem with these cases, and there are lot's of problems with these cases, but a big one is the allegation tends to be something that takes place in private. Prosecutors oftentimes preach to jurors that it's hard for them to prove these cases because rape is a private act that happens in the dark corners of society. If you're guilty of rape, that's probably true. But. what if you're falsely accused of rape? Many people are falsely accused of rape in this country. Although, rape is oftentimes been described as one of the most underreported crimes. I'm here to tell you it is one of the most falsely reported crimes. And it's incredibly hard to defend because we're dealing with a "he said/she said" scenario. And most of the times, even in false allegations, the accuser isn't saying this happened in a room full of people with a bunch of witness. So, you can't call folks in and say, "I was there. Billy didn't rape Susie. I saw everything." So, now it's just a matter of what she said versus what you can prove. And this causes a lot of problems in defending these cases. Because, number one, you have a right to remain silent. You are not compelled to take the stand in your own defense. It is my belief that if we can avoid a criminal defendant mounting the stand, we should do so at all costs. There is nothing more uncomfortable than sitting in a witness chair and being subjected to cross examination. As a criminal defense lawyer, I have sat in that chair, and I have been subject to cross examination by very skilled lawyers, who are there and designed and trained to ask loaded questions and leading questions. And it's a very uncomfortable place to be. It's a dangerous place for a defendant to sit. If I can avoid you from having to take that stand to defend yourself, that's going to be my goal. So, how do we do that? How do we defend against the false allegations? In this country we have this idea that you are innocent until proven guilty. Although, fundamentally, I think that is not a reality in practice. When it comes to sex crimes defenses, it's even less of a reality. A person accused of rape, or child molestation, or anything sounding in sexual abuse starts the game way far behind the starting line. People are not generally inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt. And I know this because I've practiced this in social settings. You can go into a barroom full of people, and ask them for your attention for a moment, and just ask them questions. And you can say, "Can anybody in this room find a reason why you might be justified in killing somebody?" And hands will just pop up all over the place. People can justify murder. "I was defending myself." "I was defending my family." "It was an accident." There are lots of ways we can get there. My favorite defense in murder cases often times is, "The son a bitch had it coming." But in sex crimes cases that’s not where we're at. In no setting that I've ever conducted this little, mini-experiment, has no person ever raised their hand and were able to justify forcing yourself upon a woman. At no time have I ever had a juror raise their hand and say, "Yeah, I can understand why he might have raped her, and that be okay.” Sex is very taboo in this country. It's even more taboo in Oklahoma. We reside in Bible Belt. It's not something we're supposed to talk about. Even though most of us enjoy it, it's not something we're generally supposed to enjoy. So, to talk about it openly and freely in a room full of strangers is almost impossible. And as you listen to some of our future podcasts, you'll hear how lawyers struggle with talking to jurors about these things. But you and I have to talk about it when we're defending you if you've been accused of such a horrid crime. You have to understand that you do not sit there and bear the presumption of innocence. It's very unlikely that anyone is going to be willing to help you, or let you off the hook. So, what does that mean? Although the law doesn't say you have to prove yourself innocent. In practice, we're pretty much riddled with that burden. We have to present evidence to the jury that will make them disbelieve the accuser. They have to, not only disbelieve what she is saying, but like you well enough to let you off the hook. And that's a terrible, terrible place to sit as an innocent person falsely accused of a crime. How do we prove a negative? How do we prove a negative without you having to mount that stand in your own defense There are a number of ways. When you have gone to the trouble of interviewing lawyers, and have come to an experienced Oklahoma criminal defense lawyer who has been qualified, by your standards, to represent you in such a specialized kind of case, part of our job is to not only get your version of events. But figure out where the truth lies, and why this accuser would lie against you. Why would someone make up such a horrible story, and put it on somebody else? What must you have done to deserve this kind of accusation? These are the questions the jurors have. And part of our job is to be able to figure out that motive, and be able to present that story to the jury so they can not only allow you to go home and acquit you, but they also don't have to make a personal judgment against the accuser. And that's really important. It's really easy to imagine being angry at the person who pointed the finger and lied against someone in this way. We can go in there as criminal defense lawyers and attack her, and bully her, and get all of her different versions of events, and make her explain to this jury why she can't tell the same story twice. But it's my professional experience that jurors don't much like it when criminal defense lawyers get up attack the "victim". Even when you and I know she's not the victim of anything. The prosecution’s going to call her a victim. The cops will call her a victim. And the judge, against all of my objections, will likely refer to this woman as a victim. And nobody likes to be part of re-victimizing a victim. So, what do we do? Our job is to figure out what is her motive to lie. And we'll work together on that to figure out what it is. She's probably never going to mount the stand and admit it.   So, before we get to what are some possible defenses. I want to talk just real briefly about what is not a defense to rape. In a situation where you're engaged in sexual activity with a minor who has not reached the age of consent, consent is not a defense. It gets rather complicated dealing with Oklahoma law - who can't can consent to whom, to what, and when. But let's just assume for the purposes of podcasting that the accused is 25-years-old, and he's engaged in some sort of sexual activity with someone who he finds later to be a minor. And a minor simply means under the age of 18. If the law does not permit this person to consent, it matters not how much she asked for it. It matters not how much she wanted it. Or, if she was the instigator. You can have it on video, of her dancing, and jumping around, and being more than excited. If she is not of the lawful age to consent, consent is not a defense. This is called strict liability. In Oklahoma, many of our sex crimes cases fall under this term of strict liability - which means she was either old enough, or she wasn't. A good example, of what I've seen on numerous occasions, is a man meets a woman in a bar. In Oklahoma, in order to be in a bar, she must be 21-years of age. And let's say your sitting at there at the bar when she walks in. And she walks up and orders her first drink. The bartender gives her, or asks her for her ID. She passes an ID over to him, looks at it, confirms that she's 21-years of age or older, and proceeds to serve her alcoholic beverages. Fast-forward a couple of drinks later, and maybe you've mustered up the courage to go visit with this pretty, young lady. In fact, she looks kind of young to you, and you just want to protect yourself, and make sure that she is who she says she is. And you ask to see her ID. Her ID indicates that she's 21-years or older. It's got her address, and it looks quite legitimate. One thing leads to another, and you find yourself engaged in intimate activities later on in the evening. And you take her home the next day, and drop her off at mommy and daddy's house. Mom and dad find out what happened. Look at you and seeing the graying in your beard, or whatever, that indicates to them that you are much older than her, and they call the police. They've got your tag number, they've got her phone, and of course, they've shamed her into telling them everything about it. You're drug into law enforcement, and you're being asked questions. And you say, "But she had an ID that said she was 21. The bartender was serving drinks. I relied upon that." When

JDP: And always remember this. In this country, the US Supreme Court has said a man’s home is his castle; you cannot get into that castle without a search warrant. JF: Now, come on, Jack. If you’re not guilty and you didn’t do anything wrong, only a guilty person wouldn’t let them in and only a guilty person would ask for a lawyer. JDP: That’s why we have to be very careful in the selection of our jurors, Ms. Ford. Because we don’t want to have a juror on our panel that thinks like that, because in this country, our constitution says you are presumed innocent until found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of your peers. JF: So it matters not what the agent at the door says or thinks or threatens; you should exercise those rights so that you can best protect yourself. JDP: That’s correct. If you let that agent cross that threshold, he could go anywhere in that house he wants to go. It’s a little tough to revoke your permission for him to go in when he’s got a badge and a gun. And he just kind of wanders around and looks in all of your stuff, and you think, “Well, he can’t do that.” But yeah, he can. You let him in. Don’t let him cross that threshold. You come outside and talk to him. They’re looking for evidence. And why are they talking to you? They want you to confess or tell them somebody is doing another crime or something like that. They’re very adept at their jobs. JF: And they’re nice guys; they’re not mean guys. JDP: Oh, they’ve got kids and dogs and houses and lawns and lawnmowers and a whole routine. They’re all nice guys. Some of these guys are my best friends. But if he thought I was doing something, if he sat down to have a conversation with me, then you always have to say, “Is this conversation for the record?” JF: It’s always for the record with the feds, right Jack? JDP: That’s exactly right. And it’s always for the record when you talk to a police officer. “Officer, I only had one beer,” and the officer says, “Yes, I can smell not very heavy alcohol on your breath. By the way, do you take those oxycontin for pain?” “I certainly do; my back is killing me.” “When’s the last time you had an oxycontin?” “I’ve had four today.” “Sir, you’re under the influence of drugs.” Be careful. They’re your friends until… Okay, now, if I have a problem and I need someone who makes a quick decision and takes no prisoners, I’m not calling a defense attorney. I call a cop. I want it done. “Help me, brother.” I have tremendous respect for our law enforcement guys in the field. JF: I do, too. JDP: But anyway, back to federal criminal defense at your arraignment. If you’re indicted by a jury of 16-23 people, you do not have a right to have a preliminary hearing. You do have a right to have a hearing for detention. Will you be detained or not? That judgment call is usually by a United States Attorney who says, “I want him to be detained; he’s a flight risk, and he is therefore a danger to the community.” You must always know what to do, and that’s why it’s important to have an experienced Oklahoma City Criminal Defense Attorney in federal matters like Ms. Ford and myself. It’s critical that you have somebody who knows which stage the proceeding is and what law is involved—how the procedure works. I can assure you within the sound of my voice, in Oklahoma, there are probably not more than a dozen experienced federal criminal defense attorneys. It’s just a field of endeavor that a lot of people don’t like to do. Maybe because of the 70-Day Rule. When they file their indictment, they’re ready to go to trial. JF: Well, and you have to have a trial lawyer, too, because there’s no such thing as a plea agreement in federal court, right? JDP: All plea agreements are blind. JF: Which means the judge is making decisions. Litigation is going to happen. Whether you’ve agreed and admitted your guilt or not, you still have to argue to the court, so you have to be with a lawyer who is experienced in the courtroom, who is able and willing to stand up to the federal court judge or to a jury because you don’t get to agree to a deferred, and everybody goes home, and everybody goes on about their business. This not state court, so at every proceeding, you have to have someone who is ready, willing, and able to put 12 in a box. That’s why a trial lawyer is what you’re looking for. JDP: A federal trial lawyer. There are a lot of good state trial lawyers, but they don’t come to federal court. Two reasons, it’s a rocket docket, and you’ve got to be prepared—you can’t take the time reading through Title 18 and see what the federal rules are and all of that; you have to know that stuff. JF: You’ve got to know it and be ready to go on the fly. JDP: That’s exactly right. JF: That’s why I’m so glad I have you, Jack. I get to piggyback on the back of your 45 years of experience and have the benefit of learning about those sentencing guidelines from the best of the best. JDP: Oh, those sentencing guidelines. You know, I actually was—that was in 1984, and I don’t even think you were born, then, were you? JF: I was born in ’84. I’m not going to tell you how old I was then, but I was born. JDP: Well, I was trying a case. JF: I was not even in school. JDP: That’s kind of what I figured. Well, when the sentencing guidelines were passed by Congress, and everybody was going, “Oh my gosh!” You know how government likes charts and menus. JF: Oh, their demonstrative aids and towers of power! JDP: And they go down through here, and it says this over part I and part B—that’s what the sentencing guidelines are. They were passed in 1984, they were ruled constitutional by the United States Supreme Court in 1987, and in the year 2003, the United States Supreme Court found the United States sentencing guidelines were no longer mandatory, but were advisory. And it gave the judges back the ability to look at a certain defendant who’s already paid back a couple of hundred thousands of dollars in a bank embezzlement case—no harm, no foul—and what a waste of time it is to put this guy in jail to the tune of $3,800 a year. Let’s just put him on probation, make sure he does all of these things, and when he finishes his probation, “Thank you very much. You can become a citizen.” Unfortunately, he’s already a convicted felon, but you can’t play—particularly when you get caught in a federally-insured bank. It’s very important—I cannot emphasize the experience of a federal criminal defense attorney such as Ms. Ford or myself. Federal criminal defense is no place to have training wheels on; it’s impossible. It’s the wrong place. Too much is involved. The crimes and penalties are too draconian. Right now, the emphasis is on human trafficking, a deplorable crime. We’ve handled some human trafficking cases. JF: Yes, we have. JDP: Before that, it was the HIDTA—high impact drug enforcement—that basically worked with methamphetamine. They were after that. Before that, it was the section 924©. Guns. A convicted felon in Oklahoma can possess a long rifle for hunting purposes. Shotgun or rifle. JF: That’s the state law. JDP: That’s the State of Oklahoma law. You can’t have any pistols. A convicted felon under the federal system cannot even possess ammunition. No gun involved, just ammunition. JF: So not only is the punishment sometimes harsher, the procedure sometimes harsher, but also the constitutional rights you walk away from are much greater than what you might see in state court. And that’s another reason there’s such a difference between a state court lawyer and a federal criminal defense lawyer. JDP: I get a kick of these people who say, “Oh, he got off on a technicality.” Very few people realize these technicalities are fundamental rights. They are constitutional protections that were given to us over 200 years. “Here, they can’t have a warrant until they come into your house. And it’s got to be issued by an impartial magistrate upon probable cause. We’re not going to let you cross that man’s threshold at all.” That works for the feds as much as it does for the state. And it’s more important than people understand—their constitutional rights are granted to them in federal courts in bigger portions than in state court. And I’m not saying that state court doesn’t care about them; it’s just the volume of people who are charged in state court. Ms. Ford, how many times have I told you what the conviction is for a federal criminal defendant? JF: Several times. JDP: And what would that number be? JF: 98% JDP: 98% of the people charged across the United State; 98% are convicted. What have I told you about the 2%? JF: There aren’t very many of them around. JDP: And what is the 2% club? JF: Those who have received an acquittal in federal court. It is a badge of honor. JDP: Ms. Ford, you and I are in that category, aren’t we? JF: Yes, sir. We are. We’ve had a lot of good luck in federal court. JDP: Nobody understands the 98% and the 2% club because people just go merrily on their way, going to the movies, and they’re in theaters, and at concerts, and this, that, and the other. And they never think about the federal government. Ms. Ford, do you know what the federal government did—they told you when to get up this morning? JF: Apparently they did, Jack. Tell us why the federal government told me when to get up this morning. JDP: Did you ever hear of Daylight Savings Time? JF: I have. JDP: And who established that? JF: Is that the feds? JDP: That’s correct! And, Ms. Ford, when you go to the ladies’ room, do you know the federal government tells where you can go to the ladies’ room? JF: Man, I haven’t ever thought of the feds when I was in the ladies’ room, but tell me how they control that, too, Jack. JDP: Did you ever hear of the EPA? JF: Yes, sir. JDP: And have you ever looked at your water bill at your home or apartment where it says, “Unfunded federal mandate.” JF: I’ve always wondered what that fee was. JDP: Basically what that is is the federal government