60 minutes | Feb 15th 2021

Breaking Down QAnon

In this extended episode of Wine, Women, and Revolution, Heather is joined by Christian Perez to talk Qanon and other conspiracy theories. Who are they? How did the come to cause so much chaos? And where are they going under a Biden presidency. They repeat patterns of conspiracy theories that are centuries old, but have capitalized on social media and modern technology to spread their dangerous thinking. Transcript auto generated Christian Perez 0:00If you re still a Trumper or are you still adhering to Q anon, probably not that big of a critical thinker. So if they don’t disappear they’ll just morph into something else they’ll become something else. Heather Warburton 0:16This is Wine, Women and Revolution with your host, Heather Warburton. Hi, and welcome to Wine, Women and Revolution. I’m your host, Heather Warburton coming at you here on Create Your Future Productions. You can find us online at www.YourFutureCreator.com. Follow us on all the social medias and get us wherever you get your podcasts from. Tonight I’m welcoming back a friend. He’s been on my show. God probably this is like fourth or fifth time, I think. And I always love having him on the show. Christian Perez welcome back. Christian Perez 0:49Thanks for having me. Heather. Glad to be back. Heather Warburton 0:52So you are my man on conspiracy theories. And the reason I wanted to have you back tonight is because it feels like conspiracy theorists are just getting more and more prevalent, or at least more and more people seem to be falling victim to conspiracy theories. And I saw somebody I pulled up to Walgreens the other day in my little town that I live in this, you know, cute, quaint little South Jersey town, and somebody had a Qanon bumper sticker. So I’m walking around Walgreens like, well, who’s the crazy person in here? And it’s just so weird. People used to hide the fact that they were like crazy conspiracy theorists and Christian Perez 1:31Now they put it on their bumpers. Heather Warburton 1:32Right? Am I wrong in thinking that it’s more prevalent now? Christian Perez 1:36No, I mean, I would say it’s definitely more prevalent. conspiracy theories have always been around, you know, since the beginning of time since the beginning of modern history. You know, you can go back to the Middle Ages. But I think now, with the rise of the Internet with, you know, the election of Barack Obama in 2008, there’s definitely been a rise in conspiracy theories when it comes to social media, when it comes to the internet. Conspiracy theories are now more than ever able to spread, proliferate, change, evolve, mutate, I guess. They’re definitely more prevalent today. We have an emboldened Republican Party headed by President Trump and any number of his his followers that now we see post election , an election that they’ve clearly lost still pushing this conspiracy theory that that the election was rigged, that there’s some kind of movement against them. And you know, it’s not going to stop, these people aren’t going to go away. And I think Trump has shown a, you know, a playbook almost for future conspiracy theorists or future megalomaniacs who want to rise to power, all you got to do is lie, the media will have no idea how to cover you will give you all kinds of free publicity. And you could make your way into power. So I think you’re absolutely accurate and thinking that they’re more prevalent today because they are. Heather Warburton 2:57And even in communities like that you would not expect conspiracy theories and fascist thinking to be prevalent, like I learned from a friend who teaches yoga that she can’t even go to yoga retreats anymore, because conspiracy theorists are taking over new age groups, yoga groups, all these enlightenment groups that you would think would be nice places have become vile place. Christian Perez 3:20The problem is a lot of that stuff like like yoga. Like I’m not gonna diss yoga, right, yoga is good. In terms of athleticism ,stretching, but when, you know, like some white woman or some white guy is trying to get deep into like, Eastern philosophy that they don’t understand. It’s like stick to the stretching aspect. Leave the philosophical aspect to some some religious leader. But yeah, I mean, if it’s martial arts culture, one of the things that bridges Brazilian and American martial arts culture is conservative politics. One of the major families in Brazilian jujitsu, the family that invented the Gracie family of Brazil, they’re an extremely conservative family. And it’s, it’s all throughout health, culture, fitness, culture, and wellness culture, a lot of wellness culture is, you know, I’m gonna I’m gonna upset a lot of people, a lot of it is based in pseudoscience. And, you know, silly thinking people think about chi and an energy. It’s like, can you even people even define energy, like, this isn’t a movie where people are throwing, you know, magic fireballs at people. That’s, not a thing that doesn’t exist. So, as I’ve said, in the past, when people already have beliefs that are pseudo scientific or conspiratorial, it’s not hard for someone else to come along and piggyback on those beliefs. So if you already don’t trust, an admittedly shady pharmaceutical industry, if you already don’t trust, an admittedly shady federal government, state government and so on and so forth, if you already have maybe, you know, some kind of fears of pedophiles running around, it’s not hard for you know, some some Q believer to come in and spread these conspiracy theories and we also have to understand these aren’t always true believers and zealots that are spreading these conspiracy theories. It’s having a conversation. Well, you know, I was at dinner the other week, and I heard from my cousin, and he said, X, Y and Z that you know that there’s government pedophiles. It’s not like there’s true believers in every single one of these groups, but all it takes is two or three of these ideas to spread into a group. And then and then they just, they just mutate a conspiracy theories like a virus, and that’s what it’s going to do. And when you prey on, you know, people in yoga groups in jujitsu culture and martial arts, culture and health culture, you know, they might, they might, I don’t know how to put it, like, if they’re already leaning towards these beliefs, it’s not hard for someone else to just just come in and, and sway their thinking, if you think chi is real, and there’s like magic inside of you, it doesn’t take much for other people to prey on that, that belief of magic. So when it comes to Q anon and like, you know, fear of government conspiracies are preying upon children, you take a young mother or a young father, who isn’t that much of a critical thinker, it’s not hard to sway them, sway them sway their opinion, sway their, you know, their thinking, and,, you know, and that’s what conspiracy theorists do. They they prey on people’s fears and insecurities. Heather Warburton 6:14And the next thing, you know, a yoga group is all of a sudden, becoming fascists or proto fascist and thing like it. Christian Perez 6:21I wouldn’t even call them fascist or proto fascist, they just become like, like, fascist adjacent or fascist sympathetic, and it’s like, you know, these aren’t people that are going to be sig heiling, but kick the can down the road, they have now become more susceptible to bad ideas. I mean, I gave an interview not long ago, and I talked about how, like, we talked about this fear of pedophilia, and in the 80s, they had the satanic panic that like, you know, there were these these devil, these devil worshipping pedophiles, that were preying upon children in and daycare centers, and this was the era of Dungeons and Dragons, and heavy metal music, which are Satanists and whatever. And it was, and America was ripe for that. Because in the 1960s, and you’re gonna love this because, you know, I, we’re both we’re both dirty dirty communists, and the 1960s, as women were getting jobs, right, the conservatives were freaking out. And what they what they charged, was that daycare was a communist plot, because daycare allowed women to join the workforce. So in the 60s, conservatives are freaking out spreading conspiracy theories about daycare being a communist plot. So by the time the 80s comes, that already exists in their minds, that already exists in the conservative Zeitgeist. Now, what is it 80 you know, 80 years later, they believe the same thing. We’re 60 years later, I mean, now it’s, it’s that that already exists in their mindset that that fear of, of pedophiles and you know, that’s all it takes, Qanon came in, and Qanon is not original Qanon is not new. And I’ve said this in the past, the first time I heard about Qanon, I crumpled it up and threw it over my shoulder, this is trash out of my face. It’s unoriginal, it, there’s nothing new about it. But you know, it just, it just came in piggybacking on all these other bad ideas. And I think that that’s why it’s taken off in these these communities, because all it does is piggyback on it on ideas that are hundreds of years old. There’s nothing new about Qanon Heather Warburton 8:20Well, let’s start actually, from what the beginning, let’s take it back a step in case somebody has heard Qanonbut really doesn’t know what it is or hasn’t really done a deep dive on it. Christian Perez 8:30Yeah, so I mean, so again, with conspiracy theorists, you’d be hard pressed to find two that that believe everything the same that agree on everything, but in a nutshell, there’s this idea that that the world or the US government, or the west or whoever, has been controlled by this, you know, shadowy group of individuals, you know, the Illuminati or the Freemasons or the Satanists, whoever they are the Zionists in the past, whatever we’ve called them in the past, but But this time, you know, they’re, you know, they’re responsible for wars and famines and diseases, but now they’re also responsible for the coronavirus pandemic, which may or may not be real depending on who, who you’re talking to, which conspiracy theorist but basically, this idea is now instead of the Illuminati being all powerful, or this cabal, it’s basically just the Democratic Party, a number of bankers, they mean Jewish people, and, you know, members of Hollywood and what they call the government deep state, and when when conservatives talk about the deep state, basically, it’s just government bureaucrats that are whistleblowers. There is no deep state, it’s people holding Trump accountable. It’s, oh, the deep state No, dude, this isn’t a movie. And I mean, that’s the idea is that is that the Hollywood elites, the Democratic Party, and I’m sorry, the democratic elites, the Hollywood elites, the banking industry that they get together and they rule the world and some people believe they kidnap children and they’re molesting children. Other people believe that they’re drinking the blood of children or drinking adrenochrome it’s not just that they’re molesting kids. Some people believe that was it Hillary Clinton, a la Bloody Mary drinks or babes in the blood of children to stay young and powerful? I don’t know. I mean, it’s literally these are the same conspiracy theories that existed in the Middle Ages about Jewish people, they’re gonna steal your kids, they’re gonna perform these rituals where they drink their blood, be afraid and then hate. It’s just evolved from Jews, to bankers and Hollywood actors. And you know, but in reality we see it’s Donald Trump. We see it’s Prince Andrew, we see it’s Jeffrey Epstein. We do see that it’s Bill Clinton, that it’s not just one party or any other party. It’s the wealthy. It’s the powerful. And to quote George Carlin, it’s a big club and you ain’t in it. Heather Warburton 10:49So what are some of the biggest conspiracy theories that have come out of the Q anon community? Christian Perez 10:54Oh, boy, I mean, Heather Warburton 10:56Well, you said just The Deep State is made Coronavirus. That’s one. Christian Perez 11:02Number one would be the deep state like the deep state is this idea that there are government, government bureaucrats, like people in the government that I guess the conspiracy would alleged there’s hundreds or 1000s of people and are just plotting to take out Trump and know, right? Like, like government bureaucrats just want to do their job and hope they don’t get someone like that’s Betty Devos in charge of their organization. That’s all they want to do. Right? They want to get paid, do their jobs. You know, they want to work at the, you know, the Department of Education, but the deep state conspiracy theory is that they’re running around plotting to take down Trump. And they’re running defense for these pedophiles. And, you know, some of them are even, you know, kidnapping children, and so on and so forth. And you have a number of conservatives high ranking republican saying, well, it’s the deep state this it’s the, it’s the deep state that No, it’s just bureaucrats holding, holding Trump accountable. And as we see, we have democrats that aren’t even willing to really go after Trump in the way we’d like. So, you know, that doesn’t really mean anything. So the deep state isn’t really a thing there. Another one of the problems with Qanon is the fact that we get people riled up looking for, you know, pedophiles thinking that they’re hiding under trash cans, or that they’re their government elites or so on and so forth. But in reality is it’s all misinformation. So one of the problems with conspiracy theories is it preys upon people that can be well intentioned and you know, if you’re a scared mother or a health enthusiast, you know, you usually are pretty, pretty well intentioned, but what happens with conspiracy theories especially like Qanon when you spread misinformation about you know, democratic elites, kidnapping kids, or there was something about the I think it was in England there was a supermarket called Wayfait, or no, no, I’m sorry, in the United States is a supermarket that someone had printed something about how Wayfair was involved in like the kidnapping of children. And there was this hotline, it was like, I can’t remember the name of the hotline. Sorry. I was like looking for it. Heather Warburton 13:09Wayfair like the online sales place. Like there’s commercials for the Wayfair its got just what I need. Like that? Christian Perez 13:15Yes, they have stores. So the thing is, it’s like, like, it’s not the New York Times that’s releasing this information. It’s messageboards in the middle of nowhere on these these these creepy websites. So people were calling into these national hotlines about information about the Wayfair you know, Wayfair child molestation plot or whatever. And in reality, you know, there were people waiting for accurate information, so they clog up the phone lines, they they muck up the conversation. So when you think about Qanon and the problems that they cause, it’s not that it’s just misinformation and people are misinformed. They’re actively getting in the way of investigations looking for or investigations of child molestation and if you look at the, the the facts I mean, the 91% of children are that are preyed upon are endangered runaways, right? They’re not snatching kids from daycare centers. They’re not snatching kids from your schools. Like there’s I remember hearing stories of years ago about this woman who claimed Yeah, I would go to school then they take me and this was on these were experiments that they claimed to have happened in Long Island but it was the same thing it was, you know, these that they were kidnapping kids and they would take them away when they sign into school, they would take wisk them around the world, molest them and then send them back home at the end of the day, just before brainwashing them to forget everything right so I mean, these are like this is what I mean when I said like the first time I heard Qanon, I was just kind of I kind of blew it off. Right and now it’s been around for like three years it was just like there’s nothing new about it. Like I keep saying that but it’s the truth. I mean, they get in the way of accurate investigations. It’s basically pizza gate when we talked about pizza gate years ago, it’s pizza gate on steroids. Whereas pizza gate was just a bunch of Democrats in DC at this crappy pizzeria. It’s now it’s all democrats everywhere. And it’s all these powerful people but not Donald Trump. Not the guy taking pictures with Jeffrey Epstein not the guy wishing Julian Maxwell well. It’s just, it’s anybody. It’s anybody but him. Heather Warburton 15:23So now if this person that I saw at Walgreens with the Qanon bumper sticker, are they walking around in the store, literally thinking that Wayfair is selling children? Christian Perez 15:36That’s the thing. I mean, you’d have to talk to it to each and every one of them. I mean, I had a cousin Tell me her, her kids, her kids might like she had stepdaughters and the mother had a Qanon bumper sticker. And it’s you don’t know what each one of them believes. Right? I mean, I’m of the opinion that if they have the bumper sticker, they probably jumped in, you know, they’re they jumped in with both feet, like they’re in the deep end at that point. I’ve run across people who are well intentioned, that made comments about government pedophiles, and I kind of had to roll my eyes, but they weren’t like, Qanon or anything like that. But I mean, I don’t know what this person believes. I mean, if you have the bumper sticker, it’s like, Alright, well, you probably voted for Trump. Which means you know, you’re probably not living in the real world. And, you know, you like, I mean, I just, if I see somebody with a Qanon bumper sticker, I’m like, all right, that person’s not a critical thinker. That person is probably closeted, racist. And probably I, for me, I see a Qanon bumper sticker. I’m like, that’s a negative. I don’t know why anybody would want to advertise that. So if I see somebody with it, I’ve got some some negative views of them. I can’t. I can’t claim to know what they’re thinking. But, you know, I guess I tapped him on the shoulder next time, say, hey, do you think that there’s, you know, pedophiles running around? Where are the kids what kids? Where do they come from? I mean, I don’t I don’t know. Heather Warburton 17:04I don’t know. They were least wearing a mask, because everyone in the store was wearing a mask. So you know, I’ve got to give them that Christian Perez 17:10The anti mask people are still the still the worst. They’re like well see “It hasn’t worked”. It hasn’t worked, because we’re not wearing a mask. Heather Warburton 17:17I did see a good conspiracy theory about that. With the flu like that. They’re just reporting that any flu case, they’re calling it COVID now, and they’re like, Well, why haven’t there been any new flu cases to which I responded with like, Well, yeah, it’s almost like wearing a mask, washing your hands and social distancing prevents the spread of disease is why maybe there’s less flu cases? Christian Perez 17:40Yes. It’s some guy today I saw something. And he made some comments about, well, we already had, what did he say? Like, however many 1000s of deaths a month? I’m like, What are you talking about? Even if we had 1000s and 1000s of deaths a month? We’re having 1000s and 1000s of deaths more a month now. Right? Like it, they like try to play like this weird numbers game. About percentages are like, well, it’s only got, like, a 2%. Like, mortality rate. I’m like, that’s 6 million people. That’s still more people that they can fit in our hospitals. It’s just, it’s just so many people just thinking that they’re smarter than the scientists. Heather Warburton 18:22Right? Actually, I had this discussion with my husband like, we were curious, like, well, what’s something that we consider like an acceptable number of deaths a day like driving a car, for example, some people get killed driving a car? So we’re like, Okay, well, how many people in New Jersey, for example, die per day in an auto accident. And I think it was two was the number that we found from doing our research. Now, compared to how many people are dying every day, from COVID in New Jersey, like right up into the 30s 40s 50s. Again, now, like, if there was a gunman who was killing 30 40 or 50 people a day, like we’d be in a panic about that. Christian Perez 19:00Could you imagine if, like, you know, like popcorn was killing 50 people a day we’d be like, ban popcorn. Heather Warburton 19:10But like, you know, just put it in comparison. You think of these things as being giant killers, like auto accidents, or shooting. And you know, like, it was like the only one person was killed a day by shooting and being shot in New Jersey, like these numbers are miniscule compared to Christian Perez 19:24They’re miniscule I mean, we’re talking almost one 911 every day. At this point. We are at now I actually had to had to write it down. We are at over 96 911 we have 286,000 deaths in the United States that’s over 96 911 and why do we even have a 911 Memorial now? Right? What does it mean? What like, if a conservative or an anti masker because you know, they’re gonna overlap if like they don’t get to complain about 911 I don’t ever want to hear a republican complaint about 911 ever again. Or cults of personality, for that matter because these people are like lemmings, you know, following Trump off the hill, but, I mean, it’s just the amount of death is it’s staggering. Heather Warburton 20:12We’ve lost 15,000 and some people in New Jersey, I only have 14,000 people that live in my town. Yeah, like that would be more than my entire town that I live in just wiped off the planet. Christian Perez 20:24I saw this interview, I think it was with Michael Moore. And he was like, and this is like a week or two ago, he said, this would be as if the entire population of Richmond Virginia just disappeared. Wow. Yeah, I mean, that’s a city. I mean, 280,000 people, 286,000 people, that’s a nice sized city. And it’s it’s not like it’s some some zombie apocalypse that we couldn’t fight that there was nothing for. All people had to do was wash their hands and wear masks. And we have a president like, I still don’t understand with Trump like why, like it was a slam dunk to tell people to wear masks, like Trump. I fully believe and I believe this wholeheartedly that if it wasn’t for Coronavirus, we would we would have a second Trump term. Heather Warburton 21:09Probably. I think we would have to .I really couldn’t guess who was going to win up until maybe the last month or so I’m like, okay, it’s probably gonna be Biden. Christian Perez 21:16Yeah. But like joe, I’m just like, Wow, we had 70 X, you know, 73 million people that still voted for Trump. It’s like, no, if it wasn’t for this virus, he would have he would have steamrolled Biden it would have been an embarrassment. But I just, it was a slam dunk. Like, he’s the president who wants to be the leader. We get this virus that we could have easily handled. All he had to say was wear your masks, wash your hands. He could have he could have inflated the numbers of lives. He could have saved, but he totally punked out. I mean, and that’s, I mean, that’s the thing with Trump and I think that that’s kind of like the fear of the future is it’s like Trump’s a buffoon. He’s a jackass. Even like, he is like this failure, but because he’s rich, he gets to exist. If he was a blue collar person like you or me, he would have been you know, he would have never survived. He would have been he would have been gobbled up. But like it was a slam dunk. All he had to say was wear the masks. And he could have he could have been a leader. I mean, even now, did you see a couple weeks ago when they had that there was a rally in support of him in Washington, DC. And he drove past the rally like it didn’t even matter. Heather Warburton 22:31Wow. Christian Perez 22:33And I’m just like, could you imagine if this guy was competent, like the amount of damage he has done by being a buffoon? Heather Warburton 22:39Right? Christian Perez 22:39Can you imagine, it’s, it’s terrifying. Like for me, like, election night, I was scared. I’m not even gonna lie, like, you know, triggered terrified. I was legit terrified. I was terrified for myself and people that I care about, because it’s like, people in this country just don’t think critically. Party identification. You know, what, what political party, what red team, whatever team you’re on means more than almost anything. So people will vote for Trump, just because they’re on Team Read without realizing that the ramifications. Heather Warburton 23:10And yeah, I’m terrified because I mean, we know you and I both know Biden’s going to be a horrible president. He’s not going to make anything better. So then when 2024 rolls around, what if that competent fascist that actually isn’t such a loser shows up? I’m thinking Tom Cotton possibly. Christian Perez 23:27Yeah, I mean, let’s hope it’s not Ted Cruz. God I hate Ted Cruz. But yeah, Tom Cotton. It’s like Trump is an idiot. Like, all it took was for him to be a little bit like a little bit less egotistical. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I guess that’s a good thing that his ego gotten away. This virus was a slam dunk. It was a slam dunk, especially after we saw what was happening in Italy. Right? We should have just, you know, just mask up. I’m Donald Trump. I’m the wartime president, but it was just sloppy. Heather Warburton 24:00So I guess now we need to talk about the coup and the Qanon coup that happened. You know, who would have predicted we have somebody that was gonna wear a buffalo hide and paint his face blue and call himself the Qshaman and try to take over the Capitol. Like, what was that? Christian Perez 24:21Heather, I don’t even know where to jump in. And you’re talking about the Q anon shaman? I believe the guy’s name is Anjali? I don’t know. I mean, if you would have asked me if I thought there would be some kind of like, lashing out by Trump supporters. I would have said, Yeah, I believe it. Right. This is what they do. This is white fragility. This is male fragility. This is this is the reaction to a loss of perceived privilege, right, whether consciously or subconsciously. Did I see this coming? No. I believe last time we were talking about how like how Trump basically just left his supporters behind. There was some kind of rally that he had, and he got them all all excited. And then he got in his car and he drove away. Oh, no, what had happened was they were having a rally in support of him and then he showed up and drove away. And then on the 6th, we see him egg on this crowd and get them all riled up and he tells them we we are going to march to the Capitol, and then they play YMCA and he got in his car and he drove away. And that was how he was able to deny all of this. I don’t know how we got here. I am, you know, I’m lying. I guess I do. We have a bad president. We have a conspiracy . We had it. We sorry. We had a bad president. We had a conspiracy theorist in charge of the country. And this is what happens. He lost the election. He got walloped in the election, and he couldn’t deal with it. And these Trump supporters lashed out as a result of that they feel like, I don’t know. I mean, I I can’t understand thinking Joe Biden is Mao Zedong. I don’t know where that comes from, I can’t fathom thinking that Nancy Pelosi is some kind of communist dictator. Right. As I said earlier, Joe Biden has a member of Raytheon in his cabinet, this guy is not a communist. This guy is not some kind of, you know, Mao Zedong, that’s going to overthrow the government, and he’s going to lock up true patriots. January 6th was the last gasp, I don’t wanna say the last gasp, but just the gasp of ignorance, the gasp of white supremacy, the gasp of people who just don’t know how the world works. And they were living their lives believing that Donald Trump is some kind of genius, some kind of great leader, some kind of man who is going to, you know, bring on the storm. And there were people who thought that, you know, during the inauguration, Joe Biden was just going to get arrested, the cops were going to show up, and Trump was going to show up at the military. And it didn’t happen. And that rambling answer was my response to January 6, that was a coup. It was an insult. And I don’t want to say it was planned. Well, it was definitely planned by by some people. I don’t think Trump had anything to do with it. I don’t think he’s that intelligent. But it’s very similar to who some of the things we’ve seen in some developing countries, be they Honduras be they Venezuela, be they Bolivia. Heather Warburton 27:26And I think this is kind of changing things. It’s sort of was a spark of change of how we all kind of viewed the Q anon supporters a little bit that I almost maybe thought at times that they were a joke. And then you see this and now moving forward, you’re seeing them sort of merging with some other kind of fringe groups. Christian Perez 27:48Yeah. Qanon is no longer the mainstream unfortunately. That was a mistake I made that was a mistake. A lot of people made, there’s nothing original or new about Qanon, it brings absolutely nothing new to the table, other than its just its size. Back in when Obama first became president, we had the Tea Party and the tea party doesn’t exist anymore. But I’m not going to assume that those people all just evaporated. Right, they’ve taken on a different form. They became trumpers, they became the Qanon supporters. Qanon dropped the ball, right. Qanon is a joke, it was always a joke. It’s so silly that even Alex Jones turned on it. So I mean, if you’re a Qanon supporter, you have two decisions, two options, right. One decision, two options. And one is, do I, you know, see this for the joke that it is? Or do I dig in deeper? So for those people that dig in deeper, what does that entail? What does that look like? Well, part of it is, you know, just maintaining Qanon, a lot of it is taking on other conspiracy theories and joining other organizations. So we see sovereign citizens movements, three percenter movements, militia movements, all taking on the iconography and the language of Qanon. This is something that was bound to happen. Always, when you look at trumpers, trumpers, are really just a mixed bag of individuals. So when you look at those rallies, when you look at January 6, when you look at, you know, like the Trump rallies, you see a bunch of different people. Yeah, they’re all trumpers. But what brings them together is Trump so these are people with different ideas, different viewpoints, of varying, perhaps right wing organizations, all brought together under Trump. And when you bring different people together, there’s going to be some intermixing, right? There’s going to be some sharing of ideas. And this is what we see right there. The right wing is not known for its critical thinking skills. It’s not known for its attention to history, it’s not known for its attention to reality. So when you get this many people have, you know, similar but, you know, we’ll say different backgrounds coming together. They’re going to steal each other’s ideas. Just because someone is a Qanon supporter doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not going to be a militia member or a sovereign citizen one can be a Qanon supporter and be a religious fundamentalist, one can be a militia member and and be a religious fundamentalist, one could be a religious fundamentalist, and also hold a number of right wing views. So we shouldn’t assume Now I’m not saying you’re saying this, Heather. And I’m not saying a lot of our supporters are saying this, but we shouldn’t assume that, you know, these people are that Trump supporters are just members of one organization or a number or another, there’s, there’s going to be a good chance that a lot of these people are going to have alliances or ties or sympathies to a number of organizations. So I mean, it’s not really surprising to see this. If you are a Qanon supporter, you might be disillusioned, right. Joe Biden is the president. The predictions did not come true. Well, I mean, we’re dealing with human beings or we’re dealing with American so people aren’t just going to say I was wrong and making an about face. People are gonna dig in. These are trumpers. Right? They’re going to double down on their ignorance. So what does that mean? That means moving from Q perhaps to being more of a religious fundamentalist to joining a violent, a white supremacist movement, joining a sovereign citizen or militia, militia mens movement. It can go it can go any of those ways. We’re dealing with with a mixed bag of individuals that are not critical thinkers that are pathologically drawn to anti government, anti journalism, anti anti scientific, anti intellectual movements, so they’re gonna prey on one another. Heather Warburton 31:33And earlier today, we were talking, talking about the sovereign citizens, you were kind of teasing me with one of the conspiracy theories of that sort of merges the Trump and sovereign citizen movement, can you tell the listeners about that? Christian Perez 31:45Yeah, yeah, I gotta stop giving you these tidbits, Heather. What happened. I mean, so again, with the sovereign citizens, it’s you’re dealing with all kinds of like kooky types. So very much like a conspiracy theorists can see the truth in politics and media, the sovereign citizens have like these weird philosophies and theories on law in the United States. And I’m not an expert on sovereign citizens. But one of the claims is that in 1871, I think it was the United States, I can’t remember what law it was or what Act, the United States ceased to be a country and became a corporation. And in 1933, of course, Roosevelt is getting blamed for it. Apparently, Roosevelt had something to do with selling out the United States to foreign investors. I don’t I don’t know what that means that that’s called capitalism. Right. That’s called the status quo. But anyway, so the a lot of these sovereign citizens believe that the United States ceased to be a nation state as we know it in 1871. So there are people that believe that on March 4, the original inauguration day before it was moved to January 20 20th, in 1930s, that on March 4, Donald Trump will be President of the United States, and he will be inaugurated as the 19th President of the United States, because all the Presidents we’ve had since I think it was Ulysses S. Grant, have been illegitimate, I don’t know, like these conspiracy theories are weird Heather. As anti capitalists and socialists, you know, we could look at a history of just like government overreach and governmental violence that can can that has led us to where we stand ideologically. But it’s not the same with these people. Right? There are these weird arcane laws, these things in history, that didn’t even happen. And they have built these ideologies based on that. And they’re violent. And they’re organized. And it’s it’s kind of scary. But yeah, I mean, that’s what it is. I mean, I don’t know what to say to somebody who says that, to me, it’s kind of like when you see the LaRouche people outside the DMV, you know, you don’t make eye contact, what do I say? What is there to say? I don’t know. But yes, I mean, these are the sovereign citizens. On March 4, Donald Trump will be inaugurated as a 19th. President United States, I don’t know what’s gonna happen to Joe Biden, I don’t know what’s gonna happen to all the elected members of Congress. I don’t know, we never know with these types. Heather Warburton 34:09Right. And we obviously know, this isn’t gonna happen. We know that’s not how things are going to play out. And so then again, we’re gonna have these people that had this belief, and now again, their sort of psyche gets fractured. You know, we don’t know what they’re gonna do after that, but it’s either, you know, you’ve got two choices, Are they’re gonna start reaching out and apologizing to people in their family, like, sorry, can I see my grandkids again? Or they’re going to keep going down the rabbit hole until eventually, some other thing worse than this inauguration or this? January 6, coup will happen? Christian Perez 34:45Yeah, I mean, all it takes is for someone more intelligent and organized and Donald Trump and that’s not hard. Right? I mean, Trump is really just scarring the republicans but in many ways he’s just held a mirror up to them up to the leadership. Right, because the leadership of the Republican Party wanted to act like these people didn’t exist. They wanted to sweep these deplorables under the rug, and they didn’t realize these people are organized, and they very much will take over the party. You know, these are people that want change, quote, unquote. But this change always seems to be in lockstep with the status quo. They want change, but they still want gay people to shut the hell up. They want change, but they still want brown people to have a second class status. So I mean its scary because these are not rational people. So with these types in power, we don’t know what we’re going to get right we can get and we’re seeing now this Marjorie Taylor green, I mean, she’s she’s, she’s crazy. She’s loco. I mean, this is not a rational person. This is a crazy person, and she is a lawmaker in the United States. I had a video last night because she was she’s so frustrating to me. I just, I had to say something about it. If you were the government in North Korea, if this is the government of China, or the government of Iran, any country where there isn’t democracy, they are now showing their citizens January 6, they are showing their citizens Marjorie Taylor Green, and they’re saying this is what the United States wants. This is American democracy. Right? Look at Iraq. Look at Afghanistan. Look at January 6, look at Marjorie Taylor Green. Look at Donald Trump. This is what democracy brings. So unfortunately, I mean, we will never really know the damage done by the Trump administration and just the ignorant people in the Republican Party. It’s not just local, its global. Its International. It’s historical. Right? Donald Trump is a stretch mark on American history. Heather Warburton 36:36And I wanted to kind of tie this back to the beginning of the show where I talked about the person that I saw at Walgreens that had the Qanon bumper sticker. And I kind of wonder like, where they are now, like now that they’ve been through all Christian Perez 36:49Where were they on January 6. You know, I dont want to know where you are now, where were you on January 6, wasn’t it? I bet you weren’t at Walmart. Heather Warburton 36:59They scraped the Qanon on bumper sticker off their car now or you know. Christian Perez 37:05It’s lately. How’s your brother? How’s your brother in Minnesota doing Have you spoken to them? Heather Warburton 37:12Yeah, it’s scary stuff, though. It really is all these conspiracy theories. Like I know we like to joke about them, because what else can you do other than laugh, but it is scary stuff. Christian Perez 37:23It’s It’s terrifying. Heather, they have guns. They’re organized. They’re violent. And we have a political system that doesn’t know how to deal with them. We have a justice system that is sympathetic to them. So it’s it’s scary on the night of the election, I legitimately went to bed scared. I woke up in the middle of the night, sick to my stomach. Because I was legitimately scared of a second Trump presidency, because that meant me and people that look like me. Could be targeted. Right? I mean, whether they’re Qanon supporters whether they’re blatant white supremacists, these are people attacking synagogues, attacking black churches, attacking mosques, attacking police officers, attacking government institutions. So I mean it these are these are, we have to laugh, Heather, because if we don’t laugh, it’s very easy to get depressed thinking about these people. They’re getting elected to Congress. This is a fault of education of law enforcement of politics of economics. This is this is the American nightmare. Heather Warburton 38:32How frustrating is it that we’ve got an a legitimate crazy person in office, and we can’t get a socialist elected? We can’t get a real leftist elected. But we’ve literally elected a crazy person. Christian Perez 38:45I mean, you have Joe Biden. And it’s like, all right, Joe Biden is the return to normal and for the brunch, liberals, I guess that’s a good thing. For me in my everyday life, I’ll admit that’s a good thing, right. But for people that look like me on the other side of the border, it’s not a good thing. For people in, you know, the Arab world or in Latin America and Africa. It’s not a good thing. And I think one of the big disconnects about someone like you or me, Heather, and your run of the mill, liberals or boomers or whoever is they aren’t global citizens, right? They don’t take into consideration, you know, the extent of their voting and what that will mean, you know, throughout the rest of the world, and part of being a socialist is being an internationalist. And knowing that I do have responsibility to you know, these people that I’ll never see it, I’ll never meet on the other side of the world. Heather Warburton 39:34Yeah, I wish more people could get that and understand that there’s consequences for any of these people that we’re voting for. And sure the Trump consequences were horribly damaging. But you know, if you live in Venezuela right now and Biden saying, I’m still supporting the coup. Christian Perez 39:54Yeah, I mean, it’s like Juan Guiado Like, like we used to play, for how many like since the coup happened, How long have we been playing? Where in the world is Juan Guiado. Heather Warburton 40:03Seriously Christian Perez 40:06And this is liberals, I got into with a bunch of liberals. I know last week, if Maduro was in any way the dictator that they think he is, do you think they would have allowed Juan Guiado to just walk around freely as he does? Right? Heather Warburton 40:20He would be very very dead. Christian Perez 40:22He would have been locked up, and I’d have been eating popcorn yelling “Do it, Do it”. You know like i don’t care like this is not North Korea. It’s not Iran. It’s not Nazi Germany. It’s Venezuala Dude, you don’t get to just like, like I had this just will say people I know like liberals I know who are just like, well, Maduro is a dictator. What? How? Why is he a dictator, because we antagonize his country, because we’re stealing resources from them? That’s like seeing a stray cat picking a fight with a stray cat, antagonizing it, and then when it scratches you saying it’s a wild beast? No. Like you you have targeted this country, specifically because they don’t want to fit into the neoliberal agenda. You antagonize them by choking them economically and politically. And when they lash out because there’s organized right wing mobs very similar to the one we saw on January 6, a matter of fact worse, attacking a number of government institutions and citizens and elected elected officials. Right? Reacting against that reacting to that makes you a dictator? It’s absurd. I’m not gonna say Nicolas Maduro is the nicest guy in the world. He’s not. And I’m not gonna say he’s a great leader, because he’s not a great leader. But most of those problems in that country are because they can’t seem to be left alone. And that that’s a problem with this country. It’s, I mean, and we could tie it it’s it’s this white fragility, it’s this white supremacy, this idea that brown people don’t know what’s best for themselves, right? We know what’s best for those brown people in Latin America, or these brown people that are voting for these democrats that elected Biden, they don’t know what’s best for this country. So we need to storm the Capitol and steal democracy from them. Because they don’t know they don’t know any better. Let’s not confuse ourselves. January 6, was an attack on multiculturalism. It was an attack on multiracial democracy. You know, I mean, that, that that’s exactly what it is. And that’s what they’re dealing with in Latin America today. And, you know, to bring it back, I’m sorry, like, this is this is what Joe Biden represents. I mean, it’s, they did everything that he could to stop Bernie Sanders, who is, you know, a European style, social democrat, not the end of the world. And they give us Joe Biden, and it’s more of the same. And as we said earlier, we might not have president Qanon on in 2024. But the republicans are going to really pull somebody out of the out of the depths of Hades to to run for office, because I don’t know like, Who do they have? Josh Holley, Ted Cruz, oh, these are just just just grotesque individuals. Just as as a man, and as a human being, I have zero respect for Ted Cruz, the guy is the epitome of sleazy politicians. Heather Warburton 42:57Oh, he absolutely is. And there’s plenty of them. Christian Perez 43:01Wherever there’s money to be made, wherever there’s fame to be had, there’s going to be demagogues, and as long as there’s demagogues, there’s going to be conspiracy theory, there’s going to be hatred of immigrants and people of color and, you know, the LGBT community. It happens and unfortunately, our our system, our our style of democracy, capitalist democracy, it creates these types of individuals. Heather Warburton 43:25And so now Trump’s gone, you know, or and by the time people listen to this, Trump will be gone. Trump is no longer the president. Now we have a Biden president. What role does Qanon and places like that play? Now that we have a Biden president? Christian Perez 43:41Yeah, I mean, so like I said, I got into it with a with it with a relative not long ago, it’s here’s the deal. If you believe in Qanon, if you are a trumper. Biden’s victory is proof of a conspiracy. Biden winning means that the conspiracy is real, because Trump had all those rallies, and Trump is so great. And he’s such a winner, and all he’s ever done is win. And he’s something something North Korea and he’s something Iran, and he something something to everybody, you know that that for them. It’s they just don’t get it. Right. So so for them, I mean, and this is how conspiracy theories work. So whether you’re a religious fundamentalist, whether you believe in aliens or whether you’re a Trump or because, yes, trumpers are conspiracy theorists. Most American conservatives are conspiracy theorists. They just don’t live in the real world. The propaganda is too strong. So for them, it’s just this idea that like it’s been validated like, you heard Trump say and like Trump says it and because he says it, his supporters believe it. It’s like, but we had so many rallies. Well, yeah, it doesn’t matter. But there’s 300 million people in this country. And even if 70 something million people vote for him, there’s going to be 10s of millions of more that that that don’t so for them, they See Biden winning as a victory of the deep state of the liberals. So you’ve you’ve kind of saw this meltdown leading up to the, the election, this fear that there’s going to be lists, in many ways Qanon. We’re not dealing with rational people, but Qanon should go away with the loss of Donald Trump. Because it shows that Donald Trump was not who they thought he was, he’s not this hero, he’s not this lion that’s gonna, you know, arrest all these democrats and send them to Guantanamo Bay, he’s not going to take on the deep state, he’s not going to do, he’s not going to do any of those things. So, you know, it’s they either fade away, or it’s going to evolve into something else. It is three years old, I don’t even know nobody even really knows if the original Q person is still around. If it’s even the same people, there are a number of people who have built now careers off of Qanon, there are people who have been elected to Congress as a result of Qanon on. So I mean, I don’t know, it’s what happened to the Tea Party, well, the Tea Party probably became the trumpers and became the Qanon. So you know, some people might disappear. But if you are, you know, still a Trump or, or you’re still adhering to Qanon, you’re probably not that big of a critical thinker. So if they don’t adhere, they’ll just morph into something else, they’ll become something else. Q itself might go away, but those people are never going to go away, the fears of pedophiles are never going to go away. And you know, that the fear of Democrats are never going to go away. So Q itself might not exist, but but Q will live on, you know, in other ways, unfortunately. Heather Warburton 46:33And it’ll probably continue, like, whatever new face it takes, it’s still gonna keep growing, we’re going to see probably more and more conspiracy people, Christian Perez 46:41It’s gonna be more of the same, you know, still, it’s still going to be the Hollywood elites, still gonna be the Hillary Clinton’s. I mean, I saw this, this this meme, and it was like, you know, the, the political spectrum with the x and the y axis. And it was like the upper right hand far, right. And it was like, from Trump to Biden, it was like the small tiny movement. And it was like this image of a conservative like, freaking out. It’s like, Oh, no, the list. It’s like, dude, there’s never going to be lists. There’s never going to be list the Secretary of Defense, right? The black Secretary of Defense, I had his name here. I forgot it. But it’s like something Boyd. Anyway, it’s like the guy was on the board of Raytheon. He’s not a communist. What do you think is gonna happen? Right? He was on the board of these arms manufacturer. So I mean, Heather Warburton 47:23That’s what I always wanted to try to point out to these conspiracy people like, there is a small sect of people that are running everything, and they’re corporations. It’s not the Hollywood elites. It’s not the secretary down at the DMV. It’s the people that are massively wealthy because of their corporations. It’s the Jeff Bezos. It’s the Walmart family. Christian Perez 47:45Look at Harvey Weinstein, like Harvey Weinstein owned the production company. So you can tell me the Hollywood the Hollywood actors are all powerful. No, this guy was, was treating these women like objects. That’s power. You know, it’s like you hear these, you know, they will say Beyonce is an elitist. No jackass, Beyonce is a dancer. Jay Z is a rapper. The elitist are billionaires. Right? Oprah Winfrey, Oprah Who? right we’re talking Sheldon Adelson? We’re talking arms manufacturers. We’re talking like these agribusinesses. Were talking pharma companies. It’s like, there are these fears of like these lame liberal politicians, like even Ice Cube, and 50 cent who are supposed to represent the street, they jumped in with Trump. Right? So it’s like so even like this theory that these these Hollywood elites, and these musicians are all part of this plot. It’s not true. Like it’s, they’re all out for themselves. You know, I don’t fear Jay Z. I fear the guy who owns the record label. You know, those are the people with the big money. Heather Warburton 48:48Those are the people that actually buy politicians. Christian Perez 48:51Yeah, they own the NBA and that’s the thing. It’s like, Look, corporations buy off politicians, Heather Warburton 48:58But they don’t fear those people. They fear somebody that works at the DMV is part of the Deep State. Christian Perez 49:04Like, yeah, like, it just cracks me up. It’s like guy, some nurse giving a vaccine is not trying to eradicate, you know, African Americans or it just some some nurse trying to give you a vaccine. Right? There’s this belief that that like everyone is part of the conspiracy. It’s like, well, you don’t know. I mean, I work in education. I’ll admit, you know, the American educational system is racist, it’s white supremacist. It’s sexist. But you know, I work in the education system. I’m not those things. I’m actively trying to, you know, criticize arbitrary authority, but people have these conspiratorial beliefs. They think all institutions are monolithic. And, you know, just because, you know, the person in charge believes something that everyone’s going to fall in line. And to that I reply, have you ever been a manager at a job? Or ever been a team leader, you ever give somebody a task and they just don’t do it? ever work in a group or something? And it falls apart. Like, why do you think people are just going to just do as they’re told? Heather Warburton 50:04It’s almost adorable that they think that somebody can organize like hundreds of 1000s of people into a conspiracy. And when everyone does their job, like you’ve never organized anything, if you believe that, you know, I organized with the Green Party, and we’re lucky if we can get 15 people to show up at a rally that we all really believe. Christian Perez 50:24Yeah, you can’t get people to agree on a pizza topping, you’re gonna get people to agree, like, and that’s the thing, like, we’re not talking like, like, like, like Caesar, or Abraham Lincoln, a handful of people like these conspiracy theories. It’s always bigger and bigger. It’s like, wait, so the CIA is involved with the FBI, or like, the deep state like, so we’re talking 1000s of people that are federal workers. So if there’s a deep state, like, where do they meet? How are they paid? Who’s in charge of the records? Right? And, and if you know, if one guy in the office is part of the Deep State, and the other isn’t, how do you keep it a secret? You know, like, we’re like, we’re all these deep state people like,, yeah, like, it’s like, who’s getting paid? Like, do they get paid more? Do you get a stipend for being a part of the Deep State? Or are you just ideologically at, you know, ideologically bound to it. And people just say things, they just throw ideas out into the ether without actually thinking about them. But that’s, that’s how it is. Now people talk, everyone has an opinion. And I mean, in many ways, social media is a good thing, because it’s given everyone a platform, but in many ways, it’s bad because it’s allowed the most ignorant in our society, you know, that same platform, and they’ve used it to profit and, and, and, you know, just gain influence. Heather Warburton 51:38Conspiratorial thinking of anything is on the rise, and I don’t, you know, I mean, we’ve talked before about how do you combat it? And you kind of can’t Christian Perez 51:49Yeah, I mean, so for me, it’s Yeah, it’s not gonna work by yelling at people on Facebook. Right? You have to do it with policy. And yeah, much easier said than done. Right? We need we need critical thinking in schools, right? We need to stop these attacks on history. We need to stop these attacks on science, right? We need to stop with the Moses was a founding father, Jesus was a founding father. creationism is a science type stuff, we need to stop that. But we’re talking decades and decades of conspiratorial thinking, you know, fears of like, affirmative action, or immigrants taking your jobs and all that stuff? Well, we have allowed these these ideas to seep into our society. And all conspiracy theorists have done is piggyback on that. Heather Warburton 52:36And every generation seems to build on the conspiracies of the last Christian Perez 52:41How do liberals, like liberal leadership is not pushing back when Bill Clinton says something, like, “I’m gonna end welfare as we know it”. What does that signal to everyone else? What does that signal to to conservatives other than, hey, we can we can continue this onslaught upon working people, because the, you know, the liberals were supposed to be the guardians of that they’re, they’re letting it happen. So I mean, in schools by by changing laws, and and hopefully by, by by creating critical thinkers, that’s how we do it. I think that that’s just with wishful thinking, unfortunately, because I mean, I don’t I don’t see things getting immediately better, unfortunately. And I don’t like being a pessimist. But I guess that’s just me being true to myself. With social media, especially with Trump, Trump’s not going to go away. Trump’s going to continue to have rallies, and he’s going to continue to lie and lie and lie, and more people are going to creep out of the woodwork and they’re going to continue to lie and lie and lie. So you know, we got we got to see how it looks going forward. But I don’t I don’t see them going away. Unfortunately. Heather. Yeah, Heather Warburton 53:43I sad to say I agree with you on this one too. But we’ll see if the Qanon and on Trump thing. I mean, I’m assuming for a while, it’s just going to live on pure rage, but after a year, we’ll see if it’s still around. Christian Perez 53:57Let’s hope I mean, I don’t know like you I don’t know if you remember leading up to the election. They had those stupid, those convoys. They had him here on the Parkway, I think they had him. Like, I don’t see that going away. It’s like a Trump rally. It’s like a megachurch. Right. It’s not just about seeing Trump, it’s about being a part of something. Right. And for these people that are not critical thinkers that don’t have a global perspective, you know, that that aren’t open minded being a part of something like that. It’s it’s, it’s euphoric for them, Heather Warburton 54:28Right. And to bring it back to what started this whole thing. If you put a bumper sticker on your car about something, you’re proud of it that’s part of your identity. You’ve internalized that to make it like this is who I am. I want everyone to know this is who I am. So that isn’t gonna go away anytime soon. Christian Perez 54:46It’s not it’s not I mean, it’s, it’s a shame because, you know, I mean, like, I always said, like, like Donald Trump voting for Donald Trump was just such a lack of critical thinking because you had people who like He’s an outsider. I’m like, he’s already admitted to buying off politicians. But if you’ve bought off politicians, you are by definition, not an outsider. That’s the inside. Heather Warburton 55:10That’s inside. Christian Perez 55:11That is the inside. And people just like he’s on the outside. I’m like, he just admitted that he’s on the inside. Right? I mean, it’s they don’t, they don’t they don’t get it. Like, it’s, it’s a lack of critical thinking. It’s, it’s part of like, like, identity politics, and then it’s him justifying all of their bad ideas. Why I can’t be a racist piece of crap because the president is well, you know, he is, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s, I just, I will never understand Donald Trump. I remember, like, years ago, before he ever ran, my dad is like, he’s got all this money. You can’t afford a haircut. Right? He’s got bad hair, bad tan. I mean, like, like, I always say, like, there are these images of him. Like, like, like, he’s Rambo. I’m like, like, if you are a man’s man, like, if you’re a macho, Macho Man, it’s like, Donald Trump doesn’t stand like a man. He leans forward like a bowling pin. Right? He kind of stands like a penguin. His his mannerisms could be seen as feminine. His speech pattern could be seen as feminine. And not that I have a problem with that. But if you’re trying to portray him as john Rambo or GI Joe, he’s not that buddy. His hair is fake. His tan is fake, right? He doesn’t have a tan from being out in the sun slaughtering brown people. He has a tan from not even a tanning bed. He smears the crap on his face. Heather Warburton 56:31Yeah, it’s a spray on. Christian Perez 56:32Like, like, even just just by looking at the man and hearing him speak. You can see that he’s full of it. Like you don’t even have to know Donald Trump. What he’s about, sorry, this guy’s full of it, like look at this guy. Right? But they don’t I mean, just the goofy tie, like all this stuff, all this stuff. But people eat it up. I don’t know. It’s like, it’s like it’s some Greek tragedy from 1000s of years ago. Heather Warburton 56:52And we get to live through it. Christian Perez 56:53I mean, that we have like almost 600 kids that have been separated from their family. allegations of sexual assault. women getting forced hysterectomy. diminished international standing, increased role of right wing governments globally. 286,000 deaths. Yeah, that’s America. That’s winning. That’s that’s maga. It’s an absolute failure. It was always going to be a failure. I remember when he got elected, I said he’s going to make every problem in this country worse. And he did. Heather Warburton 57:22And I mean, problems in this country just keeps getting worse, no matter who’s president. But he did a number on them. Like, he took it to a new level of making things worse. Christian Perez 57:31He did. He’s so bad. He got people to be inspired by Joe Biden. Joe Biden still puts me to sleep. I’m like, oh, sleepy Joe, like uninspiring. Lack of energy and uninspiring. That that’s Joe Biden. I mean, Kamala Harris, just ju
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