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Dr. Ana-Maria Temple is a functional medicine doctor, a best-selling author, and an award-winning speaker at the Harvard Club of Boston. Her specific expertise is eczema, a condition that plagues many of us and our kids. We go really deep on how this problem can start even before birth or during the birth process and what’s going on physiologically in the body when someone has eczema. If your child is struggling with eczema, I highly encourage you to listen because Dr. Ana-Maria shares some helpful insights of what eczema is and what is at the root cause. I know how horrible it is to see your child suffer, so please take advantage of her resources. Episode Highlights With Dr. Ana-Maria Temple The real triggers of eczema and how to get rid of it for good Most common food triggers of eczema The birth connection to gut bacteria A special bacteria that babies had in their guts before the 1960s that they don’t have now What research shows on the correlation between doses of Tylenol and risk of eczema The reason fever can be good and important for kids, and why getting rid of it can be problematic A surprising risk of reflux medication in children An important reason not to bring down a fever (and what to do instead) How histamine comes into play with eczema and what to do about it And more! Resources We Mention Eczema Transformation Course Use Code wellness100 for a discount 68: The Miracle of Microbirth: What Every Mother Should Know 389: Addressing the Root Cause of Eczema, Allergies and Asthma With Dr. Nelli Gluzman 378: Q&A: Health on a Budget, Virtual Schooling, Screen Time, Self Care, Eczema & Giving Blood 7 Natural Remedies for Eczema Did you enjoy this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This episode is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the superfood mushroom company that I have been talking about and loving for many years! I love all of their products, especially their coffee infused with brain-boosting lion’s mane and their reishi elixir at night for awesome sleep. I’ve also recently been trying their protein powder and really love their peanut butter flavor. Peanut Butter is one of my weaknesses, and I love that I get all the flavor of it in this protein packed format rather than the super-dense calorie version of regular peanut butter. Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact formulation or exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com. Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s Wellnesse, with an E on the end, my new line of personal care products. This episode goes deep on eczema because I still get so many questions from other parents about this. My second son, my third child had eczema, very severe eczema, and we were able to reverse it. And we talk about some of the changes that helped him and also some of the changes that help many, many kids today. I’m here with Dr. Ana-Maria Temple, who is a best-selling author and award-winning speaker at the Harvard Club of Boston. And she has a medical degree and works in functional medicine. And she’s helped over 36,000 patients in-person and also via online courses and has a specific expertise when it comes to eczema. So we go really deep on this topic of how this process can start even before birth and during the birth process. What are some early interventions and then what to do even if a child has had eczema for a long time or has a very severe case? And there’s some very specific resources for this in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. If your child is struggling with eczema, I highly encourage you to check those out because I learned firsthand you can reverse it. And I know just how horrible it is to see your child suffer, so please take advantage of those resources, and I hope that you’ll find this episode as helpful as I did. Without further ado, let’s join Dr. Temple. Dr. Ana-Maria, welcome. Thanks for being here. Dr. Ana-Maria: I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Katie: I’m excited to chat with you because you are an expert in an area that I hear from a lot of parents about. And it seems to be I hear from an increasing number of parents and families about that, and that is eczema. And I know a lot of skin issues that, kind of, fall under that umbrella but I wanna really, like, start broad and really go deep and get into some specifics on this today because I had this with my second son, my third child, and we eventually were able to resolve it for him but I know it was a little bit of a long road. And I saw it firsthand just how uncomfortable he was. And it’s heartbreaking as a parent to see your child go through that and, of course, horrible for the child as well. So, to start broad, walk us through what’s going on physiologically in the body when someone has eczema. Dr. Ana-Maria: Well, you know, we’ve had the same share…I mean, same issues at my household. And I was able to have two children that suffered from eczema because, you know, I’m an overachiever. And so I’ve gotten to see it firsthand as well. And what’s going on in our body in the traditional model, you know, we’re often taught about the skin, that the skin is the problem and we have to do topical treatments for it. When in fact, eczema actually starts from the inside out. And it usually starts with, you know, for our children with the mom’s diet before she even was pregnant, during pregnancy, at birth. Once the children are born, and they’re out in the world, and depending on the diet that they have right now, and what’s going on is that the children’s bodies are receiving different messages, and those messages are internalized, and often go right through the gut. And then depending on how the food is absorbed, it has to be sent to your skin cells. And if the signals are messed up, you end up with abnormal skin, which for many looks like eczema. Katie: Got it. That makes sense. And I mean, I think we’re seeing these even…I’ve seen young, young babies, even with eczema. So these are problems that can start really early on, right? Dr. Ana-Maria: It is, like we were saying, it’s an epidemic. The rates of eczema in 1970s were like 1 in 15, maybe 1 in 20. We’re now seeing rates as 1 in 5. And in some nationalities, in some countries, it’s 1 in 3. You know, it’s not okay. And it’s gotten…and it’s being seen younger and younger these days. Katie: Wow. Okay. Gotcha. So, let’s start with what’s the first step when someone comes to you? I know that you’re a pediatrician as well. I’m sure you’ve seen many, many kids struggling with eczema. What is the first step when you have someone new come in? Dr. Ana-Maria: When I first see them, I discuss really, kind of, things that we’re talking about, the pathology of it, because most that you see in the media, and on social media, and out there in blog world is that it’s a topical issue. And so we start with a mindset that we’re gonna have to work from the inside out, and that there’s not one more cream. You know, in 2017, I saw reports that people spent $37.7 billion on topical treatments for eczema when compared to things for cancer and chemotherapy at $48 billion. So eczema is almost costing us as much as chemotherapy, which is insane to me, which means the parents are searching continuously for what is the next topical lotion or potion that we can put. So our first discussion is like, you know what? The reason that the lotions and potions are not working is because we gotta start from the inside out and we need to look at your child’s diet. And that usually is our first step and it’s probably the hardest. Katie: Yeah, especially with younger ones. I remember that from working with my son. What are some of the big dietary, kind of, red flags that you see, or triggers that seem to be relatively common? I know it’s very individualized based on the gut but are there ones that are more common? Dr. Ana-Maria: Oh, absolutely. Processed foods are number one and followed right closely behind by sugar. I have…One of my families, actually, I just saw him in clinic a couple of days ago and the dad was like, “I watched your video on eczema for kids and you talked about sugar. So I started looking at my diet and I decreased my sugar significantly before, you know, the pandemic.” And he’s like, “All my skin issues went away. And then this Christmas, I got really cavalier and so I did a free for all because it’s Christmas,” and he’s like, “You know what happened? My eczema came back.” And I’m excited when that happens, not because it happens because people can actually see the power of food. So, processed foods are number one. And, you know, we’ve become a world of convenience foods. And it’s easy and we’re busy. And, you know, I have three kids, you have six kids, and probably folks who are listening have multiple children, and we have busy jobs and busy lives, and we’re running in a million directions. So convenience foods have become the norm. And they’re just so full of preservatives, and food coloring, and additives that a lot of times we don’t even know what they mean. And really, everything has been now filled with sugar because sugar makes everything taste delicious. And, you know, in the 1980s, it was the low-fat trend. And everybody was like, “Oh, must do low-fat.” Well, when they removed fat out of the products, well, they had to add sugar because if you take the fat and no sugar, it tastes like, well, bark or doodoo, awful. And so they added all the sugar. So now our children are continuously blasted with processed foods and sugar. So those are my number one and two. And fun fact, in my eczema course, I have parents that come in, they’re like, “Listen, we’ve tried this diet, and we tried this other diet.” And they’ve never decreased their processed foods or sugar. And those are the first steps they go through. They’re like, “Oh my gosh, that made the world of difference,” like, blown away by these two steps. And I would love to say they’re simple, they’re super hard. Katie: Yeah, I feel like simple is not always easy. And someone I really admire is Naval Ravikant, he says, “Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices, easy life.” It’s like, you know, the things that really matter and that make the difference aren’t always the easy ones but they’re worthwhile. Do you see gluten and dairy or secondary ones like eggs and peanuts come as triggers pretty often? Dr. Ana-Maria: Oh, yes. And then followed after the processed foods and sugar, then dairy is next in line, followed by gluten, eggs, and nuts, and actually in that order. Because we’ve seen them to become…They are in the top eight allergen foods. And there’s a lot of literature to show that a lot of children respond very positively with resolving eczema when they remove those different foods. Katie: And I’m curious, I know with my son it was not a lifelong intervention. We had to be really careful about that for a while we really helped intensively focus on his gut. And as he’s gotten older and as he’s had, like, really strong dietary habits since he was about 2, he’s actually been able to now consume a lot of these things from really good sources, not processed sources, but he can consume certain types of dairy, no problem at all, things like that. Do you find that, like, if you really address the root causes, eventually, there is a chance kids can actually handle some of these foods? Dr. Ana-Maria: Oh, absolutely. And I think probably that’s a huge misconception in the holistic world is, like, “Well, let me remove…” So you know, I have a lot of my mamas that are, like, well-versed, well-researched and, like, you know, “I know about processed food. I know about sugar. I know about dairy, gluten.” And they’ll remove the different things but they don’t do much to rebuild the gut because we gotta rebuild it. We gotta rebalance it, repopulate it. It’s a whole lot of stuff that needs to be happening in order to not only cure eczema but, like you said, we gotta bring the foods back because the goal is not that we’re gonna have our children be deprived of food for the rest of their lives so they don’t keep their eczema coming back. The goal is we rebuild the gut so that children can be able to tolerate the various foods probably in different quantities, in different moderations, like you said, different quality of foods because not all food is created equal. And then we want them to grow up just like everybody else, making smart choices for their body and seeing which foods fit with their, you know, systemic makeup compared to their friends. So the goal is to bring them back. And most of the time, except for the people that come in and they have anaphylaxis to foods. So if I have a youngster that has anaphylaxis to peanuts, that’s gonna take a whole lot longer, it’s a whole different ballgame, compared to the youngsters that we remove the foods we talked about and their eczema gets better, we rebuild the gut, repopulate and replenish it, and then we’re able to bring the foods back. Much to everybody’s astonishment, they’re like, you know…Because we had these before, but we just do it differently on the backside. Katie: I’m curious if there is a connection potentially with the gut bacteria thing to how babies are born as well. And I ask because my son who had eczema was my only C-section and it was placenta previa. So it was completely not avoidable. And I didn’t know then what I know now about the gut bacteria transfer during the birthing process. But I noticed that there seems like, at least people I know in my personal life, a stronger correlation of the potential for things like eczema with babies who are born during C-section or moms who had complications and ended up with a lot of antibiotics. Dr. Ana-Maria: Oh, my gosh, and I think it starts even earlier. There’s actually studies coming out of New Zealand, and I just saw a study coming on at Norway where they’re specifically focusing on Lactobacillus rhamnosus, which is a specific probiotic. And they give it to pregnant moms to see if there’s a correlation with decreasing the children being able to have less eczema later on in life. And in a couple of studies with women that were about 500, over 500 pregnant women, they showed that using Lactobacillus rhamnosus compared to other probiotic strains was able to decrease the risk of the children developing eczema by 50%. So I think it become…It’s even earlier than birth. And then just like you said, I’m seeing a tremendous correlation between baby’s born via C-section and eczema. Though interestingly, when we look in the literature, the studies don’t really support that. They support that C-sections are correlated with food allergies, asthma, and other allergic issues, but not specifically eczema. However, I’m seeing a different story in my practice. And a fun fact is a new bacteria…it’s not a new, it’s actually an old bacteria. But in 1960s and before, our babies were all populated with B. infantis, this is bifidobacterium infantis, and all the babies had them in their guts. And scientists decided recently, like, “Let’s look at the baby’s guts and see what they’re populated with.” And, you know, when I was trained, it was like, “Oh, guts are sterile. Babies are born with sterile guts.” And that’s not really true. Anyway, so, now B. infantis has virtually disappeared from American babies’ guts at birth. It’s gone. And, you know, there’s a lot of speculation on, is it the maternal diet? Is it the antibiotics and the meats? Is it all the Lysol and bleach we’re putting everywhere, right? And the other thing was that it was shown that in mamas that have B. infantis, the baby has to be born vaginally in order to get it from mom. And here’s a fun fact for everyone. One of the reasons that we postulate that babies when they’re born, they’re born facedown is to eat mom’s poop. That’s so disgusting but stay with me. The B. infantis is in mom’s gut, in the poop, as is in her vagina, and the babies that are born facedown are more colonized with the B. infantis than babies that are born via C-section differently. And, you know, there’s a huge trend out there for mamas to get enemas and stuff to make sure you don’t have the poo accident on the delivery table. Well, it turns out that actually is an evolutionary thing that is important for our babies. So, out of the two bacteria, I would say the Lactobacillus rhamnosus and B. infantis are the two big players…Oh, and another great fun fact, I just finished writing a blog, so I have a lot of nerd facts on the B. infantis. But human breast milk makes a very specific oligosaccharide, which is basically a form of sugar. And it’s only purpose is to feed B. infantis. It serves no other purpose in the environment or in the human body except to feed B. infantis. And I mean, when we look at the evolution of what’s going on, the way our babies were before and that less significant chronic disease compared to our babies today plagued by eczema and other issues, and we see these key players missing, you know, just makes you wonder, is it really there’s no difference or there really is a connection? I mean, I’m going with there’s a really strong connection between our gut bacteria and our children’s eczema. Katie: I agree. And I’ve seen that play out, like I mentioned with my son, but also as a doula. I have been at quite a few births. And a lot of those, at least six, I think, I had moms who knew they were gonna need to have a C-section. And so they basically pre-scheduled, there’s a whole process for this. And I can link to what I’ve talked about before in this but of helping seek the baby’s gut if they’re not born vaginally. Or also interesting correlation here, my last two daughters were born vaginally, but they were born breech. And because they were breached, their head was turned a different way. And, of course, their body left mine before they’re head did. And so the microbial transfer didn’t happen the exact same way. And we had some minor food intolerances with them early on that we had to, kind of, improve their gut to reverse as well. And so I think there is a really important microbial connection there. And I think we’re only starting to really learn just how important it is. It kind of cracks me up some of the births I’ve been at when you even bring that up and doctors, kind of, get grossed out. I’m like, “You are at births all day long. You know how this actually happens. It’s not a sterile process by any means and it’s not supposed to be.” But I think we’re gonna keep learning a lot more about this. And I think it’s good for parents to be aware of to know if that is how your babies enter the world, it’s good to have that knowledge to be proactive about their gut health or even if they’re born, you know, posterior, sunny side up, or just breech, there’s things you might wanna do to help support their gut really early on. Are there other things you recommend to parents starting in those first weeks and months, even with babies that can be helpful for the gut? Dr. Ana-Maria: Oh, yeah, one of the other things that a lot of parents don’t know about is about Tylenol and acetaminophen. There is a very strong correlation between using Tylenol or acetaminophen in children and their risk of developing eczema. It was an elegant study done looking at children of all ages, including teenagers, and how many doses of Tylenol they had over a year. Some had none. Some had once a month for 12 months. Some had more doses. And the more doses of Tylenol, the stronger the correlation and the higher the risk of developing eczema, up to 99% risk of developing eczema in teenagers who are using Tylenol on a regular basis. That is so scary because, you know, we have a fear of fever, we have fear of teething, we have fear of pain in the U.S. I had the privilege of working in New Zealand for a year-and-a-half, where people just accept pain. They were like, “Well, when you live life and you fall out of a tree, you’re gonna have pain.” And so, they are less likely to take medications. In the U.S., we are so pain adverse, that we are just giving our children Tylenol like it’s going out of style, not to mention the fear of fever. And another one that is not well-known is actually the correlation between reflux medicines and eczema, mind-blowing because, again, fussy babies, colicky babies, oftentimes we reach for an anti-reflux medication, which actually hurts B. infantis if we’re gonna go back to that guy. But if we’re using anti-reflux medication instead of dietary lifestyle modifications, we’re adversely affecting the child’s gut, which then puts them at high risk for developing eczema. And for folks out there, one of the things that I wanna caution you is when we research stuff, so if you go “top causes of eczema” and it’s like, you know, dry air, cold air, topical things, maybe dairy come into it, you don’t see Tylenol and Zantac. But when you search, “Is there a correlation between Tylenol and eczema?” and your, you know, Google page blows up, oftentimes our research is biased by forces that we don’t know and don’t understand why I don’t understand them. And so, when we’re researching stuff, it’s very interesting how different stuff comes to light depending on how you look it up. Katie: That is so fascinating and important to know about the reflux risk as well. Are there other things early on that we need to know about, like when kids start getting introduced to food? I know, for instance, I’ve worked with a company that looked at the research on early allergen introduction and realized that, like, completely avoiding certain foods can be as problematic as starting them too early. And so I know they advocate, like, very small dose introduction in a very controlled, careful way to help avoid actual allergies. But then I know beyond that, like, are there things that are supportive of the gut when babies start reaching that food age? Dr. Ana-Maria: Well, you know, several studies in that genre actually changed my medical practice when I was practicing like a general pediatrician because they showed the studies coming out of Israel when they were doing small dose controlled foods, high allergen foods to children, they did have less allergies than the children that we did it, let’s call it the American way where we’re like, “Oh, don’t do peanuts until they’re older. Don’t do eggs until 1. Don’t do strawberries until 1.” And so, a lot of the medical care has changed based on all the studies and more studies have come out to actually support that. In the beginning, the things that I…You know, breast milk, like we just talked about is best. And even if…you know, not everybody’s body is able to produce breast milk. And we know that. And it’s unfortunate. It is hard. If you’re able to even produce one ounce is very helpful because of all the different benefits that we already talked about. When we look at different formulas, pay attention to the formula, speak with your doctor, make sure that you’re getting formulas that the first ingredient is not corn syrup. And then when we start solid food introduction, I’m about root vegetables, and I’m not about rice cereal, and I don’t like oatmeal. And thankfully, never even in my traditional practice, I’ve never advocated for rice cereal because, well, it has arsenic. And then humans have added iron and made it seem like, oh, babies need to have cereal because of iron but we’re giving them processed foods as their first food introduction. And to me, that’s ludicrous. And I go with root vegetables. Always start with the vegetables. And I’m not like, “Oh must do it with this vegetable.” I’m like, “Vegetables and then alternate fruits, vegetables, fruits,” and then adding in your high allergen foods to that. But I’m all about whole foods, real foods. And, you know, a lot of folks get overwhelmed. When you have a lot of kids, you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not making my own food.” I’m like, “It doesn’t have to be hard. You could just smoosh an avocado. You could smoosh a banana. If you guys are making sweet potatoes for dinner, smoosh it up with your fork and put it in the fridge and that’s the baby’s food.” It doesn’t have to be complicated. I’m not saying that there’s no great companies out there that can help you make your life easier in that. I’m just giving examples of foods that you can make at home. But I’m all about whole foods. I’m really not a big fan of the teething crackers and the teething biscuits. Squeezy packs can also be a problem because a lot of them are filled with citric acid, sometimes natural flavors, sometimes just weird ingredients. I don’t even know what they are. So I caution you with that. We wanna keep the children having real ingredients in their diet and that will keep their guts nice and healthy so that we can prevent the development of eczema. Katie: And you also mentioned a somewhat controversial topic, and I’m so glad you brought it up, and that was fevers, and if they should be reduced, and if so how they should be reduced. I’ve written about this before and surprisingly, gotten some of the most strong reactions on both sides about this particular topic. And you are much more qualified than I am to talk about this. I just have parental experience. But from my research, there’s so so much that goes into considering what to do about a fever and the fact that the body’s immune system does this for a reason. So, it may be like at least the first line of defense shouldn’t be just jumping into reducing the fever necessarily, but like I said, you’re much more qualified to talk about this than I am. Can you walk us through your approach to fevers and what parents need to know? Dr. Ana-Maria: Yeah, and just you know, I also get heat for it too. So you’re not alone. But when we look at fever, that’s the body’s response. The way I usually see it, I’m like, “You know what? Let’s use the flu virus for a second.” Flu virus cannot live by itself. It could survive on a surface for a short period of time, but then it needs a human body to replicate itself. So for simplicity purposes, I’m like, “Okay, the flu virus and its 50 friends come into your body and they use your body as a photocopying machine.” The human body’s like, “No, we’re not gonna have anything to do with that.” So it raises the internal thermostat for two reasons. Number one, it’s gonna stop the photocopying machine. And number two, it actually stimulates the immune system for making more antibodies, turning them around quicker and making them stronger. So we need fever to make more antibodies faster. And if you let the child have a fever and let the body do its thing, the body stops the replication. So now your body has to fight 50 viral particles. And I’m doing this super simplistic. Now, if we are giving the child Tylenol and Motrin because we’re so afraid of, you know, brain damage, seizures, and such things, which we’re gonna talk about in a second, we then allow the photocopy machine to turn back on, now the virus is able to replicate itself to billions. Our immune system is sluggish and worn out because it needs the high temperatures in order to do the job. So now, the virus has billions of particles that our body has to overcome, which leads us to be sick for like two, three weeks, and it’s with no end in sight. Parents are petrified of brain damage. In a neurologically normal chart, the human body will not allow your temperature to get above 105.5. At 105.5, you do not have brain damage. Also, the febrile seizures are a huge concern of parents. There is no amount of Tylenol or Motrin to stop a febrile seizure. A febrile seizure usually happens if a child is doing fine playing, they have a seizure, you pick them up because they have a seizure, and all of a sudden you notice they’re burning. It’s because it’s the rate of rise. And many studies have been done to see, you know, how can we alternate? What if you alternate Tylenol? What about Motrin? What if…? And none of it has shown to actually prevent febrile seizures. If your child experiences febrile seizures, please speak to your doctor on how to dose medications in this case. And if your child has neurological abnormalities, you’re a different case, please speak with your doctor. In all other children, the body needs the fever and it needs to do its work. The other thing that happens is kids look like, you know, laying around on the sofa, they’re not doing anything, that’s actually the body saying, “I need my energy to fight this virus. Please don’t play.” Children don’t eat when they’re feeling unwell. That’s because the body says, “Please don’t eat because I need all my energy in order to fight this virus,” on top of some other things. But I think the paranoia is, like, “Oh, my gosh, look at my child, has fever, is laying around not doing anything, I must medicate him,” because as a parent we always feel like we have to do something. And when the kids pop off the couch, and they’re playing, and they’re great, we’ll rejoice. However, six hours later, they go down again with fever and now we panic because we think something is horribly wrong. And it’s just the immune system trying to overcome the medications that we are trying to do because we’re afraid. Katie: That was such a concise explanation of that, and I hope it offers parents a lot of peace of mind because certainly, it’s scary as a parent if your child is suffering in any way, but especially febrile seizures can be very scary but also such a good reminder that the immune system knows what it’s doing and fever serves a purpose. Back to the topic of eczema, though. So we’ve gotten, kind of, a good primer on diet and especially, like, early introduction and what to know about that. What are some of the other factors as kids get older, or if a child has maybe already very severe eczema, what are some other things that can help? Because you already mentioned that people think of eczema as a topical problem. And I know firsthand, nothing topical worked for my son. It wasn’t until we addressed the internal that he got better. And at that point, he didn’t need the topical stuff. But what are some of the other things that parents need to know to start that process? Dr. Ana-Maria: Other things that in some kids that are so severely affected and the parents have done everything, histamines are a big problem. And what are histamines? Histamines are, like, little tiny, I call them like confetti and they hang out in mast cells. And so basically mast cells look like balloons with confetti and they patrol our body. And they patrol our body in order to defend us. There actually is a great purpose. So, you have an invading virus, the mast cells explode, the confetti, which is the histamines, explode, and they call in other immune cells in order to fight this battle. Same thing, if you come in close contact with pollen, and mold, and other things. And some kids, they have so many mast cells and mast cells are so incredibly sensitive that everything triggers them. So there’s children that they eat a grape, or they eat pineapple, or they eat a cracker, or they drink water, and they have eczema. They’re sensitive to everything, you know, in our course, where, like, they’re allergic to life because the parents are continuously trying to figure out which thing, which thing? It’s not one thing. It’s that their system is over-responsive. It’s just so incredibly sensitive that anything they come in contact with may just explode. So then, we look into factors of, okay, well, is your child consuming a high histamine diet? What is your family history? Could they be lacking in specific digestive enzymes that could be helping in curtailing this issue? Do we have any other gut imbalances because where do the histamine reaction really all begin? In the gut. And then also, do we have anything else in the environment like pets? Mold is a huge…I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we are a moldy, moldy place. And so, you know, is mold is a factor in your house? Because if we can decrease inflammation on the inside, but what about our environment? You know, what are you cleaning with? What kind of things are you doing your laundry…not specifically because it’s irritating eczema but the more toxins that we’re exposed to from our food, lotions, potions, chemicals in our environment, that can trigger eczema. And the other thing that is so under-recognized during our pandemic is stress. The stress is out of control. Mental health is…We are at the brink of massive issues. And a lot of times, well, kids can be stressed but I’ll tell you something, when the mom is stressed, it goes right to the babies. And the babies…We have documented…We have scientific evidence to show that there’s an electromagnetic field, that may sound hokey to some people, but we are able to communicate with our children, and our spouses, and our friends from 3 feet away without having to say a word. So, you know, imagine the last time that your partner came into the house, you heard the door open, and just the way the door opened and closed, you know it’s gonna be…something bad happened and they’re tense. And they walk into the room, and then you’re tense, and then the kids become tense, without him or her ever saying a word. And so, we have to really hone in on our stress from the social isolation, from the Zoom school, from Zoom work, from all this other stuff because our stress affects our cortisol levels. And our cortisol levels affect our histamines and our other inflammatory markers in our body, which can make us have eczema issues even worse. Katie: I know you talk about this in-depth in your course but how can parents start addressing the histamine issues? Because certainly for kids that have that, especially, like you said, the ones who are allergic to life, it seems like a daunting process. Dr. Ana-Maria: You know, I gotta say, a lot of parents feel like they have to do this all on their own because they’ve lost faith in the physicians they’re seeing or the practitioners that they’re seeing and they’re like, “I must do it. I must heal.” And I’m all about, you know, trying to educate, and empower, and inspire families to do it all on their own. When it gets this difficult, it’s really important to pair up with somebody that specializes in this because it is hard. And it’s even better to have a community of people that are speaking your same language or going through the same thing. Doing everything alone, and now it’s highlighted by our social isolation in the great big world, is exhausting. You know, and I also have a question, I’m like, “When did motherhood require an MD degree?” You know, like, and I have a political science degree and a nutrition degree. It’s exhausting. And so the first thing is I’m like, you know, find a community that speaks your language so you can be in a together. Find a provider that can direct you because the issue is children can become malnourished if we’re not doing this properly. You can totally pull up a blog on histamine intolerance. There’s some great blogs out there. I’ll tell you the first few things that are high in histamines are gonna be your processed foods, like we talked about, gluten and dairy, your kombuchas and pickles, leftovers, cold cuts, and then, of course, you go to bananas, and avocados, and strawberries, and then you wanna cry in your pillow because you’re giving your children fabulous food but yet they may be affecting your child. So, just proceed with caution when it comes to histamine diets in children, specifically, because we are not all nutritionists. You know, people go to school for this. And it is a delicate balance so we don’t have the children deprived in one nutrient because we’re trying to avoid histamines. Katie: Gotcha. Okay. That makes complete sense. This episode is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the superfood mushroom company that I have been talking about and loving for many years! I love all of their products, especially their coffee infused with brain-boosting lion’s mane and their reishi elixir at night for awesome sleep. I’ve also recently been trying their protein powder and really love their peanut butter flavor. Peanut Butter is one of my weaknesses, and I love that I get all the flavor of it in this protein packed format rather than the super-dense calorie version of regular peanut butter. Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact formulation or exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com. So we talked about things and triggers to avoid. And you mentioned a few foods, especially to add in. Are there any supplements or nutrient deficiencies that tend to line up with eczema that parents need to be aware of? Dr. Ana-Maria: Yeah. Vitamin D. And I know the vitamin D has been hot in the press these days. But now the data on vitamin D supplementation and vitamin D deficiency associated with eczema is mixed. You’ll have studies that will show you what you wanna see and studies that show you like you wanna see. But whenever I look at medical literature and that data is mixed, I’m always looking to see but did it help some people? Because supplementing vitamin D, and you need to know what kind of vitamin D to make sure that is a good quality vitamin D, doesn’t have other chemicals or additives in it, it is very beneficial in a lot of kids with eczema. Is it in everybody? No. Nothing is in everyone. There’s not one thing that I can say and be like, “That is the one thing that’s gonna cure.” No, it’s a mixture of things, that’s why we’re talking about all of them. So, vitamin D, I find very beneficial. And I do ask that if possible to get your children’s vitamin D levels checked. It just helps you be more mathematical about how much supplementation we need to do for vitamin D if possible. Then we have zinc, mixed data on this as well. But I am very encouraged by some of the studies coming out of 2014 from topical zinc to oral supplementation of zinc sulfate specifically. And then there’s a company out there that actually has zinc-infused clothing. And there’s studies to show that actually having zozon like a jammies or dry wraps, decreases kids’ risk of having eczema flares. Omega-3, essential fatty acids, of course, you guessed it, there’s mixed reviews on that one as well. But they are a portion of children that do beautifully well by adding Omega-3s, which are essentially fatty acids. Again, you add them as a supplement on the inside. And you can actually use them as a topical emolient because they’re so beneficial to so many things, including brain health. Probiotics, and knowing specifically which probiotics because sometimes if your child is dealing with histamine overload, some probiotics can make those symptoms worse. That’s why it’s great to speak with somebody so you can know which probiotics are right for your child. I do use digestive enzymes, a very specific kind. There’s one small study that showed a benefit for using digestive enzymes in children with eczema. And so, I do use those, and then I’ll use some botanical herbals in children to help cleanse their gut and rebalance it. Because oftentimes, you know, as you know, for every 1 human cell, we are 10 bacteria cells. So what is about 10% and actually, and that’s from the National Institute of Health. But there’s a very fine balance in bacteria. So if our gut is populated with more bad guys, we’re gonna have more eczema and chronic issues versus if we have more good guys. So, I will use botanical herbals in order to try to rebalance the gut so we can get back in a symbiotic relationship with our friends. Katie: Got it. And like I said, I know you go in-depth because there’s so many different factors that come into play here. So I assume every case is somewhat different, but you help parents really dial down and have a partner to work with in figuring that out. I agree with you, motherhood should not have to have a medical degree, although I feel like I have so many listeners who for the sake of their children have become extremely well-educated in different areas. Just I think…Like, there’s a joke that no one does better research than a mom when it comes to her kids, even the FBI. But I think the best-case scenarios happen when you have a well-educated parent working with a well-educated practitioner. And that gives the kids the best hope of recovery in this point. And we’ve touched on this a little bit but I wanna go a little bit more specific also about the conventional medical approach to eczema because I also have heard from so many parents who have gone to doctors, and tried everything, and really been diligent, and still aren’t seeing results. And I feel like maybe there’s some holes when it comes to modern medicine and not really addressing all these root causes that you’ve talked about. Dr. Ana-Maria: It totally is. There’s so much out there. And I just wanna go back to the one thing that you said about us having our MD degree. Actually, my children are the exact reason why I’m a functional medicine doctor is because of their chronic disease, I did all my research, and I got educated, and certified in functional medicine because they were suffering with chronic disease, and I didn’t get the answers that I was hoping from the traditional model. And here we are. So, yeah, so I have to say my children are actually my greatest medical accomplishment and the reason why I do holistic medicine now. But going back to the holes…And a lot of times when I talk to the parents and they’re like, “We’ve tried everything,” well, everything that you know to try. And a lot of times, we’ll say, “Well, I went to a specialist…” And I’m not knocking on any schools. There are amazing schools out there. But the more prestigious the school, the more we’re like, “Oh, but I went to see this doctor and they’re from…” let’s say Hopkins, let’s say Harvard, let’s say from…And I’m not bashing any schools, I’m just giving examples. And they just say topical stuff and they do the traditional model things. And they’re like, “Well, if there were other options, my doctor would know because he went to a fabulous medical school.” And I went to a fabulous medical school too. I did not know until I did more research and I crossed paths with Dr. Mark Hyman. And that’s when I was like, “It is true. You know, people should eat more vegetables.” So whenever you’re feeling like you have gotten all the answers, the question is, is that all that you know because that’s all the people that you hang out with? I didn’t know anything about functional medicine and I didn’t know anything about treating my children’s eczema, asthma, constipation, ADHD until I took a different approach. And it was accidental how I stumbled into the whole thing. Because there’s so many factors between your lifestyle factors and nutrition, the environment that you live in, like we talk about, the stress that is around. And sometimes there is an immune issue that may be so much deeper that we need to look further than what we’re normally trained to look into. Katie: I agree. And I’m gonna have a link in the show notes. I know you guys have a specialized link with a specialized discount for anybody listening who has anyone struggling with eczema. But talk a little bit about your course because I think it’s also so timely right now when in-person visits have gotten more difficult, even with primary care doctors just because of all of the current climate and everything going on. And so, this is a great option that works from home and it really gives parents the power and the tools to start finding results for their kids right away. But talk a little bit more specifically about your course. Dr. Ana-Maria: The way I put the course together is basically after treating, you know, hundreds of kids with eczema, and doing all this lab work, and doing food sensitivity tests and poop tests, and doing supplements, and whatever, I was like, “There’s a common thread to all these.” I’m like, “You know, we can reach a broader audience and we can help more mamas help their children by doing an online course.” And I wanted to make it so unique that…and there’s really no other course like there. And what it is, is actually you have modules. So you can do your modules and you go from understanding specifically, because the first question that everyone has, why does my child have eczema? So that’s actually the first thing that you go through, an exercise in the course where I help you identify exactly where the root causes in your child’s eczema. And then we go down the list of, like, understanding of how food is related to your skin cells. And then we go into the food eliminations. But all of this is actually side by side with my health coach and myself, and we walk the walk with you, as well as the other mamas. So, when you take…So you have the option of just doing the modules and you can do it all yourself. But I so strongly believe in a community and in helping one another and learning from one another. I don’t know everything. I know that there’s mamas, just like you said, that are so researching their niche that they teach me, you know, all the time as well. And so, you go through your modules that are about 10 minutes each, you have PDFs, you have supplements, you have dosing, you have the side effects. Like, everything is explained to you. We give you recipes, and snacks, and all the different stuff. But really, I think what is the jewel of them all is that every Monday at 2:00 on Facebook, my health coach gets on and she talks to my mamas about all the different struggles from parenting, to food, to picky eaters, to those who have adverse reactions to different things. And on Thursdays at 2:00 Eastern Time, I get on my Facebook Live with all my mamas where I address medical questions. So, not only are you doing modules, but you actually can get personalized care. So, when the children are not doing exactly how you’d expect based on the course, like my mamas come on there, and we fine-tune stuff, and somebody’s like, “Well, you know, I read about topical B12. What can you tell me about that?” I’m like, “Okay. Great. Let me look into that.” You know, we’ve talked about zeolite. We talk about mold. We talk about all these other things that are not even in the course because my mamas want information. They want, you know, more stuff. They’re sponges, and then we have a direction. And as I said, they teach me some stuff. And I’m like, “I had no idea about the goat milk flakes,” that we learned last Thursday. You know, all stuff that then we can share with other mamas in the community is what a supporting one another. So when somebody’s doing poorly, all the other mamas are jumping in, and we’re having a discussion, and brainstorming. And when I brainstorm with that one mom, it usually shows beneficial for the other moms. They’re like, “Oh my gosh, that’s exactly what I was gonna ask,” or, “I didn’t even think about that.” So, it is a very collegiate way of doing an online course. And basically, you get to see a health coach and a physician twice weekly. Katie: That’s awesome. Well, like I said, that link will be in the show notes for you guys listening, especially if you’re exercising or driving. All of that at wellnessmama.fm, you’ll find all the links and the discount code there. And another question that’s somewhat unrelated that I love to ask at the end of interviews is if there is a book or a number of books that have had a profound influence on your life or been really inspirational to you, and if so, what they are and why. Dr. Ana-Maria: The latest book that I have taken to heart is actually “Fiber Fueled” by Dr. Will B. Like, I mess up his last name every single time. He has been super inspirational. He is a gastroenterologist, traditionally trained, and he talks about plant-based diet. I am not fully plant-based. I do a lot of plants, but I’m not plant-based. And one of the takeaway from his book has been plant points. And so right now on Instagram, we have a big challenge going on with plant points. And the children are obsessed because, you know, who’s gonna give up a good competition between siblings? So I’m having children that have not been eating a lot of plants, generally speaking, doing amazing because they wanna outcompete their siblings. So his book has been really fantastic. And the other books, like I said earlier, Dr. Mark Hyman’s books, which actually I accidentally stumbled upon when I was trying to get my children feeling better. And what he refers to in his books is how we use our food to be our medicine. And I can’t really pick one specific one. If I were, perhaps the one that actually speaks to…because, like, what should you eat? Because a lot of people are like, “Okay, great. So now I heard about the different oils, what olive oil should I have?” “Okay. Great. I should do free-range, red meat because of the labels, how do I read a label?” And I found his book to be so helpful in helping navigate our process world. Katie: Awesome suggestions. I will put links to all of those in the show notes as well so you guys can find, and read, and learn. But Dr. Ana-Maria, thank you so much. I think this is such an important topic. I know you have so many more resources available on your website. I’ll make sure those are linked as well. But I hope that this has helped a lot of parents and will help a lot of kids. And I’m just really appreciative of you doing this work to help so many. Dr. Ana-Maria: I’m so excited to be here. And you do such amazing work for so many families. And I am honored to be part of your tribe and talking to all the moms because there’s so much more to doing medicine and to everything that we do for our children. And I hope as a community that we just come out just healthier on top. Katie: Absolutely. I’ve always said moms are a force of nature. And I think when you have amazing moms in connection with amazing practitioners like you, then amazing things happen, and very grateful to you for being here today, and very grateful, of course, to all of you for listening, for sharing your most valuable resources, your time and your energy with both of us. We’re so glad that you were here, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening. Thanks to Our Sponsors This episode is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the superfood mushroom company that I have been talking about and loving for many years! I love all of their products, especially their coffee infused with brain-boosting lion’s mane and their reishi elixir at night for awesome sleep. I’ve also recently been trying their protein powder and really love their peanut butter flavor. Peanut Butter is one of my weaknesses, and I love that I get all the flavor of it in this protein packed format. Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact formulation or exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com.

Dr. Mark Hyman hardly needs introduction, but just in case, he’s an internationally recognized speaker, 13-time New York Times bestselling author, and renowned physician in the field of functional medicine. Dr. Hyman is here talking about his newest book The Pegan Diet: 21 Practical Principles for Reclaiming Your Health in a Nutritionally Confusing World, a paleo-vegan book that promises to end the dietary wars once and for all! Dr. Hyman delves into the roots of functional medicine today, and why a nutritious diet isn’t a one-size-fits-all approach. Take notes on this one… it is jam-packed with advice you won’t want to miss! Episode Highlights: The Pegan Diet With Mark Hyman MD What paleo and vegan diets have in common How Dr. Hyman’s views on food have changed over the years, and why The role of phytochemicals (and why you can’t always get enough from food alone) What happens to our immune systems as they age Why insulin resistance is the most common condition affecting Americans right now How to eat if you want to protect the planet The new label to look for on food (regenerative organic) Success stories from his practice Food rules we can all agree on (and end the diet wars) And more! Resources We Mention Dr. Mark Hyman GetFarmacy.com Dr. Hyman blog post: Why I Am a Pegan (Paleo-Vegan) The Pegan Diet 21 Lessons for the 21st Century Other Mark Hyman books More From Wellness Mama 335: How the Food Industry Preys on Children & How to Fix It (With Dr. Mark Hyman) 160: What the Heck Should I Actually Eat? With Dr. Mark Hyman 416: Q&A: Supplements, EMFs, Protein Snacks, First Principles, and More 405: Eat Smarter: How to Use Food to Reboot Your Metabolism With Shawn Stevenson 402: How to Use Glucose as a Continuous Health Marker for Metabolic Health With Dr. Casey Means of Levels 414: Ancestral Parenting, Biological Norms, Wild Food, and Foraging With Arthur Haines What I Learned From Wearing a Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) for a Month Is Organic Food Worth The Price? What the Label Really Means Did you enjoy this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Olipop, delicious soda that is actually good for you. Did you know that most Americans consume more than the recommended daily intake of sugar, by a lot? And sweetened drinks like soda are the leading source of extra sugar? And most of us also don’t get enough fiber! I’ve found a delicious answer to both of these problems and it’s called Olipop. I was so excited to find a truly healthy soda alternative! Olipop uses functional ingredients that combine the benefits of prebiotics, plant fiber and botanicals to support your microbiome and benefit digestive health… and that taste just like soda without the junk! Olipop is much (much) lower in sugar than conventional sodas with only 2-5 grams of sugar from natural sources. No added sugar. Their Vintage Cola has just two grams of sugar as compared to a regular cola which has 39g of sugar. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal for the Wellness Mama podcast listeners. Receive 20% off plus Free Shipping on their best selling variety pack. This is a great way to try all of their delicious flavors and find your favorite. Go to drinkolipop.com/wellnessmama or use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout to claim this deal. This discount is only valid for their variety pack. Olipop can also be found in over 3,000 stores across the country, including Whole Foods, Sprouts, Kroger, Wegman’s and Erewhon. This episode is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals. They’re a company on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet with clean, effective products that really, really work. They’ve created a whole hive of products, all sourced from bee products and immune-loving essentials so that you can do your best all day every day. One of their products I especially love is called B.Chill. And it’s a CBD infused honey that I love and that my kids love, and it helps them sleep. It’s the ultimate combination of raw honey and hemp to help you get better R&R. And hemp is famous for its ability to help you unwind while raw honey supports restorative sleep. As an extra tip, a small sprinkle of salt on this honey really, really helps improve sleep. And unlike other relaxation alternatives, you can rest better knowing that there are no some side effects, you won’t feel groggy the next day. And B.Chill is completely non-psychoactive. It contains 0% THC, so you can enjoy it anytime, anywhere, and share it with your kids. If you’re ready to give it a try, check out Beekeeper’s Naturals and save 15% on your first order by going to beekeepersnaturals.com/wellnessmama. Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama” podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end, my new line of personal care products. I am here today again with Dr. Mark Hyman. You probably know of him. You’ve probably heard of him before. But if you haven’t, he is a practicing family physician, internationally recognized leader, speaker, educator in the field of functional medicine. He is the founder and director of the Ultra Wellness Center, the head of strategy and innovation at the Cleveland Clinic for Functional Medicine, and a 13-time “New York Times” bestselling author, among a laundry list of other resume items. We are here in this episode to talk about his new book in which he argues for a better dietary approach and an end to the diet wars that benefits all of us and the planet. It’s called “The Pegan Diet.” And he makes a strong case in this episode. He also really delves into some of the roots of functional medicine which he knows better than almost anyone in the world. So, as always, it was a fun interview. I know that you will learn a lot. So, let’s jump in. Dr. Hyman, welcome back. You’re much requested. Dr. Hyman: You know, thanks so much for having me again. Katie: I am excited to chat with you today, especially about this topic because I think it offers a lot of really important keys to ending the diet war and to personalization because for years I’ve been saying, we have all these different dietary approaches and we seem to argue for maybe like the 3% to 4% we don’t agree on when, in reality, there’s so much common ground. And I think if we focus on that, there’s a lot more to be learned. And I also think personalization is a big aspect. And you address both of those in your new book, which I definitely recommend. It’s linked in the show notes for you guys listening. But to start broad, walk us through the impetus for this book and what “The Pegan Diet” is. Dr. Hyman: Well, you know, I’ve been studying nutrition for over 40 years and practicing it for over 30 as a physician using food as medicine. And, you know, it’s really, over the years, we’ve seen so many dietary trends. It was low fat, and then it was, you know, low calorie, and then it was paleo, and vegan, and keto, and raw. And, you know, it was like every diet under the sun, and there was just so much controversy and confusion. And two things I realized, one was that, you know, there’s a core set of nutritional principles that we should all be focused on that are guides for how to eat well for life. And second, there’s differences in people, and that as a doctor, you get very humbled by seeing real people in the office with real issues. And, you know, somebody is dying to be a vegan, and it’s all in their framework and ideology, but their body just doesn’t like it, and vice versa. Some people wanna eat more fat, and they can’t because their body doesn’t respond well. So it really depends on each individual. So it’s really about personalization. And I was sitting on a panel once with a friend of mine who was a vegan cardiologist, and another guy was a paleo doc, and they were going back and forth at it, arguing and fighting. And I was in the middle like a ping pong ball, and I finally, you know, to break the ice, I said, “Hey, if you’re a paleo and you’re vegan, I must be pegan.” And everybody laughed and thought it was funny. And then I realized, wait a minute, they’re actually identical except for where to get to protein, animals or grains and beans. Otherwise, they both encourage whole foods and no processed foods. They both encourage good fats, and lots of fruit, nuts, and seeds, good oils, and no dairy and, you know, no industrial food. I mean, it’s really quite striking how much they’re similar compared to the standard American diet. So, you know, we need to just kind of back off a little bit and come up with a set of principles that is inclusive, that can be adaptable to different dietary preferences and different biological needs and individual differences. And so I, sort of, went down into the science and looked at, you know, what do we know? What do we know what we don’t know and how do we come up with a set of practical principles for reclaiming your health in a nutritionally confusing world? And that’s really about it. Katie: Yeah, I think that’s so important, especially that personalization aspect because that seems to be the recurring theme. And I think we can learn so much, like you said, from all of the different approaches, but at the end of the day, I’ve said on this podcast so many times, we are our own primary healthcare provider. We’re the ones putting food in our mouth. And you were one of the early voices really talking about food as medicine and bringing that functional medicine approach. Can you give us some examples of the way that food can either feed disease or feed health? I know, like you said, you have decades and decades of work in this space. Dr. Hyman: Yeah. I mean, the obvious, right, ones where if you eat too much sugar and starch, you can get diabetes and some resistance, heart disease, cancer, or if you’re eating, sort of, gluten and you have a sensitivity, you could get an autoimmune disease or if you’re having, you know, certain food sensitivities and migraines, you can be eliminating eggs. So that’s, sort of, one, sort of, obvious example. But when I think about it, I think about it in a much different way. You know, we know that there’s these basic components in food, right, protein, fat, carbs, fiber, vitamins, minerals. And so that’s, sort of, it right? And the truth is, there’s so much more in food that is regulating every single system in our body. In fact, you know, the plant kingdom has about 25,000 in edible plants, 25,000 phytochemicals that are designed to work with their biology to enhance our health and program our biology for health. So, for example, you know, let’s say, you know, today we’re exposed to a lot of environmental toxins because of pollution, pesticides, and petrochemicals, and our bodies have an increased burden of how to deal with it. Well, there are certain plants that actually help your liver detoxify and build an important molecule called glutathione. And this is something you really can’t easily get from food, you know, if you’re just eating, like, amino acids and fatty acids and, like, carbohydrates and, you know, just regular stuff that we eat. And it’s found in these phytochemicals that are in these plant compounds like broccoli, or collards, or kale, that whole cruciferous vegetable family, garlic and onions. And they upregulate these enzymes in liver called glutathione peroxidase or glutathione transferase. And these enzymes respond to these phytochemicals, we call them glucosinolates or sulforaphanes. And they, I mean, literally, make your body get rid of the chemicals through improving the function of your liver. That’s just one example. Another one that I really love, this is sort of a new one that I’ve learned is that, you know, immune systems age and we become, we call it immunosenescence, which means our immune system starts to age. And it’s usually around inflammation and inflammatory processes that happen in the body. And it turns out that your bone marrow has stem cells that produce your white blood cells. And there’s about a million produced every single minute. And that’s a lot of white blood cells. And those white blood cells have to be, you know, healthy in order for you to be healthy. But what happens often, the injury in the stem cells from poor diet, and stress, and toxins, and so forth, is that these stem cells will be injured, and then they’ll produce abnormal white blood cells. And those are called chips, and they go to circulation, and then they become known as zombie cells that, you know, literally are what they sound. They don’t die, and they just make you sick, and they cause inflammation, they cause heart disease, autoimmunity. Well, it turns out there’s a whole host of phytochemicals in plants that are effective against these zombie cells. And one of that unique plants is called Himalayan Tartary buckwheat, it’s, sort of, an example of how food is medicine where you think, you know, if you grow, like, soy or corn, these mono-crop fields where, you know, they’re basically chemically grown through pesticides, and herbicides, and fertilizers, and there’s almost no nutrients in the soil, and they don’t have harsh conditions, and they’re, sort of, like, coddled, in a sense. And when you look at his Himalayan Tartary buckwheat, it was grown in a wild, you know, like, Himalayan environment where there’s barely any water, and it’s high altitude, and it’s cold, and there’s drought, and there’s, like, you know, bad soil and these things just thrive. And it creates a whole host of defense mechanisms that are these phytochemicals in the plant. There’s many of them. One of them is called rutin or quercetin and other phytocannabinoids. And there’s 132-plus of these, some of them are over 100 times more potent than you find in any other plant. And it turns out that these buckwheat-derived, like, sort of, phytochemicals are amazing at killing these zombie cells and helping you rejuvenate your immune system, which is kind of really cool. So that’s just another example. And I could literally go through every basic system of the body, the gut, the immune system, you know, energy system, detoxification, your hormones, your structural system, and how food literally makes us do all the functions that our body does. It’s the most important drug we consume every day. Katie: Yeah, I love that point. And I think about that too when people doubt how big of an impact food can have, but yet they’ll take an ibuprofen and expect it to relieve pain that’s this tiny amount. Just I mean, food, I agree with you, is the most dramatic thing we can do. You also mentioned insulin resistance. And certainly, there’s been a lot more talk about insulin resistance and also about the glucose equation, in general. And even, it seems like continuous glucose monitors are getting more popular and more widespread right now. But walk us through insulin resistance. We know that that’s connected to certain types of chronic disease. But for anyone who’s not familiar, what is that and how do we deal with it? Dr. Hyman: Well, you know, this is basically the most common condition affecting Americans and increasingly the world right now. We have 88% of Americans that have been determined to be metabolically unhealthy, according to the, you know, government testing and surveys that are done regularly. That’s striking to me because 75% of us are overweight. That means about half of the skinny people are also metabolically unhealthy. And the question is why? And it has to do with the mountains of starch and sugar we eat every day, about a pound a day per person. That’s a lot. And now what that does is that drives up this hormone called insulin. It’s trying to get the blood sugar down as you start eating all the starch and sugar because, you know, when you eat flour, if you eat a bagel, or if you eat a piece of cake, or if you have a Coca-Cola and a piece of bread, they’re identical. In fact, the bread might be worse in terms of its glycemic load. So the key is really to understand that when the insulin goes high that your body then drives all the stored fat, all of the circulating, I mean, fuel in your blood into the fat cells. It makes them very inflamed. It produces all sorts of hormones. It makes you hungry. It slows your metabolism. It locks the fat in the fat cells. So it really creates this vicious cycle where all you do is pack on the weight in the belly and keep going up in this vicious circle and end up with a condition often known as pre-diabetes, and ultimately, type 2 diabetes. But you don’t even have to have any of that in order to actually have all these metabolic issues. And it makes you, you know, hungry, and tired, and crave sugar and carbs, and have resistance to weight loss because as long as your insulin is high, the fat is locked away. It cannot get out. It’s really, really tough to get it out. So you have to drop your insulin in order for you to actually lose weight. And that is really done by eating more fat and less starch, and sugar, and more protein, and lots of vegetables, and basically following the pegan diet. Katie: Awesome. Okay. So the other thing I think it’s important to delve into is there are all these different dietary approaches. You’ve touched on a couple of them. And certainly, there’s a lot of heated debate amongst them right now, things like the keto diet, autoimmune, paleo, carnivore seems to be a big part of the conversation right now. Can you explain how your protocol differs from those and if there’s any similarities or overlap we can learn from those? Dr. Hyman: Well, you know, I mean, listen, if carnivore diets work it’s because not necessarily they’re eating meat but because they’re not eating everything else that’s making them sick, right? If they’re not eating sugar, and additives, and processed food, and gluten, and dairy, and grains, and beans, and all the things that potentially can trigger people, that’s why you’ll see these benefits. And you’ll see the short-term, people go from, like, a traditional American diet or standard American diet to a vegan diet or to a paleo diet or whatever it is that people will do better. But it’s a question of what happens over time? And I think that, you know, the reason I wrote “The Pegan Diet” book is because there are principles that we can all agree on. I mean, we all agree we should be eating more whole foods. We all agree we should be not eating processed foods. We all agree we shouldn’t be loading up on a pound of starch and sugar per person per day. We all agree we should…I mean, 98% of us now agree we should be eating more good fats like olive oil, avocados, nuts, and seeds. And we all agree we should be, you know, if we’re eating animals, right, and some don’t believe we should be, but if we are, then we should be raising them humanely. We should be using regenerative practices so we restore the earth. We should be, you know, not…we should be having grass-finished or pasture-raised animals that are actually moving to forage and get the nutrients they need from the food and the earth, and not be pumped full of hormones, antibiotics, and pesticides. We all agree that we should be, you know, eating in a way that optimizes the nutrient density of our food and that food is medicine. So there’s this whole series of things that we all agree on, and the question is how do we achieve that? And, you know, in each diet philosophy, there are ways to, sort of, approximate more because you can be a chips and soda vegan, right, or you can be a burgers and fries carnivore, I mean, paleo person. So, I think you just have to kind of figure out what is nutrient density? What is nutrient quality? How do you pick food as medicine, whatever you’re eating? And so in the book, I do go through, like, okay, you know, what about dairy, for example, isn’t it nature’s perfect food? No. Most of the dairy we have is from homogenous cows that are all bred to be identical, produce high levels of what we call A1 casein in their milk, which is very inflammatory and cause lots of digestive issues. And, you know, there are other forms of dairy. There’s goat and sheep that have A2 casein or they’re heirloom cows that have A2 casein that may be better tolerated. And, of course, you want grass finish. You don’t want them milked when pregnant, you know, because a lot of organic cows are still milked when pregnant and full of hormones. So, there’s a whole series of things you have to think about with each food that you’re eating. And so in “The Pegan Diet” book, I go through like, well, if you’re gonna eat nuts, which one? If you’re gonna have grains, which one? I mean do you want the hybridized high-starch, high-gluten grain whole wheat that we grow in America, or do you want more heirloom wheats, or are there wheat that may grow in Europe if you’re not gluten-sensitive? So I think there’s a nuance to how to do that. And then there’s some really simple, sort of, guides around some of the big controversies. What about cleanses and fasting? What about time-restricted eating and various practices like that? What about eating for longevity or for mood or for how to feed your cancer? There’s all sorts of really practical stuff in the book that allows people, sort of, to kind of walk away going, okay, it’s like a basic owner’s manual for the body. I mean, if you have a body, you probably, you know, need to know how it works. And most of us have no clue, we weren’t born with a little instruction manual strapped to our leg. We had to, kind of, figure it out. So, how do you eat for your microbiome? How do you personalize nutrition? How do you eat like a regenitarian, which means how do you eat to help save the planet and your health? Why might meat be medicine? You know, like, there’s some really interesting provocative things there. How do you eat in a way that you can afford it? Like, how do you make it affordable? So, I think it’s a really simple book but it’s been a lot of years of research to get to this point. So it’s, sort of, taking all that I’ve known and crystallizing it down into this really simple, digestible, practical set of principles that you can follow. They’re not dogma, they’re not rules, and they can be adapted to any dietary preference or taste. Katie: Yeah, I like that they’re not dogmatic and there are not rules. I think there’s been a trend to go overly dogmatic in some of these approaches for a while. And my thought has always been at the end of the day, we want metabolic flexibility. Of course, we wanna give our body good inputs whenever possible. But we also want it to be able to handle variation when it needs to. And so when you get overly dogmatic in one approach and never have any variation, that your body is so smart, it adapts to that. And then you don’t have the metabolic flexibility as easily necessarily when you need it. I also love that you mentioned the planet and the regenerative side because I think this is also a really important part of the conversation right now. And where some of the debate stems from, certainly, I know many vegans, who I respect their reasons for why they’ve chosen to eat that way because they are wanting to help the planet, they think it’s also very healthy for them but I think the climate and planet environmental piece is really important. Like you said, what we eat does not just affect us. I know this can get a little controversial, but walk us through the planet impact side. And we hear things from, you know, like that eating meat is bad for the planet. Dr. Hyman: Look, look, look, I mean, growing rice is the largest agricultural maker of, I think, methane because of the off-gassing from the rice paddies. And I think we just can have a realistic view of what we know, what we don’t know. And often arguments, you know, become simplified, right? Meat, bad, vegetables, good. And I think we just have to take a step back and look at, you know, how do we build agricultural ecosystems that provide food that’s the most nutritious, that supports farmers livelihoods, that restores soil, conserves water, increases biodiversity, is not just sustainable, which, you know, we don’t wanna sustain what we have. We wanna regenerate ecosystems and we wanna grow food in ways that regenerate human health. And I think that’s what the whole book is about. And I think that each section talks about how do we focus on how to do that, but principle nine is really about eating like a regenitarian. And what most people don’t realize is that we think, you know, it’s all factory farming animals. It’s not necessarily. I mean, it’s even how we grow food, any food in this country, we use massive amounts of agrochemicals. We use hybridized seeds. We use massive tillage that destroys the soil. We use irrigation and all the chemicals we use actually destroy the natural habitats and ecosystems for animals and pollinators. We’ve lost 75% of our pollinators, for example, half of all our bird species because of agriculture in America. And we’ve lost, you know, because the nitrogen runoff, 212,000 metric tons of fish in the Gulf of Mexico a year, which is an enormous amount of our fish, because of the dead zones as the nitrogen, you know, basically fertilizes all the algae, which sucks the oxygen out of the water and all the fish suffocate. I mean, it’s pretty gruesome because of our agricultural system. You know, third of all the carbon in the atmosphere comes from the soil. It’s been tilled and destroyed because of our farming techniques. And we have, you know, incredible use of the freshwater there depleted around the world because of this. So it’s all this vicious cycle. And I think that what people don’t realize is that, you know, we’re running out of soil and we gotta focus on that. And the only way to really build soil is through these techniques that have been used over the years for many different farmers but are now being talked about as a holistic approach, which include, you know, regenerative agriculture, defined as no-tillage of the soil, so you don’t break the soil up and kill the organic matter that sucks the carbon out of the atmosphere. You keep cover crops on so you don’t leave the fields bare or fallow. You do crop rotations to fertilize different nutrients into the soil. You integrate animals into the ecosystem because the animals are the, sort of, glue that makes it all work and work fast. You get high levels of manure, urine, saliva, all stimulating plant growth and nutrient deposition of the soil. And so you get this incredible ecosystem that’s, sort of, a virtuous cycle and that produces more food, better food, and is more profitable for the farmers, better for us, and better for the planet. And it turns out, you know, depending on who you listen to and the statistics, and not everybody agrees, obviously, but, you know, it’s been estimated that, you know, a third to half of all greenhouse gases come from our food system, right, from soil erosion, from deforestation, from food waste, from factory-farming animals, and so forth. But then, if you actually were to, sort of, shift everything back to regenerative agriculture, not even everything, but like the U.S. says if we took 2 out of the 5 million hectares of degraded land around the world and we turn it into regenerative agriculture, which would basically cost a tenth of what America spends on diabetes and obesity, like, if there’s a tenth in a year, we would be able to stop climate change for 20 years by, you know. And, you know, people say, “Well, I just eat vegetables.” Well, you can’t grow crops on 40% of agricultural lands. It’s only really through the use of animals that can upgrade undigestible, like, you know, millions of tons of undigestible grasses and foods. They have all these stomachs and they convert into incredibly nutrient-dense food product for us, which is protein. And so, you know, and doing it in the right way can actually restore these lands and help with environmental destruction, and climate change, and ecological collapse, and all the things we’re facing now. So agriculture is really a key solution. And so how do you eat more like a regenitarian? Will your choices matter? I mean, you should shop locally and eat organic when you can. You shop at the farmers’ market. It can be smart agriculture. Look for the new regenerative organic certified label. It’s starting to be on food, which involves three areas, soil health, animal welfare, and social fairness, which is all good. Just have a compost pile. Don’t throw out your scraps in the garbage because they rot and they end up, you know, causing methane production that’s three times that of cows because of off-gassing from these landfills. So there’s really some simple principles and more and more we’ll able to do this, but I think no one can disagree with becoming a regenitarian. It’s, sort of, like being against mom and apple pie and, you know, football in this country. Katie: Certainly. Yeah. We all need to be aware of the planet we share. And I think this is a great time of year to highlight things like composting or start a garden, even if it’s just on your porch. And you can container garden. There’s so many ways that you can be more involved intimately with your food supply. And, like you said, supporting local farms and local farmers, any kind of local agriculture, that’s great for the economy. And it’s also more nutrient-dense because you’re getting fresher food. 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What you eat and what you put in your body can also affect your mental health. It’s a very important cycle. So, walk us through, for people who are struggling and have had a tough year and maybe are working through depression or anxiety, how can we use food as medicine and to our advantage when it comes to that? Dr. Hyman: Well, you know, one of the challenges that we really think our emotions and our mental health is somehow completely independent of our physical health. And it’s just nonsense. In fact, your thoughts, and your mood, and your energy are all related to your biological health. And yes, you know, there is a mind-body effect that’s profound. But there’s also a body-mind effect. And I wrote about this in my book, “The UltraMind Solution,” decades ago…I mean, it feels like decades ago, probably 15 years ago. And the premise of the book was that all that we do influences our brain. And our brain is part of our body. It’s just another organ. And if we treat it right, we’ll have a good brain. If we don’t, we won’t. And turns out that our diet, which is, you know, full of sugar, starch, refined oils, processed foods, is extremely damaging to our brains and it causes inflammation in the brain. And it turns out the inflammation in the brain is what’s causing all the dysfunction that we see, whether it’s depression, or Alzheimer’s, or autism, or ADD. These are states of brain inflammation. And so, the question is, what’s causing it? Well, it’s primarily our diet. Too much of the things we shouldn’t be eating, right? Sugar, starch, refined oils, processed foods, inflammatory foods, and not enough of the foods that we should be eating, whole foods, real food, good fats. And often just doing a reset diet can profoundly affect people. I had this one woman come up to me and after three days, she was on The Daniel Plan, which is a faith-based wellness program based on the same principles essentially. And she did an elimination diet. And at the six-week event came up to me and says, “Dr. Hyman, I’ve been in and out psychiatric hospitals all my life. I’ve been, you know, struggling with my marriage. I’m about to get fired from my job and my life is falling apart. I’m depressed all the time.” You know, she was like 100 pounds overweight. And it was just like…it was bad. And she said, “Is it possible after three days my depression can go away?” I mean, this is someone who has been on every medication, in and out of psychiatric hospitals, simply by changing her diet. And after, you know, six weeks, she was a different person. She lost 40 pounds. She felt amazing and she really had this awakening that, you know, food and mood are so connected. And so whether it’s depression or anxiety, whether it’s things like, you know, ADD or even behavioral issues, we see just tremendous impact, learning, focus, attention. I mean, the CDC put a report out about nutrition in children and their academic performance. And it’s just so clear that these kids are so struggling to focus and pay attention when they go to school with a bag of Doritos and a can of Coke in the morning, or nothing. And so, of course, they’re gonna have trouble with academic performance and success in life. And, you know, I mean, everything just, kind of, goes haywire. And then on the other side, not just learning but behavior. We know that in prisons if you give prisoners healthy food that their violent crime goes down in prison by 56%. And if you give them a multivitamin, it goes down by 80% because they’re so nutritionally deficient. And we see this in juvenile detention centers. You can get 91% reduction in violent behavior within those groups by simply giving these kids real food, like 75% lower restraint use, 100% lower risk of suicide. I mean, think about it. It’s the third leading cause of death in that group. You know, if there was a drug that can reduce suicide by 100%, it’d be a trillion-dollar drug, right? And yet, it’s food. So I think we really need to take this seriously and understand that our diet is not only killing us physically but killing us emotionally. Katie: Absolutely. And we’ve probably all felt the difference in a day when you don’t have those factors optimized, you don’t maybe get enough sleep, which means your blood sugar is not gonna be as dialed in as it could be or you just don’t get nutrient-dense food and, kind of, that draggy, sluggish feeling versus the days when your brain is on and everything’s lined up. And the beauty of that, like you say and you explain really well in the book, is you can optimize for that every day. And the great thing is it is a snowball. When you optimize for that, you feel better, then you want to continue doing those things. And it gets so much easier and easier over time. I mean, you certainly make a compelling case. If someone wants to get started, obviously, they should order the book, but what are the other starting points? Where can someone jump in if they are struggling from some of these chronic illnesses or maybe depression and anxiety or just realizing they need to maybe upgrade their food choices? Where do they start? Dr. Hyman: Well, it’s a great question. You brought up a lot of different things there about, you know, just getting healthy, losing weight, dealing with chronic disease. And the beautiful thing about it, it’s not like you need a different treatment for every problem, although there are some subtleties. But just swapping out all the junk for real food and upgrading your health, and I call it the science of creating health as opposed to the science of treating disease, which is what most of medicine is about. And for me, by simply learning the science of creating health, which starts with food, a lot of these problems just go away. It’s a quick story and then I’ll, sort of, talk about how to get started. This is what this one patient did. She did something that I talked about in the book called “the 10-day reset,” which is like it’s a 10-day reset where you hit, you know, the reset button, sort of like turning your body back to its original factory settings and seeing just because of what you’re eating and what’s actually some structural problem or some deeper issue like Lyme disease or metals or something else. And this woman came to our program at Cleveland Clinic called Functioning for Life, which is a group shared medical appointment. And she decided to do this program and essentially, like I said, the 10-day reset. Within three days…She was on insulin for 10 years, diabetic. She was 250 pounds and 5 foot probably. And so her body mass index, I think, was 43. Normal is 25 or less, and 30 or more is obese. So she was in the extreme obese category. She had heart failure. She had high blood pressure. Her kidneys were starting to fail, her liver was starting to fail, and a host of other issues. And she was paying 20 grand a year for co-pays for her medication. Within three days, she was off her insulin, and three months, she was off all her medications and her heart failure, diabetes, her blood pressure all normalized after a year. She lost 116 pounds and is a completely different person. And I think, you know, when you see someone who goes from eating the worst diet to the healthy, whole foods, pegan diet, or for her, you know, it was reset, it really can be profound. So, I’m not saying it’s gonna fix everybody in the same way. It depends on what the cause is, but food is usually a big part of it. And so I encourage people if they wanna get started is, you know, either just simply by swappping out real whole foods for all the other stuff. So just don’t eat anything that has ingredients you don’t recognize. Or two, you know, one of the things often is really great for people is to do a 10-day reset, is to actually give themselves a chance to feel what it feels like to be really fully, you know, cleaned out, essentially. It’s just getting rid of all the junk and it’s getting rid of all the common allergens. You know, but it’s really pretty simple. So, you know, I have principle 21 to start the pegan diet today and try to make it pretty straightforward. But I joke, I say it’s few simple things. One, you know, ask yourself a simple question, did God or nature, if you don’t believe in God, make this, or did man make it? You know, did God make an avocado? Yeah. Did he make a Twinkie? No. It’s a pretty simple choice about what to eat. And if you do that, you can’t go wrong. The second is, don’t eat foods with labels. I mean, yes, you can eat foods with labels, but read the label, right? So, if it says tomatoes, water, and salt, that’s fine. If it says, you know, it’s a dicarbodiimide methydextrine and butylated hydroxytoluene and, you know, monotriglycerides, and emulsifiers, and carrageenan, and xanthan gum, and all this other stuff, don’t eat it. I mean, if you can’t pronounce…If you wouldn’t have the thing in your cupboard, right, if you wouldn’t have like butylated hydroxytoluene you sprinkle on your salad dressing, then don’t eat it. It’s probably in almost all the processed food we eat. It’s BHT, it’s a preservative. And, you know, when you go to the grocery store, stick around the edges, don’t go down the aisles. That’s where the bad stuff is. There are some things, there are, like, oils, and nuts, and seeds. And eat mostly plants. Like, that’s what Michael Pollan said and I agree with him. Meat is not a main dish, it’s a side dish. I mean, I think for most of us growing up, it’s like a giant piece of meat on the plate and then three string beans and a potato. But I think we really just swap it around and, you know, put vegetables on 75% of the plate with a small piece of protein, palm-size of your hand. And lots of good fats every day, avocados, olive oil. Stay away from the refined oils. Include some of the superfoods like we talked about, like phytochemical-rich foods. And, you know, dairy, I’m not a big fan. But if you’re having dairy, sheep and goat are okay. You know, if you’re eating grains, you know, stick with the gluten-free grains, if you can. If you’re eating nuts and seeds and beans, you know, there’s ones that are better for you. And, you know, just basically, enjoy life. Like, you know, don’t be crazy. You can do the 90/10 rule. I mean, as a doctor, I never cheat? Well, yeah, I have ice cream and I have cookies, but I make sure they’re made from real ingredients. And usually not dairy ice cream but I have, like, coconut ice cream or other sorbets or things like that. So I will, but I think it’s really about choosing stuff that you made real anyway. So it’s not just a dessert made from a bunch of chemicals or weird stuff but it’s actually something that I know what it is. So, it’s still a whole real food. It’s just more of a treat. So that’s, sort of, the basic way I would get started. But I think if people really wanna get going, the 10-day reset is powerful. And you can learn more about it at getfarmacy.com, G-E-T-F-A-R-M-A-C-Y with an F. Katie: I’ll make sure that is linked as well as a lot of your other resources. You have so, so many. And I love your point about the reset. I love the quote that almost everything can fix itself if you just unplug it for a little while including us. Like sometimes you just need to reset and unplug and give your body a chance and realize our body’s innate wisdom, it wants to get to a state of health. Very often, like you said, we just have to get out of its way and stop giving it the negative inputs. It wants to be healthy and it knows how to get there. We just have to work with it, not against it. And that process can often be easier than we expect. And you explain that so well in this book. Like you mentioned in the beginning, you’ve been in this field for literally decades. And I have found so many of your resources and your books really impactful. And I think this one, of course, continues the trend. So, highly recommend it for all of you guys listening. And speaking of books, I know I’ve asked this of you before on podcasts, but I’m always looking for new recommendations. So, besides your own, are there any recent books that have been really impactful or profound for you? Dr. Hyman: Yeah, I’m trying to…You know, the world is kind of a crazy place. And, you know, like everybody else, trying to make sense of it. And I’ve been doing this book called “21 Lessons for the 21st Century” by Yuval Harari, who’s a historian, trying to get some historical context to what’s going on in the world right now because it’s a lot. I’ve really been enjoying that. And so that’s my favorite one for now. Katie: Perfect. I’ll link to that in the show notes as well. I second that recommendation. It’s a good one. And Dr. Hyman, I know just how busy you are, everything that you run, and helping all the people that you help and I’m so grateful for you being here again today and sharing your valuable time with us. Dr. Hyman: Of course, thank you so much for having me. Katie: And thank you, guys, as always for listening, for sharing your most valuable resources, your time, and your energy with us today. We are so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast”. If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening. Thanks to Our Sponsors This podcast is sponsored by Olipop, delicious soda that is actually good for you. Did you know that most Americans consume more than the recommended daily intake of sugar, by a lot? And sweetened drinks like soda are the leading source of extra sugar? And most of us also don’t get enough fiber! I’ve found a delicious answer to both of these problems and it’s called Olipop. I was so excited to find a truly healthy soda alternative! Olipop uses functional ingredients that combine the benefits of prebiotics, plant fiber and botanicals to support your microbiome and benefit digestive health… and that taste just like soda without the junk! 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Wendy Powell has helped over 75,000 women worldwide with her MUTU system, a method that can help you naturally recover from all kinds of pelvic floor issues, incontinence, diastasis recti, and so much more. I love her message that women do not have to accept these issues as normal or lifelong! In fact, they might be much easier to solve than you’d expect. Wendy goes deep on how some of the current advice on pelvic floor health can actually make these problems worse, and holistic solutions to try instead. Take a listen and share with a friend… I’m sure you’ll agree all women need this information! Episode Highlights With Wendy Powell Why even minor incontinence doesn’t have to be normal Jokes aside, why peeing when you sneeze isn’t normal The major thing missing from the conventional advice about pelvic floor health How pelvic floor issues can be from too tight of a pelvic floor Why the 6-week guideline for women to return to normal life needs reexamination The way the current medical climate has affected access to care for women struggling with pelvic floor issues What to do if sex hurts after pregnancy Special concerns for moms who work out of the home The lack of support most women face postpartum, and ideas to change this Why even women who haven’t given birth can need pelvic floor rehabilitation And more! Resources We Mention MUTU System Dare to Lead by Brene Brown All Brene Brown books More From Wellness Mama 415: Reversing Limiting Beliefs Such As I Am Not Enough With Marisa Peer 359: All About Pregnancy, Birth & Postpartum, and Avoiding Mom Burnout With Midwife Diana Spalding From Motherly 235: Signs of Pelvic Floor Dysfunction & How to Stop Pelvic Pain Naturally With Isa Herrera 83: Beating Postpartum Depression & Pelvic Floor Care with Dr. Jolene Brighten 88: Pregnancy Exercise, Diastasis, and Pelvic Floor Health with Lorraine Scapens 20: Exercise, Movement & Pelvic Floor Health Kegel Exercises (+ Better Exercises for Pelvic Floor Health) Symptoms of Vaginal Atrophy (& Natural Ways to Protect Vaginal Health) How to Lose Weight: What Worked for Me to Lose 80+ Pounds Do you struggle with pelvic health? Have you tried the MUTU system? Let us know what you think! Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Flying Embers, a better-for-you alcohol brand that brews Hard Kombucha with probiotic-powered Hard Seltzer. All of their products are zero sugar, zero carbs, USDA certified organic, and brewed with live probiotics and adaptogens. They’re also all keto, gluten-free, vegan, and low in calories, so they’re a great option for a functional low-calorie drink that is delicious. I love their flavors. They have some really unique ones, like Grapefruit Thyme and Guava Jalapeno, and I’m a big fan of their Clementine Hibiscus. All of their products are artfully crafted with a dry fermentation process, which gives the Hard Kombucha a perfectly balanced natural sweetness that tastes amazing despite having zero sugar and carbs. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal just for you. Receive 15% off your whole order. To claim this deal, go to flyingembers.com/wellnessmama and use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout and the discount is only available on their website. And they’re also available nationwide at grocery stores, anywhere you find beer and hard seltzers, but check out where to find them and get the discount, flyingembers.com/wellnessmama. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley, my go to source for grass fed probiotic rich beef sticks and now some of my favorite supplements as well. I always have their beef stick on hand for myself and for my kids. They have a vitamin C complex made with three of the most concentrated natural sources of vitamin C: amla berry, camu camu berry, and unripe acerola cherry. Each nutrient-packed serving delivers 750% of your daily recommended intake of vitamin C from food sources. This amount is meant to help you thrive, not just survive with the minimum recommended amount. Most other vitamin C supplements are derived from GMO corn and only contain one fraction of the vitamin – ascorbic acid. Their Essential C Complex contains the entire spectrum with absolutely no synthetic vitamin C, just organic superfoods! Check this and all of their products out and save 15% at paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s Wellnesse, with an E on the end, my new line of personal care products. And this episode is especially for moms and especially any moms who have struggled with things like incontinence or pelvic floor health, or any other postpartum issues related to those, or who maybe even years post-children have trouble doing things like jumping on the trampoline or sneezing too hard, things like that. And I’m here with Wendy Powell, who founded something called MUTU Systems. And this is a globally recognized system for helping really reverse these issues. And she’s a globally recognized voice on equality and empowerment when it comes to women’s health. She’s been doing this for 2 decades and this program has been trusted by 75,000 women worldwide helping them recover from all kinds of pelvic floor issues, incontinence, diastasis recti, and so much more. And her message in this podcast and her practical advice is that it is not normal, it is not lifelong, these issues do not have to be permanent. And in fact, they might be much easier to solve than you’d expect. And there’s many other benefits as well when we address these issues in a holistic way that supports the body. And she goes deep on how some of the current advice can actually be not just not helpful, but counterproductive for really helping these issues. So I think if these are issues that have ever affected you, you’ll learn a lot from this episode. And with that, let’s join Wendy. Wendy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here. Wendy: Thank you for having me. Katie: I’m excited to jump in on this topic today because I think it’s one that affects many women and that isn’t really talked about enough, other than kind of in a joking sense, we hear people talk about, you know, women saying that they can’t jump on a trampoline after having kids or they can’t…you know, if they laugh or sneeze, they pee. But I think it’s just a, kind of, joked about, accepted thing when it comes to postpartum. And I wonder if it doesn’t have to be. But to start broad, walk us through the impact of this on people in their personal lives, in their relationships, and mental health. Because I know it’s a thing I hear other moms joke about a lot. Wendy: Absolutely. Yeah, you’re so right, Katie. It’s something that…Incontinence. And when I say incontinence, to be clear, that means I’m talking about if you pee yourself a little or a lot at any time when you don’t want to be. So I think often we hear the word incontinence and we kind of think of old ladies and we think, you know, “Well, me peeing a little bit when I sneeze, that’s not the same thing.” So, I’m talking about not being able to hang on to pee or worse when you need to hang on to it. Okay? So if that was happening to you at any time in your life, then that’s what we’re referring to here. And you’re so right, we joke about it. It’s as if peeing when you sneeze or laugh is part of being a mom, right? We are expected to just accept this, to just go with it. Well, what do you expect? You have children. And it affects us hugely. It affects, obviously, our, sort of, physical comfort but it affects our mental health and how we feel about ourselves. This is about basic dignity and function. So, if we’re worrying whether or not we can get to the bathroom quick enough or whether we will…or even adjusting social schedules or invitations that we might get because we’re worried we may not be close enough to a bathroom, this is affecting everything. This is affecting our life, our social life, our relationships, our ability to just move, and be, and live, and be active in the way that we want to be. So if you’re avoiding, whether it be anything from an exercise class to a social situation, or anything like that because you’re afraid you’re gonna wet yourself, then this is an issue. And as you say, it is not just a physical one, and it’s definitely not a joke, and it is fixable, and it is really affecting our well-being and our self-esteem. It goes way beyond just the physical. Katie: Yeah, I agree, there’s a lot more implications than just the physical. But to explain on the physical level, certainly, this is the thing, I know not only women experience after postpartum, it happens in other situations as well, but it is very common after having children. What is happening physiologically in the body that makes this more common? Wendy: Sure. So, as you say, it’s most often associated with post-baby, whether immediately post-baby or sometime post-baby. But incontinence or leaking is something that can affect women at all times during their life. And certainly, as we get older and head into perimenopause and menopause when hormone changes there might make that more likely. So what’s actually going on is the muscles of the pelvic floor, their job, amongst other things, is to hold in what you want held in until you’re ready for it to let go. Now, we often and traditionally have always been told that pelvic floor exercises consist essentially of squeezing, right, Kegels. So, if we have ever been given any information about pelvic floor exercises, what you’re told to do is squeeze and squeeze and hang on. Often women are advised to squeeze as if you’re trying not to pee. Now, the result of that is that when we’re doing that a lot is that you end up with a situation, this is very often a cause of stress or other types of incontinence, is when those muscles, those muscles of your pelvic floor are what we call hypertonic. That means too tight. So, in actual facts, very often your leaking is not because your pelvic floor muscles are too slack, if you like, too loose, but often they’re too tight. So to explain that, if, for example, you want to use your bicep muscle and imagine you’re flexing your bicep, you know, you’re curling your arm up and flexing your bicep, now, if your bicep is in that contracted, switched on position, if you now need your bicep, it’s got nowhere else to go. And that is exactly what’s happening to many, many women’s pelvic floors. So, an unconscious or subconscious holding on, squeezing, often long-term, because they might be worried about losing control, is actually having the effect of a set of muscles that is permanently or often already engaged, already contracted. So, therefore, when they need those muscles to hang on before they can get to the bathroom, there’s nowhere else for them to go and they don’t work. That is why a scenario that will be familiar to many women or, for example, you get to your front door, you put the key in the lock, and instantly, “Okay, I’ve gotta be at the bathroom now.” You know, kind of, that urgency of there’s no time between me realizing I need to go and it being too late. That’s what’s called urgent incontinence and is often associated with a hypertonic pelvic floor. And then equally, there may also be an issue with muscles being too slack or too loose. So when we do pelvic floor exercises and when we teach them effectively, we really need to be really helping women to understand what should it feel like when we do them right, and to focus as much on the ability for those muscles to release and relax as much as they need to contract and engage. So there’s a lot going on there. There isn’t one cause of that leaking. It can come from a number of different issues. And there are other deeper issues like trauma, whether that be from the birth itself or from something else that has happened to you. There are many reasons why those muscles may be too engaged, too switched on, hypertonic, and therefore, ineffective. So there’s a lot of things contributing. But what we need to do to get past it is to really educate women on how to effectively perform those pelvic floor exercises and understand what it feels like when you get them right. Katie: So, let’s go deeper on that. I’m guessing there’s definitely things we should be doing in the postpartum phase that can be helpful and probably things that should be avoided in that phase as well. But is there any, kind of, like, pre-emptive work that can be done pre-birth that can be helpful as well, or where should women start on starting to address this? Wendy: Absolutely. So the answer to that is very much start where you are. So wherever you are right now, that’s the right place. But absolutely, we can start to address these issues before we get pregnant or during pregnancy. Well, very often happens post-birth. So, regardless of what your birth actually looks like, if your birth was a vaginal birth, for instance, you are likely to feel, in the early days, weeks, or even longer, a lack of sensitivity or sensation around those muscles working. Similarly, if you had a C-section birth, it is likely that there will be a lack of sensation, and sensitivity, and connection with engaging your core muscles, which includes your pelvic floor around your C-section sites. So, the more that we can start understanding what that feels like before that happens, the better because there is…We often heard the term muscle memory, it exists. If we know how it feels to engage in work, and release, and relax our pelvic floor and core before we go through that process, all the better. So wherever you’re at right now is the right place to start. And in terms of what to avoid, and this would apply during pregnancy and, certainly, in the postpartum period, is anything that is high impact is, of course, going to exert that extra force and impact on your pelvic floor. So, anything like running, jumping, high-impact exercise is unlikely to be a very good idea during pregnancy or in the early postpartum period because you’re just putting too much force and load on the pelvic floor muscles which need time to recover and strengthen again. Katie: That makes sense. And I think not that women are necessarily jumping into those things but I do think that in society today, like, there is this kind of expectation that at six weeks, all normal activity can resume and you should be able to do high intensity and you should be back to where you were pre-pregnancy. And certainly, I haven’t seen that in other cultures around the world. It seems like a lot of other cultures have much more respect for the recovery and the length of the postpartum period. Do you find that as well or is that specific more to the U.S. that we see that? Wendy: I totally agree with you that to assume or imply that six weeks after having a baby we should be “back to where we were” is clearly ludicrous. You know, you were pregnant for nine months, it takes…We need to recover from that. And there is, as you say, a very unrealistic and I think damaging expectation given from, whether it be from social media, from our culture, generally, that we are supposed to be getting our body back, that we are supposed to be back to where we once were within literally just weeks of giving birth. It’s totally unrealistic. Our body is not ready to do that. I think it’s important to note that it’s not saying for a minute that you will never do those exercises. You know, if you were…let’s say you’re a runner and you love to run, and that’s your happy place both mentally and physically, please don’t feel, “Oh, I’ll never run again.” Absolutely you will, but you need to build those foundations first. And so to, sort of, go back into that too soon or before you’ve, kind of, done that restorative work is gonna cause leaking. And to continue doing something that is causing you to leak is not going to stop you leaking. We need to back up. It’s very much what we do at MUTU System. It’s about building those foundations and backing up to a point where we reconnect and rebuild so that we can move forward and lift up, dance, pole dance, whatever it is you wanna do. You can do all those things, but we need strong foundations. Katie: Yeah, I think that’s so important and, like I said in the beginning, not talked about or given enough focus, especially…And it’s hard, I get completely for moms that first 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 6 months is an exhausting phase. And so it’s hard to take care of yourself at all. I get it. But I have also seen firsthand, I’ve had six kids, that certainly, recovery doesn’t happen in six weeks. And especially after multiple pregnancies, it was years. My youngest is almost 5 and I feel like…not that my body is like it was pre-kids but I feel like I’m finally at a place where I can do all of those activities without any issues at all, just not even incontinence but, like, my hips finally feel more stable. There’s so much that goes along with all of the changes that come from having a baby. Another area that is, kind of, looped in with that six-week timeline is the topic of intercourse postpartum or after having a baby. And typically, I think six weeks is when the normal check-off is given for that as well. But are there any specifics related to that, that women need to be aware of or cautious of? Wendy: Absolutely. And I think, sort of, discomfort or even pain during intimacy, during intercourse post-baby is very common. And sadly, as you say, like incontinence, like leaking, not really talked about. That expectation on women to get back to a place where they once were or where they feel they should be, or where others feel they should be, should not be rushed. And I think the most important message there is to listen to your body, and to respect your body, and to go easy on yourself, to be kind to yourself, to work with your partner during that. You don’t owe anybody anything. If you’re not ready, you’re not ready. And I think what’s important as well around that pelvic floor conversation and muscle conversation is the reason why that might hurt, why sex might hurt, why intercourse might not be comfortable, there could be many reasons for that. So first, I’ll say that, that there could be many issues contributing to that situation. But something that will not certainly be helping is that situation I mentioned before of that hypertonicity, that not quite recovered, not relaxing, and releasing as well as it’s working pelvic floor. So, again, if you’re tense, if you’re anxious, if you’re not feeling good about your body, if you’re not feeling good in your body. So, this is where the physical and the emotional both come into play here. And what you end up with is a very real physiological disconnection. And when we disconnect, we’re no longer communicating with, if you like, those muscle groups. We’re not working with them. We’re trying to work against them. So whether it’s intercourse or whether it’s running, there is nothing that we should be forcing our body through. Pain, discomfort, anxiety, we never should be working through those things. We should…just pushing on through. What we should always be doing is backing up and being gentle with ourselves. But pelvic floor work and restoration can very much help with that postpartum discomfort or pain, even with intercourse. It can really help because what you’re doing is you’re reteaching the pelvic floor to be more flexible, to work both in terms of contraction and in terms of release. And that’s really, really important. But I would say that the biggest piece of advice I would give around this issue is time. Give yourself kindness, give yourself time. There’s no rush. Katie: Yeah, and what a metaphor for life. I think especially as moms, that’s good advice across the board, but especially in this area as well. A lot of the women listening are either stay-at-home moms or stay-at-home moms who are also working. And I know that this is an issue from researching you that can really affect women and their careers as well, even though that may not be something that is top of mind when you first kind of think about this. But what do we know about how this is affecting women in work environments and in careers? Wendy: It really does. It really does. Because as we mentioned right at the start of our conversation was that these are not just physical issues. For example, if you’re worried you’re gonna pee yourself, if you’ve got prolapse symptoms, if you’ve got pelvic discomfort bearing down, heaviness, discomfort, if you’ve got any of these issues around pelvic floor, pelvic core, doesn’t feel good, not working, sometimes hurts, you feel you can’t trust it, if you’ve got that stuff going on, it is very hard to be present, or focused, or productive in a work environment. What you’ve got then is a situation where not only is that presence and focus very hard, but it’s embarrassing. It’s awkward. It’s difficult. These issues come with a lot of shame. They come with a lot of secrecy. And so, quite clearly, these sort of issues…This is not like having a broken ankle at work. You know, if you’ve got a broken ankle at work, you can’t walk up the stairs maybe and your ankle hurts. This is affecting everything. This is affecting dignity and function at every level. It’s also affecting your relationships and your intimate relationships at home. So, of course, it’s going to impact on our ability to be our best selves in whatever professional or other environment that we’re trying to be. We did a lot of research and we’ve been quite active in this area, certainly, of course, through the current situation, but around how pelvic health is mental health. Pelvic health affects mental health. An astonishing and depressing, if you like, number of women will say that they have wet themselves at work in the last week, that they’ve wet themselves at work more than once a day. Now, if we’ve got those sort of issues, that is affecting your productivity, your focus, and your happiness, and comfort in all levels. So, it really is as much an issue for whether the workplace, whatever the workplace looks like for you, as much as it is at home or socially. These are mental health issues and really should be given that gravitas and that priority in terms of how we treat them. Katie: And another thing I could see being an issue, especially right now, is this is, kind of, an unusual time as far as navigating these things, especially postpartum. Just there’s a reduction in face-to-face visits with a lot of practitioners. Obviously, when you have a baby, you still are face-to-face with your doctor. But I know in different areas, this kind of varies how people have access to these different kinds of tools. This is also the reason I was so excited to have you on because this is a system that helps address this for women anywhere in the world. But are we seeing specific issues related to people having not as much access to face-to-face practitioners right now? Wendy: Yeah, we really are. We really are. So, all of those support networks that may be available to us or are hopefully available to us throughout pregnancy and in the early postpartum period, as you say, everybody’s, sort of, situation is different right now depending on where in the world you are, but lockdown, pandemic, the current situation has meant that many of these support resources have been limited or unavailable to women. So that means in the pregnancy period and in the late and in the actual birthing process, we’ve had issues, in the U.K. especially, with birth partners not being allowed in the room. And women are giving birth alone or by alone, I mean with their medical caregivers for sure, but without their partner, without their birth partner. They’re attending antenatal appointments at anxiety-inducing, difficult, sensitive times, and an antenatal appointment that might involve a scan that might have been involved being told that your baby is not gonna make it. Women are in that situation alone. So, this current situation has meant that many really important phases of pregnancy, and birth, and labor have not had that personal support, that advocacy that is so important during that time. And then, of course, that continues afterwards. So, the appointments that one might have, the ability to go to groups where you would get support, and validation, and comfort from other women going through the same process as you are, so much of that has been taken away. In some cases, women may not even be able to see family. They may not be able to see friends and family as well. So, the process of birthing and being a new mom during this current time has really had a massive impact on the mental health of moms because there’s just so much that they’re simply having to cope with, and deal with, and figure out all by themselves and without support. So, yeah, it’s been a very difficult time for moms across that whole journey. The support that we maybe took for granted during that new mom period, as well, it’s just not there. And it’s a very scary time, especially for a new mom. There’s so many unknown, so many questions. So to not have somewhere that you can go and confidently get, not just…There’s kind of two parts to community and support. There’s the element that is other women, other people going through what you’re going through that understand it, that get it, that are there with you, and can support you, and hold you, but equally there’s that access that we need to expert support. So real answers to our questions, to our concerns, and our worries. And both of those networks have been massively reduced, if not literally just taken away right now. So it’s tough for moms right now. Katie: So let’s talk a little bit about solutions. It seems like in light of all of that, there’s probably a multi-phase approach for women in finding solutions during this phase. I would think starting with a partner being…like, you would want your partner on board and in your corner for sure. But can you walk us through how women can get their partners as an ally in this and then how to build that support in the ways that are possible right now beyond just a partner? Wendy: Yes, absolutely. So, of course, we’re all turning to in many, many ways throughout this process is more and more digital support. And that’s exactly what we do at MUTU System, which is to offer both that community in the sense of validation support, and camaraderie, and friendship, and support, and community in that sense, but also expert answers to your questions. So, we were asked at the beginning of March 2020, beginning of the lockdown in the U.K. last year, we were actually approached…I was approached by one of the university hospitals in this country by the women’s health physiotherapy department. Now, so, the women’s health physical therapists often referred to in the U.S. as physios. And the issues that these experts, these medical professionals deal with are around pelvic floor issues, prolapse issues, painful sex, diastasis recti, all of those issues around core and pelvic floor. Now, the physios’ approach, and myself, and MUTU is saying, “Look, we can’t see our outpatients right now. So we have new moms that are on a schedule following a diagnosis for one of these issues and we literally can’t see them. Can you get help to them at home?” So that’s exactly what we did. So, we worked with this hospital throughout last year getting at-home support. So this is what we provide, which is that at-home guidance, real talking, talking you through step by step, those vital foundational stages of core and pelvic floor recovery, but backing that up with ongoing, always there, digital community and answers to your questions. So, where you can’t get that in-person support, you can always log in to the MUTU System community and get not only that support from all those tens of thousands of other women and moms but also from experts who can answer your questions and help and guide you. Katie: And I’ll make sure, of course, that the link is in the show notes. I know you guys have a special page set up just for the people listening to this podcast. And it’s a 12-week program and you, kind of, walk through all of the explanation. What kind of expectations can women have going into this? Because I know there’s gonna be people listening ranging from veteran moms who have teenagers, even grown kids who maybe still have remnants of these issues or moms with those babies in that zero to six-week phase and everything in between. What kind of results do you guys see with people once they start actually addressing things and going through the course? Wendy: Sure. So, as you say, the naught to six weeks, to think that we can get everything back in that time is craziness and also it goes on a lot longer. I think probably the most often asked question that I have had over the years and we still get is am I too late? Am I too late to make a difference? So, my first thing would be I would want to reassure women listening to this that whatever stage you are at as a mother, as a woman, wherever you are in your journey, it’s not too late. And if you’re dealing with these issues as a brand new mom, or as a mom of toddlers, or teenagers, or you’re a grandma, you can make a difference. You can make a difference to your pelvic health, your pelvic muscle health, and your core health. So, that would be my first reassurance. No, it’s never too late, something we are asked a lot. And in terms of what you can expect is you can absolutely expect to see improvement in both function and aesthetics. And the reason I, kind of, bring both of those two things up is because often, we’re sort of led to believe through our social media feeds, etc., that post-baby exercise, whatever you wanna call it, is all about how your body looks to the outside. And it’s really not. It’s really not. Dignity, function matters a lot more. And what do I mean by function here? What I mean is that your body functions the way you need it to. It holds in pee and poop when you need it to hold them in. It means that when you lift your child, or when you lift your groceries, or whatever you’re lifting, when you twist and turn, and lift, and push and pull, your core is stable and strong. It means that intimacy, that sex that is a comfortable, and enjoyable, and fun experience. It means that your orgasms are gonna work. All of those things, that’s function. That’s like, we deserve all that stuff, you know. And that, to me, is so much more important than those washboard abs or whatever. So, that’s not to say that aesthetics aren’t important to many women. And that’s absolutely…I often refer to the aesthetics as a happy byproduct of MUTU System. We very much focus on function and everything working the way it’s supposed to. And the, sort of, aesthetic or how you look improvements are, as I say, a nice byproduct. You would expect to see in the first four to six weeks of doing MUTU System, you will feel different. Without question, you will feel different. You will start to feel more stable and you will start to feel more controlled and comfortable in your core and pelvic floor, and to start to see real differences in whatever symptoms you’re dealing with. So whether that be peeing yourself, or whether that be prolapse symptoms, or painful sex, all of those things we have now, from this hospital we worked with last year, clinical trial proving an absolutely phenomenal improvement across all those physical symptoms, as well as the mental health symptoms around actually feeling better and feeling like you’ve got your self-esteem back and your self-confidence back. So, you’ll start to feel that stuff definitely within four weeks of starting. It is, as you say, a 12-week process but it’s also one that is not always linear and many women come back to it many times, dip in and out once they’ve completed it. So, it really is a foundation for you to keep your core and pelvic floor working, feeling, looking the way you want them to and the way you deserve for them to. Katie: I know from my personal experience, I started, kind of, doing these movements when I had…I’m gonna probably butcher it because I’ve only heard it written verses said but is it diastasis or diastasis recti? I think people get what I’m talking about but I had that, especially after my C-section. And I also just felt like I had a real lack of core strength. It was almost like the muscles weren’t totally firing in the right way in my abs. And before I started jumping into, like, a pretty intense workout program, I wanted to make sure I had addressed those core things so that I was safe when I started lifting weights, and sprinting, and those exercises that you mentioned at the beginning. And for me, it was very much functional. I wanted to be able to move with my kids. I wanted to be able to try new things, and climb things, and jump over things. But the happy byproduct, like you said, was that it almost works like, I felt like a little bit like a corset. Like, it tightened all of my core muscles and helped what I thought was gonna be permanent, like, kind of, loose skin in my lower stomach after a C-section, not that it…I mean, there’s still a C-section scar but it really helped, kind of, even out and tighten those muscles and that skin. I’m also very much one not to think that our bodies need to look like they did pre-pregnancy. I’m very proud of my stretch marks, and my C-section scar, and the things that brought my children into the world but I feel like I have a much more functional core now after doing these movements. And the aesthetics, like you said, they’re a byproduct but a very happy one to get to, kind of, feel like I just, like, tightened my waist, which I think is also a struggle for a lot of women after having a baby. Wendy: It is. And you’re absolutely right to be proud of your tiger stripes and the way our bodies look after we’ve done this. But as you said, diastasis recti…It doesn’t matter how you say. Diastasis recti or abdominal separation, what that refers to is when the rectus muscles, you know, your six-pack muscle if you like, separates in the middle. And so what you have is a gap. It’s often referred to as a gap. And when you are able to heal that and strengthen those muscles in the right way, again, as you say, that does indeed have the effect of tightening your waist from the outside as well. But what it actually means from a functional point of view is when you’ve got that separation, there will be some lack of core function and strength underneath. And that feeling, as you described it as being unstable, and when you could narrow that gap and get that healed, and strong again, that’s when you not only felt more stable and strong, but also felt that you were able to narrow your waist, tighten your waist again, as well. So, yeah, that area around diastasis is a really important one. It affects how our tummies look and it affects how our core works. So, to work on those symptoms and issues, right as a foundational stage. And remember that our core includes our pelvic floor. So when we’re talking about abdominal exercises and ab exercises, that means abs, pelvic floor, lower back. It’s that whole region that we’re talking about strengthening. It’s so important to build that so that you can go on and do all the other things that you want to do. Katie: Absolutely. And like I mentioned, the link is, of course, in the show notes because it’s a long link. It’s easier to click on than just to say out loud, but those are at wellnessmama.fm for any of you guys listening. And like I said in the beginning, I think there’s so many things related to pregnancy, and birth, and postpartum, and miscarriage, and just aspects of being a mom that we don’t really talk about. And I think when we have these conversations, and when we normalize it, it empowers us to all be able to improve and to get help, and like you said, to build that community, which is such an important thing. And I’ve realized that more and more, especially even this past year when community has gotten so much more difficult for so many women. And so I love that you brought this extremely tangible option to people who are struggling to find real answers and real support postpartum, especially in such a strange time. And like I said, I think if we just keep having this conversation, we can help so many women and both be proud of our postpartum bodies and also still have the ability to do all the things we wanna do as our kids get older. And there’s so many fun things to do with them. This podcast is sponsored by Flying Embers, a better-for-you alcohol brand that brews Hard Kombucha with probiotic-powered Hard Seltzer. All of their products are zero sugar, zero carbs, USDA certified organic, and brewed with live probiotics and adaptogens. They’re also all keto, gluten-free, vegan, and low in calories, so they’re a great option for a functional low-calorie drink that is delicious. I love their flavors. They have some really unique ones, like Grapefruit Thyme and Guava Jalapeno, and I’m a big fan of their Clementine Hibiscus. All of their products are artfully crafted with a dry fermentation process, which gives the Hard Kombucha a perfectly balanced natural sweetness that tastes amazing despite having zero sugar and carbs. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal just for you. Receive 15% off your whole order. To claim this deal, go to flyingembers.com/wellnessmama and use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout and the discount is only available on their website. And they’re also available nationwide at grocery stores, anywhere you find beer and hard seltzers, but check out where to find them and get the discount, flyingembers.com/wellnessmama. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley, my go to source for grass fed probiotic rich beef sticks and now some of my favorite supplements as well. I always have their beef stick on hand for myself and my kids for snacks. They have a vitamin C complex made with three of the most concentrated natural sources of vitamin C: amla berry, camu camu berry, and unripe acerola cherry. Each nutrient-packed serving delivers 750% of your daily recommended intake of vitamin C from food sources. This amount is meant to help you thrive, not just survive with the recommended minimum. Most other vitamin C supplements are derived from GMO corn and only contain one fraction of the vitamin – ascorbic acid. Their Essential C Complex contains the entire spectrum with absolutely no synthetic vitamin C, just organic superfoods! Check this and all of their products out and save 15% at paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. A little bit of a deviation, I love to ask toward the end of interviews, if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a dramatic impact on your life or been inspiring to you and if so, what they are and why. Wendy: Yes, absolutely. So many books. I think I would probably have to name upfront, Brené Brown, pretty much anything by Brené Brown, actually, but “Dare to Lead,” especially. Brené Brown, in terms of her advice and insights around courageous leadership. And I don’t just mean leadership of my team and of my business, although obviously, that’s a vital part of what we do but as leader or caretaker, if you like, of such a big community of women, which is to understand that the importance of vulnerability and courage during that. My birth stories, my story is so integral to why I made MUTU System. And that sharing of those stories and sharing of that vulnerability, I think is so important. So, yeah, I’m definitely gonna put Brené Brown at the top I think. Katie: I second that. Yeah. pretty much anything she’s written. I think she’s also one that has brought some really important conversations to the forefront and helped a lot of people by normalizing conversations about things that before were just not talked about nearly enough. And she’s got great TED Talks, as well. I’ll make sure I link to her books in the show notes so people can find them. And then lastly, like I said, the link will be in the show notes, but any starting points for people listening on where to jump in if they are struggling with incontinence, or they have pelvic pain, or pain during sex, where’s the best starting point? Of course, I’ll put the link to your site but I know you guys have so many resources available. Wendy: We do. We do. And I think that the first stage is…Do you know what? I think the first stage is a mindset shift, you know, because we live in a culture, we are in a culture where we are told and taught that we need to do battle with our body, that we need to exercise it, work out into some kind of submission, that our body has somehow failed us. You know, if it’s leaking, if it’s hurting, if it’s not feeling stable, then our body has failed us in some way. And I wanna say right up front that that is not the case. And the most important message I give is that carrying, birthing, raising small humans is hard. It’s really hard. However you did it and whatever your journey looks like, you’re doing great. And if your body is giving you signals, and that’s what these things are. Okay? If you pee yourself sometimes or that feels uncomfortable, or you have pelvic pain, these are signs, these are signals your body is telling you, “This is not strong enough right now to do what you’re asking me to do.” It’s not connected enough to function the way that you need it to. So instead of pushing on through, instead of a painkiller or a pad, what we need to be doing is backing up and building foundations. So, your starting point should be to be kind to yourself, in terms of your body has not failed you, your body has done an amazing, incredible thing. And right now, it needs some help to reconnect, and restore, and start to get strong. And if we jump that piece, if we skip that piece and we go straight to, “Oh, my tummy doesn’t look how I want it to so I need to do ab exercises. That means I need to crunch or plank or whatever it is. I need to run, I need to lose weight, I need to…” If we jump to those things without building those foundations, not only are we doing our body and ourselves a disservice, but we’re not gonna get the results that we want. And so, it’s about starting where you are and starting with foundations. And it doesn’t matter how long you stay there. And you will keep revisiting there. We often refer to core and pelvic floor restorative work as like cleaning our teeth. You know, we don’t clean our teeth every day for a week or for a month and then sort of say, “Okay, that’s me done, my teeth are clean. I’m done.” Well, our core and our pelvic floor function is just like that. It’s something we keep doing. So we keep revisiting it. And we learn it as a foundation, and then we weave it into our daily life, to our activity, to any other workout or exercise we may want to do. So, it is a mindset shift. It’s about kindness. It’s about self-care. And it’s about acknowledging and understanding that those foundations are the most important thing we can do for our bodies and that everything else that you want it to do or look like or perform like, that can come afterwards. But this is where we start. Katie: I love that. I think that’s such a metaphor for so many aspects of health as well. I had that same mindset for years when I was trying to recover from thyroid issues and I was struggling to lose weight. And I kept trying to, like, punish my body thin and exercise more and deprive it of food. And what I’ve learned, I think, is a lesson for women across so many and for everyone across so many different areas is you can’t punish yourself healthy. And you can’t, like, be harsh with yourself in the moments when you need actual recovery, and to rebuild, and to nourish, and to strengthen from the inside out. And that lesson of acceptance from my body was so key for me. And I think it’s a struggle and a big adjustment, especially when we’re talking about new moms. I know that was a big mindset shift. I had to go through, like you mentioned, and I think a lot of moms had to go on that inner journey. And it’s a lifelong one as well. Like you said, it’s not a thing we do for eight weeks and then we’re fine. It’s a thing we incorporate with any aspect of health. It’s the thing we incorporate into our daily lives so that we can build over time these healthy habits and they just become integrated in our lives. And I think this is such an important one for so many women and not just women who have had kids. I know that’s been our focus in this episode. But I also know from your resources that women and men struggle with this even if they haven’t had babies and there are other things that can cause pelvic floor issues and incontinence as well. Like I said, we’ve focused on postpartum but can you speak a little bit to this also being able to help women who just maybe have pelvic floor issues or incontinence that aren’t pregnancy-related? Wendy: Absolutely. It’s very much something that is either side of or separate to the motherhood journey, for sure. So, as we start to get older and we head into perimenopause and menopause, our hormones are changing. And what will often happen is that women will start to have or experience or notice pelvic floor issues, for example, or painful intercourse issues as they get older. So, again, this is about hormonal changes and the solutions are the same. The solutions are the same around self-care and foundations, and really connecting with the pelvic floor. It comes to all of those other aspects that I know you talk so beautifully about, all those other things in our lives that support our hormone balance, about nourishment, about hydration, about great nutrition, about getting enough sleep, and enough rest, and eliminating as much as we are able to, sort of, that stress and anxiety from our lives. All of those things are helping with our hormonal balance before you even get into sort of supplements or anything else. So it’s kind of…And so, those issues around hormone changes and physical changes that come with that, we are always somewhere on that journey. A woman’s body is changing throughout its monthly cycle as well as throughout our lives. It’s not a static thing. A woman’s body is always evolving and changing, and its needs are changing. So, these issues around or these needs around pelvic health, sexual health, core health, they are for a lifetime. And to go through to the other end of the scale, it’s important that our daughters understand their pelvis, their pelvic floor, what it does, what it’s supposed to feel like, what it feels like to do pelvic floor exercises, all of these things. So it really is a lifelong process. And the more that we understand that and can build those connections and foundations, rather than shutting off from areas of our body that maybe we don’t understand or we don’t feel good about, it’s so important to, kind of, start that empowering process of really understanding, what’s going on down there? What’s going on through our monthly cycle? What’s going on when we’re pregnant? What’s going on when we give birth? What’s going on as we head into menopause? And the more we understand and acknowledge, I strongly believe the more empowered we are to keep that strong, connected foundation. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, I’ll make sure the resources that we have mentioned are linked in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. You guys check those out. There’s a special link just for listeners of this podcast. If you struggle with any of these issues, I’ve used the system in the past. And like I said, I noticed not just functional changes, but aesthetic changes as well. And I’m so grateful that there are resources like this, and I’m so grateful that we had this conversation, and that we’re bringing these issues up so that other women can benefit. And Wendy, I’m grateful for your time today. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing. Wendy: Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. Katie: And as always, thanks to all of you for listening, for sharing your most valuable resource, your time, your energy with us today. We’re so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening. Thanks to Our Sponsors This podcast is sponsored by Flying Embers, a better-for-you alcohol brand that brews Hard Kombucha with probiotic-powered Hard Seltzer. All of their products are zero sugar, zero carbs, USDA certified organic, and brewed with live probiotics and adaptogens. They’re also all keto, gluten-free, vegan, and low in calories, so they’re a great option for a functional low-calorie drink that is delicious. I love their flavors. They have some really unique ones, like Grapefruit Thyme and Guava Jalapeno, and I’m a big fan of their Clementine Hibiscus. All of their products are artfully crafted with a dry fermentation process, which gives the Hard Kombucha a perfectly balanced natural sweetness that tastes amazing despite having zero sugar and carbs. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal just for you. Receive 15% off your whole order. To claim this deal, go to flyingembers.com/wellnessmama and use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout and the discount is only available on their website. And they’re also available nationwide at grocery stores, anywhere you find beer and hard seltzers, but check out where to find them and get the discount, flyingembers.com/wellnessmama. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley, my go to source for grass fed probiotic rich beef sticks and now some of my favorite supplements as well. They have a vitamin C complex made with three of the most concentrated natural sources of vitamin C: amla berry, camu camu berry, and unripe acerola cherry. Each nutrient-packed serving delivers 750% of your daily recommended intake of vitamin C – an amount meant to help you thrive, not just survive. Most other vitamin C supplements are derived from GMO corn and only contain one fraction of the vitamin – ascorbic acid. Our Essential C Complex contains the entire spectrum with absolutely no synthetic vitamin C… just organic superfoods! Check this and all of their products out and save 15% at paleovalley.com/mama

I’m thrilled to have Dr. Perlmutter, a board-certified neurologist and five-times New York Times best-selling author here today. You probably know him as the author of the book Grain Brain, which he’s been on the podcast to talk about before. He’s a widely recognized expert in a lot of topics, including things like Alzheimer’s disease and brain health. Today we’re focusing on a new concept called “brain wash.” It’s the natural gap between knowledge and action and how to reclaim our brain and make better, more peaceful decisions. Sounds good to me! Over to Dr. Perlmutter… Episode Highlights Why we often make bad decisions Why there is a gap between knowledge and action How your amygdala affects your actions and how to use this to your advantage How food science is making hyper-palatable foods that change our brain and get us to buy more The way corporate interest groups are targeting your brain and body How to use your prefrontal cortex to your advantage The top-down control system in your brain and how to keep it effective Why inflammation is a critical piece in this process What BDNF is and how to increase it to encourage healthy connections in the brain Natural ways to support brain health: DHA, keto diet (or reduce glucose), turmeric The reason deep sleep is important Ways to track sleep and use this to improve health How to reconnect to our DNA And more! Resources We Mention Dr. Perlmutter Website | Facebook | Instagram Brain Wash blog Brain Wash by Dr. David Perlmutter MD Robert Lustig The Disease Delusion by Jeffrey Bland The Telomere Effect Siddhartha Oura ring Did you enjoy this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact formulation or exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com. This podcast is sponsored by BluBlox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and are made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is truly a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s my new line of personal care products, Wellnesse with an E on the end. You can check them all out there. This episode is all about something called brain wash, which is a new concept about the gap between knowledge and action and how to actually improve our decision-making to reclaim our brain and make better choices without having to fight ourselves to be less emotionally reactive and less impulsive. I’m here with someone whose name you’ve probably heard before. Dr. Perlmutter is a board-certified neurologist and a five-times “New York Times” bestselling author. He’s on the board of directors and a fellow of the American College of Nutrition. He’s the author of the book “Grain Brain,” which many of you probably have heard of. And he’s a widely recognized expert in a lot of topics, including things like Alzheimer’s disease and brain health, and someone I personally very much respect. I like his work very, very much. And I think that this episode you will learn a lot from. His most recent book is called “Brain Wash,” which he co-authored with his son, who’s also a physician. And we go in-depth on this today about reclaiming your brain and rewiring it for success. And I think the episode speaks for itself, tons of practical advice here. So, without further ado, let’s jump in and learn from Dr. Perlmutter. Dr. Perlmutter, welcome. Dr. Perlmutter: Well, this is just the best. Thanks for having me. Katie: I am really excited to chat with you today because I think this is a really important topic. I know you’ve written already on so many important topics and I think people are probably familiar with your work. But I think you’re addressing a really important key that often people still struggle with or gets overlooked. And that’s this idea of, kind of, the gap between knowledge and action. And I think this is a really poignant point for right now because there’s so much now information about health and wellness. And thankfully, so much of this is now mainstream, and thanks to your work, and others, people understand a lot more of what we should be doing but yet people are still having trouble actually doing the things that they know they should be doing. And especially this time of year, it can be hard. So, walk us through that. Let’s start with there. Why are we seeing this gap between knowledge and action? Dr. Perlmutter: You know, it’s an interesting question and I should have a really snappy answer for you right now but it’s something that I keep thinking about all the time. And interestingly, that answer keeps being molded in my mind. And I would say that it’s really kind of a push and pull between what we want on a visceral level and what we think we should do on more of an intellectual level. In other words, our bodies tell us, for example, that we should eat sugar. Why? Because it’s a very powerful survival mechanism. Sugar allowed our ancestors to store body fat and therefore survive during times of caloric scarcity, as an example. And yet, we know intellectually, that eating a lot of sugar in our diets is not the right thing to do, and yet, it’s hard to resist. You know, when somebody comes to your house and has baked something especially for you, and you know it’s full of sugar, you know it’s bad, but there’s so many things that are playing with your emotional responses that it’s difficult to do the right thing, keep the adults in the room and say no. So, why does that happen? Well, you know, the dichotomy here is between areas of our brain that deal with impulsivity, basically giving in to what you want to do right now, versus other areas of your brain that look at our decision-making, in terms of not just our current desires, but also in terms of how this decision is going to affect my health, my well-being, my financial stability, whatever it may be down the line. In other words, future-looking, being able to take a deep breath, weigh other factors aside from just a desire to have the sweet taste, and make a decision based upon that. In other words, again, the analogy is keeping the adults in the room to kind of temper our childlike impulsivity and, you know, quick desire to satisfy ourselves. And I will say one other thing parenthetically, and that is that the other aspect of this more sophisticated thought through response is it goes beyond what might be good for me in the longer term and also embraces what might be good for other people, what might be good for other entities around me, like my community and even the planet upon which I live. We call that empathy. And so, there are actually brain substrates for these activities. The more impulsive decision-making that says, “Screw it, I’m gonna stay in bed today, watch TV, and eat a dozen glazed doughnuts” or whatever it may be. We all know…We have plenty of examples of wrong decision-making, like spending too much time on the internet, you name it, and not going to sleep on time. But nonetheless, a lot of this decision-making impulsivity is derived from a fairly primitive part of the brain called the amygdala. There are two, so it’s amygdalae in plural, that live in the temporal lobes, in other words, the side of the head right inside from maybe where the ear lives. These are the, you know, primitive areas of impulsive reptilian cause and effect kind of activity, X goes directly to Y. As opposed to making decisions that kind of bypass this impulsivity center, this self-centered, narcissistic, quick response center, which does have its upsides I might add, and leverage the ability of another area of the brain called the prefrontal cortex behind your forehead that says, “Wait a minute, why might I not want to eat this food, stay up late, spend a lot of time on the internet, go out with these people, drink too much, etc., spend my money at the racetrack, invest in stocks that I know are…whatever it may be. Decisions that we know may, and probably will, not necessarily have a good outcome. So this is this gift that we have. It’s one-third of the brain’s cortex, which is, you know, percentage-wise, larger than any other animal. Where the chimpanzee might have 13% or 14%, we’re up to a third of our neocortex is this prefrontal cortex. It’s a gift that we have as humans that allows us to take a step back and make our decision-making based upon past experience, based upon current knowledge, based upon a variety of factors and kind of bypassing that, “Gotta eat it. Gotta do it. Gotta do all the things that I know aren’t necessarily good for me,” kind of impulsive activity that, frankly, we’re seeing a lot of these days in our society. Katie: Gotcha. So it seems like an important first step here is understanding and being able to work with some of our natural tendencies or at least recognize when we need to fight them versus necessarily just thinking they’re immediately wrong. So, for instance, it’s widely understood that we don’t need a lot of refined sugar or that this something we should limit. I think I hear very few people trying to make a case that refined sugar is a good thing that we should be consuming a lot of. That said, statistically, we are still as a population consuming a tremendous amount of refined sugar. And I think it’s important to highlight what you said, which is that this is a survival mechanism, that throughout history, this is actually an important part of our evolution and that we needed that for survival. The problem is now living in a world where we have constant access to it, we have to learn how to be much more in control of that. I guess that’s kind of what you call keeping the adult in the room. But is that kind of the first step is recognizing that these are, in some ways, a human trait, rather than thinking that we’re inherently wrong for having them in the first place? Dr. Perlmutter: Yeah, exactly right. And I think that, you know, part of what we really wanted to get across in “Brain Wash” is to kind of offload the blame, the self-blame that is so pervasive where, you know, people wake up the next morning and say, “Why did I do that?” Or eat a big meal and ask themselves…you know, with the wrong foods, for example, like sugar, knowing full well that it’s not going to pave the way towards health and then feeling guilty, “Why can’t I control myself?” You know, you have to understand that sugar hacks into our primitive brain to fuel these desires and basically to fulfill these desires to give us that sense of transient fulfillment. And that said, when we recognize that, you know, there is such an effort to utilize this hack into our primitive brain to make us behave in certain ways, brought about by industry, by adding, you know, sugar to the foods that we eat so that they will eat more of them and buy more of those products, you know, our calling it out is to, kind of, offload the blame, self-blame, and allow people to realize that, you know, this is being done aggressively, not necessarily even in the background. It’s pretty much in the foreground now that, you know, when the 70% of the around 2.2 million foods sold in America’s grocery stores have added sweetener of one form or another, that this is an active attempt to subvert our ability to remain in control. That is what characterizes the so-called Western diet, which is now becoming the global diet. As, you know, people are in these international food manufacturing companies, what I just said, the notion of food manufacturing, that whole notion should give us the willies. Food shouldn’t be manufactured. It should be picked from the ground or wherever it comes from and then consumed. But nonetheless, the alteration, the adulteration of foods to make them not just more palatable, but more desirable, more able to elicit this perceived need that we have to consume them and, you know, really working to undermine our ability to make better decisions. This is an active process on the part of these multinational corporations. Everybody knows it. You know, it’s what food science is all about. How can we sweeten, increase the fat content, and add more salt to foods? In fact, there was a book that had a similar title that looked at how this is happening to sell more product. Once people understand that this is directly tapping into our ability to make the right food decisions, as it were, in this case, it begins to let them gain an understanding that they can perhaps realize that they’ve been manipulated. And this isn’t all their fault. So, you know, we’re trying to offload the guilt that people feel when their decision-making is inappropriate, in terms of their perception by, you know, recognizing that this has been actively pursued by corporate interest. Similarly, on the internet that, you know, the pervasive pop-up ads, the directing of your feed to places where you have visited before. And then with targeted advertisements based upon what your online experience has been in the past directly hacks into areas where you have shown interest and therefore will have less ability to make good decisions because this is an area that lit your brain up in the past. Now, let me tell you, as I say that this is an area that has lit your brain up, companies are now using technology called functional MRI, where they are able to determine exactly how to tweak their advertising so that it lights up the pleasure centers of the brain the most. In days gone by, people who wanted to put an ad on television, or wherever it may go, used what was called a focus group. They would get a bunch of people in a room and say, “Well, which color do you like to the background of our logo? Which message is best to sell XYZ product as far as you’re concerned?” Now, they’re putting people in brain scanners and companies are, in fact, hiring companies to come to their corporate offices with these functional MRI scanners to determine how exactly they can refine their messages so as best to hack into your brain so that you will continue to buy their products, products that you may not necessarily need or even want. Katie: So, it seems like the cause and the solution here is multifaceted in that, over time, there’s a physical and the mental aspects of this. So from a physical perspective, the more we consume these hyper-palatable foods, the more our body and brain are wired to want these hyper-palatable foods. But also the more we mentally are, kind of, conditioned to want those things, the more we perpetually want them over time. Whereas it seems from a solution perspective, when we can break that cycle and get back to eating actual food versus science experiments to disguise this food, that it kind of breaks that chemical-physical cycle within the body. And also over time, we form new habits and new brain patterns that help us avoid those things. Is that…? Am I kind of getting the gist of it right? Dr. Perlmutter: Very, very, very well done. Yes. The more we make, for example, the bad food decisions, the more refined carbohydrates, the more highly processed foods we consume, we all know now that through a variety of mechanisms, not the least of which include changes in our gut bacteria and increased gut permeability, through a variety of mechanisms, we increase a process called inflammation. And as it turns out, inflammation damages the communication between the prefrontal cortex and the more primitive amygdala. We have a superhighway connection between the prefrontal cortex that keeps the amygdala response, the impulsivity area of the brain, in check. The prefrontal cortex is, in fact, the adult in the room. And generally, as we mature, the prefrontal cortex matures and gains more and more control over our less developed behaviors. You know, as we see, for example, the decision-making of teenagers is not always appropriate because that connection between the prefrontal cortex, this top-down control, is less well developed. But we can threaten that top-down control, the ability of this prefrontal cortex to exercise control over this more impulsive part of our brain when there are higher levels of inflammation-type chemicals in the body, so that when we eat inappropriately, eat a diet as I just described, or in addition, don’t get a good night’s sleep or repeatedly don’t get enough restorative sleep, or deprive our bodies of exercise, or deprive ourselves of exposure to nature or constantly engage ourselves in stressful situations, we directly threaten that connection from the prefrontal cortex to the amygdala. There are multiple pathways involved. One of them is called the anterior cingulate. But nonetheless, what we’re creating then is a feed-forward cycle, whereby making bad decisions creates brain wiring that further enhances the likelihood of worse decisions moving forward, such that, for example, not getting enough sleep threatens that connection. Therefore, what do we do the very next day? We downregulate the…we turn off, if you will, the ability of the amygdala to…rather we turn off our regulation of the amygdala by as much as 60%. What I’m saying is just one night of nonrestorative sleep is associated with an upregulation, increased activity of the impulsivity center of the brain, bad decisions by 60% with just one night of not getting enough restorative sleep. When this continues night after night, not getting enough good sleep, as we look at food choices and dietary choices, it translates in the research to an approximately 300 increased calorie consumption on a daily basis. And, you know, after 10 days, that’s a pound of body fat. And it doesn’t take long to you to realize that that’s going to accumulate body fat. And what does body fat do? It inhibits our ability to get a good night’s sleep. Body fat is profoundly pro-inflammatory. So, now that we’re not sleeping, we’re not making good decisions that relates to our food, that relates to our exercise, as it relates getting back to even getting a good night’s sleep because we’ll stay up later, we’ll expose ourselves to digital media, getting blue light, etc., inhibiting melatonin, no good sleep. So, what we offer in “Brain Wash” are off-ramps to these very, very dangerous feed-forward cycles. What might that off-ramp look like? Well, you know, we offer a whole attended program, but it might be that, you know, the whole 10 days of exercise, nature exposure, meditation, stress reduction, gratitude journal, dietary change, etc. is a lot to think about on the front end. So, what we offer are the small steps, the off-ramps that might work for you as an individual. Maybe for you, it’s just looking at the environment in which you fall asleep at night. Is it dark enough? Is it cool enough? Does your partner have sleep apnea or does he or she move his or her legs around at night and awaken you? So, you know, even sleep is a great way of entering into better decision-making. It might be a dietary change. It might be nurturing your gut bacteria with prebiotic and probiotic foods. It might be getting out and taking a walk around the block if that’s the first step in getting you to, you know, resume exercise. It might be as simple as nature exposure, which is profoundly influential in re-engaging ourselves in terms of the prefrontal cortex. We know that meditation is a powerful way, as we’ve seen in multiple techniques of brain imaging, a powerful way to light up that prefrontal cortex and that’s the adult in the room. So there are a lot of ways to reestablish this control. Katie: Gotcha. Yeah, one thing I love to do as a thought exercise in my own life that’s been helpful for me is using the principle of inversion. Meaning like, often it’s easier to figure out the things related to what we don’t want than what we do want. So rather than trying to figure out all the intricacies of how can I be healthy or how can I reduce inflammation, I’ll sometimes turn that on its head and say like, “Okay, well, if I wanted to, how would I create inflammation?” Or for my case, it was, if I wanted to create autoimmune disease, how would I do that? And that’s easier to define, oh, I would not get enough sleep. I would eat really crappy food. I would be stressed all the time. And hey, that’s actually what I did and how I got autoimmune disease. And so then you can from there go, “Well, if that’s how you do that, then how do I…? Can I do the opposite to get closer to what I do want? And from there, kind of, creating systems that create habits. But walk us through some of these off-ramps? How can we build these systems into our lives to start doing things like reducing inflammation? Because certainly, it seems like all the data right now is pointing more and more toward inflammation being a common uniting factor in all forms of chronic disease and also in metabolic dysfunction, which we now know is a big factor in kind of long-term results with this virus and with any kind of health condition. So, what are some of those tangible ways? I know you have a whole program on this, which I’ll link to, but what are some of these tangible ways we can start implementing? Dr. Perlmutter: Well, again, I can say that it should be looked upon from the individual in terms of what’s gonna be the first step? You know, I think one of the most powerful leverage point levers to pull is diet. But that’s probably one of the most difficult, though maybe the most powerful, for people because they’ve known this for a long time and it’s probably their weakest point. So, you know, in dealing, for example, with diabetics, it seems appropriate that we’re gonna talk about your diet. And I have found that that’s really not the way to go because, you know, people with diabetes have seen multiple physicians and other types of healthcare providers. And that’s exactly where they go and they follow that with exercise. And I think it may be surprising, for example, for a type 2 diabetic, that you would begin by saying, “Hey, let’s put the diet and exercise on the back burner for the next couple of weeks. Let’s look at sleep. Or let’s look at nature exposure or even the idea of meditation.” Because now, once that person comes back in a few weeks, they’re in a better position then to embrace other modalities like dietary change, like maybe we give them some exercise because we’ve offloaded, you know, one very important straw from the camel’s back that’s inhibiting good decision-making. And then you move to food and you look at other aspects of their lifestyle. You say, for example, that maybe we need to talk about how much time you’re spending in front of a screen. We know that 42% of the time that Americans are awake, they have their eyes fixed on a screen or another, whether that’s their smartphone, their pad of one form or another, even the television. That’s 42% of their waking time. And, you know, there’s not a lot of time that we’re awake. Let’s say, you know, maybe if we sleep 8 hours, then it’s 16 hours in the day. So, you know, it’s a time when people are running on programs that are controlled by others. That’s what screen time is all about. It’s relinquishing your decision-making. It’s relinquishing your control. So, again, we learn from others. And that’s hardwired into our genome that we…and we should. That allows us to progress. But that is a survival adaptation, like, the desire to eat sweets. But what we’re seeing is that these adaptations for our survival are points of exploitation from others, from media, from food manufacturers, etc. So, I think that, again, you know, to hone in on your question, I would say, it’s really important to see what’s going to work for the individual. And I would say, to come at this tangentially is a good thing. And rather, you know, if somebody’s got a crappy diet, the best place to start is not to address the diet because you can be sure that that person has had countless diets, has countless books on his or her shelf, from A to Z, from the Atkins to the Zone diet. So that’s A to Z, you name it, and these diets have failed. Why have they failed? It’s not that they’re not necessarily good diets, it’s that what has failed is the decision-making part to implement whatever that diet may be, whether it’s keto, or paleo, or vegan, or whatever it may be. It’s not that it’s a good or bad diet in terms of lowering blood sugar, weight loss, etc., it’s because the decision-making, the commitment part is lacking. That’s what needs the attention. And the moment that people begin to realize that that’s what’s been taken from them and it’s not my fault, boy, that’s an epiphany, that’s a very empowering moment. Katie: Yeah, and it gives you a totally different focus. And I think it’s a different approach, like you said, to a lot of the approaches out there, and also, hopefully, reduces decision fatigue as well. I know that’s something that’s been talked about in psychology is that we have a limited amount of decision-making and willpower capability. And so when we’re constantly depleting that, trying to focus on one system or something, I think people have a tendency to fatigue and then have trouble following through. And certainly, what we see is at the beginning of the year, often, people will jump into a new plan and be very able to comply for a certain number of days or even a couple of weeks, and then they hit that willpower and decision-making fatigue and then because it was all built up in that, when they fall off the wagon, they kind of just revert completely to old ways versus at least keeping part of that. So I think that’s such a good strategy to have a different focus, rather than trying to just hone in on the diet, even if diet is the part that’s gonna make the biggest difference, do things that help us to have more impulse control, and to reduce inflammation makes that easier over time. And I think people are familiar probably with your past work on the brain, in general, and how we can support it both from that physical perspective and through the mental and thought side as well. I think this is a really, really important topic. I’m so glad that you’re addressing it that way. And over time, so basically, like, by doing that, we’re able to, sort of, rewire the brain to make these changes easier and more lasting. Is that kind of the approach? Dr. Perlmutter: Exactly. And as we’ve talked about, you know, over the years, what an amazing process that is. We call that neuroplasticity, where the brain is actually able to enhance the connectiveness, if you will of, you know, in various factors, one part to another. And that’s, you know, what learning is all about. And the more you do something, it’s been said that neurons that fire together, wire together, meaning the more you do something, ultimately, these pathways become more and more indelible. It’s the process of learning how to swing a golf club, if you will. You know, but in just getting back to our previous discussion a moment ago, and that is that the idea of addressing a person who needs to correct his or her diet by addressing their diet is extremely, with all due respect, myopic. It’s one punch, as opposed to the one-two punch of diet and exercise. You know, that’s pretty well accepted. Okay. We’re gonna talk about diet and exercise. But I’m saying not a one, or one-two punch, a one, two, three, four, five, six, seven-punch, bring as many things to bear, not on the decision that’s made, but on the mechanism that underlies decision-making. So, you know, when I speak to groups of physicians, of doctors, often, you know, I have slides that show Mr. Jones, who comes into the office and he’s overweight, he’s, let’s say, type 2 diabetic and he’s making bad decisions. And, you know, I try to make the point that we’re not trying here to labor over what are the decisions? Should a diabetic be on a ketogenic diet, a low-carb diet over a long period of time, etc., what the decisions are, but let’s take a step back and focus on the decision-making because the biggest problem in these individuals is their ability to make the decision in the first place, not figuring out what the decision should be, not figuring out the number of calories derived from fat carbohydrates and protein and micronutrients. That’s really, with all due respect, not the hard part. That’s not where they fail. The hard part, as any healthcare provider will tell you, is called compliance. And when patients don’t have that ability to follow through, they get labeled as being non-compliant. In the doctor’s notes, it says, “Well, Mrs. Jones has been non-compliant with our recommendations.” You know, basically pointing the finger, you know, at her, and she goes home, or he goes home and feels awful because it’s, again, this pattern repeating itself of self-blame, and that is so destructive. We’ve got to recognize that our ability to make good decisions is actively being taken away from ourselves by others. And I mentioned earlier how our survival adaptations are, again, these entry points for our own exploitation by others. And step one is to recognize that that’s being done every single day. So, once that happens, you realize that you can, kind of, you know, offset the self-blame. Katie: Yeah, I think you’re right. that’s such a part of that vicious cycle. And probably what leads to, like, the impulse thing. I think that’s another big key of this is getting to a point, putting systems in place to have better impulse control and, like you said, to use our prefrontal cortex to our advantage versus being trapped in that more impulsive side. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. 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BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and are made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is truly a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. Talk a little bit more about the program that you guys have and how people can find that to start rewiring their brain. Dr. Perlmutter: I will, but before I get there, I wanna just, I think, pick up on where you may have been going a moment ago, and that is the idea of rewiring. So, we do whatever it is we wanna do, whatever activity we want to become more and more indelible in the brain, we do. Whether it’s learning to eat right, getting more exercise, learning how to swing a tennis racquet, you name it, learning how to play the piano. We then do the activity but we also, at the same time, have to do what we can to enhance the biochemical pathways, the genetic pathways that allow them this connection of one brain cell to the next, this neuroplasticity that I mentioned earlier, or synaptic plasticity, which is the formation of the synapses between brain cells that becomes more indelible the more we do something. And I just would mention that we can enhance that process by increasing in our bodies the presence of a particular chemical called BDNF, which stands for brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It comes from the brain, that’s where it’s derived, neurotrophic, good for neurons, factor. This is a chemical that enhances this growth of connections in the brain when we’re engaged in an activity. I will mention, it also enhances the growth of new brain cells, which we call neurogenesis. So, the question that people would want answered would be, what can I do today to increase neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, paving the way, priming the soil then for my ability to rewire my brain? The best thing that anyone can do to increase BDNF is to get more exercise. Aerobic exercise dramatically increases BDNF. It’s increased on the ketogenic diet. It’s increased with consuming DHA, which is an omega 3 found in fish oil. There’s an algae form as well. It’s increased with consuming turmeric. So there are a lot of ways that people can nurture the soil, such that now when I’m ready to increase my connection to the prefrontal cortex, it’s going to happen more appropriately and more indelibly. So then we engage in the activities. And as we describe in the “Brain Wash,” we have a 10-day plan that looks at and describes how we can start looking at our reconnection with nature, our reconnection with other people, we are social beings. Dietary changes that are so important to lower inflammation. Why? Because inflammation threatens the connection. Looking at our sleep in a, you know, very in-depth way. We explore that extensively. And, you know, truthfully, we clearly came out in favor of wearable devices that can look at your sleep in terms of the dynamics of your sleep, the characterization, not just the time that you are asleep, but the various parts of sleep that we know are important. Deep sleep, for example, is the time that our brains clean house, if you will, activation of what has been called the glymphatic system. REM sleep for consolidation and contextualization of memory. How long does it take to go to sleep? What is your total length of sleep? I happen to wear a device called an Oura Ring, which gives me a great sense as to, you know, not just how was my sleep last night, but also allows me to tinker with it a little bit to see if eating later is gonna affect my sleep, which in my case, it dramatically does. And if have a bigger lunch or a bigger dinner. How late I work on the computer. Do I wear blue-light-blocking glasses? How cold do we set the room? All the various factors allows you to see what works for you and how to individualize your approach because, you know, one thing is for sure, in this age of personalized medicine, we’re all different. There are some broad-stroke recommendations, that’s for sure. But the subtle nuances of, for example, why you may not be getting enough restorative sleep and therefore disconnecting from your prefrontal cortex are different from the next person. So, I think, ultimately, you know, the decision has to be about doing the things that allow us to reconnect. So we describe in the book what’s called “disconnection syndrome” on multiple levels, that this disconnection syndrome is what we’ve been talking about, this disconnection of the amygdala, the impulsivity center from the prefrontal cortex, the more adult long-term thinking center. That’s disconnected when that pathway is threatened. Our disconnection from our microbiome, the disconnection that we have from our genome. We know that our day-to-day lifestyle choices affect our gene expression, our disconnection from each other, and even our disconnection from the planet upon which we live. So it’s all about reconnecting. And most importantly, I would say that, you know, the two areas where we need the most reconnection are reconnecting to the prefrontal cortex. That’s, you know, really, kind of, a neurophysiological reconnection. And I would say, also reconnecting to our DNA. You know, the foundation of the so-called paleo movement was first predicated on this notion that here we have our genome that really hasn’t undergone any significant change in 50,000 years, 70,000 years, and it has evolved over hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years to allow us to survive. That’s what our genome does. It allows us to reproduce and continue on as a species. It is an intimate relationship with our environment. And our environment includes not just, you know, the climate, but the food that we eat, the activity we get, the sleep that we…the stress that we’re under, the interaction with others. Our social interactions all influence, day in and day out, the expression of our DNA for better or for worse. Now, the relationship to a particular environment is one that has remained static for hundreds of thousands of years. Suddenly, just now, in the last second of our time on Earth, this relationship has been powerfully threatened by challenging our DNA with signals coming from foods, the likes of which our DNA has never seen, by challenging our DNA from signals from our gut bacteria, which have been altered in ways that have never been described. We know what our ancestors’ microbiomes’ gut bacteria looked like. We have the ability through technology to evaluate fossilized teeth and fossilized stool that is found in caves with fossils of our distant ancestors to determine what their microbiome bacteria must have looked like because we’re able to collect the DNA from these fossils. And what we find when we do that are two things. Number one, that the makeup of the gut bacteria remain very static for thousands and thousands of years and that the makeup of those bacteria is similar to what we see in cultures that haven’t really been westernized. They’re a few of those that still remain on the planet. So, the point that I’m making is that this sacred relationship that we have with our DNA is unlike anything that was part of my education. We were told that DNA, what we get from our ancestors, is locked in a glass case and determines everything about us. And we now know that that is absolutely not true. We know that the science of epigenetics tells us that moment to moment, we influence the expression of our DNA in a good way or a bad way. We can get back to what you mentioned earlier. We can enhance inflammation. We can enhance autoimmunity. We can basically shorten our lives just by tinkering with the expression of our DNA. At the same time, we know that we can cause our DNA to express things that are good for us. We can activate biochemical pathways that code for disease resistance and longevity just by making better choices. So, we’ve come full circle. We’ve come back to decision-making and how we can make better decisions. Katie: Yeah, and just to weigh in on that I think you’re right, I’d like to highlight, we are all different. That’s been one of the big lessons for me in the last couple of years is just how individualized and personalized we each are. But at the same time, like you said, there are some universal things that are largely generally applicable. And I’m with you that I think sleep is a huge one of those. And I’m yet to find any expert who is making a case that we can be much healthier with less sleep or poor quality sleep. But the specifics of how to get great sleep do seem to vary somewhat from person to person. Like you, I also find I do better when I don’t eat after dark, when I’m careful with my light exposure. I found for instance, things like jumping in my cold plunge at night before bed actually really improves deep sleep, although that’s not gonna maybe be the same for everyone. I also use a chiliPAD for that same reason, like you mentioned, with the temperature. And then some things I found over time, like getting enough protein early in the day seems to improve sleep quality. At night, I think there’s a lot of experimentation for each of us when it comes to what are gonna be those factors that really move the needle on sleep for us? But I think we’ve probably all also experienced, to your point, that how much different we feel on a night of great sleep versus a night of poor sleep and how much easier it is to make those good decisions when we have our tank full from a really good night of sleep. So I love that you brought it back to that and tied it into decision-making, such an important point. I’m a big fan of the Oura Ring as well. But like you said, you’ve made a case for all of the different factors that go into this. And I know you do have a program that helps people go even deeper on this. So, I would be remiss if we didn’t at least mention that before we wrap up. So, how can people find that? Dr. Perlmutter: That program is available in “Brain Wash.” That’s a book that is available everywhere. Whatever online or bookstore you wanna go to, that’s where you’ll find it. It’s in 15 languages now. So that’s a good thing. And yeah, again, the message there is that we first have to set up the platform for better decision-making, and then making those decisions is going to be facilitated. And also, as I mentioned at the beginning of our time together, that it’s really important to reveal that there’s great value for others in manipulating our decision-making. Once you get that, once you recognize that that is happening, my goodness, a light goes on and you realize that, “Hey, that’s not gonna continue in my life. I’m gonna grab the reins of control here and really begin to control my destiny as opposed to, you know, having other people manipulate my choices and my destiny for their own good.” And I would say to do that lovingly, not aggressively, not in a castigating way but do it with a deep breath and, you know, a smile on your face and make the decision that you’re going to move on for better things in your life. I mean, you know, that’s what you’re doing. You know, it’s why you have this social outreach is to give people tools to have a better outcome. And, you know, what we’re trying to do is really focus on that ability that they have to use the tools that people like yourself are giving them. That’s the big stumbling point. So, again, the program and everything we’re talking about is, of course, in the book “Brain Wash,” and available everywhere. Katie: Awesome. Yeah, like you said, available everywhere. I’ll also link to it at wellnessmama.fm. For any of you guys who are driving or exercising, all of the links to everything we talked about will be there. Another somewhat related but a little bit unrelated question I love to ask at the end of interviews is if there is a book or a number of books, besides your own, that have had a profound impact on your life that you would recommend and if so, what they are and why? Dr. Perlmutter: Geez, that’s hard to say. So in my position, people ask for blurbs or, I guess, supportive comments on their books. So I get four or five books a week to read. I’m actually reading a new book by Dr. Robert Lustig that isn’t out yet. And so I’m probably not gonna tell you the name but I found that book to be incredibly inspiring. I think one of the most inspiring books is a book called “The Disease Delusion” by Dr. Jeffrey Bland. And it really challenges us to think about the whole model that we engage in terms of health and wellness and even the practice of medicine, that we focus on this, sort of, artificial notion that, you know, we’re good until a disease happens. And really, you know, our entire health structure and ring health and wellness structure seems to be geared at targeting disease. You know, we talk about the various healthcare plans that are offered to people. You know, whether it’s Obamacare or the next iteration, it’s all about healthcare. And, you know, what Dr. Bland calls to our attention is, no, it’s about disease care. And if you think about it, he’s right, that, you know, really what health insurance and Medicare, etc. are all about is taking care of you when you get sick. And Dr. Bland submits, as do many of us, that our focus really needs to be on extending the healthspan and reducing the time in our lives when we are in that disease span part. So, really focusing on keeping people healthy, I think is profound. So I recently read “The Telomere Effect” by Dr. Epel, similar kind of discussion there, that, you know, we need to…As in her case, she talks about how it’s reflected by the length of our telomeres. But her recommendations, lifestyle recommendations, I think are very important. So, those are two very important books in my life. I would say that perhaps on a more spiritual level, “Siddartha” was always and remains a meaningful book for me because I’ve, sort of, seen myself as seeking and learning along the way and, hopefully, that will continue. Katie: Wonderful. I will link to all those in the show notes as well for people for continued reading. I’m always looking for book recommendations myself and I’m gonna order several of those. Dr. Perlmutter, it’s always a pleasure. You’re such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you, as always, for sharing your time today. And I hope that we have the chance to have more conversations here in the future. Dr. Perlmutter: Well, I’m looking forward to it as well. And let me, again, thank you for having me on your show today. Katie: And thank you guys, as always, for listening, for sharing your most valuable resource, your time, with both of us today. We’re so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening. Thanks to Our Sponsors This podcast is sponsored by BluBlox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact formulation or exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com.

You all really enjoyed Shawn Wells the first time he was on, and I’m glad to say he’s back again! Shawn has written a fascinating new book, The Energy Formula, and it’s safe to say we all want more of that! Just to tell you a little about Shawn, he is one of the world’s leading nutritional biochemists and has personally formulated over 500 supplements and cosmeceuticals, as well as patents on 10 novel ingredients. He is also formerly a chief clinical dietitian with over a decade of clinical experience. Today we cover some very specific advice on ways you can have more energy, and how this equation is a little bit different for each individual person. Episode Highlights With Shawn Wells The biggest factors for having more energy A subtle but important shift in mindset that makes a big difference in health What we can actually learn from data and studies (and what the limitations are) How to increase compliance and actually stick to changes Some simple labs to track to see if something is working for you (HA1c, CRP, oxidized LDL), glucose, HRV, etc How to figure out the healthiest diet for you personally What sirtuins are and why these matter (for aging) Some easy exercise hacks to make it more efficient A reason to stop doing cardio The power of “I am” statements for creating change How a growth mindset helps us improve in every area Ways to increase resilience and use hormesis to our advantage How stoicism relates to health And more! Resources We Mention Shawn Wells The Energy Formula by Shawn Wells Heads Up Health Vitamin D 147: Using Heart Rate Variability with HeartMath to Stop Stress & Improve Nervous System Health The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World by Cal Newport Did you enjoy this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, my go-to source for functional mushrooms like Lion’s Mane, chaga, cordyceps and more. Recently, I’ve really been enjoying their protein powder… it’s new and it’s delicious. it has 18g of pure plant proteins, 7 functional mushrooms and adaptogens, the realest organic vanilla, and not a single grain, gum, or gram of stevia. I love adding the vanilla to a smoothie with some berries for an easy meal (and my kids love it too). The Peanut Butter flavor blended with some cacao and macadamia milk makes a great protein-packed afternoon pick me up. If you haven’t tried four sigmatic, I also love their lion’s mane coffee in the morning and their reishi packets at night! Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This podcast is sponsored by Paleovalley. They make amazing grass fed beef sticks are the only beef sticks in the USA made from 100% grass fed/grass finished beef and organic spices that are naturally fermented. They use old world methods of fermenting their sticks so they are shelf stable without the use of chemicals or questionable ingredients. Virtually all other similar snack stick products use GMO corn-based citric acid encapsulated in hydrogenated oils to process their products. Thanks to this fermentation process, they don’t have any of that junk and each stick contains gut-friendly probiotics! My kids love them and I can never keep them in the house, so now we are just on a regular auto order. Go to paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the end, if you haven’t checked it out, my new line of personal care products, including hair care and toothpaste that is mineral-rich, to help your teeth be stronger and whiter from the outside in. I am here today with a follow-up guest who I really enjoyed the first time around, Shawn Wells. And we’re here to talk about his new book, which is, “The Energy Formula” and ways we can biohack from home that are not expensive or complicated. Shawn is an incredible expert in a lot of different areas, and he’s become a personal friend. But he’s considered the world’s leading nutritional biochemist and an expert on health optimization. He has personally formulated over 500 supplements and cosmeceuticals. And he has patents on 10 novel ingredients. Online, he’s often called the “Ingredientologist.” And he is also formerly a chief clinical dietitian with over a decade of clinical experience. He’s also considered a world-renowned thought leader on mitochondrial health, and he is often paid to speak on many of these topics. We go deep on a lot of them today. And he gives some very specific advice on ways that you can help improve your own health, have more energy, and then some simple tests that you can take to figure out over time how things are working for you, specifically. You guys know that I’m big on personalization and individualization when it comes to health, and that’s been part of my own journey over the last couple of years. We go deep on some specialized tips to do just that in this episode. So join me in welcoming Shawn. Shawn Wells, welcome back. Shawn: Thank you for having me on, Mama. Katie: I’m excited to chat with you again. It’s always a pleasure. And it’s really fun when we get to record our conversations and share them. And I know that you have a new book coming out, which I’m most excited to chat with you about today. So, to start broad, kind of give us the big picture of what the new book is about and what inspired you to write this one. Shawn: It’s called “The ENERGY Formula,” and it’s an acronym. So, it’s an Experiment like biohacking. Nutrition that includes things like keto, and paleo, and Mediterranean, and a discussion of all those things. Exercise, so it includes things like hacks, like high-intensity interval training, blood flow restriction, intraset stretching. Routines like circadian rhythm, morning and nighttime routines, how to nail those down. Growth mindset, like stoic thinking, and also building resilience through things like fasting. And then lastly, Your tribe, and having that community around you. So it’s a framework and there’s supplements throughout. I have these formulators corners for, like, each chapter. There’s different supplements that I recommend. Like in growth, there’s nootropic supplements, brain-boosting supplements. And in nutrition, there’s a discussion on polyphenols and anti-aging compounds. And it’s really cool. There’s also something called Resource Hacks throughout that really gives you, like, the devices I’m using, the products I’m using, like, you know, sunlight and sauna, and some that fix sleep tape, and what brands of supplements I use, and just everything. And I have zero affiliate codes or anything associated with it. It’s all just the stuff I use. Katie: That’s awesome. Okay. So let’s start at the beginning, if you don’t mind, and we’re kinda just gonna go point by point because most of the people listening are moms. There are some who aren’t, but most are. And I feel like, I’ve said from the beginning, if you can give moms extra energy and bandwidth, you improve the whole family because we’re often the emotional support and energetic drivers for the family and making sure everything gets done. So, I’m really excited to jump in with you today on all these points. But let’s start with E. So walk us through just some of the high-level stuff we need to know about the first point of this. And obviously, we’ll make sure everybody has a link to get the book as well. But let’s start at the beginning. Shawn: Yeah, so it’s Experiment. So, it’s biohacking, but I like drilling into the idea of it’s someone that’s willing to experiment, willing to try that receives the benefits in life. You know, there’s that mindset I think we’re entrained with that you either win or you lose. And people get conditioned to fear of failure. But if you look at Tim Ferriss’s “Tools of Titans,” there’s a mindset there that almost every person that was a success that he interviewed had, and it was, one, a strong morning routine, which I get into later in the book, but two, a mindset of not viewing things as a failure, but viewing things as experiments and you win or you learn. Thomas Edison, when he was working on the light bulb had, obviously, a number of these experiments that did not work out and result in a light bulb. But collectively, they did. And he would say, “No, it’s not a failed experiment. Like, now I know what it’s not.” And so, understanding your bio-individuality is so key here, and that’s the key to experiment. Like, I love studies. But there’s no study on 8 billion people. So, we need to take data and say, you know, any good study ends in…for these 20 people, we saw these statistical averages, including these people that dropped out in the process. And we need to do more research. That’s usually like the way a good study would end. You don’t want to over-infer anything because everything works differently for everyone. And then there’s the whole idea of compliance. I can tell you something that may work great for you, but are you going to do it, and stick with it, and make it part of your lifestyle? That matters. Like, when I was a dietician working clinically, you know, you could tell someone to not drink four liters of Coca-Cola a day and go to zero and start drinking water, but if they don’t do it, and give up, and just go back to drinking all that Coke, then is that successful? So I started viewing things through the lens of, like, what’s realistic for you at this point in your life? Can you get down to two cans of coke a day? And then let’s talk again. So, you know, that’s what I walk through is, like, thinking through what works for you, doing one thing at a time, that’s also the scientific method, like we tend to with, you know, New Years, try and do like 40 things at once, and shotgun it, and hope it all works. But you don’t know what’s working for you and not working for you. You need to do the scientific method and see, “Okay, this one thing, I can do that. I can go do CrossFit or F45, or whatever. I can stick with that and do that for two weeks.” And you’re like, “Yeah, this is good. I’m adding this to my lifestyle.” And okay, let me see how paleo works with my new workout routine. And you stick with that for a couple of weeks, and you say, “Okay, I think this is working. I can add this,” and start stacking up things. But if you do like 10 things at once, you’re taking all these pills, you’re going to CrossFit, you’re doing paleo, you’re, you know, getting peptides and doing stem cells, and 100 other things, you don’t know what’s working and not working. And then you’ll just end up giving up everything. So, that’s a big part of the experimentation is knowing that you’re unique, you’re bio-individually unique from everyone else. And to just approach things with I win or I learn, which means I win or I win. Katie: I love that reframe. And you’re right. I think any successful person you can point to in history has had that mindset. And it’s so vital. I love that you brought that up and also the personalization aspect with the idea of reframing as failure is good. As an example, right now, my kids are all getting into chess. I’ve got a couple that have always been into chess, but all of them are kind of getting on board right now. And the ones who are just learning kept getting frustrated because they kept losing to the ones who have been playing for years. And I’ve got one who’s just naturally really good at chess. And I keep trying to remind them, when you’re playing chess, the first 200 games, winning is not even your goal. Learning is your goal. Don’t even worry about who won. Your whole purpose right now is to learn. And I think it’s sometimes easier to think that way in a game but we don’t realize it applies to almost every aspect of life. And like you said, when we think of it that way, there really is no losing because there’s either a lesson or you already figured it out and you won. I think the personalization key, I know you and I have chatted about this in person, is so important right now. And I’m so glad we’re seeing this shift because, for a long time, it felt like people were looking for a system that could just follow exactly like just tell me a checklist of what to do. And people ask me that with my own weight loss the last couple of years and, like, I can’t. I can tell you where to start trying to find some things that might be your puzzle pieces but I can’t give you a black and white checklist. And I think that is such a vital thing. And I love that you start there. Because it’s so easy to want to just find that silver bullet or just find that checklist. And at the end of the day, it doesn’t exist. And I’m 100% with you on the experimentation and figuring that out. Do you have any suggestions or tips for what to track, what variables to look at so someone can know over time if something’s working for them? Shawn: Oh, yeah. You know, I go through that quite a bit in my book. And I also have these surveys that you take, one, to kind of see where your baseline is and see how you’re improving, but I also mentioned a number of metrics that you can use. I mean, not only things like blood work, there’s three in particular that I think are very profound that everyone should be looking at that I think could reshape healthcare is if we were looking at inflammation, oxidation, and glycation, which are all hallmarks of aging, which are all hallmarks of mitochondrial dysfunction, which is at the core of disease and lack of energy, the mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell. And so, hemoglobin A1c for glycation, CRP, C-reactive protein for inflammation, and then oxidized LDL for oxidation. And looking at these, this is when you’re starting to see dysfunction take place on that metabolic level. And you can assess biological aging. You can assess likelihood for disease. You can assess energy status to some degree because the mitochondria are not healthy or there’s not enough of them by looking at those. But really the biggest key, I would say, is do you feel energized? Do you feel happy? Not all the time. We need to feel our emotions, but in general, do you feel satisfied in life? And I think…I was just with a doctor, Dr. Dan Stickler, who’s a peptide expert in Austin, and we were talking about these doctors, these medical practitioners, if you will, that are in Africa in these certain tribes that when you go to them, and you say, you’re not feeling well or you’re sick, the first thing they ask is, “How long has it been since you’ve danced and sang?” And there’s, like, some profundity to that. Like, it’s very profound to think about, like, when you’re happy, when you’re energized, you dance and you sing. And when you’re not, it’s repressed and your heads down in life. So, we wanna be thriving and not surviving. I think that’s the biggest key metric is how much are you enjoying life and how do you feel? Katie: I agree. I started tracking…I do labs regularly, including the ones you mentioned. And I use Heads Up Health for keeping all my labs in one place, but I also keep just a running note in the Notes app of my phone that has daily just kind of food inputs, workouts, and then I also put those in like my Oura Ring app and things like that, just to be able to see patterns over time. And I love your suggestion of, you know, just pay attention to your body, but also I only add one variable at a time. Give yourself time to…And I’m the worst about that. For a long time, I’d be like, “Okay, so this time, I’m gonna experiment with three new supplements and I’m gonna try this new workout.” And I would do it all at once and then I couldn’t tell what was having the effect. I would see a change, but I couldn’t pinpoint where it was coming from. So now I’m a big fan of anything new, I’m gonna add in one at a time, so I can actually gauge what’s going on. I also love testing myself just I’ve been experimenting with glucose monitoring, continuous glucose monitoring, which has been a fun metric. And also HRV, which I think we touched on briefly in the first one, but just as a refresher, kind of give us a reminder of what HRV is, and how we can use that to kind of indicate how our body’s responding to something. Shawn: Yeah, heart rate variability, HRV, is something that you can track with these things like you’re talking about, like with Oura, and Fitbit, and Biostrap, and the Garmin f?nix. And it’s a good measure of how recovered you are. Dr. Stickler and I were actually looking at…I was playing twos volleyball, which is very intense, like, just very dynamic. And I played for four hours, which is a lot at a high competitive level. And we looked at it and for about two hours, I was doing good, but my second two hours, I’d plummeted. And I played through it. And I’ve thought my whole life, like, that’s what I’m supposed to do. It’s just, like, push until you drop. But he showed me, like, over the next three days, like, everything was just tanked on me. And so, you know, immunity, recovery, like mentally, like sleep quality, all of this is tied into how properly are you recovering? And there’s the idea of overtraining is another word for under-recovering. So, you’re not giving yourself enough nutrition, hydration, sleep, de-stressing, going into the parasympathetic state. Like, we tend to stay very sympathetically driven. And you need to, like, get that vagal tone, where you tap into parasympathetic with, you know, meditation, and relaxation, and listening to music and, you know, doing poetry and, you know, whatever, like, those things are that gets you to relax, but we tend to stay very sympathetically driven with the hustle and grind, which is like sympathetic and ultra sympathetic. And so HRV is a great measure of readiness to train, readiness to go into a sympathetic state, essentially. Katie: Got it. Yeah, I’ve noticed that, like, right now, today, mine is lower because I’m recovering from an intense workout. So today is a rest day for me. I’ll probably sauna and hydrate and that’s about it for today. But it’s so fun to be able to have all of these tools now directly at our fingertips to be able to gauge if something’s helping or not. And I know you’re big on this too, but there’s so much freedom in that data and in the personalization because, like you said, there’s no study on each of us individually. So even if we look at clinical data, that’s an overview based on averages. But we can now look at how is my individual body responding? And we can also now look at our own genes. We just have the availability of so much information that we can get so incredibly personalized. And I know you’ve walked through a lot of those strategies. So, let’s move on to the second one, to the N, and walk us through some of the high-level points there because I feel like this is one where on the one hand, we have a lot more consensus maybe than we have in the past and people understand the importance of real food and of avoiding certain things. But then we almost seem to fight over, like, the 3% we disagree on more than we ever have. So, take us through some of the high-level stuff on this. Shawn: Exactly, Katie. One of the things that I talk about is that we all should agree on is whole food. Like, that’s just basics. And it sounds very simple. But how much whole food are we actually eating? You know, there’s so much food engineering, ultra-processed food, high bliss point food that’s literally made for you to overeat it. And that’s the problem is it’s overriding satiety, which is fullness signals. And this food is meant to do that. It’s meant to trigger dopamine and serotonin. Like, you’re literally impulsively driven to eat this food. So whether you’re talking about carnivore, Mediterranean, paleo, vegan, a lot of these diets now, the core hallmark is eating whole food. Like, you could eat carnivore and just eat, like, spam and hot dogs, I guess, but like, the idea is to have, you know, grass-fed, grass-finished, like organ meats and, you know, stuff like that. And then same with vegan. Like, you could have Coca-Cola and gummy bears and be vegan. But plant-based nutrition and Vegan is the idea to have whole foods. And if we look at these diets, with those like supercentenarians, these Blue Zone people, that’s what we see is they’re eating whole food. That’s probably the key. But if I was to pick a diet, like I talk about paleo, I do talk about keto, although keto, I think, is a more advanced strategy. Again, once I would stack up whole food, getting rid of sugar, having some kind of exercise plan in place, and then having some kind of fasting in place, like intermittent fasting, something that’s fairly easy, then I might look at keto. So, it’s those things that I think are essential first. And then, you know, Dr. Daniel Stickler and I were talking, he has a lot of research. And we probably agreed that if we were to pick like one diet and, again, bio-individuality, compliance matters, whatever, if you were trying to pick the healthiest diet, it would be Mediterranean keto. That would probably be, like…I mean, just with the data, like olive oil is such a powerful fatty acid. It’s been shown to be a sirtuin activator, which is anti-aging, along with things like red wine, which has resveratrol, which is another sirtuin activator. The sirtuin genes are the aging genes, the resilience genes if you will. And then keto just being low carb and promoting ketones, it’s going to keep insulin lower. It’s going to keep blood glucose lower and glycation, that blood sugar damage lower. The entire world doesn’t need to do this, the Western world. It definitely benefits us because we just have such a high glycemic ultra-processed food diet that keto undoes a lot of that. And it provides an alternate fuel source that it’s good, I think, to be metabolically flexible. I do, kind of, cyclical and targeted ketogenic dieting. So, I still have my carbs. I still have fun carbs. I still have, you know, cake if I’m going to a wedding. I still have my cheat days, and fun foods, and pizza, and whatever. But 90%-plus of the time, I’m strict on my diet. And then 10% of the time, I have fun foods. And that’s what allows me to make this a lifestyle that’s not revolving around restriction. And that’s been a key for me because I used to do, like, strict keto and then I’d, you know, crash and go off and, you know, have all these carbs. And then three weeks later, I’m like, “What happened?” So, this works for me, is doing cyclical and targeted ketogenic dieting. Katie: Yeah, and I love to focus on metabolic flexibility as well. And in the same place of I realized what is the long-term goal, for me, the long-term goal was not that I would be eating an extremely regimented diet for my whole entire life. I’m willing to do that, like you, most of the time because I feel so good but there are gonna be times when I don’t. So how do I become the most metabolically flexible so that when I do decide that I’m gonna eat, you know, avocado oil potato chips, or whatever it is, my body can handle it without me feeling horrible the next day? You also mentioned sirtuin activators. So for anybody who’s not familiar, kind of explain to us what sirtuins are and why this is an important key. Shawn: The sirtuin genes are a set of genes. I believe there’s eight of them. And they’re kind of like sirtuins circuit survival genes. So, like, the more you do things that promote resilience, the more these genes are activated. So it’s like hormetic stressors, which just means challenging the body. So think of things like fasting, working out, you know, doing things like keto, doing hot and cold therapies, challenging yourself with body temperature, doing breathwork, things like this, like, challenge the body and create greater resilience. You become harder to kill. And these sirtuin genes become activated. And the different number genes like SIRT1, SIRT2, SIRT3 are in, like, different tissues, affect different parts of the body. But essentially, the idea collectively, is they promote resilience and therefore, extend life and have, like, less methylation of the DNA and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, the sirtuin genes are a huge focus in terms of anti-aging and quality of life as well. Again, the more resilient you are, the more you can bounce back and take on something like COVID or even all the stresses around COVID, the fear, and all those things. So, that would be what they are and why they’re so important. Katie: Awesome. Well. Okay, so let’s keep moving. I know there’s so many points, and at the end of the day, people just need to also get your book because you’ve got so much more than we can cover in this episode. And I know we’ve already talked about you’re just gonna have to become a regular guest too because you’re such a wealth of knowledge. But let’s get on to the next one. What do we need to know? Shawn: Exercise. So, obviously, you know exercise is good. But again, you know, you should look at overtraining. You should look at things like you said HRV. I do love Heads Up Health by David. I’m a big fan of that too. I use a Biostrap and a Garmin f?nix but I know people love the Oura Ring too. But exercise, there are some hacks. So, again, going back to that hormetic stressor idea, the idea of low-intensity steady-state training like typical cardio is not that effective. If you enjoy running or you enjoy, kind of, circuit training at the gym, and it’s kind of a stress release, then that’s good. Like, that’s good for you. But just know that you will not receive maximal adaptation in terms of muscle mass, fat loss, improving in VO2 max, and in resilience. That’s not going to happen with typical steady-state exercise. High-intensity interval training is like burst training, like walk to sprint or jog to sprint, you know. And it can be like how you train with weights as well. You know, CrossFit, for example, is sort of like that. It’s like an endurance version of HIIT. It’s called metabolic conditioning. So, that’s an ideal way to train. Like, you can literally do more in five minutes of HIIT training than you can do in an hour of typical steady-state training. And even if you might say that it’s, you know, conditions-specific, like where a runner should just practice running, that’s not even the case there. Like, they’ve shown that a runner doing sprints has greater increases in terms of their endurance and their performance than just a runner who continuously runs. So, that’s one thing. The next thing I would get into is a couple of other unique hacks. There’s something called blood flow restriction, where you put on cuffs and you just cut off some venous flow of blood, the superficial level of blood and not arterial, which is deeper. And it’s basically like putting a cuff on it, like a 7 or 8 out of 10. It just makes you feel like if you’ve ever done like a drop set or a superset where, like, towards the end, you just feel so swole and, like, you can’t do another rep and you feel, like, the burn and your arms are super pumped, and you can start that way. And what helps is you can de-load. So you can get the benefits. There’s something called cell swelling as a mechanism to promote hypertrophy in muscle growth. And you can de-load in the process. So if you’re overtrained, and you’ve been doing too much weights and it’s tough on your joints, you can go to like 40% of your one-rep max instead of 70% or 80% and still get growth and benefits. So it’s a really cool technique. And the last one I throw out is called intra-set stretching. And that’s like keeping time under tension so your muscle is always under tension even between sets. So, think of if you were doing bicep curls…And by the way, don’t ever rest at the top in a bicep curl. Keep that time under tension. Don’t swing through it. You know, pause at the bottom, pause at near the top, and don’t go all the way up so it rests. But in between sets, flex out your triceps as hard as you possibly can. And this stretches the bicep so it’s still under tension, then you go back into your set. And you’ll see, like, just how difficult this is and how amazing it is, again, for promoting hypertrophy. So those are some unique hacks that I get into in the book along with several others. Katie: I love all of those. And, like, these are such high-level tips too. I’ve had the pleasure of getting to just, kind of, tag along on an Olympic training protocol because we live near an Olympic facility here. And these elite athletes who are training for the Olympics this year or, like, this upcoming year are doing these strategies and not much more. They’re not doing any long cardio. They’re not doing super, super heavy. They’re very very strategic and dialed in. And while it may take them an hour to work out in a day, the actual effort time of that is much lower because they understand the need for rest and the need for intensity, and they have all these factors dialed in. I’ve been amazed at how quickly the body responds when you do this, when you give it high intensity and then weights but in a very specific way. It’s been absolutely astounding how much change I’ve seen in my body from this strategy. So, just echo everything that you said, especially the sprinting. That was not a thing I ever really did before now. And we did only like six sprints in the sand a few times a week during a couple of parts of these workouts. And it was really ridiculous how much faster I got just from that. It’s incredible the body how fast it picks up, like, oh, we’re supposed to run now? We’re supposed to be fast? Got it. And it just adapts. It’s been absolutely incredible to watch. When it comes to exercise, another thing I’d love to touch on, and I know that you, I believe, are a fan as well, is sauna as an exercise mimetic. So you’re not gonna get exactly all of the same benefits as exercise but from what I understand, you get many of the at least cardiovascular benefits of exercise. So if you don’t wanna do that long-term cardio, sauna is a great parasympathetic resting way to get some of those benefits, but also sauna use strategically can make the benefits of exercise more pronounced. Is that right? Like, kind of walk us through how sauna can be used as part of this? Shawn: Yes, it’s synergistic. Not only in the heat aspect, but using red light therapy. So the combination of, like, near and far infrared and the sauna, you don’t need to go quite as hot when you use the red light. So something like a sunlight and sauna, or you could use a regular sauna and use something like a Joovv light as well. It depends what you have access to. That’s going to promote blood flow, promote sweating, which is, you know, again, like you’re saying, like some things that you get during exercise. And it’s going to promote recovery. And even better is something called contrasting, which I get into the book is when you create that greater delta in temperature. So, when you go from hot to cold. So doing a cold plunge, or cryotherapy, or something like that, and doing sauna, or there’s a technique that Ray Cronise has, a famed astronaut and researcher, where he does a contrasting shower, and he goes back and forth about 10 times with hot to cold, hot to cold, hot to cold. And that delta, again, creates even greater resilience. So, you know, we’re so used to being thermoregulated at 69 to 72 degrees all day long, whether we’re in our house, in our car, in our office, wherever we are, we’re thermoregulated. And so, we’re not getting the benefits of resilience like that. We’re not getting the benefits of hot and cold. And very rarely would someone do both. So, that’s even more powerful. Again, you wanna make sure you’re in a place where HRV-wise, immunity-wise, you can handle that because this is a stress to your system. So you have something called allostatic load, where you can only handle so much stress. You can create a bigger bucket, a stress bucket through resilience, but you need to make sure your bucket’s not already overflowing or else some of this training, the high-intensity interval training, the hot and cold therapy, the, you know, working out with weights, you know, all these things, like they can be great for resilience, but you don’t wanna put your body in a state of overtraining if it’s already overstressed. So that’s why it’s important to, you know, if you’re in the sauna, maybe add some meditation or, you know, things like that. That would be helpful. But yes, I’m a huge fan of hot and cold therapy. You can see things like the sauna raises, IGF-1 levels, GH levels, something called heat shock proteins. And then cold therapy as well, like, you know, dramatically improve something called brown adipose tissue and your metabolic rate. So, like, getting this exposure is going to make you more fit. Katie: Yeah, and I personally find sauna just a lot of fun and more relaxing than exercise. I love having that in my toolkit. What about with cold…? This is the thing I’ve wondered personally right now. So when you do high-intensity workouts or strength training workouts, part of that is you’re, like, using the muscle and you want that inflammation response a little bit because that’s how you build muscle. And the cold from what I’ve read can blunt that, as can taking too many antioxidants within a certain window after exercise. Are there any good guidelines for that? I mean, this is a pretty fringe specific question, but basically, I’m asking, how soon after workout can I get cold? Shawn: Yeah. Now, people ask this all the time of, like, if I take antioxidants around the workout, does that have negative effects? If I take an anti-inflammatory around the workout, does that have negative effects, or taking a cold shower after my workout? I used to worry about that. That’s something that I no longer worry about. I listen to my body. If I’ve had a workout where I feel like I’ve really pushed it, then I feel like the degree of inflammation is not just localized, it’s systemic, and it sometimes is too much, like I’m saying, like allostatic load-wise, it’s too much. If I’m already, like, getting up early, I didn’t get much sleep, I go to the gym, I train hard, you know, to me, like a cold shower is something that I’m receiving benefits from. Same with the antioxidants. Same with anti-inflammatories. Like, I would listen to your body. And sure, you should listen to your body in how you train, but listen to your body in what it needs. So, it’s not that there’s a wrong time or a hard and fast rule. It’s something to be aware of. And I would say, in general, it’s probably more ideal to do the cold plunge, not around the workout, to do the antioxidants or anti-inflammatories not around the workout. But if you just feel malaise after your workout, if you feel inflamed after your workout, take a cold shower. It’s way better than taking anti-inflammatories or taking caffeine or struggling through your day. Like, this is such a healthy intervention that it’s just the benefits outweigh anything else. So, to me, that’s what I would do. But if you’re finished with your workout and you feel great, then yeah, hold off and maybe have that cold plunge later. Katie: Awesome. Okay. So moving on to the next one so we don’t run out of time. What are the high-level points here for R? Shawn: Okay. So, routines. One, like we said, most successful people have dialed morning routines. And that’s where everything starts with your day. I think it’s really important to wake up not stressed out. You can get lights that come on in the room slowly. You can get chimes that come on slowly in repeat, instead of, like, turn on the bright light and meh-meh-meh-meh. You know, that kind of thing is very stressful to the system. You don’t want a cortisol blast. You don’t wanna, like, go full-on sympathetic nervous system to start your day. And another thing I do is I sit in my bed for a minute, and I do some breathwork for a couple of minutes. And move your body a little bit while you’re still in bed. You know, do some kind of range of motion stuff and do your breathwork, and then do some affirmations. You know, say some of the things that you’re going to accomplish today. Like, put it out there, like speak your truth. You know, say like, “I wanna have a successful day today. I will be energized and successful.” You know, whatever it is, like, just put it out there. And then I like to do some journaling, like a five-minute journal, where I have some gratitude, and then go through, again, some of the things I wanna accomplish that day in a more specific way. I usually take a walk with my dog, listen to a podcast on the way to the gym, get a workout in at the gym, take my shower. I usually fast in the morning, don’t eat until lunch. And then when I do start work, it’s really important that instead of going down that rabbit hole of email, and certainly don’t do this with your phone first thing like when you wake up, but don’t do this even when you first get to work is just start hitting all the emails. Get into one big task for the first two hours of your day. Knock that out and then you are successful. You feel accomplished and then jump into your email because then you’re in a very different place mentally. No matter what happens, no matter what rabbit holes come up, you have accomplished something successful and you’ve already had your workout, you’ve already had your breathwork, you’ve already done your gratitude journal, and you’ve knocked out this big thing at work. Then get into your emails. You can just chase emails all day long and never really accomplish much. So it’s something to be mindful of. And also, stacking up phone calls with each other so that we’re not in that distracted state. We are not good multitaskers. Some people say, like, women are good multitaskers or I’m a good…Like, none of that’s true. It’s called task switching. And none of us are efficient at it. And it really hurts. It can take five to seven minutes to switch back. So we wanna get in a state where we’re focused on a task without distraction. And that’s where you can do deep work. And for some people, that creative work, it’s really important to do in the morning too. There is research that says, like, that 10:00 a.m. is kind of like the optimal time for that creative work. So, again, I would put that kind of stuff at the beginning of the day, and then get into your emails, then go have lunch, and then make the afternoon more about calls and connecting with people. So those are some things to do. And then in the evening, you know, like, circadian rhythm is really important. And that’s that sleep-wake cycle. And a lot of us are bucking that at night with all this blue light that we’re getting and eating too late. And it’s really important. Dr. Satchin Panda’s data has looked at circadian rhythm and eating. We should be eating during the daylight window. It’s very unnatural to be eating late at night or when it’s dark. And so that’s important to look at and avoid your blue light exposure from screens and devices, that you’re getting too much blue light and you’re not able to release melatonin, and shut everything down, and relax, and get quality sleep. So, that’s important to start your morning feeling refreshed, getting a great night’s sleep. And that’s important to reduce that blue light exposure and then also to create a sleep fortress. And that means, like, your bedroom is a place that revolves around sleep. If you need to use essential oils, definitely don’t watch TV in the bedroom, don’t do work in the bedroom. The bedroom is for intimacy and for sleep, and that’s it. So, that’s some important things with routines to create to set yourself up for success. Katie: Amazing. I was sitting here taking notes for the show notes with everything you were saying. This podcast is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, my go-to source for functional mushrooms like Lion’s Mane, chaga, cordyceps and more. Recently, I’ve really been enjoying their protein powder… it’s new and it’s delicious. it has 18g of pure plant proteins, 7 functional mushrooms and adaptogens, the realest organic vanilla, and not a single grain, gum, or gram of stevia. I love adding the vanilla to a smoothie with some berries for an easy meal (and my kids love it too). The Peanut Butter flavor blended with some cacao and macadamia milk makes a great protein-packed afternoon pick me up. If you haven’t tried four sigmatic, I also love their lion’s mane coffee in the morning and their reishi packets at night! Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This podcast is sponsored by Paleovalley. They make amazing grass fed beef sticks are the only beef sticks in the USA made from 100% grass fed/grass finished beef and organic spices that are naturally fermented. They use old world methods of fermenting their sticks so they are shelf stable without the use of chemicals or questionable ingredients. Virtually all other similar snack stick products use GMO corn-based citric acid encapsulated in hydrogenated oils to process their products. Thanks to this fermentation process, they don’t have any of that junk and each stick contains gut-friendly probiotics! My kids love them and I can never keep them in the house, so now we are just on a regular auto order. Go to paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. I think this next one, G, is the one I’m most excited about because this was one of the things you and I first talked about when we met was the idea of just how important mindset is, in general. I don’t even think we fully understand yet just how important it is. But we know the data on a growth mindset and how important that is for success in every area of life, including health. So, walk us through some of the high-level points of this one. Shawn: You know, like, I just did a plant medicine experience this past weekend. And one of the epiphanies that came to me was, “I am,” and whatever follows that is empowering. And you’re putting out into the world of what you are. At that moment, that is reality. Like, whatever you wanna be, you just say, “I am,” and it changes your mindset, and it changes your approach, and it changes your belief structure, and it changes how people view you. But growth is a mindset. And I love the idea of…we talked before about resilience and hormesis. And growth mindset is the same idea on a mental level. So stoicism is a growth mindset. The obstacle is the way. And that’s how we become stronger, where we don’t dread adversity. We don’t look for an adversity-free life. I mean, that’s a path to fragility. And we want often, like, a way around the obstacle. You know, what’s the hack? What’s the cheat? But really, the obstacle is the way where we relish that difficulty, that journey, like when we watch these sports documentaries or war…you know, whatever it is, these hero stories, it’s because they’ve dealt with adversity and they’ve overcome it. And we cherish that as a people. We admire that. And so that’s an important mind state to be in is how can I benefit from adversity? How can I grow stronger from this? What new things will I learn about myself? I’m learning about who I am on a deeper level. And because of adversity, like I had so many health issues, I was bullied, and abused, and all these autoimmune conditions and surgeries I’ve had, and deep self-loathing, depression, anorexia, obesity, I mean, suicidal thoughts. I’ve been through all this stuff. But on the other side of it, I wouldn’t be talking to you, Katie, right now. I wouldn’t have impacted a million people. I wouldn’t be a supplement expert. I wouldn’t be a biochemist. I wouldn’t be a dietician. I wouldn’t be standing on stage, like, desperately wanting to connect with people with empathy. I mean, all of that came through adversity. And so, I’ve learned to cherish adversity. Does it get hard sometimes? Do you wanna, like, break down and scream? Sure. That’s when that bucket is overflowing, right? But most of the time, we can grow our bucket, whether it’s with mindset or like that resilience, the allostatic load. That’s the key is your approach to it, your filter, like, how you view it. You know, the glass half empty or half full. I mean, that’s so key is your perspective and what you’re bringing to it. So many people saw this year as so frustrating and a terrible year. I saw this as an incredible year for so many opportunities business-wise. And two, for me to go inwards. And that’s when I started doing plant medicine journeys, working with therapists, and getting mentors, and building my life team, and really developing my passion, and honing in my fire. And that’s what I’ve got from this year. So that’s what growth can bring you. And I really hope that your listeners can seek that out and benefit from that as just shifting that mindset to see something as this is an opportunity for me to grow. Katie: Yeah, I think…I love that, “The Obstacle is the Way”. I’m a big fan of stoicism as well. And I think this year, you’re right, has been a great teacher in that. And if we view it as a lesson instead of a failure, as we talked about in the beginning, there’s so much to learn. And we can think of this year as an incredible teacher for all of us. And I think this year has also really highlighted another thing that’s so important for health and for mental health, and that many people are really struggling with feeling not enough right now, and that is the idea of community and connection and human relationships. And I love that this is the ending piece of your book because I think it’s the one, when I look at Blue Zones, that I notice the most is, like, yes, they eat healthy and yes, they walk and they drink red wine, but they have really strong relationships, and friendships, and community. And maybe that’s the piece we should be looking the most at. So, let’s talk about community. I know we share a lot of thoughts on this. And I think it is arguably maybe the most important piece and one that, in today’s world, can be hard to really get dialed in. Shawn: So true. So true. I love that. Yes, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Sardinia, one of the key blue zones in Italy. And that was what was impressed upon me. As a nutritionist, like, as a dietician, like, I did the same thing, like, that you’re talking about. I was looking at, oh, they eat the Mediterranean diet, like, how much red wine? What type of red wine. But when I went there, it was three-plus-hour meals. You know, they skipped breakfast, had like some espresso, they have a light lunch. And then they have this three-hour meal where, you know, they prepare the food. And again, it’s that whole food. And they commune for hours, and they have therapy in that sense, and they connect, and they care about each other. They laugh and they cry, and they share the food. And it’s a parasympathetic experience. And when we have food, we’re often triggered in a psychosomatic way for it to be a sympathetic experience, where we’re, you know, on the highway and weaving in and out of lanes and, you know, the radio is up, and we’re stuffing food in our face. And, you know, we gotta eat it as quick as possible or we do it while we’re watching a crazy show on TV that’s about explosions and killing. And then when you eat food, it actually triggers inflammation. It’s not even just the quality of food. It’s what we’ve entrained our body for. When they have food, they’re fully relaxing because they’re about to sit down for three hours and talk to friends and family, and really, you know, enjoy and slow down. And so that is a huge difference. And something I’m looking to build into my life is really building out more community. And then speaking to what we were just talking about, like, the life team concept is something that I’m developing more and working with some friends on, and looking to hone in too is people that, like they say, you’re a product of the five people closest to you. You know, who are those people that are around you? Are you consciously putting quality people around you that you admire and want to emulate and certainly provide value back to? It’s not a one-way street. But you need people around you that are helping you to grow, that are challenging you in the right way, kind of like, again, hormesis and stoicism and resilience. It’s that right amount of challenge and support. It’s what your body, and brain, and soul needs is some of that criticism, but a lot of support too. And so, it’s holding you accountable. And, you know, just like when I do these plant medicine journeys, you get all these epiphanies but if you don’t do the integration for the next three months or whatever it is, then it’s worthless, then you just had an experience, and then you just go back into regular life, and do the things that you’ve always done. So you need to not only integration on your end to journal it, to think on it, to work on it, but have people hold you accountable to it and support you through that change, through your evolution. And those people need to be people that want to see you change, and grow, and become better. And certainly not people that want you to stay the same or be less than. Those people need you to be on fire, to be passionate, to be your best self. And so those are the key people to put around you. And certainly, you need to see that in them. You’re like, “Wow, these are people that are their best selves.” They don’t need to be millionaires. They don’t need to be concert pianists. They just need to be fully passionate and present. Katie: Yeah. And I think our modern world is not naturally geared to facilitate those kind of relationships. I think we do have to be intentional about them in today’s world. I also think that making that a priority, like you said, those five people that you are putting the most time into relationship with, can have the biggest impact on your life. Even, there’s some really fascinating data about when not just one of those five people in your life has a dramatic change, it’s more likely that you will have a similar dramatic change. For instance, if one of those five people gains a dramatic amount of weight, you’re more likely to gain weight. People kind of understand that connection. The crazy part is when one of the five people that those five people spend the most time with gains weight, you’re actually at an increased risk for gaining weight, even if you don’t know that extra person. It’s really kind of amazing how connected and how community really works like that. And I’ve had to be very intentional about building that community in my own life. I think many of us have, especially this year. I’m a big fan in my life of having really, like, regular relationships like that. I also have what I call my personal board of directors. And we have those regular meetings, and I serve that for other people as well, where the goal is to help each other improve, and also to have a safe place to give each other critical feedback that can be helpful as well, constructively critical feedback. I think in a lot of relationships, people maybe don’t feel like they have the freedom to say those things sometimes. And so having an area where it’s expressly said, you know, “Please call me out if you see something I could improve on,” or to have those relationships, it’s been really, really impactful for me. So definitely echo what you said. I know, at the beginning, you also mentioned you have supplement suggestions throughout the book. And certainly, this is an area where personalization is most important. But I’d love to hear any supplements that you are experimenting with or loving, especially right now. Shawn: Yeah, I think, like, if I was to give my top list, you know, there’s some basics that I think people should be taking like vitamin D3. Certainly, we’ve seen even more data now around how important it is to our health and our immunity with COVID. It’s a hormone. It’s not just a vitamin. It’s so unique, and it impacts so many parts of the body. And it’s really like the anti-COVID if you look at, like, this ACE2 pathway for COVID and how vitamin D works. Along the same lines, I would say right now high-level vitamin C, either through IV or liposomal, you really can’t go that high dose with vitamin C if you’re just taking ascorbic acid because it will give you GI distress. So look at, like, a liposomal form or doing some IV vitamin C. I really like polyphenols. So getting back to if you do look at data of these blue zones, one thing that is present is high doses of polyphenols in the diets. And for example, in some of the most historic foods, things like…and their polyphenols, like onions are high in quercetin, red wine, resveratrol, EGCG in green tea, pterostilbene in blueberries. You know, these foods have these polyphenols, which again, are sirtuin activators. They promote a key aspect of energy in the mitochondria. And NAD is that compound that’s really key to energy in the mitochondria. So finding ways to boost NAD levels, which these polyphenols do…And some of the polyphenols actually not only boost NAD but they lower NAD ACE, the enzyme that breaks NAD down. It’s also called CD38. So, that’s a key. And as we age like at 50, we are making dramatically less NAD, and we’re breaking it down at a much more rapid rate. So, this is a key to energies is having enough of these polyphenols. Beyond that, I like a great multivitamin that has active B vitamins in it, the coenzymated B vitamins, things like methylcobalamin, 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, P5P, things like that. And it also has organic mineral salts. So things like magnesium citrate or the amino acid kilates, like magnesium glycinate, and not like the inferior forms like oxide or carbonate. Fish oil, I’m a big fan of. Probiotics. I think now we’re looking at having prebiotics, which promote healthy bacteria, probiotics, which are the healthy bacteria. I like ones that are in spore form or microencapsulated so they’re more stable. And then something now that’s called a postbiotic, which is butyrate. And that’s what these probiotics make. And so together, if you take them collectively, it’s now called a symbiotic. So getting all those to promote gut health is wonderful. Alpha-GPC is the best form of choline and really important for brain health along the lines of acetylcholine and brain cell health, etc. I think those are some of the keys right there. Taking some things for mitochondrial health, like CoQ10, PQQ, NMN, those are all ingredients that I’m a big fan of too, and I get into in the book, but those are gonna be some of the best ones I would say right there. Katie: I love it. Again, taking notes. I’ve experimented with some of those, even Alpha-GPC is one of my recent ones. And those are some that from adding one thing at a time and watching the response, I’ve noticed a big difference. For me, genetically, any of the choline and choline factors were important because I genetically need more and I don’t tolerate eggs. So, when I started supplementing with that, I felt incredible. And then Alpha-GPC is another one I’ve really enjoyed lately, just for the mental. I feel so clear and so focused. So, I’ll make sure…I’ve written all those suggestions down. And I’ll put links in the show notes, as well as, of course, a link to your book so people can keep learning. Another topic, we don’t have time to really jump into all the way but I want to at least touch on is the topic of peptides because I think we’re gonna see more and more about these in the health world. So, just give us a high-level overview of what peptides are and some of the ways we can use them. Shawn: So, peptides are, essentially, amino acids when stacked together. You can have…If you have two amino acids, they’re a dipeptide, three, tripeptide, then you can get into oligopeptides, which just means short chains, and then longer chains are called polypeptides. So it’s, essentially, amino acids. And this class of peptides, in terms of chemicals or medicines, if you will, are usually 50 or less amino acids. And so things like growth hormone or insulin are actually peptides. And they’re short-acting and unique. They’re not like hormones, where they sit around and they can have more of a harsh effect, they can have more signaling effect like where there’s a hormonal cascade if you will, that’s called the hormonal milieu. Like, where one hormone affects another hormone, affects another hormone. What’s cool about peptides is they tend to be very clean. And so, there’s just a turn on/turn off kind of thing, which makes them a lot more reasonable to use. And it’s a lot better than the way a lot of drugs work like which is typically blocking an enzyme that creates a lot of side effects. So you see all these commercials of the 600 side effects. It’s just not an ideal way to get a result from the body. So these peptides are getting very popular. The problem is they can’t be patented. And for that reason, they’re just considered research chemicals, not approved for actual use on humans because then that’s considered a drug. So, they’re just getting sold on the internet. So you have to be careful of where you get them from. I work with a medical doctor that’s progressive enough to start using some of these incredible compounds, but you do wanna make sure you’re getting them from a clean place. The best one that I’ve seen that he uses and he’s tested is Peptide Sciences. So that’s the best place to get it. Now a lot of these peptides, your body, if you were to take them orally, would break them down into those amino acid components, and they wouldn’t have the signaling effect, this on-off effect that they would. So you need to inject most of them. So that’s another factor here. So, you might need to get what’s called bacteria static water, hydrate the ampule, and then you pull it in and inject it. Now you don’t have to inject these necessarily intravenously. It’s, you know, a little insulin needle. And just like underneath the skin, subcutaneous. So, it doesn’t hurt. It’s not hard to do. But yes, these compounds, I mean, just to name a few like BPC-157, TB-500 are powerful for anti-inflammation and healing. Thymosin alpha, like, boosts the immune system and might help someone overcome things like Epstein-Barr, Lyme’s, you know, a host of autoimmune issues. There’s things that promote…you can actually take GHRH, which helps release more growth hormone and release it in its normal pulsatile way, which is about six to seven times a day, instead of just taking growth hormone itself, which is not as good where you’re just taking a bolus of it, and it’s kind of going way high and then way low. So, there’s compounds like Dihexa and Cerebrolysin, which help promote brain health and help neuroplasticity, essentially making the brain younger. There’s some anti-aging compounds like Epitalon that are powerful as well. There’s a number of them that we’re discovering in the body, that, again, just because the way that they’re made, they really can’t be patented. So, you know, the drug companies really aren’t working on them. But there’s some of the most profound compounds for eliciting an effect in healing us. So it’s a fascinating area of medicine right now that is definitely worth looking into, and I would look for a doctor that does do work like that. And again, I work with Dr. Daniel Stickler and Mickra Hamilton of Apeiron in Austin. I know that’s one. There are some others throughout the country. So that’s something to look at. Katie: Awesome. Yeah, like I said, this is an area I’m just starting to experiment, so we can circle back in another episode about that soon. And I always ask at the end, you’ve been on recently, so I asked about books that really dramatically impacted your life. This time, I would love to just hear any book recommendations you have across the board. Obviously, I recommend yours, and that’s been a focus of today. But any other fun books you’ve read recently? Shawn: Well, the books that I would really, really recommend is going to be…”The Four Agreements” was probably the most impactful book for me, especially learning to…don’t take anything personally. That was profound for me that people are just projecting out on you, and you project out on other people. You put your judgment and your lens out on other people. And especially with plant medicine, I’ve learned to know that I have my lens and I am unique, and I don’t need to be projecting out on other people. I don’t need to be judging other people. And then when people say those things to me that it’s coming through their lens. And so that’s been important. “The Obstacle Is The Way” was incredibly important to me for shifting my mindset. I do like biohacking, so I love Ben Greenfield’s book, “Boundless.” It’s a gigantic book that’s wonderful. Those are some of the ones, like, off the top of my head. I’m trying to think of what else. “Deep Work” by Cal Newport is something that I was, kind of, touching on before, and “Tools of Titans” is something that I mentioned before. It’s great to read these short, kind of, summaries of all the people that Tim Ferriss had on and, kind of, get a view of excellence and to see the thread that runs through them, as well as what’s unique to each of them and what you wanna adopt from your perspective. So, those are some great books that I’ve read. Katie: Awesome. I’m putting links to all of those in the show notes as well. But Shawn, with the promise of let’s do this again another time soon, thank you for your time today. It’s always so much fun to learn from you and chat with you. Shawn: Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate being on. And yes, I’m excited about my book. And it’s really like about 20 years in t

I’m answering your questions today, from supplements to fasting to homeschooling to EMFs… and beyond! These solo episodes are always fun for me because I get to hear from you guys and hopefully, help by answering some questions that are really on your mind. If you have questions you would like included on future episodes like this, just sign up for my newsletter at wellnessmama.com  and reply to me to be included! You can also ping me on Instagram. Episode Highlights: Q&A With Katie If it’s healthy to cycle supplements, and an easy way to remember when to take what Why I don’t eat 3 meals every day (and what I do instead) How my food sensitivities led to a nutrient deficiency, and how to avoid this happening to you A novel way to approach to beat the caffeine addiction (and enjoy your coffee more) Whether I worry about EMFs in our home, and how my approach has changed over time An easy way to cut EMF exposure (and one part of the house to focus on) Ways to increase protein intake even if you have food sensitivities What is circadian fasting My experience with tracking my fasting glucose levels Things I have personally tried to tone and tighten skin after weight loss Why I’m so interested in first principles and how it factors into how we homeschool More about my Unstitute program, available soon Why so much health information seems to conflict, and how to get to the bottom of it Whether my views on sugar have changed at all Changes I’m seeing from daily red light therapy Common problems with keto and how I approach it Natural hacks to smooth cellulite Benefits of going barefoot as much as possible And more! Resources We Mention Nutrition Genome genetic testing Dr. Petra Podcast 203: Hidden EMF Dangers and How to Mitigate Them With Geobiologist Brian Hoyer The $15 Fix to Reduce WiFi Exposure by Half 371: How Eating More Protein Will Transform Your Metabolism w/ Dr. Gabrielle Lyon PaleoValley Beef Sticks Good Culture Cottage Cheese Ground Beef Jerky Recipe Just Thrive Probiotics Levels Glucose Monitor Post: Ice Bath Benefits: How Cold Therapy Improves the Body and the Brain Post: The Benefits of Red Light Therapy (Photobiomodulation) Podcast 373: Why Sunlight Is As Important As Nutrition and Exercise for Health & Lifespan With Ari Whitten Did you enjoy this podcast? What would you like me to answer in the next solo episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Flying Embers, a better-for-you alcohol brand that brews Hard Kombucha with probiotic-powered Hard Seltzer. All of their products are zero sugar, zero carbs, USDA certified organic, and brewed with live probiotics and adaptogens. They’re also all keto, gluten-free, vegan, and low in calories, so they’re a great option for a functional low-calorie drink that is delicious. I love their flavors. They have some really unique ones, like Grapefruit Thyme and Guava Jalapeno, and I’m a big fan of their Clementine Hibiscus. All of their products are artfully crafted with a dry fermentation process, which gives the Hard Kombucha a perfectly balanced natural sweetness that tastes amazing despite having zero sugar and carbs. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal just for you. Receive 15% off your whole order. To claim this deal, go to flyingembers.com/wellnessmama and use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout and the discount is only available on their website. And they’re also available nationwide at grocery stores, anywhere you find beer and hard seltzers, but check out where to find them and get the discount, flyingembers.com/wellnessmama. This podcast is sponsored by Blublox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That is my new line of personal care products like hair care, toothpaste, and now hand sanitizer as well. This is a solo episode where I will be answering some of the questions that you guys have sent me via email and via social media. If you have questions you would like included on future episodes like this, please sign up for my newsletter at wellnessmama.com so that every time I ask that question, you can weigh in. And also, you can ping me on Instagram, I’m WellnessMama on there as well, and send me any questions you have for future episodes. These always fun for me because I get to hear from you guys and get to, hopefully, answer some questions that are pressing for you guys and just talk about some topics that I may not talk about otherwise. So today, I’m gonna go through as many as I can in about 45 minutes. And like I said, ping me with any future questions you have. First question is from Desiree. She asked, “How do you cycle supplements and why should you cycle supplements?” And this is a great question. First and foremost, I wanna say this does not apply to medications that are prescribed by your doctor. You should definitely talk to a doctor before cycling or changing any medications. I’m only talking about supplements and I’m only sharing here what I personally do. I originally got this advice from a doctor named Petra, Dr. Petra in Switzerland. And I have followed this advice ever since and it has served me really well. Her advice was, never do anything every single day. And I think this is really sage advice. My general rule, and the way that I work this in, is that I simply stopped taking things on the weekends. It’s an easy way to remember it. It’s usually busier at our house on the weekends anyway. And so, short of special circumstances like if I’m sick, and I’m trying to recover, and I’m taking immune-boosting supplements or I am replenishing a specific deficiency that I’ve tested for a short time, I tend to not take any supplements on the weekend. Like I said, always exceptions but in general. I also tend to not eat any food every single day. I very much believe food is medicine as well. And so I don’t think it’s helpful or beneficial to consume the same food every single day. There’s some really interesting research on this and how if we over-consume certain foods, we’re actually more likely to develop an intolerance or an allergy to those specific foods. So, I try not to, again, follow the same diet every day, to mix up my diet from day-to-day but certainly not to take supplements on the weekend. And the idea here is that you don’t want your body to get used to any constant external inputs and to down-regulate natural production of any substance. And that applies to things we get from food as well. This is one of the reasons I also occasionally will fast for short amounts of time, just to get used to not having those inputs as well. But with targeted supplementation, I feel like this is especially important or at least it has been for me. And I find that I also get more benefit from supplements when I do this. As a side note, I also find this really helpful with caffeine. Although I find that most people don’t love to do this, to either go off caffeine on the weekends, which is tougher, especially if you still have a lot going on on the weekends, and much less fun. Or what I prefer to do, which is to cycle caffeine throughout the month. So for one week of a month, one of every four to five weeks, I will not drink caffeine or just drink decaf coffee in small amounts. And what I found is this makes caffeine so much more effective the rest of the time when I am drinking it, which many of us are drinking caffeine for the little bit of energy or focus boost. And I find it’s much more effective when I do that. So, just a simple tip that has been really helpful for me and one I would encourage you to experiment with in your own life. You’ll find me saying this over and over, but I do think there’s a tremendous amount of variability and personalization when it comes to any aspect of health. So certainly always experiment and find what works best for you. Don’t ever take anyone’s advice, including mine, completely at face value. Use everything as a starting point to figure out what’s gonna work best for you. I’m also very careful with supplementation to try to take only targeted, careful supplements to accomplish a specific purpose. And personally, what I’ve done is to run…All the supplements I take are somewhat based on either, like I said, deficiencies from testing or on my genes. A concrete example I can give here is that when I ran my genes through Nutrition Genome…I have a discount with them and I will make sure that’s linked in the show notes. They are an affiliate partner. I’ll link to it so that you guys can find that. Look out for that link. But I ran my genes through there. They give a lot of really helpful data about what things your body might prefer just based on your genetics. And certainly, there are many considerations beyond that including if you have intolerances based on your current immune status or your current gut health, it’s not the only thing you should look at. But I found it a very helpful starting point. So, the specific example I will give here is that I found based on my genes that I had a higher than average need for certain types of choline. But I, ironically, also am intolerant to chicken eggs, which for many people are the main dietary source of choline. But having avoided eggs for almost a decade, I was consuming very low amounts of dietary choline and I had this drastically increased need for choline. When I started supplementing, I noticed a really drastic difference relatively quickly. And so that’s one of the ways I find that genes can be really helpful in pinpointing maybe some of the things that could be nutritional holes for us and then using those things in a targeted way to get a very specific benefit. Because as we all might know, just from looking at the marketing, there are literally thousands and thousands of supplements. And they all have potential benefits, depending on what you specifically need. But if you just go based on the benefits of supplements, you can end up with a huge list that may or may not necessarily benefit you personally. So, I’m a big fan, like I said, of finding a good starting point based on genetics and then using a lot of tracking and personal experimentation to really dial that in. And even at that point, still skipping them on the weekends. Heather asked, “What do you personally do to address all the forms of EMFs within your home and exposures for your kids?” This is another great question, I think one that will become increasingly relevant. As it appears, I would think that EMFs are not going to be going down anytime soon and that this is something we’re gonna be more and more potentially exposed to in our environments on a daily basis. I have two schools of thought here. The first is that we should minimize when possible and within reason and within our sanity. But also realize that EMFs are and likely will remain a relatively big part of our lives. So it’s important to also cultivate resilience and ability to handle when exposed. And I’ll admit, I haven’t always felt this way. I in many times have been much more careful about avoiding all types of EMFs, especially when I was in an active healing phase. And I think there are certainly times and places for that. But I had several experiences with people in the health world that I very much trust, over a span of a few weeks, who all had devices in their home that put off different types of EMFs. And it kind of surprised me to see them there. And they all had the same idea that since we cannot totally avoid EMFs, that it’s perhaps better to find a more conscious and targeted way to use them, but also not completely avoid them in our home environment so that we’re actually less resilient when we are exposed. So, I think there is a balance there. I don’t think it’s possible in today’s increasingly technological world to completely avoid EMFs. And I think we could all probably encounter a whole lot of stress if we were trying to completely avoid them. But I do think there are levels of ways that we can mitigate or avoid extra exposure, and a lot of them are pretty easy. I have several posts about this that I can link to, to make sure you guys can find them. We did have an EMF expert come to our house, who tested all of our different bedrooms especially, but just the whole house and figured out where our highest areas of EMFs were, where they were coming from. That was really helpful just to have a tangible idea of what we were working with to begin with. And I did a podcast with Brian Hoyer who did the analysis in our house. After that podcast, we painted a couple of rooms with a specialized paint to minimize exposure to EMFs from sources that I think were above levels that I felt safe with, like, for instance, from a smart meter. But then beyond that, we had relatively low levels in the rest of the house. So we were able to mitigate it with things like taking our Wi-Fi down at night, using a really inexpensive digital timer hooked up to our router and modem, and all that equipment. So it automatically turned off when we were sleeping. And we also put our cell phones in airplane mode at night, especially if they’re in our rooms, just so we don’t have that exposure while we are sleeping. There’s some evidence that we are potentially more susceptible to some of the harmful things that can happen from EMFs while we are sleeping because we’re in a parasympathetic state, and our body is potentially less resilient or we at least need to be in more of a healing state. So I felt like it was more important to mitigate at night. And if you were looking kind of at the 80/20 principle, and you guys have heard me talk about this, mitigating exposure at night when you’re certainly not using Wi-Fi anyway, is an easy way to kind of reduce overall exposure. We also spend a lot of time outside during the day and EMFs are typically, not always, but typically more concentrated in buildings and in homes where we have Wi-Fi, and cell phones, and smart appliances, or whatever it may be. And so, we spend a lot of time outside during the day, so I wasn’t as worried about our exposures then. My kids especially are outside a good amount of time. So I was more concerned with mitigating our nighttime exposure, which I have explained. And check out a link below where I will show you how to do that with a timer on your Wi-Fi. That was a really easy one that we don’t even have to think about anymore. But at the end of the day, I think that, like anything, EMFs can be more problematic if you’re already struggling with other health problems. So, I think it’s also important to have a good focus on overall health and resilience so that when we do encounter EMFs in small amounts, they aren’t as harmful. I’ve also seen cases where people, for whatever reason, had to be very careful about avoiding them or were so careful about avoiding EMFs that any exposure potentially caused problems. So I think it’s about finding that balance, and mitigating what we can without it becoming an obsessive focus, and spending time outside whenever possible, curating a really good sleep environment when it comes to EMFs, and then also making sure that we are resilient so we can handle when exposure does happen because in today’s world, it will. I got several questions related to protein, specifically after a podcast I did with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who talked about the importance of protein consumption. And also another one that I did with Diana from Sacred Cow about protein, especially for women and how important that is. I’ve gotten a lot of protein-related questions from you guys. And Brianna asked, “I’d love to know what your protein meals and snacks look like, especially on the go. Thanks for the information you share.” Lindsay said, “I would love to hear more about your strategies for getting enough protein with minimal saturated fat, especially with the APOE4 gene as I’m struggling with this. Do you use any kind of protein shakes or bars for busy times? I’m intolerant to whey and casein so that adds a whole other layer of difficulty. I love fish, chicken, and turkey, but would be thrilled to have more options. Also, any thoughts on soy?” So, just a quick few suggestions there. I’m also a big fan of seafood, Lindsey. And a lot of my protein does come from seafood from various sources. We’re lucky where we live that that’s an easy thing to access. But it’s also a tougher one to have on the go. And I found that, especially in, like, social situations, it’s hard to just open a can of sardines or eat seafood. So, I’ll put an exhaustive list below that you guys can find. But something that I really enjoy, I’m a big fan of Paleovalley beef sticks, which are relatively low in saturated fat, especially for beef. And I like them because they don’t have any of the nasty additives like corn-based citric acid that a lot of beef products have, especially beef stick products. And they’re naturally fermented. They use an old-school uncured fermentation method. So you also get a boost of probiotics from eating those. And it’s hard to find anything more convenient because they’re already non-perishable and ready to go. My kids are a big fan as well. So those never last very long in our house. I often also have duck eggs or hard-boiled duck eggs around. We have ducks, so there’s an easy protein source for us. But as I mentioned before, I can’t eat chicken eggs. That’s the one intolerance I haven’t been able to fully reverse yet. So, I avoid chicken eggs still currently but do fine with duck eggs. And so I tend to keep those on hand. That’ll be a quick protein if I need it. It’s also a very common breakfast for me to eat just a few eggs. Harder in social situations but on the go, I love cans of sardines and salmon because they’re so inexpensive. You can get wild-caught sardines with the bones, which are also a great source of calcium, or wild-caught salmon in a can with the bones, again, a great source of calcium. And compared to the fresh versions of either of those, they’re so inexpensive. They are packed with protein and all kinds of other vitamins and minerals and, comparatively for protein sources, very inexpensive. I know that sardines are a tough one for a lot of people and they are an acquired taste for sure but if you can acquire the taste or learn to love them like I have, it took several years but I actually love them now, they’re a great go-to protein source. A couple of tips that I find helpful if you’re not a fan of the taste, plain yellow mustard does a pretty good job of masking it, as does nutritional yeast. It’s also a source of protein and B vitamins. And that tends to help, kind of, dull the really fishy flavor. I also love making chopped salads with canned sardines where I chop up some romaine lettuce and some cucumbers, and onions, and a can of sardines, I’ll kind of, like, mash it up and then add lemon juice, and find that really, it’s a very, very mild flavor with that and that’s a really easy, inexpensive lunch. Also funny confession, I love raw oysters as a source of protein. And this isn’t a common one. I haven’t seen this on anybody else’s list of protein to eat on the go. But we have a local seafood market where we live, and I love to run in and get a pound of pre-shucked that day raw oysters. In fact, this is my version of fast food. So I guess some people would go through a drive-thru. I like to just run in there and grab a pound of raw oysters and eat them in my car if I’m on the go. It may not be everybody’s cup of tea, but I absolutely love oysters and I love all of the zinc, and protein, and everything else that they come with. And it’s about the same price comparatively as eating out. So, just a random tip there. You mentioned you like chicken and turkey already. Pre-cooking either of those are great to have on the go for a high protein snack. I often will throw a lot of chicken into the instant pot or pre-make something like egg roll in a bowl and have that on hand to take with me. Lindsey said she can’t have whey or casein, so this wouldn’t be an option for her. But I do tolerate dairy now and I’m a big fan of grass-fed cottage cheese. The one I usually get is called Good Culture. And that’s a high protein…they have very low-fat options but the high protein grass-fed dairy option, if you tolerate it, that’s a great one. We make a lot of homemade jerky at our house. We have a smoker and also just have done this in the oven for a really long time. I have a recipe on site at wellnessmama.com on how to make jerky. It’s actually way easier than you would expect and you save a lot of money when you make it yourself versus buying it. Plus, you can add all kinds of beneficial spices and healthy versions of salt instead of the processed salt that’s used in a lot of those. Especially this time of year, I also really love any kind of leftovers or soup in a mug or to-go cup. And these are so easy to make. I’ll often just dump leftovers into a mug and add hot bone broth and then I have a meal ready to go, whether it’s just lunch at home or if I’m on the go. And not related to protein but if you are consuming more protein, another thing that I have found really helpful is to make sure you’re getting enough prebiotics. And I personally love the prebiotics from Just Thrive. I will link to those as well. They’re not protein, but they do help with digestion and they taste great. It’s a great drink option to, kind of, mix things up. Jamie asks, “My question is can fasting blood sugar be too low? I’ve been really interested in tracking my blood sugar over the past few months, especially after listening to many of your podcasts about metabolic health. My fasting blood sugar in the morning has been around 70 and my glucometer says that I’m hypoglycemic. Is that a bad thing?” First and foremost, very important, I wanna say for any specifics related to your personal health, absolutely check with the doctor. This is not medical advice. I do not play a doctor on the internet. I will only speak to my personal experience here. I think what Jamie is referencing, I have been for several months wearing a continuous glucose monitor from Levels. And I will link to that as well If you guys wanna try it out. I have found it really helpful because I’ve been able to pinpoint how my body responds to different types of foods and what my glucose response looks like. I’ll also caveat and say that I do not think carbs are bad. I do not think that glucose response, in general, is bad. I think it’s really helpful data to have. But there’s a whole lot that goes into this. For instance, a really heavy sauna session or a workout session can give you a spike in glucose. This is not a bad thing. It’s actually a great thing. Even from diet, eating a lot of foods like sweet potatoes, even though they’re high in carbs and in starch, can raise your blood sugar, typically not as much as processed food, although some people will see a bigger spike from that. There are also random foods like grapes that tend to spike people pretty high even though it’s considered a natural food. I think there’s a lot of experimentation that goes into this. And so I’m definitely not giving any blanket advice here whatsoever. I haven’t gotten to wear a glucose monitor in the summer yet, but I also have a theory that in warmer weather and when we’re just in a hotter environment, we handle some of those foods like grapes and tropical fruit a little bit better. But I will keep you posted on that. Having worn a continuous glucose monitor for several months, I will say that my fasting glucose is usually in the 70s as well. And I consider this variation within the range of normal. My doctor does as well. And my doctor has said that 70 to 85 is good fasting range. Mine is usually in the 70s, sometimes as high as like 83, 85, depending on what I have done the day before. I have also had my glucose as low as the 50s when I was doing water fast, which I do feel like is low, but I still felt okay during those times. I am not recommending that by any means and I’m definitely not recommending water fasting, in general. I’ve done that under the care of a doctor. I think it certainly can serve its purpose but it’s not something I think is beneficial for everyone. But I’m just saying that to illustrate that I’ve had my glucose go as low as the 50s and still felt great. I’ve also seen that some things tend to impact fasting glucose the next morning, including meal timing the day before, and things like how much protein you ate, in general, the day before, and at lunch the day before, especially, and then anything you consumed after dark. I’ve said before that I’m a big fan of circadian fasting, just simply not eating when it’s dark outside, which is something that probably biologically lines up with how we were designed to eat. But if you’re worried about your blood sugar being too low, some things you could try experimenting with would be adding more protein to your meals the day before, especially at lunch, or even adding a small protein and healthy fat snack before bed. So eating before bed does tend to keep your fasting glucose higher. For that reason, a lot of people avoid eating after dark or before bed. But if you’re worried yours is too low, that could be a good strategy as well. Again, I think this is something to work with your own healthcare practitioner about. It’s very individualized. I personally feel fine and actually really, really great with fasting glucose in the 70s but there’s a lot of considerations. So, consult with the practitioner if you are concerned at all. I don’t have a name but somebody asked, “What about loose skin after losing weight? I have seven kids and I’m trying to lose weight. I’ve lost 20 pounds, but need to lose 40 more. I already have loose skin on my belly and some severe stretch marks. What did you or do you do after your weight loss for loose skin?” Well, first and foremost, whoever you are, congratulations on your weight loss and also on bringing seven humans into the world. I’ve had six and I know it’s no small feat to have one baby much less more than one baby. So congratulations on the incredible things your body has done. I will also say, I am right there with you. I think some skin changes are very, very normal, even after one pregnancy, even after no pregnancies, just as we get older. But especially after multiple pregnancies, that seems to be a pretty common thing. I think there’s genetic factors that come into play here. I think there’s some things we can do that help, kind of, mitigate the difference. But I think that there are some changes that happen. And I think this is, kind of, a two-part thing. On the one hand, I don’t think we can or should expect our bodies to look exactly like they did before having babies after we have babies because it is a change and we got an incredible payoff through that change. Most of us I don’t think would change that for the world but that also doesn’t mean we can’t do things that help us feel and be able to move better after that happens. I certainly have this too. And I had some loose skin, even before losing weight just from having six babies. And now I have even quite a bit more after the weight loss. And I’m very close to my weight loss goals. I’d like to lose a little bit more fat but actually maintain body weight relatively close to what I am now but gain some muscle as well. So I will likely still end up with more loose skin. I can say without a doubt that I would still opt to lose the weight again, even if I knew how much loose skin I would have just because I’m so much less bothered by the skin than I was by the extra weight. And I’m able to do so much more now, just with the way my body is and the ability I have now versus before. But loose skin certainly is an issue and I certainly understand where you’re coming from with this. For me, the skin is slowly but surely tightening back up. I think some of the factors that have come into play that were helpful here were consuming enough protein, using some form of red light therapy regularly. Also, not a fun suggestion for a lot of people, but cold exposure has been really helpful for this. And when I am bold enough and can keep myself doing it, getting regular cold exposure is probably the most beneficial for continued fat loss, especially visceral fat, and for tightening my skin. It’s not necessarily the most pleasant in the moment. But the feeling after cold exposure is absolutely incredible. And I’ve written about this before. There are certainly many expensive ways you can do this but you can also build a relatively inexpensive cold plunge in your house using an old freezer or just add ice cubes to a bathtub and do cold exposure there. I think there’s gonna be, again, a personalized supplemental factor that can help here as well. For me, choline and certain amino acids have been helpful, I think, in tightening skin from what I can tell, but I don’t know that that is gonna be applicable to everyone. I do think it’s extremely individualized, like every aspect of health, and I think some people might see tightening more or less than others but I think those things, in general, will help everybody. I also know people who have lost this much weight or have had that many kids who opted for loose skin removal surgery. From what I’ve read, I would probably actually lose about 8 to 10 pounds of loose skin if I opted for something like that. But it’s not really on my radar right now because the recovery sounds pretty tough and I’d probably only consider it if the loose skin was getting in the way of activities I wanted to do or causing discomfort during those activities, but I would say it’s not completely out of the question. I’m definitely going to stick with the cold therapy and eating enough protein and red light for a long time first to see what I can do naturally before I would ever consider this. Kristin said, “Can you talk more about the concept behind first principles? How do you figure them out and how do you get from here to there? Though, I have a feeling this is what your homeschool program is going to be about. Is there a good resource or book to read about first principles? I love hearing how you base your homeschool program around it and it really resonates with me. I’d like to teach my kids this. College is not the end-all-be-all goal for us or for them. Our kids are 8 and 10. We wanna teach them real-life practical skills so they’re not just living in debt or working to pay bills with no end in sight. My husband just retired at 52 and we have no debt, not even a mortgage. We wanna pass along that mindset.” Congratulations, Kristin. That is a huge accomplishment in and of itself. There are certainly some books. I’ve talked about first principles quite a bit before. This is a really fun topic for me. Some books I would recommend off the top of my head would be anything and everything from Charlie Munger. And you don’t even have to go to his books, you can just look up…He’s got a lot of recorded talks that have been online or a lot of articles written about his thought process. And those are a really helpful starting point. Elon Musk is also a very much first principles thinker, as was the physicist Richard Feynman. You can find a lot of his work as well. He’s got a great book that my kids love too that’s called “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!” A lot of those are really great starting points. Also, to answer your question, yes, I will be covering this in-depth in my curriculum. This is called Unstitute, and should have that to you guys, very, very soon. If you’re not familiar with the concept of thinking in first principles, the idea is basically dialing things back to the most common true denominators and then building from there, trying to strip out the assumptions that have already been in play related to that thing. Some common thinkers that thought like this, you might have heard about a few of them, people like Elon Musk, Aristotle, Thomas Edison, Richard Feynman, Nikola Tesla, and Einstein. I would say Elon Musk was probably the most well known modern first principles thinker that is most outspoken about it, but there are certainly many, many others as well. And Musk said that he thought it was a good framework for thinking. It’s basically physics. He said, “You know, the sort of first principles reasoning, generally, I think there are. What I mean by that is to boil things down to their fundamental truths and then reason up from there, as opposed to reasoning by analogy. Through most of our life, we get through life by reasoning by analogy, which essentially means copying what other people do slight variations.” And he said, “If we can go back to first principles, we can often think of completely novel and innovative ways of thinking about things. And this has become something I try to do as part of my daily and yearly process. It starts by basically questioning everything I think, or I think I know, or I think I believe to be true, and then doing this continually to get to the most basic building blocks, and then building from there.” So as Musk said, typically people reason by analogy or they’ll think in a pattern that kind of goes like this, you start with what, kind of, already exist or with limitations, and then you’ll iterate or improve on that, try to make it a little bit better, or you’ll explore available solutions, basically as a form of variations of what exists, but without maybe completely understanding the basic building blocks to begin with. And then you’ll look back in time, based on what’s been done, to try to determine what to do or what course of action to take, or what to build. But alternately, if you were gonna think in first principles, it might go more along the lines of asking why over and over and over again until you get back to the core fundamental building blocks. So that way, you’re starting with the possibilities. From there, you can define and explore a completely new path based on those first principles without the assumptions that have gone along with how things were done in the past. From there, you can create a new recipe based on those very basic building blocks and then start asking and working backwards from the question of what is the goal? And working backwards to build to there knowing what you know. It’s a, kind of, tough concept to grasp at first. But once you get it, it really sticks and it, kind of, revolutionizes how you think. And like many things in life, I think kids are naturally great at this. In fact, they are the best at asking “why” questions over and over and over to get to the root of thinking, in general. And for them, it all is new information. So if we’re able, one of the best gifts we can give them is just to answer their questions of why as much as possible to help learn those things. And I get that it’s hard. I recently traveled alone with my 4-year-old. My whole goal in that 18-hour trip was simply to respond to all of her questions without getting exasperated, and I was able to do it. But by the end of that day, I think I had answered literally hundreds of questions and I was probably close to the edge of my patience. But she remembers it as being an incredible day where she felt like she learned a lot. But kids are always asking why. “Why do we have to go to school? Why do you have to go to work? Why do I have to clean my room? Why do I have to do this?” And if we are able to give them solid answers to those questions, we can really give them a solid foundation for critical thinking. It’s a great opportunity, certainly a tough one as a parent. And often we shut down these questions with, “Because I said so,” or, “that’s the way it’s done,” or, “That’s the rules.” Not to say there aren’t times when our kids do need to just do what’s expected of them but we can use their why questions as a way to really give them a foundation for thinking. So as I mentioned, an example of this would be when it comes to school. I’ve done a more in-depth podcast specifically related just to this topic, and I will link to that as well so you can listen more if you’re interested. But I feel like we have, in the past 100 years, really just iterated on current variations of education, finding marginal ways to improve them with testing. Although I would argue in some ways, we’ve actually made them worse, but not really revolutionizing education despite the incredible advancements in technology. And that was the, kind of, motivation behind what I call Unstitute, which is my own curriculum, realizing if the goal is just to get kids to sit still for eight hours a day and to learn how to do things over and over, then school can be very productive for that. But if that’s not the goal anymore, what would actually accomplish the goal and whatever that looks like? And looking backwards, I realized we need our kids to have things like creativity, critical thinking, the ability to ask hard questions, the ability to always ask why. Those are things that are never gonna be fully outsourced to technology. And so how do we best give those gifts to our kids? And the curriculum was built around those ideas, not assumptions, like how do we keep kids busy for eight hours a day? So I think when we go back to core principles like that, we’re able to approach things in a new and novel way. And that has let me give my kids the educational part they need in just a couple hours a day and then have more time to do hands-on activities with them and let them really explore their creative passions. And this is a huge area of interest for me and I will be sharing more with you guys as soon as I have it available. I’ve been scrambling to turn this into a virtual system for other families, as virtual learning gets more and more available. Some other examples I think can, kind of, illustrate first principle thinking. So, people often think that, “Okay, so to lose weight, I just need to eat less or move more.” And that’s what a lot of weight loss programs are based on. But if you keep going back to core principles, there’s certainly an element of that but if you’re only basing on those assumptions, you’re gonna only make marginal improvements to existing systems. And so, you’re also not gonna be able to necessarily get more efficient at those systems. So, for me, weight loss really got effective when I went back to, “Well, what are the actual building blocks necessary to have a healthy weight?” And realizing that a lot of those things weren’t just calories in, calories out at all, but being able to exist in a state of low stress because stress or being in a state of fight or flight constantly makes it extremely difficult to lose weight because your body is in survival mode and it’s not in a natural physiological state where it is ready to lose weight. It has more important priorities. It’s protecting you. So from there, I was able to ask, “Well, what can I do to get my body in a healthier state so that it wants to reach a healthy weight and I’m not fighting it?” And that led to me exploring my past trauma, my mental and emotional health at a much deeper level. And it made all the physical aspects so much easier. I’ve used first principles thinking with investing with many, many areas of my life and had incredible results across the board. Another example and what I’m working on, a resource for you guys, is going back to first principles with all the things moms have to do in a day. I’ve said over and over that I think moms are the most powerful force for good on this planet but I also think we’re the most busy often. And I think if we can give moms more bandwidth and ability to be more effective, not just efficient, to me, it’s all about being effective, we can truly change the world. So that means going back to the core building blocks, the first principles thinking of what do moms actually need to do and what are the core things that make us effective as a mom, and then building from there toward the goal of how can we create incredible humans? How can we operate from a place of low stress as moms and building from there? So, like I said, I’m working on a resource for you guys about that as well. And stay tuned, I will release details as soon as I have it. This podcast is sponsored by Flying Embers, a better-for-you alcohol brand that brews Hard Kombucha with probiotic-powered Hard Seltzer. All of their products are zero sugar, zero carbs, USDA certified organic, and brewed with live probiotics and adaptogens. They’re also all keto, gluten-free, vegan, and low in calories, so they’re a great option for a functional low-calorie drink that is delicious. I love their flavors. They have some really unique ones, like Grapefruit Thyme and Guava Jalapeno, and I’m a big fan of their Clementine Hibiscus. All of their products are artfully crafted with a dry fermentation process, which gives the Hard Kombucha a perfectly balanced natural sweetness that tastes amazing despite having zero sugar and carbs. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal just for you. Receive 15% off your whole order. 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They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. Another great question from Tracy. This has been a recurring one in different ways. She said, “Mark Hyman recently talked about sugar causing cancer. I’ve heard Christopher Walker say that sugar is not the bad guy. Also, could you clear up the nuts and seeds debate? This one is crazy-making. Mark will say some of the healthiest things to eat are nuts and seeds. Christopher Walker will say they’re anti-nutrients. Even if you could explain how to make nuts work for us, they intuitively seem like health foods. But lastly, the debate on green vegetables, yes or no, healthy or not? Can you help with some of these contradictions?” And I love this question because it really brings to light an important thing I don’t think we’re talking about enough when it comes to health, and that is that there’s almost no universally good or bad food or supplement. There’s always more at play than that. It will be very, very difficult to say anything is universally good or bad. I think I could make an argument for certain types of vegetable oils. But beyond that, it’s very difficult to say something’s universally good or bad. There’s genetic factors that come into play. There’s current immunological and health factors for every individual that come into play. And I think it’s easy to try to vilify or glorify certain foods or supplements and it’s almost impossible to do because we are so different. And so, trying to follow anyone else’s system is almost always gonna be problematic. This is why I am very hesitant to publish, in any way on my site, exactly what I did and what I think other people should do based on my own experience because I think I found what worked for me. I think Dr. Hyman has found what worked for him and also for many of his patients, certainly. I think Christopher Walker has found what works for him and has also helped many of the people he works with as well. I think there’s tremendous wisdom in all of these approaches but I think there is also a huge pitfall and we have to be careful when we try to follow anyone else’s system exactly because there’s so much individualization. So, from my experience, there is a threshold for all of these things. And what that threshold is, it varies from person to person, based on current health, on genetics, and lots of other factors. So we can’t make black or white statements about most things. So, for instance, I don’t personally think sugar is objectively bad. I think refined sugar can be problematic, especially regularly or in large amounts. But if you’re talking about just sugar, you’re talking about things like glucose and fructose, things that are present in many, many foods, things like carbs, that’s what’s present in many, many foods. Carbs turn into those things in the body. And how much of those things we need varies, again, based on our individual needs. So, I think there is a threshold. I think we each have to figure out what ours is. But eating one refined sugar cookie is not likely to cause cancer. Eating a pack of cookies every day could have some long-term problematic health consequences, especially depending on where your body is, just like smoking one cigarette is probably not going to cause problems. But smoking a pack a day, very well could cause some problems. It’s all about a threshold and it’s about knowing what each of our bodies actually need. So, to directly answer your question, I don’t think refined sugar is a health food for anyone necessarily but I think how much carbohydrates and even glucose and fructose a person can handle varies a lot based on person to person, based on genes, and a whole lot of other factors. I don’t think we can make blanket statements. I think that nuts and seeds can be a great source of protein and fats but they can also be problematic for some people who have an immune response to them. Nuts and seeds are also very calorie-dense so they can make weight loss difficult, even though they’re not objectively bad. I think it is possible to be healthy without nuts and seeds. I think it is possible to be healthy without sugar. I also think those things can be part of a healthy diet, especially in moderation. I think it depends on you. I think there’s a lot of wisdom in past cultures when it comes to nuts and seeds. They soaked them or sprouted them, and those things reduce some of the anti-nutrients that Christopher Walker is talking about, like phytic acid. So I think, in general, those things can be problematic to consume every day depending on your own health status. And I think you are the best expert on that. And that finding out and experimenting for yourself that you are your primary healthcare provider and that when you find those answers, you will have the best shot at success for yourself. Same thing with green vegetables. This one might be a little more controversial. I think green vegetables can be very healthy. I think you can also be very healthy without them if you need to. I think they contain things like oxalates, which can be problematic for some people, especially at certain times, especially in huge amounts. So personally, I find I do better on cooked green vegetables rather than raw. And I’ve been actually eating more root vegetables and carbs lately, based on how my body feels and based on a much higher degree of exercise. It’s all very individual. It depends on you. It depends on what you’re doing. It depends on your genes. It depends on how much you’re moving. It depends on how well you’re sleeping and what your glucose response is. So, the bottom line is, these aren’t contradictions. They are just beautiful examples of our individuality. And so if we stopped trying to define foods or supplements or anything as good or bad and we shift to the focus to just nourishing our bodies, how do we best nourish our bodies, then we can build good building blocks rather than trying to avoid these foods completely and hopefully come to a much better place of individualization for what’s gonna be best for our health. Cheryl says, “I would like an update on your red light therapy. Do you do it daily and what results do you continue to see and feel?” So, to answer that question, I still use red light mostly daily. I don’t do anything every day, again, but I am now using it largely for helping with my loose skin, hopefully, but I’ve also found that it’s helpful for protecting against sun damage. I spend a lot of time in the sun whenever I can and I have no plans to stop that. And I’ve found that red light therapy tends to protect against damage from the sun. And even anecdotally, just my experience, that spending time on the red light before going out in the sun in a given day tends to give me more sun tolerance so that I’m less reactive, I’m less likely to burn if I am out in the sun. If you’re not familiar with red light therapy, it’s also known as photobiomodulation or low-level light therapy, also called biostimulation, or photonic stimulation, or lightbox therapy. It has a lot of names. The basic idea is that it’s using a specific wavelength of light to treat the skin to accomplish various outcomes. And studies have shown that different wavelengths affect the body in different ways. The most effective wavelengths tend to be in the ranges of 630 to 670 and 810 to 880. And these very specific wavelengths of red light create a biochemical effect in ourselves that serves to increase mitochondrial function. And this is a big deal. This improves ATP. If you’re not familiar with that, that’s adenosine triphosphate, which is essentially cellular energy. And it increases production of ATP in the body. And ATP is essentially our source of energy for every cell in the body. Without it, we don’t function. Without enough of it, we don’t function well. So this is a big deal. And those wavelengths between 630 and 880 are used on the skin surface. Red light therapy penetrates about 8 to 10 millimeters into the skin, depending on what area of the body is using the red light. This can easily affect all skin layers, even reaching into blood vessels, lymph pathways, nerves, and hair follicles. I wanna make sure that I talk about this specifically but red light therapy has been said to help things like rejuvenating facial skin and smoothing skin tone, helping build collagen, which is great for wrinkles, repairing sun damage, like I mentioned, activating the lymphatic system for potentially improved detoxification, decreasing inflammation, especially on the skin, helping fade scars and stretch marks, which is certainly one way I’m trying to use it, improving hair growth and hair thickness, stimulating wound healing, and many other things. I’ve personally used it for my thyroid and for helping with hair growth after thyroid disease. I’m now in recovery from thyroid disease, but it’s helped me to recover my hair. And I’m also now using it like I mentioned to tighten loose skin after six babies and a lot of weight loss. There’s a lot more to it as well. I’ll make sure that there are some links you guys can follow to learn more if you’re interested, as well as to see the specific devices I use. I think you can get a lot of the same benefits from careful sun exposure. I recommend the podcast I did with Ari Witten about sun. But I think a red-light light in your home can also be a really beneficial health tool. Amy asks, “I tried intermittent fasting and keto for almost a year and I gained over 20 pounds despite eating only 1 to 2 times a day. I’m not even sure how that’s possible and I have been keeping records. My metabolism is a mess now. It’s extremely slow. I’m wondering how to fix it and if some bodies just don’t do well with IF.” I think this absolutely goes back to that idea of individualization, especially for women, our hormones are a lot more sensitive. And I’ve tackled this subject in a lot of podcasts because there are so many conflicting opinions. I think the answer, again, goes back to figuring out what works best for you. It sounds like your body is not loving keto. I think there could be a lot of things that come into play here. I think there’s also a lot of variation in what keto means. And I don’t know which version you’ve been following. But I, for instance, don’t do well on strict, what a lot of people call keto as well because it’s high in saturated fat. One of the things I found for me was that I needed to really severely limit saturated fat, and I consume very low levels of that, much higher amounts of things like olive oil, and do much better that way. Some women will also just not respond well to very strict intermittent fasting, especially eating once a day, which can down-regulate certain hormones. So, I would start with actually researching people like Christopher Walker, or Reike, and the hormonal metabolic things they talk about related to that. And experimenting with still looking maybe at calories just to get an idea of how much you’re eating, but experimenting with maybe instead upping protein and still potentially some things like root vegetables to get some healthy sources of carbs, maybe circadian fasting. So rather than just eating one or two times a day, eating more often, eating more calories, but just not eating after dark or experimenting with early morning sunlight to help get your hormones back in the right level, and then experimenting with how much protein, fat, and other just food, in general. There also is a good possibility you’re not eating enough food. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but this ended up being a big key for me. So I have, in the past 2 years, lost over 90 pounds and I’m eating much more food now than I was before I lost weight, like a lot more and a lot more protein. I’m eating over 100 grams of protein most days. I am eating just much more volume of food and I found that that’s made weight loss easier. So I think there’s gonna be an element of really experimenting with your body and figuring out what’s gonna work there. I have a lot of resources related to this. So I’ll make sure that some of those are linked so that you can continue to learn. Melissa asked, “Can you share any of your family systems and checklists, grocery shopping app? Do you use an electronic calendar or paper one that you can write on?” So, the good news here, I’ve gotten versions of this question enough that I am working on a resource. I’ll have a book actually out for you guys soon, called “Zen and the Art of Dirty Dishes” that has all of my systems and how to build your own. But to directly answer your questions now, I use a system called Real Plans for meal planning and grocery shopping. And I will put a link here so that you can get all of my recipes. If you try it, all the Wellness Mama recipes will be automatically in there. It’s amazing because it lets you meal plan for the whole week, input how many people you’re meal planning for, and then it will export a shopping list in the app that you can use and it checks off as you go. You can also already check off anything you know you have in your house. And as you’re planning, if you have allergies or just kids who won’t eat certain things or you won’t eat certain things, you can have it exclude any recipes that include those foods. So it’s extremely intuitive and easy to use. It even has a feature to help you use what you have in your pantry and freezer. And this has really simplified my life, especially this past year when we had been eating at home literally every single meal. So, I’ll make sure that’s linked as well. I use my phone calendar for everything now so that I can sync with my family and make sure we’re all on the same page for schedule. I used to use a paper calendar but have now fully digitized. And I have written systems in our home as well for our kids. So the older ones who have technology, these systems are on their technology as well but they’re also written down at home so nothing falls through the cracks. Last two questions. Thanks for sticking with me, guys. Bonnie asked, “Is there anything that can help with cellulite?” And I have a whole post about this that I will link to so you guys can learn more. But I think that there are some things that can definitely help. But first, I want to say that some variations in skin tone are completely natural, especially for women. There are very, very few women, even women very low body fat who have absolutely no cellulite. So I think that there’s two parts of this. I think there is a part of recognizing that we aren’t meant to be perfect and having some variation there is actually a wonderful, beautiful thing. That said, there are still things we can do that are also helpful and beneficial to our body that can help reduce cellulite if it’s a thing that’s causing you to be self-conscious. Specifically, I’ve written about these things before. You can try dry brushing, which is the process of gently brushing the skin with a brush dry, as the name suggests, not with water. And this is said to stimulate the lymphatic system. And many people claim that it really helps with cellulite. I’ve noticed a difference as well. It doesn’t seem to be entirely universal but there are other benefits to this as well, especially if you’re well hydrated. So, hydration and dry brushing, both very inexpensive or free and at least worth a try. Red light therapy, which I mentioned as well, can also be helpful for cellulite. Anything that increases collagen production can potentially be helpful for cellulite. I think that’s likely why red light is beneficial. And also getting enough dietary protein and collagen seem to have a positive effect for a lot of women. I’ll make sure that the post is linked there as well so that you can learn from it but, again, realizing that there is some normal variation here. We’re not meant to be airbrushed and that’s perfectly okay. But we can do some things. And dry brushing, red light, eating more protein are all largely beneficial to us on other levels as well, not just getting rid of cellulite. So I think there are some wonderful holistic things we can do that help really reverse that. Alyssa has a fun question. “What shoes does your family wear both indoor and outdoor?” And I will say indoor in our house, none, we never wear shoes at all. And even indoor other places, as minimal shoes as possible. Outdoor, I prefer my kids not wearing shoes. I don’t wear shoes. I do and they do wear boots when it’s really cold or I’ll sometimes wear sandals or flats if I’m on rough ground. But, in general, I don’t push shoes much. And I prefer to be and I prefer my kids to be barefoot and grounded when they’re outside. This is a surprisingly controversial topic that I would not have expected, just because being barefoot is so common to me, I forget that it’s not to everyone else. But there’s a lot of potential benefits here that other cultures have understood that we don’t, potentially. Walking barefoot benefits the body in various ways. If we think about it logically, feet weren’t really designed to be in shoes, at least not the kind of shoes we wear today where our toes are constrained and the soul of the shoe is very stiff so the body is not actually feeling the ground or moving. And walking around barefoot might have some pretty impressive benefits. Specifically, it supports the body’s natural feedback systems. There’s a biochemist named Katy Bowman, you might have heard of her, I will link to her. She’s really, really phenomenal. And she claims that modern shoes are contributing to a lot of our problems, including things like osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, knee, hip, and back pain and bunions. And this is partially because shoes block full motion of the foot joints and they block nerve feedback from the feet. She explains, “There are nerves that interpret the shape of the ground by how the bones and the feet bend at 33 different points. This creates a mental image in the brain, similar to how a dolphin uses sonar to avoid obstacles. Wearing shoes prevents any motion in these joints except the angle and leaves the shoe air essentially blind to the environment. This is what makes stiff shoes the worst when it comes to natural development.” And this is a large part of the reason that some neurologists recommend really flat shoes or bendable shoes, like minimal shoes or swim shoes for children with neurological delays. This is actually a pretty well-documented thing, that wearing shoes with less padding improves the feedback there from the feet and helps these kids learn how to walk. But even if we don’t have those specific concerns, we can get that same benefit. Most of us are also wearing very cushioned supportive shoes with a positive heel. Positive heel means that the heel of the shoe is higher than the toe. Typically for women, the dressier the shoe, the more positive the heel. And the more athletic the shoe, the more cushioned it is. And, again, this is a controversial one, some experts speculate that this may cause more harm than good, saying that cushioned running shoes, which only date back a few decades, may seem comfortable, but they might contribute to foot injuries. And again, with the neurofeedback, they might contribute to other injuries as well. So, this is a somewhat controversial topic, but I do think it seems like there’s a benefit and that

Our thoughts (especially the ones we think about ourselves) make such an impact on our wellness and happiness. I’m sure every mom out there knows exactly what I’m talking about! My guest today does too. Marissa Peer, the founder of IamEnough.com, designed an entire therapy system to help people find and reverse the limiting beliefs and thoughts that weigh us down. Called Rapid Transformational Therapy, or RTT, her methods work really, really quickly in many cases. We go into how this process works, as well as how we as parents can make sure to give our children a strong foundation in this area. You actually might hear me take a second to respond a couple of times in this episode… and it’s because I was writing down so many notes! Take a listen and see if you love Marisa’s advice as much as I did. Episode Highlights With Marisa Peer What limiting beliefs are and where they come from How shifting thoughts and beliefs can cause rapid and immediate change Why treatments don’t have to be complex when you treat the root vs the behavior How not having core needs met leads to limiting beliefs later in life The one thing young children really need (hint: presence and not stuff) The way Marisa helps people deal with pain in a rapid and complete way What RTT is and how it works differently than most therapies How to help your children not internalize painful childhood experiences A really important reason to let kids have an opinion The surprising connection to infertility that is often a block for couples The better questions we can ask ourselves to help reprogram our brain to have the body we want, to find love, etc. Ways to know the questions to ask yourself and how to be specific enough And more! Resources Mentioned Marisa Peer Website | Instagram | Facebook I Am Enough by Marisa Peer Other Marisa Peer books RTT Guide for Moms Children’s Meditation (Zappy Cells) Tess of the D’Urbervilles Jane Eyre The Body Keeps the Score It’s All in Your Head Feelings Buried Alive Never Die More From Wellness Mama 411: Breaking the Invisible Corset & Connecting to Your Body With Lauren Geertsen 339: Healing Trauma, Releasing Shame, Finding Joy & Becoming a Super Attractor With Gabrielle Bernstein 309: How I Overcame Trauma (and Lost 50 Pounds) 249: How to Harness Energy & Create Success From the Inside Out With Suzy Batiz of Poo~Pourri 212: How to Release Cravings and Emotional Eating With EFT Talking to Yourself With Self-Compassion (& Why It’s Healthy) EFT: How Tapping & Emotional Freedom Technique Work Do you think you have any limiting beliefs that hold you back? What did you think of this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. Today’s podcast is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals. They’re a company I love and they’re on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet with clean, effective products that really work. They have a whole hive of products packed with immune-loving essentials to help you feel great every day. I love their B.LXR. You might have even heard me talk about this before because it’s a natural energy and focus product that really, really works for me. You can get focused and find your flow for all of your work-related resolutions, and it helps really just bust right through brain fog naturally. It’s a little tiny shot you can take first thing in the morning to stay energized and focused all day long. It truly gives me more energy than coffee without any jitters or any crash. And it’s powered by all-natural ingredients, like science-backed adaptogens and other healthy bee products that are incredible for the brain. These little vials support clear thinking and they may even help support a healthier brain over time. When you’re ready to upgrade, check out Beekeeper’s Naturals and discover other clean remedies that your family will love. Save 15% on your first order by going to beekeepersnaturals.com/wellnessmama. This podcast is brought to you by Wellnesse, that’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. It is my new company that makes personal care products like hair care, toothpaste, and now hand sanitizer. And this month especially, we are focusing on hair care. We’re running something called the love your locks challenge. Now through the 14th, you can save 14% off dry shampoo and other hair care products with the code VALENTINE. And we’re doing this as a challenge because most people don’t realize a lot of hair care products contain really harsh detergents. But your hair is not dirty laundry and you don’t need to wash it like it is. And so we formulated products that are designed to work with your hair to maintain natural strength and shine and to help it actually get stronger and thicker over time. And we’re inviting you to try it and be part of the challenge. Specifically, we’re doing a fun challenge related to how long can you go without washing your hair using just dry shampoo. And I’ll be chronicling my week on Instagram if you guys wanna join along with me. And I would love if you would tag me at Wellness Mama and also Wellnesse, @mywellnesse on social media, with your hair before and after, and feel and see the results for yourself. But, again, to join us in the challenge, save 14% off all of our haircare products at wellnesse.com from February 7th-14th. Use the code VALENTINE to save 14% and don’t forget to tag us with your photo so we can share you on social media. Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the end, my new line of hair care, toothpaste, and other personal care products. Check those out at wellnesse.com. This episode is all about reversing limiting beliefs, ideas like, I’m not good enough, I’m not enough. I’m not lovable. I’m here with Marissa Peer, who is the creator of the award-winning Rapid Transformational Therapy, which is a really fascinating and I find a novel type of therapy that works really, really quickly in many cases. She’s also the founder of Iamenough.com. She has multiple best-selling books and she is a speaker and expert that speaks all around the world. And the reason I wanted to have her on today is to really go deep on some of these therapies she does with people, both from the perspective of how we as adults can kind of rewire and undo some of these limiting beliefs that stem from childhood but also to better understand the core needs of children, how many of these problems stem from things in childhood when kids don’t feel safe or loved or important for various reasons, and how we as parents can help to hopefully guard our children against some of those pitfalls. Certainly, none of us are gonna do it perfectly but she gives some really practical advice both in how we as adults can let go of some of these limiting beliefs often much more quickly than we think and also how we can set our kids up with a strong foundation going into adulthood. So, a very fascinating episode. I learned a lot. I took notes. You actually might hear me take a second to respond a couple of times in this episode. And it’s because I was writing down notes. And all of my notes and all of the things she mentioned are in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. So we’ll definitely start there if you wanna keep learning from her. But without further ado, I cannot wait to share her with you. So let’s jump in. Marisa, welcome. Thanks for being here. Marisa: Thank you for inviting me. I’m flattered and honored to be here. Katie: I’m so excited to share you with everyone listening today because I think you have so much value that you bring, and especially for all the women listening, just so, so many words of wisdom. But to start off, I’d love to hear, for anyone who isn’t familiar with you already, just a little bit of your story and how you came to be who you are now and to do all this work that you’re doing. Marisa: Well, my story is I always wanted to be a child psychologist but I found that very painful, not as much painful, a job where you couldn’t really get the results you wanted. And I’ve always been fascinated my entire life by human behavior. And so I left training in child psychology and went to work in L.A. for Jane Fonda teaching aerobics. And that got me really interested in psychology of eating disorders, which led on to me fascinated by infertility. And so everything I’ve done has led on from something else. But I didn’t plan this career, but I certainly found it and I’m very glad I did. Katie: And I’ve read quite a bit of your work and you have several books out. I’ll make sure we link to all of those. But I love the work that you do, especially surrounding limiting beliefs. And that’s been something that really has been helpful and resonated with me. So, for anyone who’s not familiar, can you explain to us in a high level what limiting beliefs are? Marisa: Yes, I mean, you know, we all believed that our feelings are ruled by our behaviors, but it’s actually the other way around, our behaviors are ruled by our feelings. So, if you’re looking at the law of control, our thoughts control our feelings, our feelings control our actions and our actions control our events. So if you peel that back, events, actions, feelings, it all starts with thinking. And it’s very easy to change your thinking. For instance, imagine you’re a binge eater, and you try to control that by going to the gym or putting yourself in a really restrictive diet or taking appetite suppressants, what you’re doing is dealing with the behavior but it’s the thought that runs it is I’m not enough and I need more. Indeed with any addiction, if you’re addicted to alcohol and you treat the alcoholism but not the underlying feeling, which is I’m just not good enough. And so, when you can change your thinking, it really can and does change your entire life. And that’s very good news for many reasons. One, of course, is that changing your thinking is free. It’s pretty easy. It doesn’t require hard work. It’s not like changing your body and having to do 600 sit-ups and the plank every day. And once you start to do it, it stops being what you do and actually becomes who you are. So it becomes a really powerful tool to start living the life you want without it being effort, and hard work, and disappointments. It doesn’t mean you don’t have to work for what you want but it means it’s easier when you go at that knowing and believing that you’re worthy of it and deserving of it. Katie: Yeah, I think of an example from my own life was that for a lot of years, I had this script in my head that I was trying to lose weight, and if only I lost weight then I would be happy or then I would love myself. And what I ended up realizing in my own journey was that I could choose to change that belief, and to love myself, and to choose happiness in that moment. And then it actually became so much easier to do all of the things that led to weight loss because I wasn’t fighting myself anymore. But I think often for anyone struggling, you mentioned some big problems, you know, eating disorders or alcoholism, things that are very serious issues, there often is that perception that it’s going to be very hard or that it has to be very, very difficult or an uphill battle or a hard process. And I love that about your work because you really have this message that these shifts, like you said, there’s still work involved, but they don’t have to be this really, really difficult thing that we often make them out to be. But I’m curious what are some of those common limiting beliefs that people run into? I know that you have a lot of work around the idea of I am not enough and that seems to be an incredibly common one. Marisa: Yeah, it’s the most common one. I would say that at least a third, if not 50% of all my clients come in with that belief, “I’m not enough. I’m not good enough. I’m not lovable enough. I’m not smart enough. I’m not interesting enough. I’m not worthy enough.” And that lies behind things like hoarding, compulsive shopping, addictions, destructive eating, even having wealth blocks and love blocks, you know, self-sabotaging yourself all originate in the feeling of not being enough. The good thing is, it’s very, very easy to change it because it’s not true. No baby is born thinking they’re not enough. We can pick that belief up very, very fast but we can also get rid of it very fast. Katie: So, walk us through that a little bit. Like, what are some of the ways that people can begin to…? I know that you have programs specifically for all of this and I’ll make sure we link to those. But I feel like when I first heard about this, I was a little bit in disbelief of, like, can it actually be that easy? Like, it seems like it should be hard. Marisa: Yeah, that’s so interesting because that’s such a misconception I come up against all the time. Like, doctors will say, “Well, this person’s got anorexia. That’s a very complex illness, therefore the treatment is complex. This client has bipolar depression, that’s so complex that the treatment must be complex.” I’ve met people who say, you know, bulimics need 40 sessions to get better. But I’ve never believed that. But I believe that the many of us are presenting problem, I have depression, I have anxiety, I have panic attacks, I have an eating disorder, they’re complex. But the treatment doesn’t need to be complex if and when you can find what causes the problem and treat that. When you’re treating the problem itself, I’m trying to treat an eating disorder, or a compulsion, or an addiction, but all I’m treating is the behavior, then that can take a long time. But if I treat the origin of the behavior, if I go back to the not-enoughness and treat that, it’s a different game. I mean, recently, you know, I can’t believe I’ve been denying myself love for years and years and years because of a thought. My thoughts have allowed me to deny myself love. And I did all these things. I lost weight. I got a little bit of tweaking here and there. I had a makeover. I joined a dating agency, I joined a dating app, and none of it worked. But when I decided I was lovable, I found someone in the street just walking to the bus stop. Because that’s the thing, you have to treat the source of the pain. A bit like you going to the doctor and saying, “I have headaches.” And he might say, “Well, you know, your headaches are caused because your posture in your back is wrong.” So now we know that the source of the pain is not the source of the problem. And if you said, “Yeah, I know that but I only wanna take headache pills. You can keep telling me my spine is wrong and my hip’s wrong but I insist on taking headache pills for spinal problems,” we think, “Well, that’s crazy.” But it’s very much the same thing. The source of your issues is usually not-enoughness, I feel inadequate, I don’t feel good enough, and you must treat that. And when you treat that, you fix all the other problems simultaneously. And that’s why it’s easy because you’re treating the source and the root of a problem rather than the problem itself. And in treating the source and the root, you treat all the offshoots too. Katie: And it seems like so much of this…You mentioned…I love that line that…I’ve read that in your writing before too that newborn babies aren’t born with the idea that they’re not enough. So this is obviously a learned thing. Do you find that all or almost all of these things go back to a point in childhood for most people? Marisa: Almost everybody goes back to childhood. I mean, a lot of scientific and medical studies say that our character is set by the time we’re 5, some people say 7. I mean the Catholics say, “Give me a boy until he’s 5 and I’ll give you the man.” And I think Roman said until 7, some will say until 3. But we know…you know, eminent child psychologists know that our childhood shapes our adulthood. And so, for instance, if you were to go to Romania and adopt a little 3-year-old child and bring them back to Florida, and love them, and love them, and love them, that doesn’t mean they’ll get better because so much damage is done in our formative years. And the biggest problem in our formative years is that when we’re little, we don’t have that many needs. I need to feel safe, that’s important. I need to feel loved. I need to feel I matter so you’ll take care of me. So as a little baby, we only have a few needs. Safe, loved, important, significant. And when those needs are not met, what happens is we don’t blame the parents. We blame ourselves. The child never stops loving parents, they stop loving themselves. Well, “My needs not getting met, I guess I’m not worthy of it.” And they’ll never get met. And now that child becomes an adult who still has this belief, “No one’s gonna meet my needs. I’m not lovable, I’m not good enough, I’m not worthy enough.” And that’s the terrible sadness because every baby is worthy of love. No baby says, “I won’t cry because no one’s coming. I won’t demand to be fed because I’m greedy. I won’t expect my parents to play with me because they’re exhausted.” A baby has a belief, “I’m worthy of all of this.” And it’s sad that we think we’ve lost it, but we haven’t lost it, we’ve just forgotten we ever had it. And so you can get all of that back and very easily too. Katie: Yeah, I’ve read a quote similar to that recently that completely stopped me in my tracks. And it said, you know, “When you criticize your children, they don’t stop loving you, they stop loving themselves.” And that really made me think a lot. And, kind of, to your point of all of these things, going back to childhood, and when I’ve read your work, I’ve been able to see some of those patterns in my own life. And I feel like from here, there’s kind of a two-part question. Many of the adults listening probably are recognizing some of these limiting beliefs or that, kind of, core feeling of not feeling lovable or not feeling enough. But also, the majority of the people listening are parents. And so I always think when I hear things like this, like, what can I do as a mom to help my kids have the best foundation and the best mindset going into adulthood? Certainly, I think all moms, we do our best, and still, our kids are gonna probably have things they have to work through. None of us are gonna do it perfectly. But what can we do to give them the best foundation? Marisa: Well, you know, all children ever need…I wish I’d known this when I was a parent, I didn’t, I found it out later. But what children need is for you to be present with them. That’s all they want, you to be present with them. They don’t really want stuff. I mean, I’m not talking about 15-year-old kids who want the latest Gameboy and the latest Nikes. But little children want you to be present. And if you ask children what their happy zone is…For me, my parents had a house in the South of France, we went every summer. But my happiest memory, without question, was picking berries with my grandmother, making homemade jam, or going to, like, what we used to call a “jumble,” I don’t know what we call them in America, and buying a stack of magazines, and going to, I guess it’s equivalent of like a car boot sale. So, children’s memories are always like playing puzzles, cooking together. It’s not really about doing stuff that costs a lot of money. So being present with them is vital in raising their self-esteem. As a parent, your child’s self-esteem is a mark of how successful you are or not. And that can be very difficult when kids go to school, and they are judged on what grade they’re in, and what they look like. And it’s very, very difficult as a parent to get it right but the most important thing is to make your kids believe in themselves, to raise them with healthy, high self-esteem. Katie: And then for the parents, I mean like I said, I’ve recognized some of these things in myself, and these have been things I’ve worked through in my own life. And certainly, I think a lot of the things that you work with people on are so timely and relevant right now. And these limiting beliefs can impact our adult life in so many different ways. You have something called Rapid Transformational Therapy. Can you talk about that a little bit at a high level? And then I’d love to go a little bit specific on that as well. Because to circle back again, and just really highlighting that idea, I think for years, I made the process harder on myself than I needed to because I expected it to be hard. I thought it had to be hard for it to work. And once I finally realized that wasn’t the case, it was amazing how rapidly things shifted. But walk us through how you work with people in therapy so people can, kind of, understand just how drastically and quickly things can shift. Marisa: Yeah. Well, a lot of people believe that…I mean, I’ve been told by many other people, the words rapid and therapy should not go together, that therapy isn’t rapid, indeed, it’s long and painful without even any guarantee of a resolution at the end. But there’s no other treatment model that says, “Bring me your pain and we’ll discuss it.” No dentist says “Yes, you’ve got a very bad cavity. Come along and we’ll have a conversation with you every week, and when you trust me enough, we’ll start to do some work.” No cardiologist, no dermatologist says, “We need to discuss your heart problem or your skin problem every week and maybe after some time, you might feel better.” Therapy is the only model that says, “Turn up with your pain, and we’ll discuss it, and we’ll build a relationship around our discussion, and then when we build a relationship together, we might just be able to crack through your pain and help you or help you live with it.” And that’s not a therapist’s fault but it’s such a strange model to offer people because if you bring your pain to anyone else, a chiropractor, a doctor, a dentist, they tend to fix the pain as fast as they possibly…And no one says in ER, “I need to develop a relationship with a surgeon before they operate on me.” That often we never even meet them because we’re anesthetized by then. And so, I wanted to create…I mean, I had the same model, which is bring me your pain and let me fix it for you as fast as I possibly can. And if you can participate in the fixing, even better. So people come to me with every kind of pain you can imagine, from physical pain, from migraines, or irritable bowel, or polycystic ovary syndrome, or fibromyalgia. So we have real physical pains. And nearly 70% of ailments now are diagnosed as psychosomatic, which means the headache is absolutely real, the nerve pain is real, but what’s causing them is not broken parts of your body, but broken parts of your thinking. And that’s very easy to fix. And then we have emotional problems, which don’t have the same physical pains, but they have other issues. I feel depressed, I feel sad, I have panic attacks. I have self-sabotaging behavior. I’m self-destructive. I don’t have love. And very much the same thing, whether you’re in emotional pain or physical pain, you shouldn’t have to wait any time at all to get better. It should start to happen immediately. So RTT immediately begins to look at why. So, when we train people, we say, “Look, your first job is to be a detective. Put on your detective hat and find out when did this happen? What was going on? Why did this client suddenly become morbidly obese? Why did this client go from straight-A student to failing? Why did this client suddenly get panic attacks?” So we’re gathering information like a detective, finding out why. And many clients say, “Well, you know, when I found out why, it’s because my dad left when I was a baby. Because my mother cried throughout the pregnancy. I had no idea that I blamed myself for that.” And the minute they find out why, they feel so much better. And then the second part of the session is moving from being a detective to almost like a dentist and removing toxic matter, toxic beliefs, toxic thoughts, toxic decisions people have made, getting rid of them and replacing them with something better. And then the third and final part is being a coder. And just as a coder wires into a computer better software to make it function better, we wire into our clients much better software to make them believe in themselves to reactivate the confidence they were born with but they forgot they ever had. And also, it’s recorded, the one that’s terribly important is a client is given a recording that’s personal, it’s not a generic relaxation. It’s made in the session. It’s a recording made for them. The coding bit is recorded. The client takes that home. They play it for 20 days because RTT is based on the rules of the mind. And the rules of the mind say the mind learns by repetition. The rules of the mind say every thought you think is the blueprint that your mind and body work to make real, that the strongest force in you is that you act in a way that matches the way you define yourself. And that emotion is way more powerful than logic. So I’ve put all these rules of the mind together to form a therapy based around our own mind rules that make our mind accept new beliefs while letting go of old ones quite rapidly, very rapidly, actually. Katie: So to follow up on those three points, which I love that it’s that clear cut, so, you said the first part is trying to figure out why or where that comes from. And as an example, I know for me, I went back to several times in childhood where I had made a mistake or dropped something and kind of gotten yelled at by my mom and had internalized that I wasn’t good enough or that I was always making mistakes or whatever it was. And even just being able to recognize that that’s where it came from and reframe it now understanding also a mom’s perspective and realize that likely had nothing to do with me, it was maybe she was having a bad day or she was stressed out, and I could totally understand that now when I was able to look at it differently. But do you find even just people being able to pinpoint and know that why is a big step? Marisa: It’s a huge step because when you’re little, you know, here’s the truth for any child, when you’re a little baby, you know one thing, if your parents like you, you’ll survive. It doesn’t matter if you’re a baby kitten, a baby puppy, or a baby human, we understand innately that if my parents love me, I’m gonna make it. And so when our parents get angry with us and shout at us and scream at us because they’re having their own issues, we always think it’s our fault because we must idealize the people that we believe our survival depends on. So when mom screams at you, dad flounces off, dad leaves mom, whatever is going on, a child can’t work out, “Oh, you see, my dad’s an alcoholic. My mom’s got depression. My parents should never have never gotten married.” All a child can think is, “Oh, they don’t love me because I’m not enough.” Because it’s safer to blame yourself than to blame the person that your survival depends on. So that makes perfect sense. The problem is that we never get to a stage where we think, “Oh, right, let me go back now and reset that because I always thought it was my fault my mom was unhappy. Now I understand my mom made very bad choices. She was a bit of a victim and it wasn’t my fault.” We don’t have a reset button to press so we go through life believing what it must be. If my mom was unhappy and she didn’t love me, who’s gonna love me? You know, I saw that with Princess Diana a lot because her own mother left when she was little and didn’t come back. She always believed, “Well, if she didn’t love me, who could love me?” That was very much the same thing with Marilyn Monroe. You see if you look at Whitney Houston, or Amy Winehouse, or Heath Ledger, and even Michael Jackson, or George Michael, whenever the child has to perform to get the parent’s praise, or has to achieve, has to work for love, they will believe, “Oh, no, I don’t get love. I have to work really hard to earn it, and at any time it will be taken away,” and they often go into self-sabotage because of this belief, “I’m not lovable the way I am. I’m lovable if I look perfect, act perfect, produce something perfect.” Katie: Wow. That makes so much sense. So, how can we, as parents, help kids not to internalize that or not to feel like they’re not worthy of love? Because certainly there are times there’s going to be people who have separations or divorce or who go through tough times and their kids are gonna have to go through those things too. Are there ways to help kids? Marisa: Yeah. Good question. This is so good for parents. So the best thing is to own it. You know, all parents, certainly me, I mean, I messed up many, many times. You know, I was a single parent with my own issues, of course, I shouted at my child and said things I should never have said that I will always regret. But it’s very hard to be a perfect parent. All you can do with your kids is go out and say, “You know what, darling? Mommy was not very nice today. Mommy loves you. Mommy’s…That was not your fault. Today mommy was cranky. Today mommy had a lot of worries and I shouldn’t have made you the butt of that.” And they do understand that. I used to say to my little girl, “You know, darling, today mommy had her period and she was a bit ratty.” And one day she said, “Mommy, I think my teacher had her period today because she was not very kind.” So she had it all worked out in her head because I would always apologize, “That was my fault. I shouldn’t have done that. I shouldn’t have reacted like that.” I may have…She said to me, she goes “Mommy, it doesn’t feel like you love me when you speak to me in that nasty voice.” Because I was saying, “Come on, hurry. I love you but you’ve gotta hurry up.” And they’re not silly children but they don’t expect you to be perfect, they just expect you to not put it on them to say, “That was my fault. You know, I have no right to shout at you as we’re running through the airport or running for the bus, or everything went wrong, I dropped the dinner, or I burned it, I smashed something, I shouldn’t turn around and scream at you because that wasn’t your fault. And even if it was, you know, you are just a kid if you broke something.” I mean, they do that. They get nail varnish on your carpet and do all kinds of things you prefer them not to do. But as long as you can own it and say, “I didn’t handle it very well today. I’m really sorry,” they like that because it allows them to understand that other people won’t handle it. The teacher may have a bad day, the friend…And, of course, kids take it out on each other too. They’re not averse to some kid picks up their toy truck, smacking them around the head with it. So they do understand that it isn’t all perfect Pollyanna. But apologizing to your child, owning and saying, “You didn’t deserve that. I was out of line. I shouldn’t have done that,” that makes them stop blaming themselves, which is the big thing you want to wire into children. That was my fault. You see, even children who get abused, that’s the heartbreaking thing, most pedophiles say to a child, “You wanted that. You know, when you were running around in your bikini or sashaying around in your nightie,” or you’re so pretty, or you’re so cute, you wanted that.” And they don’t understand how to say, “No, I didn’t,” because it’s very easy to make a child believe it’s their fault. And so you have to give your kids to go, “No, it’s not my fault. I didn’t cause that. I’m not to blame.” And also, when you can go to your child and say, “You know, today, daddy was really out of line and I behaved like a child. I lost my temper. I was a child. You were smarter than me today.” What that does is it allows them to go and say, “Mommy, I lost it, I acted out. I did something really wrong today,” because you’ve allowed them to see that they don’t have to be perfect and you’re not, then they can come to you and say… My daughter came home one day when she’s about 13 and said, “Mommy, I spoke terribly to my friend’s brother. He stole all these baseball hats in a shop and he gave me one and I didn’t want it. I didn’t know what to do.” And I say, “Well, that’s good that you told me.” And I’d always say, “You will never get punished for telling the truth ever, even if you do something really wrong.” And I said, “You know that feeling in your tummy, that’s a feeling that it’s not good and you just have to say to him, “No, thank you.” Or, you know, if he’s 15, you’re 11, and you feel embarrassed, then, you know, when you get home, you did the right thing, you said to mom, “I don’t want this baseball hat. I felt really bad accepting it.” So the more you can allow them to see that they don’t have to be perfect comes from you owning your mistakes and not trying to be perfect. And the worst thing is when parents say, “Don’t you answer back. Don’t you have an opinion. Don’t shout. Don’t cry. I’ll give you something to cry about.” That’s very confusing for a child. You get angry when they’re angry. And they get punished for being angry, but you’re allowed to be angry. So that’s really confusing for them. And let them have an opinion because when they get to 14 or 15, you know, you want your kids to be able to have an opinion against a bully or somebody who’s gonna pressurize them to have sex or drink or smoke. But if you never let them have an opinion with you, then how are they ever going to do that? You’re the first person they’re going to learn to debate and argue with. Katie: That is such a great point. It’s one I’ve definitely not done perfectly, but I have tried to do. My oldest is now 14. And even from the time he was little, I would encourage them to ask questions. And I remember when he was really little, maybe like 3, I said, “You know, always ask questions if you’re curious. And if you don’t understand something or something doesn’t make sense, always question it.” And he said, “Even you?” And I said, “Even and especially me because I’m here to help you learn.” But I think you’re right, so often that gets suppressed with kids. And it’s been amazing to watch him now, largely, even though he’s 14, like an adult at this point, and how responsible he is and to see our relationship shift. And like I said, I don’t think I’ve done it perfectly by any means but that’s something I’m glad I did from a very young age with them. And another thing I’ve tried to always say to them every day, I have six kids, so I say it a lot but that, “I love you unconditionally. There’s nothing you can ever do to reduce that and there’s nothing you can ever do or need to do to increase that either.” Because I feel like I didn’t get that second part very much as a kid. I knew that my parents loved me but I always felt like I had to earn approval or that it was tied to my achievements. And I wanted to, hopefully, help my kids know that they never had to earn that, that it would always be there. Marisa: And it’s such a beautiful thing because, you know, so many adults have this belief, I need to earn love. I need to work for love. I need to chase love. I need to be really good. I need to have things snipped off or injected in and I need to, you know, add stuff to myself. And that just isn’t true. Love is just there and you don’t have to earn it, work for it, or run after it. And so saying to a child, “You know, I love you and you don’t ever have to earn my love and there’s nothing you could do to make me love you more and there’s nothing you can do to make me love you less. If you mess up, you know, I won’t be pleased but I’ll be there.” Because, you know, some parents say to their kids, “If you get pregnant, don’t ever come home. If you take drugs, you’re out of this house.” And they say it to scare them but imagine if your child of 14 takes drugs and feels they can never come home, then where do you think they’re going to go? It’s much better for you to say, “I don’t want you to take drugs, I don’t want you to get pregnant, but whatever is going on, you will never get punished for telling the truth.” And I remember my little girl when she was little said, “Mommy, I’ve got green nail varnish all over the carpet and I know you won’t punish me because I just told you the truth.” And I said, “Well, I’m very upset you did that, but I won’t.” And she said, “Mommy, it’s such a relief. I’ve been so scared to tell you.” But I knew in that moment it was a test. Should I get really angry or shall I do…? I gave her my word, you will never be punished for telling the truth. And, you know, all kids do crazy things. And you can’t always stop them, but you can be there to mop them up. And, you know, I had my daughter’s friends turning up at my house, having been thrown out of their own house because their mother found contraception in their bag or in one case the morning after pill. And you have to be a safe place for your children when they’re going through rough times because the last thing you want is them to go to someone else’s house because they can’t talk to you. Katie: Yeah, that’s such a good point. We’ve kind of become that place for a lot of my kids’ friends as well and I’m so grateful to be that place. I’d always said when they were young, I hope to be the place where all the kids feel comfortable coming to hang out and that they also feel like they can talk to me. But it does make me sad as well when kids will talk to me, but not their own parents. And I always try to encourage them to open the lines of communication with their parents. Marisa: Of course. And so many of them are just so scared of being judged. I mean, you know, I work with infertility a lot and I always take people back to why they can’t conceive. And you’d be amazed at how many women go back to this classic scene, “I’m 15 or 14 and I think I’m pregnant. My dad will absolutely kill me. My parents will be furious. They’ll disown me. They’ll kick me out of the house or they’ll be so upset I’ve let them down.” And that doubt they have with themselves, “This is the worst thing ever, this is a nightmare, this is a disaster, this is shame,” that feeling of horror they feel thinking they’re pregnant becomes the first block. The mind says, “Oh, you don’t wanna have a baby.” And 15 years later, when they’re happily married to some great guy, the mind is still acting off this old belief it would be a nightmare, a disaster, the worst thing ever to have a baby. Because the mind is always listening. Every word you say is picked up by the mind. And unexplained infertility is a fascinating thing because it’s unexplainable. Explainable infertility means, well, your fallopian tubes are blocked. You haven’t got any eggs, your womb lining is too thin, your husband’s sperm swims backwards and there’s not much of it. But unexplained means everything is perfect but you have some blocking belief. And it always often starts at the first thoughts you have about having a baby. Having a baby when we’re teenagers or we’re not married or even beyond that, “Oh, this boy is gonna reject me now. He’ll think I’ve trapped him. It’s a sense of shame. I don’t want this at this time in my life.” Because the mind is always listening and the words we form, a blueprint that we react to 15 years after the event has come and gone. Katie: Wow. That’s really drastic. And okay, so you said the second step is that you remove these pain points or you remove these blocks. Can you walk us through just a high level of how that happens or how you do that? Marisa: Yeah. So, I’ll give you a very good example, I was thinking about a particular client. So I had a particular client, who’s an Arabic girl, very nice, came from a very religious family, where the father’s word was everything. And she was dating a white boy and thought she was pregnant. And of course, her parents would have just been horrified. It would have been awful. And so when she thought she was pregnant, she went into absolute terror, and stress, and anxiety, and in the end, arranged privately to have a termination they never knew about and carried all the guilt about that. And now, 15 years later, she’s 30-something, she’s got a lovely husband from the same Arabic like her, parents adore him, adore her, long need to be grandparents, but she can’t get pregnant because of this memory. So, the first thing we do is go back, people don’t always know about the moment, we go back to why? Let’s find out why you can’t conceive, up comes this memory. And when she describes it, she’s crying, her lip’s trembling. She’s really feeling the terror, the shame, the anxiety, the stress, the worry, the uncertainty, and then more shame after she has this termination, the fear that when they find out, they’ll disown her because she’s no longer this perfect little girl that they think she is. And now, we go to 15 years later where she’s got a lovely husband and her parents will be running up and down the ward elated when they know she’s having a baby. It will be their much-wanted grandson or grandchild. So, to separate it, I make my client say, “That’s not me. That girl of 15 who’s crying and going up to London to have a secret termination and has got secret papers, that’s not me. If I say to my parents, ‘Oh, I’m pregnant,’ they will be crying with happiness, it’s all they want.” So it’s the ability just separate then from now. Yes, when that was me, I was 15 and I did some silly things but I had only been on the planet for 15 years. I didn’t know then what I know now. I was acting with a life experience of a 15-year-old, very different to a 32-year-old. It’s not me. So, you have to look at the scene then and the scene now and see the difference because most people look at the scene and they see the comparison. You see, I wasn’t loved when I was 2 and here I am, I’m 32 and I still can’t find love. Every guy I meet dumps me. Everything goes wrong. So, a lot of people look at how it’s the same. I was stupid at school, I still feel stupid. I felt ugly at school, I still feel ugly. I wasn’t the smartest kid and now I’m scared to ask for something because I don’t feel smart. And it’s very important to not look at what is the same but to look at what is the difference because that’s another rule of your mind, whatever you look for, you can find. So, they have to go through this first thing, that is not me because, and that can’t be me because, and that will never be me ever again because…And once they’ve been able to really identify what is different rather than what is the same, they’re ready to go on to the final step, which is convincing the mind that in her case, she’s ready to have a baby, that she’s gonna be an amazing mother, that everything is perfect. And she couldn’t have been an amazing mother at 15 but she can be an amazing mother today. So, it’s looking at what’s different, making sense of it, and then becoming free of it. And all of those things are, kind of, equally important. Katie: How does a person start to go about that? Like, you call it coding, giving a new software. I also think of this in relation to the earlier question of programming our kids, hopefully, in a good way, and you’ve given some great tips for that. But once a person recognizes the problem and they know what the pain point is to remove, what does that look like to rewire or recode the brain and how long does that process take? Marisa: I mean, it can be almost immediate. The only reason I call it coding is people…you know, we live in a…We use the word, like, hacks, and you could call it something else, like having a conditioning recording. I’ve got a hypnotic conditioning audio to play. But you see, if your computer has a bug, you know that the computer has slowed down. And then when you take it to somewhere, they take out the bug, they put in your software, they upgrade it really, and then it works perfectly. And rather like a computer, we get bugs in our thinking that slow us down, dim our potential, dim our light. And just like the best software person, we just have to take those bugs out and upgrade our own thinking. And so, upgrading your thinking really works like this. You need to look at the thoughts you think. For example, “I don’t feel good enough. I don’t feel important enough. I think I don’t matter.” Where does that come from? Without a doubt, a little child. Well, why did you think those thoughts? Well, because my mom said she wanted a boy and I was the third girl or she didn’t really want to have a baby or, you know, my dad left her and it ruined her life. And so, I thought these beliefs that I didn’t matter but I was 4 years old, I came to conclusions when I’d been on the planet for four years. And that’s okay because any kid at 4 would have thought what I thought but now I’m 44, it will never again be relevant or necessary, appropriate. It wouldn’t even be interesting to think what I thought when I was 4. So that’s how you start to change the software. You say, “I thought that when I was 4…” It’s a bit like if I went to the store with my mother when I was 4 and I got lost in the shop, I probably would have wet my pants and cried. But at 32, I’d sit down and wait for her to page me or I’d call her on the mobile. You know, I’ve never lost my daughter in an airport but I remember being in an airport, funny enough it was in Florida, and I see this little boy in the plane, and he walked past me on his own, and I grabbed his hand and said, “Stay with me.” And about five minutes, this mom came running around the corner hysterical, and she recognized, she said “Thank you so much for holding onto him.” And for her it was terror. But imagine 20 years pass and she’s at the airport with that little boy of 2 and she loses him, she’s not gonna cry or run around the airport hysterical. So she’s gonna page him or call him or say, “Well, I’ll just go to the gate because he knows which plane we’re getting so I’m sure he’ll make his own way to the gate,” which they do. So, the belief that if you lost your mother at 17 and you cry hysterically, just like you would at 2, is something nobody would do. And you just tell these stories to recognize that how you behave at 2 is called age-appropriate. It’s the end of the world when your mom shouts at you or screams at you. And I remember coming out of the store not long ago and I saw something, I really hate to see this but I’ve seen it a little bit, which is a mother pretending to leave her kid in the car park and drive off without him. First of all, it was so dangerous because she just drove away and he was screaming. She knew she was coming back but she was playing a game and he had no idea what the rules of the game were, which is I stand on the pavement and cry, you come back, I get in the car, and I promise never to do that again. But I don’t understand this game because I’m only 2, and it’s not a game to me, “My mom is leaving me forever because she doesn’t like me because I’m not good.” And so, these are the rules that we expect children to play and they don’t understand the rules. And so, now, all these years later is this 2-year-old kid who was left in the store still has this belief, “Well, my wife will leave if I’m not good. My friends will leave if I’m not good. I’ve gotta be good all the time because if I’m not good, people just abandon me.” And so that’s the difference that what we feel when we’re 2, we suffer when we’re 32 because we still don’t quite understand the rules. And that’s why we shouldn’t play games with other people. We should be very honest. Never threaten to leave a relationship unless you really want to leave. Don’t go, “Well, I’ll walk out if you do that. I’m leaving if you do that. I’m off if you do that.” Because it’s so unfair. You know, I mean, I love my husband, he loves me, we have issues, but I would never, ever say, “If you do that, I’m off.” Because I’ve seen too many people do that to their children and indeed, to their partners, when, you know, they even pack the case and walk out of the door when they have no intention of leaving them. But the pain they cause other people who don’t understand the rules is very unfair. Katie: That’s such a clear way of explaining it. And especially with kids, I mean, I think that analogy is perfect and really, really important. And I also think, like, this is something I’ve noticed in my life, and I’m probably still working on, is I for a long time felt like I needed to, like, do everything for everyone else all the time and I would go out of my way to help people or to get things for people. And I don’t think that was inherently a bad thing but I can also recognize that it largely came from that idea that I wasn’t lovable or good enough on my own, and so that I was only valued for what I did for other people or my achievements. And so even if the actions themselves were good, maybe the motivation behind them wasn’t quite so healthy. And I love that quote that, “Whatever you look for, you’ll find.” And I think of that in our relationships or any interaction, I heard it explained one time, you know, if you have the idea that you’re not likable, you’re gonna find proof of that in all of your interactions. It might be the way someone looks at you, whether they don’t respond quickly enough, or whatever it may be, when really, the reality of that might be that they have something else going on, or they’re busy, or it has nothing to do with you at all. But when we look for that, we’re gonna find it. And I guess I, kind of, relate that to that we’ve become what we think about and the question that we ask ourselves. Like, as an example of my own life, when my internal questions used to be like, why can’t I lose weight, why is this so hard for me, my brain would answer those questions with all of the ways I couldn’t lose weight and why it was so hard. And when I shifted my thinking and stopped asking those questions and started asking better questions, it became so much easier to do that. Is that, kind of, the same idea as this is like retraining those patterns and questions internally? Marisa: Your mind will answer any question you give it. So, why can’t I find anything? Well, because I’ve got a memory like a sieve. You have to ask a different question. How can I always find where things are? So, if you give your mind a better question, what could I do to have the body I want? What could I do to have the love I want or the family life? What could I do? Your mind will go ahead and find something real. If you say why do my relationships always go wrong, it will just look for something random like, “Well, you’re not lovable enough.” So you gotta be very clear with how you…again, it’s the computer…you have to ask your mind very, very specific questions. If you’re searching on Google, you’re asking a question, you know, for instance, I was looking at Google yesterday to see which countries are now shutting out the U.K. because of this virus. But I was getting answers from May because I hadn’t put in the date in December. So that’s a silly thing. But when you ask a question on Google, if you don’t put in exactly the date you’re looking for the question, you’ll get the right answer, but from three years ago. And often we do this, “Oh, you know, I’ve just realized this article is out of date.” But it’s very much the same thing with your mind when you ask it questions. Make sure it understands the question so clearly. So here’s a question, I want love. Well, okay, you want love but do you want it for an hour? Do you want it for an evening? Do you want it for the rest of your life? You gotta be really clear, what kind of love do you want? You know, a night of passion or something different? I want money. Well, how much money do you want and how do you want to get that money? Do you want to earn it by doing something amazing that will make you feel you’re doing good in the world, you can earn money while you sleep, or do you want to get money by any means necessary? So, our mind will always answer questions, but we have to be careful to give it the right questions that it can answer for us because it will be our ally and our best friend. And we’re so much wanting to get what we want when we ask the mind in a much more specific way. Katie: And you have programs very specific to this. Can you talk a little bit about that and how people can find those and know which one that they should start with? Marisa: Sure. Well, we have a lot of programs free. If you go to marisapeer.com, we have audios on wealth wiring, love wiring. So we have audios that are designed to locate and then dismantle your money blocks or love blocks or health blocks or success blocks. So there’s plenty of those. They’re all completely free. We don’t ask for your card. You can just take those. So if you want some free stuff to help you be the best you can be, go to marisapeer.com. If you want to learn how to do RTT, it is an amazing therapy. It really is taking the world by storm. It’s won so many awards. And you don’t have to have any background in therapy to train with us. If you want to know how to do what I do, go to rtt.com. Indeed, you can find there how to work with someone like me in your area because we train people all over the world. And if you want to just really work on joining the “I am Enough” movement, knowing how to put that in your life, we have fridge magnets, little bracelets, and all kinds of things that we give away over on iamenough.com. So iamenough.com, marisapeer.com, rtt.com, take your pick. But do join the “I am Enough” movement, even if it just means that you are writing on your fridge in fridge magnets, saying it when you clean your teeth, writing it on your mirror in liner or marker pen. I really recommend that small statement can be absolutely life-changing and is to so many people. Katie: Yeah, and we’ve incorporated that in our house. We’ve been building out what I call a culture wall in our hallway. And it has a lot of our family mottos like, “You were made to do hard things,” and, “Happiness is a choice and a skill,” and, “Ask hard questions,” things like that. And that’s one that we’re adding as well is, “I am enough,” so the kids see it every day. That’s been a fun project to work on together as a family. And I’ll make sure I link to the show notes at wellnessmama.fm to all of the programs that you’ve mentioned and to all of those websites so people can find those and keep learning from you. Today’s podcast is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals. They’re a company I love and they’re on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet with clean, effective products that really work. They have a whole hive of products packed with immune-loving essentials to help you feel great every day. I love their B.LXR. You might have even heard me talk about this before because it’s a natural energy and focus product that really, really works for me. You can get focused and find your flow for all of your work-related resolutions, and it helps really just bust right through brain fog naturally. It’s a little tiny shot you can take first thing in the morning to stay energized and focused all day long. 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Use the code VALENTINE to save 14% and don’t forget to tag us with your photo so we can share you on social media. Another question I’d love to ask toward the end of interviews is, other than your own, if there is a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life, and if so what they are and why? Marisa: Gosh, so many books. That’s a hard thing to pick. Well, and actually, I remember when I was a kid, I read “Tess of the d’Urbervilles” by Thomas Hardy. He was my favorite writer. And I loved that because he was describing this girl and he said, “You know, her eyes are not blue or brown and her lips are lopsided and wonky. And her imperfections made her perfect.” And I love “Jane Eyre” because I loved that quote when she says, “You know, I’m small and plain but I feel in love and passion just as if I was tall and beautiful.” And so, I love quotes from books. And Thomas Hardy wrote about this girl and he said, “She was a little more sinned against than sinning.” And I thought that was such a beautiful quote. But my favorite quote, which comes from a medical doctor’s book is this, “It’s the feeling that cannot find its expression in tears and will cause other organs to weep.” And so I read his book, I was at Maudsley Hospital, and that was a guy called Henry Maudsley, who was an eminent psychiatrist. And I was looking in his diaries, and there was that quote, and that was probably the best book I’ve ever read because he just nailed that in one with that amazing moving expression. If we all could know that, because what he’s saying is something and I say to people, and I say, “Look, you can choose to speak about yourself however you like. It’s free. You can choose to be super negative.” Like, you’re saying to your children, happiness is a choice. There’s no terminal you arrive at called happiness. It’s the journey you’re on every day. So you can choose to be negative or you can choose to be happy but what you can’t choose is what you do to your body when you’re negative. If you could look in your body and see what you do to it when you’re negative, you would stop thinking negative thoughts because they have to come out somewhere, and they come out in asthma, and eczema, and dermatitis, and nervous habits. And so I love books, all books that show people that, you know, your word is everything. I say to my clients, “If I could say abracadabra and you tell me what you want, I’m gonna do my very best to give you what you want.” And then I discovered after me saying that word for years that abracadabra is Hebrew for “my words create,” as I speak, I create. And I didn’t even know that but I’ve been using that word for years and years and then I realized what I was saying. So I love all books that have the magic of words and quotes. And even Roald Dahl who you all know as a children’s writer said, “The thing that makes you beautiful is kindness. If you’re a kind person, you’ll be beautiful, and if you’re not kind, you won’t be beautiful.” And he also said, “Only those who believe in magic get to see it and experience it.” And I love that because it’s so true. Katie: Such beautiful quotes. I really love that one, “The feeling that cannot find its expression in tears may cause other organs to weep.” And that speaks to a lot of the things you mentioned in this of how those things can physically express in the body and reminds me also of the book, “The Body Keeps The Score” and how… Marisa: Oh yes, I love that book, “Body Keeps Score,” and I love also “Feelings Buried Alive Never Die.” And another great book called “It’s All in Your Head.” Katie: I am writing these down. I’m gonna…The two you just recommended, those

Are you a history buff? Do you love spending time in nature? Then this episode is for you! I’m here with Arthur Haines, who is a forager and ancestral skills educator, an author, and a botanical researcher. He lives in Maine, where he’s known for his knowledge about things like tracking, foraging, wild plants, and ancestral practices. Obviously, most of us are not going to go back to a hunter-gatherer type existence and live in the woods. (Well… maybe my husband would!) Still, understanding how our ancestors lived sheds light on modern life and why our biology is wired the way it is. We also go pretty deep on the idea of ancestral parenting, and how these tribes interacted with their children in such a different way. I just love how unique this conversation is. Chime in with your thoughts in the comments! Episode Highlights With Arthur Haines Commonalities of indigenous people when it comes to nutrition Why indigenous tribes were omnivorous The reason all tribes traditionally consumed cooked and uncooked foods What we can learn from indigenous people about sleep (it’s more than just light) How position and temperature impact sleep and how to hack this for maximum benefit What we can learn about movement patterns from history and biology The dramatic lessons we can learn about community and parenting from these communities How sovereign even small children were in previous tribes and generations Important ways to respect a child’s autonomy Why these tribes didn’t have formal education and what we can learn from this Top lessons we can learn from biological norms and how to implement them How to 80/20 what we know of optimal biology And more! Resources We Mention Arthur Haines Chili Pad Sleep System A New Path: To Transcend the Great Forgetting Through Incorporating Ancestral Practices into Contemporary Living by Arthur Haines Ancestral Plants Volume 1: A Primitive Skills Guide To Important Edible, Medicinal, and Useful Plants of the Northeast (Ancestral Plants Volume 2) by Arthur Haines New England Wild Flower Society’s Flora Novae Angliae by Arthur Haines The Tracker by Tom Brown Sleeping Positions Article More From Wellness Mama 236: Facts vs. Myths About Blue Zones & Ways to Increase Longevity 163: Fascinating Fungi & How to Use Medicinal Mushrooms With Tero Isokauppila 133: GMOs, Glyphosate, Organic Food & What’s Making Our Children Sick The Neuroscience of Play & Why Kids Need It Why to Plant a Butterfly Garden (& How) It’s Time to Bring Back Victory Gardens Ecotherapy: The Health Benefits of Nature Backyard Farming: How to Homestead in the City Why to Try Forest Bathing to Decrease Anxiety, Depression, and Inflammation 5 Backyard Herbal Remedies to Harvest Yourself Have you tried foraging? Why or why not? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Olipop… delicious soda that is actually good for you. Did you know that most Americans consume more than the recommended daily intake of sugar, by a lot? And sweetened drinks like soda are the leading source of extra sugar. And most of us also don’t get enough fiber! I’ve found a delicious answer to both of these problems and it’s called Olipop. I was so excited to find a truly healthy soda alternative! Olipop uses functional ingredients that combine the benefits of prebiotics, plant fiber and botanicals to support your microbiome and benefit digestive health… and that tastes just like soda without the junk! Olipop is much (much) lower in sugar than conventional sodas with only 2-5 grams of sugar from natural sources. Their Vintage Cola has just two grams of sugar as compared to a regular cola which has 39g of sugar. We’ve worked out an exclusive deal for the Wellness Mama podcast listeners. Receive 20% off plus Free Shipping on their best selling variety pack. This is a great way to try all of their delicious flavors. Go to drinkolipop.com/wellnessmama or use code WELLNESSMAMA at checkout to claim this deal. This discount is only valid for their variety pack. Olipop can also be found in over 3,000 stores across the country, including Whole Foods, Sprouts, Kroger, Wegman’s and Erewhon. This episode is brought to you by Wellnesse. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end, my new company. We make personal care products that go above and beyond just non-toxic to actually be beneficial for you from the outside in. I realized years ago that even some of my most naturally minded friends and family members who made an effort to eat organic food and be really cognizant of what they brought into their homes were still using certain personal care products, mainly hair care and oral care. And the reason was, they weren’t willing to sacrifice how they looked and felt just to use natural products. And none of the natural products they were finding really lived up to the conventional products as far as how effective they were. So, I resolved to change this and realized I had things that I’ve been making in my kitchen for years that worked just as well and that I could share with other families, and thus Wellnesse was born. You’ve probably heard that what goes on our body gets into our body and that many of the chemicals we encounter end up in our bloodstream. To me, this means non-toxic and safe should be the absolute bare minimum baseline for any products that are in our lives. But I wanted to take it a step further. I wanted it to use this to our advantage to actually put beneficial ingredients in our hair care, toothpaste, personal care products so that we could benefit our body from the outside in. Why not use that wonderful skin barrier to our advantage? Our hair care is packed with ingredients like nettle, which helps hair get thicker over time. Our dry shampoo has scalp promoting products that really help follicles stay strong. And our toothpaste, for instance, has a naturally occurring mineral called hydroxyapatite, which is the exact mineral that’s on our teeth that’s present in strong enamel. So they’re all designed to work with the body, not against it to help you have stronger, healthier hair and teeth. We now have a hand sanitizer that doesn’t dry out your hands like many hand sanitizers do. I would be honored if you would check it out and I would love to hear your feedback. You can find all of our products at wellnesse.com. Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the end. Make sure to check out. It’s my new line of good for you from the outside in personal care products like shampoo, conditioner, dry shampoo, and toothpaste. This episode goes into a really fun topic I had not talked much about. I’m here with Arthur Haines, who is a forager and ancestral skills educator, an author, and a botanical researcher. And he lives in Maine and he’s well-known for his knowledge about things like tracking, foraging, wild plants, and ancestral practices. And the reason I was really curious to have him on was to talk about basically what we can learn from different tribes around the world, from our ancestors, what commonalities they have, and how to apply these to modern life, even without… Obviously, most of us are not going to go back to a hunter-gatherer type existence and live in the woods, although he mimics many of these things in his modern life. But we go deep on how we can kind of 80/20 this idea and apply some of these benefits that are built into our biology and our biological norms into the modern life to get the benefit. We also go pretty deep on the idea of ancestral parenting, and how these tribes interacted with their children in a way that’s so different from how we interact with ours, and what we can learn from this. Overall, a very, very fascinating episode. I took a lot of notes and have some things that I will implement in my own life now moving forward. I think you’ll really get a lot out of this one as well. So, let’s jump in. Arthur, welcome. Thanks so much for being here. Arthur: Thanks, Katie, for inviting me onto your podcast. Katie: I’m so excited to chat with you. This is definitely a topic I haven’t talked much about yet. And I think it’s one that’s becoming increasingly important. And this is kind of the idea of a return to nature, but in a different way than a lot of people, I think, often think of it. And we have so many directions I wanna go today. But first, since this is a new topic, and people may not be familiar with your work already, I’d love to hear a little bit of your background and how you basically got into this world and became a world-renowned expert. Arthur: Well, it’s a long story. So I’ll try to make it really short. I was really fortunate, Katie, to grow up in a rural and wilderness part of Western Maine. It’s a mountainous area where the Appalachian Trail passes through, just to give some setting. And I’ve been fortunate to always have kind of, you know, exposure to nature and a connection to the forest and the rivers here since early childhood. But as I went through my, you know, college study, wildlife biologist and, you know, a plant taxonomist, which is somebody who studies the identification and classification of plants, I found that I could use those skills for some really cool things, which includes foraging, you know, for edible plants and also for herbalism. And that’s probably what many people know me as, as a forager and to some degree, as someone who promotes natural remedies, rather than potentially harmful and really strong Western medicines that sometimes aren’t necessary for some of the elements that we might be dealing with in the home. And yeah, I became kind of known as that, and then went on to try to help people to understand basically, that humans do have biological norms. You know, we could get into discussing nutrition, or sleep patterns, movement, communal experiences, I mean, even childcare patterns are different with what we see around the world with our hunter-gatherer ancestors, than often what we observe here in, say, an industrialized society. And so, that’s probably one of my favorite topics to help people understand is that anytime we try to transcend what it means to be human, that sometimes there are consequences or pitfalls that we have to be aware of and try to navigate. Katie: That’s so fascinating. And definitely, I wanna loop back to those biological norms. But I love that you mentioned foraging and kind of the idea of wildcrafting because I have a lot of natural remedies on “Wellness Mama” that had been there for years. And a lot of people listening are very much knowledgeable about natural remedies. And that’s gonna be their first line of defense in most situations. But I think the idea of foraging wildcrafting takes it to such a new level. And it’s so fascinating. And it admittedly is an area I don’t even know that much about. Is there a good starting place, whether it’s on your website or resources that you could mention for us to start learning about how to forage in our own individual areas? Arthur: Yeah, I think there are some really nice places to start. And I think for most people, you know, especially given that a lot of the United States population do live in urban and suburban areas, we didn’t get a chance to necessarily interact with these things on a daily basis throughout our life. And so we have some concerns about making sure that we’re gathering, you know, the correct things so that we’re not potentially bringing something toxic into the house. And I understand those concerns. And so, the identification of the plants becomes really important. Anything that you’re going to ingest, you have to know what it is. And so you wanna make sure that you’re dealing with people, whether you’re dealing with a forager or an herbalist who promotes wild gathering, somebody who does have high competency in identification, so they can just make sure that you know exactly which species you’re gathering for your home. Of course, I don’t wanna just self-promote entirely here. I do have a set of books called “Ancestral Plants” that do focus on the identification and then how these plants can be used for food, for medicine, and utility. There’s a lot of foragers that I really love and respect around the country. Sam Fair is another one who has a series of books. And he does a very good job as well with the identification so that you’re able to, again, just have confidence that you know what species you’re looking at because that’s really critical. If you’re nervous about gathering these potentially, you know, these plants that you wanna use as food or as medicine, it’s gonna be a major obstacle for you. And I’m really a big proponent of getting rid of those kind of psychological obstacles so that people are free to really dive into these very deeply nutritious foods. Katie: I love that. I think people often don’t even think of that in today’s world, that there are still places and ways to do this in our own areas. And like a lot of people listening have gardens or have found some ways to have local food. But I feel like there’s a whole different element of this when it comes to wild food. So for people who are, this is a new concept to, how can we start incorporating more of that into our daily lives, especially those of us who come from a totally different paradigm and have to return to that? Arthur: Well, there’s a couple of things there for me, Katie, that I feel are really important. One is people have to know where they can go to access these. And sometimes the very weeds that grow in our garden are a source of wild plants that we sometimes are removing when, in fact, they’re a great contribution to the kitchen table. But I also think of the inspiration as being really important. If people simply consider wild plants and cultivated plants as one and the same, there’s not always the impetus, if you will, to say, “Well, why should I bother going and getting those plants, you know, from the field, from the forest, from the lakeshore, from the parks that allow gathering because I can simply get them at the farmers market, you know, or the supermarket?” But the really interesting thing that I think your listeners will be, you know, quite keen on is the fact that wild plants, now there’s a huge body of literature demonstrating that they are in fact more nutritious than most of the cultivated fruits that we, you know, commonly have on the table. Now, this is not to claim that conscientiously raised produce isn’t healthy. It’s just that the wild plants often have even greater mineral content, a much greater amount of beneficial phytochemicals that can function as, you know, immune modulators, anti-inflammatories, antioxidants, and so on. They often have a more beneficial fatty acid ratio, speaking about, you know, Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratios. And we also have things that have more fiber and less simple sugars frequently. And so, you end up with these foods that are, again, deeply nutritious and also what our bodies are evolved to eating. So for me, a starting point is often getting people to have a greater level of inspiration for why these foods should be on the table, especially when it comes to developing humans in our home. Anytime that we have gatherings or meetings and things of that nature, where we have a group of people over in here, it’s always the children and the moms who are breastfeeding that get to go first. They’re the ones who get the big portions because they’re the ones who are most in need of that nutrition for their developing bodies. Katie: That’s so fascinating. And you mentioned biological norms that come from all of these years and years and years of history. And I’d love to kind of delve into those point by point because I think there’s so much confusion and so many different ideas and options about how we should be eating in the modern world. And a lot of it tends to get extremely dogmatic in one direction or another. And so I’d love to really explore, you know, what is nature? What do our bodies tell us about these biological norms about being human and what can we learn from that? So you mentioned the different areas, nutrition, sleep, movement, community, and child care. Let’s kind of take them one by one. So, like, what does nature teach us about the biological norms of nutrition and what can we learn from that? Arthur: Sure. There’s a long list if we wanted to get into it. Maybe it’d be good for me just to share a few examples. When we look at hunter-gatherers around the world, I think often people focus on the differences in, say, how the far northern peoples like the Inuits eat, versus, you know, say people who are closer to the equator. And, you know, you might see just very different individual foods, individual plants, and animal species that are being eaten. But when we collect all of this information from around the world, there’s actually remarkable similarities amongst all of these groups. You know, for example, one of the really pertinent ones is that every group that has ever been observed of, you know, indigenous peoples, again, what we all hail from, what we all have an evolutionary history as being, we’re all omnivorous, consuming both plant and animal foods. And this is not to be a judgment against people that wanna practice, you know, an all carnivorous or an all plant-based diet, but that we come from people that ate and received the benefits from both plants and animals. So it’s important to know that going forward, so, again, you can recognize the pitfalls that may be coming with a specialized type of diet that’s completely new to us. Another example, you look at indigenous people around the world, and they ate a mix of both cooked and uncooked foods. Nowhere in the world did they consume exclusively raw food, and likewise, nowhere in the world did they consume exclusively cooked foods. And we know that, you know, from more modern-day nutritional studies, that there are certain vitamins that are simply unharmed by heat. There are certain vitamins that are harmed by heat and are best to get through raw foods. Vitamin C could be an example. And we know that there are some nutrients that are really beneficial to us, that are actually made more bioavailable by cooking, like the lycopene that we can get in tomatoes, watermelons, rose hips, and autumn olives, and things like that. So, you know, another similarity might be the diversity of food. You know, even in the High Arctic, the Iñupiat people who were studied in a really wonderful work called Plants That We Eat, were shown to consume a greater diversity of plants from their landscape, even though they have fewer species to select from than most Americans consume in a year. And so that food diversity was really important because all of these different plants, for example, from all of these different plant families offer differing amounts of various things. So, this one’s offering more of this macronutrient. This one’s more of that micronutrient, more minerals here, more of this type of plant compound there. And so, in the end, their bodies were able to get all of the things that they required for healthy living, especially for passing on health through the generations because of that food diversity. And that’s something that’s often lacking in the American diet. But these are just some of the examples of where we come from as a species and how we need to try to mimic those in today’s world, to make sure that we, again, have healthy living. Katie: That makes sense. That’s so interesting, too. And I think there’s so much to be learned in a lot of areas when we focus on the similarities and not the difference. But it seems so much human nature to focus on that, like, 3% to 7% that we disagree on often versus the things we agree on. Arthur: Yes. Katie: Another area you mentioned was sleep. And I think… I’m sure there’s so much to learn here because I’ve talked about blue light, for instance, and avoiding artificial light in the evenings, as well as things like the really dramatic research on morning light exposure and getting outside, and even if it’s a cloudy day, but just that morning light exposure and just how profoundly that affects hormones. So my guess is if those types of little changes can have such a measurable hormone difference, that there’s more that we can learn from nature when it comes to sleep patterns. So, based on your research and your work, what can we learn from indigenous tribes and from history when it comes to improving sleep? Arthur: Well, I think, Katie, you’ve hit some of the really important things there, the recognition… You know, there was a time when people thought blue light was bad because it’s what stimulates alertness in the evening, but like you talked about those early morning exposures to, you know, natural lighting, where that stimulates alertness, which is what you want. Your body needs those benchmarks to understand, “This is when I’m awake and this is when I go to sleep,” you know, understanding that if you need to be active, you know, in the dark hours, that going for those wavelengths of light that are closer to the firelight, you know, those reds, and oranges, and yellows, they stimulate alertness much less so that you can get back to sleep. I’m somebody who tries to follow a lot of these different ancestral patterns. And boy, when I visit someone else’s home now, where there’s all kinds of electronics and gadgets, they’re up late, they’re looking at screens that haven’t been adjusted, you know, toward those red and orange wavelengths, I’d literally never get back to sleep that night. I’m really disrupted by it now. I don’t have much, you know, ability to tolerate it. I think there’s more than just light that goes on with these sleep patterns. There’s even the positions that were used by indigenous people that promoted a flexibility while they slept. And, you know, one of the areas that I like to share with people is the temperature because if you look at essentially, you know, around the world, through a lot of the season, if not the entire season, the temperature goes down in the evening. And that turns out to be another one of those things that our bodies can clue into, to help promote good sleep. So, I’ve had mothers who were having a really difficult time with their infants and getting them to go to sleep. And part of the problem was both not getting enough outdoor time so that their infants were getting exposed to that full spectrum of light, that was saying, “Oh, I’m supposed to be awake right now.” But then, even though they were trying to create a dark environment at night, the house may have been too warm. And by getting them to just turn that temperature down a bit, to start stimulating those kind of evening preparation for the body, they were able to promote a little bit better sleep in their infant, which obviously helped them sleep a lot better. So the study of the indigenous give us all a whole spectrum of things to focus on that goes beyond, you know, some of the really important things that, like you mentioned, the light that we’re exposed to, but even like when we eat at night and the temperature, and so on. Katie: That’s fascinating. I know it’s not the same as being outdoors but I’ve become a big fan of chiliPAD for that reason of being able to cool the sleep environment. Arthur: Oh, yes. Yes. Katie: Yeah. And I think that’s the beauty of this is… And from what I know of your approach, it’s like, it’s not that we are all gonna be able to go back to a time of living entirely in nature, but it’s to as much degree possible that we can do that and benefit from it, and then also be able to use some of the benefits of the modern world as well to get the same benefit or at least some of the same benefit. That’s really fascinating, too. Okay. So you mentioned position. Can you go a little bit deeper on that? Like, what can we learn on the best way about sleep posture? Arthur: Well, there’s an article that I have that perhaps I could forward to you but it shows some various positions that I really don’t see people sleeping in very frequently, that help with the spine, essentially, and making sure that it’s not just tightening over the night, that it’s getting a bit of traction if you will. It’s really interesting. It’s a fairly short article. But again, it looks at essentially not even just wild humans, but other wild beings and the positions that they sleep in and how they can promote healthy spines. And I can try to forward this along to you that might be useful to kind of thing, Katie, that’s really, very visual and difficult for me to describe in words alone. Katie: Yeah, that would be great. And I can include that in the show notes for everybody listening at wellnessmama.fm. It’s so fascinating. I know I saw a study a while back about how even just one week of camping away from artificial light and being in nature, it had the ability to totally reset someone’s circadian biology, which I think, like, it’s so fascinating that even just such a short amount of time can have such a drastic impact. And I think that’s really telling of how we can use some of these things to our advantage, even if we can’t do all of them every day, kind of being able to 80/20 and get the benefit even in modern life. And you mentioned sleep position. But also in your biological norms list, you mentioned movement. And we know this is an area that’s a fall down point for a lot of the modern world and a lot of us are just not moving enough or we’re doing the same movement patterns repetitively. So, what does history and biology teach us about movement patterns? Arthur: That’s a really good question. And it’s pretty clear. Anywhere you go in the world, people got more movement than we did. And I don’t want that movement to always be seen as rigorous exercise because it wasn’t always. And, you know, there are lots of forms of movement. There can be really enjoyable and beneficial to us that include dancing. But the really big part about the movement that I like to stress is the diversity of movement. Today, you know, when we’re, say, walking down a city street that may be pavement or concrete, we can just do the exact same motion over and over and over again, which lacks the value of, say, getting off-trail for those that have access to some areas or even on trails that might have a little bit of terrain that, you know, go down into this valley or up over this hill so that you’re having to do different kinds of steps. You’re having to balance yourself. Your hands move in a different way. Sometimes your hands are reaching out for balance and those kinds of things because it’s very different. It’s kind of like the difference perhaps between free weights and machine weights, where the machine weight is making you do the same motion every single time but you don’t necessarily get the full benefit of the movement when you’re not having to do the balance and use all of those smaller master groups that are contributing to the whole. I think of, too, is other ways of getting that diversity is to get rid of gadgets in the home. And what I mean by that is, you know, we grind flour, for example. So we have a grain mill. And we do that by hand. It’s just a hand-cranked grain mill. We eat a lot of acorns. So when we’re grinding those, we’re doing that by hand. When we’re pounding up medicines, for example, we’re using the mortar and pestle, and just literally trying to get back some of those movements, that kind of modern machines have taken away from us. It’s hard to do in all homes, I recognize that. But essentially, everywhere that I can get back movement, it increases my movement diversity during the day, which is beneficial for a host of things, not just for my cardiovascular conditioning, but for limb movement and a host of things that we could discuss, Katie. Katie: That is fascinating. And I think you’re right. I think, in a sense, that’s one of the, I hope, silver linings that comes about of this year is with a lot of gyms closing and the things people would have typically used for exercise not being available for a while, we’re seeing so many more people get outside and workout from home or try more normal human movement patterns. But I think one of the biggest shifts I’ve had in this past year has been to stop thinking of those things as exercise and to lean into movement, and also to learn from my kids the idea of play and how many beautiful movements come from that, versus this idea that we need to go through a repetitive system in a gym. And it’s more of the things like just picking up heavy things, and moving through space, and climbing things, and the beauty of those kind of movements. But how can we start incorporating more of those movement patterns? I hadn’t even thought about the kitchen tools making that part of daily life as well. I love that idea. But what are some other ways we can start building on the movements? Arthur: Well, if we just go back to the idea of, you know, starting to learn about foraging, and foraging can be obviously this overwhelming topic, but just take each plant one by one, you don’t have to learn 150, you know, different species that you can eat in the first year. Just learn one or two. Take it slow and build your confidence. But as soon as you were leaving the paved surface to go after some of those plants, they could be berry plants like raspberries and blackberries that many people might be familiar with. They could be wild greens of different species, some of which may be in your garden. The thing is, as soon as you leave that what I call the constructed environment and you enter a more natural landscape, you have to duck under things, step over things, squat down to reach things. And that instantly gives you all of that movement diversity that you’re lacking in an indoor life. And you’re also bringing that nutrient-dense food in so that you can sort of stack those two things on top of each other and kill two birds with one stone. Katie: I love that. It’s been fun in our house this year, all being home more, and the kids having more time to just be outside, which I’ve loved. Like, so many of their activities are canceled, and they’re just… We joke that they’re kind of feral, but I love it. They’re outside all the time. And they’ve brought in all kinds of plants. And I’ve had to check and make sure we could actually eat them before we did or one of my sons found ant eggs and decided to cook them and some duck fat so they ate ant eggs, and there have been worms that they’ve eaten. And most recently, they’ve now taken to hunting squirrel in the woods by our house. So we’ve had wild squirrel and it’s been really fun to watch the kids lean into that kind of on their own and explore. I think kids maybe are just naturally more in tune with that than a lot of us are as adults. Another area you mentioned when it came to biological norms, and actually, these last two I think are the ones I’m most excited to really delve into you with, the first being community. This is something anybody listening who’s listened to before has heard me talk about the importance of community. And one of my theories is that that is actually the biggest factor in these Blue Zones when we start studying them that it is related to longevity, the quality of relationships and the strength of their community. But I’m really curious to hear from your research and everything you’ve learned, what we can learn about community in these indigenous tribes and throughout history and benefit from today. Arthur: Katie, community will be one of the hardest things for people to be able to acquire in this, you know, contemporary world that we find ourselves living in. And when we look at our ancestral patterns of community, they’re just starkly different than how we live now. And again, there are a number of these and I can mention a few, you know, just to help people understand how different we’re living. Let me give you just a few. I wrote about these in “New Path,” and so that people can find a list of these if they choose. One of those was place and comments. And what I mean by that is people, they lived in a very specific place, and they were adapted to that place. You couldn’t take somebody living in the far North and put them in a desert, and vice versa because they lacked not just the physical adaptations, but the cultural adaptations that allowed them to be in those places. So much like, say, the animal species that we might know, we would never expect to find, you know, a certain species of bird that may be a waterfowl, like a kind of duck. We’d never expect to find this in a high mountain forest. It’s just not the place that it lived. And that was the same. That was true of the people that historically lived here. They lived within a very particular region and they were defined by that region. They consumed only foods from that region. They drank water from that region. They only were exposed to the soils of that region. They were defined by that place. And of course, today, that’s just not the case. Homosapiens isn’t defined by their place. We move all over the country, all the time. And in a sense, we lose out on those place-based adaptations that we build into our bodies. We lived in small group sizes, which today, you know, isn’t a possibility for many people. You know, we limited out around 30 to 50 people in most of the groups. And in fact, the population density, believe it or not, was about one person per square kilometer for many indigenous groups. Today, you know, we’re living much higher than that, sometimes hundreds of people per square kilometer when we look at it on a state level. We had a very different political structure. You know, obviously, we come from communities that lacked political bureaucracies. There was not a hierarchical structure. In other words, everybody in the group was sovereign, and that includes the children. So, it wasn’t that men ruled the women or the older people ruled anybody, we often think that these groups had leaders and chiefs. But in many cases, what indigenous cultures had were elders. And elders did not define what people did. They simply adjusted consensus by providing information on which the group could make a decision. Equal wealth distribution was something that we also saw, something that would never occur today. And a tremendous amount of sharing that comes kind of with that equal wealth distribution is particularly harvest sharing those foods that were brought back from the field, where they were distributed, in some cases, via different patterns, depending on the group that we might examine, were distributed amongst the members so that everybody was provisioned for. Any time there was success in the field at securing food, most members of the community would experience that success. You know, we live in a highly competitive society now. And we experienced some really serious hierarchies that can be frustrating at times. You know, they had a cohesion, a strong cohesion for a variety of reasons that we simply don’t have today. And I have a definition of community that I’ll read to you, and then I’ll compare what happens today. So, our ancestral pattern of a community is a small group of people who reside sometimes loosely on a given landscape. They share common resources, experience equality and similar affluence between the genders, even though they may each do different tasks and can operate by consensual decisions, due to similarities and beliefs for the benefit of the group to accomplish living in their place. And I think if anybody was to examine the living that we experienced today that we may have friends and family that are very giving and sharing with us, our society as a whole, would maybe be described better as a large group of people who often compete against one another. And we do experience some pretty significant inequalities and wealth disparities, which creates a lot of trouble operating, you know, in a consensual manner for us to enact things, whether that be legislation or guiding policies, that would be really beneficial for all the people. Katie: That’s so fascinating. I’ve often said, “I don’t think it takes a village, I think it takes a tribe.” And I’ve definitely felt the pull toward wanting more of that type of a tribe in my own life in the last few years, and especially this year, as well. And I think some of the things that really struck me in what you just talked about is that we are wired for that more small, like you said, 30 to 50 person community that we have the ability to help, and to impact, and to create positive change in. And I talked about this before. We’re not really wired to have knowledge of every problem going on in every society around the world and all the global things going on. And our biology, still I feel like responds with stress to all of those things, whereas we’re meant to know the things going on in our immediate group and have the ability to help those people. And I think we’ve gotten so far away from that. You mentioned a lot of these tribes that there was a sovereignty even among the children. Can you elaborate on that and what that means? Arthur: Yeah, it’s something that a lot of people today would have a very difficult time with. And I’m not going to suggest that, you know, parents are supposed to go to this extreme all the time today with things but I’m gonna give a couple of examples. Anthropologists who may have been living with relatively intact hunter-gatherers or herder-gatherers, forager, agriculturalists, you know, a variety of kinds of indigenous people around the world have noticed some really peculiar things if we were to compare it to today’s parenting, which sometimes is that helicopter parenting, where we’re kind of hovering over our children, just really, right there to be sort of involved and then sometimes interfering with everything they’re doing, every decision they’re making. I know it’s sometimes can feel very good to be heavily involved in our children’s lives, but they need that experience sometimes to be able to understand how to make quality decisions that don’t harm themselves and don’t harm others. So, here’s some examples. One particular group that was examined, they noticed that a lot of the children had small scars on them from burns, like maybe on their hands or on their arm. And when they question the parents, they found that many of the children had actually stumbled into the fire when they were very young. Now, they hadn’t been burned very seriously but they had been burned enough to leave a small mark on their skin. And that’s because the children, the very, very young toddlers, even when they were around the fires, nobody was pushing them back. No one was saying, “You can’t do that.” It’s the child’s decision to explore that particular environment, which included the hearth. And parents didn’t feel that it was up to them to sort of dictate what the child could do. Another anthropologist and sort of a famous example was interviewing a mom and the infant who I don’t think could even walk but could hold objects was playing with a machete. And the infant dropped the machete out of their reach and started crying. And while the mom was speaking with the anthropologist without even breaking eye contact, the mom reached behind her, picked up the machete, and just sort of handed it back to the infant so they could continue playing with it. And today, we’d simply never allow those things to happen. Now, again, I’m not claiming that we’re supposed to live in the exact same way, but to understand, again, that this is what we all originate from and that our children are expecting to have some degree of autonomy over their life and to not be essentially dictated at every single second of their life what they can and can’t do. I think there’s a lot of ramifications for them later in their life that come from that kind of parenting, even though I think that’s a person who’s trying to do best by their child, but it breaks strongly from our ancestral patterns. So, we recognize them, and we often try to do is to set up ways that we can still respect the child’s autonomy, but without putting their lives at risk. You know, for example, a couple of examples that I try to share with people, and the famous one that my wife will roll her eyes with, because I use this one so much, you know, we have a wood stove here, and children can fall and put their hands against the wood stove, and could seriously burn them. So we just create a situation where we let that wood stove cool down to the point that it’s very hot, but it can’t harm them. And then we let them explore the wood stove with our warnings about, you know, “Oh, that’s very hot. Don’t touch it.” And then when they touch it, they obviously pull back. They might be frightened by what they experienced so that we comfort them but there’s no long-term harm done. But the child had the chance to learn that experientially. I don’t believe lecturing of, you know, infants and toddlers works because I think they need to learn experientially. And so that’s an example of a way that we created a safe situation for them to learn, rather than hovering over them. And then we can sort of relax because we know that they know the woodstove is hot, where sometimes as a second example, we’re hiking, and we may be in places where there are cliffs and rock outcrops, where a child could fall from them. And so, I give them free range to go toward that edge. But the closer they get to the edge, the closer I get to them, but not in front of them, from behind them where they can’t necessarily even notice that I’m there, and my hand is ready. And of course, I’m not talking, I’m going to let them dangle their feet over the edge of this high precipice. That’s not what I’m describing. But I’m just trying to say that I’m attempting to figure out a way that I can let that child explore, I can satisfy my own needs for their safety, without necessarily interfering with their sovereignty on too much of the day. And so I think those are a couple of examples where I’m trying to understand what our evolutionary biology says about how infants would like to operate and respect that as much as I can. Katie: That’s so fascinating. And from what we know, what did that look like in their independence and autonomy at different ages? Because I know we hear a lot now about even children post-college who are not able to do kind of basic life skills or who are struggling with integrating into the modern world in that way. In these tribes, what were things that may be examples of what children were able to do at different ages and what did that autonomy look like, as they may be hit like 10, or 12 or these different ages? Arthur: Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s a nice way of looking at the effectiveness of hunter-gatherer childbearing. You know, of course, one of the ancestral patterns of childcare, which we’ve just broached is that there’s this high self-responsibility of children. So, if there were not, say, large predators near camp, because many of these groups lived on intact landscapes, where there were large animals that could harm people, which would include children, they were considered free to explore. And in this exploration, they’re having to make judgment decisions all the time about their safety, and the safety of, you know, the children that are accompanying with them. So they were not just learning about judgment, but they were learning navigation skills. They were having contact with nature. And in the end, we see… I mean, could you imagine seeing teenage parents who are highly effective parents, who have had so much exposure to not just making decisions on their own, but obviously, contact with other children of various ages, so that you could have 14 and 15-year-old moms, who were highly skilled at being a competent and responsible adult, which is one of the ways that I look at the success of their giving autonomy to their children is, how good was there child-rearing practices in the younger parents? And it was, again, highly skilled. Katie: That’s really fascinating. And I’ve talked to a few other people on this podcast, including the author of the book, “How to Raise an Adult,” who brought up some of these similar points in that our overprotectiveness, while well-intentioned, is actually harming our kids for the long-term. And we kind of know this. And I feel like that’s still a very tough jump for a lot of parents because, of course, we all do wanna keep our children safe. And I think it’s a hard realization sometimes to realize that, while you’re keeping them maybe physically safe, that there can also be long-term harm or at least the lack of a benefit from them not being able to learn from these natural consequences, and not to have that autonomy early on. And I definitely don’t think I’ve done a good enough job of this at the level you’re talking about with ancestral tribes. But it has been interesting to watch and my kids, we’ve prioritized autonomy and self-sufficiency with them from a very young age. And my husband and I have a motto that we don’t do anything for them that they’re capable of doing themselves because we want them to be able to learn through the experience. And now our oldest at 14, I have no doubt he could easily emancipate and be just fine in the adult world if he needed to. And I feel like this is a whole different even degree above and beyond that, and such a contrast to what we’re seeing in so many young adults in today’s society. This podcast is sponsored by Olipop… delicious soda that is actually good for you. Did you know that most Americans consume more than the recommended daily intake of sugar, by a lot? And sweetened drinks like soda are the leading source of extra sugar. And most of us also don’t get enough fiber! I’ve found a delicious answer to both of these problems and it’s called Olipop. I was so excited to find a truly healthy soda alternative! Olipop uses functional ingredients that combine the benefits of prebiotics, plant fiber and botanicals to support your microbiome and benefit digestive health… and that tastes just like soda without the junk! Olipop is much (much) lower in sugar than conventional sodas with only 2-5 grams of sugar from natural sources. 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What else can we learn from these ancestral patterns of childcare? Because I think the other beauty of this is, as a mom, I’m listening to this going, “Well, there’s such freedom in not having to entertain my kids all the time,” or you know, if that was something I was used to doing, not feeling like I’m entirely responsible for their entertainment, letting them have the room to explore and be curious on their own. But what else can we learn from these tribes? Because I think you’re right, we’ve had such a deviation from the things you’re talking about that it seems completely foreign, probably to a lot of people listening. Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. And there’s several more, and I find them all really, super interesting and super pertinent to kind of maybe some of the things that we witness in young adults today, and how that could have been mitigated. Maybe if we weren’t focused quite so much on longevity and we focused a little bit more on, you know, the quality of life, which does sometimes mean that people need to learn experientially, which means that they sometimes fail and need us to pick them back up again. Here’s another difference. And I’ll group these two together. We know that hunter-gatherer tribes around the world did not have formal education. We didn’t send our children off to school. Now, I’m not claiming that school is bad. But this links with the next one really well, in that, there was little or no direct instruction. In other words, children learned by watching people who were older than them and replicating those behaviors. They were aware, and they were keenly aware of what was going on around them because they had to be. They had to have an awareness of what was happening by the other members of their group so that they could learn, where were the predators? Where were potentially the plants that could cause dermatitis like poison ivy? What was the weather doing and so on. So there was just a much greater awareness of this. And our children all start out like this. My daughter, Farah, who’s a year old, she watches, in particular, what her mom does, but she will also watch me, and then she tries to replicate it. We were recently butchering a whitetail deer, and she wants a knife, and she wants to try to cut the meat, which she’s physically incapable of doing but she still wants to try to match what we were doing. Her mom was just making medicine in a mortar and pestle, a small stone one from black walnut holes. And sure enough, as soon as she set the pestle down, my young daughter, Farah, picks that up, and is striking the walnut halls trying to grind them up into a medicine, just like she saw her mom doing. So, we know that infants and toddlers are wired to watch what’s happening and try to replicate it. The problem is we kind of beat this out of them by sending them to school. And there, it’s all formal instruction and it’s almost all exclusively lecture. And what happens is people become trained to learn only when they’re being lectured at. So, I see this a lot teaching primitive living skills. If I’m doing something, and everyone’s watching me, but I fail to talk about a particular step, even though I demonstrate it, many of the students won’t replicate that crucial step in some item that we might be constructing, they’ll only do the steps that I spoke about. Or for example, I also teach Brazilian jiu-jitsu. People have a hard time watching a particular movement and replicating it. Again, we’ve been lectured at our whole lives. So, this is not me providing a message saying, “Don’t send your children to school,” but maybe to continue to create those opportunities to learn by watching and a lot less speaking, so that they remain trained to do what they were doing as toddlers, watching the world around them, trying to make sense of it, and then replicating those behaviors that they saw older children and adults doing. Katie: That’s such a good point. I’m so glad that you brought that up. I’ve noticed that with toddlers as well, just from the motherhood perspective is they have that natural curiosity at such a young age, even, like you said, at one years old, they want to do the things that we’re doing, including unload the dishwasher or whatever it may be. And I think often we discourage that when really it’s the golden time, like you said, to let them not be able to do stuff and let them feel it things as well and learn from them in a safe way. That’s really, I think, an important concept. And I would actually echo what you’re saying about education as well. That’s I think one of the big silver linings of all the transitions of this year is now there’s a much more widely accepted variation in what education can look like. And so many people are, by default, whether wanting to or not, homeschooling. I think there’s a lot of freedom in that, especially your point that experiential learning versus just book learning or lecture and actually working on a curriculum because we discovered the same idea when our oldest was about to start school. And we asked the question, what best prepares him for adult life? Is it homeschooling? Is it traditional school? And we realized, actually, none of them, none of those approaches seem to effectively necessarily prepare kids directly for adult life in a modern world. And so, asking them, well, what would? And what we realized was it was prioritizing those innate toddler skills of creativity and critical thinking, and being able to ask questions and find answers. If we could keep those things, kids are so naturally geared towards a lot of the things they need later on. And I hadn’t thought of it directly to the degree of, we train them to just learn by being lectured. But it makes complete sense when you say it like that. It reminds me of, in my research, for our homeschool, coming across all of these people that were labeled as outliers, people like Ben Franklin and Leonardo da Vinci, and even Einstein, who they look at and say, “Wow, it’s amazing what they were able to accomplish despite their limited formal education.” And I turn it around, then I say, “No, look at what they were probably able to accomplish because of their lack of formal education.” So I love it right now, it seems like there is a lot more acceptance of alternative educational approaches. And I think this is a perfect time to start being able to take some of these kind of lessons, like you just mentioned, and incorporate those with our kids. I’d love to hear more about how you guys do this with your own kids and in ways that we can prioritize that in parenting and learn from it. Because I think a lot of families have an opportunity, a really unique opportunity to do that right now. And it takes such a burden off the parent side as well to not feel like we need to have them sitting at a desk, entertain them for eight hours a day or be teaching them through lecture. There’s so much more freedom that comes with that experiential watching. So what are some ways we can springboard into that? Arthur: I think you’ve even mentioned some of them of just making sure that you don’t feel that you’re obligated to entertain your children throughout the entire day. I have two daughters, and one of them is seven. And there are times where we are securing or processing these wild foods that we’ve brought into the home to get ready for the winter. And, you know, we’re polite about it. We’re just sort of but not necessarily apologetic and simply saying, “Hey Samara,” that’s my seven-year-old daughter, “We need to get this done because this is our food that we’ll be eating and I’m sorry, I can’t play right now.” And she will go off and just start being creative. She literally built an entire village, if you will, out of cardboard boxes, making windows in them, attaching things that, you know, were, you know, meant to be chimneys and doors, and built this entire, like, playground that she can barely fit in but her younger sister Farah who’s a year old and crawling all over the place, loves to go inside and play around with. She even built a kitchen sink that has running water through a tube inside the home for all of this stuff. And children don’t get the freedom to be able to do that at school because let’s face it, we’re learning about reading, and writing, and mathematics. You know, those are important things but our school… I mean, I went through the entire public school curriculum, a great deal of it was learning about people in places that were either in the past or very distant to me that don’t necessarily have a bearing on how I live today. So, that freedom I think is really important. But just including your children, bring them along as much as you can. When we go foraging, my children are along with me. And they’d learn these plants, not through the same way that I would teach an adult, they’re learning them because , you know, with my daughter, Samara this is the seventh year in her life that she has foraged for, say, ostrich Fern fiddleheads, or wild leeks, or, you know, various species of blueberry, all of which she knows very well and competently now, not because she got a lecture on the differences between these plants and their look-alikes, but because she’s simply interacted with them so much. So some of it is just expanding our ideas about what we can include our children on if we bring them along on these important things that they need to learn, whether it be foraging or something that relates to the suburban world, that’s actually really important for people to learn there as well, they’ll learn it just through participating and not necessarily being lectured at. Katie: Yeah, I fully agree with that. Similar idea, I often bring one of my kids with me on when I’ve traveled for business not so much this year, but in the past or to business meetings, just because I feel like that’s… They’ve learned so much about entrepreneurship and business through participating in those conversations, much more than they could have learned had I just given them a book or tried to tell them about it. And your daughter’s village reminds me of, we used to have this group of families, we got together with who all the parents were involved in similar business type things online. And we would meet up a couple of times a year and bring all of our kids, and so I think collectively, we had maybe 26 kids. There were quite a few kids running around. And we were all in meetings working on each other’s businesses, and we tried to choose areas where the kids had just room to play outside. And the first time we really did this, it was fascinating. All the kids kind of disappeared into the woods for a while and came back later that night having not really eaten much all day. And we found they had built this entire village in the woods from trees that had fallen down. Like, they had collectively moved huge tree trunks and built these teepees and they had named their little village Terabithia. And they had enacted their whole almost like system of government and they had figured out a currency, and they had bartering, and they were all helping each other. It was just fascinating to see how even in such a short amount of time, their creativity ran wild. And they had that natural inclination to do that. It’s just so neat to see. And I feel like that’s very much in line with what you’re talking about, which we didn’t feel guilty at all that we hadn’t been paying attention to them because they were having this incredible experience that they still now talk about all the time. Arthur: That sounds wonderful. Katie: So, I think as we get closer to the end of our interview, I think, like, there’s so much, I mean, you’ve mentioned and I feel like it’s just the tip of the iceberg of all the information you have on your site. So I’ll make sure we link to those resources so people can find them. I feel like the best approach, at least for me, is gonna be figuring out ways to balance the best of what we know from history and from our ancestors with the things that are still very much a part of modern life since we can’t fully get away from that. So, I would love to hear from you, kind of if you had to apply the 80/20 principle to this, or for people who all this is so new, and they wanna kind of dip their toe in a little bit at a time, what are some of the top lessons and changes that we can all start to make based on this knowledge of these biological norms and what we can learn from history? Arthur: I feel like if people will simply accept, Katie, again, that humans have biological norms, we’re just like every other species on the planet, that we have situations, and foods, and sleep patterns and movement, and so on that we are adapted to that… In fact, our genes are literally expecting to experience. And then if they can understand how severely mismatched we are right now, with a lot of our contemporary living, it’s not to claim that everything’s bad and, you know that the cities are all supposed to go away. I don’t want that to be the message that I’m trying to display here but that we can do a better job of understanding that we’re wild people inside who are being kind of given a domesticated experience. And we need a little bit more of that wildness in our lives. And there’s a way to do that no matter where you live. Even if you’re living in an apartment building in the middle of a, you know, highly urbanized area, you can still within your home, provide diversity of movement. You can still provide autonomy to a greater to agree to your children. You can learn to find produce that&

Sandra Halling is a business strategist who knows how to get the best out of technology. She’s been working on optimizing and organizing systems for just about everything for the last 20 years. Now she brings her corporate experience and strategic thinking to help small businesses and individuals implement Notion, an app I’ve been using and loving lately. If you haven’t heard of it yet, definitely check it out. Many experts say Notion is a total gamechanger for how we organize and use information. I’m still learning Notion but I love the clean, visual layout and endless flexibility. I’ll definitely be taking notes on everything Sandra has to say! Episode Highlights With Sandra Halling What Notion is and how to use it for organization and productivity How to create a daily journal in Notion What a daily homepage looks like The difference between tables and pages and how to use them What OKR is and how you can use it to reach goals How I (Katie) use Notion to keep track of summaries using the Feynman Technique What the momentum method is in Notion and how to use it Using templates for maximum productivity Ideas for using Notion to organize the home, family, and meal planning And more! Resources We Mention Sandra Halling Website | Twitter | Instagram Notion Otter app Start Finishing: How to Go From Idea to Done by Charles Gilkey Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen Paths to God by Ram Dass A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle More From Wellness Mama 403: Whew! 2020 in Review + Experiments, Highlights, and Systems for 2021 407: Working Toward Financial Independence and Time Freedom With Joe DiSanto 285: How to Have a Miracle Morning and Organize Your Day With Hal Elrod 316: 17 Practical Time-Saving Systems for Parents (& How I “Get It All Done”) My Favorite Health Apps for Mind, Body, and Hormones My Home Organization System – How I “Get It All Done” My Take on New Year’s Resolutions (+ The Best of 2020) Do you use Notion? How do you like it? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. This episode is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the superfood mushroom company that I have been talking about for years! I love all of their products, especially their coffee infused with brain-boosting lion’s mane and their reishi elixir at night for awesome sleep. I’ve also recently been trying their protein powder and really love their peanut butter flavor. Peanut Butter is one of my weaknesses, and I love that I get all the flavor of it in this protein packed format. I’ve been making peanut butter chocolate smoothies and I love it and my kids love it too. Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This podcast is sponsored by BluBlox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the end, my new line of personal care products. Be sure to check them out. This episode is all about one of the tools I use to stay productive and organized, and that I feel is an extremely valuable tool. And I also feel like I’m not using it as well as I could be. It’s called Notion, and it’s an app that can be used on phone or desktop. It integrates with both. And there seem to be endless ways of using it. I am by no means an expert. So I am here with the systems expert, Sandra Halling, who is a business strategist and system experts, who loves the technological side. She’s been doing different forms of this for 20 years. And now she brings her corporate experience and her strategic thinking to help small businesses and entrepreneurs and individuals at implementing Notion and how to use that to create a framework that supports her personal life. She focuses on organization and she guides her clients through creating personal and professional projects within Notion. And we go into some of these ways that she does this today. And it is very much a visual thing. So we talk through as much as we can just verbally here, but she’s also gonna have a link in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm, that will take you to her site and to some more visuals on how to actually implement this as well as she might be willing to do a combined course for moms and families of how to use this specifically for those related topics. So, again, I find this a very, very helpful tool but I’m by no means an expert at using it and I wanted to bring in Sandra today to go deeper on Notion. Sandra, welcome. Thanks for being here. Sandra: Hi. Thanks, Katie. Katie: I’m so excited to chat with you and learn from you today. One of the topics that is always coming up when I ask the listeners what they want me to talk more about is things like organization and productivity. And an app that I have been probably not even efficiently using, that has made my life so much easier is called Notion. And I feel like I have a ton of room for improvement in how I use it. And I also feel like this is an amazing tool that is not super well-known yet, especially among moms. And I think it can be absolutely incredible. So, to start with, I know that you are an expert in this, which is why I was so happy to chat with you today but walk us through on a very broad level what Notion is. Sandra: Okay. So, Notion at its core is kind of like a database. But I say that word, and sometimes people run for the hills. So just know that, when you’re first diving into it, it’s really like….. It’s a no code application, which means it’s very easy to set up and configure. And it’s meant to do everything under the sun from handle notes, and tasks, to collaboration. And one of the beautiful things about Notion is that you can cross-reference and sync data from all areas of your life to all other areas. So that means that it’s very flexible when it comes to designing your own personal dashboard that makes sense to you and the way you want to run your family, run your life, run your business, and so on. Katie: Yeah, I feel like I’m only beginning to barely scratch the surface of understanding how many uses it has. And I use it for business and also for kind of household management and just keeping track of everything I need to do in my own life as well as, like, long-term goal tracking. I track something called OKRs or objectives and key results for both business and personal, and I keep all of those things in Notion. But I know before we started recording, you mentioned a really good point, which is that there is a learning curve when it comes to Notion. And I think anytime we’re talking, like, high level organization, it can seem overwhelming at first. Certainly when I first started using Notion, I was a little bit stuck as far as how to create systems in it. And I ended up having to kind of go outline all the things I needed to figure out how to manage and then work from there versus just trying to start creating in Notion. So if someone’s new to it, how can they kind of avoid that overwhelm or what’s a good starting point just to start to learn or start to figure out what you’re going to put in Notion to begin with? Sandra: Yeah, so one that I would throw out there for a new user is just about all of the notebooks and post-it notes and shoe boxes that you have around with various tidbits of information, everything from like the whiteboard in your kitchen, where you keep your menu, at least that’s what I do, you know, uber nerd over here. But all of the little places where you have pieces of information that you don’t wanna lose track of and start thinking about those as parts of your life that you could bring together in a coherent whole. So if you could have sort of a one-stop shop for just getting the pulse of things, what would that look like in an ideal world? And even, like, breaking out the crayons and, like, drawing it out in the early days is a really good way of thinking about it. Because Notion really is so flexible. I think it’s worth taking the time to customize it for yourself. And then the second thing is I also wouldn’t, like, overdo that because Notion is better when you start using it as soon as possible, as opposed to trying to build the perfect system before you dive in. And that’s the other thing I see people do a lot is, like, jump in and then get so excited about how fun it is to design it because it really is fun if you like playing around in these sorts of things and then forget that it’s meant to actually make your life easier and not sort of be a distraction rabbit hole. So, it’s like finding that happy medium between putting some thought into what you want it to look like, what purpose you want it to serve, what information do you wish you could organize better or had better track of? So my corporate clients are usually point to like their Google Drive is a mess or their stuff buried in Slack. But my, like, personal clients think about it more for, like, you know, tracking their chore sheet, or finances, or maybe health systems, or just different things on the personal side, even hobbies. It’s a great place to track information on hobbies. So, it’s kind of like getting the lay of the land of all the categories and then thinking about how you would wanna bring it together and being really useful with yourself, like you mentioned. I love that you mentioned the OKRs because I track those as well. I think it’s a great place to be able to do that high level planning as well as the low level day to day task planning. I think that’s something to think about also is, like, when I build my system, one of the things I’ve done is I have time-based perspective. So I have, like, a daily page, a weekly page. But then I also have sort of topic perspective. So I have a business homepage and a personal homepage, and then also things for hobbies and so on. So it’s kind of looking at the categories. And then the third thing I’ll throw out, right off the bat is, like, make sure that if you fall down the plethora of information on YouTube, about Notion is that you go to Notion’s official channel and look at the videos. And I always suggest that even for my, like, advanced users, because Notion, as a company, when they put out videos, they focus more on the features and how it works, as opposed to, like, application and templates. And there’s lots of information and examples out on YouTube about different ways of approaching it and, like, looking at different templates. But sometimes what gets lost in that is, like, the really simple core concepts of what is a page and what is a table? And so, like, what are the building blocks within Notion that you use to configure your system? Katie: Got it. Okay. So I’d love to go through a little bit of these kind of maybe get some advice step by step on things that are largely universally applicable to people listening. So, things like all of us have to eat and most of us are planning food for our families. And I have, you know, tools like Real Plans that I use to do this but I also keep my meal plan in Notion, including like a seasonal rotating meal plan. But you mentioned a meal plan being a thing that is great to track in Notion that I fully agree. So, walk us through kind of how someone can start doing that or what kind of, I guess not template, what kind of system they should set up in there to be able to build on? Sandra: Yeah. So, in terms of, like, food and meal plans, in particular, one of the things that I recommend to people often is to think about their groups of information, sort of like separate buckets. So, for example, I have a recipe log where I have different websites. And I’ll go on the website and grab the prettiest picture of whatever it is and put that at the top and then have the instructions and any sort of notes in there. But separate recipe log, I actually have a completely separate table for, like, my menu plan. So it’s like what day am I planning to eat what, right? And from there, I link that. Actually, it’s just around with this yesterday, my Sunday afternoon on which was playing around with making this work even better than it has before. So, I’m kind of super excited to talk about it today. And that is that I linked it into what I call my daily journal or my sort of, like, my digital bullet journal, if you will. So, I have this daily homepage that I go to that has all these reflections, which I can get into in a second. But it has the link to journaling questions and my habits. Like, am I drinking my water? Am I exercising? That good stuff and then it also has this display of my week and will actually tell me what I plan to eat, or whatever I plan to make for dinner. And Notion has all these great different display formats, if you will. So, one of the things I can do is actually set this up so that there’s a reminder that if we’re having stir fry for dinner, I should make the rice at lunchtime so I don’t forget. You know, it’s like that little stuff that can make our lives so much easier. And so figuring out how to set up my gallery view in Notion. So it not only displays a pretty picture of the recipe to entice me, to start dinner prep when I should, and it also tells me, like, “Hey, what can I do at lunchtime to make my evening a little smoother?” So that’s kind of, like, structurally how I do a meal. I have the different tables, but I’ll say, like, to even kind of zoom out or go to an even more bigger level, one of the things I like to point out for Notion users is that when you’re starting out, what’s the difference between a page and a table? And how do you make tables relate to each other in a way that makes things easier? Tables can be pretty specific in it’s purpose. Like I was saying, I have a recipe table, but that’s very separate from my meal plan table. And that’s separate from my digital bullet journal and habit tracking table. And by doing things like that, it gives you a little more flexibility and control about what you display where. And, you know, Notion, it’s hard to communicate over audio, right, how flexible it is. And I’m sure you could speak to this too, where you just can control so many little nuances of what you see on various screens and dashboards. It’s unlike any other home maintenance or, you know, effort I’ve put into tracking, like, just all those things that go into managing home life, really. Katie: That’s awesome. Yeah, I feel like I use this in so many different ways as well. And like I said, I don’t even think I use it nearly as efficiently as a lot of people, and especially as you. You just mentioned a daily homepage. And I love this idea kind of like a control center for everything you would put into Notion. Can you walk us through kind of, like, how you set that up and all the things that you keep on there, and how you then go from there and to everything else you track? Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. So I love that you asked that because my daily page is actually where I start my day, every day. And in fact, it’s so critical to my process that oftentimes… It’s also where I end my day if I’m being consistent with my habits. And so, I have… One of the things I like to do is do check ins at various point during the day. And for me, a check-in is a set of questions that I like to ask myself to just sort of, like, literally check in to see how I’m feeling that day, what I want to accomplish that day, if there’s anything I’m worrying about, really just a pause from sort of the, I hate to say grind because that’s not really what I mean. But you get what I’m saying. Like, that day in day out the kind of, we get into automatic pilot, a better way of saying it. And having the check-ins for it is a huge way of me zooming in the midst of the day and deciding how I want a couple of hours to go. So, my daily page is where I have my check ins located and I set those up as template button. So I have a preset list of questions that are in a page. And so all I have to do is click the template button and it pops open a new page with all my questions and I fill them out. And then I suppose all in a reflection database. So I can go and see that, like, you know, on December 14th, I was talking about balance. That’s the tag I have on it for this morning. And then from there on my daily page, I have a link to a separate table, the one I was talking about for sort of, like, the daily habits. And in that table, I track a whole slew of things from, like, I have checkboxes for did I sweat? Did I stretch? Did I meditate? Did I do my morning pages? Did I do a thought model? Did I take medicine, vitamins, so on and so forth? So you could go down the laundry list of the things that you keep track of for yourself. And, you know, this is all in one table but I display it in different sections. So, I don’t have to think through it all at once all the time. I get through what I’m looking at a given moment. And so, this daily page, it actually has, like, I think four sections to it. And so there’s a page that’s worthy of my attention at 5:00 in the morning when I’m, like, pre-coffee and just trying to get my brain in here. But there’s also a section of it that’s like midday check in and a section of it that’s more towards the end of the day. And in each of these areas, I use my habit tracker and I display different fields. So different properties. So, in the morning, the only thing I really care about is, like, did I remember to take…? You know, did I remember to have some water and what time did I wake up? That kind of thing. But later in the day, there’s fields for food and tracking symptoms. Like, I have chronic sinus issues so I track all the symptoms related to that just so I can see going back, “Oh, hey, you know, this has actually been bugging me for a couple of weeks now, not just a couple of days. And just gives me all this rich information about what’s going on in my world from a day to day basis. So that’s kind of how I jump off from the daily page. Katie: I’m taking notes and mapping out all these things that I need to add to mine. So, talk a little bit more about templates because I think this is one of the huge strengths of Notion. And I know that there seems to be an ability to share templates because I’ve used templates that other people have created. I haven’t gotten very good at creating my own templates yet but this has been on my list because a lot of the things I do are repetitive. And creating them as a template, like a daily to do list or weekly planning for my team, things like that, it seems really, really helpful. So, walk us through the advantages of templates and how to kind of figure out how to use them. Sandra: Yeah. So, the word template is used in a couple of different ways and sort of the Notion sphere if you will. So, the high level version of a template is, like, you know, you can build out whatever you want your pages and tables to look like, and then you can actually share that whole setup with other people. And so, when you say you’ve brought templates into your system, that’s what you’re talking about there. There’s actually a way to share it on the web. And when you first go into Notion, you can, like, click the duplicate button on a shared template and it will transfer that whole setup into your setup. So when I work with clients privately, that’s often what we do is once I get them set up with the basics, and they’re rocking and rolling, and they’ve got the technical skills down, which only takes, you know, an hour or two to do, then we transfer my template into their system. My template’s a little bit of a whopper, right, because I, you know, do this day in and day out. And that’s one way to sort of streamline things is to find a person that you like Notion already, you know, either via YouTube or whatever, and then either purchase or look for a free template that you can transfer in your system. It’s a huge time saver because those templates, if they’re designed well will come with all these tables that we’re talking about pre-linked together. So you don’t have to sit there and kind of figuring all the layout. It also eases things from the standpoint. I like to say that Notion doesn’t have an opinion about how you manage your business or your life. And so that’s both a good thing and a bad thing. And it’s that them not having an opinion means that you have to have an opinion. We all have time for ourselves, how are we using Notion, where are we gonna start our day? What’s gonna be the most important? And then, but it means that we get to decide all that stuff, as opposed to having to fall into whatever the software developer decided was the best way to do something. So that’s templates at a high level. But there’s also templates within the system that are like for any given database, you can have a template that could prefill information. So, like, best example for me is in a work, I have a template in particular for my meeting log, if you will. And so, when I started new things, say, I have a new sales plan or something like that, I actually have prefilled questions that I like to make sure I ask. And so, when I start a conversation of that nature, I can just press a button on that table, launches a new page, with all of those questions preloaded… So I don’t even have to think about it. Another way would be maybe, like, you’re running a podcast, for example, certain steps that you follow for the podcast, probably on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis episode. And so, those sort of checklists, if you will, could be their own template in a system so that every time you start a new podcast, you know, content calendar for your month or your quarter could open that up and you’d have all new checkboxes to start your flow of information. And I’m using checkboxes just to make the example. But your templates can get really complex with nested tables and ask related information. So it’s really… This is what makes Notion awesome is that it’s so malleable to what the user actually needs. It can be super simple with just a couple of checkboxes, all really powerful, and you could use it to manage a team or run a business. And then the third one, like, so many templates… So the third type of template is actually what we call a template button. And a template button is a completely different kind of feature in Notion, where it just exists on the page and you can put anything into it that you wanna replicate. And I like to use it because it gives the title of the page a prefilled label, so it pops in as opposed to using a template in a table, which doesn’t do that. And you can kind of sneak them in throughout. And so, if there’s certain things that you do on a repeated basis, but maybe aren’t so complex, that it’s worth putting them in their own table, then you can, you know, use these template buttons just to sort of streamline a process or create a set of reminders or, like I said, it’s good for creating a set of checkboxes that maybe you do every week or month or something. Katie: Yeah, I’m thinking of so many new ways to use this for a lot more areas of my life certainly. Does this…? Can notion integrate directly with other systems that people might be using? For instance, you mentioned Slack or Calendar apps or can it integrate directly with any of these things or is it standalone? Sandra: So right now it’s standalone. What I’ll say is that Notion has the ability to embed a lot of apps. So what that means is Notion is basically access through the slack command. And you press that, and you’ll see a list of options. And as you start typing, it kind of narrows down to what you need. One of the things you can do is you can, like, embed a Google doc, or an image, or lots of other things. Just last week, there was a release Notion put out a notice that they are in the midst of testing API, which is basically the call that applications use to talk between each other. And so it’s gonna be in beta early next year. So, fingers crossed sometime before the end of next year, we’re gonna actually have true integration with other applications. But right now, standalone. And I will say, though, whenever I’ve had that, like, when I used to do it or some of these other apps that are out there to help meet my life, I always found myself adding more to it than I could really reasonably process. So there’s something about API that can send us on a path of almost, like, over-integrating things. So, in some ways, I’m kind of grateful that Notion has been the standalone feature because it really encourages curating what you’re putting in there, as opposed to just dumping everything in there and then not really being able to use it to execute on the things that you wanna be able to do. Katie: That’s awesome. I know another kind of unrelated thing that I use it for that I probably could figure out how to templatized better, but that I recommend to people that might be a new one, even for you as I use it to do something called the Feynman technique. And I keep what would basically be like a journal, but where I sort of put all of my Feyman technique summaries right now. And for anybody who’s not familiar, I’ve mentioned it a little bit on the podcast before but the Feyman technique is basically the idea that you have learned something when you have the ability to clearly and concisely explain it to a child. And luckily, I have lots of children to actually practice this and explain to every day. But this is something I do whenever I read a new book or watch a TED talk or learn a new concept by researching or really delve into the studies on a topic. And I find it really helps recall. But by committing these things to an actual written form, I also have them in one place for reference. So if I ever need to go back and remember something from a book or from a concept that I’ve learned, it’s in one place, and Notion gives me a great place to track all of these. And then I can also, like, easily find them to share them, if I need to with my team or whatever it may be. So that’s a tip I love to give moms is it really helps I find enhance recall and creativity. And if you’re not a big fan of writing, you can use another app called Otter on your phone to speak into your phone and explain, and it will transcribe it for you so then you can put it in Notion. So that’s kind of like how you said you use it as a journal. That’s sort of the way I sort of daily journal with it. And then you mentioned you also use it to track things like goals, and I do too, but I have a feeling you’re gonna have some tips of better ways that I can be using this to track goals. So, do you build templates for that or how do you map out and then keep track of goals within Notion? Sandra: Yeah. So, tracking of goals, I do OKR process, which has been really revolutionary for me personally, because I always found SMART goals to be a little too bossy, if you will. I’m a rebel at heart. And so, the second someone tells me what to do, I tend to do the opposite. So SMART goal never quite worked for me because I just wanted to rebel against it. But there’s something about the OKR methodology where when you make the objectives, the sort of inspirational/aspirational things that you’re trying to do in your business or your life, the impact that you’re trying to have, the focus, and you set those up first, suddenly having key results, which are essentially SMART goals, they’re timely and specific, it feels a lot more approachable to me. And there are things that I really care about. So I’m able to, you know, harness that power. And so the way my system is configured is I have objectives and results both in separate tables. And then I also am a big fan of Charlie Gilkey, and the Productive Flourishing Academy. He has a book called “Start Finishing,” which if you haven’t read it or seen it, I highly recommend it. It’s just a great book for anybody really. Like, I’ve seen professionals use it. I’ve seen creatives use it. I’ve seen parents use it. It’s just a neat methodology for planning how to actually finish the things that we start, right? So, the way I use the momentum planning method in Notion is, I have some other tables, one’s for projects, which I think of as kind of like the smaller steps to making my key results happen. And then I have a table for actions or tasks with a really micro level. I need to, you know, update this thing or research this thing, whatever, the tasks I need to take care of. And then, to make it even more robust, I have one more table that I use, which I call areas, which is meant to be sort of wheel of life, if you will. So, any sort of component to my life that I wanna have an intentional practice around and chew with, I set up in the areas. And so it’s sort of like having a goal, but it takes off, like I said, that time pressure, so that it’s just, you know, periodically, I go in and I look at those things that matter to me, and I can kind of… You know, some of them have checkboxes, some of them have tables, some of them just have quotes to remind me of things. So it’s a very fluid process by the time it gets to areas, but it allows me to separate out things I care about that I wanna be intentional about from actual measurable spindles that I have in my business. And all of these tables, very areas of my system. So they all appear in my weekly review. They appear on… Some of them are on the daily page or I also have two other dashboards that I use after the daily page on a day to day basis. And they’re called the Today Page and The This Week Page. And those basically allow me to have, like I said, time-based perspective on what it is I’m trying to create. Katie: I love that. I know, like… I think, OKR, I’m a huge fan as well. I’ll put some of my favorite resources related to understanding that in the shownotes. I think it’s applicable to everyone. I know it’s often used in business, but I think it’s actually very relevant to parents as well, as far as planning long-term things with our kids, certainly for homeschooling parents and having goals related to that. And I also use it, like I said, in my personal life for personal development things or new skills I’m trying to learn and keeping track of all of those. I feel like there’s just so many ways to use that. This episode is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the superfood mushroom company that I have been talking about for years! I love all of their products, especially their coffee infused with brain-boosting lion’s mane and their reishi elixir at night for awesome sleep. I’ve also recently been trying their protein powder and really love their peanut butter flavor. Peanut Butter is one of my weaknesses, and I love that I get all the flavor of it in this protein packed format. I’ve been making peanut butter chocolate smoothies and I love it and my kids love it too. Go to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama and code wellnessmama gives 10% off. This podcast is sponsored by BluBlox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. Get free shipping worldwide and 20% off by going to blublox.com/wellnessmama or enter code wellnessmama at check out. And a couple of other ways that I use Notion, in general, are for keeping track of things like Christmas gift ideas or gift ideas, in general, for all my kids. I have things like that because they tend to mention things throughout the year. And then rather than having to think of them, just at this time of the year, also things like house updates and projects things I need to, like, work toward with that. And you mentioned also things like health metrics, which is also relevant to a lot of people listening. How can we use Notion to keep track of these things or how would you set that up? Sandra: Yeah, so this is where Notion can really be a complete, like, life operating system. And I say that… And, you know, I’m always very… I work with a lot of beginners and a lot of right brain sort of creative mind map type people. And so I have a soft spot for them. And I know that saying the phrase operating system is not always enticing to everybody. But at the same time, it’s just a way of harnessing all that creativity and all those ideas you have, and putting the information that we’re all tracking in our heads down and to get, again. That’s the key thing for me, whether we’re about schooling or even just helping your kids keep track of their schoolwork. And if they are doing online class or their chore schedule or their after school events or one that I did recently that I kind of amused myself with is I set up a whole table that’s, like, I call them weekly quests. And it’s basically a gamified version of keeping track of all the things that I don’t have to do every day but I need to do a few times a week. And basically the way the table works is I have a couple of formulas built in so that as long as I vacuum once a week, I get a thumbs up and a good job. But if I vacuum twice a week, then it gives me a bonus. And of this old gamified thing with formulas in there that just amuses me to no end. And it actually encourages me to do these things that I might otherwise procrastinate or just feel like, “Oh, I’m too tired, it can wait until tomorrow.” And then you know how that goes. Like, then it’s like three days later and you still haven’t vacuumed or whatever. So I like to put fun things in there. So it doesn’t always feel like, oh, this is, like, one more thing I have to do. The key thing for me with Notion, like, I actually want to open it on the weekend, which I’ve never felt before with any other app. So, in terms of, like, getting to a more practical answer to your question, one of the things that I use or that I did at Notion this year that was super helpful is we moved. And so not only did I have in there our lists of we were looking for in a house and, like, our ideal, you know, features and what were the must haves, people kept track of the conversation, the realtor and, like, all of the houses we visited, kind of like doing a pro con list on them. And then when it got time for the move, I did a whole inventory. So I numbered all the boxes. And then when I packed a box, I just made, like, a three phrase or a three sentence, just a really quick… What am I trying to say? Three word, there we go. Three word description of what went in the box. And so then I was able to when we moved, and it’s like, okay, we need whatever, the coffee grinder. I could actually search the table and find it. And I knew, okay, this is box 89 or whatever it was. And I have to say, I thought I was over-engineering it and kind of laughing at myself but I was having so much fun doing it, I did it anyway, and it totally paid off. Like, it was well worth the effort I put in to be able to track down, you know, whatever pot and pan and my spices come that first week after the move. So that’s sort of, like, a practical way that you could use an app like this to make your life easier. Katie: And another thing we’ve talked about a little bit, but I wanna make sure we say explicitly is that because Notion is an app, it has both desktop and phone interfaces and then, of course, they sync. And so that’s been really helpful to me because, for instance, like some of the things we’ve talked about, like meal planning, I can pull that up when I’m at the store. I can work on these things when I’m at an appointment with the kids or waiting on the kids in an activity because my phone is pretty much always with me. And so it’s super convenient that way but then it’s easy also to work on a desktop when you’re setting up some of these bigger projects and bigger things. I’m curious, I mean, obviously, you’re probably a power user of Notion, but how much are you interacting with Notion during any normal day? Sandra: It’s a good question. I am in and out of it pretty much all day long. I will say though, you know, I still keep a paper journal when I’m on the phone, oftentimes, because I’m showing somebody else how to use Notion. So we’re in their Notion setup. But I find it helpful for my brain to write some things down. And then I have a process at the end of the week, where I kind of go through that list and make sure that everything’s in Notion the way I want it to be and that, you know, I can keep track of all the little details and the nuances. So, I find it to be a really fluid thing in terms of, you know, some days I’m in there, like, literally almost all day. Now granted, I’m a Notion consultant so that makes sense. But even on days when I’m working on other things or helping somebody with a website or other business systems, I’m still in and out pretty much all day. And I would say the other two things I’ll throw out, I love that you mentioned the web, desktop, phone, and it works on iPad really well. In fact, they’ve made a lot of improvements in the last couple of months on how it works on iPad. And so, it’s like almost so many improvements that I kind of wanna get a brand new iPad just so I can use it. It’s great to be able to see it in all these different formats. And there is a new thing on the new iOS operating… You know, the latest update for iOS actually has this thing called widgets, which if people haven’t seen them or checked them out yet, they’re really cool. They basically put little mini apps, if you will, right on your phone screen. And the Notion widget is super helpful because it can take, like, the first few things in your favorites. So, like, my favorites, the pages are daily, quick capture, and my today page plus a few others. And I actually have that widget right on my phone so that, you know, if I’m in the kitchen, making a cup of tea between calls, and I think of something, I can pop it open and add it to my quick capture or whatever page makes sense really easily and on the fly. So there’s lots of, like, you know, you’re not locked into only being in your browser, only be on your desktop, you have lots of options and ways to access it that can make life easier. Katie: Awesome. And you mentioned in the beginning, this is a difficult thing to explain entirely, just verbally because it’s very much hands-on and visual as well. But I know this is something that you do help people with and you have a website related to. So, for people who want to understand more and who want to start integrating this, I’ll make sure that link is in the show notes but kind of walk us through how you help people with that and the resources you have. Sandra: Yeah, so for different types of clients are different. I really would love to have a group of moms or dads just families that wanna use it for homeschool or personal stuff and all of that stuff. So what I’m gonna do is set up a little forum on my website so if anybody’s interested in that kind of thing, they can let me know and then we can figure it out in the new year. And the other thing I’ll throw out, you can find Twitter at notionnerd and Instagram @notionnerd also. So the best way to find me is on sandrahalling com. And if you put in /wellnessmama, you land on a page that will have some interesting information that’s, like, geared towards helping families. And I actually would love to have a workshop next year, specifically with that as a target. So I’ll put in a little thing that if that’s of interest to anybody, they can sign up and let me know. Main ways I work with people right now is through business coaching and systems support. And so, sometimes people come in and they want just Notion and so we’ll deep dive over 30 days to get every step up and rocking and rolling. And then sometimes what people need is more of, like, a kind of slower burn, if you will. So we do a three to six months approach to dig into the different systems they have in their business and streamline things, connect all the dots. Like, just this morning, I was helping a client connect their Google calendar with their iCloud, with their Macbook, with their phone, like, all those little doodads go together. And so Notion is sort of like one piece of the puzzle for me, but it backbone of the systems I set up. So, again, you can find me on the web at sandrahalling.com or on Twitter or Instagram at notionnerd. Katie: Perfect. I will make sure those are linked here. And another question I love to ask at the end. You mentioned one already, but if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a dramatic impact on your life, and if so what they are and why? Sandra: Yeah. So, I have to say that one of the most impactful books for me is “Getting Things Done,” which is sort of a classic in the productivity space. So, I found it most valuable or most impactful in the sense that it taught me how to group, and categorize, and process information in a way that I hadn’t seen before. And it came out when I was pretty young in my career, I think I was about 20 or so. So it just hit me at the right moment to create what we have now, which is, you know, database consultant now for many years. So, that was really impactful. And obviously “Start Finishing” is kind of a great tool now. I think “Getting Things Done” is sort of a classic, but also it was written 20 years ago. So there’s some elements to it, where our lives have just changed so much. And I think “Start Finishing” does a better job of addressing all of the different avenues that our lives take and how much information comes at us and just sort of managing the mix there. And then other books that, like, really matter to me on a personal level were, like, some Ram Dass books, “Paths to God.” And Eckert Tolle’s “A New Earth” was also really impactful for me because it just gave me a different perspective on things. And I like mixing these things. So it’s both looking at my life holistically, gives me a desire to wanna organize it more. So that’s kind of how those two things tie together for me. Katie: Great recommendations. I’ll make sure those are linked in the show notes as well. I’m so glad I got to share more about Notion today because like I said, it’s a tool that I find really invaluable. And I also one, I feel like I’m not using them as much as I could be. And I’m excited to have learned more from you today. And hopefully shared a new resource with many of the people listening that can simplify their lives. But thank you for your time today and for all the work you’re doing. Sandra: Thank you so much, Katie. It was a lot of fun. Katie: And thank you guys, as always for listening, for sharing your most valuable resource, your time with both of us today. We’re so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening. Thanks to Our Sponsors This podcast is sponsored by BLUblox glasses. Did you know that Blue light damages our eyes and leads to digital eye strain when it comes from artificial sources? Symptoms of digital eye strain are blurred vision, headaches and dry watery eyes. For some this could even cause heightened anxiety, depression, and low energy. I personally noticed that when I was exposed to blue light after dark, I didn’t sleep as well and felt more fatigued the next day. BLUblox are the evidenced backed solution to this problem and made under optics laboratory conditions in Australia. They have over 40 styles and come in prescription and non-prescription so there is a pair for everyone. I also love that BLUblox is also giving back by working in partnership with Restoring Vision in their buy one gift one campaign. For each pair of BLUblox glasses purchased they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. Really awesome company and really awesome mission. 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I’m here with Dr. Ian Mitchell, an expert in the field of ozone and many other topics. He’s here to tell us what ozone is, how to use it, and why it can sometimes be a controversial therapy. We also dive into the cautions and what you need to avoid if you’re going to try ozone. Dr. Ian also explains a cutting edge product called Biocharged that allows you to ingest ozone orally and get a lot of the same benefits you get from using ozone in the blood. I’ve tried some ozone therapy myself and I can’t wait to learn more about this! Episode Highlights With Dr. Ian Mitchell What ozone is (it doesn’t just have to do with the environment) Antibacterial and antifungal benefits of ozone therapy The pros and cons of ozone delivery systems Why ozone isn’t a therapy to use every day Cautions when using ozone and why it’s controversial Tips to avoid a Herxheimer reaction (excessive die-off) How to use an indirect signaling mechanism to deliver ozone What causes sugar cravings (and how ozone can help) Benefits of ozonated oils and how to use them How to find the right dosage for you Carbon 60: promising research that it mitigates effects EMF and radiation And more! Resources We Mention Biocharged (save 10% with discount code WELLNESSMAMA) Silvia Menendez Velio Bocci Activated charcoal The Razor’s Edge by W. Somerset Maugham Stalking the Wild Pendulum: On the Mechanics of Consciousness by Itzhak Bentov The Universal by Walter Russell Sir Ken Robinson Video: Did you enjoy this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review on iTunes to let us know. We value knowing what you think and this helps other moms find the podcast as well. Read TranscriptChild: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast. Today’s episode is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals. They’re on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet. And they’re doing just that with their clean, natural remedies. They have a whole hive of products packed with immune-loving essentials so you can feel awesome all day every day. One of the ones that I love, especially this time of year is called B.Soothed. Helps you feel like yourself again if you get into any of the winter yuckys. And it’s powered by really potent natural ingredients, like pure buckwheat honey, elderberry, chaga mushroom, bee propolis, and olive leaf extract. It’s completely free of drugs, dyes, dirty chemicals, and refined sugars, so you can feel great about taking it or giving it to your kids. And the best part is it tastes really good. So there’s no fight with the kids and none of that nasty, artificial cough syrup flavor we all grew up with. You can take it anytime you’re feeling run down to soothe throat and promote fast recovery or use it as a general immune support. When you’re ready to upgrade, reset and jumpstart your resolutions, check out Beekeeper’s Naturals and discover all of their clean remedies that your family will love. You can save 15% on your first order by going to beekeepersnaturals.com/wellnessmama. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley, my go-to source for grass fed probiotic rich beef sticks and now some of my favorite supplements as well. I always have their beef sticks on hand for myself and my kids, but they have a vitamin C complex that I love. It is made with three of the most concentrated natural sources of vitamin C: amla berry, camu camu berry, and unripe acerola cherry. Each nutrient-packed serving delivers 750% of your daily recommended intake of vitamin C – an amount meant to help you thrive, not just survive. Most other vitamin C supplements are derived from GMO corn and only contain one fraction of the vitamin – ascorbic acid. Their Essential C Complex contains the entire spectrum of Vitamin C with absolutely no synthetic vitamin C… just organic superfoods! Check this and all of their products out and save 15% at paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. Katie: Welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness with an E on the end. This episode goes deep on a fascinating topic I’ve been doing a lot of research on legally, which is ozone. But there’s a lot to understand about this and a lot that is important to know before you just jump in and try it. I’m here with Dr. Ian Mitchell, who is an expert in the field of ozone and many other topics. I’m definitely going to have him on again. But in this episode, we dive deep on some of the misconceptions related to ozone. What is the best way to get and make use of this? What are some of the common use cases, and what are the cautions and things that you need to avoid if you’re going to use ozone? And we talk especially about a really cutting edge product called Biocharged that allows you to ingest ozone orally and get a lot of the same benefits that you would get from using ozone in the blood. We’ll go deep on what that means and how it benefits you in this episode. But if you wanna just check out the product, you can check it out at biocharged.co/wellnessmama. So that’s bicharged.co/wellnessmama. You can check it all out there but really excited to share this and future episodes with Ian Mitchell with you. Ian, welcome. Thanks for being here. Ian: I’m happy to be here. Katie: I’m really excited to chat with you. You’re a new friend. We got to meet yesterday, and already have multiple podcasts planned because we already have so many topics to chat about. But the one to talk about today that I’m really excited personally to learn more about is the idea of ozone. So something I’ve experimented with a little bit myself, but I don’t have a whole lot of understanding beyond just my own experimentation. So, to start, can you take us broad first and explain what ozone is? Ian: Sure. So, ozone is O3. So it’s three oxygen atoms grouped together in a molecule, and it’s super highly reactive. That’s what most people think of it, kind of in a negative context of things like ozone action days and that sort of stuff. And that’s because effectively it’s nature’s disinfectant. And it is very reactive. And it’ll knock out, you know, fungal things and bacterial things very, very effectively, more so than almost anything else. And in terms of reactivity, it’s about the third most reactive molecular species, so you’ll have about 100 million interactions in a second. And in the context of how it applies to physiology, there’s a tremendous body of work and thousands of articles that are all peer-reviewed, both nationally and internationally, just very demonstrably showing the effects of using rectal ozone, when you do rectal insufflation, ozone autohemotherapy. There’s actually bubbling ozone through water. There’s a whole lot of methodologies to actually use it. The one that I’ve been the most focused on is using it with oils. And so, you take a little bit of liquid or, you know, a triglyceral fatty acid, and you bubble it through. So, in the case of what we were working with, we’ve worked with olive oil and sunflower oil. And a lot of people… What we ended up using was sunflower oil because you can utilize more ozonides, which is what you end up with, which is not something that’s detrimental to your body, but it’s beneficial because in the form of the capsules that we made it biocharged, you don’t actually have any ozone remaining in the capsules. So, you start with something that’s very reactive, then you react it through another medium, in this case, an oil. And then at the end of that, it’s done a triple pass redox reaction, which is just a reduction-oxidation reaction. And you’re left with something that is a signaling molecule. So, the ozonides when you take them into your bodies, they work effectively as signaling molecules. So it sets up a cascade for a hormetic response. And just the idea being that you use something that creates a pro-oxidative insult in your body and your body responds and says, “Oh, my gosh, we’re under attack, stop this.” And so, it mobilizes and it up-regulates its mitochondrial function, and then produces things like superoxide, dismutase, and glutathione, to mobilize the innate immune system to deal with any insult that’s been created. So, kind of broad-spectrum. What we’ve been doing is taking something that’s very ubiquitous, and people have used for a long time, but reimagined it in a way that we can elicit the same response that people do with autohemotherapy, which is where you pull your blood and then you mix it with ozone gas, the ozone reacts in your blood, and then you push it back in, and you use the ozonizes in your blood. But it’s kind of a cumbersome process, and it’s more expensive, and it’s not something you’d wanna do every day. So, what I was tasked with was, is it possible to do autohemotherapy in a pill? And initially, I thought, that’s really kind of a difficult thing but I like crazy puzzles. So, I signed up and said, “Yeah, I’ll try and figure it out. If it’s possible, I’ll figure it out.” And so, that kind of started this big process where I went back and researched ozone and then researched ozonated oils to see what sort of bridge we could come up with to get from the standpoint of just having an ozonated oil and using it to replace autohemotherapy if possible. And that brings us to where we are now. Katie: So fascinating and so many different angles, we can go from there. So people can understand if they’re not familiar with ozone at all, what would be some of the reasons someone might use autohemotherapy or ozone and other ways of rectal insufflation, for instance? What would they use that for? Ian: Well, the biggies are if you have any sort of infection, like parasitic infections, viral infections, it’s incredibly effective against Giardia, parasites which are truly very difficult to get rid of. The medications are not terribly easy to take. My mom actually had an infection about a year ago and the Giardia was very difficult and unfortunately, it was before I’d worked on this project, otherwise, it would have been a quick three-day fix. But as it stands, she took the regular medication that was prescribed and it was just kind of a difficult and longer process. And you’d use it if you have Candida or something like that. In fact, that’s, one of the things that the oils, we found has been most beneficial for working on is people with Candida infections whose intestinal flora is a little off-kilter. The biggest effect, personally that I’ve seen is it knocks out sugar cravings. And my 14-year-old when I started working on this, and after I had really pegged in, he was 14, and he was taking it. And he’s 15 now, but we were working on this thing for quite a while, and he stopped having sugar cravings. And he was gleeful actually because he’s at the age where hormones kicked in and he was trying to get fit, and to do all of the things that a young social creature does. And it was really good for him, I think. I think it actually worked very well for him. And I had the same experience that I just didn’t really want it. And I think that’s primarily because when it goes into your GI tract, it rebalances your intestinal flora, and your… That’s a bit of a misnomer to say that it does… What it actually does is, again, it provides a signal, and then your body actually does the work. The trick is to provide enough of a signal. And in the old school methods of actually using ozone and putting it in a bag and then, you know, doing it rectally, or you know, taking it literally, there are quite a few ways you can do it. You can do it transvaginally, rectally. Actually, some people use it in their ears, other people will bubble it through water and drink the water. Some people bubble it through oil, and then inhale it, which is, in my opinion, that’s probably the most dicey of the whole bunch because it doesn’t really do well with mucous membranes. So, taking it in some capacity, it’s gonna get in your lungs. It’s not good, which is hence, you know, why people have ozone action days. You really do not wanna be breathing ozone. It’s a great therapeutic tool if used properly. And that’s why we kind of targeted in on how do we do this for people in a beneficial way and, you know, take out infections or rebalance gut flora and up-regulate mitochondrial function? Because one of the things that people notice after you’ve taken this is you get almost kind of a niacin flush as if you’ve, you know, taken a big shot of niacin and because your mitochondria up-regulate. And so, you start pumping out ATP, and you feel it, it’s kind of a thermal heat shift. Katie: Okay. I’m really glad you brought up, like, if you inhale it, because I think in some ways, I’ve seen sources where ozone has gotten a bad rap. And it’s because of that. So can you explain a little bit in more detail of why it’s not necessarily beneficial and can be harmful if inhaled, but it can be so beneficial if it’s taken in other ways? Ian: Yeah. So, effectively if you burn something, you are oxidizing, right? Burning is like a rapid sort of electric chemical oxidation. And all you’re doing is you’re stripping electrons off using the oxygen and breaking it down. And if you inhale ozone because it has an unstable configuration, you literally will chemically burn your lungs and your lungs really are a very thin layer. So, you know, you have a one-cell thick layer throughout your lungs. And if you cook that, the repercussions are really harsh. And so, in that sense, ozone is very harmful. But it’s kind of, like, there’s so many compounds that I can think of that taken in and of themselves in one way they’re very detrimental. But if you use them as a tool, they’re incredibly beneficial. I mean, you can hit someone with a hammer or you can use it to assemble something very well. And this is the same sort of principle. You’re just using something that provides a chemical impetus to elicit a specific response and put something else in a medium that you can actually use for your benefit. So, it really works out so that ozone, you really do kind of want to avoid in the sense of something to breathe. But rectally, it works pretty well. Again, it’s a little bit invasive for most people. I think that’s never gonna be something that’s ubiquitous and, you know, embraced by the masses, because not everybody wants to sit with a bag and, you know, slowly push ozone into themselves. And that’s why I think, you know, what we did at Biocharged is really aces because you can literally get the same effects, just with taking one pill. And it’s not even something that you really should think about taking permanently. Like, people have been asking me since we put the product out, “Do you take it every day?” Yeah, initially you do. But the first bottle, it’s about a two month supply, and it’s something that you’ll take it as needed. And if you have really bad intestinal flora or horribly bad, you know, parasitic sort of infections, you’re gonna wanna go slowly because you don’t wanna trigger a Herxheimer reaction where you have a Herxheimer because the die-off is so intense, that that can actually cause problems. So you wanna kind of taper it off but you will wanna take generally one of the capsules just to stimulate the beneficial effects, but only for a couple of months, and then do it maybe as a maintenance thing, you know, once every couple of days. It’s just most of the projects that I work on, I really like solving puzzles that are gonna benefit people biologically but very rarely do you find things that you wanna do permanently. Like, even the things that I’m, you know, very well-versed and have a lot of patents on, like, you know, carbon 60, nanoparticle and things like that, those are phenomenally good, very strong antioxidants. You can extend longevity of lots of things. You know, I told you that, like my lab animals, I’m at a 93% extension in their lifespan, which was incredible and we were all surprised. But even that, it’s not something you wanna do every day because your body is so brilliant and so adaptive, that if you do something consistently, very frequently, I see things like that become a detriment because your body adapts to it. If you constantly take a supply of exogenous antioxidants and you’re just popping pills all the time, well, your body being efficient goes, “I don’t need to produce this much.” And then so the moment you stop taking them, your body effectively is going into withdrawal because it stopped producing what it should be producing. So, the projects I like to do are things where I’ll solve some sort of puzzle that’s been around for a while that benefits people, but it’s not something that they have to stay locked into forever. It’s something that if you sporadically augment your own physiology, but isn’t something that’s, you know, necessary to take forever but it’s just a personal philosophy thing. But philosophically, I don’t think you should really have to take supplements forever. Katie: I fully agree. In fact, listeners might have heard me say before, there’s nothing I take every single day, including food. I go without eating regularly, fasting in different forms, and supplements, I’ll rotate them or even if it’s something I’m taking regularly, I won’t take it on the weekend for that same reason of just, I don’t want my body to ever adapt to having an external source of anything over the long-term. Ian: Yeah, you know, it’s funny because when you put it in terms like that, it makes me think like working out. If you told somebody, “Okay, you’re going to do the same exercise every day for the next 20 years,” anyone who’s ever exercised the leg knows, like, oh, you have to change that because your body adapts so rapidly. I mean, with the things you’re doing, like the pole vaulting, right, that are super intense, like, very, very tremendous burst of energy, where you have that huge output, you have to change up your training, you know, because otherwise, your body will adapt. And I mean, aren’t you constantly changing your regime every couple of weeks? Katie: Yeah, and it’s been really fascinating. I felt like I had learned a lot from that, you know, that I’m translating to other areas of my life because, like you said, it’s extremely explosive, powerful movement. And we change our training every two weeks into a different phase that simulates muscles in a different way. So, at first, it was just purely aerobic, contralateral movements, and then it worked all the way up into now these super heavyweights moving to max or above your max, but doing it very slowly, or only in one direction, or oscillating. And all those things, like, basically every two weeks is a totally different program because the muscles will adapt if you let them. Ian: Yeah. That kind of an approach always makes sense to me and that’s kind of what I have adapted for, you know, developing supplements to help people. I don’t want to make them dependent… Like you asked me about the product for hair, like, is it something that people have to take? And that’s… You know, I’m sure we’ll cover that, you know, at some point in the next one, but no, the idea is not that you keep people hooked on a medication. I am legitimately about cures, not about customers. You know, I mean, the idea is, it’s nice that people use the things you’ve made and want to support you. But the idea is, if it’s something where a person has a physiological need, help them fix it and then, you know, go about doing another thing. And there’s an infinite amount of things that you can help people with. I don’t really like the big pharma approach of, you know, we don’t want cures, we want customers. I think that’s something that I personally I’m completely diametrically opposed to. That’s just, like, antithetical to how I roll. Katie: I fully agree. And so I know people listening may end up with some questions. You mentioned it’s a signaling mechanism in the gut, and that it can address some pretty profound things like Candida and parasites and gut infections. I know people are gonna probably ask, is there a danger of it harming beneficial bacteria? Can it throw Flora out of balance in that way or is there a different pathway with the signaling? Ian: Well, actually, that’s the thing that’s neat because if you use ozone directly, yeah, you can throw things out of kilter. And the reason is because you’re waiting for things to interact based on their own intrinsic ionic nature. So just whether they’re positively or negatively charged. And most bacteria that are harmful or parasites that are harmful, are predominantly oriented one way but not all of them. So, if you just go and smart bomb it with something that has one charge, yeah, you’re going to damage good things. So, that’s why I prefer not using ozone directly but doing it through an indirect signaling mechanism. Because then you’re giving your body this huge boost so it up-regulates the mitochondrial function and then starts producing things to mount its own immune response. So basically, you’ve provided energy for the systems that are already intelligently combating and know what to combat, the different things in your GI tract. So no, you don’t… If you use something that’s a signaling molecule, it sets up a cascade and it will act accordingly based on what your body actually needs to be balanced in lieu of just going in and chemically, or in this case, ionically, wiping out, you know, just with reckless abandon whatever’s there, because it’s like a carpet-bombing approach. It doesn’t really work. I mean, you do actually, again, not to bag on Big Pharma because pharmaceutical approaches, in a lot of ways, there’s some great products but it’s a little bit obtuse to think that you can go in and just have a one size fits all solution for something like that. Your body is actually incredibly intelligent and it’s well-tooled after, you know, so much time to know what it needs and how to function. I mean, that’s why we have food cravings, you know, not in all cases, a lot of times, unfortunately, it’s, you know, parasites kind of running the show or bacteria running the show and giving you a signal, like, “More sugar.” But generally speaking, your body knows what it needs, you know. And so this just provides it with the tools to act on those things more effectively. In fact, it’s a little interesting because normally, if you look at just a standard ozonated oil, they’ve been around since 1904. And I was telling you that Nikola Tesla was the fella who actually came up with and started selling it. And people have been doing it for the past century but nobody did it the way that Tesla did it because, honestly, I think they just missed it. He had this, you know, elaborate array of magnetic field beds and then he would put all of his oils in the bubble ozone through to create his Tesla’s ozonated oil. And what you’re doing is you have a polar, which is just a molecule that has a charge. And because of that charge, it’ll have an orientation. He would use those magnetic lines of force to orientate so you could get the highest strength in whatever unit volume you have. And literally, everybody for the past 100 years has been, like, “You just bubble ozone through oil, and it’s all good,” which, you know, completely misses the point. Any time you find somebody who’s that brilliant, if they’re taking three times as long and potentially three times as much of an expenditure capitally to get something made, there’s probably a reason. You know, it’s not just that they want to lose money and take a lot more time to get something to the people. So, when I looked at all of the work that have been done in the past 100 years, and then I kind of figured out what I had been doing, I thought, “Oh, my God, this is brilliant. He got a stronger signal.” So, at first, I just kind of recreated what he had done, but then I thought, “Well, you know, we’ve had 100 years of tech and there have been a lot of advancements, what would Tesla do if he had access to all of the equipment, and the tools, and 100 years of new physics knowledge?” So, I completely rejiggered it, so I could give it a stronger signal. So, he used to do this thing, where per unit volume, there were more active oxides. I actually took the molecule and up the volume. So it’s kind of this literally as if you have the same song, but you cranked the volume up. So the net effect there is you take a third of a milliliter, you know, a 300-milligram capsule. And it gives you this incredibly pronounced effect because your body thinks that it’s had this huge oxidative insult, but it’s actually just a very, very little one but it was just quite noisy. Katie: That’s so fascinating. And is that…? So it addresses bacteria and parasites, which you mentioned. I love that you brought that up that those can often be the reason for food cravings. Is that the mechanism by which it’s reducing sugar cravings? And I know it’s also used for weight loss. Is that what’s happening? Ian: Yeah, exactly. So, when you knock out your cravings, yeah, I mean, really, ultimately, that stuff is going to… The viruses and bacteria and parasites, all those things that cause you to do something and elicit a specific behavior, it’s almost always to create an environment that’s more conducive for their growth, right?? And so, in the case of, like, Candida where you want more sugar or something like that, you get those cravings because that just creates a better environment for them to grow and thrive. And all this does is squelches that. It knocks that out and that’s why the sugar cravings go away and that’s why you wanna eat less. Ultimately, it regulates your ghrelin and leptin levels, but it does that by virtue of just taking away the signal to crave those things that some harmful bacteria had been giving you. So yeah, you eliminate the root cause of the problem and then you get all of the benefits of it downstream. Katie: Which also seems a lot easier than trying to strictly battle sugar cravings, which anybody who’s ever done it knows is awful. Ian: My God, honestly, how can you do that? I mean, we are wired that when you get those signals, right, unless you’re affecting your ghrelin and leptin levels, you’re going to want to eat and it’s, you know, the brownie will be calling. It’s just, tries avoiding that, you know. Katie: Absolutely. That’s so interesting. I wonder too is there a crossover effect with this? Obviously, one of the themes in health and wellness the last few years is how much it goes back to gut health. So, do people see crossover effect into things like autoimmunity or eczema? I know there’s so many things that often get tied to the gut. And if you address the gut, you see benefit in other places. Ian: Actually, there are a lot of studies… I don’t feel comfortable addressing it specifically with the Biocharged product, just because we haven’t had enough time. We’ve seen things regarding Candida and a bunch of other stuff. But so I’d feel more comfortable looking at a lot of the peer-reviewed studies that have been published over the past couple of decades because they’re all over the world. And yeah, there are a lot of crossovers. Actually, the reference that I would look up, or, you know, your gang should look up, is probably there’s a doctor named Sylvia Menendez, and she’s based in Cuba. She does work all over the world, but she’s one of the preeminent people who’s all about ozone. And it’s because in Cuba, just out of necessity, they developed a lot of products using natural substances that they had access to because they were cut off from a lot of the rest of the world. And so they did a tremendously in-depth study and have, you know, huge reams of data. And also a fellow named Baleo Bocci, who is a doctor in Italy, put together a tremendous body of work on the same and has, you know, a very large tome about ozone and all the effects and it’s very well-referenced. And if you go through it, you can find a litany of information there. So, yeah, tons of crossover effects. But for anybody who’s looking, just Google it. You know, I mean there’s… You can find reams and reams and reams of data on it. Katie: Okay. Who are you finding are using this the most right now? Because I know, we’re also gonna get all the follow-up questions are, you know, can pregnant women use this? Can nursing women use this? What about kids? What age? Ian: Well, yeah, given the strict requirements of the FDA to not be able to say it does treats, prevents, cures, or does anything, you have to avoid that like the plague. So, I don’t know that I can say anything specifically. Actually, matter of fact, we don’t recommend it for pregnant, nursing women or kids but that’s standard across the board. Now, personally, I might do something different but that’s my own educated opinion. Though I can’t really recommend it, I would say just literally, for listeners who are curious about that stuff, look up the data. There’s huge forums where people are talking about it and you can find, you know, chat groups about it. And so many people are open and willing to share right now to your question. A lot of the people that are doing it are kind of, like, you know, cutting edge biohackers and things like that. You know, people who do the same thing you and I do where we do a lot of self-experimentation. My friend Dave Asprey with Bulletproof, he does it. Todd Shipman, biohacker Todd, Todd takes it. There’s a lot of guys, it’s actually, all of us, I think had done it before just in its standard form of, like, some type of ozone therapy. But oh my God, this is so much easier. I mean, I’m a big fan of ozone therapies but now, I probably will not go back and do them unless there’s some very specific thing I need to do because it’s so much easier just to do it, you know, pop a capsule, call it good, roll on. And it’s a special type of capsule because initially, when I was doing the testing, I was looking at how everything responded. And when we were talking back and forth with the company about how to get the best delivery, what would actually have the best results, we ended up using a timed release. So it’s like a delayed-release capsule. And the reason for that is you don’t necessarily want it to crack open in your GI tract because the acids will break it down. You are not so much in your GI tract, and your gut, and your stomach specifically, you want it to really kind of open in your small intestine because that way it’s gonna permeate and get into your bloodstream, so that’s what you’re really shooting for is to get it systemically through your body. Katie: Got it. Yeah, anybody listening who’s asked me questions related to pregnancy or nursing, I have to give the same advice because the rules are so strict. Even if you asked me if you can eat a salad during pregnancy, I have to tell you ask your doctor or your midwife, like, truly there’s nothing related to those because there’s not studies on pregnant women. So that was a perfect answer. I’m sure a frustrating one. Ian: Yeah, I hate saying that. But you know, people don’t realize, you know, the cost of getting a drug approved is prohibitively expensive. I think most start-up companies find guys like me with a research facility where we do things and we’ll develop products, and then they just come in and buy it, and then they push it through as some sort of drug on the other end, knowing fully well that, you know, we will have to release something as a supplement and can’t make claims about it for fear of, you know, hardcore retribution of reprisal, you know, from the powers that be. But I actually asked someone earlier today, like, “What do you think the cost of getting a new drug is or getting a new drug to market is?” And they said, “Well, probably about $10 million?” And I said, “No, it’s over a billion dollars.” That’s the average cost to take a drug for humans to market. You know, for animals, you can do it for about $50 million. But the cost is over a billion dollars. And so, it’s effectively kind of regulatory gatekeeping because I didn’t know about you, but I don’t have a spare $1 billion to throw around and getting something pushed through. Katie: No kidding. Yeah. Ian: Yeah, it’s just the barrier to entry is so high that you have people who are producing really brilliant stuff for people that can be used across the board to treat lots of things. And you will probably never hear a commercial for it just because it’s either, A, something that they have a difficult time patenting or B, just because they simply don’t have the financial resources to do it. Katie: Yeah, that’s fascinating. Yeah, or I hear people say often, you know, like, there’s not a double-blind clinical study on this, therefore, I’m not gonna take it and I think back to the sepsis studies that were done in some of the E.R’s where doctors found, like, they could take sepsis rates down to…like death rates from sepsis down 40% of what they were, but yet, like, so many hospitals were hesitant to come on board with it because, like, well, there’s not clinical research on this. And they said, “Yeah, but in our ER, fewer people are dying, and it’s vitamin C. There’s also not a lot of financial incentive, because it’s vitamin C. ” Ian: And that’s actually I think the bigger issue there really is, unfortunately, it’s the financial incentive in a lot of cases if you can’t patent it. Because I’ve seen other things like DMSO and things like that, where I think DMSO has one approval for, if memory serves interstitial cystitis. But otherwise, it’s not approved, but it has its, you know, old school horseland. It’s got a tremendous amount of uses. You know, I keep it at the house because if you work out, if you pull a muscle, like I pulled my hamstrings, open the DMSO, slather the DMSO, instantly tasted garlic, bruising goes away, swelling comes out, you feel good again, and you can move. That’s amazing. I mean, it’s an amazing compound, but they couldn’t patent it and get it pushed through as something that, you know they could get exclusivity so research kind of died on the vine. And also the double-blind clinical studies, because it makes you taste garlic instantly. It’s hard to fake that. Katie: Yeah, that would be an issue. I think the last couple of years, one of the big lessons for me has been, like, we know now more and more health is so personalized and everybody reacts differently to so many different things. But what I’ve really come to realize is, at the end of the day, and I’ve said this before, we are each our own primary healthcare provider. I feel like I had tried so many different systems and they never worked exactly the same way for me. And the reason was, I had to figure it out myself. And I think when you make that mental switch into I am the one totally in charge of my health and I can work with practitioners who could help me, but the responsibility lies with me, it lets you step into a place of being mentally willing to try some of these things that, you know, anecdotally have evidence or that other people you know have tried, and that you’ve seen effects from, and gauged that response in yourself without needing the clinical studies or. .. Ian: Yeah, but you know, again, there most people I think are geared towards wanting to receive permission to do something in lieu of actually taking the responsibility to go, “Okay…” And I know you’ve done this, because when we talked, you were incredibly well-versed in so many of these things that you have obviously taken the time to do the research and you really do the deep dive and figure out what’s going on. And anytime you’re dealing with your health, I assure you, no doctor, unless they’re married to you or your relation, you know, with your parent or something is going to be as concerned with your well being as you are. And you know, it’s not so much that I don’t believe, you know, the Hippocratic Oath, I get it but I really do think your health is more important to you, but it’s a responsibility, right? You’ve been gifted with this amazing body. And honestly as a researcher, I don’t know how anybody who does research on, you know, physiology of any sort of animal can look at it and not be just in awe of this. I mean, it’s a huge gift. But you know, with any gift, there comes a responsibility. So yeah, I totally agree with that. You’ve gotta take the reins, be your own primary care provider. That’s such a good way I’m gonna completely rip that off. It’s a great way to say that you are your own primary care provider. Yeah. I 1,000% agree with you. Katie: The funny part is I’ve started listing myself as that on medical forms, and I now couldn’t walk into labs, and they’ll let me order my own labs because I’m my own primary healthcare provider. It’s funny. Ian: That’s genius. Katie: Okay. So circling back to ozone, I just started taking this. I’m really excited to gauge the results myself because I have the old school ozone generator that you mentioned. I actually have two. I have this really big one that involves the whole oxygen generator plus the ozone sand then I have a smaller one that we mostly just use to keep our coal punch clean because it just generates it in the water. And those are great, but both of them are so… Like, there’s so many moving pieces and getting it all figured out. Plus, like you said, you don’t accidentally inhale it, either. Ian: Yeah, no, you don’t. And for anybody, when we were playing with this last year in the lab, and really tinkering with ozone because I played with it at a friend’s office before, you know, he is medical guy, and we played with it in his office because he has a couple of systems. And then I got three systems and started working with it. And it’s really cool. But yeah, you do not wanna breathe it. One of them was a very large generator, that’s a whole house generator. And when you crank it up, if you make the error of walking in front of it, you just about can’t stop coughing. Yeah, it’s very caustic. And like, I wouldn’t recommend that for work on yourself unless you really have a lot of time and you’re very committed to doing the research on it. Again, that’s kind of why I, you know, did all the autohemotherapy and the pills is because the idea is you can provide something in a way that you don’t have to do much heavy lifting anymore. You just, you know, take that and move on. There are better things that people can spend their time on. I mean, unless you really have a thing for, you know, insufflation, how about it? Again, not my bag. Katie: Another way I do still use it as a mom and I’m curious your take on this, they make ozonated oils and they sell them almost as an alternative to like Neosporin. So it’s like a topical thing for wounds to keep infection from happening? Ian: Yeah, it’s fantastic for that. That’s actually that’s one of the newer things that we’re about to come out with at Biocharged is atopical because if you… Again, the same thing, yes, just putting ozonated oils on, it’s really great. It doesn’t have the same detriments that a lot of other topical agents have. But it needed improvement. There were things you could do to amp up the performance because regenerative medicine and wound healing has been something that I’ve been very curious and working on. I was, you know, taking pig bladder and breaking it down in the lab. We joke and we call it pixie dust, but it’s to make an extracellular matrix. And so you use that as kind of a… When you put it in a wound, you can use it as a cellular scaffolding. And when it’s on your tissues and wounds, your body senses it and starts to pump out stem cells and will actually fill in the matrix with your own stem cells. But all of that to say that, yeah, we’ve been working with that kind of stuff for a while. I personally am a big fan of regenerative medicine. So, when I started working with the ozone products, and we started looking at, you know, like, where can we make a difference here? That was one of the big ones was, well, as a topical agent, we can do some things that are just brilliant that haven’t been done before and that will make a big dent. So yeah, huge fan. And very shortly, that’s probably gonna be the second thing that actually comes to market is our topical. Katie: I’m excited for that. It seems like it would be really phenomenal for, like, wound healing and scarring and all of that burns. Yeah. Ian: There’s a whole lot of applications that people are already using it. It’s just not what it could be. Yeah, and a lot of times, that’s what you find is you find… You know, because that tech has been around for a long time. No one’s just taken the time to innovate it a bit and bring it up to date because we really do. We have… You know, Tesla did that stuff in 1904. And aside from the fact that people have missed most of what was really beneficial about it, they’ve been using the same stuff that he did, just a lesser version of it for over 100 years. And, you know, so, now, luckily, I have the benefit of having the resources, you know, to take things and run them through my lab and then the lab at a university I work with and, you know, do tests on people and we can really see in a very short order of, like, how do you make this stuff really spectacular to do something that people haven’t been able to do with it before? Because it just is a bass compound. It’s great. It’s all-natural. You’re using natural oils and a natural process. It’s, you know, more reactive for viruses and bacteria than most other things are and it doesn’t have the downsides, you know, natural products are aces in that regard. I mean, if you have something that you have to rattle off, you know, 15 chemical names before you in describing that particular molecule, it’s generally not as good as if you can say, “You know, like, what are you having for lunch?” Apples? You know. Katie: Yeah, from the food perspective, I say that a lot, like the fewer the ingredients…or eat food, that is ingredients, not food that has ingredients. Like, that’s a commonality amongst all of these different dietary trends. Eat real foods that are whole foods. Ian: And we all know that, right? It’s not like you have to market somebody like… Though now there is a lot of marketing for different types of, you know, foods and things but like a banana. I mean, you don’t really have to market it that much other than maybe putting it at the front of the store. It’s really kind of people just intrinsically know, “Oh, I need to eat that. That’s good.” You know, I can’t remember the last time I saw a commercial for lemons. Katie: Right? That’s true. They don’t need marketing. Ian: Brought to you by the American Broccoli Council. Katie: That is interesting. Yeah. So, okay, I would love to talk about dosing. I mentioned I just started taking this. I would love to hear, A, what you did. So what you personally did, because we can always share our own personal experience and as I figure out what I’m personally gonna do. Ian: Fair amount of mistakes is actually what I made. Katie: But also, the other thing I was gonna bring up here is that there is a trend, I think I see it more with guys, but that the idea that if some is good, more is better. And this seems like a substance you would not wanna take that approach early on. Ian: One thousand percent the wrong approach. And I know because I talked to a friend, asking for a friend. Yeah, so, in this case, when I first started playing with everything, once I got the higher strength worked out and figured out how to do the signaling cascades, I took about 900 milligrams of it, which is less than fun. Because it is… You notice it, you can feel it, you get a really intense gastric response and you will be indisposed for a bit. So really, the dosing, all you legitimately need is one capsule. And I recommend that people take it in the morning because it’s best, in my experience, if you have kind of that pro-oxidative insult in the morning because then your body mobilizes. So for the rest of the day, you’re kind of riding on that wave. And you know, you amped that up, your body responds, it’s naturally protected, you have more energy, and you can just use that to kind of cruise through the day. So that’s why I just take one capsule in the morning. And in terms of dosing recommendation, that’s it, I just do one capsule a day no more. And, you know, some people say, “Oh, I don’t feel anything if I just take the one capsule.” That’s not necessarily a bad thing. You know, if your intestinal Flora is reasonably balanced, you’re not going to notice a huge die-off reaction. If you have Candida or something like that, dial it back, take one every other day or every three days. And then, again, you know, I would take it for… I mean, some people, like, if they’re kind of borderline and they really don’t have their diet in check or they’re trying to, you know, elicit a specific response, like they have some goal in mind, don’t wait for it, just, you know, jump in but take a few months and do that. And then kind of back off and do it periodically and see. Again, just know your body. I mean, we are, as you said, our own primary care provider, right? So yeah, just kind of sends it out. But really the recommendation and we arrived at the size of 300 milligrams because after taking 900, that was a mistake. Taking 750 still a very bad mistake. Five hundred not really so bad but if somebody had Candida, difficult. But at 300, you can have it and by the time you noticed that you have the response, you can just simply dial it back a bit, and you’ll not have the same, you know, kind of issues that you would have. So 300 is a really good safe number. It’s gonna have an effect. It’s gonna get a response. But it’s not gonna be something where, you know, like, I don’t know, like, saying taking a bunch of NAD where as we… We’ve both done… We take a little too much, and once the IV is dripping, you go, “Oh, I made a miscalculation.” You know, and you get… Yeah. Katie: Yeah. Okay, that’s good to know. And so if someone has… If they know they have an acute issue like Candida or parasites, they could even go slower, like, one every couple of days? Ian: Yeah, one every couple of days. I mean, the idea is to provide the benefit without having somebody have a hertz reaction or something like that, because having had them before, they’re awful. You don’t wanna do that, you know. And in this way, again, the reason it styled back to, like, 300mgs because it’s a very mild dose, you can take it and it’s gonna have an effect. In fact, a lot of the things… It’s nice when something actually goes out and the product hits the market and people start taking it because all these people, you know, call in, they write in, they email me, they hit us up on Instagram, and they have all these comments about, “Oh, it did this or it did this and I’ve had this,” which is awesome because you get a sense of what people are actually using it for, which oftentimes is not necessarily like a lot of people, you know, they want to nix sugar cravings for weight loss. That’s like a common thing. You know, you see comments about it. For me, it was really just about overall gut health. I wanted something that would, you know, basically replace me having to go to my doctor’s office and pull blood and pump it back and do autohemotherapy and that worked like a charm. Katie: So interesting. Today’s episode is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals. They’re on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet. And they’re doing just that with their clean, natural remedies. They have a whole hive of products packed with immune-loving essentials so you can feel awesome all day every day. One of the ones that I love, especially this time of year is called B.Soothed. Helps you feel like yourself again if you get into any of the winter yuckys. And it’s powered by really potent natural ingredients, like pure buckwheat honey, elderberry, chaga mushroom, bee propolis, and olive leaf extract. It’s completely free of drugs, dyes, dirty chemicals, and refined sugars, so you can feel great about taking it or giving it to your kids. And the best part is it tastes really good. 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Each nutrient-packed serving delivers 750% of your daily recommended intake of vitamin C – an amount meant to help you thrive, not just survive. Most other vitamin C supplements are derived from GMO corn and only contain one fraction of the vitamin – ascorbic acid. Their Essential C Complex contains the entire spectrum of Vitamin C with absolutely no synthetic vitamin C… just organic superfoods! Check this and all of their products out and save 15% at paleovalley.com/mama for 15% off. Katie: Explain what’s going on in a hertz reaction for anybody who doesn’t understand what’s happening physiologically there. Ian: So, your liver and kidneys generally are the ones that kind of get the biggest insult when you have a herxheimer reaction, so it’s a massive die-off. And you cause such a die-off of some sort of harmful bacteria that you literally cannot process all of the cellular debris from those things coming out of your body. And you will get chills and, you know, can vomit and, you know, feel really groggy, almost, like, you know, keto flu kind of thing. You’ll have flu-like symptoms for a couple of days. And literally, it’s your kidney and liver not being able to process things out rapidly enough to keep up with the level of debris that is trying to be pushed through the system. Katie: And so, the answer besides going slower and not doing that to yourself, again, I would guess would be things, like make sure you’re well-hydrated, make sure you’re sleeping well, maybe sweating, things like that. Ian: Yeah, and binders, binders, binders, binders. You know, take binders that are going to help get those things out of your system without allowing them to hit your system. Personally, I use carbon60 because, you know, it’s a nanoscopic binder. And it’s really great. Activated charcoal is great. Activated clay is great. There are a couple of companies that make really phenomenal binders. And we can put some stuff in the show notes. And I’d recommend that anybody who thinks that they have some acute condition like that, just take it with binders. It doesn’t impact the effectiveness of it at all. You’re still going to get all the benefit from it. It just it’s kind of a safety net, if there’s, you know, something that you sense is really amiss, and just take it with some binders and call it a couple of activated charcoal. And, you know, do that maybe 30 minutes before you take the capsule and pop the capsule. Katie: Okay. We’ll put links to those in the show notes as well. So, you guys listening, I will circle back with you on some of these papers as well. And some of the research I’m always fascinated, too. Ian: Yeah, we’ve got a bunch of it on the Biocharged website, that it’s biocharged.co. And just go there and you can like to science and there’s a linier of articles and it’s all, you know, annotated well and, you know, you can see all the references and a lot of the studies, and there are quite literally thousands of them if you really go digging. And at some point, it’s surprising, honestly, when you find something that’s this beneficial, that someone hasn’t made a play to try and turn into a dragon, capitalize on it. But a molecule like this is as you said difficult to patent so not so much a push for that. Katie: Well, and as we get close to the end of the time, I wanna do a teaser. We’re not gonna be able to go into these, which is perfect because we already know there’s gonna be at least two more episodes with you. I would love to… You’ve mentioned C60, so we’re gonna do a whole episode on that. But I wanted to be able to just touch on it briefly so we can put a link to that in the show notes as well, and so people can start having a passing understanding. Ian: Yeah, so Carbon 60, it’s an allotropic form of carbon, which is the fancy chemistry way of saying it’s a form of carbon atoms that are clustered in some different configuration. Anytime you have an atom and it has a different configuration, but it’s all just that atom, it’s called an allotrope. So, in this case, you’ve got diamonds, graphite, and fullerenes and amorphous carbon too. But in this case, it’s a soccer ball. Literally, it’s a truncated icosahedron. So it’s 60 carbon atoms clustered together in a soccer ball. And it was discovered in 1985. And all the guys, one of them is a friend and all the guys that discovered it got a Nobel Prize for it because it’s really impactful. And a lot of people initially thought it was gonna be something that wouldn’t have biological application. But as it turns out, I think the most profound implications of that molecule are actually biological because it’s a tremendous detoxification agent, antioxidant. It’s a buffer against EMFs. You know, it actually will buffer against doses of radiation better than, you know, iodine would. It’s also a chemo protectant. There’s a litany of things. And, you know, I have multiple patents in the space,and quite a few more coming up in the near future, because there are a whole host of us that have been doing lots of research on it for, you know, quite a while, in my case about a decade. But it’s really got some tremendous potential for people who are living in environments that are less than ideal. And, you know, if you lived in, you know, a perfect environment, say a thousand years ago and you had clean air and clean water, you would not need it. You know, just do your thing. But now, since our environments are already damaged, as soon as we roll into them, it’s just a bit of an edge because it’s not only a detoxification agent. The thing that I think is most beneficial is it actually goes into your mitochondria and stays there and it can act as a buffer against reactive oxygen species, which, interestingly enough, a paper from some fellows I know, and another company doing research just came out and they were pointing out kind of a counterpoint to that, you know, some of the research is showing that you don’t see those responses all the time. And that’s true. You don’t see it all the time. But typically, you do see that, and it’s something that most people need. I mean, everybody’s individually tooled, but I would say 90% of the cases, I’ve seen having given carbon 60 well over, I don’t know, probably 10,000 people at this point, it’s phenomenally beneficial. I would recommend it. It’s the only supplement even though I don’t take it every day, I cycle it so I can keep up with what I was talking to earlier about the hormetic stress response. I cycle it so that my body doesn’t downregulate its production of glutathione and SOD2. But it’s fantastic. I don’t like the way it tastes, which is something I’m rectifying currently, but I’ve still taken it, you know, with complete regularity for the past nine years, just because it is, biologically speaking, the most beneficial thing I can find. And I mean, seriously at 93% extension of lab animals, that kind of lit my socks up. And I had actually done that because another group in France, a doctor there had done the same sort of study and found a 90% extension of lifespan, and I thought that can’t possibly be right. But, you know, what the heck? I’ll check it out. And so, after doing the test, sure enough, a 93% extension and I think a 3% variation, and stuff like that is enough that anybody should look at it. And when it’s something like carbon, I mean, we’re carbon-based organisms, it’s not detrimental in any way, shape, or form. And you can’t really say that it’s a nerve because it has all these interesting properties that it conveys, you know, because it buffers oxidative stress at the mitochondrial level, which has the net effect of making more energy production. So, you’re not actually making more energy, but you’re not losing as much while your body’s trying to produce it. So, the net effect is, you get a big bump. And I think in the lab, we found an 18 at the low-end percent increase and a 58.3 at the high-end increase. And that’s a lot of energy. You know, if you can get 153% of your normal energy for the day, you can do a lot more and your recovery time is better. And just in terms of strength, you know, and this is I think, one area where a lot of people will probably find interest in it is your strength will go up just by virtue of muscle recruitment, you know, and skeletal muscle activation, without any change in diet or anything else, just by modulation of, you know, losing energy at a cellular level. Katie: This is an experiment I’m just about to jump into. I’m very excited. So I have to do it an episode after I have a little bit of experience. I wish I had it now because I just did a incredibly tough workout today and so I’m already sore same day, so it’s gonna be a fun recovery. Ian: And surprisingly, when you’re doing real hardcore workouts, you will notice the effects because a lot of people wory that they won’t get a hypertrophic effect where you’re able to build muscle. You are able to build muscle. You just don’t have the same degree of soreness because it nixes a lot of the lactate buildup and things like that. So you’re not going to feel the same pains in the second-day soreness that you would in your recovery time because it amps up the cycle inside your cells, your recovery time’s better. But we can go into all that, but you’re gonna know this firsthand because you’re gonna do it and actually get the data for yourself. Katie: Yeah, and I’m quantifying everything right now. So it’d be fun to watch and fun to circle back and do a whole episode just going deep on that. Ian: Well, it’s interesting because people really do. They think the idea of, like, oh, well, you can take a substance and boost your strength by 10% or 15% with no changes in anything else. And it sounds peculiar, but that’s just, you know… When you modulate loss in a system, you know, it’s like putting oil on a car, you can run them without it, but they don’t run so well or so long without it. You know, when you actually lubricate things properly and keep it from burning up, it functions more effectively. Katie: So, another area, I’m gonna experiment and I’m hoping you’ll be my sherpa in this too is the idea of peptides, and especially some really specific uses people are using them for now. We definitely don’t have time to go into a whole lot and there’s so many areas to go into on this as well. But can you just kind of give us a teaser of what peptides are and why they’re so fascinating? Ian: So, yeah, amino acid groupings in quantities of 50 or fewer is classes of peptide as opposed to a protein. And so, it’s a natural substance like, you know, alanine or something like that. Katie: Or collagen, I believe is a peptide? Ian: And collagen is a protein. Katie: A protein. Okay. I’ve seen collagen peptides. Okay. Ian: They are collagen peptides. So, yeah, and it’s kind of interesting. There’s some things that you can aggregate in larger and smaller clusters. And some people will call something by a couple of different names. But yeah, technically speaking, we’ve been using them a lot in the laboratory setting because you can use things like one of the common ones people use is BPC 157 body protected compound. And it will cause remyelination of nerves and drop inflammatory responses. A lot of people use it on… Like, I personally use it on my knees to repair a knee where I had damage from playing soccer. And then there are other things like vasointestinal peptides, you know, for your GI tract that will close the xylem junctions so you can fix leaky gut. Then there’s, you know, GHK-Cu, which is a copper peptide that is phenomenal for skin because actually, it stimulates collagen and fibronectin repair. And so, you know, firm your skin up and make it really pretty, and supple, and soft and elastic. And anything that helps with you know, elasticity in skin is generally speaking pretty good. And also called Genesis, you know, something that will actually stimulate the production of collagen, because a lot of times, you don’t want to hit something head-on, what you’re really trying to do is figure out the cofactors that actually trigger your body to stimulate production of your body’s own whatever, you know, rather than, you know, inject something. You trigger your body so it produces its own collagen because, you know, that’s perfectly matched for your physiology. Katie: Interesting. So we’re gonna have whole episodes on both of those, both C60 and peptides. So you guys stay tuned for those. As we get to the end of our time, another question I love to ask is if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life, and if so, what they are and why? Ian: Oh, yeah, let’s see. “Stalking the Wild Pendulum” is a great one by a fella named Itzhak Bentov. And it’s a bit esoteric, but I think it alters your perception about how things may go together and be pieced together. “The Razor’s Edge” by W. Somerset Maugham, similarly about a fellow

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