Is Eco-Purchasing on the Rise? (Rebroadcast)
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #24: With a nation-wide commitment to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050 as well as an increase in climate change awareness, has eco-purchasing in Canada increased? In other words, are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health? Dianna Miller, Chief of ENERGY STAR shares about the ENERGY STAR program and how it works to not only motivate the production of energy-conscious products, but also to help homeowners and businesses make energy-conscious buying decisions. Related Content & Links: www.energystar.gov Transcript: Dan Seguin 00:00 Hey everyone. Welcome to the summer rewind edition of the think energy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy Days of Summer, we're bringing back some blast from our podcast past, we'll be reintroducing some of the most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest, perhaps not a coincidence. But they're all focused on the future of the energy sector with themes like renewable energy, green innovation, and being eco conscious. So I hope you truly enjoy our summer rewind edition. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back September 6 to kick off another exciting season of the think energy podcast. I'm Dan Sega from hydro Ottawa, and I'll be hosting the think energy podcast. So here's today's big question. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders, as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned. as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the think energy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The think energy podcast. The demand for green buildings, electric vehicles, and renewable generation is changing the way we think about and use energy. So much, so it influences what we purchase. The demand is a result of the rising concern for climate change, which is creating a new reality for our planet, but also a new reality for brands and consumers. Consumers want clean technology solutions, sustainability, less pollution. And they want brands that are just as concerned about the environment as they are. More and more consumers want to do business with companies that are environmentally conscious. And they're using their wallet to send that message loud and clear. Now, chances are you likely know the ENERGY STAR brand, its logo has become the trusted symbol for energy efficiency products, particularly in the home appliance space. But did you know the ENERGY STAR certification extends to homes, buildings and industrial plants in the US alone, ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 3 billion metric tons since 1992. That's equivalent to an annual emission of over 600 million cars. And talk about brand recognition. In its recent survey, more than 90% of US households recognize the ENERGY STAR logo. So let's begin with today's big question. With an increase in climate change awareness. Has environmental purchasing increased meaning are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health. Joining us today I have from the Office of Energy efficiency. Diana Miller, Chief of Energy Star. Welcome, Diana. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Maybe you can start by providing our listeners with a quick overview of what it is that you do. And what is the Energy Star program. Dianna Miller 03:49 So ENERGY STAR is a program that was created by the United States Environmental Protection Agency in Canada actually has administered it since 2001, via an agreement at its core ENERGY STAR is a binary label. So the presence of an ENERGY STAR label on a product or a new home an existing building or an industrial facility just designates that entity as energy efficient. So ENERGY STAR is basically a program where we do all of the work, we do the research and the homework and we kind of crunch all the numbers and come up with a really good way to show that a product is efficient. And then our stakeholders, our partners go out and certify those things products, homes, buildings and industrial facilities to those standards. And then they slap a label on it and it makes it really, really easy then for consumers and citizens to go and find the most energy efficient thing really quickly and reliably. So that's what the program is. And what I do, I have actually two functions. So I'm the brand manager for energy star in Canada so I just kind of help promote the brand and protect brand integrity. On behalf of the Government of Canada, I also administer the Energy Star program for products. So like I said before, we certify a lot of different things, including products, there's about 80 different product types that we certify. And so I also manage the products program element. Dan Seguin 05:15 Very cool. That's where we connect is my job here is to preserve, protect and promote the brands. Right, so Okay. What is the role of the Energy Star program to achieve Canada's net zero emission future by 2050? And to build a net zero emissions economy? How important is it to expand the numbers of retrofits in a year? Last part of it? Lastly, how does the program help the environment? Dianna Miller 05:45 Well, to start with the role of Energy Star, and achieving a net zero economy is, again, I'm going to go back to the simplicity of the Energy Star program. So ENERGY STAR is something that I think every Canadian has seen 80% of Canadians recognize and understand it. So ENERGY STAR is a really easy, accessible way for Canadians to take action on a day to day basis. And every tiny incremental action, whether it's buying a light bulb, a fridge, a heating system, a certified home or leasing space, in a certified office building, all of those tiny incremental actions add up to really, really big energy savings. So I want to talk about how the Energy Star program helps the environment, one of the key things that ENERGY STAR achieves is just doing the same amount of work, or performing the same functions using less energy. And whether you're looking at energy that's, you know, generated by coal, whether you're looking at Burning gas, or fossil fuels, or even clean energy like hydro energy, using less energy just means that that energy that you're not using can be used for other things. In Canada, while we do have a lot of very, very clean hydro energy, using too much of it during peak hours means that then all of a sudden, you've got not clean energy that has to kick in. And so if you use less of it, then you're not having to switch over to the not clean energy. Dan Seguin 07:22 Yeah, I think we're gonna have to set ourselves up, though. Because on that storage will come into play. When we're talking about solar, when we're talking about wind, those will be two big players. And but to make those more efficient, you'll need the storage component to work with that also. Dianna Miller 07:40 Oh, absolutely. You know, the other thing that I just like to point out is that ENERGY STAR isn't just about using less energy, I mean, it's definitely the key element of the program. So it's an Energy Efficiency Program. And using less energy potentially has has the role of less fossil fuel emissions. However, I think the other thing that we have to look at is ENERGY STAR wades into water territory. So the United States government administers a WaterSense program. And so when you're taking a look at the amount of water that a washer uses, or a dishwasher, ENERGY STAR really tries to cut back on those as well. You can also look at electronics and how they're trying to use less rare earth metals and trying to look at recyclability and things like that. So ENERGY STAR is about more than just energy use. It's definitely the primary function of the program. But definitely, we're looking at other things, even in terms of the controllability of a product. So if a product is connectable to, to the internet, then you know, you can control the product so that it's using less energy at a time where maybe there's dirty energy generation. So being able to connect to a product as a consumer or even as a utility, you know, you can reduce the amount of energy that a product is using when you're using fossil fuel generation. Dan Seguin 08:59 Well, I just actually subscribed to Hydro Quebec through Hilo program, which is basically them setting up sensors all around the house, where they can actually go on a day where there's a bitter cold, and they will actually just via an email, send me send me a notification that they will bring down the temperature at home and am I okay with that? And then they incentivize you to do more. Dianna Miller 09:26 That's right. And ENERGY STAR has built in principles of connectivity into a lot of their different product categories. They're moving in that direction with what they call the Smart Home Energy Management System, where they're, you know, working with service providers and utilities as well as manufacturers to kind of come up with an ideal scenario where a home can be more easily controlled and use less energy, especially at marginal periods where you know, you're worried about that fossil fuel energy generation, Dan Seguin 09:53 what level of influence does the Energy Star label have on the purchasing decision of consumers Dianna Miller 10:00 Over the last few years, ENERGY STAR Canada has. We do Public Opinion Research. I'll say that so every couple of years we put out a national survey, we try to figure out, you know, how aware Canadians are of the ENERGY STAR symbol of the program, if they understand what it means and that kind of thing. And one of the things that we started asking is, for people who have actually purchased an ENERGY STAR certified product or home, did that symbol affect that purchase decision? And overwhelmingly, the answer is, yes. So out of people that have purchased ENERGY STAR certified things in Canada in 2018, I think there was about 75% said it's because, or maybe not uniquely, because but definitely the symbol played a role that certification work. Dan Seguin 10:45 Absolutely. Like you just look at Windows as an example. Dianna Miller 10:48 Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a really big one, especially in a lot of the country. Now, ENERGY STAR certified windows are incented by different provincial or utility incentive programs. Because we know that they perform better. And, you know, people go into a store, that's not even the symbol influences them. It's, you know, just the knowledge that they're better people go into a store and ask for them by name. So yeah, Dan Seguin 11:15 how does the energuide program fit into this equation? Dianna Miller 11:20 inner guide and ENERGY STAR complimentary programs. So now, just as a caveat, energuide is a symbol that or a rating program that exists also for vehicle labels, Soviet vehicle fuel consumption, as well as home energy consumption. So I'm speaking specifically about the integrated label on products. But the great thing about the Energuide label is, like I said, it complements the Energy Star label in that it's not a binary label. So where ENERGY STAR either is there or isn't there on major appliances in room air conditioners in Canada, it's required by law, so it's always there. And what it does is it tells you how that product that you're looking at performs among all of the products that exist in Canada. So you know that that there's a scale on it. And it's going to say the best performing product and the worst performing product, and there's an arrow that's going to tell you where the product that you're looking at right now, is in terms of everything else. Now, if it's an ENERGY STAR certified product, what's cool is that you're going to see an ENERGY STAR symbol on that label. So that you know that okay, the product is ENERGY STAR certified. Okay, and it performs here, I could perhaps be getting something even better than this. So I mean, if you're looking for the absolute best efficiency, you know, that energuide label is going to help push you even further than, you know, basic ENERGY STAR levels. So it's kind of cool. It's also going to kind of give you an idea of like I said, were in a product in a product class that product performs so that you know, you know how much room you have to move, you have a general idea of maybe the energy savings that could be achieved, and therefore your bills savings that could be achieved by moving to a more efficient product. Dan Seguin 13:05 We're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today are multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program? Dianna Miller 13:31 I think for those of us that work in energy efficiency, everything is an opportunity. So absolutely, I mean, I see it as an as an opportunity for the Energy Star program. In fact, ENERGY STAR launched a pilot program a couple of years ago in Canada, to address this very phenomenon that, you know, multifamily buildings are really where we're moving. I mean, high density housing is good for everybody. But that's going to require much better construction practices. And that's where ENERGY STAR comes in, you know, ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings means that the that structure is going to perform 15% better in terms of efficiency than a building built to code. And again, you know, as code moves, that level moves as well. So, I mean, for a consumer again, quick and easy, right, you're looking at a building that's got that symbol on it, you know that you're going to be moving into unit in a building where your bills are going to be lower. So it's a no brainer for consumers. So we're really hoping that this this program takes off and and shows, you know, successful numbers. I think it's super great program for builders, and I'm really hoping that builders kind of catch the energy star bug and start signing on to this program, because it's consumers are looking for that right now. Consumers are looking for better options and they don't have it in that area right now. That's why ENERGY STAR has moved into that field. So a successful pilot means that we can move that program out into the rest of the country. And so that right now, like I said, it's localized in Ontario, and we really want to see it everywhere. Dan Seguin 15:09 Is that something along the lines of what I think it was Quebec had no Volk, novo Kima is along that line. Dianna Miller 15:16 So I think the Quebec program was more associated with I don't know that it was for new construction. So the thing with energy stars were we've created a, like a specification, I guess. So we're creating a standard that builders can use. And so it's kind of like a blueprint in a way. And that's why it's, I mean, I like to emphasize ENERGY STAR for new homes ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings, it's a program that's just as much for for builders as it is for consumers. Because it's giving builders an affordable, easy way, a reliable way to build energy efficient structures, things that consumers want, and there's a huge demand for it. So and then, not only that, but ENERGY STAR sells, right, everybody knows what it means. Dan Seguin 16:05 Okay, now, we are seeing more and more cities or municipalities looking for ways to reduce costs and emissions. What makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings special? Dianna Miller 16:18 Well, I want to go back to the foundation for Energy Star certified buildings. First, if I may, the idea of certifying a building as ENERGY STAR comes first from being able to measure the energy consumption of that building reliably. And so we have the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager building benchmarking tool. And that's a mouthful. In Canada, I'll try not to say it, I'm going to shorten to the term Portfolio Manager Dan Seguin 16:46 At least you didn't use an acronym. Dianna Miller 16:48 That's true. Yeah, that's government, people tend to do that a lot. But Portfolio Manager really rocks, like, I have to say, you know, we brought it into Canada, we created unique Canadian archetypes, for different building types. So you can right now I'll use school boards as an example. Because I mean, seriously, it's, it's just, it's great. So you've got like 600 schools or something like that, and, and between your best performing school and your worst performing school, if you're not really benchmarking the energy consumption of those schools, and they could all be built exactly at the same time by exactly the same builder and they're all performing differently, you're not going to know that unless you're actually measuring the energy use. So I have to say, that's the first step. And and governments are just as interested with Portfolio Manager as they are with ENERGY STAR certification. And in fact, all across Canada and the US, Portfolio Manager ratings are becoming mandatory. So that's a very, very important first step. And then of course, the next step is once you've started measuring your energy consumption, you can start making reliable improvements, you can start understanding how changing this or that or improving this or that it's going to affect your bottom line affect your score. And, of course, yes, shoot for the moon, you know, ENERGY STAR certified buildings are the top 25% in their class. And so, you know, you've got those 600 schools, and you've got a couple that are really performing well. Yeah, you know, making a few improvements can push them up into the top 25 percentile. And then the next thing you know, you've got a certified building. And that's, that's awesome. When you're looking at office space, particularly commercial buildings, those actually sell better, you know, and they're worth more. And so for property owners and managers, it's a really big deal. But for governments, I have to say I go back to portfolio manager and you know, just having a reliable rating, a reliable score, where you can compare one building to another is good for just about everybody. Dan Seguin 18:52 Okay, Energy Star is a trusted brand that requires staying top of mind. We also know that brand health is increasingly being dictated through social media and digital channels. How do you manage brand consistency in an increasingly digital world that includes the influence of public sentiment and opinion? What can companies learn from ENERGY STAR? Dianna Miller 19:20 Well, I'll start with brand health and and for me, that equates to brand integrity. I'm really lucky and that ENERGY STAR Canada is one country in a kind of an international network of Energy Star programs owned and managed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. So we're one element that said, you know, we are I am in charge of the integrity of the brand in in Canada. One thing that we do is we're very strict with how ENERGY STAR symbols can be used. So the US government has trademarked the symbol and all of the terms here in Canada. So right They're I think that's a huge, huge deal. And then we have, for example, a brand book, we have rules associated with how you can use those symbols in those terms. And as you know, Energy Star is a program where we sign partners onto the program and those partners when they're signing as partners in the program, can you define a partner? Sure. So an ENERGY STAR partner in Canada, we call them participants. It can be a manufacturer of a product that's certified as ENERGY STAR, it could be retailers of products that are certified, it could be home builders that build ENERGY STAR certified homes. Most utilities in Canada are ENERGY STAR participants. There are social housing organizations that are ENERGY STAR participants in Canada. And we're looking to the future where we can also sign on commercial building owners and operators, perhaps is ENERGY STAR partners. So an ENERGY STAR participant in Canada is someone who signs an agreement to promote the ENERGY STAR brand, and adhere to brand rules. And there's a number of other things that they do. But it's basically a collaborative agreement where, you know, we do a little bit and they do a little bit, and we all agree that the brand is first and foremost, the most important. So like I said, we have a brand book, we have the participant agreements. The other thing that we'd like to do is provide ready made promotional material that partners and participants can use to promote the brand. So that, you know, the brand is already used appropriately. Dan Seguin 21:35 So common look and feel Dianna Miller 21:36 exactly. And then we have you know, I mean, from, from my perspective, we also have a lot of product related brand integrity action. So you know, I'm going to go and I'm going to surf websites to see whether or not somebody is marketing ENERGY STAR certified lawn mowers, right. Because just so you know, we don't certify those. And, you know, I'm gonna go and take a look at whether or not our partners are using the symbols appropriately. So brand integrity is really, really important when you're talking about social media. The other thing is, like I said, you know, we, because we have partners, we depend on our partners to promote the brand just as much as we do. And again, that's providing you know, basic material, like the brand book, to help them understand how they can and can't use the brand, ready made promotional material that they can use so they can engage with us. So I think that goes a long way, and just being consistent. And I think that that's what really helps with consumer awareness and understanding, you know, we haven't changed a lot over the years, the symbol has been the symbol for just about ever. Dan Seguin 22:38 How do you leverage technologies like video chat bots, to secure that stakeholder engagement? Dianna Miller 22:47 Not well, yet. Okay, um, you know, we're government, we, we managed to get our energy star, unique ENERGY STAR accounts, about five years ago. So since then, we've been learning, you know, it's been a learning curve. For us, we're now at the point where I think we're pretty mature in our use of Facebook and Twitter, we're learning how to do a few cooler things, you know, we like to throw in animated GIFs. And we like to see what kind of healthy memes we can use to kind of shake things up a little bit. We also know our audience. Um, I think, you know, looking to the future, were trying to find ways to integrate better video, more video, more engaging video, you know, not just the same old, same old, we do shake up our content a little bit. And so that does help. But in terms of onboarding new things, and new technologies, I think the best thing that we can do right now is optimize what we have and and gradually move towards that. But right now, the again, we're government, so we can't really be the first early adopters. But we try not to stay too far behind the pack. Dan Seguin 24:01 You're on Twitter, what platforms are you on? Dianna Miller 24:03 so right now we have a French and English, Facebook, French and English Twitter. And in the very near future, we're going to be launching a LinkedIn showcase page under the Natural Resources Canada LinkedIn page. We do use occasionally Instagram, but it's via the Natural Resources Canada Instagram accounts. So energystar Canada doesn't have its own account yet. And we don't have a whole lot of video. So we don't, we don't really do anything via YouTube. But we do have a blog. And it's not an ENERGY STAR candidate blog. It's actually an energy efficiency blog, but I'd say majority of the content has a lot to do with Energy Star. Dan Seguin 24:43 Okay, now we're going old school with rapid fire questions. Are you ready, sir? Okay. What's your biggest challenge? Dianna Miller 24:53 professionally, HR. It's hard to it's hard to quickly hire qualified people. Dan Seguin 24:59 Okay. What makes your brand unique? big sigh? Dianna Miller 25:08 Um, well, there's a lot of unique things. I mean, you know, energy store is a consumer focused brand. So we're really, really targeting people who are consumers, but it's owned by the government. That's kind of weird in and of itself, I find that that's a very unique aspect. And when that makes it challenging to manage, Dan Seguin 25:23 what's your department's greatest accomplishment? Dianna Miller 25:25 Okay, I'm gonna go old school on this one. Okay. I think the greatest accomplishment was back in the 1800s, when we were the geological survey of Canada. I think it's absolutely amazing that the people that worked for the department, then were able to, without satellites, map the topography of what was then Canada, I think it's super cool, what, you know, what they were able to accomplish. And in fact, my younger son was named after Sir William Logan. Okay. And not the x men? No, no, although, you know, he likes to think he was and I just let him. Okay. How do you measure success for your programs? So, um, when I first came to the Office of Energy efficiency, what drew me to it was the fact that at the time, we were running a building retrofit program, and account managers were measured on the petajoules. So pedajoule, being a fuel agnostic measure of energy consumption. So if you were to, you know, sign on, you know, a series of buildings to undertake energy efficiency retrofits, you know, and they could achieve X number of pedajoules of energy savings, that was a pretty big deal. And I still go back to that, I have to say, you know, Energy Star is responsible ENERGY STAR for products is responsible for, you know, between four and a half and five pedajoules of energy savings in Canada per year. I, that's pretty amazing. You know, and I still go back to that. Dan Seguin 26:57 Okay, very good. Thanks. How do you balance traditional versus social media? What are some of the successful techniques, you guys developed to boost engagement on social media and increase organic, non paid engagement. Dianna Miller 27:13 So we still do a lot of old school. Partly because ENERGY STAR has a couple of very different audiences, like I said, we're a consumer program. But you know, one of our biggest audiences is our partners, right? Okay. without, without the manufacturers that make these products and design these products without the retailers that sell them, and the utilities that help us push them, you know, we're nothing, they're the ones that actually do the bulk of the work. And so that means that I want to make sure that I'm reaching them. And so we do a lot of traditional work with, you know, just email blasts, picking up the phone and calling them, you know, webinars like, we really do try to work with our partners to make sure that they've got what they need to do great promotions and to push the brand. And then when I look at my consumer focus, absolutely, you know, that's where we try to move into the social media space and be a little bit more innovative. And I think, depending on the audience, our techniques are a little bit different. So one of the techniques that we like when it comes to and just so you know, all of our advertising or all of our engagement is non paid. advertising, advertising is kind of not really possible for us. So you know, everything is organic, one of the things that we'd like to do is, like I said, work with our partners, so our partners get a heads up every week as to what kind of social media activity we're anticipating. We give them heads up well in advance if we're doing major promotions. To give you a great example, we have a promotion that we've done in the last couple of years, called the 12 days of Energy Star. And so leading up to Christmas, probably two or three months away from Christmas, we reach out to our partners and say, Hey, you got anything you want to give away? You know, we'll facilitate that for you. If you want to give something away to consumers. We've got this great, you know, promotion, where consumers can just kind of follow us and like and share, you already have all the eyeballs. That's right. And then and then it's just drawing more attention to our partners, ENERGY STAR certified products. It's a great win for consumers, they're learning something about those products, and then you have an opportunity to win them. So I mean, our followership really increases during that time period. I mean, in terms of our engagement, it's, it blasts just about every record out of the water, in terms of engagement with government, social media, I mean, you know, you got to put the bar where it belongs. But that said, you know, it's it, I think, little tiny things like that, that are that are innovative, kind of get attention of consumers, they kind of keep them on their toes a little bit. And it also is a really great one for our partners because they like to engage with us. It really it Kind of leverages what they're already doing. And so they can amplify our message and vice versa. Dan Seguin 30:09 How about sharing some simple tips or strategies for our listeners, so they can maybe foster greater I'll say online awareness, but also to keep their audiences engaged? if it's it could be digital, but how do you how do you make that? How would what would you share? Dianna Miller 30:26 So one of the things that we like to do? First of all, we were super realistic about what we can and can't do, right? So we know what our limits are. And we also know who our audiences are. So I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not probably going to try and reach the 15 year olds, right, or I know who is already going to be interested in Energy Star. I also know that, you know, the greenies the people that are super, super sold on Energy Star, they might be more likely to amplify what we're doing. But I don't know that I'm going to change their behavior, because it's kind of already what we want. So really being serious about who our audience is, and isn't, is also helpful, because I'm not trying to cast a really, really wide net. And staying true to the brand. So, you know, we know what ENERGY STAR is and what it means we know what the look and feel of energy star is, we know that it has to be accessible, we know that it has to be wholesome, it has to be helpful. So just kind of really sticking to that type of look and feel for the brand. But then shaking things up a little bit. So because we know who our audience is, you know, we're happy to throw in a few cat memes, or great or, you know, dogs in a dishwasher or whatever, like I, you know, it's we do want to be a little bit fun, we can't really be edgy, but that doesn't, that doesn't keep us from, you know, making people smile, being a little bit silly sometimes. So, you know, throwing a wrench in the gears as we can being government. But the other thing, like I said, and I and I keep going back to this, because it's so so, so important. We really do rely on partners and partnerships and engagement with like minded organizations and individuals. We're looking at a pilot right now where we're going to start working with influencers. So like minded individuals that you know, feel that energy efficiency is important for Canada and are willing to amplify our message. Because it means something to them. And so, you know, we're looking to maybe be a little bit more innovative and a little bit more creative. But our bread and butter is really knowing who our audiences and what they want from us. Energy Star sells itself in that it already puts money back into people's pockets. It's already recognized by governments and utilities. And so it's, it's, you know, the subject of a lot of incentive programs and rebates. So that in and of itself draws a lot of eyeballs. And then what we do is just okay, we know that people are there to save money. Great. So here's some more tips. Here's other things you can do. Dan Seguin 32:59 Good. I I'm assuming that you travel a lot within within your job, sometimes. Yeah. If you had to book some, some time on a plane, and you would be in a position to select your dream seatmate. who would it be and why? Dianna Miller 33:19 Okay, this is gonna be a really boring answer. It would be somebody who falls asleep just like I do. I mean, seriously, like, if my flight is over three hours. I like to have a window seat. I stick my head on the bulkhead, and I and I literally, I just, I put in earplugs. I do, like, I'm so boring. I was Dan Seguin 33:37 not expecting this. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I hope you enjoyed the old school rapid fire we had a few seconds ago. I'll give it a shot again. All right, with a few more Beatles or Drake, Drake. Cats or dogs? Definitely dogs, scotch or wine? Neither. Okay. Yoga, or CrossFit. I don't exercise. Dianna Miller 33:58 Okay. Dan Seguin 34:01 I'm allergic. Okay, Diana, we've reached the end of the podcast. So thank you so much for joining us today. If someone wanted to reach out and connect, how would they do it? Dianna Miller 34:12 My best advice is to go and I'm not just saying this to brush people off either. It's to go to to go to one of our social media accounts and inbox us or to go to energy startup dc.ca and contact us that way. And the reason being because there's somebody on my case to answer them because somebody actually manages the cap, and they can make sure that I get back to people. Dan Seguin 34:34 Okay, okay, good. That's fair. And in closing, folks, from homeowners to small businesses, right through industrial buildings, programs are available to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and to help protect our planet tomorrow. And for the future. Check out the ENERGY STAR website. I will have the link on the show notes. Again, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The thinkenergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast Be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.