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Like every industry, tech has had its ups and downs.
A bubble that burst in 2001. Regrowth. Consolidation. Facebook-ization. Uber-ization. And now a venture market like we’ve never seen, with record-high valuations and funding rounds that were once inconceivable.
So what exactly is going on?
Tony Willis, Sebastian Kayll & Matt C’de Baca have some theories. Their boutique executive recruiting firm, Renaissance Leadership, has been helping grow some of the industry’s biggest players since 2003. If anybody has any clue what’s going on — and what’s next — it’s them.
Listen to the interview to find out what we learned.
“I think you can’t follow funding rounds as a mechanism for success. Meaning just because somebody took a large Series B, C or D round, the money doesn’t necessarily matter. You really have to dig in and understand: What is the value proposition of the product and who are the leaders?”
–Matt C’de Baca
Highlights include:
What are the challenges of hiring executives in the middle of a funding bubble? What context should we be bringing to this historical moment in tech? Are we at the top of the bubble? Is that a bad thing? What should startups be looking for in an executive recruiting partner?How has the pandemic created demand for new and innovative Head of People positions?
This Week’s Guest
Tony Willis
Executive Chairman @ Renaissance Leadership
Tony Willis is the Executive Chairman of Renaissance Partners and is based in the company’s Marlow office in the UK.
Sebastian Kayll
Managing Partner & Co-founder @ Renaissance Leadership
Sebastian “Seb” Kayll is a Managing Partner & Co-founder at Renaissance Leadership and is based in the company’s Marlow office in the UK. He founded Renoir Partners in 2001, which would go on to become Renaissance.
Matt C’de Baca
Managing Partner, North America @ Renaissance Leadership
Matt C’de Baca is the Managing Partner, North America at Renaissance Leadership. He joined the company in 2015 and is based on Menlo Park.
The Startup Stack’s Host
Louis Beryl
CEO, Co-Founder of Rocketplace
Rocketplace is a curated marketplace of high quality professional service providers. A 3x founder, investor, and board member, Louis began his tech career as a partner at Andreessen Horowitz. When he’s not working or podcasting, Louis enjoys cooking for his family. His pizza, he’d like you to know, is incredible.
Full Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Louis Beryl: We’ve been talking a lot on this podcast about the funding surge that started around halfway through 2020 with valuations, continuing to balloon. I think everyone is trying to understand, is it a good thing, a bad thing, or a sign of things to come today? I get a global lens and the situation with Tony Willis, Matt C’de Baca and Seb Kayll of Renaissance Leadership, a boutique executive recruiting firm with offices in the US and Europe. These guys have been at it for almost two decades. Seen tech, empires rise and fall and rubbed elbows with some of the biggest names in tech; Serge Brin and Larry Page, Marc Benioff, & Niklas Zennström along the way. But before we get into the interview, one thing to now, we had some technical difficulties with this recording. Lots of lines, lots of time zones, lots of countries starting with this sweets joke. Seb told one, and it was hilarious let me tell you. I’d retell it, but I wouldn’t do it justice. You’ll just have to trust me. And with that onto the interview.
[00:01:00] I’d love to jump into the. The founding of Renaissance. So, Tony, I know you, um, you founded this company two decades ago or so, and I would love to hear a little bit more about, you know, when you started Renaissance, you know, what was the opportunity you were seeing and why, and why did you start it?
Tony Willis: Okay. Yeah. So, well, prior to that, I, um, had spent. Uh, 10 years working for a startup in London called Harvey Nash, which was a kind of forerunner in the senior technology recruitment market. And we built that into a great company. We IPO in on the London stock exchange in 1997. Um, and at its peak, we were, you know, a thousand people, uh, global. Uh, and I was running the European, uh, executive search practice, uh, across eight countries in Europe. So that was going great guns, but then we couldn’t hit the buffers, uh, as you know, .com boom, the .com [00:02:00] 1.0.
Louis Beryl: Yeah.
Tony Willis: But that bubble burst in 2001 and nine 11 as a telco crash. And so, um, I came out at that point and was going to cost me around for what to do next. Um, and I’d always enjoyed working in, particularly during the .com boom, first time around working with founders. Uh, early stage companies. And so I bumped into a guy that I knew in London called Ben Anderson, um, who, uh, uh, had been at another company called Robert Walters. And he’d set up this business called Renoir Partners, which I guess was the kind of 4 runner for, uh, Renaissance, um, as much as they were targeting those a boutique firms.
So I would think early stage tech companies in Europe and doing leadership team hires. So I joined, um, Ben. In 2002, maybe that’s where I met Seb. Seb was there, um, as well. Um, and that was good. Well, you know, and we acquired, uh, Christian and Timbers, uh, in London and they’re quite out business in, uh, [00:03:00] in San Francisco.
So we became Renoir, Christian and Timbers, you know? So we worked with Jeff Christian. But then unfortunately we acquired another company, which is an RPO firm, you know, recruiting process outsourcing. And at that point, you know what, that doesn’t really sit well with executive search it’s too far down the value chain, um, kind of your mess for less recruiting.
Um, so I was kind of hankering after doing my own thing. To actually Seb and I then peeled out of Renoir, Christian and Timbers, and set up a Renaissance since 2003. And it was a kind of a link there, you know, Renoir being a Renaissance artist and Renaissance. So that was the kind of, that was a kind of link. When and I, yeah, we, we peeled away with such a work closer to home. Um, basically the London’s version or the UK version of Silicon Valley, which is the, the M4 corridor. Um, we’re about 30 miles West of London with all the, uh, the big US accorded firms that have their European hedge cures. Um, yeah. And, and that’s how we started.
And we started out in a small service office, um, in a town called [00:04:00] Maidenhead, um, just west of London. Um, with the two of us and a part-time finance director, uh, and they’re going to PA and we got going it.
Louis Beryl: Yeah. And Seb you were there at the very beginning, you know, what was it that you, you know, the value proposition that you and Tony were talking about, you know, in those early days about, you know, how are you really differentiating yourself?
Seb Kyall: The work we do is interesting. Okay. So, you know, if you want to technology, there’s plenty of things you can do. You can, you can do divisional heads for IBM or EMC or these big tech companies. And it’s square pegs, square holes it was pretty dull. But when you work with emerging tech, when you work with the companies that really define and make a difference, It’s just a different ball game.
I went to Stanford in 2001, 2002, and I met Serge and Larry skateboarding around, but just raise their series aid. Those, they were founded [00:05:00] Google. I mean, it was just a different ball game. And that is what makes it interesting because every single day, when we work with these companies, there are category defining companies that are doing things that are different and that makes it intriguing. And that’s kept me for the last 20 years. That’s why I’ve loved. Yeah, it makes complete difference.
Tony Willis: We had Mark Benioff from Salesforce, came into the office when he was setting up Salesforce. We had Niklas Zennström and when you’re setting up Skype. So I think work in early stage tech is you real access to subsets to these incredible entrepreneurs right at the start of their, their journeys.
Louis Beryl: Was it, was the opportunity that you saw 20 years ago that there was just something enormous happening in tech. And the, you know, that was, that probably took tremendous foresight and was really smart. You know, I wonder now 20 years later, um, there’s tons of executive recruiting firms. And so how, how do you really think about differentiating Renaissance and what you do today versus versus others?
Tony Willis: Well, I think [00:06:00] it comes down to w we focused very much still on the tech and digital segments. Um, we’re working in a, to kind of epicenters of, of tech globally. So I think in San Francisco, Silicon Valley and in London, which is the, you know, the kind of sense of what goes on in tech in Europe, um, And we’re working primarily pretty much exclusively with venture capital and private equity projects about businesses.
So it really is firms at that early stage in their evolution, um, working with the entrepreneurs with the founders and with the core investors. And I think there are a few other firms that play in a similar space. Um, but very few I think they’re do it well. And I think that is still a market that is, um, you know, it’s going to dominate your buyer. Uh, a few firms like us who got into this, you know, at the, kind of the beginning of their going to web 2.0, um, cycle a roundabout that kind of mid, mid, mid two thousands.
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Louis Beryl: Matt, I’d love to, you know, you’re, you’re running the, uh, us for Renaissance and you know, I’d love to understand, um, you know, your story about how you found seb and Tony. And how, you know, what, what were you doing before and how have you changed the value prop for what Renaissance does today?
Matt C’de Baca: Uh, yeah, sure. So, uh, 12 years ago, uh, I was, uh, finishing university. Wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to be. Uh, when I grew up, uh, at a career counselor who was incredibly thoughtful and probably should have been in recruitment herself over semester, you know, spent a lot of time just getting into my head and heart had a brother-in-law who was in recruitment and based on some [00:08:00] personality traits she’d said, Hey, I think this would be an interesting field for, you know, a bright young 20 something. Uh, who you know, is still seeking clarity on, you know, where in industry he wants to go.
And so I had a girlfriend at the time who had just joined a, uh, small boutique organization called Daversa Partners. And I know last week or last episode, you had Bill Beer who’s just a tremendous recruiter in his own. Right. I interviewed with a partner from the firm, met Paul Daversa and never looked back as far as recruitment as a profession at the time there was a lot I didn’t know. And for me, I think. Uh, a real value that I have since been able to contribute in my role here at Renaissance Leadership, but just to my clients and constituents candidates in the market, I needed to spend some time internally.
So, uh, there was about a six or seven year period, uh, after I had joined, Daversa where I went to work for some larger organizations, Hewlett Packard, Rackspace, SunPower. And that was really about [00:09:00] understanding how do you take a product from idea to a monetization strategy, to a customer, um, and really understanding that technology meets go to market.
I give you that longer narrative to say there was a gentleman that I had met at Hewlett Packard who was running the enterprise services business for AMEA. And I was, uh, one of two executive recruiters running the enterprise services business for North America and a wonderful individual who’s still in leadership consulting named William Bearable. William, uh, knew Sebastian through, uh, their, uh, sons, uh, go to a university or, or go to school together. A decade earlier over a pint of Guinness, I was waxing poetic about how there had to be a better way, uh, or a more informed way. To service technology.
And so fast forward, you know, William had connected with Seb and subsequently connected with Tony and we were expanding in our North America business. Uh, and so he said, Hey, you know, fired me up or caught up, uh, called me on the phone and said, I’d love for you to [00:10:00] reconnect, uh, or connect with some colleagues of mine, uh, that I know through industry. Um, and this was five years ago, uh, picked up called Tony or spoke to Tony, spoke to Seb. Uh, loved what they were doing subsequently spoke to, you know, our former colleague and, uh, founder of the firm, uh, Ben Anderson, um, and never looked back.
Louis Beryl: Yeah. And maybe for Seb or Tony, you know, was Renaissance always imagined as a global business.
Tony Willis: Well, I think, you know, clearly if you’ve got a play in this space and really be effective working with the biggest clients globally, then you need to have a footprint in North America. And it’s very hard actually for European based firms to get that foothold. But often it’s the other way around us firms come here. And so actually, you know, the good fortunate I was over in San Francisco meeting some people and hooked up with but Nancy, we mentioned a few times there, who I had known them. We worked with a Renoir back in the day, and he was working with a, um, a [00:11:00] boutique firm called Lonergan over in the Valley, not long ago.
And yeah, he wasn’t really enjoying that and was costing around and foot for what to do next. From this perspective, I said, Ben, yeah, why don’t we get the band back together, come and set up a release, lots in the US for us. And so that’s what happened. That was 10 years ago. And so on that kind of chance for dinner.
Uh, with Ben, we decided to, to get going, um, in, in, in the Valley, I mean, Ben was living in Menlo Park and so he knew the, uh, the market pretty well and had good contacts and off we went and, you know, he set up the office in Middlefield Road and, uh, that’s where we are today.
Louis Beryl: And then how do you, how do you think about integrating between the two offices between the U S and London?
Tony Willis: Yeah. I mean, there, isn’t a huge amount of kind of day to day integration. I mean, we we’re, we have a weekly calls and we share the same kind of systems and we use Clockwork together and, and that kind of stuff. Um, we use the same accounting platforms, but I guess there are kind of three distinct markets that there are North American firms hiring in North [00:12:00] America. And honestly, that’s Matt and his team they’re growing in Europe and that’s us.
And then there are firms that you want to look at the global talent pool and that’s what we do work together. But I would say that primarily is European firms wanting to attract talent from the US I think some us firms want to bring talent in from Europe costly, you know, US citizens returning home, but you know, a lot of European firms want that from of Silicon Valley sizzle. In our business, particularly in the technology function, you know, CTO and, um, at that level. So that’s quite a big thing for us. And if you’re having a US footprint having an office and people on the ground, it makes a big difference there.
Matt C’de Baca: Look, I would add to that with this past year and COVID, uh, being a great, uh, driver of the future of work, just in terms of, you know, people working from home, leaving offices, changing the nature of, you know, what hiring teams were open to consider.
I think the benefits of being a global firm have never been more powerful than this last year. I [00:13:00] think there’s more collaboration that happens organizationally than ever before. I think that, uh, you know, one of the things that COVID has driven is created a flatter environment in terms of where people can be.
And so Sebastian and, uh, our colleagues in Europe have opportunities to drive wonderful work, uh, in New York and Boston, uh, and along the Atlantic coast. And I think being able to speak thoughtfully, uh, about, uh, or intelligently just about. You know, the global marketplace, uh, really adds a different dimension.
Um, seven, I have a pitch, uh, in two weeks time and it’s a, uh, from, um, an investment firm out of the UK. That’s looking to attract an investor from, uh, North America and, you know, an ability to be able to speak thoughtfully and have colleagues on the ground there, but also represent the marketplace here, I think is just a powerful differentiator.
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[00:15:00] Louis Beryl: I’d love to talk a little bit about your clients. Maybe you could tell me a little bit more about what does a typical client look like for you today?
Tony Willis: I mean, we are going to split it into two sectors. We are a consumer and enterprise and several enterprise, and I kind of run the consumer side of things.
So a consumer client would be, I mean, [00:16:00] typically, you know, e-commerce marketplace businesses. A great example recently would be, um, a company called Kazoo. Which is based loosely on Carvana in the US and founded 18 months ago by Alex Chesterman. They’re Europe’s kind of foremost, uh, digital entrepreneurs and, and a good client and friend and client of ours.
Um, and, uh, yeah, so we’ve helped him build out his leadership team.
Louis Beryl: Let’s stop there for a second. Actually. That’s more than I was expecting you to say. So 20 people is…is Renaissance more than just executive recruiting?
Tony Willis: We did the whole c-suite. Um, I think it’s about 10 people in the c-suite now, and then a number of the roles posting to the C-suite as well.
Where they brought out a team of 2000 people now. So it’s quite a big company. Um, and as I said, we’re about to list on the New York stock exchange in a couple of weeks. And it could be one of the largest IPO in European business. Um, over the last 10 years, it was two years. So that’s quite an extreme, it’s not [00:17:00] that, but it’s a good example of what clients work with on the consumer side.
Yeah, here in Europe…I mean, Seb & Matt, you’re working more on the enterprise side of the press. You can give a bit more of a flavor of that Seb, companies coming to Europe from US.
Seb Kyall: Yeah, I’ve done loads of those, but I mean, some of the big ones, like Qualtrics, for example, which came to Europe and we did a go to market team, and then they actually got acquired by SAP for 8 billion and then they’ve, they re-closed again.
Or we did Carbon Black, which is a Sequoia backed security business that floats on NASDAQ and got acquired by
Louis Beryl: They’re huge names. Kazoo, Qualtrics, Carbon Black. When a company is coming to you, what are the questions that, you know, if you were going to give advice. You know, to these companies when picking their next executive search firm, what are, what are the questions that they should be asking, um, when evaluating different, different search firms to work with?
[00:18:00] Seb Kyall: Companies are guilty of describing what they want their executives to look like rather than what they want their executives to achieve. And so if you take away what people might’ve done historically, but look at what you want us to over the next 12, 18, 24 months. That’s the important point. Where are you trying to get to not, who’s going to take you there.
Cause once you know where your journey is, then you can reverse engineer who can take you on that journey. And yes, if you want a good search pub, you want somebody to actually turn around and tell you you’re wrong. Your distributors are wrong. Your go to market strategy is wrong. You should do it this way.
There are other ways to do it. And, and, and when you’ve done it many, many times over 20 years, you’ve seen it different scenarios, right? So you’ve seen that, that journey many, many times. And that’s beyond finding an executive. That’s helping a company come to another to another region. And that’s what we do for them.
Tony Willis: Search has become democratized. When I started in search, you had a little black book and you’re [00:19:00] paying for access to that black book. Forget that these days with link 10, anyone can identify anybody else. And that’s not the secret sauce in search anymore. It’s about getting access to the right people, having good judgment as to, you know, out of those 20 people you talked to who really are the best four or five suited to that role.
And then being able to enroll them. Um, in that proposition, when you find the people you want to hire, I think that that’s what the best recruiters are giving to their clients. Um, access judgment and enrollment, um, not just identifications Charlie in the market, which is what it used to be. Matt.
Louis Beryl: I had a question for you because you know, in Silicon Valley, one of the things that we constantly are talking about is how hot the market is, how hard it is to pull great people out of other jobs. People are getting paid a tremendous amount of money, whether they’re at large companies: Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, et cetera, or even hot startups with millions of [00:20:00] dollars of equity that, you know, might be tied up?
So they have an IPO yet, et cetera? How do you navigate that and, you know, recruit great people out given where salaries and equity are?
Matt C’de Baca: Yeah. It’s a great question. I mean, I, I think this is, uh, I was fortunate that when I joined this organization five years ago, uh, just as a partner and then, you know, nine months ago was the managing partner for North America.
I mean, the institutional knowledge around the firm, uh, seven Tony, uh, and our colleagues. I was fortunate enough, uh, that there was strength in the brand, uh, and in the track record of delivery, that when we call into the marketplace, people recognize that, uh, a, they recognize the track record, but B they recognize, uh, how thoughtful we try to be.
About the opportunities. And so that I’m not approaching Louis, uh, for some fly by night Startup. Um, but that I’m also not approaching Louis about some fly by night executive [00:21:00] role Tony’s comment on, uh, the democratization of search. Is completely accurate. People may not be calling us for our little black book in the traditional sense.
I think we know the five to 10 to 15 to 20 calls to make on any given search, uh, that people will trust us and refer us to the right people or individuals in the marketplace where we can go have a thoughtful conversation. And then I think it’s just about believing in the companies that you work for. Right?
I mean, And even sometimes in the case of a carbon black or a Qualtrecs or a kazoo, you know, it’s not challenging to help people see that these are compelling opportunities. Maybe one differentiation point I’d say in North America, just because we are a much bigger marketplace, you know, I know this is something learned over years.
You know, I’ll look at, you know, if you look at what’s happened in marketing technology over the last five or 10 years, there are thousands of companies where it’s now about almost feature function, differentiation in marketing tech, [00:22:00] I’m really challenging.
And fortunately, uh, we’ve got the brand to do it, but, you know, looking for opportunities where entrepreneurs are pushing the edge of technology, or really trying to change the future of how a customer or how a marketplace or how society at large might be interacting with technology. Um, and one client, I would call out as a New Zealand based company called soul machines.
That’s pushing the next iteration of customer experience through artificial intelligence, literally designing digital brains, uh, digital brain stems, neural pathways, and promoting technology in the, in terms of the future of how we will engage and interact and drive.
The next wave of, of engagement. And so I think this is reflective of similar opportunities that Tony and Sebastian see as well. Um, and so when you’re calling into the marketplace with companies profound, uh, in terms of disruption to. Industries or society at large, I [00:23:00] think it’s people want to listen. And then it’s about tuning into just their curiosities and making sure that the relationship is a strong fit.
Tony Willis: It’s always been tought and I say to my guys, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. So that’s what we’re paid for. So it is tough. I think the kitchen is to try and work with the best investors and the best companies you can try and look as far up the pyramid in terms of the, uh, the winners.
And that’s both in terms of, you know, the, the, the company ideas, but the entrepreneurs and the investors, and you can’t go too far wrong because people must’ve attracted to the top investors and the top ones.
Louis Beryl: Yeah. And that makes sense. You know, I I’d love to transition to, to trends, you know what…You know in 2021 we’ve seen tremendous change. 2020, the pandemic, the move to remote work. That’s probably had an enormous impact on, on your business and how recruiting is in, in general, but then I’d love to actually to dive into what are you seeing right now in May of 2021 that’s [00:24:00] suprising and different than even, you know what we were seeing a year ago?
Tony Willis: If you think internally what’s happening in our firm and how’s the pandemic and what’s happening in the last year affected us. I think that we’re certainly people. Uh, I wouldn’t say reluctance to come back to the office, but then it was enthused about coming back to the office as I thought they might be.
And I think that virtually everyone now would have some kind of split between working from home and working in the office. I think going back into the office five days a week, I just don’t see that needle. I think that’s being mirrored, um, amongst our poults. Um, as well. And I think also the other thing that I would say internally is that the impact of the pandemic when different people, employees need to look out for that as well, because employees have been affected, uh, in different ways.
And it’s not always obvious from a weekly zoom calls with your employees, um, which president has been affected in which way. And we’ve had a number of situations where people kind of coming back in with different. Yeah, mental States and [00:25:00] needing different things from the company, different things from the job, um, that have been brought on by the pandemic.
And I think that that’s. It must be playing out at every workplace across the, uh, across our sector.
Seb Kyall: Look, I think that’s fair. I think the other thing that’s been interesting for me is that historically early stage technology companies has been just being focused on top line, customer acquisition, building revenues, getting product, market fit, getting a thing, moving, and that’s what it was.
And now all of a sudden, so many of them are focused on chief people, officers, VP of people. People and talent, just because all of a sudden they’re companies that work remotely, the whole thing’s changed. They’ve had to actually address the whole people in environments now rather than just the growth scenario.
And that’s changed massively.
Louis Beryl: So, are you seeing a lot more searches for Heads of People?
Seb Kyall: Without question! I mean, we have, we have, uh, so we’ve got [00:26:00] a guy called Malcolm we’ve worked with. He’s the ex chief people officer of Klana, he’s been the chief people offer at a couple of other search companies. Yeah, he doesn’t have enough time in the day at the moment because every single company is looking at that people role and talent scenario.
I’m trying to work out how they deal with it, because historically it was pushed to one side. Now it’s front and center.
Louis Beryl: Yeah, I think that’s right. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, really interesting that you mentioned that, you know, certainly what I’m seeing as I’m advising companies, uh, right now is on, you know, on these people, things, as they’re growing, it’s more challenging with kind of the remote and hybrid work environment.
Um, and I’ve certainly been advising people like now more than ever, you should bring on a head of people. And so I’m, um, I, I find it interesting, but also not surprising that that’s one of the more popular. Uh, searches right now.
Seb Kyall: Well, if you, if you think what, what, what a company’s about, right? Rather people that some has to be graded and individual parts, and all of a [00:27:00] sudden when you take those and you spread them and they’re all working remotely, you have to find some way to knit the whole thing together.
And this is why companies, it’s a big challenge for all companies, whether they’re large or small, how you deal with that in a pandemic.
Tony Willis: I think also pick up people in culture. I mean, lots of these companies now are calling it. You’re going to put people in culture officer because the culture doesn’t just happen spontaneously now, like it used to in workplaces, wherever I’m in the office, five days a week, this is a different thing.
Think sometimes it now has to be, I won’t say manufactured, but. Thought about, more carefully about how that culture now evolves and what it is in companies. And so that’s the kind of interesting stuff that’s coming out.
Matt C’de Baca: From the impact of the pandemic, it’s something I’ve seen. That’s probably a little more nuanced, uh, in this balance between work life and home life.
People are, uh, the talent rather. Uh, the executives that we are soliciting, I think are, uh, [00:28:00] more self-aware. Of the realities and challenges, um, and have had enough experience inside of mid, late or early, mid and late stage companies. And so I think there’s a much more educated talent market, uh, executive market.
And so as they are listening to these opportunities, they’re less inclined to, just to chase after the. The, uh, you know, next to great business for promises of fortune and glory, um, and make no mistake. I mean, I think there are still people that, you know, value those aspects. Uh, we all want to do well financially for ourselves or for our families, but, and I, I think that there’s a greater, um, uh, awareness or appreciation for, um, you know, what is the quality of life going to look like along with the, the contribution that I’m going to deliver to the company? Um, and so call that a more educated talentplace.
Louis Beryl: One of the things that certainly I’m seeing, and I’m sure you are as well is, you know, the speed [00:29:00] and size of fundraising rounds that are happening right now across the technology sector, seven Tony, you’ve been in this business for decades, you know, you’ve seen 2001, you’ve seen 2008, you know, and, and, and now here we are today, you know what, what’s your perspective on the speed and size of these fundraising rounds and what’s happening right now in technology?
Tony Willis: It’s just been crazy. I mean, I remember back in London, back in the day, if you raise 3 million pounds in a series, a you’d be running up and down registry with a bottle of champagne naked. I mean, it’s these days 3 million, well, very few series A fundinf rounds aren’t seeing that now.
I mean…
Louis Beryl: Oh a hundred percent. Exactly.
Tony Willis: And so that kind of, yeah, just wall of money, that’s out there as a result of, you know, macro economic situation around the world, low interest rates, high asset values, quantitative easing. Well that money’s got to go somewhere more of it’s been [00:30:00] going into insurtech investment.
And so it’s, um, It makes it a great market to be in. Um, and obviously a lot of that, that money raised, uh, in, in series I and B rounds, uh, goes towards building out teams and hiring talent. So that’s great for our industry. And it’s one of the reasons why we’re so busy right now, so that that’s, that’s fantastic.
But yeah, I dunno. I don’t know w whether it’s sustainable, but if it sustainable, won’t come back again. But here we are, and it’s just got. Bigger and bigger. It’s incredible.
Seb Kyall: Where we were when we started, when [unintelligible] started, every single entrepreneur was desperate for venture capitalists, to put money into their companies.
And now fast forward 20 years, every venture capitalists is desperate for those companies. It’s got a hundred days to degrees and at some point. At some point, it has to slow down. But when you look at, when you look at the metrics, there’s no financial modeling, you can put on these publicly traded companies [00:31:00] as to the total prepare for market capitalization of them versus the revenue.
At the moment, there is a bubble. My, you say that we thought there was a bubble in 2008. We thought it was a bubble in 2001. And. People seem to forget what happens and they continue on with it. And by the way, the markets continue to support it. You know, I looked at the companies, I’ve got a client, particularly right now.
I won’t name them. They’ve got 600 million in revenue and they’re valued at 30 billion. What is the metric work on that?
Louis Beryl: How do you work that through? You guys have been around for other, you know, quote unquote bubbles or market tops, you know, do you th you know, Do you think we’re in a bubble right now? What’s different about right now?
Tony Willis: Thinking about all the sectors in the economy. Where would you rather be right now? Which wouldn’t be retail. Not physical retail. I don’t think one is just coming back, but it’s had a rough couple of years. Uh, property has been up and down. I mean, you look at the various sectors, but tech and [00:32:00] digital, particularly with what’s happen with the pandemic and the shift online, um, is without question the right sector to be in.
And when you then layer on all the macro economic situation around, you know, of course the easing. Um, and governments buying back, uh, buying bonds and assets, um, low interest rates and the ultra low interest rate environment we’ve had now for virtually 10 years, since the 2008 crash. Um, all of those things point in one direction, asset prices going up.
But, I mean, the reason why there’s a bubble, um, and what is it a bubble or is it just going to carry on? Who knows when they’ll stop? It is because it’s just so much money around the world and you’ve got the China and India, um, in, in, in the forest more and more wealth being created tickling in Asia. And that money’s going to go somewhere and you can’t stick it in the bank.
You know, investing in great companies who get great returns, um, in, in the, probably the hottest sector in the world right now, putting their money in. So it’s just that, that wall of money that’s [00:33:00] out there to, to go into something and we’re in the right place at the right time for that.
Matt C’de Baca: Yeah, look, I, my last point, uh, about, uh, the talent or, or executives never being more thoughtful or, or intelligent about the evaluation process of these companies.
And I think the reality is, is that pre COVID, um, and given some of the lackluster IPO’s, uh, you know, I’m thinking of, we work here as you started to dissect, like, what is this really. Um, and investors and shareholders begin to say, well, wait a minute. Um, do we need more accountability in these investments and where these funding rounds going?
I think we’ve now swung around the other way, which is to say within our, you know, core offering in North America, B2B enterprise software companies, I think you can’t follow funding rounds as a mechanism for success. Meaning just because somebody took a large series, B, C, D round it, the money doesn’t necessarily matter.
You really got to dig in and understand, well, Uh, what is the value proposition of the product who are the leaders? And that’s where I think, again, we really shine is being able to help executives [00:34:00] perform a more thoughtful due diligence of Hey, with this money comes great value. Um, and here’s why this organization is going to go on to IPO or be acquired or be a profitable business.
Tony Willis: I wouldn’t call it this the top of the market yet. I think when interest rates start going back above 2% amongst the, with the G seven countries and when the fed and the bank of England and EU stopped, because of easing, that’s when you’re going to call this top of the market.
Louis Beryl: You know, th this is great. I have one final question for Tony and Seb, which is if you could go back to when you first started Renaissance and get, you know, give yourself some advice from what you know today, what would, what would be the advice you’d give to yourself?
Tony Willis: I think it’s two things. What, well, from my perspective, I would think bigger and take more warrants rather than fees.
Louis Beryl: I think Bill might’ve said the same thing right? Take equity in the companies. So what about you, Seb?
Seb Kyall: Wow. [00:35:00] Okay.
I’d mirrored that, but I will say the more conversations you have, the more you learn. And so I would push further and further into the people they used to interview and take more from it because, you know, I’m sure you’ve had this from ever approach.
You have a speak to, if I knew, then why not? That’d be great. So the more information you can assimilate, the more scenarios you can, you can receive and look at the better it is.
And Matt for you, you know, I know you’re not one of the founders. But as you look back at your recruiting career, what’s the thing that you’ve learned over the last 12, 13 years? You know, that, you know, really makes you, uh, a better advisor to companies now than you were a decade ago?
Matt C’de Baca: Two things! One, not all dollars are earned at the same. I think earlier in my career, uh, and particularly as you’re, uh, moving up the ranks of client services, um, you’re eager to make a name for [00:36:00] yourself.
And so anybody who will listen, uh, seems like a valuable prospect. And then, uh, when you get that, um, Client that isn’t well aligned for your value proposition or you didn’t conduct a proper diligence, uh, in terms of your ability to deliver value, um, how many client services, professionals or recruitment professionals.
I’ve had to bang their head against the wall, uh, with a difficult client relationship, uh, that they could have seen coming if they were more thoughtful up front. So I think, you know, over the last five years, uh, where I’ve, and, and really kind of come into my own, um, is just really being thoughtful about, can I create value here and having the discipline to walk away from things and say, no, this isn’t a great opportunity.
And then the second one would just be as an extension of that. Careers, uh, vocations. I mean, they’re built over time. Um, and you can’t go from, you know, day one month, one year one, [00:37:00] and expect it to be, you know, associate to chief executive officer. Um, and so, you know, again, I’ve probably banged my head against the wall at a time or two or, or a, uh, just a client and, or a colleague off a time or two, wanting it to happen all at once or happen overnight. Um, and you really gotta be patient. That isn’t to say, you do have to take risks and you do have to force opportunities sometimes, but by force of will and wanting it to happen sooner than it’s going to, um, that’s not a recipe for success.
And so you have to, you have to go through the, uh, experience. Um, and with that experience comes wisdom and expertise. Um, and then, you know, a little bit of good luck to sprinkle over the top of that. Uh, you know, you can rise the ranks and become a managing partner of a global, uh, you know, executive search firm.
Louis Beryl: Well this has been great. Thank you, Seb, Tony and Matt. It was great chatting and learning more about [00:38:00] RenaissanceLleadership. Thank you so much for the time and for joining me on The Startup Stack.
Tony Willis: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Matt C’de Baca: Cheers guys.
Seb Kyall: It was a pleasure.
Louis Beryl: Thanks again to Matt, Seb and Tony for joining me on today’s episode of The Startup Stack. To learn about Renaissance Leadership and the work they do, check out the link to their Rocketplace profile in the show notes.
Announcer: The Startup Stack is written and edited by Hannah Levy produced by Leah Jackson.
