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The Online Course Show

185 Episodes

91 minutes | 3 days ago
168: Lessons in Getting VERY Niched Down, Customer Delight, and B2B Course Marketing (Featuring Neil Benson)
Today I have the pleasure of sitting down to chat with podcast listener and super-niche course creator Neil Benson. Neil shares about his corporate background, how he became a course creator, his experience with B2B marketing, and why he uses LEGO to explain very complex concepts within his niche. We also discuss how Neil measures success and what 2021 holds for his course. Enjoy! “First of all, go for it. A lot of the hang-ups that people have are just about getting started, getting that first course out there.” – Neil Benson In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:53) Good news and bad news (1:06) Recording courses (5:54) What’s going on with David? (6:36) Camera chat (9:50) What does David’s true crime story have to do with online courses? (12:16) More about today’s guest, Neil Benson (14:03) Welcoming Neil and talking about Neil’s niche (16:20) How did Neil end up with an online course? (20:30) Obstacles and Shiny Object Syndrome (23:44) Using LinkedIn as a traffic source (26:33) Where did the brand name Customery come from? (27:52) What’s the deal with the LEGOs? (31:47) Neil’s take on New Zenler (33:14) Using Bonjoro (37:07) Where does Deadline Funnel come in? (44:36) B2B or B2C (47:58) Neil’s student experience (50:42) How does Neil measure student success? (52:09) Neil’s Why (54:25) So, what’s the accent, Neil? (56:14) Neil’s podcast (58:28) Neil’s advice to new course creators (59:31) What does 2021 look like for Neil and his courses? (1:00:42) My advice for Neil (1:05:44) David breaks down SCRUM vs. Waterfall (1:10:00) My project manager past (1:11:28) David’s experience with Waterfall and what he plans to do going forward with his course (1:12:28) The benefit of using a beta group (1:13:20) Putting yourself out there (1:18:46) The big vein in David’s forehead (1:21:04) My favorite joke (1:22:22) Using Bonjoro as part of the sales funnel (1:25:48) Do couples talk to each other about buying decisions? (1:28:52) Gift giving as part of online courses (1:30:06) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Guest Links: Neil’s website Resources and Recommendations: Parrot Padcaster Canon T6i Canon T7i Sigma Prime Lenses Nifty 50 Lens Sporty’s Private Pilot Learn To Fly Courses Outside Article on The Barefoot Bandit Barefoot Bandit: The True Story of Colton Harris-Moore, New American Outlaw Amy Porterfield’s Digital Marketing Academy Bryan Harris’s Growth University LinkedIn LEGO The 5 Love Languages New Zenler Zapier CovertKit Deadline Funnel Smart Passive Income Double Your Freelancing Amazing Apps Upwork Big Brothers Big Sisters of America Episode 110 Episode 111 Episode 152 Episode 161 The 4-Hour Work Week Jacques’ Courses: Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:02] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content and packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creator actually succeed with online courses. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:24] Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is the The Online Course Show. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:32] And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I am your host, Jacques Hopkins, and right over there is our co-host. What's going on, Dr. K.? David Krohse: [00:00:40] Oh, I'm super fantastic up here. How are you doing? Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:42] Super fantastic. Good man. I did tell you last week that I was going to be recording the newest version of my flagship Piano In 21 Days course. David Krohse: [00:00:51] Yes, you did. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:52] I have I have good news and bad news about that experience. Well, the bad news is I didn't record the whole thing. The good news is that I recorded about half of it and it went really, really well. Let's talk about let's talk about recording courses for a minute. Are you OK with that? David Krohse: [00:01:10] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:10] Man, it's been it's been about four years since I recorded the previous version of my piano course. And it's I've recorded it several times. And every time previous to this, I recorded the entire course in one day. I'm just a big fan of batching things. And that's, you know, the first couple of versions, I was still working my full time job when I recorded them. So I had to my wife and I were both out of the house at the same time working when we were both like in the house at the same time after hours, too. So I would always have to schedule it around her kind of being out of the house because I recorded it on my piano in our living room. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:45] And so it was it was a big deal to get that scheduled. Well, now, I haven't worked in a traditional job in five years and I have my own office here in my house. And I can you know, as long as that the kids aren't home, then it's I can record just about any time I want. Monday through Friday to 5:00 type of thing. So I scheduled it for this past Friday. My calendar was open, ready to go. I had my curriculum ready. All my notes. And I'm just like way more into the course than I've ever been and the curriculum and I've shared that along this way. And so every lesson is just it's longer than than previous and it's better. And I'm not taking any shortcuts at all. And I look up and it's about 3:15 on Friday and I've gotten through day 11. I'm like, I'm done. Like, I don't have anything left in the tank. I'm done. I gave it my all and I'm going to have to draw the line right here. David Krohse: [00:02:42] Well, I think that's the right call. I mean, energy energy is so important. I mean, if you could give a new course creator one one piece of advice, the first time they record themselves as you got to, like, turn up the energy. And so, yeah, you got to got to call it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:57] Yeah, you do. David Krohse: [00:02:58] Have you now recorded the last ten? Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:00] No, I'm going to do it this Friday and it takes my video editor a probably a day, a day to do each lesson. So I'm still going to be ahead of him if I finish this Friday. So he's he's starting to work on the editing part. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:13] And so I didn't it's not me not finishing the recording doesn't delay these lessons getting out there and being released and launched because we have the editing side of things and we spent a lot of time in the editing. I've got three camera angles, some, you know, the lesson where I taught the pedal, I actually had to use my phone and put it up my foot because I needed a fourth camera angle to show what I was doing with my foot. So there's a lot here. And I recorded my screen. I recorded my piano. There's a lot of raw files. It takes a while to edit these things, to do it the right way. David Krohse: [00:03:45] Now, what time did you actually start recording the first the first lesson? Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:50] So kids went to school about 8:00. And I just I did a lot of preparation the night before, but I still had a few little last minute things to do to get ready. So I probably didn't hit record until about 9:00. And you know what the most nerve wracking part of that whole thing is? And this is a good, you know, people that have recorded courses, especially ones where it's not just like a screen record where you're actually on camera, we'll get this. But like, what if my microphone went out or one of the cameras went out and you have to redo the lesson or multiple lessons like that would be really frustrating. Right. So the way I did it is I hit record everywhere. I had a record like seven different places, and then I would do a lesson and then I wouldn't stop recording. I would just let it keep recording, but I would be like, OK, now I've got to go check all seven things to make sure they're still recording. Before I pick back up on the next lesson because the last thing I was to not have everything I need it. Fortunately it went really well. You know, that's part of what I'm saying when I say it went really well. I've got the integrity of all the files is there. I recorded everything in 4K. The quality of the audio was good. The quality of the video is good and the files are all there. Nothing, nothing seemed to have glitched and it was a seamless handoff to my editor and I felt really good about it throughout the day, so. David Krohse: [00:05:12] Awesome. Well, six hours, I would say the most that I figured out I could only really record good content from 10:00 to 1:00. So three hours was the most. I was like that, that was it. So six hours is a lot of stamina in my book. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:26] Yeah, for sure. I didn't. I was drinking water and coffee. I didn't eat anything till after I was done, but I was I went out and went to my wife about 3:15. I was like, "Babe, I did a great job, but I got about halfway through and I am so wiped out," and I got a bite to eat and I made myself a a little cocktail and I was I was just done. David Krohse: [00:05:45] Nice. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:46] So the other half is this Friday. I've got a scheduled. I'm excited about it and I hope to finish up the recording this Friday. David Krohse: [00:05:52] Very nice. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:54] Your turn. What's going on? Your world? David Krohse: [00:05:55] Oh, man. Well, I mean, for a lot of 2020, I kind of shelved my course and just wasn't super active in it. And so starting to gear up with the anticipation that at some point the world's going to get back to normal and chiropractors around the country are going to feel like they can go and do Lunch and Learns in person. So this Thursday, I am doing a little interview with I found this other chiropractor that he also has brought in well over a million dollars through this specific type of marketing. And so he didn't learn it from me. But I'm just going to sit down with him and get that social proof that this concept of going out in person, talking to people does work. So I'm super excited about that. Christmas, I got a bunch of money from people, and so I went out and bought a a new camera. So I got a Canon T6i and I got that specifically because I wanted to get a Parrot Padcaster. Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:48] Nice. David Krohse: [00:06:48] And so I'm all excited to use the Padcaster. Or did you use the Padcaster or during the recording of your your new course? Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:56] No, I actually didn't. I had notes up on my screen like bullet points. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:00] I just I'm so intimate with this curriculum that I don't need an exact script, but I certainly use it for for a lot of a lot of times if I'm doing like a sales video or even certain YouTube videos, I love the Padcaster. It's amazing. It's a $99 teleprompter and it blows the $500-600 ones out the water. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:18] In terms of simplicity, ease of use, I've used both types and it's amazing. That's awesome. Did you did the Padcaster yet or you just have the camera? David Krohse: [00:07:26] Yes, they both both arrived and I haven't really fully gotten going with using them. I'm so excited to play with them. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:32] Really cool. Now what what lens did you get? Because that's more important than the camera. David Krohse: [00:07:36] I know it's just a standard one that came with that T6i. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:39] Nope. David Krohse: [00:07:40] You think I need to upgrade? Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:41] Yes, please. You need to upgrade. Get that nice blurry background. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:45] Let's let's get Dr. K. As professional as possible. You can go with a Nifty Fifty. There's some it's about $100 for a Nifty Fifty. And the problem with that is you need a lot of space, you need a lot of space between yourself and the wall behind you. But but what you really need is a lot of space between you and the camera because of just how much the Nifty Fifty zooms in. It's not it's called a prime lens, and that means that you can't zoom in and out. David Krohse: [00:08:10] OK. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:11] But if you want to go a little more expensive, I think around $350 you can get a Sigma prime lens. Sigma is the brand and that's what I use. And it is game changer. And you don't have to stand near as far away from the camera. And that is I'm telling you, that is the game changer for for making just super high quality videos. David Krohse: [00:08:30] But are these lenses camera specific? Because you're a Sony guy? Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:34] I'm a Sony guy now. I was a Canon. I was a Canon guy. I think I had a T7i but Sigma is a is a brand third party brand. It's not under Sony or Canon or anything like that. And so they make lenses for both brands. But you've got to get like my Sigma lens on my Sony camera will not work on yours for the, for your Canon but they make Canon lenses and when I had a Canon I had a Sigma lens. I've since I think sold it on eBay otherwise I'd give it to you. But yeah, you just look for a Sigma prime lens that specifically for Canons. David Krohse: [00:09:08] Gotcha. Well I mean I, I'm a hobby photographer. I mean as long as the aperture, the little hole that lets the light into the camera through the lens is big enough, that's what creates that blurry bokeh effect, so. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:20] Exactly. David Krohse: [00:09:21] I assume this... I'll play with it and check it out. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:22] But yeah, you want to try to get it as low as 1.4 Would be ideal in the aperture. And I bet your lens that you have that came with it doesn't go down to 1.4. David Krohse: [00:09:30] No, probably not. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:30] Maybe like maybe like 2.8. And so that's what I think the Nifty Fifty goes down to 1.4. But there are some downsides. Like I said in the Sigma that I use, which you're looking at me right now, is certainly a 1.4 aperture. David Krohse: [00:09:42] Gotcha. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:43] That's why this great LSU football helmet back here so blurry. Geaux Tigers. Alright man, any other updates? David Krohse: [00:09:51] Well, so I've shared before that I like a good true crime story and I'm reading this true crime book that really illustrates one of the more interesting uses and just proof that an online course works. So have you ever heard of the Barefoot Bandit? Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:06] No. David Krohse: [00:10:07] OK, so this is back in 2009. But up in the San Juan Islands, a northwest region of Washington state, there was this young guy named Colton Harris Moore. He was 17 and just a terrible home life and upbringing ended up in juvenile facilities a couple of times. And at 17, he just ran away and essentially started breaking into these people's vacation homes and he'd sit there, eat some Beanie Weenies, eat some Cinnamon Toast Crunch. And then ultimately he'd just use their internet, not destroy or damage anything. But it fairly early in this, he was super obsessed with flying. And so I just read this last night, but he bought an online course called Sports Private Pilot Learn To Fly course. And at 17, he, like, started watching these videos, taught himself to fly and like within a year, he stole a Cessna, flew over the North Cascade Mountains and crash landed it successfully was able to run away. He went down to Reno for a while and then he stole other planes and cars and ended up back on the San Juan Islands and stole stole like a couple more planes, I think, all based on taking Sporty's Learn To Fly course and the story ends, he actually stole a jet, I believe flew down down to the Bahamas and there was this high speed pursuit in the boat. And so I'm just reading this. I'm like, wow, you know, if an online course can teach you to fly successfully, that's that's pretty impressive. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:40] Well, hopefully. Yeah, absolutely. That's really cool. Hopefully the course didn't teach him to steal all these things, though. David Krohse: [00:11:45] No, no, definitely. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:47] You know, we talk about transformation over information, but I mean, hopefully the transformation that you're helping people do is to not be a felon, right? David Krohse: [00:11:55] That's a good point. But no, if anyone is interested in this story, there is a great Outside magazine article. Just search for the Barefoot Bandit or I'm actually reading the book that I think it's just called The Barefoot Bandit. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:08] Well, I'm not sure how to transition there, but that's a cool story. But I think it's probably time that we move on to our conversation of the day. Is that fair? David Krohse: [00:12:15] Sounds good. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:16] Neil Benson. Podcast listener. Shout out to Neil listening to this. He's one of the people like yourself that's listen to just about every episode of the podcast and have been listening for quite a while. Has his own online course and has been been fairly successful but has a lot of plans to grow it even more. A couple of years ago I got a little package in the mail and it was a little LEGO figure that was that was somewhat looked like me with a note from Neil. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:44] I didn't know who he was at the time. I think you had briefly mentioned him on a podcast episode and that's why he actually sent me the LEGO. But he actually sends when people finish this course, you'll send in his students these little LEGOs. And it's just it's just so fun and so, so interesting. And if you're a student of his and you get that, I'm sure it's just awesome. I mean, people in my course, I don't necessarily have something I send them when they finish the course. But a lot of people get some physical goods for me. They love the T-shirt. They love sitting me them in the t-shirt at their piano with their workbooks, physical workbook at their piano. And I love seeing that, too. It's just really cool when we can break through this digital product world a little bit for certain people and send them something physical. Jacques Hopkins: [00:13:25] And I think Neil wanted to send you one as well. Have you received your LEGO yet? David Krohse: [00:13:30] Not quite yet. Jacques Hopkins: [00:13:31] Yeah. I think I think he showed me a picture of it. It looks a lot like a nice Dr. K, so hopefully that comes in soon. Jacques Hopkins: [00:13:38] But Neil teaches a he's got a very, very, very, very niche niche, like very. He's got a very, very small potential audience. But sometimes that's that can be very successful as well. So, as usual, you and I, David, will come back and talk about a little more on the back end. But for now, here is the full conversation between myself and Neil. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:02] Hi, Neil. Welcome to The Online Course Show. Neil Benson: [00:14:05] Thanks, Jacques. It's good to be on the show. A long time listener, first time caller. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:10] You were telling me, you were telling me just before we hit record, you think you've listened to every episode of the podcast. That's impressive. Neil Benson: [00:14:17] Yeah. No, I love listening to podcasts. I used to listen to them on my commute. Now I listen to them when I'm gardening or doing the dishes around the house. And yeah, I love your show and yeah. Been a big fan for a long time. So thanks very much for putting on that content out there. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:31] Well, yeah, thank you. Thanks for the kind words and I think I believe you have a podcast of your own. And that's certainly one of the things that I want to talk to about with you and your business. But let's start with just like what your niche is like what is it that you help people to do? Neil Benson: [00:14:45] Sure. So my name is Neil. I run the Customery Academy and Customery helps Microsoft partners and customers build amazing business applications using an Agile approach called Scrum. So that's that's pretty niche, right? Of all the Microsoft... Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:58] Very. Neil Benson: [00:14:58] Of all the Microsoft professionals, I'm looking at the ones who build business applications, so that's a subset. And within that set, I'm just looking at the ones who want to take an Agile approach. So that's kind of a software development or project management approach. And my favorite is called Scrum. So there's probably a few thousand people in my target market and I'm here to serve them. Jacques Hopkins: [00:15:18] A lot of times when we get that niche down, you can actually end up charging quite, quite a high price because there's supply and demand. So do you charge a higher price for this? Neil Benson: [00:15:29] Probably not. My main course sells at $297, so that's probably not what you'd call a premium price. It's a fairly mid price and it used to be $97. So I've stepped it up a little bit since I started it. And my competition, I guess if people want to learn Scrum, that can go to an official Scrum training class. That's typically two days. These days it's online, but it used to be you have to go in person and that costs, you know, $1,500. Some are $1,2000 to $1,800 depending upon the trainer. And it takes two days and you have to go on, you take time away from your business to go and take those classes. So I think I've got a good proposition whether or not it's priced at the right price point. You know, maybe I need to experiment a little bit more. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:11] When people get into... And by the way, from what I know about you so far, you probably want to go higher price. But we'll see. From my experience, when somebody gets into online courses, they've either been teaching this this thing or helping people with this thing professionally for a while or it's more of their their hobby. Like for me, I never really was a piano teacher. Like, I just I have always played piano and it's one thing I knew how to do. And then I created an online course of that topic. It's not something I was already doing professionally. I would guess this is something you've been doing professionally for a while before you turn it into an online course. Or maybe not. You tell us. Neil Benson: [00:16:49] So, I've been a developer developing Microsoft Business Applications and then an architect and a project leader, and I've been doing that for 15 years. So I still do consulting work today, leading delivery teams, managing development teams, helping clients with estimation of projects and launching those projects. So I have a pretty healthy consulting business and that's 90% of my my revenue. I've got one technical consultant who works for me. I'm just about to launch another startup with seven other founders. We're doing more or less the same thing. So I've been in that universe for a long time, but I've only been training as an online course creator for three years. So it's still still fairly new. I still feel like I've got a lot to learn in that space. Jacques Hopkins: [00:17:30] Yeah. So you get you've worked in this world for for quite a while. What motivated you to want to make an online course? Neil Benson: [00:17:37] I was working for a huge global audit company where there's a very structured career progression and I couldn't quite see myself getting to that next step on the ladder. So I was being, not blocked, but it was very tough to get to get promoted. And I was just looking for other ways to boost my income. And in particular, I wanted a way for my family to diversify my income to my wife could get involved in the business and teaching online seemed to be a good way of sharing my experience. I've been a Microsoft, it's called the Most Valuable Professional Award. So they give out these awards to community contributors who help the Microsoft community with their experience with blogging or podcasting or videos or speaking at conferences. And I've had that award since 2010, so I've been used to sharing my experience. And it just seemed like a natural progression to go from blogging and speaking at conferences to packaging it up into an online course, then offering that. There's a free one, and then there's a paid one as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:35] So when's this time frame when you when you said, OK, I'm going to move forward with an online course? And what were the steps that you took to make it happen? Neil Benson: [00:18:41] And so this is middle of December, 2017. A course launched at the end of the year. So on December, 2017. So I was blogging about this topic, about Scrum for Microsoft Business Applications specifically. So I focused my blog articles on this content for about six months before, collected a few email addresses, launched with a list of a couple of hundred people, maybe 200 people in December, 2017. And I remember the first couple of sales I made were some friends of mine who bought the course. They got a $50 discount, they paid $47 for it and that was that there was enough sales in that first month to egg me on, to keep me going and it's been pretty solid since then. I relaunched the course on New Zenler in October, 2019. So that was nearly two years later and that's helped me up the game but more. And yet today we've got about a thousand students in the paid course and a couple of thousand students in the free course and it's growing every month. Jacques Hopkins: [00:19:44] Wow. That's that's impressive numbers, Neil. Any regrets? I mean, are you glad that you decided to to go into this world of digital products? Neil Benson: [00:19:54] I ended up leaving my job with a global audit company, partly because the managing partner that I worked with didn't really enjoy me having this side hustle, and it was a bit of tension there, and we ended up parting ways. And I'm out on my own again. So this is, Customery is the sixth business I have launched. So I keep flipping between and paid employment, working for somebody else and running my own thing. And I've realized I'm much better at running my own thing. I'm a terrible employee. So no regrets at all. It's amazing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:22] Ok, good. I was wondering where you're going with that regret that you wrapped it up nicely with it. No regrets actually. What's what about just like obstacles, roadblocks was there a time when you're like, I don't know about this online course thing. I might not be for me. Neil Benson: [00:20:38] No, I never doubted the path I kept on it. But what I do struggle with almost on a daily basis is, you know, what should I do next? I listen to a lot of online course creators, yourself included, and you've got a very well defined, proven strategy. It's worked really well for your business. Is my course business the same as yours? Well, not quite. There's some differences in our target markets and our approaches. But should I be doing webinars? Should I be building my second course? Should I hire a virtual assistant? Should I keep up with my podcast? Should I do more YouTube? Neil Benson: [00:21:10] I just I got torn in lots of different directions, and I probably need to just focus a little bit more, do one thing at a time, get it done, experiment, see what the results are like before moving on to the next one. Instead of trying five or six things at once and getting getting nowhere. Jacques Hopkins: [00:21:26] I mean, I, I've got the same struggle, Neil. I mean, that's it's shiny object syndrome. Well, it's that and and just overwhelming confusion, too. There's so many directions we can go and our time is is very limited as well. I mean, I'm, I'm working on all kinds of things and I talk about this a lot. But the great irony of The 4-Hour Work Week is like that book is what really got me into this. But now these days, I'm kind of working like a crazy person just because I've got so many ideas, so many initiatives, like I have a podcast and I have multiple YouTube channels that are getting a little bit neglected. I've got multiple courses, multiple brands. I've got a team. It's like, where should my attention actually be focused most? And what are what are some things that you're trying to help rein in that focus? Neil Benson: [00:22:17] I don't know, I haven't cracked the Jacques I wish I had. I've I've taken a couple of courses about how to build better courses, so I took Amy Porterfield's Digital Course Academy. I think she's got a good approach. Neil Benson: [00:22:31] It's based on on a closed cart launch on a periodic basis. I have never used that. I've always had an evergreen approach to my course. So I haven't followed Amy's path faithfully. I was a mentee within Bryan Harris's Growth University and learned some great lessons there. One of the big lessons I really need to act upon that I learned and that mentorship was a good part for me is probably to sell to other partners, so instead of trying to build my own audience all of the time, find other people or businesses who have an audience and partner with them. So, for example, in a Microsoft world, a lot of businesses buy their software through a Microsoft software distributor. Those distributors offer training to Microsoft partners. Well, maybe I could piggyback on that training and offer my course as part of their training bundle. In fact, I did that with one Australian partner last year, that was really successful. We did that five training classes for about 20 students, and that was really successful. Most of them ended up getting certified and Scrum and the results were really good. And I only had to sell once to the Microsoft software distributor and they did the job of inviting all their partners on board. So I need to do more of that, I think. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:44] What what is your biggest traffic source at this point, is that it? Neil Benson: [00:23:49] I'd know, I'd say, but I doubt it's LinkedIn. So I did a lot of outreach on LinkedIn, and that's been a good traffic source for me. However, I did try advertising a LinkedIn with LinkedIn paid ads. I experimented with two different ads, about $1,000, I got 31 leads and no sales. So probably not quite. Maybe it was the creative, maybe it was the message but that didn't didn't quite work for me. What I do on LinkedIn is I post a certificate of completion for every student who completes my free course and will have about a 50% completion rate there for free course, that's pretty good. And for my paid course it's slightly higher, probably 60, 70% completion rate. Neil Benson: [00:24:28] And I post those certificates of completion and LinkedIn. And then I tagged the student and I tag the company that they work for. And that means that people in their network get to find out that they've completed this course to achieve that certification. So that brings a little bit of viral buzz into my network and into my business. And I also do direct outreach on LinkedIn. So I've got another 25,000 connections on LinkedIn and I'll message some of those every day and say, "Hey, look, here's my podcast or here's my free course." Just welcome them into taking an Agile approach. Jacques Hopkins: [00:25:00] I'm curious to the response rate on that because I'm on LinkedIn. I don't use it very much. And with you, I understand that that sounds like a great platform for you. I mean, given the the nature of your niche Scrum for Microsoft Business Applications, it sounds it just sounds like it would be a good fit on LinkedIn versus something like piano. But people are constantly reaching out to me like offering services, SEO, web design or pitching to come on the podcast, like constantly. So you are one of those people that are like doing outreach, pitching people different things, what kind of success rate, response rate or you getting with that? Neil Benson: [00:25:38] Reasonably good. So I'm pitching to people who are in my niche, first of all. I'm I'm in this industry as well. So I'm not I'm not a vendor pitching web design services. I get pitched on a coaching services and LinkedIn. I'm I'm a practitioner. I'm in the trenches. These are my peers. And I'm fortunate enough that I've been on the speaker circuit the conferences for long enough that I have a bit of a reputation as well. So people know me and know my specialty and know my content, which is just great. So it's quite a soft message and I'm not selling anything. I don't pitch my paid course. I don't pitch any paid products. It's "Hey, I've got I've got a great podcast episode you might be interested in," or "I've got a great free course that teaches the basics. I thought you might be interested in that." And if they take it up, great, if they don't reach out to them another time in six months or a year, I'm not I'm not bombarding them with messages. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:32] So your brand name is Customery? Neil Benson: [00:26:36] Yes. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:36] How does that relate to Scrum for Microsoft Business Applications? Neil Benson: [00:26:43] I was working for a business back in London who rebranded as Outsourcery. So they did, they wanted to outsource your IT, so they took the word outsource and added a Y on the end. I thought that was quite clever. And I specialize in customer relationship management. That's the type of business operations my background is in. So CRM, it's known as. And so I want to help you get closer to your customers. I just like my wife feels Christmassy in December, I feel Customery all year round. So that's where that's where the name came from. And it's a misspelling, obviously there's customary with an A in it so I have to clarify the spelling all the time, but it's pretty easy, you know, if I'm reading it, it's just the word customer. Why on the end you'll hear that. You'll hear that a lot of you listen to my podcast. So yeah, it works. It's reasonably short. And the domain name .com, .com.uk,.com.au , you were all available. So, yeah, that's that's how that one started. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:38] We've got the logo very nicely behind you on the video that I'm looking at. And I didn't I was I didn't know if it had to do with the word custom or what, but now it's very clear to me that it's customer with a Y. And so thanks for thanks for explaining that now along with your brand, tell me, what is the deal with the LEGOs? Neil Benson: [00:27:55] So I was just looking for a way to illustrate some pretty complex concepts in Scrum. You know, we work with teams, there's a product, we're working in sprints. And I just wanted a way of illustrating these things in graphics or with some kind of designs. And I saw somebody else posted a picture of a business meeting with Scrum, sorry, with LEGO mini figures sitting around a table. I thought, that's amazing, I could do that. So I. I dove into my kids LEGO boxes, pulled out some superheroes. So we've got the Scrum Master who's Superman, so the initials match, and we've got the person who's got a vision for the application that we're building. They're called the product owner. So that's Wonder Woman in my world because most of the amazing product owners I've worked with have been Wonder Women. And we've got the Scrum team of Spider-Man and Batman and Robin are all in there. And it's just a really fun way of illustrating these concepts. My kids get to help me build it. I can buy LEGO through my business, which is a wonderful tax right off. The kids love that. And I've just become known for this kind of fun way of illustrating some pretty dry, boring, well not boring, but dry, obtuse kind of concepts with LEGO. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Wearing my LEGO t-shirt today. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:09] And my understanding is that I don't know if you still do this, but you physically send out like a LEGO figure to your students. Neil Benson: [00:29:16] Oh that's a secret! Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:17] Oh no! Neil Benson: [00:29:18] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:19] Should we cut that out or are we good? Neil Benson: [00:29:22] No, no. I'm kidding. So any, the students who complete my course and then fill in the feedback survey at the end, last question I asked them is just "There's a secret gift coming your way if you give me your address," and I mail of a LEGO figure to them. So I look up the LinkedIn profile, I try and match the LEGO face and hair to what they look like, and then I give them a pair of colored legs and off it goes in the mail. So it's a little Customery branded LEGO mini figure and those end up getting photographed and then posted on LinkedIn. I really enjoy receiving them. I'm amazed. I thought it was maybe quite polarizing, something as playful as LEGO. I thought maybe a lot of serious Microsoft people wouldn't really appreciate it, but everybody seems to enjoy LEGO. I've never had a negative comment about it. So and people love getting LEGO mini figures, so it's really worked. Jacques Hopkins: [00:30:09] Well, it's different. It's very different. And you sent me one couple of years ago. I went I checked the mail and I'm like, what is this? I didn't I didn't know who you were. And and I think you were just saying, thanks for the podcast, but I was blown away, man. So thanks again for that. It's been a couple of years now since that since I saw that. But it's such a unique thing. And I think it's so cool that you send that to the people that go through your course. Neil Benson: [00:30:33] Well, that was David Krohse's fault. I probably should have sent it to him because there was a you mentioned a book that I've never read, about the Love Languages and gifting, I think is one of the languages of love. And he mentioned my LEGO figure and I don't know where he heard about it, but yeah, he mentioned it on the podcast. So I thought I'd send you guys a LEGO figure, but I probably should've sent it straight to David. Jacques Hopkins: [00:30:54] Yeah, well, David, David's going to hear this and he's going to he's going to be like, I need a LEGO. I know him and he's going to want a LEGO. So maybe I can get in fact, I think I have his address. Maybe I could send it to you. And if you don't mind, I'm sure David would really appreciate LEGO. Neil Benson: [00:31:07] Of course. Of course. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:09] All right, man. So you mentioned New Zenler. And I've I've heard a few people using it. I included it in my review, my last episode of 2020, where I reviewed a lot, of course, platforms, and I don't have any direct experience with it. But my very high level assessment was it's one of these do everything platforms, but it's still kind of early on, so it doesn't do everything super well. But if you're interested, it might be worth checking out because you can get in now at a pretty pretty good discount compared to other platforms, is that from your experience, is that a fair assessment of New Zenler? Neil Benson: [00:31:50] Yeah, I think it's fair. It is. It does represent itself as an all in one platform, but does a lot of things that some specialist course platforms don't do. For example, it's got marketing funnels and it's got email capabilities built into it. I don't happen to use those very much, but I, I came to that from Teachable. Right? So Teachable, it's a much smaller footprint in terms of its capability. And what I love most about New Zenler was the reaction from their development team. So there's they're headquartered in London, I think, and they've got developers worldwide. But there a great Facebook groups for the people who use New Zenler, and they're really reactive to fixing bugs, to launching small features and massive features as well. So the pace at which they do that is just blown Teachable away. I was really frustrated with Teachable's lack of development. And yeah, sure, I don't, I always used ConvertKit, so I kept ConvertKit for my email. I use Deadline Funnels because the countdown timer in New Zenler isn't quite what I want. It doesn't can't show it in an email message, which you can with Deadline Funnels. So I think I took up your affiliate like for Deadline Funnels and for Bonjoro. So there's a couple of other tools I use as well. And yeah, other than that, it's, it's a very broad as I said. It's got webinars built in with the Zoom integration and I pay less than half of what I used to pay on Teachable. It's a good deal. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:12] How do you... Thanks for using my affiliate links, by the way. How are you using Bonjoro? Neil Benson: [00:33:16] So I send a personal message to everybody who joins one of my courses. So I've got my free course, I've got my paid course, I've got two wait lists for future courses and I just got the wait list to see which ones most popular. But most people sign up for both, so that hasn't helped me decide which one to launch next. And I also send a personal video to anybody who completes the course as well. And during the message, I'll just say welcome to the community. It's great to have you on board. Don't forget to follow my page on LinkedIn or don't forget to share your certificate or whatever, whatever achievement that they've made. And that's worked really well. The feedback I get from those is amazing. People really enjoy receiving those. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:54] Very positive, right? Neil Benson: [00:33:56] Yeah, you still using that for all of your new students as well? Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:59] Absolutely. Almost every day, man. It's is very important to me and my people really enjoy it. I was talking to somebody at Bonjoro the other day. They were they were doing like a case study on on the way I use Bonjoro. And it was interesting because it sounds like the main use case that they see for Bonjoro is is kind of setting up some automations to where at a certain point in the customer journey there's a trigger and that's when, you know, you should send somebody a Bonjoro video to try to get them over the top to make the sale. Whereas me and you are using it the same way is that we're sending the Bonjoro after the sale has been made to say thank you. Right. So, yeah, I looked into my account. I've sent over 4,000 Bonjoro is at this point. And he asked me like my open rate was on my Bonjoro and I had no idea. And I looked at it and it was 91%. Neil Benson: [00:34:50] Wow. That's... Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:51] Yours is probably very similar. You should, you should check one day. And he, he was like, he was like, "What?" And he didn't believe me. And so he got into my account and he's like, "Holy smokes. This is the highest open rate I've ever seen." But you got to, you got to put it in context, like my people have already purchased, I usually send it within the first 24 hours of them purchasing. So it's a very welcome message. Like they they're probably not going to be as excited about me as they are when when they make that purchase. Even a week later, they might be ready for a refund or sick of me. But I think that's why the Bonjoro is is so well received and I'd imagine it's the same for you. Neil Benson: [00:35:32] Yeah. My open rates, they're not 90%, but I think they're north of 60, maybe 70s, low 70s, which is really good. I probably need to tweak the subject line a little bit, but the team at Bonjoro have been really good is one thing I just wish they were able to do, and that is in my automations I'm using Zapier to trigger the Bonjoro task and I would love to be able to configure the message that should go in the little email from Bonjoro in Zapier. So I've got a welcome message. Welcome to the Customery Academy and then I've got a congratulations message. I really only use those two, but I have to I have to look it up before I start recording and I have to remember exactly which course and the message goes out. Sometimes I've sent the wrong message to somebody. I've said, "Congratulations," when I should've said "Welcome." But apart from that it's really good. I in my trial period with Bonjoro, I got a sale on the first day. So a welcome message for a student to my free course, converted into a paid student on my paid course. And so that was a really easy decision for me to sign up with Bonjoro. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:36] Excellent. Well, I'm glad you're doing things like that. That's the type of thing that I want to see course creator doing and making this more personal, even though things like that don't scale as well. You also mentioned Deadline Funnel, but you also mentioned, I don't know, ten minutes ago you took Amy Porterfield's course, and you didn't necessarily subscribe to her model of I guess you were talking about live launches, perhaps. But I think when I went to your website, I could buy your course at any time. So I'm a little confused at where Deadline Funnel comes in. Neil Benson: [00:37:09] So I use you're quite right. Amy, her model is live launches. She launches her own course, the Digital Course Academy, twice a year, I think. And she preaches that message using lots of webinars around a couple of weeks in a calendar. Open up your cart and make a lot of money a couple of times a year. I prefer I had an evergreen model before that and I've stuck with that. I haven't switched over. I may do live launches for future courses, but today my courses are available any time somebody is ready to sign up. But that's just I think for me there are in my audience, my crew. There's people out there starting a new project with a new customer any day of the week. I can't tell them when to start a project and I want them to be able to take my training when when their business is ready for it at the point at which they're going to do that. And I don't want to constrain it around a couple of times a year just to help me launch more courses. So it's evergreen, but the free course is a kind of it's almost an evergreen webinar. It's about 45 minutes of training content in that free course. And then there's like a ten minute introduction to my paid course and the benefits of it, what you get inside and how to sign up for it in the last ten minutes of that free course. And then there's a few more educational emails and then there's an offer which is a $100 discount if you purchase with the next three or four days. And that all is managed in Deadline Funnels. Jacques Hopkins: [00:38:32] I see. Neil Benson: [00:38:33] And so I. Yeah. So I'm getting pretty reasonable conversion of that process. Jacques Hopkins: [00:38:37] So it's based on when they start the free course. Right? So that's that's one of the main goals that you have for people when they visit your site, is to get them to sign up for the free course, which is kind of like a free opt-in of sorts. And that's when the Deadline Funnel timer starts for them. But it's not like they won't be able to buy it after the deadline for you. It's a $100 discount. Neil Benson: [00:39:00] That's right. Yep. So it's a little discount if you sign up within I think four days of the offer being made. So everybody who's finished the course within the previous week, they get a couple of warm up pitches saying, "There's going to be a special offer, check your inbox." And then Monday comes around, they get the special offer. It's got a $100 discount and says, "Hey it expires on Friday. And there's a couple of emails that week. Like one is, "Here's some text to help you pitch this to your manager if you need approval so you can get your training reimbursed." And yeah, just a couple of pitch messages during the week and then the cart closes or the special offer closes on the Friday afternoon. And so I learned all of that from Brennan Dunn. I don't know if you're familiar with Brennan from Double Your Freelancing and he has been on The Pat Flynn Show and he's got a course called Mastering ConvertKit, which is really a next level course and on ConvertKit really deep, like a lot of coding liquid. And this went way over my head. I took the course and then said, "Hey, Brennan, I can't implement this. I don't have the technical skills." But within his course community, I find an email marketing expert who was leveling up, taking Brennan's course, had a great copywriting skills. And so I hired him to implement Brennan's system in my business and through that free course, pitching into the paid course. And so we set all that up and we got all the copy written for that. And that's that's worked pretty well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:40:22] I'm about to call you out on something, Neil. You say you listen to every episode, big fan. You know, Brennan Dunn's been on the podcast. Neil Benson: [00:40:28] Brennan Dunn has been on your podcast. That's right. Yeah. That was reasonably recently, too. Jacques Hopkins: [00:40:32] You probably are just, I mean, it sounds like you're a course junkie. You're probably a podcast junkie, too, so. I am as well. And like, you get you start to get confused that like who was where, and this, you know, you know. So yeah, I just looked it up 152. Brennan Dunn is a great guy and yeah, Mastering ConvertKit and you mentioned that that's what you're using. Even though New Zenler does the emails, you're still using ConvertKit. Neil Benson: [00:40:53] Yeah. I don't think New Zenler's email capabilities, certainly they're not up there with ConvertKit and I don't think I could have implemented this system in New Zenler's email. Jacques Hopkins: [00:41:00] I'm glad to hear that you're using Deadline Funnel and it sounds like it is effective. You're probably aware, like with my piano course, it isn't available to buy just from the from the website. Right. And you have to enter the funnel and then I use Deadline Funnel within the funnel. A lot of people aren't comfortable with that or don't think it's right for their particular business model, like you said, that you want people when they need it to be able to get it easily. And so I think that your approach is a fine one. I think those are the two ways to do it. If you're not comfortable with removing the ability for somebody to buy the course from your site, then you can still use all the same concepts. But the incentive to buy within the funnel is the discount rather than it just being available or not available. So it sounds like that's that's working for you. I'm curious if, you know, if you sell more discounted courses or regular price courses? Neil Benson: [00:41:52] I sell more regular price courses. Jacques Hopkins: [00:41:54] Really? Neil Benson: [00:41:54] I know that for a fact. But I was really skeptical about Deadline, not Deadline Funnel the software, but the concept of of fake scarcity. I listened to your podcast. I remember this one. I remember the name of the founder from Deadline Funnel was on your show and just explained it in a really clear and simple way that I have a duty to my audience to help them make a purchasing decision. If they don't, they're going to miss out on my training. I'm going to miss out on the benefits that will bring to them in their professional career. So I have an obligation to help them make that decision and make it today. So that trip me over, it's like, OK, I've got to sign up for Deadline Funnel and again I used your affiliate link for that and implemented that in my business. And it works quite a lot of the time. I'd say it's quite polarizing. There's definitely some students who unsubscribe during that pitch period. And I got I definitely got some pushback initially when I implemented it that the marketing messages were over the top. And so I, I changed the copy and dialed it right back. And it's worked really well. In fact, I get a lot of compliments on my marketing and but I still got a lot of people who either come straight into the paid course or take the free course and upgrade to the paid course before I even pitch them. So, yeah, most of my sales, my pay course are still direct without people coming through that funnel. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:21] Very good. So I was talking about the simplicity website and I like that. I mean, I'm at Customery.com. Very, very good, big, bold headline, but very simple. There's only two menu items. Listen and Learn. You have a podcast. I'm guessing that's where the Listen takes me. Neil Benson: [00:43:38] That's right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:40] And if I scroll down a little bit, there's also a call to action that says, "Take my free mini course today." So that's we've been talking about the mini course a little bit. But if I click on Learn, that takes me over to Customery.academy. So this I'm guessing this is a New Zenler page? Neil Benson: [00:43:58] That's right. It is. It's the home page from New Zenler. So all my courses are displayed there. So there's a thumbnail for each one. It's probably five or six. So there's the main paid course, there's an audio version of that. So some people aren't ready to make a $297 commitment, so there's just the pure audio for $29. There's a Myth Busters game which nobody has ever bought. That's just a bonus that I ship with some of the other courses. And in order to make that bonus look valuable, I sell it for $49 on the home page as well. And then there's the free course and then there's a couple of future courses that are waitlisted. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:33] Ok, I got it. Thanks for that explanation. Is your are you, are you B2B? I'm guessing your B2B and not B2C. Neil Benson: [00:44:41] A bit of both. So I'm selling a lot of the times to individual students, but they're all professionals. Some of them are able to get the training expense reimbursed from their employer, whether that's a Microsoft customer or Microsoft partner business. Some of them, however, are freelancers and they're spending their own money. So it's a mixture of B2B and B2C. And then if you want to take my paid course as a team, I also have a team edition, so five enrollments for $997. And so a manager can sign up, get their team enrolled at a slight discount, and that includes one hour of coaching as well. So I've made a few of those sales this month, which is just great. I got to focus on that this year, is getting teams enrolled by outreach to Microsoft partners and customers and through these Microsoft software distributors as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:45:30] I don't have a lot of B2B experience, meaning business to business and especially on the piano side. I'm selling directly to the person that wants to learn how to play piano. It's very far from B2B, but I do get a fair amount of people coming to me and saying, "Hey, how would you how would you do things differently if it was more B2B, like any any tips for for for more B2B stuff?" Like what's your take on that? As somebody who's kind of in B2B like what, what's different about it that we need to worry about? Neil Benson: [00:45:58] So where the audience hangs out I think is is different. I've had zero success with, for example, a Facebook group. I just have no engagement on there at all. There are a couple of Microsoft Facebook groups in my community, but they're very technical, like a super technical questions. And then there's a whole lot of other technical forums as well, where people want to talk about, you know, "How do I get this feature enabled?" Or "How do I implement this or how do I resolve this error that I'm getting?" And it's a very technical content. Not a lot of people talking about how to manage the project. So I haven't found a great place for that yet and you know, in terms of somebody else's community or a community online where I can introduce myself, so I'm having to build my own. And LinkedIn groups, unfortunately has been a big failure as well. LinkedIn seems to be trying to kill the groups feature. What's been working for me recently is having my LinkedIn company page and posting regular content of mine and others in there because that's very easy to share. People can follow that company page really easily. They can engage on the content really easily and get some viral spread, which is good. Down side is they can't start a new post on there. They can only comment on one of my posts, but I could invite up to 10 other people in so I could get a little leadership community of people posting in there if I wanted to. So that's what I'm trying next. Direct messaging and LinkedIn is working. And I haven't tried Facebook Ads or Google Ads yet. I have no idea how those would go from business to business setting. Jacques Hopkins: [00:47:29] Well maybe maybe once you find success there, you can come back, share that, because I think there is a fair amount of people that that are B2B and that's not necessarily my strength. All right. So let's say I'm in your niche, I'm in your market, following you, I decide, I want to I want to go all in. I buy the the Scrum for Microsoft Business Apps course, the paid course. And the next day I get a Bonjoro from you. I can log into the site and take the course. Like, what else is there? Is there is there any interaction with you? Bonuses? Like what's the course experience like for your students?G Neil Benson: [00:48:05] Good question. So I'm trying to create a great course experience, obviously, for my students so that they will give me a good rating. They'll share it with their teammates. And I do get quite a bit of that referral business as well. Neil Benson: [00:48:17] So there are two to price plans for an individual. There's the $297 price plan. So they get the course. That includes a couple of bonuses like the Myth Busters game. I get a annotated Scrum Guide. So this is a Scrum Guide is like the official version of Scrum and you need to know that pretty well in order to pass the third party exam. So I give you my annotated guide with all my study notes in the margins, highlighting which bit you need to learn. And you got a practice exam for that Scrum.org Professional Scrum Master exam as well. And I've recently revamped that. So it's a really close experience for the for the real exam. And you get a little bit of community. I don't get a lot of engagement on the New Zenler community, but I do get people leaving comments on the lessons and so I'll respond in there. So, for example, somebody responded this week saying, "Oh, the only captures that I can get for this video are in French, what's going on?" And I had to respond, "Sacre bleu!" I'll go and fix that. And what else do I do? So there's been some follow up emails. Every time there's six sections, every time you complete a section, you get a "Well done. Here's what you've learned." "Here's what's in the next section. Click here to start that one," and then they get the certificate at the end and they can take the practice exam. We share that and LinkedIn we celebrate the success. And they're also the same time they're getting any podcast episodes or blog articles or any other interesting news that I've got to share as well. So they're on my subscription list and then there's the ultimate version, which all that same stuff, plus an hour of coaching as well. And it includes the fee for the third party certification exams. It's $150 exam fee. So I buy them a credit for that and send that to them. And so both of those cohorts come through very well, very good satisfaction ratings. I think I've had one four, everybody else has been five stars and, yep. Really enjoy that student feedback. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:17] That is good. So I know that I know my student is successful, the best way for me to know is if I see a video of them actually playing piano, playing a song on the piano. To me, if they just if I follow the back into their account and see that they went through every lesson, that's not student success. Right? But if I can see them playing piano now, I can now I can measure that. Now I can call them a success. What is a successful student for you? Neil Benson: [00:50:45] So for me, I'm trying to help people prepare for this Scrum.org Professionals Scrum Master Level One certification. So the students... Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:53] That just sounded like a bunch of gobbledygook by the way. Neil Benson: [00:50:56] Right. OK, so you might be familiar with Pat Flynn's origin story. He taught people how to pass the Lean Green Building certification exams, so mine's kind of, it's kind of similar. So I help people prepare for somebody else's exam. And that's a it's a recognized, well known industry exam. So it's gobbledygook to anybody outside the industry, which is fair. And if they pass that certification, that's a great measure of success for me. So I ask them to let me know when they've achieved that exam. And then I, I take their LinkedIn profile photograph, their certificate, and I put that on my channels on LinkedIn and within our community to celebrate that success. And yeah, that's that's really heartwarming. I've had... we had almost 100 students now have achieved that Professional Scrum Master certification, so that's a pretty good rate and some of them pass don't tell me or you know, I don't it's very hard for me to confirm that they've taken an exam. That's a good measure for me. Jacques Hopkins: [00:51:49] Well, good. I mean, it sounds like it sounds like you're having success. Your students are having success. I mean, if we could go a little higher level, like, what does this mean to you? Like, what it what does it mean to you to have a successful online course? And you can stay high level or if you have any, like, specific stories of something that's allowed you to do, I always like to hear about the whys behind what we're doing. Neil Benson: [00:52:11] So I've got a personal reason why. And it's just it's allowed me and my family to live and work in different places. So I met my wife. She's from Brisbane here in Australia, but I met her in Scotland 20 years ago and we lived in London for 12 or 13 years. And we moved to California. We lived in just outside Los Angeles for three years. And now we're in Brisbane. And we'd love to travel more to the back to those places to catch up with friends and family before a year or two at a time. And so it's very hard for me to run a consulting business where I have to be in person with a lot of clients. I'd love to have a course business where I can work, like you, you know, for 15 minutes a day and and and get to travel the world and bring my family along with me. That would be great. And it would also allow me to if I can figure out how to make it work, I can earn revenue that isn't directly tied to my time that I put into it. I'm very lucky as a consultant. I've got a lot of experience. I'm reasonably well regarded so I can charge a premium consulting fee, which is which is I'm very grateful to be in that position, but it's capped. Neil Benson: [00:53:18] I can only work for about 40 hours a week for clients and if I want to increase my revenue, I've got to work more hours and I don't want to do that. So I want to back that down, so we can travel and earn a good income from the course business. But for my students in my community, I've had the time of my life since I switched to this Agile approached in 2008. My projects have been far less stressful, far more successful. I've had a lot of my team members come up and say to me, "This is the best project I've ever worked on. This is the defining moment of my career. I got to teach everyone, I've got to tell everybody about this approach." And that's so heartwarming. I've had clients who have had success with this approach where they failed once or twice before, trying to get a trying to get an application built and live. I've had my clients promoted as a result of that success and they've gone on to have great careers. So all of that is massively heartwarming as a professional. And that's the really the reason why I do it. The income is a nice side effect of all of that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:54:21] Yeah, very good. There's a lot of takeaways from what you just said. You know, one of my top takeaways is... You're Scottish originally? Neil Benson: [00:54:27] I'm originally Northern Irish. Jacques Hopkins: [00:54:28] I've been trying to nail down your exact accent. So I'm like, wait, this isn't Australian, but it's like it's not English either. So it's it's it's originally Northern Ireland, but also like a combination of everywhere you've you've lived over the course of your life. Neil Benson: [00:54:42] Yeah. So I'm a little bit of a chameleon when it comes to accents and I pick up a little bit from everywhere I've lived. So originally from Northern Ireland, I left there when I was 18, went to university in Edinburgh in Scotland, lived there for seven or eight years and then London and as I've moved around, I've had to soften my accent a little bit more and more just to be understood. And I took some speaking lessons with a local vocal coach recently to improve my podcast and everything else. And I learned that I've been pronouncing my own name wrong for the last 40 years, which was rather embarrassing. And yeah, so I've had to work on my accent a little bit just to be understood by as many people as possible. Jacques Hopkins: [00:55:22] With your first name? Neil Benson: [00:55:22] Yeah. So in Northern Ireland it would be very flat vowel, one syllable. Neil. My name's Neil Benson. And when I moved to Australia, they, there's, there's definitely
75 minutes | 17 days ago
167: Teaching In-Person vs. Online Course & an Amazing Example of Pandemic Pivoting (Featuring Amanda Overs)
Welcome back to The Online Course Show! Today, I’m chatting with Amanda Overs. Amanda has been teaching others to make their own shoes for over ten years and recently launched her first online course. We discuss the importance of community, overcoming barriers, and learning to pivot. Enjoy! “If an idea just doesn’t work and I put heaps of energy into it… Okay, it doesn’t work. On to the next.” – Amanda Overs In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:44) David is super chuffed about today’s interview (1:40) Revisiting the podcast format (2:57) Weekly update (4:41) The Clubhouse train (8:07) Another platform?! (10:26) About Amanda (11:30) Why shoes? (11:52) How the online course happened (14:02) But why would anyone want to make their own shoes? (16:30) Why has creating an online course been on the list? (17:10) Launch strategy and using existing curriculum (19:43) Evolving to simplify (21:42) Trial and error (24:15) Overcoming supplier issues and other barriers to entry (29:20) Community and platform chat (35:19) The importance of your community (38:23) One of my students made that? (41:40) Being okay with failure (44:00) What would Amanda have done differently? (45:31) Traffic sources (50:15) Is there anything I can help Amanda with? (52:51) Realizing the potential (59:24) Where to find Amanda (59:58) Welcome back/ David’s thoughts (1:02:09) Pivoting and addressing barriers (1:07:04) Online courses as a date night? That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show. Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Resources and Recommendations: Upwork Clubhouse OnZoom Episode 161 Teachable Kajabi BuddyBoss LearnDash Thinkific Mighty Networks Life As Paper Date Night in a Box Financial Peace University Melt: Massage for Couples Angela Fehr Michael O’Neal Annie’s course Liz’s course Jacques’ Courses: Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab 167-audio-v3.mp3 Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:02] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there is a wrong way. And I'm here to help cause creators actually succeed with online courses. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:24] Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is The Online Course Show. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:32] And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins, and I'm not alone here. Regular listeners will know that there is a co-host for this show. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:42] What's going on, Dr. K.? David Krohse: [00:00:43] Oh, I'm super chuffed about this episode. I mean, you got a bloody good interview for us here. Really great. I know the listeners are going to love it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:51] Well, you know, she's, Amanda's Australian, actually. She lives in London, but she's originally Australian. David Krohse: [00:00:56] Are you serious? Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. David Krohse: [00:00:57] I did not know that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:58] Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. I don't think it came up in the conversation. You know, I always do a little research before the interview. And, yeah, you know, I'm pretty well traveled. And I used to not be able to tell the difference and say an Australian, South Africa, English accent, and so on. But, you know, she's also been living in England for, I would guess, 10 years or so. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves. But I totally got what you were doing there, man. David Krohse: [00:01:25] Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, she obviously just comes across as a lovely person and her accent is great. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:31] Yeah. And we'll get there. And that's the that's the type of gentle humor you bring to the show, man. And for those that maybe you're newer to the podcast, I just will quickly revisit this format. You know, I do the interviews, the conversations with other course creators. I do those myself. We play those in the middle of of the episode. But but you are you're the co-host here. It's me and you. And we talk about things on the beginning, at the beginning of the conversation and then at the end. So it's kind of like three there's always three parts to these episodes where the first part we're just kind of saying hi, goofing off a little bit and talking about random course creation topics. Then we get into the actual interview. And then on the on the back side, we talk about the interview, which I really like this format. Do you know of any other podcast that do it quite like we do it? David Krohse: [00:02:24] None come to mind quite like this. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:25] Yeah, I know. I mean, plenty of shows have co-hosts and I've been interviewed on several shows that have co-hosts and I'm always interviewed by both people. And, you know, we've decided you've got you've got a full time job over there. I don't know that that's that's ever going to be a great fit. But it's cool because on the back side, like, I like for you to be the voice of the listener. You listen to the conversation. It's like, hey, you just listen to this. You weren't a part of the conversation. You listened to it like what are some of your takeaways? What did you like what did you not like about it? So that's what we do around here. David Krohse: [00:02:56] Nice. Well, what's your update for the week, Jacques? Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:59] I've got a few things. Man, I just I've talked about Upwork plenty of times, but I'm just continue to be amazed by you can get almost anything done on Upwork and almost anything. And one cool thing that I'm working on right now is and if you're not musical, then this might not make a lot of sense, but one thing that's been missing from the course that teaching it live really showed me that this would be very helpful is something called backing tracks where it's other instruments other than piano playing the tune in the certain key and certain chords. And then you play your piano along with those backing tracks. And I posted a job on Upwork recently to get some developed for my course, not only develop like the music side of things, but also sync it up with a video. So it's very clear to the student when they should be playing what chord along with the song. So it actually took a pretty unique skill set that could make the music and the video. And maybe that was my mistake for trying to find one person to do both, because I really only found one person. A lot of people applied to the job. They're like, hey, I could knock this music part out, but I don't know the first thing about the video side. But I found this one guy, I believe he's in Spain and he is absolutely crushing it. Far exceeded my expectations and I would have never been able to do that myself. And I posted one of the examples to my my piano students in the in the Facebook group for my for my paying members. And they were blown away. They were like, this is insane value. Like I'm already played along with it. And I'm like, guys, I have fifteen more of these coming for the course. But just a shout out to Upwork for that, for that, for that win here this past week. David Krohse: [00:04:39] That's awesome. Awesome. Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:41] Also. Clubhouse. Have you gotten on the Clubhouse train, man? David Krohse: [00:04:47] Yeah, no thanks to you. Thanks for thanks for sharing your invites with other people. But yes, I did. I've got to get on it a couple of times here and poke around a little bit. What's your experience and thoughts? Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:56] What's with that jab, man? I gave you an equal chance to get one of my invites. You're a member of Next Level Courses. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:04] I let I let them in on my my invites. Know it's an invitation only right now. I gave them first dibs and you're in there. You could have chimed in. I assume Mr. Social Media was already on there before me. David Krohse: [00:05:15] But you've got to remember, I cut back on my Facebook usage, but... Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:18] Dude, I've had so many people like podcast listeners, people in Next Level Courses, probably 10 people are like, Jacques, you've got to get on this platform man. Like you would crush it on this platform, like talk about courses. And finally, you know, what's the tenth person told me I got to get in there. I've got to get in early. I was like, all right. Because every time I don't have an iPhone, it's been iPhone only, right? David Krohse: [00:05:41] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:41] So I was like, fine. And I got in my car and I drove to the Apple store and I bought an iPod Touch just so I could get on the silly app Clubhouse. So if anybody's not familiar with it, it's the newest social media app, audio only. It's live audio. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's different than anything I've seen before and I'm still very much experimenting with it. But, hey, I'm going to be going live later today on Clubhouse. Not that you're listening to this on the same day we're recording this, but I'm going live with several course creators, a lot of people that I've had on the podcast. And I've kind of learned that that's kind of the way you do things. You don't necessarily go live by yourself. It's good to go live with several other people. So we're going to do that today, see how it goes. Hopefully other people will join the room, ask questions, and I can give you an update. I'm not completely bought in on it, but I'm still just experimenting with it a lot. What's what's been your experience so far? David Krohse: [00:06:38] Well, I would just say that it could easily give podcasts, kind of a run for their money or become a competitor in the sense that, you know, if I go for a long walk with my dogs, there are times that I would pick a podcast and listen. And I think there will be times now that I'll just say, oh, is there anything that seems appealing on Clubhouse and potentially do that instead? So. Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:59] Well, the downside is that it's live, but the upside is that it's live as well. So if you're on a walk with your dog, you could listen to an audio book which is obviously prerecorded. You could listen to a podcast obviously pre-recorded. You could jump on Clubhouse and you could jump in the middle of a conversation from one of your favorite marketers. Even there's all kinds of topics being discussed. Politics, sports. You could jump in and then it's being presented to you live. And then if you want to, like, raise your hand, you can possibly have opportunity to speak directly to that person, which is really the unique part of this. David Krohse: [00:07:36] Nice. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:37] So keep me posted on on what you find out there. I'm we'll see. We'll see how this goes. I mean, I'm going to try to build up my audience a little bit, and that's that's what I'm going to use it for, is more of just like getting my message out versus consumption. But we'll see. David Krohse: [00:07:52] Right. Well, I mean, I think that you'll have to share when you're going live on all your other socials so that people can jump over to the Clubhouse at the right time. Correct? Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:00] I guess. I don't I don't know the playbook yet. I don't know. If somebody can give me the playbook, great. We'll see. Maybe I could develop one. So before we jump in to talking about the conversation, any other updates on your side? David Krohse: [00:08:11] Well, I did just want to share about one other new platform that I think that some course creators in our audience should look into. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:17] I just got Clubhouse. There's another new one? David Krohse: [00:08:20] Well, kind of it's a little bit different. So Zoom obviously Zoom has had a huge year, but they now have an beta service called OnZoom and it's live experiences. Some free, some paid but essentially you can go to OnZoom and there's, there's painting classes, there's, there's basically going to be classes for everything under the sun that are taught live. And so I was just thinking for people that are looking at becoming course creators that could be kind of their testing ground. Our interview today, Amanda, she was able to create an excellent course because she had taught this live for ten years. And you had this great experience just teaching live and saying I'm a better online course creator because I taught this stuff live. And so I think that looking at this OnZoom and seeing if it's a good fit for you is a great idea for course creators. The other thing is that obviously Zoom has a lot of money that sooner or later they can start to put into building this out. So when it goes out of beta and becomes mainstream, some of their top some of their top experience hosts, you know, Zoom might actually pay for advertising to build up OnZoom with that particular class. And so it could be a situation just like some of the early people that got into Udemy, I mean, they got money thrown behind their experiences and their courses. We might be coming up on a similar opportunity over OnZoom. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:44] Sometimes there's a huge advantage to getting in early and, you know, most most things flop, so it's not like something's new, you should definitely be on it, but. But we're talking about Clubhouse, we're talking about this Bitcoin like getting in early for a lot of things, like really pays off. So I'm looking for this right now. Tell me again what it's called? OnZoom? David Krohse: [00:10:05] OnZoom. Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:05] Yeah. So, I mean, I'm Googling OnZoom, which are kind of two generic words. Oh, there it is. So it's on.zoom.us. Online events, real experiences, a marketplace for immersive experiences. So we'll link to that in the show notes. I appreciate you bringing that up. I hadn't heard of it. And we'll see where that goes. David Krohse: [00:10:25] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:26] All right. So Amanda Overs, she teaches people to make their own shoes. And we're this is episode 167. And I love coming across new niches of people that we hadn't, niches we hadn't had on the podcast before. And this is certainly one of them. And I was very curious to dive into her story because I knew she'd been wildly successful with this business. And so it was just a true pleasure of a conversation. Super nice lady clearly knows what she's talking about, has a lot of great business insights. And so I'm excited to share this this conversation. So without further ado, here's the full conversation between me and Amanda Overs. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:12] Hey, Amanda, welcome to The Online Course Show. Amanda Overs: [00:11:15] Thanks so much for having me. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:17] I'm so excited to talk to you today because I get really excited, especially when there's a niche that I wouldn't have necessarily thought of, right? Teaching people to make shoes. That's just amazing. Well, why is it that this is your thing? Why is it that this is what you're passionate about? Amanda Overs: [00:11:34] Well, I've already been teaching shoemaking for 11 years. Just in person. So it kind of seemed like the natural next step to go digital with that. But I studied footwear. I've always loved making shoes. And it just sort of evolved from there, really. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:52] And so the online course piece of this is is newer to to your world, you've been doing this far longer than you have had an online course, right? Amanda Overs: [00:12:02] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:04] All right. So give me the give me the high level overview of that story. What led up to you wanting to launch an online course? Amanda Overs: [00:12:11] Well, it's funny, actually, because I wanted to do an online course for years, but the business itself was always really busy. We were running in-person courses like every single weekend. We did private tuition during the week. I had a team of like six part-time teachers that were just like in and out teaching these classes. And we never had access to our own studio space to film an online course. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:41] Because you were so busy. Amanda Overs: [00:12:42] Yeah, because there were always classes in there. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:46] I see where this is going. I think it may be COVID related. Amanda Overs: [00:12:49] It's totally COVID related. Yeah. But the funny thing is, I had written out, I write like, you know, your goals for the year, every year. An online course is like on the list every year and it just kind of never happens. But at the very beginning of 2020, I'd written on a white board like Goals for 2020 and it was like do the online course. And the deadline was by the end of the year, which is just hilarious to me now because obviously COVID hit the world, set the whole business at a complete standstill. And yeah, I mean we couldn't even access our studio for that first lockdown. So I was like, well I'm just going to film the online course from home. And that's what I did. So, yeah, the whole ethos behind our shoemaking style has been to teach people how to make shoes from home so we don't use, like, heavy machinery or anything anyway. So it's funny how things work out. You know, it was like as soon as I did it from home, I was like, I should have done it from home. That's kind of how it happened, really, how it all started. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:02] Why is it I was thinking about I was thinking about what you do and you've obviously been doing it for a long time. I was thinking about your market. Like why somebody would want to make shoes. And then I was like, well, everybody wear shoes. I mean, I'm well, I don't always wear shoes when I'm working, but I'm wearing shoes right now. It's like, but you know when I need shoes, I go buy them. Like, what's the motivation for people wanting to make their own shoes? Amanda Overs: [00:14:25] Well there's lots of different motivations. But I'd say our, easiest customer, our most common customer is people who are already crafters. So they might be already pretty heavily in the sewing industry. Well, the sewing community, I guess. So maybe they actively like to make their own clothes and then shoes to sort of feels like the next natural step. Or maybe they just like to make things in general. So that's one customer that we get quite often. But the other customers we get quite often are people who have really difficult feet. Right? So they might have like super tiny feet and they can't get shoes in their size or have really big feet and they can't find nice shoes in their size or they have bunions like, I don't know, whatever other problems they might have. Amanda Overs: [00:15:12] So, yeah, you can sort of find something in everybody because everybody wear shoes, so. Jacques Hopkins: [00:15:20] Sure. Yeah. So when people have kind of unique needs or if it's somebody that just likes to make things in general, that reminds me actually I'm thinking of a lady named Liz in my community, that is, she runs a membership on just like making things. Jacques Hopkins: [00:15:36] She teaches people to make beeswax wraps and all kinds of cool no waste products. And so she's she's going to enjoy this this conversation because you're teaching people to to make things as well. OK, so you've got the physical presence in London. Are people like coming in from all over the world to go to these workshops and in-person courses? Amanda Overs: [00:15:59] Yeah, I mean, they were. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:01] Well.... Amanda Overs: [00:16:03] They were pre-COVID. Yeah. We would have like at least two people who'd come in internationally on every single class. So, yeah, it was quite a diverse bunch of people that we that we had. Yeah. We've had a lot of people go on to like start their own shoe brands as well. So they might just want to come in, learn how to make shoes so that they can communicate properly with their factories in the future or whatever they want to do there. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:30] Well, it sounds like you've had a pretty healthy business. Like why has creating an online course been on the list for so long if things are going so well? Amanda Overs: [00:16:39] Because we get so many international students, you know? So with every international student that comes over to do because it's not just the cost of the course for them, it's also the flights, the accommodation, you know, just the cost of being in London for however long they come for. So we've always had people ask us if there's an online version. So I guess that's why it's always been on the list, is really because of the international nature of our customer base. Jacques Hopkins: [00:17:07] Yeah, very interesting. OK, so the lockdowns start, you can't really do the in-person stuff anymore. You say, OK, this is the time when I can actually film the course. Ironically, you were waiting for the studio to be available, but then you couldn't even do that. So you film it from home. What happens next? How do you go from OK, now I have the time to actually launching your course? Amanda Overs: [00:17:29] Well, yeah, it happened quite naturally, I think, because I couldn't do anything else other than the course because we were in a lockdown. So all I had to do was that. And it was I think it worked out quite well doing it from home as well, because it sort of proved the concept. I'm always saying to people, you can do this from home, but then here I am teaching in my studio where I've got everything I need. So I think by actually putting my money where my mouth is and like setting it up in my living room, it gave people sort of the confidence, I think, to trust that it was possible to do it. So, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:11] Did you start with just an existing curriculum? Maybe you started with a course that you were already teaching a person? Yeah. Amanda Overs: [00:18:17] Oh, I see what you're asking me. Yeah, no, we did exactly that. I took a course that I have been teaching and sometimes twice a month for ten years and just repurposed it. I mean, well I just filmed what I always teach. So I think in that sense it was really easy for me to do. I didn't have those steps and how to teach them inside out because it's just a course that I had already been running. So. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:44] And what was that? What was that course? What's the topic? Amanda Overs: [00:18:46] Well, that was well, in a real life sense, it's a three day course. Right. So in that course you might have a group of like maybe six people and over three days they would make a pair of shoes from start to finish. Now, everybody in that group might make a slightly different pair of shoes, depending on what is achievable within that three day time frame. So what I did is I picked out a selection of styles that people typically do on that course and just filmed them all and gave the instructions in that way. Jacques Hopkins: [00:19:24] So it was more it was more general, I'm asking that because, like right now I'm on icanmakeshoes.com and I see one of the banners at the top is "Join Our Online bootmaking Course." Amanda Overs: [00:19:34] It's evolved a lot. Right. So when I first launched the the first online course, it was based off that physical course, the three day course. After that, we then launched a mini sandal course, a sneaker making course, a patent making course, all these little courses. And what I realized was that it was just freaking people out and they were sort of like, I don't know where to start. Am I supposed to do this one first or that one first? And if I do this, will I know how to do that? And it was just really confusing people. So we ended up combining all these little courses into the shoe course and just sort of made it like... Well it's called A Beginner's Guide To Home Shoemaking. So we just included more into that one so that it was just a really amazing starting point for people. And then we later did the bootmaking course and now we only really have our shoemaking course and our bootmaking course. And that's pretty much it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:40] I think that's that's a very natural progression to go down is you think more is better. Amanda Overs: [00:20:47] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:47] Right? The more courses like you have successful with one, create more. It's very interesting that you went down that path. And what do you think the biggest problem was? Was it just overwhelming for people visiting and trying to figure out what they needed to buy from you? Amanda Overs: [00:21:02] Yeah, I think so. I think well, I think, first of all, most people don't already feel comfortable with shoemaking because it's a little bit of a different craft. And it's not a craft that I think people naturally feel like, oh, I'll be able to do that, no problem. They kind of need a bit of encouragement to know that it's totally fine for beginners, etc.. Amanda Overs: [00:21:23] So I think people just felt like they didn't know where to start and they didn't want to choose the wrong thing. And if they're spending money, they don't want to do the wrong things. So I think just by sort of having a bit of handholding and just having that one option just made it so much easier for people. Jacques Hopkins: [00:21:42] How did you how did you know that, though? How did you know that was a problem and that combining it to one course was going to be better? Amanda Overs: [00:21:49] Trial and error. We put all the little courses up. They would live. They were selling. But every time someone would inquire, they'd be like, I just want I just want a really good, like foundation for a complete beginner. And we'd be like, OK, well, then you need to do that shoe course. So we were just directing everybody to that course anyway. And then we just realized by talking to people, you know, they were confused by these little courses. So we were like, well, let's take out the confusion. Jacques Hopkins: [00:22:20] How did you how did you launch? Do you have an email list? How did you spread the word about these courses being available? Amanda Overs: [00:22:28] We did a prelaunch. I just was really active at that time, especially with our Instagram and Facebook communities, we do have an email list, but it's not massive but I was doing Instagram stories every day being like we're all in lockdown. I'm going to make you guys an online course. And then I was doing lives as I was filming it. And then I was like, OK, it's going to be ready in two weeks. We're going to do a presale and then we did a presell. And then when it was ready, we were like, OK, we're going to you know, it's launched. It's here. Here's another sale. And then we kind of got I say lucky but mean it's not lucky because it was lockdown, but our lockdown got extended. So we extended our sale, our launch sale, so to go. So kind of in that period of everybody being like not knowing how long this whole thing's going to go on for and being like, cool, I'm going to use this lockdown to like learn a new hobby. So I think just by being really active and communicative on social media is good, but yeah, we did everything. We sent emails like did the whole thing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:40] Well, I'll tell you, a lot of people wanted to learn the hobby of piano during lockdown. It was good for it was good for my business. And I'm sure things anything you could do at home, which that's that's cool about your niche is you're not you know, you don't need the heavy machinery. You're teaching people to actually make the shoes from home. And so so I'm sure that if you even if you would have had the courses already available, if you if you've been doing this for years, the online course piece, imagine how much even better the courses would have done if they were immediately available once the lockdowns started. Amanda Overs: [00:24:14] I know. It's so true. It's funny, though. I think the one thing that sort of held it back was just the supplies because we still had to get the supplies to people. So, yeah, the courses have continued to evolve loads. I mean, when we first launched, it was just like, here's the course, find your own supplies. And then it was sort of like, OK, here's the course, we sell most of the supplies and then now it's like kids because it comes with a free kit. So it's kind of as we've evolved and just sort of learnt what the blockers are for people. Jacques Hopkins: [00:24:48] Interesting. Let's let's talk about that a little bit, because, you know, I've been in business with my piano course for almost eight years now. And I do when when people buy a certain level of my package, I do physically mail them. They get a piano book and some flashcards and a few other things, a t shirt, and people will hear that they're like, oh, well, Jacques's doing that. Like when I launched my course, I need to be doing that as well. And I'm like, wait, hold on, hold on. I've been doing this a long time and I didn't offer the physical package for the first several years. Give me and it's not often that I have somebody on the podcast that that does the physical thing as well. What what is your process for that not being a huge pain in the neck? Amanda Overs: [00:25:27] It is a huge pain in the neck. It is. It totally is. But at the end of the day, from the moment we launched up until I mean, we're still evolving it, but it's just like how can we sell more? And what is stopping people? And one of the main things that was stopping people was getting access to the supplies. So we already have access to the supplies because we've been running classes for ten years. So it's a bit like it was really easy for us to execute doing that, getting that to people. And it just took away that barrier to entry I think. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:09] It sounds like I mean, even far more important for your niche than mine. The piano stuff is just kind of a bonus. It's kind of a physical version of the things you're already getting inside the course. Whereas for you, like you actually need these materials to do the things inside your course. Amanda Overs: [00:26:25] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:26] I'm guessing you have like a team in place that packages all this stuff up and does the shipping labels and everything. Amanda Overs: [00:26:32] Exactly. Yeah, we do. I mean, our whole team has just had to re-jig what we do because, you know, essentially 2020 was the start of a new business for us completely because we weren't really running any any physical courses. So, yeah, our whole studio has just turned into a stock room now and we just pack up orders every single day. And out they go. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:58] And you're and you're shipping those internationally all over the world. Amanda Overs: [00:27:02] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:03] OK, and that's just part of the course. Amanda Overs: [00:27:05] Exactly. It's just, you know, the cost of the course is just absorbed, the cost of the materials. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:12] Do you know, I think my packages cost me in materials about $40 each. And then when I ship within the United States, it's like $7 and internationally it's like $20. So we're looking at anywhere from like $50 to $60 is my cost. And then the course is about $500. Looks like your course is I can either do 425 pounds or $575. Amanda Overs: [00:27:37] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:37] Similar pricing. Amanda Overs: [00:27:38] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:39] How much the physical material is costing you? Amanda Overs: [00:27:43] Yeah. It's actually really similar. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:45] OK. Amanda Overs: [00:27:46] We don't include shipping so that's the one thing we do. We ship internationally. But in order to get your kit you have to go onto our website, select what you want because there's lots of different options. I mean, choose this heel or this heel if you want high heel or mid or flat. Amanda Overs: [00:28:04] So how it works is the people buy the online course and then they get sent to our website where they can select all of the different things that they want and then they have to pay their own shipping. So that certainly helps depending on where they are in the world. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:25] Interesting. Amanda Overs: [00:28:25] Yeah, we're trying to find new suppliers at the moment so that we can get the cost of the kit down. So that we can absorb the cost of the shipping because that's another barrier to entry, people are like, oh, the shipping is too expensive because the shoemaking materials are heavy. Right? Like all the stuff. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:41] Oh yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, your shipping costs are probably higher than mine. Amanda Overs: [00:28:45] They are. Yeah, they are especially going to the U.S. They're expensive. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:52] So people get prerecorded videos, they get a physical package. What else does somebody get when they sign up for this course? Amanda Overs: [00:29:02] Well, it's the physical package, the videos. They get access to our community. We do like Q&A's every now and then and live sessions every now and then, but yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:16] Is the community on Facebook or somewhere else? Amanda Overs: [00:29:19] Well, we have the Facebook community and then we also have a Q&A section within Teachable. So within the course itself, which I actually think is quite good because people can ask questions about a specific step and then you can obviously read up the other questions other people have asked and everything. So. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:39] I do think that's good. I'm migrating my course right now from one platform to another. And one of the features that I'm going to include in the new version is under at the bottom of each lesson, like a Q&A section. So that like right when you're on that specific lesson page, you can you can ask questions about it and not have to jump all the way over to the community or to a general discussion. And we can focus in on that lesson. So it sounds like that's what you're doing within Teachable. Amanda Overs: [00:30:04] Yeah, exactly. Jacques Hopkins: [00:30:06] Why did you go with Teachable? Amanda Overs: [00:30:09] A couple of reasons. One, I had already participated in a couple of online courses on Teachable, so I just already kind of felt like I was comfortable with the platform. But I also really liked that you just pay a membership fee and that they don't charge you a percentage for every single sale that comes through. And I just yeah, I just kind of liked the ease of it all. It's quite easy to engage with affiliates and build your sales pages and stuff. It's probably it's probably something that will outgrow at some point, I think. I know there are other platforms like Kajabi and stuff like that that integrate with your email marketing and everything, which will probably grow into. At the moment Teachable just seemed like well at the moment it's serving us well. And at the time it just seemed like the the easiest. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:03] Sure. Amanda Overs: [00:31:04] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:04] I did. I did a deep dive recently and podcast listeners will know that, but I evaluated like what I would consider like the top 16 different online course platforms because I wanted to share that with the audience. But I was also interested in moving to a different platform. Amanda Overs: [00:31:18] Which was the best one? Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:21] Well, so have you heard of ClickFunnels? Amanda Overs: [00:31:24] Yes, I have, Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:25] That's where my course has been the past, like four years. That's what I'm moving off to, because what I what I determined was that it's really good at the sales funnel part of things, but not so good at the course side of things. Just really, really simple. The reason I don't have a Q&A and the lessons now is because it's just not possible, basically. It's very just very limited. So that's that's where I've been. The best one is extremely subjective, right. Because everybody's got different needs. So the platform I picked is not necessarily the best for you or for for everybody. I am going to more of a WordPress based solution using something called LearnDash and BuddyBoss. And I'm going to have my community and my course and everything is going to be all in the same place. I'm going to move my community off of Facebook like a Facebook group and into the same place as the course. Amanda Overs: [00:32:19] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:32:20] And the other really nice thing about BuddyBoss and LearnDash is they have a they have a service or a I don't know exactly what to call it, but I can then package all of that up and turn it into a branded mobile app as well. Amanda Overs: [00:32:34] Wow. That is good. Jacques Hopkins: [00:32:35] Yeah it is. So in in March that will be a actual Piano In 21 Days app, which is just the same exact stuff that is what you would see when you log it on a web browser as well. So that's we're right in the middle of all that. Amanda Overs: [00:32:51] But is it a huge exercise? I only I know that it's coming to me and I'm kind of nervous about doing I know I'm going to have to migrate soon. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:00] That's interesting that you're already thinking about migrating because, I mean, Pat Flynn uses Teachable, like a lot of big people use Teachable and have lots and lots of students. I personally am not a huge fan. Amanda Overs: [00:33:10] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:11] I think I think it's also quite limited. But it's interesting that you're fairly new to this and you're already thinking about switching platforms. Amanda Overs: [00:33:17] Well, it's just because and and it has been really good like it it honestly has been the best, I think for us like the best possible platform to launch with, but it's just as you get deeper with it and you start like learning more about your students and then they go through different journeys. It actually doesn't integrate that cleverly with other funnels and things like that, right? Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:45] I mean, it's it's I mean, if you go back and listen to that episode of the podcast where I revealed like, which when I was picking and did my evaluation, like basically I rated Teachable last. Amanda Overs: [00:33:56] I'm going to go listen to it after this. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:58] That doesn't mean and one of the messages I try to convey in that episode, too, is like which platform you pick is by far not the most important thing. Right. You've obviously you're very successful. Your students are getting results like it conveys the information you want to convey. And there's there's far more important aspects. But and I don't think it's probably the top priority thing you need to be thinking about is migrating off of Teachable at this point. But that's just my hopefully unbiased opinion. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:28] The top four that I now recommend to people would be Kajabi for sure. And then the BuddyBoss/LearnDash solution, which is what I'm going with, I almost said Teachable, no, Thinkific. Amanda Overs: [00:34:41] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:42] And Mighty Networks. Have you heard of Mighty Networks? Amanda Overs: [00:34:45] No, I haven't heard of Mighty Networks. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:46] Yeah, that one's really interesting. In fact, I was really close to going with Mighty Networks for mine because they also offer the branded app solution. The thing I love about Mighty Networks is they were a community platform first and then added... Then they added online courses. Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:35:04] They're the only one of all of these that that went that direction like Kajabi and think like they now have some community aspects to them. Teachable has the Q&A part. Amanda Overs: [00:35:14] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:35:14] But Mighty Networks started as just a community platform and now they have online courses and I'm big on community like when I talk about online courses I don't want it to just be some prerecorded videos. Like I want to have community, I want to have some interaction, like I want people to do everything we could possibly be doing for students to find success. Amanda Overs: [00:35:32] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Honestly, we wouldn't have had nearly any of the success that we've had if it wasn't for the community. And even just in in what I was saying before, like how the courses have evolved just by literally asking them. It's like instead of just guessing, it's like, OK, this confusing to you, would this be less confusing? And then we were like, what's missing? Everybody was like, I just want to do boots. So, we were like, OK, we'll we'll do a boot course. So which coincidentally, I started filming right when we went into our second lockdown. I just spent my lockdowns recording online courses basically. But yeah, it's like without the community, it just really would have been complete guesswork, to be honest, even down to like the shoes, like the boots that I selected to make in the bootmaking course I put out on our social media channels and within the Facebook community, it was like, do you want this one or this one? You know? And it was all voted for and everything. So, yeah, it certainly made making decisions and it easier. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:39] For the communities is obviously great for that. And it's such a novel concept to like, ask your your your customers, your students and your prospective students what they're struggling with or what they need. But the community is also what I found just phenomenal for people just interacting with each other. Like other people going through this same same journey. I could only imagine that your community people are constantly just sharing photos of what they've been able to accomplish. Amanda Overs: [00:37:04] Yeah. And it's so good for us as well, because as part of the business just evolving with all this new online stuff, we have to sort of look at the fact that we used to gather all of our social content from our physical classes every week we would have at least ten people or whatever through the doors and we get photos of all the shoes and that would be like ten days worth of content. So we don't really get that anymore, so we really rely on the user generated content and the more people interact with each other in the community, the more willing they are to share that content with us and for us to share it. So I think it just takes away like a certain fear that people might have of judgment or something. But if they're comfortable within the community, then they feel really comfortable sharing their work. So, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:37:58] The other day, just a few days ago, I, you know people are always posting of videos of them playing piano in my community, so I guess similar to them having made a shoe for you. And that's one of my favorite things in the world, is to see those videos and hear people playing who weren't able to play as little as a few weeks prior. For you, are you ever just, like, blown away? Like sometimes you expect certain things, but sometimes it's like they took it just to another level, like, wow. One of my students made that. Amanda Overs: [00:38:34] Yeah. It happens all the time. I mean, it happens on both ends of that spectrum. Right. Like I get sometimes I see stuff and I'm just like I'm just sort of like, wow, you know, really interesting designs. But yeah, I mean, especially in the last couple of months, like, really, really amazing shoes have been made. And it's it's interesting because it's been almost like almost all of 2020 was the courses were out, but I think it's taken people, months to settle into it, and maybe people have made a couple of pairs of really questionable shoes before they start to make some stuff that's really, really good. So it's really been in the last couple of months that I'm starting to see really, really impressive shoes and boots that people are making. And what's most impressive is when they take instructions that I've given for two completely different shoes and they kind of mesh them together and make their own unique design. And that's amazing. I mean, that's what it's all about, really. So. Jacques Hopkins: [00:39:47] Well, I mean, some people would say it's all about the money. Amanda Overs: [00:39:50] Yeah, that helps, too. Jacques Hopkins: [00:39:53] So going back to like when you were when you were filming your course about to launch type stuff, I guess back in maybe May-ish? Amanda Overs: [00:40:04] March, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:40:04] March, ok. You already mentioned that you regretted having all these different courses for sale and then eventually you did package them up. You mentioned that Teachable has got its pros, but it's also got its cons. What else do you think, if anything, would there be like looking back, would you have done different? Amanda Overs: [00:40:26] I think the only thing I would have done differently is to just have figured out that I wanted to just do these two courses all along. I didn't know at that point that we wouldn't really be running physical classes for the whole rest of the year and now into 2021. So I don't think I would have done anything different, to be honest. It's I think it's all a learning curve. I've always liked to grow my business quite organically and I think the online courses I grew quite organically. If I hadn't have done all those smaller courses, then it might still be something that I'm like, oh, we need to do this, because that's how I that's how I sort of operate. I am constantly doing trial and error and I am totally cool if an idea just doesn't work and I put heaps of energy into it, I'm like, OK, it doesn't work onto the next. So yeah, I'm absolutely cool with that. It's just if I hadn't have done those little courses, I'd probably still have in the back of the mind that I want to try them. You know? Jacques Hopkins: [00:41:31] That's that's hard, Amanda. I don't like I almost don't even believe you because even at this point, like, I want everything to work, like everything I ever do. I want it to work. Like, how do you think you've gotten to a place where you're OK with failure? Amanda Overs: [00:41:43] I don't know. I've just always been like that. And also, I, I don't often have failures because I don't do things that I don't really believe are going to work or that I don't really believe are good, you know? Like I'm not out there trying to tell people, like I'm the best shoemaker in the world. And after you do this course with me, you're going to be like, hugely successful. I'm like I've been making shoes for many years. I love what I do. I've been teaching it for years. And here is how I would teach you to do it, to do it as a total beginner. So it's like, you know, as long as I own what I'm doing, it can't go wrong. Someone can't be like, well, I wasn't good at it. It's like, well, that's OK. You're a beginner. Keep going. Keep practicing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:31] Yeah. Amanda Overs: [00:42:31] You know, but... Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:32] You had I mean, when you launched your online course, you'd been teaching this material for, I guess, almost ten years. So that's you knew it was going to be a success. Amanda Overs: [00:42:42] Yeah. I was already so confident with the material because of that, because I've been teaching it already for so long and because I was doing that that prelaunch hype, right? So I knew that people were interested because I was going on Instagram stories and being like, I'm going to do this online course, like, does anybody want to go on a waiting list? And then loads of people like, yeah, yeah, yeah, me, me, me. So I was like, well obviously people want this. When I launched the mini courses, I didn't go on that being like, hey, does anyone want me to launch a small sneaker making course? And maybe I should have done that. That's what I would have done differently. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:22] Build up the hype. Amanda Overs: [00:43:23] I would have. Yeah. Or I just, you know, I think I think I was relying on my community a lot without really realizing the value of it. So I got all this valuable information and had a hugely successful launch. And then I just guessed for a bit. And then I was like, oh, this isn't working. Went back to talk to them, took those courses back down or sort of absorbed them into the bigger course. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:47] Not everybody has an audience when they go to launch their first online course, which is one of the biggest problems that I see. And that's why a lot of the times I'll recommend people just like, hey, let's start building an audience first before we think about putting an online course together. If you didn't have an audience yet and got an idea for an online course, then what do you think the steps you would take be? Amanda Overs: [00:44:14] I'm a really strong believer in doing surveys, so I probably start there. There's so many communities online, right? So it's like even if you don't have your own, you can go to other communities and float your ideas. And I think there's a really blurred line there between people going on public communities or communities that are owned by another brand of business and sort of flogging themselves and saying, like, this is what I do. I'm going to try and sell my product to your community. And it doesn't really work. But I think starting... Starting conversations or contributing to conversations that have already been taking place on communities to sort of try and try and just gauge whether people are interested in what you're doing, I guess, or whether they're interested in what you have to say or what you have to offer. But, you know, it is always way more valuable to have your own community, so I would definitely suggest trying to stop building one before you start. But, yeah, there's a lot of communities out there that you can already utilize as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:45:29] Agree, 100%. Let's go back and talk about traffic a little bit. You mentioned earlier that don't have a massive email list, which is it's all relative. I know on Instagram, you've mentioned Instagram a lot as far as marketing goes. Looks like you're almost at 30,000 followers there, which I would say that's not a massive account either. But some people might call that massive. I mean, I've got probably 2,000 followers on Instagram, so that's very impressive for me. How big is your email list and what is your biggest traffic source? Amanda Overs: [00:46:03] Biggest traffic source is Facebook, Instagram. Email list is like under 10,000. Like around that. But we don't honestly I don't have the biggest success rate in my email list and that's something that we're going to be working on a lot this year because it's just I mean, email is like number one. Right. But it isn't for us. So I know there's like a huge missed opportunity there, but yeah, Facebook, Instagram is for sure our biggest traffic source. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:35] Any paid ads or is it all organic? Amanda Overs: [00:46:38] We started doing paid ads just at the end of last year. But yeah. Up until then it's been totally organic. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:48] So when I go to your site once again, icanmakeshoes.com, there is a banner at the top for the boot course that we talked about. And then there's also one of the menu items is online courses, which then takes me to the Teachable sales page where I can go and sign up for either $575 US or 425 in pounds. I'm sure you're familiar with different marketing strategies. Some people don't even allow you to buy from the website and you kind of have to enter a funnel and go through a few hoops. What are your thoughts on just making it available at any point in time? Amanda Overs: [00:47:26] We're actually redeveloping our whole website at the moment, so it's not that easy to navigate and it's also not that easy for us to track with our paid ads because we're sending people to a sales page on Teachable rather than just sending them to a check out there. So we are improving all of that a lot. Jacques Hopkins: [00:47:51] So some people, myself included, like you go to pianoin21days.com, you can't actually buy the course on there. Like, I want you to enter the funnel and you can really only buy it through emails. Amanda Overs: [00:48:04] Well, we've got a few different things running all at the same time. So we have got like two funnels running at the moment which come with gated content. So like a free course, a free mini course. And then, you know, you get a discount if you sign up for the full course and then so on and so forth. But because most of our traffic is coming through social media, we actually have a huge portion of people that are just like it's literally swipe up link and that will come from there. So that's working really well at the moment. So we're going to keep it there. But as part of the redev, I think there'll be a lot more going on with our email marketing and funnels and all that kind of stuff as well. Amanda Overs: [00:48:55] But I still think I don't know, I'd have to1see really strong success from the funnels I think before I felt comfortable enough to actually take it down, take that automatic buy down. Jacques Hopkins: [00:49:09] I'm certainly not suggesting you should do that. But there is great power in scarcity and some people will. Some people do it like you do and have great success. Some people choose to just do like two launches a year. And you know that way you can just kind of build up the hype around this event. Just have like one or two just big launches throughout the year. And then other people do more of an evergreen funnel approach where you can't necessarily buy on the website. But through the funnel is always going it. It's not like the live launches. So there's a few options there and yours is working. So it's hard to consider doing other things, but what if one of the other strategies sold five times as many more than five times more success stories around the world? Amanda Overs: [00:49:56] I know. I mean, I guess as at the same time as you're filming this online course and selling it and everything, I've also been sort of teaching myself how to be an online course provider. So there's still so much that I have to figure out for sure. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:15] Anything I can help with? Amanda Overs: [00:50:17] Yes, help, I guess. Well, I guess it's just figuring out exactly that, like, what are the different, you know, methods in which you can sell and how is the best way to run them simultaneously so that you can test them all? Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:34] Well, I know like for me, back in early 2016, when you went to pianoin21days.com, it was it was basically a sales page where you could buy the course. And I was making about a $1,000 a month and then at some point 2016I changed that out for a funnel and with the same traffic in the same course I started making about $10,000 a month from the course. And so my very small experiment showed 10x results in doing that because scarcity is very powerful. Amanda Overs: [00:51:06] For sure. Jacques Hopkins: [00:51:08] So that's usually what I encourage people to do. Split testing. That would be a little difficult. It would be more probably like saying for the month of February, we're going to try this other approach and see how that goes and compare it to January. For my experience, I would I would think that it would do pretty well. But it's also a matter of what you're comfortable with. And if you just prefer just having it the way that you have it, then there's a lot to be said for that. Amanda Overs: [00:51:33] Yeah, well, I guess I guess that's like the the main thing we're sort of figuring out now is, OK, we've we've worked out that having these two courses is the best way. But it's like, how do we maintain that? Know those evergreen sales, like you said, whilst we use our time to do other projects and to nurture the community, because really we have to keep nurturing that community in order to get all that amazing user generated content.So, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:52:06] So that's the biggest thing. Like, you're you're you're still new to this world. So you're you're trying to figure out how to be as successful as possible course creator at this point in time, you've you've been able to have a lot of success already because you're you're already a savvy business person. You already have an audience. Looks like there's still plenty of room for growth and you clearly know what you're doing. But I think if there's there's no limit to what you could be doing here. Amanda Overs: [00:52:30] Yeah, for sure. It's so true. I mean, when I look at it and I think about other people in this space around the world, there's really not that much competition for me. So it's actually just a matter of getting in front of as many curated eyeballs, I suppose, as possible. So, yeah, I think I'm looking to grow a lot in the next couple of years. And I mean, it's just amazing to see, like we've, had usually doing like, I don't know, 250 students a year on our physical courses. And we had 250 people enrolled in the first couple of months, you know, that was just like so fast. So it really has sort of shown me how much further outreach can be by having the online courses. And now I wish I had done it years ago. It was really funny. I always say to people, I'm like, all I did was recorded a course that I've been teaching twice a month for ten years and I'm just like, idiot, why didn't I do this sooner? But. Jacques Hopkins: [00:53:45] Yeah, because then I mean, people that's that's one of the great things about online courses, is it allows you to scale that presentation so well, you know, that exact curriculum presentation, like you could do it in your sleep, you know, like the back of your hand. Amanda Overs: [00:53:59] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:54:00] But once you record it now people can watch it without you having to give the presentation. Amanda Overs: [00:54:06] Yeah, exactly. It's great. Jacques Hopkins: [00:54:10] So next, tell me about the book. Why, why add a book to everything you're doing? Amanda Overs: [00:54:17] The book actually came out beforehand. So at the I started I can make shoes at the very beginning of 2010. So at the end of 2019 I wanted to do something special to celebrate ten years in the industry. So and the book actually was my original idea for the business. So when I started I Can Make Shoes, I wanted to write a book and then I was like, well who's going to buy my book? So I'll run a couple of workshops to test out the steps and see if they make sense to people. And then I'll write this book, do some workshops and then they just took off. And the book was just like a redundant idea. So it sort of felt really good after ten years to come back to that and make a book and release and so much better doing it that way around, because then I had ten years worth of experience to put in the book as well. So I guess all blown out of the fact that there really wasn't any learning material available for people to make shoes from home as a hobby craft, you know what I mean? Jacques Hopkins: [00:55:26] Are you selling more books or courses? Amanda Overs: [00:55:28] Courses. For sure. But interestingly, a lot of people who buy the course also want the book. It's sort of like, I don't know, like committing to a craft like shoemaking you sort of and this is, I think, why the free kit also does really well, because if you're going to be spending around $500 and you're going to be committing your time to taking on this craft, it's like you do kind of want to get like a package of stuff. And I think that's why people also want to get the book as well. It just feels a bit more official or something gives people a bit more confidence as well, I think that we've got a book out there. You know, we sold like 1,000 copies of the book in one year just through our own website, like not on Amazon, not on anything else. Amanda Overs: [00:56:18] So, yeah, it's been I think I think the book has given people sort of extra confidence in us, and that's probably helped give people the confidence to buy the course as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:56:29] Yeah, there's there's something about physical. I mean, I've had my my 100 page work book that accompanies the course in the portal since it first launched in 2013. Only in the past couple of years I've I had a physical version of that. It's behind me right there. It's a little blurry in the shot because I like to have a blurry background, but that's one of the things that I send out in the physical package. Have you considered maybe sending the book in the physical package or maybe you're doing that already? Amanda Overs: [00:56:59] We're not doing that already. No, because the book is so expensive. In fact, we've just we're going for another print run now. And our second print run is going to be way cheaper than the first one, which is so good. But yeah, before that, it was just, you know, it was sort of to celebrate the ten year anniversary and it was just done with an expensive spared. It was just the best of the best quality for absolutely every single part of it, which is really awesome because now in round two, everything's way cheaper, but the quality is all going to remain exactly the same, even down to like the paper stock that we use. Jacques Hopkins: [00:57:39] Wow. Amanda Overs: [00:57:39] So I'm super chuffed about that. But up until now it was just it was too expensive to include in there. We did include an e-book version, thought. So if you sign up for the shoemaking course, you also get digital access to the book and we don't have digital access to the book anywhere else, like it's not for sale as an e-book anywhere else. So. Jacques Hopkins: [00:58:02] I got it. Amanda Overs: [00:58:03] That's kind of like a bonus. Bonus extra. Jacques Hopkins: [00:58:07] So is your audience just women or do you teach how to make men's shoes as well? Amanda Overs: [00:58:12] All of the shoemaking techniques that we teach are unisex, but 90 something percent of our audience is women. So I really do target women most. Jacques Hopkins: [00:58:24] Well, I'm wearing some of my favorite Chelsea boots right now. I'm showing you right now. Can you make, show me how to make some Chelsea boots that I could wear? Amanda Overs: [00:58:31] Chelsea boots are included in the bootmaking course. But yeah, styles like that are great because they are totally unisex. You know, all you need is a men's last, a women's last, which is the shoemaking block. And the steps are exactly the same. And the same goes for if a man wants to make a high heel, it's like the steps are the same. It's just the size. It is different, you know. Jacques Hopkins: [00:58:56] Yeah. I just I bet there's something really cool about wearing shoes that you've actually made. Amanda Overs: [00:59:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really great feeling. I mean the best feeling is when you're out and someone says, "I love your shoes," and then you're like, "Oh I made them!" Jacques Hopkins: [00:59:11] Oh man, that would be so cool. Amanda, this has been a true pleasure. It's good to to have gotten to know you a little bit. And thanks for sharing your story with the audience. Amanda Overs: [00:59:19] Yeah. Thanks for having me. Jacques Hopkins: [00:59:22] That's going to be a wrap here. So just in closing, let people know once again where they can connect with you, find you online, and if there's anything else that maybe I missed over that, you think that would be helpful for the for the audience. Amanda Overs: [00:59:36] Yeah, well, anything all the information that anyone would need is on icanmakeshoes.com. And yeah, you'll find all of the links to socials there. Thank you so much for having me. It's really informative for me as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:59:52] Awesome. That's great to hear. OK, thanks so much, Amanda. Take care. Jacques Hopkins: [00:59:58] All right. Here we are back part two of this episode is done. That was the conversation between me and Amanda. Dr. K., welcome back. What did you think about that conversation? David Krohse: [01:00:08] Oh, it was just so much fun to listen to. And I don't actually think that I would join the course to make shoes, but I could feel how what she does is just really this super exciting life experience for people. The closest I could come to relating was probably back in like ninth grade when I made a tie dye shirt and yeah, somebody complimented me on my shirt, I was just like walking on clouds, I was like, that's awesome. But yeah, it's super cool. Making shoes. Jacques Hopkins: [01:00:35] Yeah, well I mean, a lot of people like to make things with their hands. Personally, I like to make things like digital things more. I'm not I'm not a bit out there like that. I gave a shout out to Liz, who I think you know a little bit about, in our Next Level Courses community who's absolutely
5 minutes | 24 days ago
State of The Online Course Show/Guy
Today’s episode is a little different. It’s a short, casual episode with no interview, no Dr. K., just me. I want to share some updates and changes coming to The Online Course Guy and The Online Course Show. Thanks for listening! “So my brand and this podcast are going through a few changes right now, and I thought the least I could do was keep you in the loop on what’s going on.” – Jacques Hopkins In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:32) Keeping you in the loop (1:14) Piano course updates and platform migration (2:32) Room for growth (3:25) Scaling back (3:46) What this means for the podcast That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Jacques’ Courses: Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:02] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help horse creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is the The Online Course Show. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:32] Hey, everyone. It's Jacques. And welcome back to the The Online Course Show. This is kind of an unofficial and pretty casual episode and pretty short. Just me, no interview, no Dr. K. So my brand and this podcast are going through a few changes right now, and I thought the least I could do was keep you in the loop on what's going on. One of the biggest struggles that I've had since starting this podcast way back in 2017 and the brand of The Online Course Guy is how to balance my time and efforts, considering I'm still very much running Piano In 21 Days as well. My online piano course. With a lot of thought and prayer, it's become clear to me lately that I need to give Piano In 21 Days more attention than I have been. Most of you know that I'm going through some updates of my piano course, both an entire new version of the course as well as a complete migration to a new course platform and my original plan was to have everything up and ready by December 1st and we didn't hit that. But then we targeted the new year. Didn't hit that. Then February 1st. And I'm recording this in early February and it still has not launched. And you have no idea how crazy that is driving me. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:42] We are extremely close at this point, but it is still not up. And add to that, when I reviewed my financials for 2020 and see that I had my first seven-figure year coming in at $1,015,000. Revenue only, of course we had lots of expenses. But that Piano In 21 Days brought in around 950K of that and the Online Course Guy brought in around 50K of that. It really makes you think. Dave Ramsey is someone I've listened to for a very, very long time. And one concept he always talks about is when someone pays you or buys something from you, the money they are giving you are certificates of appreciation. So I'm not saying that you don't appreciate me or this podcast or some of the other things that I have to offer on this side of things. But the unbelievable amount of certificates of appreciation I received from essentially one piano course in 2020 is amazing. And the more I look at it, I think there's just so much more room for growth, for teaching new people piano, for having more piano programs, for having more piano teachers on the team, for doing a better job with advertising, more with the YouTube channel, with the affiliate program and so on. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:47] And I've been doing a disservice to my piano students and potential piano students by splitting the same or possibly more time on this brand, The Online Course Guy, than on Piano In 21 Days over the past few years. The current version of my piano course is four years old. That's how long it's been since the last time I recorded it. And it is absolutely insane how much better this new version is going to be than the last version. With how successful my students have been, I am so excited how much more successful they will be with this new version. I think more people are going to stick with it. They're going to have more fun with it. They're going to be sharing it more and so on. So what's happening is I'm officially just scaling back on this brand. It's not going away completely. This podcast is not going away. I enjoy doing this podcast too much for it to go completely away. What's happening is that I've closed the doors to all of my programs. I'm not accepting anyone new into any of my Online Course Guy programs. I'm scaling back my involvement inside of those programs as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:46] In this podcast is going to stay exactly the same, except we're going to go to every two weeks instead of every one week. And I'll continue to share updates with you about what's happening in Piano In 21 Days on this podcast. I'll continue to offer a lot of value without requiring anything in return. So I completely hope that you stick around and keep listening to The Online Course Show. And all of this is is likely temporary. I love this brand. I love helping you with your own online courses and programs. I just need to take a step back right now. My hope is also that this time will help bring some clarity to how I can best monetize this brand and present you with the very best offers and programs for where you are. So thank you so much for listening. You are such a loyal and generous audience. I love hearing from you guys and what you're working on with your courses. And if there's something that I've said on the podcast or in one of my programs that's helped you, I love hearing that even more. But I really hope and I think you will understand why I'm doing this. Thank you for listening. Talk to you soon. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
76 minutes | a month ago
166: This 18-Year-Old is Making Thousands a Month with an Online Course (Featuring Andrew Seguin)
On today’s episode, I’m sitting down to chat with Andrew Seguin about his online course success. Andrew is consistently making five-figures per month with his course. He shares his wisdom on using Facebook ads, fixing your mindset, and more. Did I mention that Andrew is only 18? There’s so much we can learn from this guy! Enjoy! “The truth is you can do it… you just have to fix your mindset.” – Andrew Seguin In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:40) David’s social media detox attempt (3:53) Water cooler talk (6:18) Piano In 21 Days milestone (9:14) Podcast growth for 2020 (11:48) Introducing Andrew Seguin (12:49) Andrew’s story (14:18) First glimpse into entrepreneurship (16:16) An epiphany moment (18:38) YouTube channel revisited (19:49) Building on past experience and finding motivation and inspiration (23:02) Andrew’s influences and the importance of mindset (25:26) Finding success (28:50) Another business low (30:03) I was funnel-hacked (32:00) Facebook ad strategy and testing ads (36:52) Andrew shares a student success story (37:26) So, what is fingerstyle guitar? (39:07) What’s next for Andrew? (42:20) Handling the haters (44:58) Andrew’s advice on imposter syndrome (48:04) Battling the time sucks (51:11) Where does Andrew want to be a year from now? (53:43) Tools and books Andrew recommends (58:49) A last piece of advice (1:03:00) What were David and I like at 18? (1:04:47) Will my daughters be entrepreneurs? (1:07:43) David shares his success with Facebook ads (1:14:52) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Guest Links: Fingerstyle Guitar Academy Resources and Recommendations: Freedom App The Year of Less Nate Dodson’s Microgreens Course My interview with Smart Passive Income My interview with ChooseFI Episode 161 Episode 164 MailChimp TrustPilot Typeform Deadline Funnel Product Launch Formula ManyChat Deigo Davila’s Udemy Course ActiveCampaign LearnDash BuddyBoss Profit First Unshakable Expert Secrets Total Recall The Great Brain Expert Secrets Watermelon Explosion ad Show Her Off Bigspy Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab 166-audio-v1 Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:00] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it, but not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way. And there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is The Online Course Show. And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I'm your host Jacques Hopkins. And over there is our co-host. What is going on Dr. K? David Krohse: [00:00:40] Oh man. I'm a couple of days into taking all the social media apps off my phone. So if I come across a bit jittery, uh, just a little bit of withdrawals here, so... Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:50] Whoa. I know what that means, man. You've got a problem. You are an addict. What, tell me how this came about. David Krohse: [00:00:57] Oh man. Just, uh, I mean we're recording Tuesday morning, but Sunday night it's like a, this is just, I look at it too much. And so I don't actually blame, but I don't actually blame the social medias, but uh, it's the guy in the mirror needed some time off. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:12] It's addictive, man. We've talked about that now. Here's a problem. Here's a problem. What people do, what you do, they start on installing their apps. You can install Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and so on. Then that addict just needs to get their fixed. And you just open up your browser and you start going to the websites. Have you found yourself doing that, where you're just using facebook.com instead of the app? David Krohse: [00:01:34] Um, yes. So I looked at Facebook some during work yesterday. When I got into my office to record the podcast, I took a quick look and, uh, yeah, but I still had a more productive yet... day yesterday. And I did more reading last night and I, I think I'll keep it off for a few days here. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:50] These things are inherently addictive. I haven't had the Facebook app on my phone in a very long time, many years, but I do historically have found myself wanting to just like go to facebook.com. And that's just not a great use of my time on my phone. And so look, I'm going to try to go to facebook.com on my phone right now. And I know the listeners can't see this, but it redirects to blocked.freedom.to, I guess. And it says, "You are free. Enjoy this moment." So little hack for you, if you find yet that's becoming a problem. There's a great app called Freedom, which will allow you to, well, it'll, it'll actually allow you to block certain apps on your phone, but also certain websites too. And you can schedule it, right? So if you work a day job and you, you don't want to do those things from, from 8:00 to 5:00, or maybe it's the opposite, and you don't want to do those things outside of your day job, but during your day job, you need that fix. You can schedule it. I just have it, I just have it blocking one site, have it blocking facebook.com and a 24 hours a day. That's just not something I want to be doing on my phone. David Krohse: [00:02:51] Nice. Well, kind of funny, but the only thing, the closest thing to a social network still on my phone is your Slack channel. So I'm like jumping on your Slack channel, like 12 times a day, like what's going on in here. And it's just like crickets. Uh, your team is very efficient and things are automated. They're not, there's not tons of conversation needed. And I'm like, oh, maybe there's something new. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:15] That's hilarious. And we do a lot in Asana as well. It'd be nice if those apps could, some could be one app instead of two, but a lot of the conversation does happen... Uh, the conversation about like the actual tasks and projects more happens on, on Asana, whereas Slack is more general. So you'll only see a post or two per day, really. David Krohse: [00:03:34] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:35] And you're not, you're not in all the Slack channels, either. Keep that in mind. We've actually got like 15 or 20 different channels and you're only in one or two. David Krohse: [00:03:42] Oh, gotcha. Yeah. I don't fully understand how Slack works, but yeah, hasn't been super fulfilling from a social perspective. So, back to my books I go. So what's your water cooler talk for the day? Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:54] Water cooler talk? David Krohse: [00:03:55] Yeah, like, uh, like if we were at an office, you know, you catch up at the water cooler. Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:00] I am so over the cold. David Krohse: [00:04:03] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:03] Like this has been a pretty, pretty cold winter so far. And it's just like, it's been in the thirties down here and that's just unaccepted. Like, I, I'm so over it. And, uh, I'm ready to, to get into the spring. So the sooner that can come the better. But I talk about that on the podcast a lot. In fact, I have my space heater going so far up. I don't know if it's affecting the audio quality right now, but it's keeping me toasty back here in my office and I'm just going to keep it on. David Krohse: [00:04:28] Nice. Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:29] What about you? What's yours? David Krohse: [00:04:31] Um, well, the last couple, uh, last couple of recordings were really fun. I thought that I should play them for my wife. And so she was super inspired after hearing your student playing that Billy Joel song. And, uh, she was like, "Now, If somebody doesn't have a piano, like how do they start?" And I said,"Well, you just got to get on Jacques's list and you can, uh, you can get a recommendation of keyboards. I think they're around $200." And she's like, "Well, I've always kind of dreamed of playing piano." So I'm sitting there thinking like, oh God, here it comes. So if you see a sale, come through from a Val in Iowa, you'll know. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:06] If your wife buys my course, in addition to having bought Nate's microgreens course who, if you're not familiar, the, he was on the first 20 episodes of this show, then she might be the official, like biggest fan boy of the podcast, even though I've never actually met her or anything. David Krohse: [00:05:21] Pretty much. Well, I mean, she, she loves shopping and she's put herself on shopping bans at various times. She read the book The Year Of Less, then she says, I'm not going to buy anything for a full year. And, uh, but, but when she, when she shops, she loves to, she loves to research and just feel like she made the best decision. And so when we were talking about pricing back on the episode with Phil Ebiner, I was just thinking about how she would... if Val will buy, she'll buy your highest end package, because she'll, she'll totally feel like she saved so much money by going with the highest end package. And I could just see the way that her mind would work. And she'd say, this is... I, I'm so smart because I bought this highest end package where I get the most stuff. And, uh, yeah, I could just totally see it through her eyes. Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:09] Well, if anybody that buys well, any of my packages, but especially my high-end package is very smart, David. Very, very smart. David Krohse: [00:06:17] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:18] So we, uh, we, you know, just speaking to my course, we just finished a pretty, pretty big milestone, uh, yesterday. And I've talked about it a few times, but the, the bootcamp that I did in 2020 with eight people came into my world and I taught them my 21 day curriculum live over the course of 21 Zoom meetings. And it was a lot of fun. It was there, there was multiple reasons I wanted to do that. One being that. I wanted to get some direct feedback on my newest curriculum. I revamped the curriculum a little bit. I wanted to test it on some people live, get that feedback. And I did, I'm about to record the new version of my course, and it's going to be very similar to what I taught in the bootcamp, but a few tweaks because I learned how people responded to certain things and in certain orders, the other motivation was that kind of have those recordings as a bonus for, for people that sign up for my course and we just finish very highly producing all of those videos. David Krohse: [00:07:15] Awesome. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:16] It took, it took a long time because it's a, it's a Zoom file. Plus my three camera files in my office, uh, audio files, uh, files with, with fancy notes coming down on the screen and it took my video editor a long time. It was, it was hard to piece it all together, but, the end product is very, very high quality, and I'm excited to have that asset now as part of my course going forward. David Krohse: [00:07:40] Awesome. But then you're still going to go back and record the most concise and most effective strategies. Jacques Hopkins: [00:07:48] Yeah, I, I considered, you know, that being my, the course. Right? But each lesson is in the bootcamp videos is an hour long because there's a lot of, hey, let's go around everybody, tell me how your practice went from last week. Like sometimes we'd spend 30 minutes before we even got into that day's lesson. So I don't know if that's going to be a great way to consume the content for everybody. Some people it will be, but, uh, for most people, I think 10 to 15 minute video per lesson. Efficient, concise. And then they could always reference the bootcamp videos if they wanted some more information. See what kind of questions people were asking and so on. David Krohse: [00:08:24] I think that's fantastic. I think that they'll, uh, if you haven't yet, um, really asking each of those people that was in the bootcamp, if they could kind of share their backstory, because I'm just thinking about these people that are following along, like, if I was watching that, I would ultimately, after 21 days of watching these people learn and grow, I would feel like they were my friends. So I would really. I would really want to start out by finding out who they are, what their story is, where they're from. So if you haven't recorded that yet, I think that could be a lot of fun. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:52] That's a great point. We actually did a like Day Zero meeting where I didn't teach anything. It was just like to get that information like, hey, what, why haven't you succeed on a piano yet? What's your history? Like, what are your goals? All that we did that call, but we didn't produce that video, but I have it. And I think that might actually be a good, a good thing to add to it, to what we have. David Krohse: [00:09:11] Sure. I think people would love watching that and watching them grow. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:14] Speaking of watching things grow. I wanted to give you an update on the... How do you like that transition? On the podcast growth in 2020? David Krohse: [00:09:21] Oh yeah. I've been very curious about that. So you had some, you had some appearances on some large podcasts and I'm, I'm interested. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:29] Yeah. This, um, this podcast started in 2017 because I thought it would be fun. And I thought it'd be a good way to connect with other course creators. And I didn't really have a, a great vision on, on how, and if I would even monetize it one day, but it's, it's, it's been fun through the years as it, as it evolved. And 2020 was certainly a great year for The Online Course Show. Going into the year, we'd get 500 to 1000 downloads per episode and we're consistently getting more like 2000 downloads per episode these days. So it's not like astronomical growth or anything, but it's slow and steady growth. And there was a couple of larger podcasts that I appeared on this year. Smart Passive Income. Or last year. Uh, Smart Passive Income with Pat Flynn and ChooseFI with um, with Jonathan Mendoza and Brad. And that definitely brought in a lot of people into my, into my world. And I think that is one of the best ways to grow a podcast is to appear on other podcasts. And so there was definitely spikes through the year, those couple of times when I appeared on those other podcasts. But other than that, it's just been slow and steady growth. And, and lately, just every time we release a new episode, it gets more downloads than the one before. So hopefully more and more people are listening. David Krohse: [00:10:44] Very cool. Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:45] Yeah. But since we started, I certainly have found ways to monetize this in a way that that helps the listener. And, and one of those ways is my program called Next Level Courses. It started, I'm sure you remember, it started as just like a higher ticket, more one-on-one program back in early 2019. So two years ago. It was a $5,800 program. And several people went through, represents success rate on those, but I mean, people had no choice, but to be successful when I was holding their hands that much. And, uh, that was fun, but it was also a lot of, you know, I, I try to have as few of just like set meetings, recurring meetings every week, as few as possible. And because I want to have as much freedom as possible. And so that's the main reason I stopped that more intensive version of it, but I relaunched it a few months ago. I think it was July of 2020 to be more of kind of a group coaching programs and prerecorded training. And that's been going really well. We have 75 members in Next Level Courses. You're Next Level Courses. David Krohse: [00:11:47] Yes I am. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:48] And so is Andrew Seguin. Andrew Seguin, uh, joined when I relaunched it back in July and he has been consuming all the content. And, uh, he implemented almost everything in the training. And then anytime he got stuck or had a question, he would jump on the Q&A with me and ask it. We'd have our five minutes together, you know, every week, every other week, whenever he wanted to jump on. And, um, he's only 18 years old. He's only 18 years old. He makes several thousand dollars a month from his fingerstyle guitar course. And every time I talked to him, I'm just, I'm inspired. It's amazing. I wish I was like that when I was his age. And I know, you know Andrew a little bit. I mean, his story is pretty inspiring. Don't you think? David Krohse: [00:12:32] It's pretty epic. Definitely. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:35] All right. Well, there's all the lead up. So without further ado, here's the full conversation between myself and Andrew. What's going on Andrew. Welcome to The Online Course Show. Andrew Seguin: [00:12:46] Welcome. Thanks for having me on today. Jacques Hopkins: [00:12:49] So let's just start with the story, man. How did you get into online courses? Andrew Seguin: [00:12:53] Okay. So online courses for me, it's been... It's been a long journey for me getting up to this point. It wasn't something that I just like hit on. I've been building the skills to do it for like a really long time, because my niche, I do fingerstyle guitar. I teach fingerstyle guitar online and obviously that's not something that you can just, you know, pick up. I have been playing guitar my whole life and it actually started when I was eight years old. That's when I started playing guitar and I was... actually when I first started, I really hated it. That's the truth. Right. But I kept going with it and then I ended up getting into YouTube. So I started making YouTube videos and I would grind really hard on that. So there's one point where I was making like two YouTube videos a day and I was really into the side of just working hard on that. And then I remember at 10 years old, one part is... Jacques Hopkins: [00:13:55] Whoa, whoa, whoa. You started your YouTube channel at eight years old? Andrew Seguin: [00:13:58] No, no. I started guitar at eight Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:00] Ok. Andrew Seguin: [00:14:01] And then my YouTube, I think I posted my first YouTube video when I was around 10 or 11 and they were terrible videos. Like, I I'll say that right off. I have 30 you cannot find them online. They're all privated, but that's, that's when it started. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:18] Got it. Andrew Seguin: [00:14:18] Yeah. And then when I was 10, one thing that I think is interesting, it's how I got into like entrepreneurship or the first like glimpse into entrepreneurship was I remember like sitting in my bed one time and then I was like on YouTube and I got this, one of those like ads from one of those like internet gurus, I think it was like Tai Lopez. You know who that is? I got that. I remember I was like 10 years old and I know that's the ad everyone talks about, but I saw it. And I was like really intrigued by it, you know, by all like the books and everything. And I know he did that on purpose, but I was really into it. So I saw that and I'm like, that's what I want to do. I want to figure out a way to actually be an entrepreneur and do it that way. So I started grinding with YouTube for a while. One of my biggest inspirations was Arnold Schwarzenegger and he would really, you know, just push me and it really, you know, helped me that way. And I kept doing YouTube and till I was about 15, I never ended up getting popular at it, like still, I think the most I got, I was like 900 subscribers, a couple of thousand views, but it was something that really helped me later on because it gave me, you know, the skills and the habits that would help me with online courses. So when I was 15, I opened up my first actual store online, I opened up... It wasn't a core store. It was like an e-commerce drop shipping store because I saw that as a way to make money online. And I was interested in that and I ended up making three different stores. Each one of them wasn't super successful. I sold all of them. They had really good conversion rates and stuff, but at the end of it, I realized that I just wasn't helping anyone. Really all I'm doing is, you know, getting an item from China, making a website and then selling it. And it wasn't really bringing any like transformation to anyone. So after that I sold my stores and I kind of had like an epiphany moment, one time where I saw, I heard about online courses. And then I thought, what if I could, you know, bring in all the video editing that I, all the video editing skills I got from my YouTube, I could bring in all my guitar knowledge. And I could bring in my like website design skills and put it all together. And then I launched my first course. I spent like five months going at it. And then I launched it when I was 17, about a year, almost two years ago. And that is how I started with online courses. I have to say when I first started, it was pretty terrible. Just looking back on my first web pages, my first videos. But, you know, I kept trying, kept trying, I ended up finding Jacques and he's helped me through it. So that's how I got the start. I know there was a lot going on and it's very confusing, but yeah, that's about it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:17:10] And how old are you now? Andrew Seguin: [00:17:11] I'm 18 for the current time. Jacques Hopkins: [00:17:15] Okay. So you're 18. Um, wow. What kind of, what kind of e-commerce stores were these? What, what kind of stuff were you selling? Andrew Seguin: [00:17:22] I was selling like little guitar, like little, um, gadgets. The first thing I sold was guitar capos. And I did the whole like free plus shipping thing and I had a store that was called Cool Capos. And then I would just sell capos online. And I had that. And then I had another one where I was just little guitar... I sold mini guitars for awhile. I actually got a lot of sales on that. It was, it was a lot of fun. And then I opened up one store, um, the last one I opened was like selling mugs, like coffee mugs. Yeah. And then that one I closed pretty quick, because I'm like, it was just, I don't know, it wasn't for me, but yeah. So I was selling like little guitar things and I did pretty good at it because I had all this video editing skill. And, um, another thing about me is I actually, um, work like a part-time for a video place too, which helped me with a lot of my video skills. So yeah, it was a lot of fun and those are the e-commerce stores that I did. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:21] And you said you sold them. Who did you sell them to? Andrew Seguin: [00:18:24] I just, um, I just sold them online too. There's like this one site where you can like sell your Shopify stores. I only sold them for like 500 bucks each. It wasn't like I sold them for like thousands, but yeah. I ended up selling them, which I thought it was cool. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:38] And the YouTube channel that you had started back when you were 10 years old, is that the same one that you have today or is that a separate channel? Andrew Seguin: [00:18:44] No, no. It's the same oneI have today, most of the stuff, like I said, it was privated, but... Yeah, it's the same one. I started way back way back then. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:53] Okay. And what, what kind of videos were you putting out there? You hadn't, you hadn't thought about an online course yet you were just putting out you playing songs on the guitar. Is that what you're doing? Andrew Seguin: [00:19:01] Yeah. Yeah. So the first videos I would make, well, it wasn't all just guitar because I was a, a 10 year old kid. I started out with making like different covers with guitar. Cool thing was, I used to like make guitars with like my dad and my grandpa used to make some cool stuff on there. And, um, I did that for a while then obviously as a 10 year old kid, I have some friends made some funny videos of my friends here and there. Some like cool skits, but then I kind of moved to for the most part was guitar covers fingerstyle guitar covers. So I'd either make my own arrangements on fingerstyle guitar, which I teach now, or I'd do covers of other people. And then I'd make these really cool music videos. So I'd have like a cool audio from it and then I'd take different angles and mash it up together. So yeah, a couple of different... Jacques Hopkins: [00:19:49] I love how all the experience, even though all of it, I mean, you're still incredibly young, but all the experience just built upon each other. And continues to build upon each other. It's not like you had zero experience in entrepreneurship and online business. And then all of a sudden, you, you created a course, like at 10 years old, you started a YouTube channel, started editing videos. You had e-commerce stores drop shipping and all that you, so you knew how to make videos. You knew how to be on camera. You knew how to make websites. And, um, so this, the success that you've found so far with courses, certainly isn't an accident, but at 10 years old, and really at any age, Andrew, like it's hard to be a producer of content. It's way easier to consume content. That's why so many people will just pick up their phone and like flick through it. They're just, they're consuming content, but especially at 10 years old, like what, what motivated you to want to make so much of the content? Andrew Seguin: [00:20:42] Um, like I said it was that, um, it's kind of funny. It's that one, it's that one video. One of the things that motivated me the most was like, I saw that one video of like, I'm sure everyone knows the video of like Tai Lopez in his garage. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:56] Yeah! It's the one with the Lamborghini, right? Andrew Seguin: [00:20:57] With the Lamborghini. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:58] And the books. Andrew Seguin: [00:21:00] And the books. And then I remember after that I ordered like a whole bunch of books. I still have them, the first books I got with me. And, um, it was that, and it was, I was, and I still am obsessed with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I would just... Jacques Hopkins: [00:21:12] Well, you look just like him. Andrew Seguin: [00:21:13] I know. I'm working on, um, my arms are just as big. I would like listen to his stuff all the time. And that was what really motivated me to really go forward with it because I saw how hard working he was, and I knew that I wanted to be like, just like it. And I also had expectations when I was like really young, because I remember looking at like how young they started. Like I would look at like, like how young did you know he started working out or how young did a lot of these people start with their stuff. And they started when they were like really young too. Not saying you can't start when you're older, but I noticed that if I would start young, I wouldn't be successful right away, but it would help me later on. Jacques Hopkins: [00:21:54] So, what was it about specifically about that Tai Lopez video? And for those that aren't familiar with it, it's, it came out years ago and it was, it was an ad. I think he ran everywhere and you know, he's always, he's always struck me as a little, a little slimy, right? He's just like, look at this, look at this car that I've been able to afford. Right? This Lamborghini. Was it the car itself? It's like, oh, I need to find a path to where I can afford cars like that? Andrew Seguin: [00:22:19] Um, it wasn't, it wasn't that because it's not all about the cars obviously and that, and I've seen, you know, that video. That's like, I watched a couple of things that dive into just that one ad. And it's like one of the most psychological trick videos that you can find out there. But most of the, most of it was, it was just like, you know, the books and consuming knowledge that way I'd say. Jacques Hopkins: [00:22:42] What do you mean by psychological tricks? Andrew Seguin: [00:22:44] Well, the video it's, um, he does a lot of, uh, camera tricks in it. Like he starts off with the Lamborghini and then shows the books, which then you psychologically are like, okay, if I get the books, I get the Lamborghini. And then he has like the average Joe effect, which is the shirt. There's a whole bunch in that video. It's crazy. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:02] Are, are there any influences, uh, entrepreneurial influences in your personal life, right? Family, friends. Is there anybody around you locally that that helped motivate you to want to go down this? Andrew Seguin: [00:23:17] Um, I don't really know anyone who's super like entrepreneurship in my family at all. They've always been super supporting and motivating of me. But I haven't been, you know, really the people around me personally, haven't been super entrepreneurship. I think the thing is, it's like that everyone says like your environment is your success, right? They're like the average of your five people as we hear a million times. I think that the reason that I was so entrepreneurship is because I'm surrounding myself with people online. Like, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, like all these gurus online who were entrepreneurs. And I was reading the books of people who were, and that's where the entrepreneurship mindset came from, I'd say more online. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:58] Got it. So, so what do, what, what were your friends thinking like 12, 13, 14 years old? What, what were they thinking about? The things you were doing? Andrew Seguin: [00:24:07] It was always really private about all of it. I never really talked to my friends because they didn't really understand, like, I'd mentioned it a few times and I'd just be like, okay, well, whatever, you know, they just don't didn't understand. So I wouldn't really tell them, like, I remember starting like a YouTube with my friends and stuff and just the goals were always different. You know, I always wanted something that was bigger. Like I'm like, okay, let's do this. Let's get a million subscribers, stuff like that. And they're like, oh no, let's just do this for fun. Like I remember I was always just wanted a lot. I'd say. And I never really told my friends because when I did, they never understood. And there was all that right now. It's different now. I got like, good friends. Jacques Hopkins: [00:24:44] Yeah. Well what about now? I mean, you're 18 years old and you found some success with your, um, with your guitar, fingerstyle guitar online course. What do your friends and family think today? Like, are they just like blown away by what you're doing? Andrew Seguin: [00:24:56] Yeah. Well, um, at first, obviously when I, when I started it, a lot of people like, especially like my family, they don't understand because they're like, oh, it's a scam. It's, it's not going to work. But now that they see the results and they see how it's working, I mean, my friends and family, they're like, they're really motivated. And they're like, good job. And they, um, they really like it. My friends too. Um, I have a lot of good friends now who are kind of entrepreneurship, so they helped me, too, that way. So it's a lot different now than it's going to having that environment. Jacques Hopkins: [00:25:26] All right. So let's, let's get back into the story, um, and focus in on the, uh, the online course chapter of all of it. You said you took about five months to launch that first version and you said it wasn't very good. Right? So what, or when did you first really find success with your online course? Andrew Seguin: [00:25:43] Um, well, I'll, I'll tell the story of my, when I launched my course, I didn't get my first sale until like a month after. I remember. It was a long time and I still remember the first sale. I got home from like, like a swim thing. And then I remember getting the first sale. It was like 300 bucks. And I was like, I thought I was like a millionaire when I got that first sale. But, um... Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:05] Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. So you're like what? Like a junior in high school, right? Or maybe senior? Andrew Seguin: [00:26:11] Yeah, no, I w I was in, um, I think it was the RADA. It was a, a junior. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:18] Okay. So you're a junior junior in high school, and I know you're in Canada and I don't know if the school system is the same, like grade wise here, but that's, you know, if you're 17 years old, that's, that's where you'd be in the United States, roughly, but you're just going, you're doing some extracurricular activity and you come home and find that after a month of, I would imagine anguish, like I spent five months on this thing and now it's been a month and nobody's bought it, you're probably kind of upset about it. Andrew Seguin: [00:26:41] Oh yeah. Well, I want, I want to quit because I sunk like $400 into ads, which was like my entire account at that time. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to quit this isn't for me. And yeah, it was like, when, when that hit it's like, it still is an amazing feeling when you get a sale now, every single time. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:59] What was your, what was your strategy back then? Like, did you have an email list? Did you do a specific launch strategy or were you just kind of putting things out there and see what would stick? Andrew Seguin: [00:27:07] Well, my strategy was, I just had like the same, I kind of had the same ebook. It was like, it wasn't as good of an offer or it wasn't as good as like an ebook and stuff. And I just had my ad that got the emails. It didn't go into like an automated email sequence launch. I just got all the emails. And then it would just send out like videos or send out emails here and there on MailChimp. And then I would do like a launch there. I I'm, and then I had Teachable to which me and you, but can share a hatred for Teachable, but I had that. And then I would just shoot them to Teachable where I have my sales page. And it was like, looking back. I have no idea even how I got a sale on that page. Because it was absolutely terrible. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:52] So it was most of the traffic coming from YouTube, or were you paying? Andrew Seguin: [00:27:55] My email list. I was paying for emails. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:57] You were paying, you were using Facebook ads. Andrew Seguin: [00:28:00] Yeah. I was using Facebook ads. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:01] To build up your email list and then you would market the course via email. Andrew Seguin: [00:28:04] Yeah. Because like, because when I was doing e-commerce I, um, or e-comm, I had Facebook ad experience from that. So that's what I started, I knew how to do Facebook ads. So I was doing that once I closed down my stores. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:17] So the learning how to create a YouTube channel, edit videos, do Facebook ads, like, did you go through online courses to learn this stuff or did you just kind of get in the platforms and just learn it on your own? Andrew Seguin: [00:28:29] No, I, um, well the editing, I would watch like videos on YouTube, free videos on YouTube, the course I, I bought an actual e-comm course and that's how I learned Facebook ads. And then all my guitar, I do guitar lessons for that. So that's how I learned all that. And I still am. So yeah, that's, there's been a lot that has gone into it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:50] Okay. So you get the first sale after you went swimming with your friends and you're on top of the world. You felt like a millionaire. What happens next in the story? Andrew Seguin: [00:29:00] Oh, it's another low. I don't get any sales for a little while. And then I think that was at the point where I started doing the sequence. So I think this is at the point where I found the launch thing online. And then I put that into my funnel. I did it in MailChimp, which really wasn't working out. And... Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:21] What do you mean by launch thing? Like, explained that for us. Andrew Seguin: [00:29:23] Oh yeah. Sorry. It's the video launch thing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:26] So like Product Launch Formula? Andrew Seguin: [00:29:28] Yeah. And I was doing the Product Launch Formula, but doing it with, um, no videos. So I was just doing text and it didn't really work that well. I was probably getting, I'm pretty sure at that point, I wasn't, I was like breaking even with my sales still. So I wasn't making a lot of money at that point. And then, um, keep going forward. I kept learning more. I kept looking at books, redoing my sales page. I've redone my sales pages, like probably 10 times. But I kept redoing it and then it just, you know, kept getting better. My ad cost was lower. And then I think that was at the point where I found you. I found the guy who made a million dollars selling piano courses online. I still don't remember how I found you, but I remember finding you. And then I remember going into your, um, email sequence and then that's how I learned how to do it the proper way. Jacques Hopkins: [00:30:24] So you funnel hacked me. Andrew Seguin: [00:30:25] I funnel hacked you, Jacques. It comes out. And at that point is when I started, uh, you know, make more money with my stuff. I still, um, was only probably making a couple thousand dollars in revenue, not even much profit at that point. And then it was like that for a while. I opened up a membership, which I was selling to. I. It was really cheap for all the people saying who they can't afford the main course, which is like $207 or $297 to $497. And I kept that growing and it was slowly growing until I actually joined Next Level Courses. Right. And when I joined Next Level Courses and got all the guidance, I mean, that's when my revenue shot up and I think it pretty much doubled the first month and then it doubled again. And it's been kind of like that for the last few months when I'm redoing all my videos and stuff. And then like we were talking about, I hit that one month where it has the potential of if everyone follows through on their payment plans, like $5,000. So now it's going really good. And I'm so excited to see really what the future holds with all this. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:33] So you're up to, I mean, $5,000 is, is basically your best month, but you're, you're consistently making like four figures a month. Andrew Seguin: [00:31:40] Oh yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:41] With online courses as an 18 year old. Andrew Seguin: [00:31:43] Oh yeah. It's consistent. Yeah. I'm doing, doing a lot. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:46] Now, one thing I've been trying to get you to do is get more of your traffic from organic sources versus just paid. At this point is it fair to say that still, like all of your traffic is, is like Facebook ads? Andrew Seguin: [00:31:57] Yeah, pretty much all my traffic is coming from Facebook ads right now. Jacques Hopkins: [00:32:01] That's still a very impressive that you're able to be so profitable, um, even though all of your traffic is, is paid. And I know you're working on still growing the YouTube channel. What is your, I mean, not, not, not many people find success with Facebook ads. Like what is your Facebook ad strategy? Andrew Seguin: [00:32:17] All right. So, um, well that's a great question. My Facebook ad strategy I learned from e-comm and it's very simple. It's very simple. So what I did is I collect, go for a conversion pipe and then you go for lead. But the strategy is, um, you start out with all your different creatives, which is, you know, your ads, your videos, your pictures. And then you get a whole bunch of different copies for your ads, and then you make an ad and then you make like 10 different ads and you make like 10 different ad sets that are at $5 a day with everything being a little different, like a little different interest, a little different, you know, headline and everything's a little different and you run that for $5 a day or $10 a day, if you want to get it quicker. And then the next day you look back and you can see what is, you know, going good. So I kill all of my bad ad sets. I keep my good ones going, duplicate them. And then when you duplicate it, you can always up the budget and the main thing with ads... and I think Dean Grasiozi has a great quote on this is you need to test like crazy on them if you do your own ads. I think the quote that Dean Grasiozi says, he tests like new ads every single day. Like no matter what, he's testing a new ad and he's one of the most successful knowledge people out there. And my strategy is you keep duplicating, you keep trying new things and you scale by duplicating and adding the budget. Now, one thing I'd say to new people about that is, I don't know if I'd, um, do ads myself, if I was completely new to them, like, I think a lot of people who are completely new to courses where they've never done ads, I think sometimes it might be worth it just doing an agency out of it because ads do take a long time to learn. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:01] Yeah. When you, and especially when you could be, you know, making courses, putting other, other content out there, um, but you had the advantage of, of having learned it already from your previous businesses and I like what you're saying about, I mean, basically what I'm hearing from you is sort of, as far as your strategy is we create a lot of, we create a lot of different types of ads and have a very low budget for each one, just so we can see which ones are starting to get traction, which ones are converting better than others. And then we can figure out what's working in some of them what's not working and really, you know, kind of 80/20 it, and, um, and scale up the ones that are working. I think that's probably one of the biggest areas that people fail with ads is they go in there like create one ad. Right. Andrew Seguin: [00:34:42] Exactly. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:43] And spend 50 bucks a day. One ad. It's like, that's not how ads work, right. Andrew Seguin: [00:34:47] No. Yeah, exactly. Because when you just do that, it's like, what if there's something wrong with that one ad you're going to think it's it's um, failing, right. That's why you need to see what interests are perfect for it. You can test ages, you can test literally everything. A funny story is when I started my business, when I started Master Fingerstyle Guitar, if it wasn't for ad testing, if it wasn't for talking to my customers, I would have no idea who my customer is because when I started, I started as targeting young people my age, who want to play guitar at parties and impress girls. That's how I started my, because I thought that's who my person is going to be. My target market. But it turned out once I did my ads, I found out that my audience was 60 year old guys who are retired, who want to relax at home. You know what I mean? So you'll learn a lot from that testing too. Jacques Hopkins: [00:35:38] Yeah, absolutely. When I started, I was in my mid twenties when I started, I just assumed it would be people like me. Right. Mid twenties, just like hobby after work type thing. And like you had discovered, that was quite not true. It's my audience is also a lot older, but yours is even more pronounced because you're, you were even younger than I was. And you just assumed it would be people, people your age, but I'm not surprised that that's not the case. I mean, I doubt, that 17 year olds, uh, want to spend $300 or $500 on any sort of course. I mean, you, look, you learn a lot of what you know, from, from YouTube yourself. Whereas the, the older generation has more money and, and is maybe more willing to spend, um, spend money on a, on a course like that. So, but it's great that you did what you needed to do to figure that out. And so at this point, how many, how many students would you say you have roughly? Andrew Seguin: [00:36:29] Um, I'd say I have a couple hundred students. My membership's over a hundred people right now. It's about, um, as a, when we're recording this, it's at about 130 people and my course I've had a couple hundred enrollments in it over, you know, how I've started it, but it's, you know, exponentially growing. So each month I get more people who are coming into it, but yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:52] Well it's, as you know, I like to highlight, not just like your story, but, you know, part of this is helping others. You even mentioned that earlier. I mean, is there a story from somebody inside your course, somebody that's taken your course that's, that's had pretty good results you could share with us? Andrew Seguin: [00:37:05] Yeah. Well, there was one person, one story that I really like is someone who took the course and then was, you know, playing it to like their mother, was playing their fingerstyle guitar to their mother. And then they're like, well, you can do that? And that's one of my favorite stories. And then a lot of people, it's just, they're just doing it for fun. They're just doing it to relax. Jacques Hopkins: [00:37:26] What is fingerstyle guitar, fingerstyle guitar? Andrew Seguin: [00:37:30] Um, that's a great question. It's any type of guitar where you're playing it with just your fingers. So you're not picking on the guitar, you are just using your fingers. It can count as a classical guitar. It can count as... I could teach how to do arrangements of like popular songs on guitar. And it's anything like that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:37:48] So it's not just strumming chords. It's actually like picking the individual strings with your fingers. Andrew Seguin: [00:37:54] Yeah. It's the complete opposite of strumming chords. I don't teach that. It's only finger-picking. It's um, I could, I mean, I could pull my guitar and play to that listening right now. It's it's, you're picking on the guitar. You're not using, um, strumming. You're not using a pick. And you're just using your fingers. Jacques Hopkins: [00:38:11] Now, is that, is that just the style that you have always enjoyed and played, or did you do some sort of market research and figure out that there was a need for this? Andrew Seguin: [00:38:18] Well, um, no, that was the one that I was the best at. I always learned that one. That's the one that I've always been, um, playing the most. I started out on electric picking guitar and then after I quit guitar, which is in my, you know, the whole hero story. After that I picked up classical guitar, which is fingerstyle guitar. And I kept learning that. And then I got really good at that. And I started to learn this other type, which is like playing arrangements on acoustic guitar, which is fingerstyle guitar, it's the same thing. And that was what I got really good at. And not a lot of people are, can get like really good and teach that. There's some other really good fingerstyle teachers on the internet, but I noticed that I could, you know, try to fill that and not a lot of people could do that through the video, through the website. So I thought that would be a great one to try to hit. Jacques Hopkins: [00:39:07] Very cool. So I've, I've mentioned on the podcast several times that if I had to do things over again, I probably would not have attended college. It's a little unfair because I have the, the, I mean I'm 35 years old now and I have the knowledge and experience, and I know what I've been able to do, but I'm not necessarily, I don't necessarily advise like, nobody to go to college. There's a time and a place, but, um, you're in a position where just a year ago you were in high school, I'm assuming. And so what's, what's your like kind of life and life path looking like these days. Are you, are you in college? Are you taking classes or are you just like full steam ahead with your business? Andrew Seguin: [00:39:43] Yeah. Well, my goal is to create the biggest fingerstyle guitar school on the internet. That's my goal. And. I also like, I'm going to be releasing a fingerstyle album because I do producing in a few months. So my goal is to do that and do music too, and have my own niche. I'm not going to be singing, but I'm going to be doing fingerstyle guitar and pushing that. And it can help me with my course too. Currently I am enrolled in Music in post-secondary. It was more of something like, you know, they're like, like my parents wanted me to go to school and I figured I got, they gave me a little scholarship to go this first year. So I'm here at the moment in a post-secondary school. I don't know where I'm going to go because I really want to take this to the next level. And yeah, that's where I'm at. I really, really want to take this. Really want to create a very good program. Jacques Hopkins: [00:40:34] What's your, what's your why? Like you said, you want the, your, your biggest goal is to have the biggest fingerstyle guitar resource or course on the planet. Uh, why though? Andrew Seguin: [00:40:45] I'd love to just be able to, you know, do what I want and be able to have freedom. That's the main thing with, um, pretty much everyone's why. And, um, I'd really like to be able to do music, like I said. Really be able, if I can take this and take it to the next level, then I can put out, you know, the music that want to make the albums I want to make and do that and have the freedom to not have to, you know, be stuck somewhere or something like that. And obviously there's a whole thing, like I want to help as many people in fingerstyle guitar as possible, because it is really nice when you see someone and you've changed their life with your online course. And it's awesome to see that. And if I can do that to as many people as I can, it's, it's awesome. Jacques Hopkins: [00:41:28] It's a great feeling, right? I mean, I wonder when I get one of my students, like either sending me, um, an email with like a video. I love just seeing videos of my students playing and we can, you know, we can relate on that since we're both teaching a musical instrument. So whether they email me a video or they post it to the Facebook group, I always just, it's just such an emotional experience for me to see somebody who 21 days ago, a couple months ago, or even a year ago, wasn't playing anything. And now they're playing songs on the piano because they took my online course. Do you, do you get that as well? When you see things like that, like, does it hit you like at an emotional level? Andrew Seguin: [00:42:03] It does because it's like it in, you've helped them do that. Especially when, you know, like you see that you get like the, uh, you know, the haters online too and stuff. And then when you see that it's like, yeah, it's going to be okay. So yeah, that's what I really love. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:20] Do you get a lot of haters? Andrew Seguin: [00:42:21] I don't get, like, I don't, the only haters I get are like every once in awhile, someone will comment on like the Facebook ad and be like, "Oh, it's a scam," or something like that. Like I get stuff. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:31] How do you handle that? Andrew Seguin: [00:42:32] I, or the are people say like, "Oh, they never sent me my ebook," or whatever. I'll just like hide the comment and then I'll message them privately. Be like, "Um, why is it a scam?" And I'll send them the ebook there. And then people just hate... GImme insults on my Facebook ads, call me a little kid and stuff like that, which is true. But they shouldn't tell me that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:53] Do you remove those as well? Andrew Seguin: [00:42:54] Um, I mean, why not? I'll remove them. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:58] I would, um, I would argue that you might want to leave them. I, I there's very, very rarely, unless it's just some like blatant, just like abuse or harassment. I'll almost always leave comments like that because it, it gives... it it's public and it gives you the opportunity to like take the higher ground and show how you respond. Not only to the positive comments, to the negative comments as well. And I think that when people are looking at my Facebook ads or my YouTube channel or something, and they see my replies to all, all different tones, I think people appreciate that. Andrew Seguin: [00:43:31] Yeah, definitely. That that would be a good idea. And I I've even, that reminds me of like, when I heard something like how Nike keeps up their negative reviews and like boosted their conversion rates. I don't know how true that is. I heard that off some podcast. But I think the negative reviews thing could help. And I'll um, I'll do that. I see you do that on, um, cause I've seen that on your Trustpilot too, when I've looked at it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:50] Yeah. Andrew Seguin: [00:43:50] We keep everything on there and you apply always super, super nice to them and say like, um, I think it's your fault. So not that, but I think it's like, you know what I mean? Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:01] Yeah. Yeah. Just, I mean, that's, that's my that's my perspective is, I think that you're, you're doing a disservice to your customers and potential customers if you just eliminate or remove all the negative stuff. I think people, if you're doing things right, you're always going to have haters. You're going to always gonna have people commenting in a negative light, and it just makes you come across as even more real if you leave them up and just reply. I mean, some, somebody, you know, one of my favorite quotes is like, "People are not against you, they're for themselves." And they might just be having a bad day. And then they're scrolling through Facebook. It's like, oh, look at 18 year old kids who teach in guitar. Like there's no way this is real. Let me, I'm having a bad day. So let me, let me make his day bad too, you know? Andrew Seguin: [00:44:39] Yeah, no, I agree. Like the whole thing about people who hate online, they're not hating you. They never hate you. It's always themself. That's the truth. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:47] Yeah. Andrew Seguin: [00:44:48] Something going on with them. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:49] A lot of times they wouldn't say that same stuff to your face. Like if they were in, in person. Andrew Seguin: [00:44:53] No, never, never. You need haters because it shows you're having success all the time. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:58] Yeah. Um, do you ever get imposter syndrome? Like who am I to be out here teaching 60 year old men? How to play guit... or not just men, I guess, 60 year old people, um, how to play guitar when I'm only 18? Andrew Seguin: [00:45:11] It feels sometimes you get like, "Is this really true?" Especially when you're young. And you really need to just fix that. Like anyone who's 18 or anyone who's young and you have like the limiting belief, like why can I do this? I'm only 18. And if you're young, you'll have the same thing, but the truth is you can do it, if you, you just have to fix your mindset. So eventually, like, sometimes it'll be like, you'll have those limiting beliefs that you can't do it because you're young or that it's not because you're young, but if you put in the work and if you show yourself that you can do it, if you have the proof and everything, then that's where it's possible and where it's okay. Jacques Hopkins: [00:45:49] What would you say to, what would you say to a 40 year old person listening to this? Who's got the imposter syndrome, like from your perspective, what, what advice would you give to that person? Andrew Seguin: [00:45:57] Oh, it's all about the mindset. That's all it is. It's literally all about the mindset. And that's one thing that I wish I would have had younger doing courses or when I first started doing courses, the mindset that, you know, like seeing yourself succeeding and knowing that you can succeed and knowing that what you're offering is worth value. And that's what I'd say to someone who's 40. That you got to change your mindset. You have to know that what you're doing is, is right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:21] Just believe in yourself. Andrew Seguin: [00:46:23] That's and it's the same thing you hear a million times over and over, but it's true. And you need to actually not just say it needs to believe it in your mind. Believe that you actually can do something. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:34] All right. So at this point, at this point with where you are with everything, like what is, what does a typical workday look like for you? What, what are the things that you're doing? Andrew Seguin: [00:46:41] So my workday always starts... I need to be more consistent with my wake up time. I'll say that. I, before the pandemic, I was waking up at sometimes like 5:00 in the morning for a couple of weeks and it actually felt good. After the pandemic or once it started, I mean, like going to bed at like 5:00 in the morning. So I'll usually wake up when I wake up. I like to on, a good day, I like to meditate. I like to journal if I'm feeling it. And then I will, um, you know, get on my day. I will do all my computer work in the morning. I'll send an email if that is, um, what I'm doing that day. I'll work on my ads, look at them and make sure they're doing good. And I'll always have my day scheduled up before. I like to say what I want to do the day before. And let's say I have videos. I do that. And I like to also work out like five days a week to keep that going, because I feel like that really helps. And you know, if you have a healthy body, it always helps. And at night is when I also do a lot of my work. I'll either be practicing guitar, super hardcore, like for a couple hours, or I'll be working on my computer super hardcore. I think my most productive hours are at night because that's when it's just me. There's no one around me. I know some people like it in the morning, but I like it at night. So that's what I would do at night. I'd be working, figuring out new strategies, watching videos and all that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:48:04] Are you, um, are you pretty motivated? Um, good with self-discipline or do you find you you'll get sucked in to just like a Netflix binge and be like, ah, what am I doing? I should be working on my guitar stuff? Andrew Seguin: [00:48:14] Netflix. I, I mean, yeah, sometimes. Like I'm not perfect. Sometimes I'll get sucked into a Twitter conversation for 20 minutes, just seeing people argue or I'll go on social media too much. Right? And I do get sucked in sometimes. I have blockers that I put on a lot of days where I just like, if I go on social media, I'll just like kick me out and like, say, "Get back to work," and stuff like that. But most of the time, or sometimes I get sucked in and most of the time I'm very productive though. And I won't be on there that much. I watch Netflix sometimes. I usually watch only watch it when I'm like practicing guitar, which I know it keeps me going longer so I can practice look over like that. How much do you, do you get sucked into it sometimes, Jacques? Jacques Hopkins: [00:48:56] I mean, I'm just like comparing my current situation, your current situation. And it's so different because I've got kids, I've got a wife, you know, of. Um, my business is a different place than yours. I've got a team as well, but I don't have as many hours in the day as you. Right. And so I'm just curious if you're actually, can you actually put in like 16, 18 hour work days or are you a, like, do you have a lot of typical 18 year old in you? I mean, I remember what I was like at 18. I wasn't doing, I wasn't worried about when I was waking up. I mean, I would, I was a freshman in college and I would, I would sleep through my alarm and miss classes. Like I was bad at just skipping classes in college. Like I was, I did not have a good head on my shoulders at 18, like you... like you seem to. Andrew Seguin: [00:49:41] Yeah, well, no, I've, I've definitely been keeping it up now. I'm gonna, I'm trying to cut my alarm back because I've noticed too, when I wake up at the same time every day, if you're younger, you, um, I think that's something you should definitely try to do then you're more productive at it. Right? But I mean, it's, everyone has their own thing. I definitely have some typical 18, like every 18 year old has, in me, but I also think I have some 30 year old in me, too, where I'm willing to put in the work because I have put in eight, 10 hour days in the past. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:12] Thirties probably sound so old to you. Andrew Seguin: [00:50:15] Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:16] I wish I was 30 again. Andrew Seguin: [00:50:17] Talking to an old guy. No, I'm joking. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:20] So what are you, so let's, let's talk about your, like the current state of your online course business. Like what are you, what are you struggling with? Andrew Seguin: [00:50:25] Um, right now, I I'd say I am... I'm just trying to boost my conversion rates more because I'm getting like two times return on investment. It's going pretty good. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:36] Meaning you spend a dollar, usually make $2 back. Andrew Seguin: [00:50:39] Yeah. Right now I'm working on my, the ads have been a really, um, they've been going up and down recently, so I've been trying to keep my costs at the same as it has been for, you know, the past like year, because of everything that goes on, eventually your ads can go up, you know, like double the cost per lead. And then that'll make it so your conversion rate, even though it's the same, you won't be making money. So I'm working really hard on toning my ads down and making them still at the same cost because it's been going... With everything going on, it's been going a little crazy, but it's coming back now. Jacques Hopkins: [00:51:11] Where do you see this going? Right? Let's let's pretend that we wake up as one year later. Ideally, where would your business be in one year from now? Andrew Seguin: [00:51:20] One year from now, I want to be having multiple courses. I want to be having a team. I want to be making... my goal is to eventually in the next few years, I want to make a million dollars from this. Um, so a year from now, I want to be making consistently, um, let's say like consistent $20,000 profit a month. At least. I want to be making, um, like have that whole team. I want an assistant. That would be fun. I want to, uh, have different courses, have my team and be really on track to have like the biggest fingerstyle thing on the internet. And I repeated a few things there, but that's what I'm going for. Jacques Hopkins: [00:51:57] Well, I mean, you didn't hesitate at all. It sounds like I asked you when you're from now, you're like, okay. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But have you done the exercises to think about the steps to get you there? Andrew Seguin: [00:52:07] Um, uh, yeah, I mean, I have, like, when I have my goals on my whiteboard here, I have like my yearly goal. And then I have like monthly goals and everything like that. And I think that think of the daily goals and everything. So I think of the steps like that. And sometimes it is, um, it is a lot to get there. Like if you want to make like a million dollars from an online course, that's going to be like, I thought of the number before, but I was like a thousand sales on a certain price or whatever. And then you got like ad spend. So it's actually double that and then taxes, which is more so it's a lot that goes into it. And I think having daily goals, having things before bed, weekly goals, yearly goals is everything that helps. Jacques Hopkins: [00:52:47] So you mentioned the team, I guess you don't have any team now when you said assistant, like that would be cool. Are you, are you, are you, are you actively looking for an assistant? Andrew Seguin: [00:52:55] Um, not at the moment, but it's something in the future that I look for, because right now, when I say like, "Oh, message the team and me at Andrew@" or whatever. And then I'm the team. So people always messaged like my email for support. They're like, "Hey team." And I'm like, okay. They like the name. Jacques Hopkins: [00:53:14] Even when I reached out to you about scheduling this right here, you're like, hold on, let me check my, with my assistant to see if I'm available. I knew you were joking, but I think that's part of the, the mindset thing is you're you, you know, want to come across as, this is a very legitimate, real thing and it's something that's can definitely help you learn how to play fingerstyle guitar. Andrew Seguin: [00:53:31] Yeah, that's what I heard it too. Like if you, um, whenever you're talking to someone and they ask if you're available, if, um, it's like a business thing or something y'all you always got to say, "Let me talk to my assistant." Jacques Hopkins: [00:53:43] So what, uh, what tools are you using? Are you, um, are you a ClickFunnels, ActiveCampaign guy? Andrew Seguin: [00:53:48] I am a ClickFunnels, ActiveCampaign guy at the moment. And, um, I was listening to your other podcasts about, um, how you're switching to like LearnPress and BuddyBoss. And that sounds really cool. I'd love to have an app in the future. Um, but right now I'm on ClickFunnels and ActiveCampaign and yeah, that's what I'm using. Jacques Hopkins: [00:54:08] Okay. What's your thoughts on ClickFunnels? Do you think you'll be on it for awhile? Andrew Seguin: [00:54:11] Um, the thing w
98 minutes | a month ago
165: How (and Why) to Become a 7-Figure Course Creator (Featuring Austin Netzley)
Today we are sitting down to chat with Austin Netzley, author of From 6 to 7 Figures! Austin shares with us about his journey into entrepreneurship, practical steps for growing your business exponentially, and how his book and coaching programs can help online course creators like you. Enjoy! “ We can only rely on hustle and muscle so much.” – Austin Netzley In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:34) A beard trim and a tidy office (2:57) Did David do his homework? (8:57) I share a student success story (10:26) Theresa and Billy Joel (13:42) Did I earn 7-figures in 2020? (14:49) How I linked up with today’s guest (16:34) Let’s meet Austin (17:00) Start with “the why” (20:27) Financial Perspective: Revenue vs. Profit (24:59) Austin’s story (28:45) Entrepreneurship journey (29:45) So, what is Austin’s book about? (32:28) Systems and teams (35:50) Who does Austin help? (40:10) The 72 Hour Rule (43:00) The power of the daily huddle (47:28) I asks the Office Space question: “What would you say you do here?” (51:00) Austin’s hiring method (53:22) Why write a book? (55:25) Should I write my own book? (56:47) The importance of assets (59:00) Discussing the book funnel (1:02:45) Austin shares two student success stories (1:06:11) Austin’s coaching programs (1:11:23) The coolest thing Austin’s been able to do (1:12:53) Where to find Austin and a giveaway (1:15:23) Discussing the interview and David’s thoughts (1:19:12) Michael Scott and the Peter Principle (1:21:25) The Howard Shultz story (1:23:23) XDS system (1:25:08) David’s take on Austin’s hiring method and a football tangent (1:30:43) Revisiting the topic of whether I will ever write a book (1:35:50) Wrapping up and teasing changes coming to Next Level Courses in 2021 That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Guest Links: From 6 to 7 Figures 2X Business Coaching Email Austin Resources and Recommendations: The 4-Hour Workweek Profit First EntreLeadership Episode 79 Episode 98 Episode 163 Episode 160 Leave a review on Apple Podcast Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days Email Me David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:00] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it, but not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way. And there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is The Online Course Show. And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins. And right over there is our cohost. What is going on, Dr. K.? David Krohse: [00:00:40] Oh, I'm up here. I'm excited. I'm all excited to record a video in a couple of days. And so I'm going to head to the barber shop today and get a beard trim. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's getting pretty long and scruffy here. So I was curious, Jacques, when are we gonna see you sporting a beard? Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:55] Sporting a beard? I man, I can't grow a beard. David Krohse: [00:00:59] Are you serious? Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:00] Yeah, I mean, I I've got some stubble. I can grow out a little stubble, but what you've got going on right now, which the listeners can't actually see. Is very impressive. And I've always been jealous of people that can, can grow lush beards like that. David Krohse: [00:01:12] Nice. Well, yeah, maybe you should go for the mustache then. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:15] Can't do it. David Krohse: [00:01:16] But, uh, I think I've stuck with the beard for good. Um, I actually grew my first beard right before I met Val. And so about two or three months into dating her, I clean shaved and her reaction was like, "Ugh", I was just like, Uh, she kind of gave me a little complex here. I was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. I was like this hideous Willdabeast for the first 30 years of my life, but happy wife, happy life sticking with the beard. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:44] There you go. David Krohse: [00:01:44] Well, maybe someday. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:46] Yeah. And you know, speaking of, uh, kind of cleaning up things a little bit, I've recently just like did a full cleanup, organization, uh, cable management in my office and I'm feeling good, man. I'm feeling really good over here. It's like, it's like, I'm clean shaven, you know? And, uh, do you work better when things are just tidy and clean or do you just not care at all about that stuff? David Krohse: [00:02:08] No, I'd worked better that way. I'm not great at doing it. Just being totally honest. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:14] I had a roommate in college who... Every time he really needs to do his homework or study. He would always really just clean and tidy and make like everything had to be perfect before he could study or do his homework. And I thought he was so crazy because I was in college. I was a total slob in high school. Um, but I've, I've done a complete 180 and I'm like that now as well. And my office has never been just as tidy as it's been. And I'm ex, I'm so excited. Cause I feel like I'm just going to be able to focus better than I ever have been. David Krohse: [00:02:46] Awesome. Well, that looks fantastic. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:48] Well, it looks the same on camera to you because all my junk and stuff is hidden off camera, but now, now it's tidy. So, uh, so look, did you, and this is a question for the listeners as well. Did you do your homework? David Krohse: [00:03:02] I did. Yes. I listened to the book. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:05] Okay. So you went the audio route is it as quick, quick and easy book, right? David Krohse: [00:03:09] Yes, it is. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:10] Cool. So 6 to 7 Figures, we talked about it briefly, last week. I told you, everybody listening, that's your homework because we'd be having the author of that book on today. And that's exactly what we're going to be doing. We'll be playing a full conversation between myself and Austin Netzley, the author of From 6 to 7 Figures here in a little bit. You did your homework. That's awesome. I hope those of you listening did your homework as well. We'll talk, we'll talk in a little more detail about the book and Austin and the conversation, um, after the fact, but this is, you know, the book is very much focused on like operations, right? David Krohse: [00:03:45] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:03:46] Systems. Team. And as you've probably noticed, we've been talking a lot about operations lately. I mean, you just look two episodes ago, we had Natalie Gingrich on and, uh, that was completely focused on, on operations. But a lot of times this podcast goes in the direction of like what's happening with me and my business right now. And I've been very focused on operations right now, because I think dialing in your operations is one of those things that can help take you from 6 to 7 Figures. Now, the premise of the book, I think we touched on this last week a little bit is the things that you did to get you to six-figures are not necessarily the things. That you need to do to get you to seven-figures. What does that, what does that mean to you, David? Having read the book, what does that mean to you? David Krohse: [00:04:35] Well, I, I, mean, I just agree with the premise is that you can drive basically the first thing you do when you're an entrepreneur is you create your own job. And that means that this business is bringing enough money in that you reproduced your income if you were working for somebody else, but that's not a business. So then it's, how do you take it to a business where you can be, be the leader and, uh, just take it to that next level. Jacques Hopkins: [00:04:58] Yeah, but a lot of people, you know, when they're starting out to, to become a course creator, a lot of people listening to this podcast, probably aspire to be a six-figure course creator. Like that's the big goal for a lot of people. Why do you think that that's the goal and not, not seven-figures? In your opinion, like, what's the difference between the two? David Krohse: [00:05:16] Well, it just the first goal. I mean, the first goal is, is freedom. It's, it's being able to quit your job. I mean, you, you, as an example, Nate, as an example, this idea that, that the course sets you free, but then you wake up one day and a certain amount of people that create a course, especially, let's say people that are doing the two times a year or three times a year at launch cycle, they're like, I created my business, but, uh... When I was early in business, um, you know, I had my business where it was bringing in $200,000, but all the money was going out the door. And I remember I called my dad one day and I said, I said, "Dad," uh, you know, I just complained to him. And he said, "David, you're 28. You have a business it's succeeding. You own your business. You aren't allowed to complain." And I said, "I don't own my business. It owns me." And, uh, yes. So you can have a business that's thriving and still feel that you're... You got some handcuffs on. Jacques Hopkins: [00:06:09] Yeah. There's, there's no doubt about that. And that's exactly the type of thing that, that Austin helps people with in this book helps helps people with. So there's when you're, when you're starting out, when you're climbing up the ladder to get to six-figures, in my opinion, there's a lot of grinding. There's a lot of figuring it out. There's a lot of failure. And once you get there, things aren't necessarily dialed in. But you found some level of success and Austin's point is that if you just keep that grinding and keep, keep making, um, uh, going, going down paths that aren't super calculated where there's a lot of risk and you don't have a great team on board, then you're just going to keep struggling to, to a large extent. And we've got to have way more operational efficiencies. We've got to have way more systems, a great team on hand and so on. To really climb up and get to that seven-figure mark. Now, I don't know about you, but like I never really aspired to be a seven-figure course creator like that to me from the outside, seemed like it was going to be too much work, too much headache, too much responsibility. I got into this to have some freedom to replace my income as an engineer. But I didn't want to create this, this thing that I couldn't control and it consumed me. And I ended up having to work a hundred hours a week, but that's, that's not what we're talking about here. And if you look at the seven-figure course creators that we've had on this show, we've had, we've had plenty, the two most recent ones that come to mind. Abbey Ashley, we've talked about her many times. I like to look at the, the why's here. You know, she's certainly a seven-figure course creator, but she's not working crazy hours. And she's doing the things that she wants to do. She's, she's employing 15 people. And, you know, since I talked to her, she's probably hired a couple more at her at her pace. And most of those people she's hired since the pandemic started. Right. Unemployments are at all time highs and she's hiring people, Jason Dion is killing it and he employs several people and, um, he's helping people all over, get their IT certifications and change their lives. And he's been able to move his, his family to Puerto Rico. So my point is that. I never aspire to be a seven-figure course creator, but now seeing other people, seeing people like Austin talk about, it's like, it's more about the why, what this enables you to be able to do. And you'll be able to hear it in just a minute. That's actually the first question I asked Austin, it's like, okay, you've got this book, it's called From 6 to 7 Figures, but let's start with the why, why would somebody ever want to do that? And for me, that's why... and for me, like I can just reach more people. And the more times people come to me and like, Hey Jacques, I can actually play piano now. That's what keeps me going. And the more, the more I can scale this business up, the more I can impact people like that. I have a success story from one of my students from two days ago. I'd love to share with you. This person... Does that sound good? David Krohse: [00:09:02] I'd love to hear it. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:09:03] This person, her name is Theresa. She looks like she's probably in her twenties or early thirties. I've never met her. Haven't heard from her since she signed up for my piano course several months ago. And she posted in our Facebook group two days ago with her playing a song on the piano. And, um, here's, here's what she had to say. And then I'll, I'll, I'll play a little snippet from her playing because that's, that's the real testimonial for, for, for a music course is actually hearing them play. So here's what she had to say. "My new year's resolution for 2020 was to learn piano and to be able to enjoy making my own music until now my piano had been collecting dust. Since I was a little girl when I took traditional lessons. When the pandemic started, I purchased an online improv course Piano In 21 Days and invested countless hours in improv techniques, ear training and music theory. I'm still hesitant and learning. However, overall, so happy with the progress I've made since March. I never thought I would be able to look at a songs key and major chords and be able to fill in music on my own. I would highly recommend his course for any skill level, including beginners. Can't wait to see where music takes me in 2021." Let me play for you in the audience a little clip of what Theresa sounds like. It really blew me away. One second. All right. So here's Theresa playing a Billy Joel song. Let's see if you recognize it. What do you think, man? Pretty good. Huh? David Krohse: [00:11:10] That's impressive. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:12] Yeah. It's wild to me. I'm gonna, I'm going to keep this going out a little bit lower volume, but it's just wild to me that like I did not know who this person was. And then all of a sudden, you know, this, this video, this, her playing this post comes into my world. I mean, I get multiple people signing up for my course every day. And so I can't just like personally know everybody, but this pops up, she's been working clearly hard at it since I guess, March putting in a lot of time and effort. And, um, you know, she's obviously put in the work herself, but she's, you know, she gave very high praise to the course and, uh, not to say that she wouldn't be playing today. If she would have taken another course. But it's my course that she took. And the, the hard work that I put into my course is, um, is what allowed her to, to learn from me from the, from the methodology of learning piano that I have. And now she can play. I mean, I don't think I could play this song as well as she's playing it. It's, it's pretty impressive and really blew me away when I saw this. David Krohse: [00:12:11] Yeah, that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. And, uh, I got to say. So at some point you invited me into your Slack channel for Piano In 21 Days. And so I'll jump in there every couple of days and just see if anything's going on. And Emily has now started sharing, uh, every day or two she shares a testimonial from one of your students. And I just love that, uh, everybody that's on your team gets to gets to start the day with why. You know she's on that different time zone. So each time I pull it up, usually there's another, another testimonial. And they're inspiring as, as just somebody that's cheering you on and your business success. But I do have to say, like, you've really got to start doing a weekly or monthly emails that are getting those testimonials out to people that are, are in your audience and they're, they're on the fence. We got to get those out to the fence sitters. Jacques Hopkins: [00:13:04] You know, that's a system, that's a system that I, that I need to have dialed in that I don't yet, because testimonials are just the massive part of a successful online course business. And while I do have systems in place for collecting testimonials and doing certain things with them, I don't think that I'm doing near enough. I don't think near enough people I've seen that video of Theresa playing that Billy Joel song. And that's what we're talking about today is systems. And that's, that's one of many systems that, that I noted down that I need to have dialed in and set up better as I was reading a 6 to 7 Figures. So we've kind of, we've talked about the why, clearly. Am I a seven-figure course creator? Well, 20, 2020 is in the books and, uh, I just wanted to crunch some numbers really quick in terms of just course sales from my piano course alone. In 2020, uh, didn't quite hit the million dollar mark for 2020. We brought in $938,938,200 in course sales. David Krohse: [00:14:02] Congratulations. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:03] Thank you. Yeah. And, um, that's that's ama- if you would've told me that a couple years ago, that that I would be able to bring that in Piano In 21 Days would be able to bring that in. And just one year, I would've thought you were crazy. Um, we haven't crunched the final, like final, final numbers for 2020 yet in terms of like affiliate sales and, you know, Amazon affiliates and any other income streams other than just course sales. So it's possible. We hit, hit that seven-figure mark overall, but not sure yet, but that's, that's the number from just course sales. But that number is just, it's so much more than that, right? It's it's Theresa playing piano. It's so many other people hopefully actually playing their piano and having fun at this point. So all that being said, um, let's transition into this conversation with Austin Netzley. Um, I first heard about him from Abbey Ashley in episode 160 of this podcast. Um, she very much attributes a lot of her success as a company to, um, Austin's training. It's called 2X, 2X Growth is a coaching program, training program that they offer. And, and really, you know, this book is, is somewhat of a funnel into that, but there's a lot of great information in the book alone. Like you don't need just the coaching program, but the coaching program could be a, a good fit for, um, for some people out there and he'll talk about who might be a good fit for that program as well. And they, they guarantee results. It's, it's pretty amazing. But after Abbey mentioned it, um, I immediately like immediately read the book and then, uh, I posted something about it in our, in our community. I think I even tagged Abbey. And then within, within 12 hours, not only had Abbey connected me to Austin, but Austin had, you know, replied to that and was like thrilled to come on the podcast. And he's just such a, he's just comes across as so genuine, so polite, so generous. He's got an awesome, awesome offer for, uh, listeners, um, a way to get a copy of the book for free. You'll hear that at the end of the conversation. So that that's, that's the story. So this is the author of 6 to 7 Figures, Austin Netzley. So David let's let's play it and we'll come on to the back end and, and, um, and talk about it for everyone. Okay. You're supposed to say okay. David Krohse: [00:16:22] Okay. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:22] Say, okay Jacques, let's do it. I'm so excited about this. David Krohse: [00:16:25] Alright. Roll that... Roll that audio. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:27] All right. Without further ado, here's the full conversation between myself and Austin Netzley. Austin. Welcome to The Online Course Show. Austin Netzley: [00:16:37] I am excited to be here. Uh, you're a friend of Abbey Ashley's, who's a dear friend of ours here at 2X. So, uh, she said awesome things about you, Jacques, and love what you're up to. Love to hear a little bit more about your story with the piano course. Uh, so we're going to have some good things to talk about that day, but thanks for having me. Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:53] Cool, man. Yeah. Happy, happy to share that as well. Um, the, the way I'd like to start, if that's okay, is I'd like to start more about the why, you know, the, there was a lot of hows in your book and man, I've been, I've been talking about your book on the podcast. I read it a couple of times and I'm starting to go through the audio now as well, but let's start with why, like, what if we have a listener out there who's low six-figures, pretty comfortable making more than they were at their full-time job. Why would they even want to aspire to get to seven-figures? Austin Netzley: [00:17:21] Uh, it is a huge target that people have, and it's just a number. It's just a fake number. So when we break it down, most people actually don't even want to get there. People really actually want, and they that's what they say they want. They want to have a million dollar business just to say that. Right. And that's our ego speaking, but when we really break it down, most people actually don't want that. They want more freedom to spend time however they want. With their family. They want more consistencies, so they can sleep like a baby at night and not have all this stress that this caused in a business. And so many online courses are just up and down. You know, they do a launch in and they make some good sales and then it's right back to close to zero then the next week. So they want that consistency. They want that freedom and they want ultimately. Have a purpose for their life. These things far outweigh even having a seven-figure business, but people think that they want a seven-figure business. So that's what we help people do. And again, they realize along the way that there's other things that are even more enjoyable. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:18] Yeah, it seems like it's more about what it represents for you. And I'll tell you about the majority of the course creators of having this podcast would fall somewhere, probably in that six figure range. There's way more six figure course creator in seven-figure. But the ones that I've had on that. That shared that they've, they're bringing in more than a million dollars in a year. They're the ones that do have the most freedom. And that seemed to be the happiest, not because of the money necessarily, but just because of the impact they're having the freedom, they have, all the things you're talking about. And at the end of the day, I guess that's the types of things that you, you, you were talking about here with the seven-figures. Austin Netzley: [00:18:55] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, it's a scorecard, right? It's a scorecard of the, uh, level of the game that you're playing. It's a scorecard of the impact that you're making. And the impact is just so much more important than the dollars amounts. Right. You know, so you need a certain amount coming in to cover all your means, but it's really, once you cross that seven-figure mark... Very little changes, right? It changes in the journey from going from, let's say 200,000 up to a million. You change a ton in your mentality changes, but I think a big reason why people want to get to that seven-figures is to have some confidence and have some belief in and separate themselves from the pack is like you mentioned, there's just so many more six-figure creators. In fact, as we talked about in the book, only 4% of all entrepreneurs in the U.S. get to that magic million dollar mark. So it's not easy. But, uh, you know, as we're kind of talking about, it's not even really the goal, the goal is to figure out what you really want, what that dream life look it looks like and create your business to be a vehicle or a tool to help you get there, whatever that is. Cause some people are totally cool making 80K a year. And making a certain impact and just, you know, being at home with their kids every day and picking them up from school, you know, what's, the world gets back to number one, everybody has school. Um, so like whatever your vision is, that's perfect. Right? That's perfect. Let's design your business to create that. That's our goal 2X. Jacques Hopkins: [00:20:14] Yeah. Had that, had that number written down. Ready to talk about next man. Cause I remember in your book, you said 96% of businesses never reached that seven-figure mark. And so far, we've talked a lot about the why, but, let's talk next about what that means from a financial perspective, because I'm assuming you're talking about revenue, right? What are your thoughts overall by, by touting our revenue numbers versus profit versus any other number? Austin Netzley: [00:20:39] Yeah. I really struggle with the way that the online world myself included talk about revenue, because at the end of the day, you can make a lot of revenue, but if you're not keeping anything in the bank account, if you're fighting month a month to pay your bills, if you've got it up and down, if you're stressing out about money, like 99% of entrepreneurs are like, that's not success in my opinion. Right? So we do have to talk as a second conversation about cash and cash flow and something very important that most. starting entrepreneurs and even people that have been a business for five plus years, most don't really know their true profit margins. And most aren't definitely working on the right activities that are going to improve those profit margins. So there's a big, big difference between revenue and cash and cash flow. And we've got to make sure to understand the difference between all three and really optimize all three, for sure. So a couple of things related to that. So the difference between cash and cash flow is cash is like, what do you have in the bank right now? And what we want to have is three months of our average expenses, just in the bank that we don't touch. That's the new zero. If you do that, then you don't have to like go and scrap every single week. We've got so many clients that come and start working with us that they're fighting every single week or every, at least every single month to bring in new leads and sales, because like, they don't have a ton of reserves there. Like, they're just trying to get by. And they're just scraping by and they don't have a ton of profit. So we want to have cash to be in what we call the power position. Then you want to have the systems and structure and flow in place so that you've got continuous cash coming in, uh, where you're profitable. And, uh, obviously driving a revenue, which you can reinvest back into the business as well. But, uh, again, big difference between revenue and cashflow. Jacques Hopkins: [00:22:18] Three months of, uh, three months of expenses in the, in the bank, incredibly important, man. Um, about a year ago, pre pre-initial lockdowns, pre-pandemic. I didn't really have that money in the bank. I had very little just saved. I was just kind of spending what we made for the most part. And then, that the pandemic hit, locked down, started. And for the first couple of days, I was freaking out because I didn't know what was going to happen to my business. Thankfully, I'm one of the businesses that did well with the lockdowns, right? People, people have learning piano on their bucket list. A lot of people stay staying home. My business did really, really well and continues to do very well, but thank goodness, it didn't go the other way. And because it did so well, I now have three months and more of expenses in my bank account. And just the mindset of how you run your business. When you've got that margin versus nothing is completely different. Austin Netzley: [00:23:11] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's a big shift that you have to make. Uh, and again, as people start to get into the multiple six-figures, they have to make that at some point it's to like separate your personal financials from your business financials and just like take a step as we call it, taking a step into actually being a CEO. So there's several stages. Like you start out as, you know, potentially a, uh, what's that what's a contractor called? A freelancer. So you may start out as a freelancer kind of dabbling on the side a little bit. Maybe you come up with some, or maybe you're making just a little bit of money, then you go to a solopreneur and you like, you really start to, hey, I'm going to go for this. I have a brand, I started social media, whatever. Then we go to an entrepreneur, hustling entrepreneur. We have a couple, maybe part-time employees and contractors. And then we want to make the leap all the way up to being a CEO and then a business owner. And the CEO and the business owner treat their business completely different than a solopreneur or a starting hustling entrepreneur. Right. We're thinking more stuff to do. Whereas the CEO is making decisions based on the numbers, based on the financials, investing into the business, building it as a machine, not necessarily just scrapping day to day, uh, and not hustling and grinding. Cause we can only rely on hustle and muscle so much. Jacques Hopkins: [00:24:18] Yeah, and look, I never really aspired to be at that point. Like when I wanted to create the most like the easiest possible business to run, I wanted no employees. I wanted very little help. I wanted to try to do it all myself and just build a business that really served me. But I found that as my product helped more and more people like the only really way to scale this was to, to find great people, to help me and to, to have systems, to go along with it. And we're getting better and better and both parts. But your, your book has inspired me to, to that, that, there's so even so much room for growth in both of those areas for my company. So my next question is like, where, where did you learn this stuff? Like w w what's your background and how'd you come across all this awesome stuff. Austin Netzley: [00:25:04] Yeah, uh, through trial and error. Um, my background, so I, I went to college to, uh, get a mechanical engineering degree and I did zero days of actual mechanical engineering, but I wanted that fundamental engineering knowledge and base because I was going to combine that I had this... When I was 18. I had this trifecta of an idea that was going to take me up the corporate ladder. All my family was in the corporate world. So I was like, all right, I'm going to be a CEO of a large company. So I had this plan. I'm going to get my mechanical engineering degree. I was going to go back and get some sales experience, which at the time, super introverted nerd engineer, like sales was a big step for me, but I wanted to learn the sales world and then combine that and go back and get my MBA. That, those three things was going to be my trifecta. That was going to take me up to the up the corporate ladder and the fast track. Uh, so I started down that path. I worked for a big oil company was out in sales, got some experience there, uh, knock to, they say to kind of knock the nerd off of us. And then, um, started to go back and get ready to get my MBA. And I was like, wait a minute. I'm not jealous of any of my managers there. I don't want to be any of them. I don't want that life. I want more control and more impact than these different things. So I'm like, all right, I'm not going to go get the MBA. And I took a hard left and went towards my own businesses and uh, long story short, this is now my fifth business. So throughout the times I've had at different agencies, different online businesses, courses, I've worked with a ton of entrepreneurs and then ultimately started doing some coaching where with coaching, I've learned and got to see so many different businesses, how they structure, but all the time, my mind always worked as a mechanical engineer. So it all came full circle that now what we do is help people turn their business into a machine by focusing on systems, by focusing on operations, by focusing on efficiencies and taking the simplest and most direct path to things. So it comes full circle there. But, uh, so combine the mechanical engineering and that mentality with the systems and structure throughout my career, and then tacking that on with being exposed to so many different businesses and having so many different businesses myself, uh, has led us to be like, all right, we figured out a blueprint for, here's a simpler better way to scale. This is where most people are missing up. This is something that works over and over and over again, across so many different industries, especially with online businesses. So let's put that together and share that with the world. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:20] There's some similarities in our story, but there's one very distinct difference. Um, that, that a path that you took, that I went the other way, that shows why you are, where you are, is very interesting. I'd love to talk about that, but I don't know if you know this, but I went to school for engineering as well, electrical. LSU, Go Tigers. Um, and then I went to work in kind of the oil field as an engineer. And I read 4-Hour Workweek ,was shortly after it came out. And, and that really opened my eyes to possibly being an entrepreneur for the first time in my life. But I didn't really know what to... Like, okay. It sounds good. Like all these cool things that he's doing sounds good, but what would my thing be? And then an opportunity came up when I was 20, either 23 or 24 to get my MBA online at the University of Florida. Big rival. And, um, I took... Austin Netzley: [00:28:11] That's actually where I was looking, too. Cause I was in Jacksonville, Florida. I was looking at it. It was literally getting ready to go to UF. Jacques Hopkins: [00:28:16] Yeah, they got it. They have a good, or at least they did have a very good high, highly rated program. I took that because it felt like the easier path, like looking back instead of the grit and trying to start a company of some sort, I felt, I felt like it was easy to just pay $60,000 and go get an education. And maybe that would open doors. Right. It was a very lazy path to take. Whereas you were about to. And you decided to go the business route instead, so kudos to you, man. And I'm guessing you have no regrets about not getting that MBA. Austin Netzley: [00:28:44] Uh, definitely. Definitely. That would have definitely changed my career trajectory. But as soon as I started to learn about this, this entrepreneurship, where I was like, oh wait, I can control my destiny. I can, you know, make a bigger impact. I can ultimately make a lot more money. These things. I was like, that's beautiful. Bad thing is I started my first business. I had none of those things. I had no freedom, no money, no time, a ton of stress, no impact. And I was like, wait a minute. I was promised this beautiful thing called entrepreneurship. Like, where is those benefits? Right. And ultimately found that I was the one screwing those up. And I actually found that most entrepreneurs were in a similar spot, not having any freedom, not having any great lifestyle and not living the life and the reason why they even got into business to begin with. So went on that journey to figure out, all right, how do I do this? And then now how do we do this upscale by helping other people as well? Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:39] Well, let's, let's talk about some, what those, some of those things are, people are asking when, when I say, hey, you got to read this book. They're like, okay, well, what's it about? And what I'm speaking to course creators, I'm like, look, what, what Austin is saying is that the things that you did to take you to be a six figure course creator are not the same things that are going to take you from a six-figure course creator to a seven-figure course creator. If we're talking just to course creators, is that a fair, just overall assessment of the book? Austin Netzley: [00:30:04] Uh, absolutely that that's, that's how we start the book. Literally on page one is like, congrats, you made it to six-figures now get ready to change most of what you're doing, because that is not going to be the proper path necessarily to seven. And this is what happens. Is most times, so people will start in business, but get some quick wins and then they may get up to $100 or $200,000 fairly quickly, maybe, maybe a little bit more, but they're low six-figures fairly quickly. And what happens at that point in time, they've had this pretty fast growth after they figured out, you know, what their product is. To get to that point, then they start to stable off. Right. And they, they really are at having this glass ceiling and they're not able to really break through. Sometimes they have, you know, spikes in, but then, then they have these valleys right after. And ultimately they're just really over time staying pretty flat. So, uh, we want to break through that ceiling. We want to break through that cycle and again, to do so we've got to change. So if anybody, I have literally met nobody in my life. That got 250, 200, $250,000 a year in their business that doesn't have the potential with just a couple tweaks to get to a million dollars a year. Like that's a big hurdle to get to that first six-figures or multiple six-figures. And if you get to that point, you're literally just a couple of weeks away from getting to seven-figures from my experience. So what we want to do is help to, uh, tap into that. Uh, and again, as you just said, it's going to take a couple changes. Jacques Hopkins: [00:31:26] Yeah. And, and th there are a lot of those tweaks are what's in the book. My big takeaways were teams and systems, in your opinion, is one more important than the other? Austin Netzley: [00:31:35] Uh, out of those two, those two are two, uh, two sides of the same coin. So like you can't have a great team without great systems and you should, uh, can't, you know, you can have all the systems in the world, but if you don't have the teams execute them, then they're not necessarily doing as much good. So what we talk about is there's a very strategic order to business, and that's a big thing that most don't understand, because if you look at the online marketing world, if you look at the information marketing world, so many people are touting the latest tactic and at the end of the day, business is business is business and it goes back to so much of the same fundamental principles. Tactics are beautiful. Like we love them, but after we do a certain amount of other things. And after we set up the business and after we make sure that you've got some free time. So following the book in the strategic order is the best thing. And if you do that systems do come before team because a lot of people, well, A, there's there's other things before either systems or team, or those are two of the, the, the big highlights. And we can break those down a little bit more detail, but first and foremost, we've gotta look at your mindset. We've got to look at your vision and make sure that we unlock some things there from your mindset and make sure that you're not making the, the scarcity minded, limiting belief, a mentality that so many people have, I had in myself, I went on a hard journey to change my own mindset. So we've got to change your mindset. And have you seen believe in that next level, which is, you know, for a lot of people in the book, just to get it to the, get to that seven-figure mark. Next is really understanding what your vision is and what you ultimately want to create. And again, it's much more than money it's that freedom, it's that family life, it's that lifestyle, it's the impact that you want to make. We've got to get clear on that because then step two is we're going to design the strategy around how to get there. And the million dollar question that we talked about in the book is what's the simplest and most direct path, right? So you say, hey, this is my vision. This is my goal. This is my dream situation. This is what I look like. What we want to do is figure out what's the best model and strategy and approach to help you get there. And we break down the strategy in a few different pillars. Uh, it's the model for how your business is structured. And we love online businesses or the most businesses that we work with right now, because the model is so scalable if you do it right. Um, so that we've got to look at the model. We've got to look at your plan of action, and we've got to look at your differentiation. And then the fourth is we've got to look at your, uh, levers, usually your marketing levers of how we're going to grow. So if we can nail those four things, you're going to have a good strategy to be set up to double and double again, the company is called 2X because that's usually our focus. If somebody comes in at 20K a month, our goal is all right, I know you want to get to a million bucks. That's great. But first we're just going to double, we're going to get from 20K a month to a consistent 40K a month. And once we get there, we're gonna get to a consistent 80K a month and then on, up and up. So, um, uh, those are a couple of things. There is take the order. Don't start with systems. Don't start with team. Let's make sure that we really nail your vision and strategy or your vision and mindset. Then we're going to go into making sure that we really nail your strategy. And here's the thing is most people will come to us and say, "Hey Austin, I already got to $200,000. I'm good on strategy. Let's go mark to marketing. What do I need to get more leads? I just need more leads." That's the number one thing that we hear and we're like, wait, before we get to that, we're going to talk a lot about marketing. Don't worry about that. Let's look at your strategy and we realize they are doing way too much. They've got so much complexity. They're not differentiated. Their model is actually not set up the scale. It's built around them in their time that dah, dah, dah, dah, we got a lot to do before we can talk about marketing, before we can talk about sales, before we can even talk about systems and team. So this is why we start with the great killer foundation. Even if somebody comes to us and they're doing two million a year, we spend a ton of time on really nailing this first couple pieces. Cause if we get that right, that just unlocked so much. Make sure that when we do get to grow, we're growing consistently and control controllably with high conversions and you're setting your team, you're setting your time, you're setting your sales conversions, and your marketing up for big success if you do it right. So that's the big point that I'm getting across is if I had to summarize the book, I would say there's a very strategic order to growing a business and you've got to follow that order in the proper way. Jacques Hopkins: [00:35:39] Yeah, you're very clear about that at the beginning of the book, in that not only do we have all these great strategies and ideas, but hey, there's a reason we need to go through it in this order. And you just, you just reiterated that you also mentioned, uh, online businesses. Is that, is that who you specifically help is online businesses or do you work with in-person businesses as well? Austin Netzley: [00:35:58] We do in-person businesses a little bit, but, uh, 90 something percent of the companies that we work with are either online or service-based and service-based could be like accountants or financial planners. But a lot of online businesses, we love online businesses the most, because we can scale them the fastest and accountant agency or a digital agency we can scale for sure. But we, like, there's just a little bit harder to quadruple in 60 days. Like we do with some of our clients, you know,. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:26] Do you work with a lot of course creators? Austin Netzley: [00:36:27] Yes, we do. Online, online coaches and course creators are our number one segment. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:31] Cool. Very cool. So just to pull out a couple of, uh, of takeaways from the book in, in kind of a random order, I know this is out of order, but... Austin Netzley: [00:36:38] Yes, it's cool. One thing that I really liked hearing was how you measure reactivity as like a KPI and the 72 hour rule, which my understanding was basically everybody in your team understands that they should not request something from somebody else within 72 hours. And if they do, that's breaking that rule and that's just to promote a culture of proactivity and, um, and not, and I guess deep work too, right? Not interrupting what somebody is already planning in this, in the next 72 hours. How important do you think that is? Uh, it's life-changing so that's important and let's start there. Um, so you know, a lot of people. All you need to do is look at all right. When are you most productive? Right? Everybody is most productive at certain times, but some commonalities that you'll hear are some people are most productive, like my favorite time to work for years used to be on Saturday mornings. And then finally I was like, wait a minute. Why do I love to work on Saturday mornings? Oh, nobody else is working. I got no distractions. I can get more done in two hours than I did than I feel like in the last two days, Other people will say, oh, getting on a plane, a plane for me. I bang it out. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. We don't have distractions on, on the plane. Right. We don't even have internet. So it's like, all right, let's recreate that. And what's the principle there. The principle is there is we don't have notifications. We don't have distractions. So if we can do deep work, the only thing stopping people between, uh, where they are and where they want to go is usually a mindset, a strategy, and some deep work. If we just do those couple things then then we're going to be in a beautiful spot. So, um, we've got to, uh, create the systems and structure to, to, to do that. And limiting reactivity for yourself and for your team is game changing to do that. So for instance, imagine your day where you're just getting pinged throughout the day, right? You're getting a lot of questions. Like that's a day where you, you end the day exhausted. You're like, I know I was busy. I know I worked hard, but I feel like I got nothing really important done. Whereas if you have a full day where you can do just deep work and there's literally no reactions. Like you, you, you, you, you get, you know, at least five times the amount of stuff done, that's true for you. It's also true for your team. Right? And as a hustling entrepreneur, what are we doing? We're causing just as many, if not more fires for our team by saying, hey, do this, do this, hey, pull there, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Like, they can't do any deep work. And then at the end of the month, we're like, what did you get done? Like, I'm paying you X thousand dollars, you know, what did you get done? It's because they weren't giving them the distractions. We're giving them too much. So we want to limit it for everyone, not just for you. Set up the structure in place. So the 72 hour rule will help you do that, right? It's like no requests within 72 hours. So this way people can plan, people can do deep work, people aren't, you know, just looking at their email or looking at their messages or looking at their Slack, uh, to, to have all these notifications and distractions they can do actual deep work. So set a plan, get out of people's way and do deep work. That's what you got to do. Jacques Hopkins: [00:39:35] No, I love it. I, it reminds me of my time as an electric engineer, I worked for the same company for eight years, had the same boss for eight years and he was amazing, but he was, he was a hard worker. He put in long hours and he would come into the office at like 5:00 AM, sometimes 4:00 AM, each day because he knew that's the only time he could have a couple hours or nobody would bug him because all day from 8:00 to 5:00, everybody's constantly knocking on the door, asking him, I mean, he had 20 engineers underneath them. So the only time he could do that deep work was at that time because we didn't have, you know, a 72 hour rule in place. So if given what you've said, like, how should we, how should we start to apply that? Like, should I not have Slack open all day so that my team can communicate with me? Austin Netzley: [00:40:17] The best thing that you can do is start your day with at least two hours of momentum. So what we'd like to do is not check Slack. It's it's called our Done By 10:30 strategy, which will be a future book that we have coming out. But, uh, done by 10:30. The goal is to have a crazy, crazy, crazy successful day by 10:30 AM. And that almost all of that time is with deep work on your most important thing. So if you can do that where you're moving the business forward every single morning, and then getting into some of the reactive stuff and then getting into some of the client, or team or, or whatever, uh, uh, meetings that you have, but having that morning time for yourself, at least three days a week, that's going to move the business forward in a big way. So in setting that structure with the entire team, so everybody knows for instance with us, uh, Wednesdays are our, our crush it days. So no meetings before noon on Wednesday, it's, you know, 1:30 that we had it. And this is my first time I've seen anybody today. Um, uh, at the time of this recording. So, uh, set that structure for yourself, set that structure for your team start fast in that way. The second thing is, as reactivity does come up, because it will come up, it's not like you're just going to turn a switch and like, boom, your business, a machine everything's peaceful, there's no fires yet. It's going to be a process. So as reactivity does come up, log that, writing that down. And we have a spreadsheet in a toolkit that we can give away to, uh, that that shares exactly the same structure that we use to actually log it. And the reason why this is important is by writing it down and saying, this was reactive, our brain starts to like, make it tangible to say, okay, that action was not good. I had to waste my, you know, seven minutes of my time to fill in this sheet for this reactivity thing that I did. And you won't do that many times, you know, before you stopped being reactive. So have your team share that anytime that something's reactive, you write it down as well. And again, you're making it tangible and you're going to stop it pretty soon. And then, you know, soon you're going to make sure that you have a good plan to make sure that you're communicating in the proper way. So there's not fires, there's not the busy-ness of regular business. You're doing deep work and everybody can actually move ahead and it makes for a lot more fun. It makes for a lot more stress and it sure as heck makes for a lot better impact. Jacques Hopkins: [00:42:28] Yeah, and I love how defined it is because if I have somebody on my team, that's constantly coming to me, requesting things, as soon as I can get them to I'm with the, you know, same day, it's like, I could have a conversation, "Hey, uh, don't, don't be so last minute on this stuff," but whereas with you, you've got a system in place where it's like, no, we have a 72 hour rule and it's, it's very defined. Austin Netzley: [00:42:49] And those things will come up and, and one thing that you can do in the meantime, definitely, do the things that we've talked about so far, but if you have a daily huddle, it's one of the most important meetings that you can have. If you have, if you have more than the zero people on your team, you should be doing a daily huddle to just communicate and train everybody to bring any questions or needs to that meeting. So that way there's not 50 Slack messages or whatever throughout the day, they're bringing their questions and challenges to that so that you can cover it real quick. And then you may need to set a meeting say, hey, we've got to go deeper on this. We're not going to cover in five minutes. Like let's have a meeting on that tomorrow afternoon or whatever. So you can do that. But training everybody, no reactivity, bring those questions and challenges to the meeting that way. There's that set time. So think of your boss, your old boss. If he had set open hours, open office hours, a couple of times per day, or a couple times throughout the week, everybody bring your questions and challenges then. Just imagine how his life would change. He wouldn't have to get up at 4:00 AM or whatever it would be. And so many people do that. So set the structure to give you the freedom that you want. That's something that we talk so much about. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:53] So you meet with your team every day. Austin Netzley: [00:43:55] I do not, but if you're at. Uh, and initial, uh, part of your business definitely recommend that. Every one of our departments has a meeting every single day with their whole team, but I'm completely out of the day-to-day that I don't do those meetings anymore, but I used to, for years, for years and years, I did daily huddles. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:13] So how big is your team at this point? Austin Netzley: [00:44:15] Uh, it's 25 people plus or minus. So it might be 27 somewhere in there, but, uh, we've got every single department now has a daily huddle. But until you're about probably I'd say about seven or eight people, you can have just one meeting. You don't have to break it up by departments. And I would just have one daily huddle for anybody that's at least 20 hours a week in your business to get on that. And again, that way you're just, you're just pulsing really well. You're just going through maybe a couple of numbers that, that the business has focused on. Go through here's what I did last 24 hours. Here's what I'm going to do next 24 hours. Here's any places that I'm stuck and questions that I have. And you just, it can be even with eight people, it can be a seven minute meeting. So it's just very high paced, fast touch, uh, but it keeps everyone aligned, brings all the questions, allows you to build rapport and everybody gets everybody clear. And now they're clear for the next 24 hours. This is the most important thing. These are my top three, uh, priorities and what we're going to focus on. And then you have the accountability built in. So there's so many benefits of it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:45:11] Oh, it sounds good. Now, now my team is probably spread out across maybe six different countries. Do you still recommend it when everybody's in a very significant, uh, different, significantly different time zone? Austin Netzley: [00:45:22] Absolutely. Uh, we have people across at least four different continents. So we've got people all over the world and each time, like if you have enough people, then again, you can do different times. Some people was just not going to work. So there's some people that, you know, maybe in the Philippines or whatever that work their day, which is, you know, not U.S. hours, so that overlaps not going to work. So maybe you'd do a recording with them, but they still should be updating the sheet so that everybody can see, are still updating where their questions are so that everything's covered there. So there's still different ways to get around it. But. Most critical people that are in the day-to-day for the business, you should be meeting with them. So what I do now, you know, we're, we're, you know, we've got enough people and I'm not in the day-to-day at all. So what I do is I meet with my, uh, three only, we've got three direct reports right now. So I would meet with my three direct reports every Thursday. And we'd go through anywhere between 60 to 90 minutes, depending on the department. Just my one-on-ones with them. So I give them the full clarity for the week. I get fully caught up on exactly what's going on, and then I'm out of their way, the rest of the week so that they can get done. Their departments can get done what they need to. So eventually you may move to, to doing that. But at the beginning, I definitely recommend pulsing well with the daily huddle. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:35] Yeah, that makes sense. So you're, you are the CEO that sits way at the top. I mean, these 25, 27 employees that you said that's all 2X, or is that spread across multiple companies? Austin Netzley: [00:46:45] It's all 2X, it's all 2X. Jacques Hopkins: [00:46:48] What are your thoughts on, uh, employees versus contractors? Austin Netzley: [00:46:51] Uh, it, it, it, it totally depends. Uh, we have a lot of part-time people, so we've got probably 12 of those people, if not 14 are our coaches. Uh, so they're, they're part-time, but at the right time, you do want to move people to full-time. You know, it's, it's a mindset shift. There are benefits to both sides. There are drawbacks to both sides, but, at the end of the day, if you do have full-time people in they're in the U.S., you've got to do it right from a legal standpoint and just make sure that you don't mess around with that. So. Jacques Hopkins: [00:47:22] So what do you, um, what do you do now and your like, Office Space? "What would you, what would you say you do around here?" Is it just like you're, you're a full-time author now, is that what you do? Austin Netzley: [00:47:29] Uh, no. Uh, my biggest time and energy goes towards whatever our number one bottleneck is. So. It was, uh, going back and improving some elements of our program. Uh, so that was super fun to jump back in and work with our head of fulfillment and our head coach to really, really dial things in to the next level. Right now it's on marketing. So working with our marketing team to see, hey, what can we do to take things to the next level? We're really going deep for the first time into Facebook ads. I'm super excited for that to turn that into just a full on machine. We are going deep into content and content marketing. So I'm super excited for that. So just spearheading and working with our teams on the biggest bottleneck and initiative at any time. So I like to work like we're making a big impact on the world. So I love what we're doing. I love to create some, always creating content. I've got more books coming out, yada yada. So a lot of things related to either content or marketing or the biggest bottleneck and right now, the biggest bottleneck is marketing as we look to explode in the next 12 months. So. That's where my time and energy goes, but the cool thing is it's like, I can choose where that time energy goes. Right. And it's not monotonous and it's not like literally nothing that I don't want to do. Jacques Hopkins: [00:48:39] So you, uh, you mentioned some part-time coaches and whatnot, and I know, you know, like Abbey's in your program for example, and she's got a dedicated coach, as far as I know, who is not you. Right? How do you get to a point in your business where you can find somebody to coach somebody else on on your kind of your knowledge. Like, I, I teach piano, right? We have seven or eight people on the team. I'm the only one that, that plays or teaches piano, but I would love to have other people in the team that can help out. How do you get to a point where you can do that? Austin Netzley: [00:49:08] Yeah. Uh, systems, uh, systems are the way. So everything that you do for your piano playing, whether you know it or not is a system, uh, that then becomes a skill, right? There's there's some type of framework or there's some type of way... I think an algorithms, right? It's just mechanical engineering. And it's like, I was like, all right, these businesses, there's an algorithm. There's a framework for how to scale them, there's steps. And within each one of those steps, there's again a step-by-step process. So there's a framework. There's a, uh, an algorithm within that. So what I was doing at the beginning as we started 2X, I was doing all the coaching. I was literally doing all the coaching, all the sales, all the marketing, everything myself. Yes. We had a couple other team members. But I wanted to do all that myself to start and to figure out what was our product, really? What were we helping them with? And while I was doing that, I was creating all these structures, all these systems, all these frameworks for this is how I did it with this client. And now over time, we've got all these structures laid out that this is exactly how to follow, this is the blueprint. And then what we do is once we've got those systems in place, As you say, hey, we've got this super smart person. They can understand and learn all of these systems, combine their own brilliance to that. And now they can do just as good a job as, as I can, uh, in helping, uh, grow another company. So it's a systems mentality to be able to take what's in your mind, in what you do on a day to day and break that down into simple steps that other people can follow. And now we've got so much IP, we've got so many frameworks, we've got so much methodology that's in the form of systems. That, uh, people can do themselves, especially with the support and guidance of a one-on-one coach. Jacques Hopkins: [00:50:49] That makes sense. So if you've got the systems in place and then you ready to go start looking for somebody, that's, that's another thing that really jumped out at me in the book was how you go about hiring. And it's, it's not a traditional approach. I've heard Abbey talk about it because she, she does it exactly. Like you guys have taught her, I suppose. But it's actually, from what I understood, you actually set up like a landing page, like a sales page for the job post, you have like a call to action button. You even talked about driving ads to, to that. You've found that that doing all of those things is what, what it takes to just find the world-class talent. Austin Netzley: [00:51:24] Absolutely. Do the most important sales and marketing that you can do is for people, because if you get a really, really solid person on your team, they will change your life. Right. Like, there's not many clients that you can say of like, you know, I sold this extra course. You can't really say the extra course sales, sold your life. So the most important sales and marketing that you can do is to hire and build a great team around you. And what we've done is exactly, as you said, we took a Salesforce, a sales page, like a full on long form sales page. We've got a big headline at the top. We've got a video that goes into the role. We're sharing the vision. We've got a countdown timer, we've got all this stuff to really push people to say, hey, this is your dream opportunity if you're this person. And by doing so we get on, you know, some rock stars and then more rock stars, you know, no other rock stars. And all of a sudden you've got this team of 27 people that's world-class talent. Right. So treating it and taking it very, very seriously. Most people just put a job posting out there. And they hope that they get lucky that somebody stumbles into it and then that they're cheap. And the high-performing, you know, it's like, no, let's go out and let's, let's find somebody. Like what's the A-player want? The A-player wants to work with a winning company. They want to, you know, probably make some type of impact. They want to, uh, work with other A-players. So you want to put together the structure that gets the A-player excited to say, hey, this is the opportunity for me because they have other things that they can do. Uh, they're not looking to just stumble on some random job application and, and, you know, come save your life. So we've got to set that up and we really, really sell the positions that we hire for pretty strong. And that leads to everything. And that leads to that leads all the way down to our client's experience. Right now, our clients have a much better experience because they work with amazing people across the board and they get higher results. So it just is a self fulfilling prophecy, but it starts with hiring amazing people. Jacques Hopkins: [00:53:14] All right. So you've got this, a very successful coaching program. And then you wrote a book with a lot of these concepts. Why, why write a book? Is it as simple as, hey, this is now kind of top of funnel, getting people into the coaching program. Austin Netzley: [00:53:27] Um, uh, a bunch of reasons. One of my previous businesses was actually a book marketing agency. So I had a small platform. I had a blog and podcast talking about money in the mindset, two of my favorite topics because my first business was investing. So that was my second business, was this blog and podcasts that had some, some coaching elements involved. And I came out with a book and as soon as I came out with the book, it just exploded me on the scene, like overnight. Like I went from not having any respect and like trying to get on a podcast and everything to having, you know, The Washington Post and Business Insider, all like a
134 minutes | a month ago
164: The KING of UDEMY on Why 100 Courses are Better Than 1 (Featuring Phil Ebinar)
In what is possibly the most requested interview in the history of this show, Phil Ebiner joins me today to chat about all things online course-related! Whether you’ve been looking forward to this for ages, or this is your first time hearing about how Phil is crushing it in the online course world, I think you’re going to find a lot of value in today’s episode. “Every little course is a different stream of income.” – Phil Ebiner In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:41) Catching up and thinking about pricing (5:00) The biggest ideas that affect my pricing strategy (12:02) Base-rate neglect (15:55) Order bumps vs. one-time offers (22:34) The importance of keeping your audience in mind (24:43) A good problem I’m currently having (26:25) Pros and cons to price raises (27:03) Setting the stage for today’s interview 29:30) Phil’s thoughts on managing family life and business ownership (36:42) The freedom of being your own boss (37:55) Debt, traditional education, and finding jobs (43:31) Phil’s online course journey (48:37) Platform choices (52:36) Thinking about the pros and cons of different platform structures (1:01:01) High ticket vs. low ticket (1:02:39) Thoughts on course that cost more than average (1:04:25) Passive income and urgency (1:06:12) The two paths to choose from (1:14:07) How Phil uses other instructors and shares profits (1:19:02) Making the transition to online courses (1:20:46) Deciding which content belongs in which part of Phil’s business (1:22:43) Answering questions about the online course world (1:25:15) Talking tools (1:30:19) Phil’s hardware recommendations (1:33:46) Webcam resources from Phil + an early pandemic giveaway (1:36:12) How 2020 impacted our businesses (1:40:01) Phil’s experience with obstacles (1:43:09) Why not just stop? (1:44:37) Where to find Phil online (1:47:00) David sends a bearhug + and we discuss our takeaways (1:50:23) Favorite questions and some family backstory (1:52:10) Online course alternatives to traditional problems (1:54:58) A $36,000 course? (1:58:28) My own course experiences with live components (2:00:13) Can a new instructor break into Udemy success? (2:05:29) Branching out and overcoming obstacles (2:11:02) Different strokes for different folks (2:14:49) Wrapping up and teasing next week’s episode That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Phil’s website Phil’s courses Phil’s Udemy page Online Course Masters podcast Books and Resources: Make Time Udemy Skillshare Career Quest Teachable ConvertKit ScreenFlow Canva HootSuite Buffer Edgar Brio webcam Sony A6000 Raycast lighting Aputure lights Evolved Finance course Consulting.com Dad is Fat From 6 to 7 Figures Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:02] Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins and this is The Online Course Show. Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:32] And off we go. Welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I am your host, Jacques Hopkins, and here with me as well as our co-host. What's up, Dr. K.? David Kroshe: [00:00:40] What's up? Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:41] Back for another episode of The Online Course Show. This is 164. Got an exciting guest on the on the show today. But before we get into that, what's going on with you? How are you, man? David Kroshe: [00:00:52] I've been doing fantastic up here. Just enjoying the Iowa winter. What about you? Jacques Hopkins: [00:00:58] Not enjoying the Louisiana winter. It is... It's been, it's been a cold one so far. It has to be thinking about places like Puerto Rico. You know, we had Jason Deon come on and he moved his whole family to Puerto Rico. I would imagine the winter there is not quite as bad as here, which is not quite as bad as where you are. David Kroshe: [00:01:16] Correct. Yeah, he starts to sound pretty brilliant, so. Yeah. And you're wearing your LSU football sweatshirt. So representing today. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:22] Go Tigers, man. Yeah. David Kroshe: [00:01:25] Looks good. Jacques Hopkins: [00:01:26] So I think you had you had one thing that you would like to talk about a little bit before we jump into this, this full conversation. David Kroshe: [00:01:33] Correct. Yes. The listeners will hear in the interview with Phil Eibner, you talk about just where your pricing is today and you did a test of a test run of bumping your price up to a thousand dollars. David Kroshe: [00:01:46] And so recently I found a article, a blog post by Neil Patel called The Five Psychological Hacks That Will Make Your Pricing Page Irresistible. And I thought we could discuss that a little bit, but just also discuss pricing in general, your opinion on some of these things. So first off, before we get into the five things in Neil Patel's blog post, what do you think about just one price for your course? What are your thoughts on that? Have you ever done that? Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:16] Yeah, I've done that, in fact, I always, always, always, when I was first getting the idea, when I was first getting online courses, my idea was always $297 for my piano course, that one price. And when you say one price, I assume like it's here's what the offer is, here's what the price is. There are no other options. David Kroshe: [00:02:34] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:34] Right. And I remember, I'm sure I've told the story in the podcast before, but I remember when I got the idea for an online piano course early 2013. I was telling my wife about it and she's like, that sounds pretty cool. Like how much, how much you can charge for something like that. And I was like, I'm thinking like I'm not sure but I'm thinking like $297. Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:53] And she goes, "Who in the hell is going to pay that for that?" Jacques Hopkins: [00:02:58] I'll never I'll never forget that. And I was like, well I, I think some people might well see and I originally launched it saying, hey, this is, this is new, like early bird. You can get it for a steep discount. Ninety-seven bucks. But for the first couple of years it was just one one course, one option, it was $297 and you could do a payment plan. I think I implemented that pretty pretty quickly as well. And then it was it was several years into it that I added a higher end option and a lower end option as well. So yes, I do have experience. A long way to answer your question. David Kroshe: [00:03:38] Got it. Well, I kind of skipped over something I wanted to mention just briefly, is that when we talk about pricing, I mean, there are three different goals here. As a business owner, your true goal is to maximize profit. If we just look at it purely from a business perspective, maximize profit is it. A second goal would be serve the customer the best. So if you say I want to serve customers the best, that could mean that you want to serve more customers so you lower the price. A higher price can mean that you can offer the customers more. And then in this category of serving the customers the best, we are talking about small business and you have your own personal emotions. You're allowed to do whatever you want with your small business. So you might you might set some personal rule that you say, I would want my grandfather to be willing to sign up for this course. And you might put this top number that you say, you know, my my grandfather would not spend a $1,000 on a piano course, but he would spend $700. And you just set that number. You're allowed to do whatever you want there when you say define serve the customer the best. The third thing would be keep things simple and avoid difficult record keeping. And I know that's something that you you probably everything you think about pricing, you're like, yeah, that might increase profit a little tiny bit, but it adds all this complexity. And so that can be something that you want to avoid is just saying I don't want this like nightmare of record keeping. So with your current all the things that are offered in these additional courses that you've just offered so far, new listeners, you added, of course, Jazz Piano In 21 Days, you have Classical Piano In 21 Days, does going back to a one price option appeal to you at all? And if you did it, what would that what would the price be that would meet those criteria just out of curiosity. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:23] Yeah. So the price, if it were just one price it would either be like $497, $697 or $997. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:29] But I think there is great advantages to having multiple pricing options. The article that you mentioned from Neil Patel, I definitely read through it. You send it to me ahead of time and he talks about how you can have, I don't know if price anchoring is the right word for it, but just having multiple options instills certain psychological triggers in people. But what's interesting is that he talks about in the article, it's usually the middle option you're trying to drive people toward. Jacques Hopkins: [00:05:58] And at this point, you know, but back when I had the one product at $997 or excuse me, $297, I was like, OK, I want to I want to try to get a little more money per per customer. And so I added a $497 option and threw in more value over there. But at the same time I felt like I was leaving a little bit of money on the table with, with kind of a lower end as well. And so I added the $97 option. So what's interesting is that the middle option is not my most popular option like his, like Neil Patel's article suggests. Eighty percent of my buyers actually go for the the high end package. David Kroshe: [00:06:34] Ok, well, jumping into Neil Patel's article, I would say that you actually did one of his strategies, which was called the decoy effect. And I don't think you viewed it that way. David Kroshe: [00:06:44] But the decoy effect, essentially, he says if you have, you want to drive people toward your your highest end option, he says if you had just two options, they would often go for the lowest option. But he says add a mid priced option that lets lets people justify their purchase of the top option through a two-step process. So you want this mid priced option to be mispriced, essentially. And so essentially, if somebody is in your course, they're looking at your funnel and your options, they look at the $100, $100 book and they say, well, I want to do an online course like that, doesn't sound like a good option. So then they say, well, I can at least do the $297 option. That's a starting point for the course. And then they look at that and they're like, yeah, I definitely I want to join the course. And then they look at all the additional value that they get for just $200 more and all of a sudden they're saying, "Yeah but for just $200 more, I guess I get to actually hang out with Jacques one-on-one. I get the actual physical package." And so that was the decoy effect is that your $297 option was essentially low on value and it makes that highest priced option just seem like a no brainer. Like, yeah, like of course I'm going to spend $297 more to get all this additional value. So yeah, I would say that you definitely did the decoy effect. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:06] Yes, I agree completely. And that's that, that was my intent. And it works because for the for the low end package they get they get one thing and I have a pricing table that looks good. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:17] It's very clear the value you're getting that the middle option, you get two things. You get the book and the basic course. But then on the on the $497 package, you get like eleven things. David Kroshe: [00:08:26] Right. Jacques Hopkins: [00:08:26] So you described it perfectly where it's like you're walking through your options. It's like, OK, well maybe I could do $297 but but for just another $200 I get all this extra stuff. Holy smokes. I'm really trying to stack on the value on that top end package while also being able to offer something to the people that just can't afford the $500. David Kroshe: [00:08:49] Right. And so that saying that like the middle option is a psychological effect, he calls out in the center stage effect. And I would say you could do that more just on the actual page. So if you if you create your new options, they gave the example that they say some gas stations put premium gas in the middle. So that's clearly by far the most expensive option. But they put it in the middle because they know psychologically people go toward the middle one. And so the other thing that he recommends is you point out the most popular option. And so I would say, yes, you are still, no matter what you do with your new pricing, you're going to drive people toward that highest end option. But when you put it on, like you show these three options, you would put the most expensive one in the middle on the actual physical page without really long list of things. You'd make it like a different shade of gray where and put at the bottom and the top Most Popular Option, because your most expensive option is the most popular. So even though it's a little bit different version of your of your highest end package, you say most popular and that's going to be the center stage effect and the bandwagon effect still put in place, even though you're driving people toward not the middle option as far as pricing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:06] Very, very interesting. That's not something I guess I kind of miss that point in the article. Jacques Hopkins: [00:10:11] But now that you say that they did have an image of like a gas pump where the the highest what's it called octane level, like the 93 level most expensive, but it's in the middle of the three choices that you press. And so what you're saying is that right now on my sales page, I've got them in order of of lease to most of price. So let's try moving that $497 package. Just the graphic, the way it looks, let's move it to the middle instead of all the way to the right. And this article is suggesting it might perform even better than it is now. That is something that I would love to split test. I wouldn't want to just do it. But that's that's a prime candidate for a split test. And if you're using something like ClickFunnels, it's pretty easy to do a split test like that. You can, I don't know if listeners have done many split tests, but with with ClickFunnels specifically, I know there's a little slider and you don't have to just do fifty-fifty traffic. You can you can say, OK, send fifty percent of the traffic to this sales page, this version and fifty percent of this version. Jacques Hopkins: [00:11:14] But you can also split it differently. You can say seventy two percent versus twenty eight percent and so on. So I'm just creating two different versions of the sales page that are very similar except for that pricing table and split testing. It would be a really interesting thing to do. David Kroshe: [00:11:29] Correct. Yeah, I do think that the results would be pretty, pretty minimal. I mean, that's not going to be the biggest thing because also verbally, verbally, you should be doing this as well, is especially that bandwagon effect, just emphasizing most people, most people choose this highest end option because as you can see, it's so loaded with additional value and it only costs $200 more. So just just most people look at this and just say, I'm going to go with that. So the effects of just moving the highest price to the middle one, I think would have just a small effect. One of the other things from Neil Patel's Five Psychological Hacks, he recommends using something called base rate neglect. And this base rate neglect says that when people are only confronted with with pricing options that are fairly similar, they kind of forget the context of kind of like what they could do if they were just out shopping around. And so an example in that article is they say let's say that you go to a small mechanic and the options for an oil change are $69.99, $69.99 or $79.99. You know, you're there already. You're like, yeah, let's go ahead. Let's, let's actually do the $79.99 one. And so you kind of forget that you could go to Wal-Mart and get an oil change for twenty-five bucks because it's like you're already in that situation. I would say the most, most vivid example of this would be movie theater popcorn. David Kroshe: [00:13:00] So once you walk in there, assuming that you're not like supersaver kind of person who stopped by Walgreen's before and bought some Mike & Ike's, but once you're at the movie theater, you you kind of are just like, OK, you know, popcorn starts at $8. There's a $12 option and then a $15 option. And, you know, you just you're like, OK, I'm here, I smell the smells. I'm going to go ahead and buy this. And I did actually do some research on movie theater popcorn because it's a good example and it's a bad example because a lot of people would say, well, that's extortionist, The deal with movie theater popcorn is that movies, movie theaters make almost no money on the movies. And so the movies are in a way, a loss leader. They make like $2 a ticket. And so then the food ends up being where they can actually become profitable and survive. But, I would say that's an example of why a funnel works if you just, if you just put your price there, the $497, before people are in your world by giving you the email and starting to build the relationship with you, they say, "Woah, that seems really expensive." But once they're in your funnel, once they're getting to know you, then that doesn't seem, it doesn't seem expensive. And they kind of forget that, yeah, well, hey, I could actually look and see what what what I could get as far as a piano course for $10. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:19] Yeah. I didn't I was having trouble kind of applying this one, this base rate neglect, which is I think the last one that he mentioned. I didn't quite know where you're going with it because you brought a popcorn example. And then and then you say, well, this is why we need funnels. Jacques Hopkins: [00:14:34] Like I'm trying to figure out exactly how to apply this to course creators. And I thought where we were going is, is the fact that I've got my $97 option and it is just a book and people do tell me that it's like I'm not going to pay $97 for just a book. That's fine. You're probably not going to be a good, a good customer for me anyway. But that is, that is higher price for just like for text. Right. But I want it higher price because everything that I offer on on Piano In 21 Days is higher priced. Is that a fair application? David Kroshe: [00:15:05] Yes, I think so. But just conceptually, you, you have decided that you're a premium. You are offering a premium product. You know, you're driven to transform people's lives. And so you're comfortable with charging more. And I think that, that that just highlights, you know, yes, once people are in your world, in general, they're experiencing that relationship. And so they tend to just forget that, yes, they could probably find a $20 piano course or a $10 piano course. And they just say, "I really enjoy this guy's style. And I can see that that it's a premium product and I can see all the testimonials." So just being comfortable with with having a higher end option. Jacques Hopkins: [00:15:49] Very cool. David Kroshe: [00:15:50] So before we got into Neil Patel's article, the other thing I wanted to ask you about, what would you think about one price with an order bump? What is your feelings and emotions about order bumps? Jacques Hopkins: [00:16:02] I do like order bumps. I don't, because I don't think they're very aggressive, but they are effective, right? I don't. I like order bumps way more than like, like OTOs, right? One-time-offers. Upsells. Downsells. Right? When, when you fill out an order form and then you click buy and then you don't and then the next page is not, "Hey, successful! Thank you! Welcome!" It's, "Wait! Add this super special deal to your cart!" Right. I've never done that. I've just there's always feel just really slimy to me for the most part. I mean, there's ways you could probably do it more effectively than others. But I do like the order bumps, which is just a little checkbox at the bottom of the order form. It's like, "Hey, you can add this to your cart." And so for all of my packages, each one actually does have an order bump associated with it. And a fair amount of people do do select that. So I am a fan of order bumps. David Kroshe: [00:16:55] Wait, so you said there's the order bump is on the main sales page and then upsell is like the second, the follow up page is how you defined it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:17:04] Yes, yeah. Definition of an order bump is on the main order form page and it's just like a little, usually there, it's a, it's a rectangular section that has a dotted line around it. I'm not sure why, but that's kind of usually what it looks like. That is what an order bump is. It just bumps up the amount of the order a little bit, all on the same page. [00:17:25] OK, Well, yeah. And so interestingly, there was a discussion just just this week in the Facebook group, your Online Course Community. And this lady, she joined your Online Course Accelerator, which, again, the steps to do that is that a person, all they have to do is get Expert Secrets, a free book, and then they have to pay for shipping. But you and I both know as soon as you say, yes, I want this free book, plus shipping. And then on the next page it says, "Hey, you know, would you like to join the One Funnel Away Challenge and just goes from there? Correct. Jacques Hopkins: [00:18:00] Yeah, if and that's one of the things, one of the reasons that offer is going to go away, because I'm sending you to somebody else's ecosystem and they... We've been over this. Like ClickFunnels, Russell Brunson, and they can be pretty aggressive in what they're trying to sell to you. Yeah, that that's how it works in this particular example that rub this person the wrong way. David Kroshe: [00:18:20] Well, I was thinking of a little analogy and just trying to reflect on these this idea of upsells or order bumps and and what feels actually helpful and what actually leaves the person with the bad taste in their mouth. And so personally, I'm really into biking. And I was thinking of a bike store analogy. So let's say that I walk into a bike store, I'd be buying a bike somewhere in the $3000-$4000 price range. So I go in there and the salesperson helps me find this like perfect bike and I get it all all zeroed in. OK, here's the color. I got the right size and and I'm like, yes, OK, I'm definitely getting this bike. Well, then let's say they say, OK, now you have to buy a chain. And again, I'm spending $3200 on a bike and they're like, I have to buy the chain again. The chain is something that's 100% essential to the bike. And so I'd be like this bike doesn't come with a chain. And so that would be kind of in this nickel and dime category. So if you're going to do the main offer and then you were going to do an upsell, you would want it to not feel like your nickel and diming the person. Some other offers, let's imagine that I say, yes, I want the $3200 bike and they say, OK, you know, we got the bike taken care of now you know, really good with this bike, is a Subaru. David Kroshe: [00:19:38] So let's go and pick you out a Subaru. Well again, if I just spent $3200 on a bike, I'm kind of probably going to be now. I'm not going to I'm not ready to spend $20,000 or $28,000 on a Subaru. And so some, that would kind of fall into the same category as the Expert Secrets. So you get your book for free plus $7.99. And then they're like, "Oh, while you're here, you know, buy this $300 product. And that would leave some people saying like "Woah, like this, all I signed up for was this, this relatively cheap book." The way that the bike store analogy could actually work right. Let's say I buy the bike so I got everything picked out on the bike and then the salesperson says, OK, just to let you know, when somebody buys a new bike, any of the other things that you want to pick out in the store just today while you buy your bike, we would offer a 25% discount. And so here's a list of the ten most common things that people pick out when they get their bikes. So a lot of people get a pair of shoes. A lot of people will get a kit, a helmet. David Kroshe: [00:20:40] And basically, you know, if anything on this list you don't already have, you can get 25% off today. And if I had just bought the book, I mean, I would definitely say, "Wow, this is like really great service because they're offering me this really exceptional deal." And so with your new, with your new course offerings, I was reflecting that you could actually, you have these two to three additional courses, and so let's say you were to say, you know, your whole sales pitch is to drive people to just one offer. A $697 for the course that you get the live teaching and the physical product for like $697. And then this would actually be in the upsell category. But let's say after they do that, then the next page they say, OK, just to let you know, a lot of people who do this do ultimately decide that they want to do Jazz In 21 or learn some jazz piano, they want to learn classical piano, and a lot of people want to be able to play the melodies as well. And so I've price these courses at $100 each. If you want to buy this today with your purchase of Piano In 21 Days, you can add it to your cart for just $150, and if you decide that you want one of these courses in the future, they're each $100 individually. But if you want to take advantage of this today, you know, go ahead and add that to your course or to your full purchase. And so to me, that would be an upsell that those are, in a sense, standalone courses. And I think most people would say that it would just feel synergistic. Not not like you're taking advantage of them. Jacques Hopkins: [00:22:22] Yeah, it's not like the chain example where it's obviously something you need. But in this example, personally, I would just rather have that be the order bump than actually go to another page. You've also got to really keep in mind your audience too, right? So ClickFunnels, you go through, you go through and you sign up for ClickFunnels or Expert Secrets like they're very heavy on the upsells and the downsells. But that's, that's, the type of audience that that is coming there. Right? For me, it's older people, not techie people. They just want to learn piano, right? So I don't, I don't want to do a lot of this marketing salesy stuff for for my particular audience. David Kroshe: [00:23:03] Right. I think, I mean, there's a rule of selling that a confused mind doesn't buy. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:09] When you're confused, you lose. David Kroshe: [00:23:10] Right. In in that bike example, like there's no way that they should be... While we're talking about the bike, they should not be talking to me about shoes. They should not be talking to me about a kid or a helmet. It's like our first priority is getting you the new bike. If you don't buy the bike, nothing else matters. And so that is the step-by-step process by the bike. OK, now, what else do you need to enjoy your bike? And so I think that's where the upsell lets you focus on one thing at a time. Jacques Hopkins: [00:23:44] Yeah, I think it, it could be done. It could be done right. I'm just from for my experience over the last about eight years now of selling an online course, I do like bumps a lot, but I've never successfully implemented an upsell that I felt good about. David Kroshe: [00:24:00] Sure. So yeah, the main thing I don't, I don't actually think that a bump is the right thing for you, but I think that, but I think there is a way to do it properly. And I do see those, those three courses, the Melody In 21 Days and the Jazz Piano In 21 Days and the Classical Piano In 21 Days... Those would make sense as a bump offer but... David Kroshe: [00:24:27] So ultimately, after talking about this, like what, what are you looking at doing for your pricing? Like, I definitely think that you're due, I mean, you've added so much additional value to your course. And so, do you really have things kind of zeroed in on what you're going to do? Jacques Hopkins: [00:24:41] So the problem is and this is, this is a good problem, but the problem is that my current pricing works, right? The three levels: $97, $297, $497. A couple of months ago, I experimented with a $997 package. Jacques Hopkins: [00:24:54] I shared some of those results. It was OK. It was mixed results. But my existing structure, it just works. Right? So something, something's going to have to work better for me to switch over to it. And the only true way to know that is a proper split test. And I just simply haven't done it, done that yet. We've put a lot of time and effort into this new platform, into updating the courses, and we're just, we're just not to that point yet. And so at this point, we're still, we're still humming along at our existing pricing model that's been working for us for years now. But this is going to be an ongoing conversation because I do plan to to test and optimize pricing overall as we are now in 2021 and hopefully by the end of 2021, I do have a kind of a newer pricing model that's outperforming what I'm doing now. At some point during this year in 2021, hopefully sooner rather than later, we will be testing, doing proper split testing on a new pricing model. And we, by the end of the year we could be right where we are now or we could find something that outperforms where we are now. But the only way to to know that is to do a proper split test. And until we have all the courses finished and all the new pages in the platform finished, ready, our beta testers have finished their testing. I'm not going to worry about that yet because what I have now is working. David Kroshe: [00:26:16] Got it. Jacques Hopkins: [00:26:18] Does that makes sense? David Kroshe: [00:26:19] Got it. Well, I definitely, one other lesson, I guess I would say is that prices do just go up. And so I did have this really wise older accountant come in as a patient at one or, yes, as a patient at one point. And he did tell me, you know, it gets in our heads as a business owner that it's scary to raise prices. And his advice was actually for business just to at the very least, raise their prices like 2% each year. And that's a way, just a smaller bump. So I guess. I guess if I was giving you advice, at the very least, I would think trying raising the book to $150 and then raising the two courses $100 each and seeing how that performs. But it's an interesting discussion, I enjoyed discussing this. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:03] Yeah, well, let me ask you this. Would you rather, would you rather try to sell one course for like $500 or $1,000? Or would you rather try to sell a hundred courses at like $10 each? David Kroshe: [00:27:15] I'd rather sell just the the smaller amount at a higher price point. Jacques Hopkins: [00:27:20] There's pros and cons to both, and that's one of the things that Phil Eibner and I discussed in this conversation it's really interesting, because as you know and as we've kind of talked about, I basically have one course, like, OK, I've got some bonuses and I, I have ways that I can split it up into three different pricing models. But for the most part, it's the Piano In 21 Days course and all my effort goes into to that. Phil, Phil is interesting, that's not his model at all. He is cranking out courses and it's working really well for him. I'm sure a lot of listeners know who Phil is already. I've had multiple people request me having him on. And it's funny because I've actually been trying to have him on for a while. If you're not familiar with Phil Eibner, he's, he's, he's huge on Udemy. He's been around there for a long time. I've actually taken a couple of courses from him on there. I bought a YouTube course years ago for $10 and I was just learning some some things on YouTube with my YouTube channel, you know, thumbnails, proper descriptions and titles, and and even some tips on filming and lighting and so on. And Phil was the instructor on that course, but I reached out to him a couple of years ago, actually, about coming on the podcast, because he's just, he's such a big time course creator. And the timing just never really worked out he was having twins, you know, growing a family and whatnot. And so fortunately, we finally made it happen. But we're both course creators. Phil and I are both course creators. But take a completely different approach and I don't think either one is wrong. So I think that's, that's one of my big takeaways. And we'll obviously talk about it more. That was my way of kind of transitioning from the pricing discussion into this is conversation, as well. David Kroshe: [00:29:10] Right. And it's, you provide such a good contrast, you and Phil, a lot of things in common, but that pricing is probably the single biggest difference. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:19] There we go. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:20] All right. Well, let's, let's, let's play it for the audience and then we'll come back on the back end and talk about it. So without further ado, here's the full conversation between myself and Phil Eibner. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:31] What's up, Phil? Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Phil Eibner: [00:29:34] I am doing really well. Super excited to be here and make the time to get to know you, to share my story, advice or whatever else I can talk about. Jacques Hopkins: [00:29:46] That sounds great. You know, I got it. I got to tell you, you probably win the award for longest time between when I first reached out to you. And we're actually recording the podcast. Phil Eibner: [00:29:55] That's so funny. Did you look up when you first reached out to me? Because I can't remember when it was it was. Jacques Hopkins: [00:30:01] It was sometime in 2018. So it's definitely been over two years. And I know at the time when I first reach out you're like, "Yeah, I would like to look..." I don't know, you were either about to have twins or you just had twins, you were like, "It's not a good time man. Reach back out later." So I do. I want to start there like managing an online business, young family, I mean, I've got two, two young kids as well, three and five over here. How's that been going for you and how is that different than before having kids? Phil Eibner: [00:30:30] Well, yeah. So you know how hard it is to have kids and 2018 exactly was when we had the twins and then you probably reached out like, I don't know, like nine months ago, and I was like, actually, we're having another baby, so and we were like in the midst of this, like, pandemic, my schedule's crazy. So I'm sorry. Jacques. I'm going to have to delay another time. Phil Eibner: [00:30:53] And so we squeeze this in between our next kid, which I hope is not going to happen because my hands are full with the three kids. But it's definitely changed a lot. I think before having kids, I, you just don't know what it's like to have kids. You don't know how time consuming it can be. And just, I don't know if I was naïve, but I think in my mind I was like, OK, well, yeah, if you have kids or wherever you are in your life, just make time, you know, on the weekend to get started, make time in the evenings to get started. But now that I have kids, I'm like, wow, that would be really, really tough. Way tougher than it was for me, someone out of college, living by myself, I was working full-time when I started teaching online, but I had the evenings free, I had the weekends free to get started, and you're just not that drained. Just, my schedule right now is crazy, too. I'm working mostly in the evenings, and by the end of the day, it's tough to get on camera and to feel like I'm ready to turn it on and teach online. And it's tough, you know. And I think, again, naively in the beginning, I was like, OK, it's going to get easier, it's going to get easier. But the more I talk to parents, I don't know if it ever really gets easier. It might just get different. Jacques Hopkins: [00:32:23] Different. Phil Eibner: [00:32:24] Yeah. So I don't know. I work from home and the kids are here, my wife now, she quit her job or she got laid off actually when we first had kids. And so she's helping watch the kids a lot. But I don't know what your situation is with the kids. Do you have a set schedule or are you working from home or do you have like a studio outside? Jacques Hopkins: [00:32:48] No, this is this is my home. What you're seeing right now is my home. It's like all the way in the corner of our house. I try to get as far away from as possible. But, you know, both both my kids are now in school full-time. That is when we're not quarantining or something, because that has happened multiple times since we started back to school in August. But my wife, fortunately, is able to be a stay at home mom. She's got her own little business as well. But it's, it's not the main source of income for our family either. So she doesn't work full-time on it by any means. So this is the this is how we pay the bills, mostly Piano In 21 Days and Online Course Guy, Online Course Show is kind of a side hustle to that, mostly because I enjoy it so much. Being able to meet people like you, I probably, probably would have never met you if I just was the piano guy, even though, I mean, I've taken one of your courses, not that you don't have a million courses out there, but, you know, I've got like 80,000 YouTube subscribers on my Piano In 21 Days channel and back when I had like 5,000, I remember taking one of your YouTube marketing courses, which was awesome. I think you did it with, which I know you team up with people a lot, but Mike... Phil Eibner: [00:33:57] Mike & Lauren. Jacques Hopkins: [00:33:58] I think you did that one with Mike. Mike & Lauren. I've actually had Mike on the podcast. Phil Eibner: [00:34:01] Oh nice. Nice. Yeah, that was a while ago and I think we've likely updated that course once since you took it. Phil Eibner: [00:34:11] But yeah, that's I feel like we have a very similar path, because I obviously had my Online Course Masters podcast, as well. Phil Eibner: [00:34:19] But I've kind of taken a break from that just to focus on other things, but it's cool to see that you've continued with the podcast and I know I have a lot of friends...I know Jason Deon was just on your show and he was like, "OK, Jacques wants you to be on your show, his show. Can you get back to him again?" Like, OK. Jacques Hopkins: [00:34:40] Oh, Jason. He was like, you know, I can make a connection for you. I was like, don't worry, man. I've got, I've got the thread open. He's just, we just got to find time. Yeah, but yeah, as far as kids go, man, it's crazy how much you take that for granted. What it's like before, like you just like you said, you never really know. And I just you know, for people listening to this that don't have kids yet, it's like, what are you waiting for? Like, get on it. I wish I could go back before kids. It's not that I don't love my kids, but I just, all that time I would have had and like to put even more into the business then so that I could focus less on the business and more on the kids now that they exist. But you'll never really know. You got to experience it to know. Phil Eibner: [00:35:19] Now, it's like you look back on your life... I look back and I don't think I have like, major regrets. But I think, man, when I didn't have kids, why didn't I just do all the stuff that I wanted to do, like on the weekend, go on trips, go, you know, now I'm like, oh, I wish I could go backpacking or camping with my friends or by myself. And I'm like, well, I could have done that before, but I just didn't. And it's just, yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I'll look back on this time and be like, why didn't I do this or that? So it's, it's tough. I think once the kids are in school, that will open up a little bit of time. But at the same time, what am I complaining about? I am working from home making a great living. I can be here for my kids. And that was that was honestly the goal when I started, was figuring out a way that I could, once we did have kids. Be at home with them and to be able to decide, OK, do I want to work these hours or later? I grew up with my dad just working a normal job, like 99% of kids and, you know, just wanting him to be home more. He had a long commute and growing up I was like, man, I want something different. And so, yeah, I'm very fortunate to to be here in the situation. I can't really complain at all. Jacques Hopkins: [00:36:42] Yes. I mean, same for me, the freedom, if there's one word, like just the freedom of not having a boss, being able to to call the shots and do things, cool things is, is what really was the allure to have an online business and specifically an online course for me. Is there something that really jumps out at you is like something really cool, like one of your favorite things that you've been able to do, whether it is with your family or not, as a result of you getting into this line of work? Phil Eibner: [00:37:13] I think, the I mean, there's... Just like the freedom, like you said, is like awesome and not having to ask for time off from work to go on vacations and to be able to go on, be fortunate to be able to take the family to Hawaii for a week or a couple of weeks last year. That was really fun. We're not traveling right now, obviously, during the pandemic. But travel has always been something that I've really loved. I'm not like a travel influencer who wants to go travel full-time or work as a digital nomad in Thailand or anything crazy like that. But I love traveling. I think the one thing that changed my life the most because of online courses was being able to pay off my student loans rather quickly. I graduated with $100,000 in student loan debt, which is really crazy. It's crazy that that's normal, though, for a lot of people. But I just remember going to sleep every night after graduation, just like stressed like with that weight on my shoulder. And I have friends who are in somewhat similar situations and they can just like just like live their life without worrying about it. But I would go to bed every night just just worried and stressed about that. And so, since college, I was always looking for ways, extra ways to make money, started doing wedding videography, doing side video projects. But it wasn't till creating online classes and income started to multiply and ramp up over the first few years that I just decided to go full force with paying off the student loan debt. And so we did that in four years or so after school, which is again really fortunate, very lucky to have been able to do that. But since then, I feel like my life just like, just haven't been as stressed. And anyone with debt or obligations like that knows how stressful and how draining that can be. But that's probably the best thing. Jacques Hopkins: [00:39:29] Yeah. I mean, we were talking about taking things for granted, like before kids. But this is this is the same thing in terms of when you're like 18, 19 years old, you don't understand what it means to have $100,000 in debt like that. I mean, that's, that's a mortgage. You know, it's crazy. Phil Eibner: [00:39:44] I went to school, you know, and love my parents. And who knows, they'll they'll listen to this. And they don't have any other kids that are going to go into school. But their, their opinion was like a lot of people was like, oh, it's going to work out. And they just lived with their, their debts as well. Mortgages, credit card debt, like a lot of people. And it was just like, oh well, yeah, just go to the school you want and it's going to work out. And thankfully it did work out, but I don't know if that was like that was like just like the most optimistic view of going into the school where I was going to be taking out $20-30,000 in loans every year. So I'm so thankful that it worked out. My parents did raise me to be a hard worker and be creative and dedicated. So I thank them for that. But yeah, just yeah, you just don't know what it's like. So anybody going into school, I would suggest trying to be a little bit more financially smart, going to community college first and and then also trying side hustles like this and maybe work. You do your own thing. It's, it's worked out for the both of us pretty well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:40:58] Yeah. Creating something of your own to make money that you don't necessarily need a college degree for, but also taking online courses or certifications as a different path versus a normal undergraduate degree. And by the way, I mean, you're definitely the outlier. When you said once you graduated like you had trouble sleeping, like you just you were constantly thinking about the debt. I think that's not normal. Like even when you do graduate, you still don't fully understand the negative impact that much debt can have. And I could talk probably a long time about all the problems with that. That's that just I'm not a fan of debt at all. And the crazy amount that people end up having to spend for a college education and then and a lot of cases not even ending up with job in that field. What was your major and what was that job that you ended up getting? Phil Eibner: [00:41:49] Yeah, so I felt I studied Film and Television, again, like, OK, you're going to go to school and get $100,000 in debt and come out with like a Film major. And I don't, I don't think that's like, the best idea. But I always focused on more the digital media, new sort of online video compared to the like, Hollywood style of film production. So now I look back and I'm like, wow, that was actually a pretty good skill to have. It is this good skill to have. Everyone needs online video and that's the way of the future. And so out of school, I was just looking for anybody that would hire me full-time because I didn't have the luxury of just trying to do the freelance thing as a film creative, which a lot of people can can try to do that to break into the industry. But my first couple of full-time jobs were actually at colleges. One was like a tiny school down in Southern California, a tech school in their C0ommunications Department. And then I moved up to Berkeley when my wife was getting her master's degree. And I got a job at UC Berkeley again in there, sort of like Media Communications Department. So putting use, being able to use my skills that I learned in school and making videos. And also that's when I discovered online education through both of those jobs because both of those schools were involved with creating their own online classes. So that was when I discovered Udemy and first started making my own online courses. Jacques Hopkins: [00:43:32] Give me an idea of timeframe, when was this when you discovered that world of online courses? Phil Eibner: [00:43:36] My first course came out in October of 2012, and so it was probably a few months before that when I landed on the Udemy.com website as part of researching for my job, just looking at other platforms, trying to, you know, show my boss like what platforms are out there. What could our schools platform look like? It's like, man, this is cool. Udemy can take all these lessons. You have a notes section and all is kind of cool stuff. And then I just realize, wow, you could teach your own online classes. That's cool. At that time I had discovered Pat Flynn and he had written his eBook, that was like his big claim to fame back then with Smart Passive Income was his, his eBooks. And so my idea before creating an online course was actually to write a an eBook. And I had this idea of The Diary of a Film Student and I had outlined a bunch of it. I had written a bunch of the journals through college. And my idea was I was going to put this together in this eBook for for people wanting to go to film school, like just this story of what film school was like. But then I found out about online courses and kind of jumped over to that, that type of content. And I never, I never finished that. But I think the online courses worked out. Jacques Hopkins: [00:44:57] Yeah, it's it seems to be. We got started around the same time. I was about 2013 and certainly was a big fan and still am of Pat Flynn. And I know the eBook was like that architecture exam, that the lead exam, he sold it for maybe $100, probably less than that, but was bringing in like 20 grand a month. So you're hearing that and it's, it's like, wow, what could I write an eBook on? And that's what I heard. And I remember writing my eBook like, I, that's, that's where I actually started was, the first thing I did for my course was I wrote the book version, like the eBook version, knowing all the while that I was going to sell that. And an online course. kind of have two tiers. And I've actually done that ever since. I even to this day, you can buy the the eBook version or the online course. Now I have an even more premium version of that, but I totally did it like that. That message of the eBook really resonating. So for you, you didn't stick with that eBook approach and the only course you jumped full force ahead into online courses. Now, how many how, many courses have you created and what was that first one that you created? Phil Eibner: [00:46:09] And I should have come up with the number. All I know is that if you go to my Udemy profile, I have over 100 courses under my brand now, that includes, like you mentioned early on, that I do a lot of partnership. So I would say now seventy-five or more percent of my courses are partnerships, and that could be where I am on camera helping teach the topic or it could be where I'm... It's a topic that I don't know myself, so I'm more the producer behind the class giving advice to the instructor, figuring out how to structure it, what kind of things to add to the course to make it better, helping to write all the copy, sell it, promote it, all of that kind of stuff. And then some of the courses are just translations of the courses, so, for example, our big photography master class now we have in Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Mandarin, so you'll see over 100 courses, but different, unique courses, I think it's probably, it still is up there. It's probably over 70-75 courses that we've created and I've, put I've actually unpublished quite a few as well, so, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:47:27] You breaking all kinds of records, Phil. I think that might be a record for this podcast, too. Over, over 160 episodes in and I don't think anybody's said they've hit the three figure mark as far as quantity of courses, that's, that's quite impressive. But, but, but an interesting business model, too, because, like you said, you're not necessarily the face or the main driver behind all of them, but you find these great partnerships. Phil Eibner: [00:47:49] Yeah. And I think the my strength or what I figured out was most of my income still comes from the courses on Udemy and to have a lot of success on Udemy and to make a decent income. Most people need to have a handful of courses. And with Udemy you're not going to, unless you have like a knock out course, there again, like maybe a handful of people that can have one course on Udemy and make it a decent income. Most people need a series of courses and I just kind of expanded upon that and just kept making courses that have courses in different buckets from photography to video production, expanding into design and art now, and then some business and marketing as well. Jacques Hopkins: [00:48:38] So let's let's get into Udemy a little bit. I've only dipped my toe in the water, and I think that was based on Jeremy Deegan's recommendation, who I know you know well. He's he's been on the podcast before. And he he mentioned it could possibly be like a legion tactic as well. I've since I've since removed that. It didn't work as well as I was necessarily hoping, but also wanted to just check out Udemy. At this point you... And by the way, Jason Deon, Scott Duffy, like big Udemy guys I've talked to and know the pros and cons of it. Do you have courses elsewhere or just on Udemy at this point? Phil Eibner: [00:49:14] Yeah. And I forgot to mention my very first course was a video editing course in Final Cut Pro. You had asked that. Jacques Hopkins: [00:49:20] Cool, OK. Phil Eibner: [00:49:21] And that one's still make some sales actually. But... Jacques Hopkins: [00:49:25] Nice. Phil Eibner: [00:49:25] I have put my courses on Udemy. I put most of my courses on Skillshare as well and I do have my courses hosted on my own school using Teachable. The way I market that course, those courses, is as a membership, though, so you can buy my courses on my own platform and get access to all 100 plus courses for $12 a month, or if you want to go individual you can get them on... I usually drive people to to Udemy. And then I have them on several other platforms as well. Smaller platforms, StackCommerce promotes my courses. I have a couple of courses on Fiverr's new platform; I think it's learn.fiverr. But yeah, that's the beauty of the having. Putting them on platforms that don't require exclusivity is being able to put them everywhere. And so every little course is a little stream of income itself. And on every platform it's a different stream of income. So I feel like it's a pretty solid business model. Of course, though, there's that constant debate of, OK, do you want to sign up for more premium price on your own platform or or the marketplace platforms like Udemy and I always say, if you have an audience and you really feel like your course is you want to charge more and you can build the funnels and you could drive the traffic, you have put it on your own platform and have control of the entire process. Phil Eibner: [00:51:01] But if you're just getting started out and you don't have any audience, it's going to be really hard to sell a class. Like you can't just put it on a website and hope that someone finds it in a Google search. That's just not going to happen nowadays. You either have to do all of the work to build up an audience and... I mean, maybe you can use things like paid advertising to drive traffic and lead markets and all that... Lead magnets, but that's a lot of work and effort. And it costs costs money up front to to do that. I think for people just getting started out, Udemy and Skillshare and these platforms still are very viable place to put your courses, see how it goes, and use the power of the marketplace to to sell your classes, the name of the game with the marketplace is ranking well in the search. So all of these platforms are basically search engines. Most of them, the search results are based off of good reviews, number of students, how engaging in classes, how much of a class that someone watches. So SEO and your course title, subtitle, description. I mean, we could dive into all of that, but with a marketplace, the name of the game is getting your your course ranking well and if you can do that, that's when you start to make money on these platforms. Jacques Hopkins: [00:52:25] Yeah. There's a quote that from Jason Deon that I remember that really jumps out at me said, you know, if you want to go with the marketplace route, the reason you would do that, because here's the quote: "They handle the marketing, you handle the content." Right? So so it falls right in line with what you're saying. If you're just starting out, you don't have an audience yet, you know, if you want these guys to handle the marketing and you just focus on an awesome course, could be the way to go. If I could push back on that a little bit. What would you say to the person that that takes that advice? They put a course out there, but then it never ranks on the first page and they really don't make any sales like should they just give up or what would you recommend they do next? Phil Eibner: [00:53:07] I think nowadays it's it is harder to... Unless it's like a topic that just doesn't have many courses, which isn't really the case anymore on a platform like Udemy, there is a lot of competition. So you will have to put in some initial work to drive some traffic to a course on Udemy to get that in those initial reviews, that initial juice, that SEO juice to to try to rank it, so maybe you do have to start a YouTube channel and start driving traffic to Udemy through YouTube, start a website, blog, drive traffic back to the courses on Udemy put out the course for free and build up an email list. Either... You can't do that really technically on Udemy, but putting out a course for free on your own platform or or even putting it out for free on Udemy just to get your name out there and you can use that as sort of a lead generation. You mentioned that something that Jeremy Deegan mentioned, you can put out a free course on Udemy, at the end of a course on Udemy, you can drive people to your email list. So that's why I do continue to drive traffic to my courses on Udemy. I mean, some people would be like, well, why don't you on all of your social media, YouTube, your website, why don't you just focus on sending traffic back to your own platform? But I continue to drive traffic whenever I launch a course and long term I drive my own traffic back to Udemy, because that traffic just helps helps those courses rank rank higher. And that's going to... I've just seen the power. You can make a lot of money on Udemy if you if you rank well. Phil Eibner: [00:55:06] Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jacques Hopkins: [00:55:10] Well, clearly you can, I mean, you've been very successful with me. I've mentioned a lot of other people have and there's a there's a lot of people that have been very successful with it. And I find it interesting when you can find a way to make both work, as Jason has and as you have in your model is interesting where it's like, hey, if you want to buy an individual course for me, then go over here, go to Udemy, pay ten bucks for it, or you can come over here to my site and it's a membership. So is it just like a monthly fee and then they get access to all your courses? Is that how it works? Phil Eibner: [00:55:42] Yeah, that's basically it. I think the thing that I learned early on is you can't try to do both if it's exactly the same offering. You can't. It's not going to work if I'm trying to sell my courses on my own platform individually for, you know, 15, 20 bucks and then on Udemy, it's 15, 20 bucks. At that point, I would have to decide, am I going to drive my traffic to one or the other? But if you have either, like me, a membership where it's simply just. Access to all of my courses and people, because I have enough courses to keep it interesting for people that has worked, if you don't have a ton of courses, I would say in a membership model you would need to add. Some kind of bonus to keep those people in your membership, maybe its monthly updates, maybe it's a monthly coaching call or office hours or things like that where they get extra access to you. But I don't think the monthly recurring sort of membership model works unless you have just enough content to keep it interesting or you're adding content to it. And so, yeah, or like what Jason does is he has a more premium offering so he doesn't do the monthly membership. But if you have more premium offerings, he does things like. Yeah. Study vouchers for some of the certification vouchers and things like that guarantees that you'll pass your certification, those kinds of things that you can offer off of you. To me, that is what works for someone like Jason. So, yeah, it's got to be something a different offering. I still do. I know a lot of people, though, that just they don't host on their own platform and they just sell on Udemy. Phil Eibner: [00:57:26] And that's where their entire businesses and I mean, I think that's viable. Phil Eibner: [00:57:33] In the beginning, I thought, oh, man, Udemy, who knows when you miss what's going to happen with Udemy in the next couple of years. And I always have that mindset of kind of like, well, this has been a good run and maybe in a couple of years Udemy is going to disappear. But I don't know. I've been doing it for eight years now and Udemy has continued to grow. And unless they do like an IPO and someone buys it out and says, oh, we're just going to shut this down or convert it to something crazy, we're only going to hire like professional actors and people to teach these classes, I have confidence that Udemy is going to be here for the long run, but it's always nice to have that backup. And so it's nice for me to have my members on my teach school that, hey, if Udemy disappeared, I would be fine. I mean, I would take a dramatic cut to my income, but I could probably grow it on my own platform and I'd be fine for a while anyways. Jacques Hopkins: [00:58:33] So I just I just went to your website, just kind of see how you're positioning the membership itself. It's VideoSchool.com, right? And at the top says learn creative skills, 90 plus courses and thousands of hours of lessons. Learn video, photography, art, design, business and more. Unlimited access for $12. So that's to me, that's almost insinuating I could pay $12 one time and get all of this. But is it a $12 per month membership. Phil Eibner: [00:59:01] Yeah. Yeah. And I have to update that to be over 100 courses. But yes it's you get an unlimited access for $12. Right? But then yeah. You've got to pay every month to keep that unlimited access, so... Jacques Hopkins: [00:59:13] Which is still insanely cheap, like, it's still an insanely good deal. [00:59:17] Yeah. I think it makes sense for a lot of people who, who end up liking a lot of my courses and rather than deciding if they want to pay every time I launch a new course, which we are continuing to launch new courses every month or so, so you can also pay instead of the monthly fee, you can do like a year. We have a yearly option or a lifetime option. And so during our Black Friday sale, we do it once a year discount. The only time I discount our membership is during Black Friday, which just happened. But people take me up on that lifetime offer offer because they get access to all of our future courses as well for that one fee. And I think for me, it's made sense. I'm not someone who, like, runs the numbers specifically, but I have a sense that the lifetime value of a typical customer of mine is, I don't know, likely less than what they're going to... On Udemy... Let me let me back up. So the lifetime value of a customer on Udemy, who knows what it's going to be, but it would take a lot, of course sales for me to make $100 on Udemy from an individual person. So if someone can sign up for my lifetime offer on my site for $250, then I think it's they're getting a good, good offer. It's cheaper than they would to have to pay for individual courses. But I'm also getting a lot more than I would probably make if they were buying my courses on Udemy, if that makes sense. So I feel like it's a pretty good deal for for everyone. Jacques Hopkins: [01:00:53] Yeah, one of the buzzwords the past few years is high ticket. And you've got your selling over 100 courses. I can get it all for $250. Right. Some people are selling single courses for like $10,000. Like, what are your thoughts on high ticket versus low ticket? Phil Eibner: [01:01:13] I've tried the high ticket approach and I've done it with Online Course Masters, the podcast and the brand. It was just so much work for me to put in the time and effort to feel like I was delivering on that price. And it was... We were charging we did everything between like $300 and $500. So it wasn't even close to that $10,000 price. I honestly don't know how. I think a lot of people who charge $10,000, they just have either the confidence to be on a charge that. I don't know if, like any course is really that valuable, unless it truly is helping someone make that money in return. It's helping them to to grow and their careers start their own business. But there's so many people out there that sell courses like that that it really is just a scam. And there's... Most people who go through that, those kinds of courses aren't going to make that money. So high ticket sounds nice, but it's a lot, it's a lot of work to to deliver on that promise. And for me, someone just personally, it's it's hard for me to, like, feel comfortable even getting close to th
114 minutes | 2 months ago
163: Should You Hire Someone to Help OPERATE Your Online Course Biz? (Featuring Natalie Gingrich)
I can vouch firsthand for the awesome course that today’s guest created: not because I took her course myself, but because of the impact her resources have had on my team! Natalie Gingrich has an inspiring story to share about her online course journey and why she is so passionate about all things operations. We’re talking legacy, certification, and so much more. Enjoy! “Knowing the transformation I was able to make… all came back to a skill set. And I knew I could apply that.” – Natalie Gingrich In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) David and I discuss our duo name and podcast roles (3:00) The theme of today’s episode (6:35) David’s business operations (7:47) An example of recent changes to my business workflow (10:15) Introducing Natalie and her take on operations (13:08) Thinking about systems and operations versus lead generation and funnels (15:26) Where Natalie focuses her business offerings and how she delivers her training (18:43) Trusting and hiring other people to teach (21:21) Thinking about how to bring in qualified trainers (24:51) How Natalie and her team have created growth while maintaining a personal feel (29:16) Why she offers certification (35:19) “How do I find somebody who does this?” (39:39) What I’m appreciating about having my own OBM (40:16) Why certification isn’t an issue for my courses (40:40) How Natalie facilitates her program (42:57) OBM vs. DOO (45:57) Natalie’s recommendations on structure (51:25) What if you don’t want to hire a long-term OBM? (53:44) Visionaries vs. implementers (55:55) My history with project management software (57:19) Full-time vs. part-time OBM’s (1:00:42) Natalie’s “why” story (1:09:18) Talking legacy (1:10:42) The difference between operations roles in business (1:13:30) Where to find Natalie’s resources online (1:14:33) Why David and I appreciate operations-minded people (1:16:00) Getting into the weeds on how Natalie runs her program (1:19:13) Bringing on more instructors and offering live training (1:22:02) High vs. low touch-point choices (1:23:58) The hiring process for virtual employees or contractors (1:29:31) Gauging people’s long-term compatibility with your business (1:30:59) The likeability factor (1:36:10) David’s story about personality types (1:39:52) The Wonderlic test and other types of verification (1:47:45) “Wounded boyfriend expectations” (1:50:44) The importance of documenting standard operating procedures (1:53:07) Wrapping up and teasing next week’s interview That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Active Campaign Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Natalie’s website Resources and Recommendations: By the Book podcast Happier podcast Voxer Fix This First Loom Life as Paper “Favorite Things” printable Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
121 minutes | 2 months ago
162: From MTV Show to YouTube Star to Course Creator (Featuring Mike Greenfield)
Welcome to the very first episode of the year! Here’s to hoping that 2021 is one where the days are a bit brighter. And I’m feeling great about starting off the year with today’s interview: Mike Greenfield and I had a great conversation about how he’s helping home cooks up their game at a time when more people than ever are making their meals at home. “Don’t listen to anyone who says there is one perfect way… Trust yourself. Do it.” – Mike Greenfield In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) Gearing up for the new year with a book recommendation I’m very excited about (9:05) Our take on New Year resolutions (10:26) Reading goals (12:16) David’s first virtual lunch-and-learn and the importance of live feedback (15:50) Setting the stage for today’s interview (17:21) Introducing Mike Greenfield and thinking about modern “celebrity” (21:22) When courses came into the picture for Mike (24:55) His business structure and timeline (27:45) Talking sponsorships (30:10) How Mike created his first course (33:09) Mindset and why his approach resonates with me (37:55) Cook vs. chef (38:59) Launching and learning lessons along the way (45:22) Where he crossed paths with people who could help (47:07) Pricing and revenue decisions (50:49) Thoughts on social media (51:55) Mike’s upcoming launch (54:14) Why I’m interested in his course offerings (57:12) What he’s doing differently this time (59:37) Funnels and email lists (1:02:46) Talking Active Campaign (1:03:53) Teams and evolving work responsibilities (1:08:43) Our roles as course creators (1:13:04) Risk and entrepreneurship (1:16:12) The one thing that made the biggest difference for my business (1:18:24) Talking parenting, balance, and creating space for breaks (1:21:47) Being in the right place at the right time (1:24:40) Mike’s advice for new and aspiring course creators (1:26:46) License to do things (1:28:11) Where to find Mike outside of YouTube (1:28:43) Why I appreciate hearing David’s perspective on interviews (1:29:22) Who gets a pass on marketing? (1:30:36) Building assets (1:32:26) Am I still doing personalized coaching? (1:34:14) YouTube revenue (1:35:51) The best way to contact celebrities (1:37:35) Takeaways from Social Dilemma (1:39:43) Transitioning a community from one platform to another (1:43:24) A rabbit hole that led David to my long-defunct music podcast (1:48:48) Our potluck dishes of choice (1:50:02) Why I now have a full-time transcriptionist (1:52:54) Email lists, funnels, and design inspiration (1:56:02) Enjoying different stages of life and business + teasing for an upcoming episode (1:58:57) Wrapping up with how you can help the podcast That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Active Campaign Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Mike’s website Resources and Recommendations: From 6 to 7 Figures E-Myth Revisited 2X Business Coaching The 12-Week Year The 90-Day Life Think and Grow Rich Traction Clockwork 12 Rules for Life Love You Forever Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
67 minutes | 2 months ago
161: What Online Course Platform I’m Moving To (Plus a Look at ALL The Top Online Course Platforms For 2021)
Today, on our 49th episode of 2020, it’s finally time: I’m ready to reveal exactly what platform I’m moving my piano course to! This has been a topic of much debate and it definitely took me some time to sort through my options. So many course platforms exist, old and new, and there are pros and cons to each. But I’m happy with my choice, and had a great time discussing this journey with David on our final episode of the year. “It’s overwhelming, but I really wanted to find the best option for me and my students.” – Jacques Hopkins In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) Setting the stage for today’s topic and looking back on another year of podcasting (3:06) Why my platform switch is not a one-size-fits-all decision (4:52) My history (and beef) with course platforms so far (8:44) Talking pros and cons of ClickFunnels (13:42) The three types of online course platforms (17:04) Top features I was searching for (20:05) A few disclaimers (21:30) Some creative reveal ideas courtesy of David (24:31) The top two contenders and why I chose one over the other (29:29) Why I’m happy with my customization and community options for my new platform (31:52) The announcement that tipped the scales for me (33:54) Pros and cons of my choice (37:48) Apps, Apple, and transition (39:15) What I’ve said no to – and why (47:00) Does price reflect features? (48:08) Best choices for different categories (54:23) Disclaimers and slogans (1:02:15) Reviewing options and a recommendation (1:05:31) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Active Campaign Trial Deadline Funnel Trial Thinkific Trial BossBuddy Trial LearnDash Trial Mighty Networks Trial MembersPro Trial Xperiencify Trial Win of the Week Resources and Recommendations: Expert Secrets Dotcom Secrets Sensei WooCommerce OptimizePress Wistia Udemy Skillshare Kajabi Thinkific LearnDash LifterLMS Circle Mighty Networks BuddyBoss Teachable New Zenler Podia Xperiencify EverWebinar Mastermind Kartra 10XPro Disciple MembersPRO Jumi The Social Dilemma Episode 145 Episode 146 Episode 154 Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins  00:02 Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing. But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the Online Course Show.   Jacques Hopkins  00:32 And off we go, welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins, and we have our cohost, what's going on Dr.K.?   David Krohse  00:40 Oh, I'm sitting here, shivering in anticipation to find out which course platform you went with.   Jacques Hopkins  00:47 Well, that's what this is about. This is about which course platform that I've chosen. Plus, just an honest, hopefully honest, and unbiased review of a lot of the options out there because there's a reason there's so many options out there and no one is right for everybody. And that's what we're getting into today. This is also I don't know, if you're aware, the very last episode of 2020.   David Krohse  01:07 Excellent!   Jacques Hopkins  01:07 Episode 161 here. And I went back and looked, and it will be our 49th episode of the year.   David Krohse  01:15 Wow!   Jacques Hopkins  01:15 So, we missed three. We missed three, but 49 is not bad. I was hoping to get to 52.   David Krohse  01:21 That's pretty great.   Jacques Hopkins  01:22 But there were three times throughout the year where we just could not get out a weekly episode, but I feel very good about going into 2021, compared to 2020. My business is just in such a better place. The team is much bigger and better than it ever has been, and I feel pretty good about that 52 episodes going into 2021.   David Krohse  01:45 Fun! But yeah, I think that I can speak for all the listeners that it's just fun to follow on your journey.   Jacques Hopkins  01:49 Man, I appreciate that so much. And among those episodes, there's been several where you kind of came to the table with some awesome information as well. So, it's been a lot of fun. In this particular episode, we are talking about online course platforms. So, here's the plan; and I know you didn't... I didn't share any of this with you ahead of time, so stop me at any point, ask questions, you be the voice of the audience throughout this presentation, throughout this discussion.   Jacques Hopkins  02:16 So, my plan is this: I want to talk about kind of my history as it goes with course platforms - where I started, where I've been, where I am now and why I've been considering changing which course platform I'm on. I'm going to talk about all the different options that are out there. I'll tell you what I've picked and why that is. I'm going to try to be as unbiased as possible as we go through this process, right? When I get a, you know, a kickback from ClickFunnels - when you sign up for ClickFunnels - that causes me to be a little unbiased, and I acknowledge that. So, I'm going to do my best to take out any bias, not skew these opinions based on how good somebody's affiliate program is or not, and so on. You can stop me if you feel like I'm being biased in any way.   Jacques Hopkins  03:08 Also want to mention that what platform you pick is not the most important thing here. This is not the be-all-end-all that's going to define your success. What's more important is the content that you put out there, the overall experience you're providing for your students, the hopefully transformative nature of what we're doing - I've talked about it many times, but transformation over information - and at the end of the day actual student results. To me, that's the most important thing. And I think no matter which platform I pick, because there's a lot of good ones out there, I could make my course and courses successful, my students successful. Is that a fair disclaimer?   David Krohse  03:50 That sounds great.   Jacques Hopkins  03:51 And then we're going to look into what platform might be... once I tell you which one mine is and go through some of the big ones out there, we'll go over which platform might be right for you, the listener out there, depending on your needs, and your students’ needs and so on, and then I kind of want to wrap it up; I want to look at the USP - Unique Selling Proposition - of each one. And I want to go through this exercise where we actually go to the website of each of these platforms that I looked into and see what's their pitch, what makes them different. You know, I really encourage listeners to read the book Expert Secrets by Russell Brunson, and one of the big messages in there is you want to give your audience and your students a "new" opportunity, not an "improvement" opportunity. So, with all these different course platforms out there, are any truly like unique and trying to do something that others are not, or they all just kind of the same thing? You know?   Jacques Hopkins  04:48 So that's my plan. Does that sound good?   David Krohse  04:50 That sounds great.   Jacques Hopkins  04:51 So, we'll start with my history with course platforms. So, I started Piano In 21 Days in 2013, and as you know, David, it wasn't all just rainbows and butterflies, there was a lot of obstacles, especially at first. It took me about eight months to go from idea to actual launch of my course. Most people heard my story by now I didn't actually make a sale that first day. Made one sale the next day and it was like one of the happiest moments of my life. Even though I only made one sale. It was like 100 bucks but for the first time, somebody had actually paid me money that wasn't like my paycheck for my job. It was amazing.   Jacques Hopkins  05:22 So, one of the biggest obstacles in 2013 was simply the course platform, like I could not figure out having content behind a kind of a paywall, and then having users have a username and password. And that sounds crazy in late 2020, because of all the platforms out there. I mean, there's hundreds...   David Krohse  05:45 Right.   Jacques Hopkins  05:45 There are hundreds of options out there. Whereas in 2013, there were very few options out there. And most of the ones we're going to talk about today didn't even exist in 2013. So that was a huge, huge, huge headache. I ended up using something called Sensei, which was a WordPress plugin. It was actually a WooCommerce plugin, which is like the number one E-commerce plugin for WordPress. And then they have this E-learning plugin as well called Sensei. It wasn't great. There were things I just at the end of the day couldn't figure out. And when I was going to launch, I realized that there was like, I don't remember specifically what it was, but there was something about it that just wasn't going to work. And so, I had to scramble at the last minute and find something else. I ended up using something called Optimize Press. And then their membership plugin, which is what allows you to have like, username, password, have certain pages that you can't get to unless you're logged in - that part of it was called Optimized Member. That's what I used for a couple of years, was Optimized press,   Optimized Member. That was pretty good. Pretty good. I think it's still around, but it's not near as popular as it was back then.   Jacques Hopkins  06:56 And then, in about 2016 a friend of mine was like, "Hey, have you read DotCom Secrets, this book, it's pretty awesome. It talks all about funnels and stuff." And I was like "No," but it was a guy that I trusted. In fact, I think his name is Dean Dwyer. I think the first person I ever interviewed on this podcast way back, I want to say like Episode 16, possibly. And so, I picked up the book and it was fascinating just learning about all these different types of funnels. And of course, I realized now like the book itself was a funnel and it makes you really want to sign up for ClickFunnels. So, that's when I switched over from Optimized Press to ClickFunnels. And it was great, because I could easily make funnels, I was making all these cool funnels, and it was a lot easier than in Optimized Press. And it was just a bonus that you could also host your membership, your course inside of ClickFunnels. So, this is 2016. And I moved everything over to ClickFunnels. And I liked it so much, I even moved my whole website over to there: my homepage, my about page, my FAQ, and like my whole business, other than emails was over in ClickFunnels for a couple of years. And I realized that email was not what ClickFunnels did best, so I pulled that out and put that on ActiveCampaign, which I absolutely love.   Jacques Hopkins  08:18 But ever since then, since 2016, my funnels and my course - my piano course - have been on ClickFunnels. Even today, we haven't fully moved over yet to this new platform yet. So that's where we stand now. And that's how I ended up on ClickFunnels. And it served me well and I think it's still a great option for beginners. It's probably the simplest course platform that exists.   Jacques Hopkins  08:45 I was talking to Nate Dotson yesterday, and I told him which platform I picked. And I was asking him if he, you know, maybe wanted to try that or some of these other options out there. And he's like, "Man, I just, I love the simplicity of my course in ClickFunnels." So, it's still viable. In fact, David, your course, it's in ClickFunnels, is it not?   David Krohse  09:11 It is, yes.   Jacques Hopkins  09:12 Thoughts? You like it there?   David Krohse  09:14 Well, yeah, I mean, it's fine for my audience. I mean, again, there's the whole, there's all these factors: there's user-friendliness, but also your audience. So, let's say you're making a course specifically for graphic designers, you know, serving that course in ClickFunnels would be kind of like serving SpaghettiOs in a fine dining restaurant, right? It's like the aesthetics are not there. I mean, you can try to fancy it up, but at the end of the day, it doesn't have the user experience and the design elements that somebody that's making a01 course for graphic designer's needs.   Jacques Hopkins  09:45 Well, to piggyback off that example, imagine a course for course creators, and I've definitely gotten complaints from people inside of my programs on The Online Course Guy side of my business it's like, "Dude, this is not a great looking course, like there's not many features," and I get that. Whereas my piano students have never complained about it. It gets the job done for the most part, but they're probably also not as aware of the possibilities, as well. So, with just right at 6000 students now, like I said, ClickFunnels, the membership site there has served me well, but it's time to move on.   Jacques Hopkins  10:25 So, here's the reason. Here's what I don't like about ClickFunnels as a course platform. It's limited in its features. And for some people that's a plus, right? We were talking about that. There's lessons, there's sections, there's lessons, and then within each lesson, you can put some text and some downloads and videos, like it's the bare bones, minimal, viable course software you could possibly have. And for me at this point, that is a con. For some people, it could be a pro.   Jacques Hopkins  10:56 This drives me crazy. For some reason, the password reset function almost never works. So, if my students go to try to log in, and they forgot their password, or whatever, there's a forgot your password link and it just like, less than half of the time actually works and their support is no help. And maybe other people don't have that problem but that drives me crazy because students' success and their experience and everything, that's my number one factor here and if they can't even log into the course, that's a huge problem.   Jacques Hopkins  11:29 Next that I don't like is that they don't seem to be actively developing the platform. It seems like they made it and it's like, "Okay, now we're going to put our whole development team on funnels," which is fine. They're good at funnels. That's what they do best. And so, I'm going to continue to use ClickFunnels for its sales funnels, and probably move to something else for the course, because they're not actively developing the course platform, at least from what I see.   Jacques Hopkins  12:01 They don't have video hosting. A lot of these platforms we'll discuss today, you can actually upload your videos right to the platform, and you don't have to use like a Wistia or Vimeo to host your videos. So ClickFunnels doesn't have that.   Jacques Hopkins  12:12 It is not mobile optimized. A lot of people access my course from a mobile device. Let me give an example of a problem there: They have this big navigation, there's this big navigation menu on the left, and then your course content appears on the right. But if you access it from a phone, then the navigation is so wide that it fillls the width of the phone. And if you click on a lesson, the lesson information actually pops up below the navigation instead of on the right. Well, when you do that, and the content appears below the navigation, if somebody doesn't realize they need to scroll down, they think it's just not working. That has caused so many problems. Fortunately, I had a coder on Upwork code it to where anytime you click on a lesson, the screen automatically will scroll to the top of that lesson. So, it hasn't been a problem. But that's kind of ridiculous that I have to go get some custom code put in to make something that silly work.   Jacques Hopkins  13:11 And then there's no, so this kind of ties into limited features, but there's no community element at all. And there's no events, like it's just information. So those are my, those are what I don't like about ClickFunnels. Did I miss anything? Is there anything you don't like about your course in ClickFunnels that I didn't hit?   David Krohse  13:28 No. I mean, there's workarounds and jerry-rigs that can be done. I mean, I think that you could add a Facebook conversation below your lessons. I mean, there's these workarounds, but they look like workarounds.   Jacques Hopkins  13:40 And they absolutely are workarounds. So earlier this year, I decided it was time to look around. Like, I'm sure there's better options for me out there. Let's figure out what's going to be best for me. And look, that's daunting, because there are so many options out there. You know, the Online Course Community - the Facebook group that we have for this audience - I remember polling them earlier this year, "Hey, which platform are you using?" and I left it so they could add their own options. And there were like 25 different, you know, I started like 10 and by the end of it, there were like 25 different things in there. And so, it's overwhelming but I also really wanted to find the best option for me and my business and my students.   Jacques Hopkins  14:28 So, I've really been going on a deep dive the past six months and looking at as many of them as possible. And it's not possible to look at every single one for sure but in my opinion, there's basically three categories of course platforms and some people will call them LMS - Learning Management Systems - that's kind of a technical term for this. And, Jason Dion and I talked about these three categories a little bit back in 154, which Jason's got a good perspective on this stuff. So, if you want to hear more details about like, kind of these categories, you can go back and listen to that episode. One category is these marketplaces like Udemy, Skillshare; the newest one that I've seen is Mastermind which is like Tony Robbins and Russell Brunson, where they do the marketing, and you provide the content. That's what these marketplaces do. So that's, that's one category. And, that's not for me, but it is for some people.    Jacques Hopkins  15:28 The second category is what I'll call fully hosted SaaS. Okay, that's kind of what I'm calling it. SaaS stands for Software as a Service, meaning that they take care of any server hosting, like everything is on them. You use their software, their service, and you don't have to really worry about anything else from like a hosting and uptime and that type of thing perspective. So, these are your Kajabis, Thinkific, ClickFunnels, and so on. That makes sense?   Jacques Hopkins  16:02 Third category self-hosted SaaS. Typically, self-hosted SaaS is going to be some kind of WordPress plugin. There are others, Moodle has something, but in general your self-hosted stuff is going to be on WordPress. So, the most popular one out there is called LearnDash. There's also LifterLMS. There's a lot of WordPress plugins that you can use; I mentioned two earlier: Sensei, OptimizeMember, and so on. With these, there's a lot more like customization but there's a lot more potential headaches and problems too because you have to pay for the server you're hosting all this stuff on. And then the more users, the more bandwidth used, you got to have bigger and better servers, and so on. So, there's pros and cons, but those are the three categories: marketplaces, fully hosted SaaS, self-hosted SaaS.   David Krohse  17:01 Got it, I got it.   Jacques Hopkins  17:03 Alright, so for me, the most important features that I'm looking for are... Well, first of all, the ones that I mentioned about not liking about ClickFunnels, it'd be ideal if whatever I choose didn't have those problems, but then, in addition to that, there's three things: one is course and community in the same place. I'm trying to get off of Facebook with my communities. The reasons - there's a lot of reasons- one is distraction. There's ads on Facebook, there's notifications, you go there with the intention to get into the piano group and ask a question or see if you can help somebody else or see when the next live stream is and then you just get pulled into the latest fad that's being advertised to you, this and that, or, or some political debate you get roped into, and it's not necessarily serving you very well, in that way.   Jacques Hopkins  17:54 I do recognize it can work the other way around, meaning you jump on Facebook, like maybe to kill some time, and then you get pulled into the piano group. It's not all bad on Facebook, but I think the cons, it outweighs the pros at this point. And then there's privacy concerns and just overall contributing to bad habits and for that, man, have you watched The Social Dilemma yet?   David Krohse  18:19 No, I haven't.   Jacques Hopkins  18:22 Watch the Social Dilemma. It will make you want to get off of Facebook. I’ll just say that, as well. So that's a documentary on Netflix, highly recommended for anybody out there. But there are pros to being on Facebook, but like I said, I think the cons outweigh the pros. So, course and community in the same place. I've said this before, like, I could move to something like Circle, which is just a community, but I don't want users to have to go to one place for the course and another place for the community. I want it in the same place.   Jacques Hopkins  18:53 Two is I would like events and the ability to do live streams inside of the platform, because right now I do go live with my students once a week in Facebook. So, I need an alternative to that.   Jacques Hopkins  19:05 And three is I would like to be able to wrap all of this up and have it be in a branded mobile app, as well. I think that's especially important for my particular audience because piano apps are a thing - piano learning apps. And the demographic of my students also skews older, and older people typically prefer apps as well.   Jacques Hopkins  19:29 So those are kind of the three main things I'm looking for. Not as important, but something that I've been looking at as I evaluate things is it'd be nice to have video hosting, so I don't have to host it on Wistia or Vimeo. It would be nice to have some sort of gamification features, and so on. So, that's my list. Let me stop and give you the floor if you have any questions or comments and then we'll move forward.   David Krohse  19:59 No, I think I think that sounds great. I agree with all those lists. I think that'll greatly enhance the experience.   Jacques Hopkins  20:05 Okay, there's a few disclaimers throughout this and here's one: I'm going to tell you what I pick shortly, but what I pick doesn't mean that you should pick it too. I'm talking to you, David, I'm talking to everybody listening. There may be a lot of people who it might be a good fit for, but just because I picked it doesn't mean you should, too. And somebody in the Facebook group I think said it best. Neil said, "I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't really care what platform you pick. I'm sure you'll pick the right for your students in your business, but it will have no impact on me and mine."   David Krohse  20:36 Right.   Jacques Hopkins  20:38 Fair.   David Krohse  20:38 Right. But, I got to say that that particular Facebook comment feed was really interesting, just in the way that people have enjoyed watching your journey.   Jacques Hopkins  20:50 Yeah.   David Krohse  20:51 There's a lesson for other people that have their own communities is that people like, I don't know, I think people are invested in your decision, even though they're not planning on changing their hosting anytime soon, but they've enjoyed kind of watching a horse race and just kind of wondering and doing their own research about which direction you're going to go. So, I was really amazed at just the way that people have gotten excited.   Jacques Hopkins  21:15 Same here. And I've kind of leaned into that a little bit, dragged it out a little bit, teased it, and so on, just because I know people were excited about it. But, I don't want to drag it out any longer. So, are you, are you ready to hear what I think?   David Krohse  21:28 Well, no, no, I got to, I got to, I got to say like, the way that people are excited, we got to take the reveal to the next level. So...   Jacques Hopkins  21:34 Oh gosh.   David Krohse  21:35 I have a... you know, I'm always brainstorming, but your mission, should you choose to accept it: we got to take the reveal multimedia, and so this is kind of inspired by all these baby reveals. But I've got three different video reveals that you could choose from, or you could come up with your own. And if you decide to take my instructions here, if somebody goes into the actual show notes, they'd be able to click in and watch the video.   David Krohse  22:05 So, option number one, Jacques, is you would get two different pies. So, what's your favorite kind of pie?   Jacques Hopkins  22:13 Pecan.   David Krohse  22:14 Pecan.   Jacques Hopkins  22:14 No doubt. Pecan.   David Krohse  22:14 I was wondering how you pronounce it. I guessed that. So, pecan. So, get a pecan and a cherry pie, assign each one as one of these top two choices, and then take two pieces from each, set the one that you didn't choose off to the side, and then cover the other in whipped cream, get your daughters there and let them smash pies on dad. And we'd be able to see which one you went with. So, option number two, we've had a recurring theme in the last couple episodes about a cold shower. So, option number two is you get to get some Kool-Aid packets, cherry and like a green apple, and then you got to take a shower head off in your house and stick some Kool-Aid in it...   Jacques Hopkins  22:18 Oh, my goodness.   David Krohse  22:25 ...and then you got to get in your swimsuit and a white shirt, and then we get to see your daughters turn on the cold shower on you and see if your shirt turns green or red.    David Krohse  23:05 Alright, so option number three: you might appeal, or you might like this one the best since you're the big sports fan, but you can actually get these baby reveal baseballs. And so, we design...   David Krohse  23:15 ...sign pink as one of the top two choices, blue as the other. You get to throw the ball up in the air and swing like you're trying to win the Stanley Cup and just see that thing explode to the color that you chose.   Jacques Hopkins  23:15 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins  23:28 So, are you suggesting that we actually do one of these three? Because you know, we're recording this three weeks before it'll actually air. So, are you saying in the next three weeks, we need to record something like this?   David Krohse  23:38 In the next three weeks, you, and the kids, record it and then just put it in the show notes as the top one. And if somebody wants to watch the reveal, as a video, they can do that. Hey, it's next level! That's your thing.   Jacques Hopkins  23:51 It is next level. You never make it, you never make it easy on me, man. I was ready to just tell you what I picked and now you got to go do all this. So...   David Krohse  23:59 That third one is doable, though.   Jacques Hopkins  24:00 The third one is pretty doable. You know, you got to remember, I've done two baby gender reveals before. And one we did balloons where I think it was a certain color confetti inside of the balloon that we popped. And then the other one was eggs. Once again, I think it was confetti, but you had to crack the egg open to see what color was on the inside. In both cases, it was pink. And now I'm a girl dad, which is fine. But I know, I know about these reveals and so if I end up doing something like that, which I don't appreciate you adding work to my plates, the top two would be Mighty Networks and BuddyBoss.   David Krohse  24:01 Very nice.    Jacques Hopkins  24:06 Okay. And it's interesting because I put a poll in the, in the Online Course Community on what people think or thought I would pick, and I've certainly dropped hints here and there and I've been somewhat transparent without blatantly saying what I picked but you know, the community has done a good job. And those are the top two vote getters. I think Mighty Networks is the top vote getter that people think I'm going to go with. And so those are the top two. You care to guess which one it is?   David Krohse  25:16 Uhm, well, I think, well, you got to remember BuddyBoss, you'll explain it more, but BuddyBoss sits on top of LearnDash. So, if you combine those two... doesn't it?   Jacques Hopkins  25:25 Yeah. It does. Yes.   David Krohse  25:27 All right. Well, yeah, my guess is definitely BuddyBoss.   Jacques Hopkins  25:30 Correct. That's the one. So, here's what happened; I fell absolutely in love with Mighty Networks. Absolutely. Especially after talking to Gina, I don't remember what episode that was, but we'll link to it in the show notes. And there was so much to like about it. I love that it was a community platform first and then they added courses later. And it was really nice. They released this new events feature that was super slick and I started playing around with it. There's certainly people in the audience that use it and they informed me of the kind of the pros and cons of it. There's one lady in Next Level Courses, Celia, shout out to Celia, because she loves Mighty Networks. She let me be a student inside of her Mighty Network, and I got to play around with it there.   Jacques Hopkins  26:21 But as it turned out, there was just a couple things about it that I just couldn't get past. They do charge like a transaction fee. If somebody purchases through your course through their system, they charge like a 2% transaction fee. Now, that does vary depending on what level you sign up for. And then also, they have... Their really high tier plan is the one that comes with branded apps, which is what I was looking for. And it's very expensive. I don't know if they would want me to say exactly how expensive but it's definitely in the five-figure range, and that's a yearly fee for this particular level.   Jacques Hopkins  27:04 And I'm telling you, David, I was so close to signing a contract for that, but they're in Apple's pocket, like or maybe the other way around, like they're... I was going to have to charge a price for my course that ended in 99 cents. Like, they're tied to Apple's pricing model for their App Store because of the app situation. So, I was going to have to charge like $299.99, or $399.99, or $499.99. And I just didn't like being limited in that. Like one of the things I'm looking for is customization and not being held back in any way.   Jacques Hopkins  27:39 And then the last thing I didn't like about Mighty Networks was they didn't have a tagging system, which I found very strange. Like, I like being able to tag my students with certain things, for certain access restrictions and they just didn't really have that. And so, for some people, that won't be a problem. For some people, none of those things will be a problem. Mighty Networks could be a good fit for you. But those kind of three things really, really made me not want to sign the contract. I'm telling you, I had it like printed out, I was ready to sign it. I just kept not signing it because I'm like, "Oh, but there's these things." Right?   David Krohse  28:12 Right.   Jacques Hopkins  28:13 And then all of a sudden, I came across BuddyBoss. I never heard of it other than a few past guests actually briefly mentioning it on the podcast. Had you heard about it until recently?   David Krohse  28:25 No. Again, I think I shared a clue with the podcast listeners because I was listening in your Next Level Courses, and somehow you mentioned BuddyBoss when you were talking with one of the students in there. And I was like, "What is that?" And I looked it up and all of a sudden in my Facebook feed it started saying our new BuddyBoss app is coming soon, AppBoss. I'm like, "Oh, wait, this is a clue." So, I asked you about that back in the - Oh, it was just one of the episodes where we talked about the things that were going on in the next level Q&A.   Jacques Hopkins  29:00 Yeah. So, there's just a lot to like about BuddyBoss. There's a lot of downsides, too, and I'll certainly talk about those, because now I'm talking about getting back into the WordPress plugin side of things. And I did have not the greatest experiences before. There's a lot of problems with that. But the reason I'm going with BuddyBoss is, first of all, the sheer amount of possible customization. I can get it just almost exactly like I particularly want it to be because it's WordPress. It's like, that's one of the cool things; WordPress is like the number one website platform in the world. So, there's just like, probably millions of WordPress plugins out there and just about anything you want to do, you can probably do. For a lot of people that's not a good idea because you could break stuff, right? And even with me, like I understand that I could do some customization and then BuddyBoss updates, the plugin updates, and it doesn't jive with some of the customization we did. So, I mean, I wasn't going to go down this path unless I had a like dedicated person kind of owning that, because I understand that the problems that come with that as well. So that's one of the disclaimers that I'll give is if you're going to go this route with BuddyBoss, and you got to have LearnDash, as well, and I'll talk about that. But you're going to need somebody who knows servers, knows WordPress, that could kind of manage this for you. You don't need a full-time person, but you need somebody dedicated and responsible for it. For the updates, for the upkeep.   Jacques Hopkins  30:33 I mentioned that some past guests had mentioned using it, and I didn't really know what it was at the time, so I couldn't really lean into that. But Dr. Marnie Ginsburg from Episode 147, she uses it - loves it. Tim Topham from Episode 69 uses it - loves it. Both of them are actually extremely, extremely successful course creators. And as I say that I'm looking at their names, they're actually both more membership sites to be honest with you. That's because BuddyBoss is actually so social. Like it's built to be this big social -  it's like installing your own social network.   David Krohse  31:09 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  31:10 That's what BuddyBoss is. It's kind of creating your own, white-labeled Social Network. Gina, the founder of Mighty Networks kind of talked about that in our episode. She was talking about how you could with Mighty Networks, you can be your own Mark Zuckerberg of your own network. And I think this takes it even a step further, because you're not tied to all of Mighty Networks's features that you just cannot change or customize in any way. But, BuddyBoss is a lot more open because it's on WordPress.   Jacques Hopkins  31:40 So, the customization is one of the main reasons I went there. Community obviously is very, very important to me and it's got that. And then, just the icing on the cake was the app. Right? So, when I first discovered BuddyBoss, they had this announcement, it's like, the next big thing for BuddyBoss, the BuddyBoss app coming soon. You know, sign up here to get informed. So, I didn't know exactly what it was going to be when I first came across BuddyBoss but when they announced it, I think it was the beginning of November, they announced what it was, it was exactly what I was looking for, like, literally packaged this whole thing up and turned it into branded apps. And it wasn't... it was like $100 a month or something and they had an add on package for like, around $800, where they would like do it all for you and they would submit it to the App Stores and make sure it all works for you. So, I bought that as well. And so, my investment is going to be far, far, far, far less than Mighty Networks. Plus, hopefully I'll be able to do the extra things that I wasn't able to do in Mighty Networks.   Jacques Hopkins  32:44 So, BuddyBoss is the social network, right? It's not the... technically it's not the LMS, right? It's not the course part. So, it integrates seamlessly with LearnDash. So, BuddyBoss and LearnDash go together, as far as I'm concerned. Some people I guess, like anybody that's come on and had a membership site where they didn't necessarily have an online course could use BuddyBoss without LearnDash. It does work without LearnDash but most of the listeners here would want both. So, you install both and they seamlessly integrate together. So, in my poll in the community, I separated them out. And I think the guesses we're like Mighty Networks, number one. BuddyBoss, number two. LearnDash, number three. So, a lot of people were on to me, but nobody called me out. I mean, you just did on the podcast a few minutes ago, but nobody was like, wait, when you need BuddyBoss and LearnDash? Like nobody said that in the comments.   David Krohse  33:38 Oh, yeah, somebody did.   Jacques Hopkins  33:40 Okay, well, maybe I just missed that. But that's... it was kind of a trick question because I say I'm going with BuddyBoss, but I'm going with BuddyBoss and LearnDash. I'm going with both of them. And I had kind of made up my mind several weeks ago and then I talked to Jason Dion, from episode was it 154? I mentioned earlier. And if you guys listen to that episode, you know that Jason is moving off of LearnDash on to Thinkific. And I kind of made up my mind going into that conversation and that's why kind of presented it. It's like, "Wait, tell me about all the downsides of LearnDash?" Like, give me, I needed all the details from him. And a lot of times I'll use this podcast as an outlet for like getting information for my actual business. And so that's why I pressed in them so hard, and we've actually had a lot of conversations off-air about it, and he supports it - he feels pretty good about it. His business is so different than mine. But, that's what I have chosen to do. What do you think?   David Krohse  34:47 That sounds great. So yeah, I guess I just like to learn more about, like the costs of LearnDash. And then now you're going, to you're still going to be paying for your video hosting through Wistia. It's just a lot of moving parts, but...   Jacques Hopkins  35:02 Yeah, so the one big thing it doesn't have is the video hosting. And I said that's kind of one of the things I was looking for, but the category I ended up picking was that third category, the self-hosted SaaS, right? And you're just not going to get video hosting on something like that. That's just not... it's not congruent with being self-hosted. But I'm able to get just about everything else. For gamification, there's a WordPress plugin called GamiPress, G-A-M-I, which seamlessly integrates with BuddyBoss. And we've already done a ton of customization to it to where it doesn't even look like other BuddyBoss sites, like it's my own thing. It's like this white labeled platform. Some people asked me months ago, like, "Are you going to develop your own platform?" I have no interest in doing that. Like that sounds like such a headache. That's not something that I particularly would want to do. And there's so many out there. But with BuddyBoss, and LearnDash, and WordPress, I kind of am able to do that but not be near as difficult.   Jacques Hopkins  36:06 So, why should somebody not choose this option? I mean, I've alluded to it already. It could be an absolute nightmare for you. I do not recommend you start here. If you're a beginner, don't start there. I promise you, please do not start there. You have got to have not only... I recommend, if you go this route, like have a person dedicated, like even if you find somebody on Upwork, who's just like, "Hey, five hours a week, forever. You're responsible for this installation in this server." Like, I'm suggesting you do that. But you also have to worry about where you host it as well. Right? If you go sign up for Teachable, then you have an account and you upload things to Teachable, your Teachable account. You don't worry about like, "Okay, what server is this actually living on." But with this you do. Like, you got to figure out where this stuff is going to live. Just like you would a WordPress site but it's more important because you have to worry about server load, and all your users and how many users are playing a video at one time, and so on. And then, as you mentioned, it also doesn't include video hosting.   Jacques Hopkins  37:09 So, there's the downside, so please take this with a huge, huge grain of salt.   David Krohse  37:15 So, you're saying that it doesn't pass the Nate Dotson test, right?   Jacques Hopkins  37:18 Ooh no. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, it does not pass the Nate Dotson test. And as you know, I'm pretty technical. Like, I'm not a big server nerd or that. I know some coding. I'm not a coder. But I'm pretty technical. So, that's another reason I feel comfortable with this solution is because minor things I can troubleshoot and fix myself, not that that's the goal, by any means, but for somebody super non techie, all the more reason you would need somebody available to help you with this.   David Krohse  37:48 How confident are you that you are not going to have to pay Apple the 30%? Or there was an update that maybe it would drop to 15%. But, how confident are you that that's not going to happen at some point here? Or what is the workaround where you don't have to pay Apple?   Jacques Hopkins  38:04 Yeah, so we'll get into that in future episodes, because here's another disclaimer, right? We haven't actually launched yet. We're getting very, very close. We're populating all the content. It's looking great. It's working great, so far. We're beta testing it a little bit so far, but we haven't actually launched yet. And we certainly haven't launched the app yet, because BuddyBoss made the announcement in November, but they're not rolling out the first apps for people until like, February. Right.   Jacques Hopkins  38:31 So, I'll keep everybody updated along the way as we go. I'll keep you updated. They say that they have ways around that, like they're going to help me... that's one of the reasons I paid the extra for them to help me. That's non-negotiable. I'm not going to pay Apple 30% of my revenue on sales. We're going to find a way around, it for sure.   David Krohse  38:54 Right.   Jacques Hopkins  38:55 So, remember that, like I haven't actually launched yet. And, I will be completely honest. It's possible that it doesn't work out and six months down the road, I'm not using BuddyBoss. Right. Keep that in mind. We're not actually on it yet. This is the path we're going down. We're launching soon. And I'll keep you guys posted on how it's going.   David Krohse  39:14 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  39:15 so, let's talk about what else is out there. We talked about Mighty Networks, we talked about BuddyBoss, and LearnDash a little bit. What other options are out there? It seems like the options are endless. It seems like new ones are popping up all the time and I'm sure in a year from now there'll be fifty more that come out. And so, I certainly can't mention them all right now, right? So, you know, if you're listening to this and I don't say one you're thinking of, or I didn't look into one you're thinking of like please don't email me like saying, "Hey, why didn't you mention or talk about this one?" Like, that's almost impossible. I tried to talk about the most popular ones out there for the most part but just keep in mind this is not exhaustive, by means. Okay. So historically on this podcast, I've kind of talked about the Big Four of course platforms. You know what they are?   David Krohse  40:08 Thinkific, Teachable, Kajabi...   Jacques Hopkins  40:11 And ClickFunnels. Yeah, those are... I've called those like the Big Four, historically. Here's the New Big Four: BuddyBoss, Kajabi, Thinkific, and Mighty Networks.   David Krohse  40:24 Teachable. You're not... Yo, come on. Teachable...   Jacques Hopkins  40:26 I do not like Teachable.   David Krohse  40:27 You don't think so?   Jacques Hopkins  40:28 I do not...   Jacques Hopkins  40:28 ...like Teachable. I do not like it. That is one of my least favorite ones I've evaluated of all the ones we're going to talk about. And I might get to Teachable. But I do not like Teachable. I like these others. I like these others a lot. Okay, so these are my new, like, top four, Big Four that I'll recommend to people.   David Krohse  40:29 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  40:46 Kajabi is awesome. In fact, you asked me a few episodes ago, if you thought maybe that's the one I picked. I think.   David Krohse  40:54 I think so, I mean, it all comes down to the value of the branded app. And whether that's really worth it. Which I was thinking, I mean like, if you... let's say that you... I mean, you could assess the value that if you asked every customer, like, okay, you know, the price is $497 with a Kajabi app, or it's $547 if you get a Piano in 21 Days app. I mean, you could actually... it's interesting just like, mental, kind of, like, exercise to say what's the value of the custom branded app? Where people actually pay $50 more to see the app say Piano in 21 Days.   Jacques Hopkins  41:31 That's fair. I am as you know, dead set on this branded app idea. It could blow up in my face, but I just think my students would really appreciate that. So, Kajabi’s great. It has everything, okay, that's the thing about Kajabi. It's got the email in there. It's got community. It's got... you can even, you know, they pitch it as you can build your whole website, you can have a blog there. It's the best, in my opinion, like, all-in-one platform. For that you pay for it. It's one of the most expensive, as well, but you got to keep in mind everything you're getting, too. To me, the biggest downside with Kajabi, other than you can't have a branded app, but this kind of goes hand-in-hand with that, is that there's not from what I've seen, there's not really an open API, meaning that it's kind of closed down. You can't really tie other things into it, which is unlike Thinkific, which I'll talk about in a second. That's the biggest downside. They do have a mobile app, there's a Kajabi app that you could get your students to download and access your course through that, but it's not a branded app. So, there's a lot to like about Kajabi. You look at a guy like Graham Cochrane, from RecordingRevolution.com - we'll link to in the show notes what episode he was on - but he runs his whole business on there. In fact, he's got two businesses, because he does kind of what I do, where I've got the music course business, but then he also teaches online business, as well. And for that, he just uses his name, GrahamCochrane.com, and he runs both businesses entirely in Kajabi. From the website, to the blog, to the emails, to the courses, to the membership, to the community; everything is Kajabi. He's a huge fan of it. He promotes it, you know, they have a good affiliate program, too. In fact, I was recommending Kajabi to somebody the other day, like, they came to me, somebody I know personally, and was like, "Hey, here's my needs." I was like, "You know what, I think Kajabi is actually a good fit for you."   Jacques Hopkins  43:28 Thinkific is another great one. Okay.   David Krohse  43:31 Jacques, could we talk a little bit more about Kajabi?   Jacques Hopkins  43:32 Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.   David Krohse  43:34 All right. Well, a couple questions with the Kajabi. I know that you're appropriately, like geeky about email deliverability and you want an appropriate amount of automation. Is your assessment of Kajabi's email that it's adequate for somebody that wants their emails to actually hit people's inboxes?   Jacques Hopkins  43:52 Yes, it is. It's not as feature rich as ActiveCampaign, which I use for my emails, but overall, it's good enough for most people. And, I seriously considered Kajabi. There's a lot to like about it.   David Krohse  44:08 Yeah. And the other thing I'd mentioned is that there was a conversation somewhere in the Facebook group about branded versus non-branded app and like two people chimed in and said that they now have four or five courses all in Kajabi. And they view that as a huge benefit, is that they can jump in there and go to whichever course that they like, so it's just hard to anticipate all of your members' needs and obviously this whole online course space just keeps growing.   Jacques Hopkins  44:36 Yeah. Have you ever tried to like, read more than one book at one time?   David Krohse  44:43 Sure.   Jacques Hopkins  44:43 I don't know about you, but it doesn't usually end well for me. Like, if I start reading a book and I get a third of the way through and then it's like, "Okay, wait, I really want to read this other book." I start that other book. I usually don't finish the first book. Right? And I think courses are the same way. You don't want to go through multiple different types of courses at the same time. And that's what I want to do for my piano students, I want them to be fully ingrained and immersed in piano and learn as quickly as possible. And so, if they go to their app, and there's the piano app, but there's also the coding app and the brewing your own beer at home app, it's like, no, like, let's not learn all these things at the same time, like let's learn piano and then move on to something else.   David Krohse  45:23 That's fair.   Jacques Hopkins  45:24 That's my opinion.   David Krohse  45:25 Usually, I have like one fun book and one nonfiction book.   Jacques Hopkins  45:26 That's what I do, too. I'm usually reading one fiction and nonfiction at a time, but when I start getting into like multiple nonfiction books at the same time, then I'm not going to finish it all.   David Krohse  45:35 Right.   Jacques Hopkins  45:37 You ready to move on?   David Krohse  45:38 Yes.   Jacques Hopkins  45:39 Thinkific. It's a big... in fact, when I polled the audience earlier this year about which platforms they're using, this was, this was number one. This is probably the biggest one. Really cool. This is what Jason Dion's moving on to. It does have more of an open API, so technically, like some sort of custom app/branded app that then ties into everything that's inside of Thinkific seems like it's possible, but it would cost a lot in development to be able to do that. And it also doesn't have the email system from what I've seen. So, it's not quite as all-in-one as Kajabi. And I don't think that it's meant to be an all-in-one platform, I think it's meant to be focused on online courses.   Jacques Hopkins  46:24 So Kajabi, you would choose if all-in-one is important to you. Whereas the Thinkific, it's maybe more if open API is important to you. And then, Mighty Networks, the biggest thing about that, for me is like community first. It was a community platform first; it's very focused on community. The community elements in Mighty Networks are far superior to Thinkific and Kajabi. And so, if that's important to you, then consider Mighty Networks because they also have courses, as well. It also does events really well, too. But, I've told you the disappointing things about Mighty Networks as well. Those are the Big Four, the New Big Four.   David Krohse  47:01 Got it.   Jacques Hopkins  47:01 As far as price goes, with these and the others, from what I've seen, for the most part price reflects features. For example, Kajabi is probably the most expensive one, but it's got the most features overall. Now, we'll get into some more budget options, but in general I'm not like, I'm not going to rank things on a scale of 1 to 10 on a bunch of different factors like price, but just in general, you kind of get what you pay for. That makes sense?   David Krohse  47:31 Well give us a rough idea of what a beginning course creator might spend on Kajabi.   Jacques Hopkins  47:35 A hundred and sixty dollars a month. Right. They have multiple plans, multiple tiers - don't quote me on that - and then you could pay up to $350-400 a month, depending on how many courses, how many students, and so on. But you look at like, a MembersPRO, which is just the course software, right? Just the course side of things, it's a lot cheaper than Kajabi, but it doesn't have the email and the community and website and blogging and all that. So, I just wanted to give that little disclaimer about price.   Jacques Hopkins  48:06 So, I think, let's get into some categories here. Best choice for established course creators: I would say either BuddyBoss or Thinkific.   David Krohse  48:16 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  48:16 That's my recommendation. Maybe Kajabi, but I would say either BuddyBoss or Thinkific. Okay?   David Krohse  48:21 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  48:22 Bootstrappers on a budget. Okay, I got few for you here. So, ClickFunnels is still viable. And especially if you're already using ClickFunnels for your funnels, and you're trying to bootstrap things, then use the, use the ClickFunnels course platform. You're using it, Nate's using it, a lot of successful course creators are still using it. It works for what it is. So, consider that if you're bootstrapping things, and you have a ClickFunnels account already.   Jacques Hopkins  48:49 MembersPRO. I think their lowest tiered plan, I think is $40. Thirty-nine dollars a month and it's one of the best just course platforms. I had one of the creators on an earlier episode, Chris Benetti. Love them. Love those guys. They're doing awesome things and I'm really excited to see where MembersPRO goes. I could be on MembersPRO in five years, or in three years, you know if they add some of these features that I would love to see. But, if you're bootstrapping things, you just need a course platform, MembersPRO - I'm looking at it now, starts at $39 a month. I know people that use it and love it. It could be a good option.   Jacques Hopkins  49:28 A couple more like bootstrapping options: New Zenler. Right? Jono talked about that in a previous episode, how it doesn't do everything like, really, really well, but it does it good enough. And it's pretty inexpensive because it's new. It's the new version of Zenler and they're kind of still beta testing it so you can get in on a lot lower price than it's going to be. And that's kind of an all-in-one system. They have a lot of components inside of there. So, it's worth checking out if you're on a budget and want that all in one thing. Also, Podia. Podia also pitches itself as kind of all-in-one, but it's a lower priced option for that. Probably not going to get as good as stuff as Kajabi, but if you don't want to pay $160 a month and you want to pay $60 a month for kind of the same features, then Podia, New Zenler might be a good option.   Jacques Hopkins  50:25 If community is most important to you, consider Mighty Networks. If a personal touch is most important to you, I'd recommend MembersPRO. I think that's one of the big things you're getting there is you will probably get to know the creators if you sign up for MembersPRO.   Jacques Hopkins  50:42 This is a category you suggested, and I have a good option for it - Rookie of the Year. Kind of a newer one, one to keep an eye on. Have you heard of this one: Xperiencify?   David Krohse  50:53 I think I saw it in the list, but no, I haven't.   Jacques Hopkins   50:56 XP, it's like "experience-ify" but it starts with an X. X-P-E-R-I-E-N-C-I-F-Y. Very interesting, because their big pitch is "Hey, in general, people buy courses and don't finish them." Their big thing is we have AI technology that like 3X’s actual completion rates, which is really cool. It's really cool. I looked into it. They certainly don't have community or an app or any of that, but it was very interesting and something worth checking out and worth keeping an eye on.   Jacques Hopkins  51:33 Others that I looked into at least a little bit, or people have mentioned in the community: Teachable. I just don't think it's anything special. I don't love the environment. I don't know why you would ever go with Teachable over say a MembersPRO. They're both just course platforms. MembersPRO is a lot less expensive and in my opinion, it's better. I don't know why anybody would ever use Teachable.   David Krohse  52:00 Okay. It's got a pretty huge user base though. So, I don't know.   Jacques Hopkins  52:05 It was one of the early ones and then people like Pat Flynn getting behind it certainly helped. This is just my opinion, but I don't like Teachable.   David Krohse  52:16 Got it. But they do... do they have an app?   Jacques Hopkins  52:19 They do. I don't know if they have a mobile app. They have the whole myTeachable thing where like, you were talking about with Kajabi, you can log in and see all the courses you bought on Teachable. I don't know if they have a mobile app or not. I would like to think they do since they have that feature already. Ok.   Jacques Hopkins  52:35 Circle, which is actually like an offshoot of Teachable. People left Teachable, started Circle. People asked me if I was considering that. The thing is, it's just community. It doesn't have the course features in there, but from what I've seen on the community aspects, it looks amazing. And I think if they add course features, it could be pretty awesome. And I have to think they're working on that. Maybe not, I don't know.   Jacques Hopkins  52:59 Kartra is another popular one. Pretty sure it's made by the same people that made like, WebinarJam, EverWebinar. I just don't really like those. WebinarJam and EverWebinar are very clunky. Support is not great. Like, I just don't love those, so therefore, I don't even want to try Kartra. I know that may not be fair. I've heard from other users that their support is not great. But it is another all-in-one platform.   Jacques Hopkins  53:26 And then we have something called 10XPRO, another all-in-one platform. I don't know why you would go with 10XPRO over Kajabi if you're looking for all-in-one, just my opinion.   Jacques Hopkins  53:39 Disciple. This is an interesting one. I actually looked into this pretty hard. Disciple is actually a community first platform, but they don't have courses. They had some features in there that made me think I could kind of put a course in there; they had something called folders and you could put content in there. And they also will make you a branded app too. So, Disciple is very interesting. I don't understand why they don't have courses, but Disciple looks pretty cool, too.   Jacques Hopkins  54:06 And then I think I mentioned Podia already in the bootstrappers. So, a couple more disclaimers here. And we need to wrap up soon because I have a pretty fun masterclass coming up for Next Level Courses on evergreen webinars. But customer support, in my opinion, is a very important part of this. And I just am not able to rate the customer support of all of these in a format like that. So, take this once again with a grain of salt. You know, let's just say hypothetically, like, a Podia. If they have world class customer support, that could possibly put them in the top four. I just don't know, right? I think customer support is huge. DeadlineFunnel, right? This is not a course platform, but DeadlineFunnel support is probably the best support that I've seen for any software platform ever. I've reached out to Jack Born, the creator before and be like, "How do you hire people? Because your support people are so amazing." So, I have not evaluated customer support here so that could easily jump somebody way up the list if they have really, really good support. And if you're on a platform that has great support, then you might want to stay there because not everybody does. Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  55:19 I mentioned that I haven't actually launched yet, so in six months now you might find me on Thinkific or Mighty Networks or something. Not likely. But, you know, keep that in mind too. I want to look at some of the USPs of these. So, like if I go to Mighty Networks, right now, it says on the homepage, like, I believe that when you go to somebody's homepage, you should be able to really tell what they're about and how they can help you within the first like, five seconds. They say it's, "A new kind of website builder that grows with you." Website builder? Okay, interesting. The sub headline says, "Bring together your website, online cour
115 minutes | 2 months ago
160: One Hour a Day to Run a $2 Million Online Course Business with 14 Employees (featuring Abbey Ashley)
It’s time to catch up with another course creator friend! Abbey Ashley is no stranger to this show, but it’s been a while since we’ve heard what she’s up to. And she does not disappoint: Abbey’s been killing it this year! We chatted about how her business is evolving, where she sees herself focusing her energy in the future, and much more. Enjoy! “You will pivot. Things will shift, and that’s totally okay.” -Abbey Ashley In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) Why I’m excited about today’s episode + a teaser for next week! (3:07) Thoughts on lead magnets and “getting to know” course creators (5:18) Working out in 2020 (8:36) Talking Facebook ads and group interaction (10:03) Setting the stage for today’s interview (11:09) Welcoming Abbey back and hearing her online course business update (14:07) Keeping the train rolling in 2020 (16:33) Abbey’s growing team (18:24) How she’s making an impact on students’ lives (including my own team) (21:17) Charting metrics and looking for areas to improve (26:41) Project management tools (28:38) “Extreme ownership” and applying common leadership principles (30:12) What it takes to succeed (31:55) The evolution of Abbey’s funnel and how learning from others has influenced it (38:46) The importance of finding your audience (42:00) Abbey’s Facebook groups and the importance of honesty (44:44) Thoughts on leaving Facebook – or not (47:39) Course platform decisions (49:54) The importance of listening to your audience (52:49) Why Abbey’s enjoying learning from a new mentor (55:55) Hiring and running a team (58:53) Thinking about team culture and efficiency (1:03:36) Making the transition from contractors to employees (1:07:55) Surprise, delight, and… shots? (1:12:45) Handling hiring in the U.S. (1:13:44) Delegating and getting out of day-to-day operations (1:17:12) Lynch-pin redundancy (1:20:56) What’s next for Abbey (1:26:13) Is a podcast in the works for Abbey? (1:27:42) Where to find her online and why it’s okay to copy (1:30:23) How much fun it would be to be on Abbey’s team? + How we first connected (1:33:04) Emotions and shareable moments (1:34:52) Updates and differences in teams (1:37:48) How things are going with my OBM + David’s singing solo (1:39:02) Upsells vs. downsells, tortoises vs. hares (1:41:41) A high-ticket program without a sales call? (1:44:10) Funnel hacking and evolving with the times (1:46:40) “There is no secret sauce” + Pinterest myth-busting (1:49:00) The importance of a learning mindset (1:50:54) Wrapping up with a plug for next week’s episode That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: The Virtual Savvy VA Checklist and Starter Kit Resources and Recommendations: Betty Rocker Dr. John Jaquish ClickUp Trello Asana Evolved Finance Extreme Ownership 2X Business Coaching Mariah Coz Teachable Kajabi SamCart Fix This Next The Pumpkin Plan Clockwork Good to Great Gusto Side Hustle Nation Consulting.com Episode 37 Episode 79 Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins   00:02 Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing it.   Jacques Hopkins   00:12 But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the Online Course Show.    Jacques Hopkins   00:32 And off we go, welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins. And over there is our cohost. What's going on Dr. K?   David Krohse   00:40 Not too much. I'm doing fantastic here.   Jacques Hopkins   00:42 I am ready for another episode. This is 160. And in just a little bit, we're going to hear from a returning guest. This will be her third time on, and she is such an inspiration. Abbey Ashley. Her business is up to about 2 million a year. She's got like 14 or 15 full time employees. Doing very little into the business now. Really excited to share that conversation with you and with the audience, but I would like to tease something. I would like to tease something to next week.   David Krohse   00:53 All right. What?   Jacques Hopkins   01:12 I don't do this often. So, what's the big thing that you keep asking me about, and everybody keeps asking me about?   David Krohse   01:18 Yeah, I think we want to know what the best course platform in the world is.   Jacques Hopkins   01:23 Best course platform in the world is. Yeah. So, past... what.... six months probably I've been doing a deep dive on a lot of different course platforms. It's probably impossible to evaluate all of them because there's new ones cropping up every day. And so, I've looked at the big ones, I've looked at some smaller ones as well, and I have made a decision on where I'm going to be hosting my course - my piano course - going forward. And so next week, I'm going to reveal what I've picked, if you should pick the same thing, and we're going to talk about a lot of other platforms as well. Pros and cons of each, and kind of what which one would be a good fit for certain types of people. Because I promise, the one that I have selected is not the right fit for everyone. It's going to be the right fit for a lot of people, but not for everyone. And we'll talk about that next week. How does that sound?   David Krohse   02:19 Yeah, I'm looking forward to that conversation.   Jacques Hopkins   02:21 Cool. So, it'll just be me and you. No interview next week. And I'll kind of walk you through my process. and you can ask questions and whatnot. So that's what's coming up next week. So, everybody stay tuned for 161 next week, which will be our last episode of the year.  Last episode of December.   David Krohse   02:41 Nice. Yeah, we got a lot in this year. We didn't quite get one every week but pretty close.   Jacques Hopkins   02:47 It'll probably end up at like 49. We probably missed two or three weeks. We didn't release one on Thanksgiving week. There was one or two other times throughout the year. And you say we like if it were up to you, you would release them every week. It's definitely on me that we missed a couple. So, you do your part. You show up every week and I really appreciate that.   David Krohse   03:05 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   03:06 So that's what's going on next week with platforms. Before we get into the conversation with Abbey, you got any updates for us? Anything of note that seems off the wall, but somehow you magically tie it in the courses like you do every week?   David Krohse   03:18 Yeah, I do. So, I started a new workout program. And you know, one of the common questions for course creators is what should my lead magnet be? And also, a question, how much should you give away before people actually join your course or join a community? And so, I have started doing a workout called The Betty Rocker. And I actually invited you to join it. I don't know. You turned me down. But this Betty Rocker it's, I mean, I think it's a huge, huge membership. A huge community of people that do these workouts. But she has a 30-day challenge. And so, what attracted me to it, I mean, first off, I have a female chiropractor friend that posted this picture of herself with these biceps that were just popping huge. And I knew that her only workout was doing Betty rocker. So, number one, I mean, it was just seeing visual proof of what that could do for a female friend. But ultimately, the workouts are 15 minutes a day. All bodyweight no tools, nothing needed, except for a mat on the floor. And so, I'm like five days into it. And you know, I mean, she's given away a ton of value. So far, the only thing I've been pitched is a meal plan for like, $39 or there's like a smaller meal planning a little info product for $9. But other than that, I mean, heck of a huge lead magnet. And yeah, we should get her on the podcast at some point.   Jacques Hopkins   04:41 There you go.   David Krohse   04:42 The Betty Rocker.   Jacques Hopkins   04:43 There's always an upsell, man.   David Krohse   04:45 Oh, yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   04:45 There's always an upsell.   David Krohse   04:47 By the end of it I'm going to feel like friends with Betty. So...   Jacques Hopkins   04:50 Yeah, I bet you are. I'm sure a lot of people feel like they know me so well, you know, going through my course or heck, even listening to this podcast. It's like they're spending so much time with you when you have a platform like this, but you're not necessarily spending time with them. It's a very interesting relationship. I mean, listeners this feel like they know you so well. But you don't know all the thousands of people that are listening to this podcast. You know, a few of them, but you certainly don't know everybody.   David Krohse   05:18 Right? So, did you look into the workout at all? Did you consider doing it all with me?   Jacques Hopkins   05:22 I looked at it briefly, but I recently started something myself as well that I don't want to get off. I don't want to get off that train. What I succumb to... So, I'm a crossfitter. I've been doing CrossFit for like three plus years, but I haven't... that kind of stop when the first lockdowns came in middle of March. And I supported my gym, I still paid my membership for several months. And then they open back up and I went like two or three times, but it just wasn't the same. It was it felt weird being there. And to be honest with you, they kind of for some reason fired my favorite coach that was there as well. So, I decided to just okay, now's the time for me to just back out for now. And so, I stopped going completely. And all the while just kind of trying to figure out what I wanted to do, as far as working out goes, because resistance training is important to me. And my brother-in-law recommended something to me that I've been using and really, really digging. It's called the X3 system. Have you heard of that?   David Krohse   06:24 I have not.   Jacques Hopkins   06:26 So, let me... this is we're getting a little off tangent here but you know, health and wellness goes along with success in online business, for sure. And this system was created by a guy named  Dr. John Jaquish, and he's been in the wellness space for a long time. He's got some sort of partnership or business with Tony Robbins. He invented some sort of bone density medical device that was like his big claim to fame. And through that research, he discovered that variable resistance training was actually incredibly effective, meaning that it's not the same amount of tension or force the whole movement while you're pushing or pulling weights. And so, he invented a product that could for most bang for the buck help you accomplish that variable resistance training. And that's bands. Right? But he had to invent these really, really powerful bands that don't break ever. And the unique thing about the system too, is its bands with like an Olympic bar. So, you're not just holding the band, you're holding the bar, and then the weight is the bands.   Jacques Hopkins   07:34 So, it's really cool. I've been doing it for probably six weeks now. My brother-in-law actually bought it about a year ago, because he succumbed to these Facebook ads. And every time we talk about it he's like, "I can't believe I gave in to those ads." But he loves it. And if anybody's listening to this, like not just in your headphones and your phone is listening to you, you might start getting advertised to buy X3 because we keep saying X3, X3 or I keep saying it, but I've been enjoying it. It's about 10 minutes a day. The guy recently wrote a book, also called Weightlifting Is a Waste of Time. And it's clickbaity title but it goes into the science. It's very, very good. As a chiropractor, you might really enjoy the science behind it. But it just talks about why variable resistance training is so much more superior to constant resistance training. I don't know when the opposite of that would be. So that's what I've been doing. And I'm sure your program is great, too. But I wanted to stick with mine.   David Krohse   08:27 Nice. Well, yeah, I'm sure I'll see those Facebook ads shortly here and I'll probably interact with one and then I'll see it for the next 30 years or whatever. But yeah, and regarding courses, I mean, there was actually a question in your next level courses this morning with somebody that just started running Facebook ads, and was disappointed in their results one week in and you know, I got in there and I just said, "Hey, like retargeting is the biggest thing. Like you have to have those touch points multiple times before people make a decision." So, there's lessons there.   Jacques Hopkins   08:59 Definitely. And you know, speaking of courses, once again, I think there's room for X3 to have a course. When you buy it, they send you a link to a collection of videos on how to use the product but there's no login, there's no, they're not updating the information. What I would love to see is a little area inside of a member portal where other extra users are giving their best tips and tricks on how to use it instead of just the creator because he's obviously very biased. And that's actually something that I would love to have as a part of my course. Now that I say that. You know, every video pretty much except for the ones that have outsourced to other piano teachers is the expert. But I would love to have a section of like students who have been through the program, offering tips and tricks and advice. It's a totally different perspective and I think that a lot of courses could be doing something like.   David Krohse   09:55 Yeah, that sounds awesome.   Jacques Hopkins   09:56 Well, let's get back on the train tracks and not just about our working out goals. So, like I said, this was an excellent conversation with Abbey Ashley. She is killing it as usual. She's been in business since like 2016 and has basically doubled every year. She's going to be doing over $2 million in sales this year in 2020. And, of course, this is one of the businesses like mine, that has done really well with the pandemic. Right? More people are staying home, more people are looking to work from home, and that's exactly what she promises with her course. But like mine, you know,  it actually produces results. And the goodwill associated with her course; I know several people that have been through her program, including my new OBM/Director of Operations. She started out as a VA and took Abbey's course years ago. And then I've got a newer VA on the team who also took Abbey's course, and they speak very highly of Abbey and the course.   Jacques Hopkins   11:00 So, this was a true delight. So, without further ado, let's go ahead and play the full conversation with Abbey Ashley right now.   Jacques Hopkins   11:10 Abbey, freakin, Ashley. What's up?   Abbey Ashley   11:12 Hey!   Jacques Hopkins   11:13 I'm so pumped to have you back on. It actually feels like we haven't talked in quite some time now. I mean, we've talked plenty times on the podcast and off the podcast, too. I'm excited to dive into what's been going on the past few months and heck, probably year.   Abbey Ashley   11:26 I know. I'm definitely we're like, it's gab time. It's just time to catch up time and everyone gets to listen to it.    Jacques Hopkins   11:33 That's perfect. You know, I've had I've had people come back on, like repeat guests, and they didn't really have a lot of updates. I've been watching your stuff from the outside, even though we haven't communicated directly. A whole bunch lately. But it seems like a lot of cool things have been happening. So, let's just start with your main course that you offer. What's the latest? Have you updated it? Updated pricing? And how's that going?   Abbey Ashley   11:55 Yeah,. So, things are going great. So, we, you know. For those who don't know me - Hi! I teach people how to become virtual assistants. And we have our signature training program it's called the Savvy System. And the Savvy System is, it's our core product. Right. And that's where we send the majority of our traffic. It's kind of where we want everyone to start. And so that has been going really well. We're still, you know, we do two launches a year, our evergreen funnel that's running all the time, we finally started doing some paid ads to that. So that's starting to go and again we're not, that's kind of next year is, is paid and partnering small... And we can talk about that a little bit, but we've really just been right in the organic train for a long time. And so that organic train definitely picked up. And, you know, I'm almost cautious of who I tell people this too. But you know, for us, I know that, you know, March of 2020 was really, really hard for a lot of businesses. But for us, we teach people how to work from home. And, what a time to, you know, teach people how to work from home. So, we actually, internally, you know, we employ a lot of moms, too. So, we, you know, 90% of our team instantly became homeschooling moms in March. And so, we said, “You know what, here's what I want you to do. I want you to take your list of tasks for everyone on the team  - we just did it across the board - let's highlight the things that have to be done, and if you can get your job done in five hours a week, cool, do that.” And March was the month that we doubled without doing anything else externally. And it was like so now of course, all my employers are like, "We sold! We only worked five hours a week." I'm like, "No, not quite." But you know, so definitely, we've just been on kind of an onward track. So just looking backwards, you know, 2018, we did about $600,000 in revenue last year. 2019 was our first million-dollar year, and we are going to hit 2 million this year. And then now we're like, "Well, let's go ahead and go for four next year. That's the... We're on the track to double each year." So that's kind of what we're shooting for and what we've, you know, ran projections and everything for next year.   Jacques Hopkins   14:08 That's all... Yeah, once you're doubling every year, it's like why not keep the train rolling?   Abbey Ashley   14:12 Just keep this going.   Jacques Hopkins   14:13 Yeah, I'm kind of... mine's kind of doubling every year too. It sounds like, I'm kind of one year behind you. I'm probably going to hit right at a million dollars in revenue this year, about 500k last year, and so on. So, I'm going to try to just do everything that you're doing with just one year behind you and I think I'll be successful if I do that.   Abbey Ashley   14:29 That's amazing though. That's huge. Congratulations!   Jacques Hopkins   14:33 Thank you and congratulations to you as well. I think actually around the pandemic time... Rather we're still at a pandemic but around the original lockdowns is probably the last time I had messaged you because I was thinking about the course creators that I knew. And you know, some people like my friend Nate Dotson, who you know, he teaches people to start in person, like, sell microgreens at the farmer’s market. Like, his went down, right? I have a friend who teaches musicians to get higher paying gigs, right? All of a sudden, there were no musical gigs. His went down. But mine went very well, because everybody has learning piano on their bucket list, or a lot of people do. And so, staying home have extra time. My course did very well. And I was like, man, I bet Abbey's killing it, too. So, I remember messaging you, I was like, "You're doing well during this, this, this time to hop does everybody...   Abbey Ashley   15:23 Yeah...   Jacques Hopkins   15:23  ...opportunity to work from home.   Abbey Ashley   15:24 It's hard because you know, you don't, I don't know. You want to be sensitive, because I know, like, so many people are hurting during that time. And so, you know, I think that's why it's cool to have these conversations too. And just see, like, what works and there are so many businesses that were planning, you know, like, they should have done poorly. Right?   Jacques Hopkins   15:43 Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   15:43 And then they pivoted, and I've seen that to my husband...   Jacques Hopkins   15:46 Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   15:47 ...my husband used to work in the entertainment industry. He was in the circus. I don't know if you've ever even talked about that. But so, he knows a lot of people in the entertainment industry and I mean, that's just gone, right? But there's this one company that they were doing, like a touring show. And they had the, you know, the idea of like, could we make this a drive thru experience, rather than...   Abbey Ashley   16:07 ...they are killing it. Like, they're just hiring like, crazy. It's like 60 bucks a car or something, that they're just. And they're just absolutely killing it. Right. So, I think that there's definitely, um, you know, it definitely tested a lot of us in the area of innovation, and alright, let's test our tech and innovation and whatever skills so yeah, crazy.   Jacques Hopkins   16:07 Wow.   Jacques Hopkins   16:32 Yeah. But it takes... Not everybody's willing to pivot like that and it's cool to see that a lot of people are doing that. Whenever it looked like we were going to be locking down there was like a day, where I made very few of any sales. And I was like, "Oh, no, here it is. Here's the decline of my business. And I was freaking out a little bit. But I also didn't, and still don't have any actual employees. Did you reach a point where you're like, "Oh, no, like, I'm responsible for all these people's livelihoods.”? Were you ever worried about it back in early March?   Abbey Ashley   17:04 Yeah. So, we were still a smaller team, then. I mean, smaller for us. So, we, I think we had six full time employees. And now we're at, we're hiring 14 and 15 right now, which has been...   Jacques Hopkins   17:16 Feel like you just you were just at like, 11 last week.   Abbey Ashley   17:19 I know. It's, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy. And that's about a lot of our business model too, is really, we spend on team more than other avenues. So, but yeah, that, you know, I think we had our emergency fund in the bank. So, I knew that no matter what we had been planning, growth and hiring, so the conversations never really got to the point of like, "Oh, are we going to have to let people go?" But in my head, I was like, "Okay, well, we're definitely holding off on hiring." Which is what we did, you know, until we saw, "Oh, this is actually causing us to grow." And then yeah, so I didn't necessarily get to that point where was just like, "Oh, no!" But I don't know, I'm definitely probably a half glass full type of person, I'm sure my COO was like, "Ugh!", and I'm like, "It's fine! We're good." You know, she's the one that that helps bring me down sometimes from total optimism.   Jacques Hopkins   18:18 Yeah. And to piggyback off of what we're talking about, a little while ago, it's like, if you have if you're genuinely helping people to, then it's a good thing like you, you genuinely help people to quit their job work from home do work that they love on their own schedule. And so, you are just in the right place at the right time. You we're already making sales, but just like that your sales doubled. But it's not just you making money like you are having a direct impact and positive change on other people's lives.   Abbey Ashley   18:44 For sure.   Jacques Hopkins   18:44 And how does that make you feel? First of all.   Abbey Ashley   18:48 I mean, we've started sharing more testimonies in our like, our social media and stuff and that it's so it's, it's cool, because they come in, but just like, I don't know, just getting to really see them and see the impact, and so many people just quitting their jobs or paying off debt or doing you know, getting to be with their kids and not feel bad for it. And I don't know, it's been really cool. It's been really cool.   Jacques Hopkins   19:13 The last three people that I've hired have been through your training.   Abbey Ashley   19:18 Hey, that's cool!   Jacques Hopkins   19:20 Do you just have like a complete monopoly on this market or what?   Abbey Ashley   19:24 No, there's other people. And there's other people who do what I do really great, too. Honestly. Um, there's, I definitely I have competitors and some of them do a good job. No, there are some that are turning out really great VAs as well. But no, I'm glad that that's worked out for you and that it's good to know that we're training awesome people. I of course, think that they're awesome, but it's always great to hear and that's, you know, my next endeavor is definitely I'll be chatting with you and we're really, really have the wheels rolling on it because we want to create an opportunity for virtual assistants and clients to connect, and so we're going to be building out kind of a marketplace for that. But that's on the horizon. So, it's cool. It's cool to hear that that's, you know, kind of organically happening anyways.   Jacques Hopkins   20:13 Yes, absolutely. So, the first of those three is now my D.O.O., Director of Operations. Which I think Melissa is. Is she's your D.O.O.?   Abbey Ashley   20:23 Yeah, she started as my D.O.O., we ended up once she became an employee, we call her my COO, and that's literally girl basically runs the company.  I mean, she's phenomenal.   Jacques Hopkins   20:34 Yeah, so I've interacted with her a lot. In fact, she gave me a lot of tips a few months ago, on hiring and how you guys do some of that. So, thank you so much for putting her in contact with me about that. But yeah, I hired a D.O.O. and she started as a VA a few years ago, went through your program, worked her way up till  she got a certified OBM, and now she's a certified D.O.O. And she, through her connections found a couple of other VAs. And I guess connections is like your community, probably. And that's probably why the next two went through your program as well. But every time it seems like every time that somebody new is coming on, it's like they went through your program. And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I know. I know, Abbey, you know, personally." And they're like, "What?! You know, Abbey? That's amazing."   Abbey Ashley   21:15 That's so cool. That makes me happy.   Jacques Hopkins   21:17 So, let's talk about, I want to talk about your evergreen funnel. Okay? I know, we talked about that a lot last time you're on a long time ago. And it's a basic evergreen webinar funnel? Is that a fair way to label it?   Abbey Ashley   21:31 Yeah, it is. I mean, honestly, our funnel, it does amazing. I love it, I love that we, you know, we had a funnel that, gosh, that was back in 2018, we had a funnel that was doing fine. It was making like $4,000 a month in sales. And then I went through a program by Mariah Coz where I learned her system for developing an evergreen funnel, and it was amazing. And I flipped it on, and we basically tripled our revenue with the same amount of traffic just from this funnel. And it's literally the same funnel we have now. We need to do some tweaks to it honestly, like it's, we've learned some things. It's like, "Oh, yeah, we need to do that." But we've just been hiring so much like crazy that we don't fully have the margin, but we're going to this next year, that's going to be one of the levers we pull is just kind of increasing our conversion rates even more on that funnel.   Abbey Ashley   22:25 But even that, I mean, this year for us, like if I was to put a like a word to this year, it was definitely like the year of the metrics and, you know, becoming an operational machine and starting to like to record data, and record metrics, and to do projections. And we have like an actual org chart. We know what our org chart looks like now,  what it's going to look like in three months, and then six months, and we're planning like, "Okay, based off with these projections, will we be able to pay for these people? And how much can we spend on these different areas? And what our expense caps like? How much can we spend on Team this next year and having percentages for those?" So, it's definitely been the year of the metrics and starting to track things. And now that we have all that now we're seeing, oh, my goodness, look at all these areas, we can improve on now that we're actually tracking them, you know. So, I think that kind of this year was just that. It was definitely a data year, operational machine metrics year. Whereas next year, I think is going to be more of like an exponential growth year where it's, you know, taking the things that we've learned from our data, and making tweaks and testing and things like that.   Jacques Hopkins   23:33 That's really next level. You mentioned earlier that you really invest in your team more than anything else. So, to collect that data, is it more of a manual process from human or are you using actual software to do that?   Abbey Ashley   23:45 Most of it's manual, I mean, we have a great bookkeeper. We love our bookkeeper, and so he lets us know how much we're spending on team, percentage wise, you know, and in all these different areas. So..   Jacques Hopkins   23:57 Are you still using a vault? Or is it...   Abbey Ashley   23:59 Yeah.    Jacques Hopkins   23:59 Okay, so we share the same bookkeeper. Parker's been on the podcast.   Abbey Ashley   24:03 I mean, they're just the best.   Jacques Hopkins   24:05 They're great. Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   24:05 They're literally the best. I was just actually on the phone with him right before this call. He's so great. So yeah, we use of all for bookkeeping, and that, you know, once we got to where we couldn't do it in house anymore, and we made that transition, man, that was that was really awesome. To have a bookkeeper we could... That was kind of our level one. You know? Level two for us was coming up with a, like a project management software. So, for us, we made the switch this past year over to ClickUp and I really, really have enjoyed that it was a learning curve for me, I'm so resistant to tech change, like it's ridiculous, but of my team was driving for it. They're like, "Abbey, this is going to be so amazing." And now that I'm used to it, I'm like, "Yes!" We love our project management software now.   Abbey Ashley   24:08 Then we moved on and we created a KPI dashboard. So, we have key performance indicators for every member of the team. So, every week they're reporting on the major areas in their role. So, you know, "What is the...? How much did our list grow by? What was our goal and what was the actual?" You know. "How much? What were our conversion rates on our funnel, the goal and the actual? And so, every single person has kind of a KPI right or multiple KPIs that they're doing and then that way, and then it's literally just like black or red, right? Black, we're doing great, everything's in the black, we're fine. Red means that, "Hey, this needs some attention." Right? We're not quite hitting our goal on this KPI. And so that's where we spend some time attending to that thing. So that's been really cool, too. And we've even integrated like, our project management software. So, one of the KPIs is how many overdue tasks do you have, right? And so, we can kind of make sure that the team is keeping up with their tasks and everything like that. Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   24:33 So then step three. So, I was like, phase one... What was phase one again? But like getting the  bookkeeping, project management software, KPIs, and then now we're really working to develop like a financial dashboard and making actual projections for next year. And that was pretty much the most fun thing in the world was coming up with projections and being like, "Oh, we actually, you know, this is how much our list is growing by. This is what we should be able to do based on how well we convert our list." And we came up with numbers, and we're like, "Oh, this is actually possible. Okay, that's cool." Like, I don't know, it's just every part of it's just fun.   Jacques Hopkins   25:11 I mean, you're making me so jealous that I now understand why you're a year ahead of me. So, we're going to, I'm going to share this with this episode with my team. I'll be like, "Look, this is where we need to be in a year." Now what we're using before ClickUp?   Jacques Hopkins   26:43 Trello. Okay, so we're on Asana now. All right. And I think... So, the last time you were in the podcast was actually a focused episode and just talking about tools. So, I think I first learned about ClickUp from you. I think you were just starting to maybe move over to it. And I wasn't really using any project management software at the time. I think I was doing a lot of spreadsheets. Like, alright, I'm going to convert all my spreadsheets over to ClickUp because Abbey recommended it. And I spent maybe four hours with it, I'm just ripping my hair out. And I'm like, screw it. My spreadsheets are better. But then Colleen comes in about three months ago, Director of Operations, right. And she is an Asana expert. So, she comes in and puts the entire company in Asana. And now using the project management software is great. But setting it up was awesome.   Abbey Ashley   26:43 Trello.   Abbey Ashley   27:28 Oh yeah. Well, that's the thing is that I think that we didn't switch to ClickUp because I wanted to switch to ClickUp, or I felt we needed to do it. It was my team that was like, Abbey, you need to get your stuff together. We need to get this, you know, and so they set it up. And so, I think that's perfect. Like, and I don't think it's not a like is Asana or ClickUp better. It's like, what works best for your team, and what are they going to be able to own. Because that's been a real shift that we've been trying to make this year to is this idea of Extreme Ownership. And like, you know, my team owns their areas now. And they make decisions, and they have decision making power. And they are the ones that are, you know, so if they say, we're moving to ClickUp, like, obviously, I want to hear about it and stuff like that, but for the most part, alright, you guys want to do this? Let's do it. And so that's been, yeah, that's been really, really cool. So, I think that it's not so much the what tool you're using, as is your team on board and are they going to be able to really take the ownership with it.   Jacques Hopkins   28:37 That's really cool. You mentioned the words Extreme Ownership. That's, Hey, have you read that book Jocko Willink?   Abbey Ashley   28:43 I actually haven't. No. So I'm in I'm in a coaching program right now. It's called 2X Scale. Yeah. And it's so good. Oh my gosh. And so, they use a lot of just like these common principles. And just, it's almost like a... every, like leadership and business book you can read, they just basically make you apply the principles. So, it's almost like what they teach isn't necessarily even like, this whole new, like, secret sauce. And that's what I feel like... You know, what is this? I started this business in 2016. So, we're four years in Come on five years. Like, I feel like at this point, I finally realized it's like, there's not really this like magic bullet. It's like, there's not like this just secret sauce that I was missing out on the whole time. It's literally just taking the ideas that work and just doing them like day in and day out, and just actually doing the thing and being consistent with it. And, and just, I don't know. And so, that's a lot of what I've been learning in that coaching program is just like, Alright, here's just like, I mean, an org chart and dashboards and things like that. So...   Jacques Hopkins   29:54 Are you suggesting that this whole online business world is not that hard?   Abbey Ashley   29:58 I mean, I'm now at the point where I'm like, "Everyone needs to do this" although I do realize that it's not necessarily conducive to every personality type. But yeah, I just like, “Come on guys, you can do this.” It's not that hard.   Jacques Hopkins   30:11 What I'm hearing from you is like, there's not these, there's not these big secrets that a few people are hiding, like, most people probably know what it takes to succeed. You just got to you got to execute on the simple things over and over and over again.   Abbey Ashley   30:26 Yeah. And it's so funny, because like I mentioned, so I'm finally, I mean, for years, and I guess it's not that long. But like, I've been saying no to so many things, right? Like, there's so many like, "Oh, I should do this, I should do that." And it's like, "No, no, no, like, I just got it, I got to stick to the plan, stick to the plan, stick to the plan." And so now we're at the point where my team is doing so much of the work that I'm like, "Oh, I actually have margin to do something else now." And so, I am, you know, I'm starting a second business. And I'm so excited for it. But it's so funny how I'm like, I'm finding myself being, it's almost, I'm like a new entrepreneur with the knowledge of what I have. But starting from scratch again, and I I'm going through all the same things where I'm like, Squirrel Syndrome, and like, "Ooh, maybe this course or maybe this course. And maybe I should do this, and maybe I should do this" and I'm like all over the place again, and I've just had to go back to like, nope, zero in one thing at a time. Like, you know, build my audience. Like, just go just simplify, simplify, simplify. Do it really well, consistently and this thing is going to work. But man, I get the struggle. And like a new fresh way again, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, it is really hard to just be consistent and stick to the path when you're a new entrepreneur."   Jacques Hopkins   31:43 That's well said, I mean, because look at you and your success. And you're kind of taking a step back and starting a second business now. And you're even struggling, but you got to remind yourself of those things. Now, you've mentioned two programs so far, in the short time we spent together already. And that's one thing I really admire about you is you're always learning from people that are doing bigger, more things than you. So, let's jump back to 2018, I think it was, when you first sign up for Mariah Coz's. I think that's called The Accelerator. Right?   Abbey Ashley   32:14 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   32:14 I know, multiple people have come on and said that that was a big catalyst to their success. You specifically said that changing over to the evergreen funnel that you have now that you learn from her tripled your revenue, was it?   Abbey Ashley   32:29 Yeah. Yeah. Like our funnel revenue,   Jacques Hopkins   32:33 The revenue coming from the funnel. So, what did what did your funnel look like before?   Abbey Ashley   32:37 So, there was not really urgency or scarcity, there was just a lot of emails, and you know, the big, I mean, honestly, just adding deadlines to the funnel I think was a huge part of it too. We're big, big deadline, funnel fans. So, you know, having a really great, she kind of refined my webinar a little bit, my emails that follow up, but it I mean, it is a pretty simple process. It's the, you know, it's download my freebie, on the thank you page "Hey, here's this webinar, you can access it immediately." If they don't, I'll send them some follow up emails about the webinar. In that webinar, I pitch. So that webinar, the format of the webinar is really similar to the it's like condensed, not quite as pushy version of the like, Expert Secrets, like ClickFunnels-webinar style. So that's at least the way that I've done my webinars - tons of social proof, tons of like, and here's all this other stuff that you get to you know - and then they have, you know, an actual deadline of when it's going to go away, and there's a timer, and it really does go away. And so that's where we have the funnel that's running all the time. And then if it ends, they have to wait till one of our live launches to purchase. So, we do two live launches a year. And so, and then we have a secondary product that they can, once they purchase, it's like, "Oh, here's a really natural upsell." So, 50% of our people who buy our program end up doing our upsell, because they just, they really go hand in hand.   Jacques Hopkins   34:09 Very, very cool. Yeah, I was, I opted in for your funnel a few weeks ago, just to get caught up on what it was looking like these days. And it really is simple. Right? And, you know, I'll have people come through my world and I'll be coaching them a little bit. And they don't have any sort of evergreen funnel set up. And I'm like, "Look, the simplest funnel is also like one of the most effective." Like a simple evergreen webinar funnel. Like, they're like, "Okay, what should the opt in be?" I'm like "The opt in is the webinar." Like it's free training. Then you take them straight to that training, don't have them schedule a time like we used to do with ever webinar and all that.   Abbey Ashley   34:44 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   34:44 Take them straight to the free training and then it doesn't end there. Like if they don't buy you have a few days where you send out emails and then have a deadline and that's exactly what yours looks like. One thing that really jumped out at me about yours that I'm not doing with mine: You let people skip around the video even. You've got like an hour video, and I'm pretty sure they can fast, you know, skip ahead and all that. What's the thought process there? Because normally people say just, you don't want them to be able to do that.   Abbey Ashley   35:10 I mean, my methodology... I am, so again, Mariah, she's a good friend/mentor of mine. She talks about this whole idea of like, the tortoise, and the hare, right? And so, your buyers, your customers are, some of them are tortoises and some of them are hares. And so, some of them are the people that are going to, they just need time, they're going to go through your launch four or five times. And then finally, after they've been on your list for two and a half years, they take the leap, and probably after like asking 1000 questions on tap, right? They're the hares, they just really need to like take or they're the tortoises, they need to take the time to make that decision.   Abbey Ashley   35:46 And then there's the hares. They're the people that are - and I am so a hare, oh my gosh, like, I know, like, I bought so many programs that people have contacted me afterwards and they're like, "How did you even find this? I'm not even selling this anymore. You found a way to buy it." And I'm like, I just heard about you on a podcast, and I googled the crap out of you until I found a link to buy. And that is me. So, I definitely am a, you know, like, if somebody wants to buy my thing, like buy my thing. Now, I think that there is an element of still having urgency. And that's why we don't have a, you know, you can't just go to my website and buy my course necessarily, but like, really quickly, you can find it. I mean, there's so many avenues to get to the course that way. And in fact, I need to, we have like a waitlist instead. And so, one of the things that it's on my list to do I just haven't done yet is like, basically right after somebody does the waitlist, saying like, "Oh, actually you can buy now." You know, because again, if you're a hare and you just want to buy it, then like, give them the chance. Just there you go.   Jacques Hopkins   36:54 Very interesting. Yeah. And Mariah’s program, The Accelerator, I want to say it's like a $10,000, ballpark...   Abbey Ashley   36:59 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   37:00 It's not a cheap program by any means. But my understanding about it as well, is that it's not just a course, like it's group coaching even. Did you have somebody actually, like review your funnel?   Abbey Ashley   37:12 Yeah, so when I started with her back in 2018, she had a, like a really like, high touch program, that was I paid a lot more for. And there were four of us in it. And so, we like I actually, like, flew up to Boston...   Jacques Hopkins   37:27 Holy smokes!   Abbey Ashley   37:27 ...and went out with her and like, did the whole, like, thing. And so that's what I did with her. So, it was a really quick turnaround. And it was a yearlong program. And so, that: she does not offer that anymore, but you know, and but I've still I've stayed in the group, and I hang out in her program still a lot. And it's your, it's the exact same information that she taught to us during that, like, it's literally the exact same exercises and stuff that's in there. So yeah, I think that it's definitely an investment. And I know that that's where I think, and I know that you have like, like your course and all of that kind of stuff too. So, I feel like it would be a really good progression for a lot of people. It's like kind of start here, then you know, develop that course, get your idea, your audience, all of that kind of stuff. Move on to evergreen engines, then once you've, you know, gone on beyond that, then there's, you know, this 2X Scale that I'm in once you're at like, a million dollars or whatever. I mean, that's at least what I've gone through.   Jacques Hopkins   38:20 Yeah, excellent. No, I go through a lot of people's funnels the people that I know are crushing it. I go through their funnel, so you know I was going through yours not just for research for this this episode coming out but also just like "Hey, I know you're killing it. Let me see if you're doing something I'm not doing" and I'd certainly have done the same with say Mariah Coz and one thing that was interesting going through her funnel is like your testimonials throughout,  seeing you in her in her funnel talking about her program.   Abbey Ashley   38:24 There are other programs out there too, but if someone's just like, "Abbey, I want to do what you did" like I would literally... You probably teach the stuff that I just kind of figured out on my own and I wish I would have had a course to go through and then you know advance on to these other programs. So that would probably be someone's like "Give me the path." That's the path I would tell people to go down.   Abbey Ashley   39:14 And then I think that there's a huge element to of just, man, just all the funnel and all the right strategies and all of that is great, but if you don't have the audience, I think that it's just where we just miss so much too is just pick. Like for me like we picked an organic traffic source and went all in on it. I guess technically too for us we went I would do really in depth, SEO-rich, thousand-word blog posts and put them on Pinterest, and I kind of feel like I did that a little bit more in like the wild, wild west days of Pinterest. I feel like maybe it would be a little harder, but I don't know like Pinterest to me is still just so amazing. Like I love Pinterest. We still get great results with our Pinterest strategy. And then for me, I started a Facebook group too. And so those, we just hit 50,000 members in that group. So, like we, and it just brings us so many leads. So, Facebook and Pinterest were the ones we went all in on. Right?   Jacques Hopkins   40:13 Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   40:14 And just having that good, organic strategy is amazing. And then you can... and so what we're doing is we have this rich organic strategy. And then now we're finally like, adding, so good organic audience. And awesome, you know, evergreen funnel, and then you can use the like the fuel of paid advertising to kind of add to that flame that's already going. And I think that's at least what has worked for us and I'm so glad that we did it because I had my ads account shut down earlier this year. And it's like, man, that's like Our... we didn't have a blip in sales, because we weren't really doing many ads. I was actually I hired somebody to do ads and that was, uh, yeah, when we got shut down, and I was just like, "Meh. Okay, well, let's try this again." So, we you know, it wasn't it was really not that big of a deal but like, um, yeah, it's, it's like, gosh, to have some kind of organic method. If I were starting all over today, I would probably do like, a good Pinterest strategy paired with either a podcast or YouTube. Like, I think that those are kind of the hot ones right now, in my opinion, to be able to grow an audience organically really quickly.   Jacques Hopkins   41:30 Yeah, I completely agree. I recommend people when they're starting out, you know that you've got to build the audience. They're... people skip that step. I don't know why. But pick one, one platform, don't pick six. Pick one: YouTube, podcast. Your audience was probably all over Pinterest, that's why it worked so well. A good strategy and the people were there, right? A lot of a lot just like stay-at-home moms, I'm guessing.   Abbey Ashley   41:53 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   41:54 I know my wife uses Pinterest a ton and so yeah, I'm completely in agreement with you there. I want to ask you a little bit about the Facebook group: You said you just cross over 50,000 people there.   Abbey Ashley   42:04 Yep.   Jacques Hopkins   42:05 That's, that's free. Do you have a separate Facebook group once somebody purchases the course?   Abbey Ashley   42:10 We do. Yeah. So, we host our communities for our paid programs on Facebook as well. So, since we have two products, each one of them has their own separate Facebook group and that's where we'll do live streams and things like that.   Jacques Hopkins   42:22 So, the free group, I for my piano audience, I just have one group for the paid members, I've always resisted creating a free one. And it's because of my evergreen funnel, right? How do you get around the fact that everybody's got a different deadline and interacting with each other in the free group?   Abbey Ashley   42:38 You know what? We just tell people, like, we don't really make it a secret. Like, it's just a, like, "Hey, we launch our course twice a year. If you missed the last launch, then you get a onetime opportunity through this webinar." And someone's like, I want to join now we're like, "Cool, here's the webinar. This is how you join." And if someone's like, "Hey, that link didn't work." It's like, "Cool, because you've already been through the webinar" or like, email us, and we'll see if we can reset it for you. But it's, yeah, we're just really transparent with it. I don't know. It's not a like, this, like secret thing. I feel like.   Jacques Hopkins   43:13 It's interesting. It's amazing how far just honesty can get you, right?   Abbey Ashley   43:17 Oh, my gosh, I literally the other day, I signed up for a webinar and it was one of those, like, pick the time and it's in 15 minutes. And like, oh, there's going to there's a thousand people max on here. And she's like, literally, like, in the webinar being like, "Oh, ha-ha, Rick, that's hilarious in the comments." And I'm like, “This is not real, like, what are you doing?" Like, it's just now, like, I remember, you know, like two years ago when that was like, really, really a thing. But now it just feels so icky to me. I'm just like, "Why are you doing this? This is not real. It's so weird."   Jacques Hopkins   43:53 It got really popular. I did it for like a year and a half, not, maybe not quite to that extreme but I was using EverWebinar. People had to schedule the time slot. I never directly said it was live. And I thought that that just that alone would mean that what I was doing was okay. But when I switched over, I think it was the beginning of this year to a system that's very similar to yours, where it's just like you opt in and then you get the video and it plays, I actually had obviously far less complaints and then conversion rate was, actually went up.   Abbey Ashley   44:25 Yeah. Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   44:27 It's amazing.   Abbey Ashley   44:28 Yeah, it's just it's an on-demand training. Like I don't expect webinars to be live, like, I don't know.    Jacques Hopkins   44:35 But you know! But you're on the inside.   Abbey Ashley   44:37 I know. And so maybe, I don't know. I don't know.   Jacques Hopkins   44:40 Yeah. So, Facebook groups, any plans in the future to maybe move your paid groups off of Facebook?   Abbey Ashley   44:49 No way, Jose.   Jacques Hopkins   44:50 Why not? I do.   Abbey Ashley   44:52 I mean I... Do you?   Jacques Hopkins   44:54 Yeah.   Abbey Ashley   44:55 I know people who have done it and their engagement just dropped so much because they... like it's just another platform like, I won't check a group if it's not on Facebook. And I understand some people don't have Facebook, which is why we say our group is a bonus. It's also means that we can remove people from the group if we need to, which we had to do in the past, because it's a bonus. It's not something you pay for. It's a bonus. So, um, and all the live streams that happen in there and everything are a bonus. And so no, it's working now and it’s, so I don't have I don't have any plans to change. It's interesting that you've switched over.   Jacques Hopkins   45:33 No, I haven't yet. I haven't yet. I'm going to.   Abbey Ashley   45:36 Oh, I was going to say, to the dark side. I'm just kidding.    Jacques Hopkins   45:38 No, I don't know.    Abbey Ashley   45:39 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins   45:40 I haven't I haven't, you know, we haven't moved over yet. So, I'll tell you, I'll tell you my vision. By the way, have you seen like, have you seen the Social Dilemma?   Abbey Ashley   45:47 I have not watched it.   Jacques Hopkins   45:49 You know what it is though, right?   Abbey Ashley   45:50 Yes, I know what it is. I just don't want to watch it.   Jacques Hopkins   45:53 Yeah, you need to watch it.   Abbey Ashley   45:54 I know. Okay, I'll do it.   Jacques Hopkins   45:56 First of all, I had these plans to move off Facebook even before watching the Social Dilemma. And if anybody's listening to this, it's just a documentary on Netflix about some of the kind of evil things that these social media companies do.   Abbey Ashley   46:08 Oh yeah. And I believe it.   Jacques Hopkins   46:10 Yeah, they don't if I could go on a whole tangent there and it's probably not wise for this particular discussion, especially since you haven't seen it. But my thing is I want people to learn piano. Like that's my goal. And I know for me, like, if I go to Facebook for a particular purpose, it gets very, very, very easy to get distracted: notifications, ads, messages, whatever. And so, if somebody has the good intention of logging in, to go to the Facebook group to interact with piano students, but then gets distracted to me that takes away from the program. There is the other side of the coin, I recognize that somebody could be on Facebook, goofing off, and then see the piano group and be like, "Oh, yeah, I got to get back to my piano lessons." I get that part of it. But to me, the more focus the better.   Jacques Hopkins   46:58 So, my vision is to have my course and community in the same place.   Abbey Ashley   47:02 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   47:03 Right. I don't want to do like a Circle or Mighty Networks, where it's like, okay, now, you've got the course over here, and then you've got your community over here. And both are separate from Facebook. I want it all in the same place. And then I want to be able to wrap that up and people access that from the web and a mobile app.   Abbey Ashley   47:18 That's pretty cool. No, I could see that. I could see that being beneficial. Let me know how it goes.   Jacques Hopkins   47:24 Keep you posted. Yeah, we're working on it right now. I keep teasing it to the audience because I won't tell them what platform I'm using.   Abbey Ashley   47:30 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins   47:30 Because it's, it's actually like I make it sound simple. But it's actually like, hardly anybody allows you to do that.   Abbey Ashley   47:37 Yeah, it's true.   Jacques Hopkins   47:38 Yeah. Where's your course hosted?   Abbey Ashley   47:41 We...   Jacques Hopkins   47:42 Teachable?   Abbey Ashley   47:43 Err, it is Teachable but we're switching. You know, I haven't publicly told anyone that.   Jacques Hopkins   47:49 What does it rhyme with? What is the new one rhyme... no, I'm just kidding.   Abbey Ashley   47:52 It rhymes with hajabi.   Jacques Hopkins   47:57 So many, so many possibilities. It could be wujabi, it could be yajabi. So, the platform we won't name has community built in.   Abbey Ashley   48:09 Huh. Interesting.   Jacques Hopkins   48:11 Can you tell us why you're moving over?   Abbey Ashley   48:13 Honestly, it was a, yeah, two things. Number one, again it was my team, my Senior Director of Product said, we need to switch this. Here's all the reasons why. And she's like, this is how we'll do it. She came up with a plan. And I said, flip the switch. Um, the biggest thing for us even though it's going to be it's.. we're getting really close to switching over. The biggest thing is that we use SamCart for our payment processing, and Teachable just won't integrate with SamCart, despite our many, many requests not to not for at least cancellations. It's fine for getting people in but if somebody does fail out, or you know, we let them cancel for whatever reason, or a membership where we're having, you know, more cancellations, because it's, it is a cancel anytime thing; we still have to do that manually, like, I mean, there's some apps that can do some of it, but it's just like, it literally could be like one click of a button on Kajabi where we can do the cancellation. So yeah, that's going to free up a lot of our time because we, you know, we're letting in so many students a month that obviously, our refund rate isn't huge or cancellation rate isn't huge but the amount that we do have, we're just we're going to save time on that cancellation process. So that's why we're switching   Jacques Hopkins   49:34 Kajabi is a good choice. I've done a deep dive. The past like six months, I've researched all of them because I want to not only make the best choice for my piano students, but also share these findings with the audience too. And so, I think you're making a wise choice there. Not a huge fan of teachable. I've actually heard about a lot of people switching off of it lately to various platforms.   Abbey Ashley   49:54 You know, and this is where you know, my new business is going to be, you know, more tech. It's, you know, a SAS marketplace. And the more than I'm learning and observing, and I mean, this is good for my own business too, and I don't know if I do this as well as I should but gosh, it's so important to listen to your customers. Like, you just, just ask them like, I don't know, even developing this new product. So, you know, we have the audience already for it. It's going to be VAs. So, I came up with a little I came up with my idea for it, here's my little mock up. And then I just sent out a survey, we got 250 responses, and it was like, pure gold. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like, you guys have better ideas for this thing than I do." Like, it was genius, what they gave me and I'm just like, I just need to tap into that more often because my audience is amazing. And they know what they want, and they can literally tell me what they're going to pay for, and I can see trends and things like that. So that's, I mean, if anyway, I think in one of our old episodes, I did kind of how the Virtual Savvy came to be. But I wasn't even teaching virtual assistants at first. I was just building an audience about anything online business that I knew. And I didn't know very much, right, like I had been on an online business for like a year. But I'm like, let me just start blogging about what I do know, and talking about what I do know, and going on podcast with what I do know. And then once I got an email list of like a thousand people, I was like, "What do you guys want to learn?" And literally, they built my training program. They're like, this is what we want to learn. And I said, "Oh, okay." And that's when the Virtual Savvy became, we train virtual assistants before, it was just online marketing, passion to profit, or whatever. Like, you know, there's like, the generic courses that everybody does, when they don't know what the heck they're doing, which is what I had in the beginning. And then, you know, I just listened to my audience. And I think that if you just do that you'll be successful.   Jacques Hopkins   51:45 There's really two layers of listening to your audience. They're like, when you're just starting out, you can start out broad and start putting out content and see what's what resonates. That's what you did when you first started. But then once you have an established business, it's important to keep listening to them to see what else they need help with, or how what you're doing could be even better. I know that just the very last person that I interviewed; it's going to be the episode right before you - Chris Liepe. His origin story is very similar to that even though he started like a year ago, not four years ago. He was in music, and he plays guitar, teaches guitar, drums, singing. He just started putting out music content. And what really resonated with people was the singing part. So that's how he really figured out his particular niche.   Abbey Ashley   52:28 Yep.   Jacques Hopkins   52:29 It's one of those things like we were talking about earlier. It's like, it's simple, but not a lot of people do it.   Abbey Ashley   52:34 Yeah. Yep. Is it scary. I think we want to have like the plan for everything. And it has to be part of your plan, like you will pivot, you will, you know, things will shift. And that's totally okay.   Jacques Hopkins   52:46 So, let's jump back to it to a loop that still open 2X Scale, I think is the program that you're maybe in now like...   Abbey Ashley   52:53 Yeah!   Jacques Hopkins   52:54 You keep learning from more people. I don't know much about this program. I know a good amount about Mariah Coz. So, tell me what attracted you to this program and what is it for you?   Abbey Ashley   53:02 You know, I think, at that point, so I was, at that point, a million-dollar business owner, and this was like this, like epitome of thing that I was like, I've been working at this for so long. And I got to this like, "Uh, now what do I do?" Right? And so, I'm very much like, I love, love coaching, like learning from people who've gone before me, that's just one of my, you know, one of the things even internally, we came up with this whole, like vision statement. And one of the things is like What do we do? What do we do that's different? And we take these solid principles, we learn from coaching, we learn from courses, but we also add in our own creativity and our own knowledge and things like that, too. But like, I love basing what I do off of proven strategy. So, I'm always looking for like, okay, who's done the next thing, right?   Abbey Ashley   53:47 So, like, I did this one program to get to a million dollars. And now like, who's doing $10 million? Let me go find those people and who teaches how to do that. And so, I really liked the structure 2X. It's really getting back to basics. Like I said, like we've developed org charts and that financial dashboard, it's like all this super exciting stuff. But it's the basic. It's basic business principles and to be honest, not even, like a lot of the coaches aren't necessarily like online business owners. They're just, they're people who have just grown big, you know, million multi-million dollar $10 million businesses. And so, they're doing a lot of the coaching. So, you meet one on one with a coach, you come up with a plan. They do these little 90-day sprints. You come up with goals for those, and then you just do them. And so that's where we're at. And so, I would love I mean, and now I'm already like, okay, so once I get to like the $10 million mark, like I've already I've already found a program that I think I want to do to get me from 10 to 100. You know? And so, what does that look like? So that's, um, I'm always like, keeping like my feelers out for, you know, coaching programs and things that yeah, that I feel like,
112 minutes | 3 months ago
159: Boost Your YouTube Channel with Facebook Ads? (Featuring Chris Liepe)
Thanksgiving is behind us and the end of the year approaching fast! Our guest today is Chris Liepe, who is all about helping people find their voice through his online singing course. Chris had some great insights on the legacy and long-term thinking that make so much sense to consider at this introspective time of year. He also has had some unique success with a very unusual approach to ads and marketing. We get into all that and much more in the interview, so buckle up and enjoy! “Find a mentor, and do it! Just go for it.” – Chris Liepe In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) Did David do his homework? (2:29) A post-mortem on some live piano webinars I recently did (8:23) Thoughts on pricing model experiments (10:09) An update on my new platform (12:22) Setting the stage for today’s interview (12:56) How Chris got into the online course world (25:00) An unusual strategy that yielded surprising results (29:34) Drilling down into different ads and outcomes (33:44) Active vs. passive interactions (35:12) How Chris’s strategy is evolving (39:27) Building a strong CTA and figuring out what to promote where (43:16) Walking through Chris’s funnel (47:30) Comparing scarcity and framing (55:05) What I love about Chris’s approach to value (59:16) Pricing considerations (1:01:26) Tools, teams, and content (1:07:46) The importance of mindset (1:15:52) Asking the right questions (1:17:17) Thinking about legacy (1:19:05) Hindsight on branding choices Chris made early on (1:23:53) Feedback from Chris’s students (1:27:23) Can anyone learn to sing? (1:34:24) Advice for new and aspiring course creators (1:37:40) Where to find Chris online (1:38:19) Thoughts on being willing to do something embarrassing (1:39:46) Mindset and marketing (1:41:48) Winning long-term customers (1:42:18) “Ring the bell” moments (1:47:19) Go-to karaoke songs (1:48:39) Learning from other course creators + leveraging YouTube (1:51:36) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Chris’s website Discover Your Voice Resources and Recommendations Elementor Teachable JamPlay Fix This Next Episode 104 Granola Face Skincare Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins 00:02 Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course and they're making a living doing it. Jacques Hopkins 00:12 But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses. Jacques Hopkins 00:24 Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins, and this is the Online Course Show. Jacques Hopkins 00:33 And off we go, welcome aboard glad you're with us. This is the Online Course Show and I'm your host, Jacques Hopkins. And here with me is our cohost. What's going on Dr. K? David Krohse 00:42 Dude, I'm still up here shivering from my cold shower this morning. Jacques Hopkins 00:45 You did your homework? David Krohse 00:47 Yeah, but I left it till the last minute. So, I'm talking about like, 40 minutes ago, Jacques Hopkins 00:51 Alright, a little context... David Krohse 00:53 Worst idea ever. Jacques Hopkins 00:54 A little context. I gave you some homework last week on the last episode. There's a lot of benefits to cold showers. So, what did you do? Which protocol did you do? Just a few seconds? David Krohse 01:05 Uhm no. I tried to do yours and so just all cold. And it's pretty cold up here in Iowa. I think the water might be colder up here than down where you're at. But... Jacques Hopkins 01:16 Probably. David Krohse 01:16 So basically, yeah, I mean, I just to be totally honest, today, like my head and face are clean and my armpits are clean. The rest was like water only. I was just like, I'm done. Jacques Hopkins 01:22 And you feel amazing now, don't you? David Krohse 01:30 No. I'm like, my teeth are still chattering. No, no, but I will say like, I mean, it was kind of this PTSD moment. So, I mean, my sport, I was “Swimmer Dave,” I mean, that was who I was up through all of high school. And my high school swimming team, we had practice 5:45 every morning, three days a week. We had to jump into this pool and our coach had to have kept it at like 65 or something. So, four years of jumping into 65-degree pool three days a week, and at 5:45 in the morning, it was like, it was a bad, bad memory of those moments. Jacques Hopkins 02:08 Okay, so it sounds like this is not going to be part of your regular routine, but you tried it. Now you can say you've done it. David Krohse 02:14 Yes. Jacques Hopkins 02:15 Okay. David Krohse 02:15 And maybe the day will be easier. Like you say. Jacques Hopkins 02:18 You got to keep us posted because you just did it, right? There are advantages that are beyond actually being in the cold water. But let's move forward. Let's talk a little bit about courses. I have a little update I want to share with the audience. Last time I mentioned that I had some upcoming live webinars. Sure, you remember that. Well, it didn't go so well. David Krohse 02:39 Alright, I jumped on for a little bit of the stack in one of them. Jacques Hopkins 02:43 Okay. So, I'll say the first one didn't go so well. When I do live webinars, I like to do two to cover, really, all time zones. So, I did one in the evening and then the next day kind of midday. The first one did not go so well. And it didn't go so well purely from the metric of zero sales actually. None. No sales. The second one, I had four sales. What's the difference? There was actually less people on the second, okay. So, here's a huge lesson learned and I, I mean, I'm not sure why I did this, it was kind of a silly mistake, but let me ask you this, David, when you are testing something, how many variables should there be? David Krohse 03:23 Well, ideally, just one. Jacques Hopkins 03:24 Ideally, one, right? You want as few variables as possible because if you have multiple variables, then you don't really know what, either, what worked or what didn't work, right? And the problem with my first webinars, I had two variables instead of one. Okay so a little more context, I was preselling kind of my new offer. I'm redoing my course right now I have a couple of new courses, new features to my offer. Not everything's ready yet, but I wanted to presell it, get a little market validation. So, I kind of packaged everything up and gave it a new name for the package and a new price point, $997. I've never sold my piano course for that much. And this was a test to see if I could sell it for that much and if it was worth it, and how people responded to that. Jacques Hopkins 04:10 So, I had a whole new stack with that price. But I also really redid how I presented the webinar too. Okay, so I presented it for the first time I was live and on camera the entire time. The problem with that is I couldn't read from a script at all. So, is it winged or wanged? I wanged the whole thing. I winged the whole thing. I'm not sure which was proper English, if either one of those is David Krohse 04:36 it's definitely not wanged. Jacques Hopkins 04:38 I'm going with it, David. I'm going to say wanged the whole thing. But I've presented this so many times that I thought I had it, but I didn't. I didn't have it. I left out so much good stuff, when I got to the point where I was at my keyboard I didn't execute it as near as well as I had when I prerecorded it. I used Webinar Jam, which allows you to do what they call video injections. So normally when I do a live webinar, there's several parts where I inject a video, and I'm still there, I'm still watching and looking at the comments go through but I'm able to pre-do a few things, and it makes it a lot easier on me. It also allows me some really nice built-in, like, water breaks. And I'm just talking for two, two and a half hours straight. Jacques Hopkins 05:23 So, I finished the webinar on I think it was a Wednesday night maybe and didn't make any sales. It had been a while since I hadn't made a sale on a webinar. But it was weird. I wasn't really, I wasn't discouraged or anything. I was just, I was very intent on figuring out what the problem was. And I was like, man, you goofball! You change the price, but you also completely changed what you did. And so, I went back and watched my last live webinar that night from April and watched it. And I was like, this is so much better than what I just did, like so much better, so much more compelling. And I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody watching, it's like, I want to buy this so much better based on this presentation than what I just did. So that night, I was like, "Okay, I've got to go back for tomorrow's webinar, I've got to go back and present it exactly like I did in April, other than the offer and the price." And I did and I made four sales, even though there was only like 60 people on. I think there was 90 on the first one, 60 on the second one. So, what do you think about all that? David Krohse 06:25 Yeah, it's very interesting. So, the four sales that second day, were at that $997 price point? Jacques Hopkins 06:30 Yes. I think three of them were the full price and then one of them was a payment plan. David Krohse 06:36 Okay. Jacques Hopkins 06:36 But it was all for that big, big package. David Krohse 06:39 I mean, that's double your current top-level package, correct? Jacques Hopkins 06:43 Right. Current top-level package is $497. David Krohse 06:46 Yeah. Jacques Hopkins 06:47 Interesting, though, right? David Krohse 06:48 So, what do you think going forward? Like, what... Jacques Hopkins 06:50 Well, I have a plan going forward and that's a little bit different than this. But the main takeaway I wanted for the audience is that, you know, I just one thing I do with this podcast is I just peel back the curtain, I'm very transparent about how I run and the things I'm doing with my online piano course. And people seem to get value out of that. So, the main lesson is, hey, when you're testing something new, one variable, you goofball! And that's, that was my problem. Jacques Hopkins 07:15 Going forward, I'm just going to do a basic split test. So, I have my funnel in place that's working, that's still making sale, I mean, it's made sales this morning. So, I'm going to create a new version of my evergreen webinar, and sales video sales page, and some of the emails that go out. And when somebody opts into my funnel, 50%, will go down the existing path unchanged, 50% will go down the new path. And with the new path of the funnel, I'm going to change as little as possible, I'm just going to change anything related to the offer and the price. And then let that run for a month, six weeks, collect the data, right? And it's not as simple as necessarily quantity of sales or even revenue, you got to look at the big picture, I'm expecting revenue to actually be similar. I mean, I would expect to get less students at the higher price point. But then it's like, how engaged and interactive are those new people and just really, really look at it and make a good decision on the price going forward. I've never tried to sell it at $997 before. And if the answer is no, $497 is better, I'm good with that answer, but I won't know until I fully test it. David Krohse 08:22 Okay. I mean, do you want to know what I basically thought you were heading toward as far as the main options? Jacques Hopkins 08:28 Yeah, go ahead. David Krohse 08:29 I mean, I thought that the lowest package was going to be the $497. That would include, like, let's say, three or six months in your community, and then I thought there would be like a $700 or $800 package that would have lifetime access to the community and all the extra courses. Jacques Hopkins 08:50 Yeah, so I pitched the, the... David Krohse 08:53 And I thought, actually, you were going to start to charge for your community. If somebody just bought the six month one that you might actually charge. Jacques Hopkins 08:59 Yeah, it's a fair point, a fair idea. It's something I've flirted with. But that's certainly more complicated. And I'm not quite ready to try that yet. That might be something I try down the road. But right now, we just want to see can I offer something, can I offer a piano learning experience that people will buy and use and succeed with at $997? I actually made sales, which is good. Now I'm ready to go to the next step, which is to split test it with my existing working funnel - evergreen. And then once I come out of that, not to say I won't, you know, ideally, I would always kind of have a split test of some sort going. And that's, that's it's easy to get lazy with that and I certainly have but doing something where you're kind of charging for the community, charging for the interaction more on a monthly basis subscription, that could be something I split-test down the road as well. David Krohse 09:46 Gotcha. Well, I mean, I definitely feel like I mean, the way that I look at the price is that anybody that can spend $500 on a piano course can spend $1000. So... Jacques Hopkins 09:55 Theoretically. David Krohse 09:56 I mean, it's definitely... What's that? Jacques Hopkins 09:57 Theoretically, but then where do you draw the line? David Krohse 10:00 Right. Jacques Hopkins 10:02 That's a little bit of a slippery slope, right? If they can pay $1000, they could pay $2000. David Krohse 10:07 Right. So, are these new people going straight into your new platform? Jacques Hopkins 10:10 No. David Krohse 10:12 No? Are you ready to announce that? Jacques Hopkins 10:14 No, I'm close, man. We're still, we're still building it up. People are constantly asking me, what is the new platform? No, I feel, I feel pretty good about it at this point. I think one of the reasons people keep asking me is some people are either new and want to make sure they're starting with the right platform for them, or other people are actually thinking about switching. So, they want to see what I'm going with, because they know I've looked into all of them at a very deep level. And so, I feel bad that people are maybe waiting to launch or waiting to do certain things until I announce, but I want to make it clear that the platform that I pick, just because I pick it, doesn't mean it's the right fit for you, especially if you're more on the beginner side of things. I have just about 6,000 total students, getting more every day. And I've been doing this for almost eight years as well. And so, I'm, what I'm using is actually not going to be a good thing for beginners. It's not Teachable. It's not Kajabi. Those are great for beginners. It's not one of those. And if you're a beginner, then look into one of those. There's some others. MembersPRO is great. I'm not using MembersPRO. MembersPRO is great, though. There's some, man, there's a lot out there. A lot of people are using like Podia, and New Zenler and even Kartra - I have been hearing a lot of people using Kartra lately. David Krohse 11:34 Sure. Jacques Hopkins 11:36 There's a lot of good ones out there. And none of those are the ones I'm using but... Within a couple of weeks, I'll actually say what I'm using, and we'll be rolling new students onto the new platform, probably early January. David Krohse 11:51 All right. Well, at some point, you'll have to tell us your top pick, like for the two different types of people like... Jacques Hopkins 11:57 Yeah. David Krohse 11:57 ...number one, somebody that already has an audience. So, we're pretty sure that they're going to like, they already have the ball rolling, and then somebody that's just truly like bootstrapping mode just starting, doesn't have the audience yet. Jacques Hopkins 12:09 Perfect. David Krohse 12:10 You should give us those two recommendations, and actually tell us what you would choose if you were in those shoes. Jacques Hopkins 12:17 I love it. Let's plan for that in a couple of weeks. We'll do that for sure. Okay, well, let's go ahead and transition to our main conversation of the day. I got to talk with Chris Liepe, fellow music niche person. And he has found success with his online course very fast, very, very, very fast. Did a lot of lot of things right. Also got a little lucky with something that's really cool. So, so we'll talk about it as usual, you and I will talk about it on the back end. So, without further ado, here is the full conversation between myself and Chris Liepe. Jacques Hopkins 12:57 Hey, Chris, welcome to the Online Course Show. Chris Liepe 13:00 Thank you. Jacques Hopkins 13:01 My understanding is that you, you haven't really been doing this all that long and actually found success pretty quickly. Like, what's your background and when did you get the idea to start an online course? Chris Liepe 13:13 Yeah, well, I've been, I've been teaching online for a long time. I started back in 2009, working with a company called JamPlay. And I was one of their early instructors teaching guitar. And that was kind of funny too, because prior to working with them, I had worked at a big recording studio in Indiana. It was the recording wing of Sweetwater Sound, which is, they're the biggest music technology retailer out there. And I was one of their lead studio engineers. And I got that job right out of college. And one of my main jobs was jingle writing, as well as producing other acts which included working with lots of vocalists. And during that time, I honed my vocal abilities, you know, like crazy there. Also got to play a lot of guitar, do a lot of writing. And, you know, that was a great job, but it was far away from where I grew up, which is in Colorado, and my wife and I really wanted to get back to Colorado. So, we moved back there, and I met through some mutual friends, the guys who were starting JamPlay, and they had started a year earlier, and we're looking for guitar teachers. And up to that point, I taught guitar, you know, in music stores and kind of at side gig kinds of things. But I hadn't done any sort of video instruction. As a matter of fact, the Sweetwater guys tried to get me to do some of that stuff on their, you know, on their platform, and I was just horrible at it. I was nervous and I had too many people feeding me ideas at the same time and just wasn't, wasn't good. So, I kind of considered that a failure there. But when JamPlay asked me to do it, it's like I could use some extra money. So, I started teaching video guitar lessons for them and they ended up putting them on their subscription website. And this was back in 2009. And I did that for three years for them. I was one of their main teachers. And then I came on full time with them, helping them produce other guitar players’ courses. And so, I would, I would film them, I would help them come up with ideas, and I got to work with some awesome guitar players, and you know, Brent Mason, Phil Keaggy, lots of, you know, guitars from famous bands, as they started to do their artists series, I was the guy heading all that up, and helping these guys who are not teachers come up with cool things to do for JamPlay. Chris Liepe 15:41 And then, about three years after I went full time, JamPlay was looking pretty seriously at selling their company. And I was like, man, you know, I don't own any of this company and I've put in a lot of time, I feel like I've really helped build this place. And I was seeing a bit more of the online climate, you know, I mean, more and more people were doing their own courses, and a good friend of mine, David Wallimann, who I met through JamPlay, had already done his own website, and has already started his own YouTube channel. And we had kept up a little bit over the years, but it was at a live event that we were doing for JamPlay, he had let me know that, you know, some of the things he was doing really took off. And it was at that point I was I just told myself, man, now's the time, I've got to, I've got to do this. Chris Liepe 16:36 And so, I put in my notice at JamPlay, I started doing part time stuff for them. And I was doing other side work primarily in radio voiceover and radio production. And so, I leaned on that for a while and reached out to David Walliman, who generously said, "Hey, you know, if you want to do a course, together, we'll collaborate, and we can, we can launch it to my list. And you know, you're well known from JamPlay. And you don't have a list yet, but I think this could be good for me and good for you." So, we did, we did an ear training course together. And this was, at the time when, when David Walliman's traffic was just really high in terms of YouTube subscriber ads, and his list was doing great, and his course was doing really well. And we launched this course as one of his first non-evergreen launches. And it did really, really well. And it made both of us really excited. Chris Liepe 17:30 And so shortly after that, I started my own YouTube channel. Of course, I had nothing except for the presence on JamPlay's YouTube channel, which wasn't really all that regular. But I said, "Okay, I'm going to do two videos a week." And initially, I launched the channel, as I'm going to do guitar video a week, a voice video per week, and a recording tips video per week. Or those are going to be my three videos, and I was going to do two videos a week but rotate between those. And I started in February of 2019, I officially launched the channel, and it did terribly. Chris Liepe 18:08 It was, you know, I worked really hard on a video and get, you know, a hundred views or less, even with, you know, the little bit of a list that I had started based on the work I'd done with Wallimann. You know, every time I'd email the list, I'd get a bunch of unsubscribes. And you know, the list was shrinking. The videos were not doing well. And even after, you know, a few months, I was struggling, because I'd spent so much time on the videos and not, I wasn't getting good response. And I was running out of ideas. Already. Really discouraged. Chris Liepe 18:45 And that previous fall, I had created the first version of Discover Your Voice, which is now my flagship course offering. And I offer a lot of different packages, additional packs that come along with Discover Your Voice now as well. But I had made that first version of it and we'd done a small launch, an affiliate-based launch to David Wallimann's list at that point. And so, I had that already in some form of existence. And it was designed very much at the type of person that I would teach at JamPlay and consequently the same type of person that was on David Wallimann list, because he was very guitar-oriented. Chris Liepe 19:31 And so, I had that course, I had my YouTube videos that were not doing well, and I was ready to give up during the summer of 2019. Then my family and I were looking to move houses and we, were under contract on a house. We had gone out to see some friends and I just did not have peace about moving this other house. It didn't have an immediate studio solution. So, we're going to have to move in and I was going to have to, in the midst of, you know, trying to get into YouTube and be, you know, my own thing, we, were going to move. And that just, it wasn't working in my mind, although I love the house. And so, I ended up, we ended up backing out of the contract last minute. And I had this, you know, I had money saved for the down payment. And we, were, I was frustrated at that point. And YouTube videos aren't doing well, I have to stay in this house. And so, I thought, you know, I'm going to dump some money on some videos that I've already done that aren't, you know, they're not that successful, but they're the most successful on my channel. They each had, you know, upper hundreds in the views. And one of the videos that I did that spring, I did a cover of Chris Cornell's The Day I Tried to Live, or Sound Garden's The Day I Tried to Live. And then right after that, I did a video on how to sing like Chris Cornell, which it was one of those throwaway videos where I decided that after doing this cover that I would, you know, do this thing took me 12 minutes to make and, and just put it up and see what happens. And it was really a video of 12 minutes of me doing dying cat noises. And it is talking about how this dying cat noise can be used as a gateway to unlock things in your voice. And it had several 100 views. And then I had another one, which was how to scream, yell and sing aggressively without hurting your voice. Those two videos done pretty, pretty good for my channel, at least. At that time, it had around 500-600 subs. And so, I said, "Okay, I'm going to run Facebook ads, and I don't even care, I'm not going to point to my course, I'm not going to... I just want people to see these videos. You know, if more people saw these videos, they would like me, and they would, you know, subscribe to my channel, and then maybe I'd sell a few courses. Chris Liepe 21:58 So, all the videos, I went back, and I pasted a link to my course, even the ones that had nothing to do with, with voice lessons. And I ran those ads. And I ran them for about three weeks or so. And then I started checking the analytics on YouTube. And the Chris Cornell video had just gone exponentially up in terms of views and audience participation and comments. And way more than the ad was suggesting that it should. I mean, I was definitely getting a boost from this external source. It was Facebook, pointing to YouTube, and just an ad saying, "Hey, watch this video." That's it. Then I also noticed a week later that the aggressive vocal one had started to do the same thing. And even more so. And I got an email the week after that. So, this was late August from Google saying, "Shh, don't tell anybody right now but we're going to feature your channel for 24 hours as a creator on the rise. And it's going to be on the front page of the YouTube trending section for 24 hours." That's it. And I... The first thing I did was I called David Wallimann. I was like, "What does this mean?" I did... I have no idea. I couldn't even imagine, you know, I tried to get less excited because, you know, you just you just never know. And David was he said, "Oh, you know, I bet you'll shoot up really, really quick. This is really neat." So, I just, I got busy. And I started filming extra videos. So, I could, because I had not been all that did, I still done my two videos a week, but I hadn't really done vocal stuff. It was, I was in the midst of a pivot, because I've done vocals, guitar and recording and nobody seemed to care. And then these two vocal videos really took off. So, it's like, "Okay, I got it, I got to do this." Chris Liepe 23:44 So, I, I filmed a bunch of videos. And at that point, I had also gotten this really bad cold. So, I was trying to film in the midst of having a cold in the midst of this. So, I shot up from, you know, five 600 subscribers to 30,000 subscribers, within two months, I believe it was. And because I already had my links, I already had my funnel, my email funnel design, I already had my, you know, the course at least the first version of it there. I started selling courses. And the courses came in, I mean really, really well for someone, and I think that a lot of that was just that the growth was so strong. And that's how I got started. And so, I really went from selling, you know, a few courses per month to having you know, in August was you know, that few courses per month. And then in September, I completely replaced all other forms of income and it became my main focus. Jacques Hopkins 24:47 September 2019. Chris Liepe 24:48 September of 2019. Yes. Jacques Hopkins 24:51 Yeah, not, not this past September. Okay. Chris Liepe 24:53 No. No, a year ago pretty much or a little over a year. Jacques Hopkins 24:56 This is amazing. This is amazing. Congratulations on... Chris Liepe 24:58 Thank you. Jacques Hopkins 24:59 ...on all of that. That is such a cool sequence of events when you were talking about, you know, you're about to give up on the YouTube channel, you're like, let me just throw some money at it. Of course, I'm thinking, "Okay, he's going to spend money on YouTube ads." And then you started saying Facebook, I'm like, "Okay, so he's going to upload the videos to Facebook and run ads there." But you literally pay for ads, from Facebook, to YouTube. I've never heard anybody do that before. Chris Liepe 25:21 Yeah, and I didn't even upload the videos to Facebook, right? I just pasted a YouTube link with a little write up that was stating a problem. You know, well with these first two videos, I didn't really even know what I was doing. I have kind of a funny story about that because I had run a couple ads before that, I mean I did not understand how Facebook advertising worked at all. And I did a cover of the Star-Spangled Banner for the Fourth of July in the US. And it was an acapella version of me doing this. So, me doing the bass and the, you know, all the high notes and stuff like that. But four-part harmony, just me. And I was really proud of this video, and I thought, "Oh, I'll run an ad on it." And I didn't understand how the cost per click and demographic targeting and everything. So, I ended up setting up the algorithm wrong on the Facebook ad pointing to this video, which started a little bit late. So, it didn't even start like on the Fourth of July, it started after the Fourth of July. And nobody in the US saw it. It was really like everybody in the Middle East saw this video of me performing the national anthem. And it just was, it was you know, that was discouraging, but kind of funny too, in retrospect. Chris Liepe 26:27 So, when I did these other videos, I at least had enough wherewithal to, I ran two different versions of each video, or of each ad. One was targeted at a US audience only. And one was targeted at a worldwide audience leaving out areas that I didn't think would be interested in the course. So just simply a YouTube link going over watching and that's, it was careless, but I think it worked. Jacques Hopkins 26:52 Well, it worked but it indirectly worked from what I'm hearing. And I'd love to get clarification there. Because there's plenty of people that are going to be listening to this that are struggling with YouTube, like you were and I don't necessarily think, "Hey, a Facebook ad to a YouTube video is the solution." I think that it was an amazing sequence of events for you. And correct me if I'm wrong, but would it be true to say that the Facebook ads themselves were not profitable? It's just that... Chris Liepe 27:18 No. Jacques Hopkins 27:18 ...the Facebook ads then bumping up the traffic to YouTube is what then led to Google wanting to feature you and then that's what ultimately turned everything profitable. Chris Liepe 27:28 Yeah, absolutely. And I just felt like I needed something. And, you know, I had lots of friends, you know, David Wallimann, he had been doing his YouTube channel for, you know, almost a decade... Jacques Hopkins 27:41 Right. Chris Liepe 27:41 ...when, maybe even longer before I got into it. And his growth has been, you know, this awesome, steady... Jacques Hopkins 27:50 Yes. Chris Liepe 27:51 ...loyal, you know, thing. And I knew I was getting into the game late. And I thought I just need something, you know, I mean, David can, I can guest on David's channel, but I don't really know anybody else. And I need some vehicle to show people what I'm doing. And since YouTube wasn't given me any love, I thought, "Well, I'll just, I'll just pay for it." You know, take that risk. And it was expensive, but it was kind of like, I was telling a guy, as I was getting into this, you know, lots of people have hobbies that are really expensive, you know, woodworking or... Jacques Hopkins 28:26 Golf. Chris Liepe 28:26 ...you know, golf... Jacques Hopkins 28:28 Buying airplanes. Chris Liepe 28:29 ...you know, car collecting, whatever, you know, and these things initially are not profitable at all, right? And I so I told this, this friend that, you know, YouTube is a hobby. I've got this studio down there, I've got, you know, at the time, I had my basic income needs covered from, you know, contract work that I was doing and part time work from JamPlay. And, and so I thought, you know, this is just going to be an expensive hobby for a little bit. And instead of buying, you know, tools or cars or golf clubs, I don't play golf anyway, but you know, that kind of thing. It was going to be Facebook ads, and it was going to take time and it was going to take money. And it didn't, I mean I still I still do that same thing. I'm scaling back on my Facebook ad approach now in that way, but I still run Facebook ads. They're still very expensive. But it does it, it fueled and continues to fuel the business. Jacques Hopkins 29:21 That's a, it's a very interesting mindset to have behind the paying for traffic. I haven't heard anybody put it quite that way before where it's like, this is my hobby, you know, and other hobbies cost money. Now, it makes sense. But why wouldn't you have done YouTube ads? Why did you go Facebook ads instead of YouTube ads? Chris Liepe 29:41 Interestingly enough, after the success of the Facebook ads, the following spring, I started to run YouTube ads and, and literally, you know, promote a video that had something interesting and then I also did some, I also did a short video that was basically saying, "Hey, come check out my YouTube channel if you want to learn how to sing" in a little bit more eloquent way with some shots of the things I do on YouTube to try to get people fired up to, to do it, and that they should come check out the channel. And that was the only ad for a while it was, you know, you click on a YouTube video about something and you have me coming up saying, "Hey, I'm not selling you anything, I just want you to come watch my YouTube channel." That's all I did. Chris Liepe 30:20 And then I ran another campaign, which was pointing directly to the opportunity to request an invitation to my course, and that's something we can get into later. My course is only available by invite. And the YouTube thing didn't have near the impact that I felt like the Facebook approach did. And my theory is this: With a Facebook ad, you're going through and you're, you're scrolling through your feed, and you're looking for something to engage in. You aren't currently engaged in any one specific thing, but you're looking for something to engage in. Maybe it's the picture of the hamburger that your friend took, maybe it's some vacation that another family took that you want to learn about, or maybe you're looking for something to do, and you're bored. And you come across a video with a neat thumb, and you happen to be a singer or recording guy, and oh, "I'm going to click on that." Pulls you out of Facebook sends you over to YouTube, and you have chosen, you've chosen to watch that video. And so, you're going to engage in it at least to some degree. And then if you like what you see in the first minute or so you might keep watching, but you chose it. With YouTube ads, you do not choose them. The only initial call to action is that you skip it. Right? Chris Liepe 31:39 So, with Facebook ads, my potential viewers were being asked to choose to watch. So, they chose, and they would go over and watch. With YouTube ads, if they were going to engage in my video, they didn't have to do anything, they didn't have to go over to my channel, they would just sit there and not skip the ad and then eventually skip it, you know, or they'd click the learn more, but in order to actually engage with me, they weren't required to do anything. So even if they really liked my video, they'd watch it. You know, the YouTube videos got really good views, but it wouldn't kick them over to the channel. Because inherently we as humans, especially when we're sitting there on our phones in the evening, scrolling through something to do, we're lazy. So, YouTube ads did not take advantage of the fact that people could choose to watch me and then go over to my channel. Even YouTube itself, if they were engaged in my, in my video, my video ad didn't go to my channel. So, they weren't going to subscribe, they weren't going to check out other videos, they were going to skip after that video ended and watch the video they actually wanted to watch. And this has been true. I still run YouTube ads only for the course, though, requesting an invitation to the course. But I don't think they work for what I was wanting to do, which is traffic. They have not worked. It's not an I don't think I know from looking at the, the analytics and looking at the, you know, external traffic on Google Analytics, they don't work for generating traffic, like the Facebook approach that I took did. Jacques Hopkins 33:08 Well, it's a very interesting theory about the user actually choosing and clicking on it, whereas it's an interesting take to say, you know, the YouTube ad the call to action, or the first call to action is basically skip ad. Right? Chris Liepe 33:22 Right. Jacques Hopkins 33:22 But I would push back to you on only one point there is that there's really my understanding is I think there's four different types of YouTube ads, actually. And before we get into that, this style of marketing and advertising, I don't remember the exact technical terms, but I think the words like active and passive will probably suffice for this conversation. But when I first succeeded with advertising, I think sometime in 2017, probably, I was like, you know, Facebook ads hasn't really worked. It's like Google when people do Google searches, right? Not even YouTube but Google search. They're like they're actively searching for how to play piano. Like, why wouldn't I want an ad right at the top... Chris Liepe 34:03 Right. Jacques Hopkins 34:03 ...and to give people access to something, or answers and solutions to exactly what they're searching for versus Facebook, where you're literally having to interrupt what they're doing? Chris Liepe 34:13 Right. Jacques Hopkins 34:13 And so, I initially found great success with Google ads because I was jumping in front of people that were searching for exactly what I had to offer. Chris Liepe 34:20 Right. Jacques Hopkins 34:21 And, and I would guess that, you know, it's some kind of active marketing, whereas Facebook, you're, you're, they're not necessarily searching for how to play piano, you've got to catch their attention. Chris Liepe 34:31 Right. And that's a really good point. What I'm doing with Google is specifically video ads at the beginning of videos currently. Jacques Hopkins 34:40 Which are the ones that have that quote, unquote, call to action to skip. Chris Liepe 34:44 Right. Jacques Hopkins 34:44 But what about the ones that appear, like, there's ones where they could go to YouTube and type in how to play piano and then there could be an ad at the top? That would be somebody choosing to click on a YouTube ad. Chris Liepe 34:55 Absolutely. Yeah, I've not experimented there yet. Definitely. Between That and then the SEO style ads, right where you're not even in YouTube, you're just in Google, and you have a paid ad that that comes up, those are on my list for sure. And the last two months of my business has been continue to experiment with different types of advertising. And I've gone away a little bit from the let's just get traffic, to let's go directly to the course. Or my course offerings, my website, ChrisLiepe.com. Chris Liepe 35:34 And what's interesting is, you know, when we talk about list addition, and, you know, building your email list, this approach of, you know, paying for Facebook ads to point to my YouTube, and then get people to subscribe to YouTube, on my YouTube videos, every single one of my YouTube videos from August 2019 until now, every single one has a call to action within the first 30 seconds, and the last 30 seconds that encourages people to go to the lead magnet, "Hey, the things that we're going to be working on in this video are somewhat advanced. And if you want to learn how to sing, like some of the ways that I'm going to show you in this video, click the link below and join my free voice course." In the very end recap, "Hey, I hope you enjoyed this video. Again, if you want to take your voice to another level and let me help you rebuild your voice from the ground up, click the link below and join my free vocal course." Every. Single. One. of my videos does that. Chris Liepe 36:32 And I've had conversations with other YouTube guys who you know, they're doing affiliate, you know, they got microphones and they've got ,you know, software, and they've got all sorts of other things that they link to in their video info. And I don't do that currently, I may do that eventually. But what I noticed with this system is that I was creating very, very warm leads to my email. You know, not that I will not pursue, and I am in the process of pursuing some of these other forms of advertising. But even in doing that, so far over the last two months, the leads that I generate from that type of advertising, where they go directly to my website, they're cold. They're much colder. So, I have averaged for a whole year, well over 100 emails per day into my, into my list, my list is currently at around 25,000. And I clean it every month, like I get rid of the cold, I save them off and clean them every month so that things remain fairly, fairly warm. But the engagement from the list, the amount of people who join the free course, and then elect to request an invitation into the Discover Your Voice environment or suite of courses has been well beyond, has gone well beyond the expectations that I would have had for a list or channel of my size. And I think that the, this lead-warming process that I kind of stumbled upon, I think it's worked really well. And it's, I have sold some courses off of the, the direct to website ads, but they are exponentially less than those who are warmed up. I mean, the number one sort of comment that I get is, "Aw man, I've been following your YouTube channel for a little while. I just I love what you do. Thank you so much for giving all your time to helping me improve my voice. I just had to sign up for the course." And that brings in... Jacques Hopkins 38:29 The free course or the paid course? Chris Liepe 38:31 Well free course but they can't get to the paid course in any other way than going to the free course. So, there's they're specifically talking about the paid course at that point. Jacques Hopkins 38:38 Okay. Chris Liepe 38:39 Like, I'm really excited to be here, you know, I'll get in the course. You know? Because I have a little forum in there. And that's the, the general story. "I was so impressed with what happened with my voice on YouTube, just on your YouTube videos, that I signed up for the free course and my mind was blown in three days. And then I just decided that, Okay, it's time it's time for me to join this 12-week journey, Discover Your Voice and really take my voice to the next level." It's this, this idea that we are we're giving away and we're providing so much value to people who aren't giving us any money that ultimately by the time they get presented with an offer from you. They are they trust you and appropriately so and are excited to continue a relationship with you as opposed to start a relationship with you. Jacques Hopkins 39:25 I mean, I agree completely, it makes total sense to me. You know, my recommended steps for people to start an online course business is not step one, make the online course, step two run ads to it by any, by any means. Chris Liepe 39:37 Right. Jacques Hopkins 39:38 My first advice is if you don't have an audience, you don't have a list, like ,you... You're talking about how you're getting started getting him a list, right? You started teaming up with David, who by the way, that's who recommended you to come on and he's been on this podcast a couple of times. He's one of my favorite... Chris Liepe 39:52 It's great. Jacques Hopkins 39:53 ...YouTube success stories. But I recommend people get started, they got to start building the audience and I pick one platform and put out content on a consistent schedule. Chris Liepe 40:03 Right. Jacques Hopkins 40:04 I recommend YouTube for the most part, it doesn't have to be YouTube, it could be a podcast, it could be other platforms. But in general, for course creators, especially those of us in the music niche, it's YouTube is a great place to get started. And that's what you did. And you said, from the very first video, you had that same call to action, I mean, if I go back to your very first video, you upload it to YouTube, I will see that same call to action? Chris Liepe 40:27 Maybe not the very first video. Some of the early guitar videos and recording videos don't have that on there, at least in video form with me making the pitch. I started out, when I had less focus it was sometimes it was like download the track I'm using here or go to you know, there was always some lead magnet. But once I figured out vocals was the thing that was going to be the, the main thing, every single one. Join my free course. Jacques Hopkins 40:54 So, once you figured out vocals was going to be your main niche, I'm guessing you created, here's my guess is that you created the free course so that you'd have a lead magnet, then you started having the calls to action in the new videos you create, and then you made the paid course? Is that the sequence of events? Chris Liepe 41:11 No. I actually made the paid course before I started my YouTube channel. Jacques Hopkins 41:15 Why? Chris Liepe 41:16 Because I thought with this ear training course that I did with David Wallimann did really well. And I'm going to make this course and I'm going to have it in place. Maybe I'll pitch it, you know, I'll do an affiliate split with David Wallimann. You know, so he didn't have to come up with another course, people knew me from the ear training, people knew me from JamPlay. And we did an initial launch before and I had done a little bit of YouTube stuff but, right, it was, there was that six-month period where I didn't, I wasn't getting any traction. And I was doing sort of aimless things on YouTube, right? Where I was doing a recording video and a vocal video and a guitar video and building my voice course for Wallimann's list, essentially. And so, I had the paid course, done at least the first version of it, before YouTube took off. And then I had the lead magnet, which is the free course, which actually includes David Wallimann as a guest. I'm walking him through how to discover things about his voice. That's a lead magnet, which is super cool, because people on my YouTube videos, it's just me, and they join the free course. And they go, "Oh, here's a guy, like, here's me being goofy and doing all these weird things with my voice as a teacher, and the student is doing the same thing. Oh, and that student’s also YouTuber." It's just this really neat thing. It's very valuable. But all of that existed prior to YouTube taking off and even prior, well, not prior to but at the same time that vocals became my focus. Jacques Hopkins 42:43 Because you had had that success with the ear training course with David. Chris Liepe 42:48 Yeah. Jacques Hopkins 42:48 Right? Chris Liepe 42:48 And, and yeah, yeah. Jacques Hopkins 42:50 So that went well. You're like, "Okay, let's do it again. So, let me make another course Let's promote it over here." And then that's when you started, then then you're like, "Okay, I need to build my own audience. I need to build my own list." And that's when you started getting into YouTube. Chris Liepe 43:02 Yeah, Jacques Hopkins 43:03 So, for just about any singing video, especially the most recent several months on your YouTube channel, I could expect that call to action over to your free course. And that seems to be going very well. Chris Liepe 43:14 Yeah. Jacques Hopkins 43:15 Right? So, I'm going to go ahead. I'm doing that right now. I'm on one of your most recent videos. I'm sure there's a call to action in the video in the description. It says Free Voice Lessons. ChrisLiepe.com/FreeYourVoice. That's the free gifts. Chris Liepe 43:28 Yep. Uh huh. Jacques Hopkins 43:29 Okay. So, I'm going to click on that, and now I'm on a landing page. By the way, what software are you using to build your landing pages? Chris Liepe 43:35 Elementor. I have a guy who's helping me. Jacques Hopkins 43:38 Okay, so just WordPress? Chris Liepe 43:39 Yeah, yeah. Jacques Hopkins 43:40 WordPress, no funnel software, no ClickFunnels, no Thrive or anything like that? Chris Liepe 43:45 We're using, I don't manage that part of it. I've hired a guy to help me. You know, with SEO and retargeting and all that stuff. I'm not sure exactly what he's using for that. But I know we're tied into Facebook Pixel. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins 43:59 But if I log, so let's say I opt in here. It's a very, very well designed, opt in page and I see a picture of you and David here. Right? And if I opt in, then is it do I get a username and password or is it just a page with some videos? Chris Liepe 44:14 No. Okay, so what it does is they opt in, and then they get emails, they get added to my list and they get entered into a sequence. I use ConvertKit... Jacques Hopkins 44:24 Okay. Chris Liepe 44:24 ..for that. And they get the course delivered to them over the next three days as just different landing pages. They don't have to resign-in. All they have to do is give me their first name and their email and then they get the course delivered over the next day. So, it requires consistent engagement with the list or with their emails. Chris Liepe 44:44 And then on the fourth email in that sequence is a thing that says, you know, "Hey, you guys, if you've really enjoyed this free course, I have a special invitation for you that's coming soon." And I have it set up so that it's paced, whereas people are completing because Discover Your Voice is a 12-week journey. It's a drip course that people are, they're engaged every week, they get new material every week, for 12 weeks. They can get behind because they have lifetime access to the course but they're not going to be able to work ahead. They're going to have to go every week for 12 weeks. And so, it varies. But I look at my course completion rates, and I look at my conversion rate and I said, I tweak my evergreen funnel every once in a while to keep up with that pacing, and it creates this by-invitation-only, "Man, I hope I can get in on this enrollment period." And it's good because it creates this relationship too with the students, I want to open and close enrollment for you because I want to be available. Chris Liepe 45:53 Voice lessons are not like any other lessons. You need the ability to have access to your instructor. And if I just leave the course open all the time, and just have a, you know, big price tag on the front of my website saying, "Here join for this" I'm going to get large, you know, and then run a sale on it or whatever, here and there, I'm going to get massive people signing up all at the same time. And then I'm not going to have anybody in the course for a while, I would rather have a steady stream of people joining so that I know that I can walk through the course with these people that want to learn about their voice. They're not just wanting to spend money for the sake of spending money. They want to go to a deeper level. If they want to engage with me on a shallow level, they can watch my YouTube stuff. But what differentiates my YouTube or my course offerings from my YouTube is that it is a journey. It is a handheld journey. And you can even opt to get private face to face instruction in that journey once you have joined the course. Jacques Hopkins 46:52 So, if I opt in right now, I'll get an email, same day with the first of three lessons? Chris Liepe 46:57 Yes. And then the following day, the next video, following day the next video. And then you'll get... Jacques Hopkins 47:01 Following day, the next video. Chris Liepe 47:03 Yep. And then you'll get the, there is an invitation coming soon... Jacques Hopkins 47:07 On the fourth day. Chris Liepe 47:08 And then that on the fourth day, there's an invitation coming soon. Yep. And while they're still warm, again, I tweak this depending on how the evergreen traffic is going. It could be the next day, it could be a few days could be a week, but I still want them to be excited and warm when it comes to you know, “I really want to get in.” So yeah, that’s, that’s how that works. Jacques Hopkins 47:30 Okay, so let's, let's talk about how that looks in terms of the framing because I mean, my funnel is not that, from what we talked about my funnel is not that far off from, from yours. Right? They opt in for the free material, I take them through some free videos. And then for me the way that I phrase it, everything is like I literally have an email that goes out that doesn't have any links that says enrollment is opening tomorrow, you know. Mark your calendar. Chris Liepe 47:52 Right? Jacques Hopkins 47:52 Right, but I call it enrolment. It's all about the availability. It's not, hey... Chris Liepe 47:57 Yeah. Mine too. Jacques Hopkins 47:57 ...your invitation is coming. So, "Hey your invitation is coming." And then once that invitation actually shows up, what does it look like? Is it a sales page? Is it basically, "Hey enrollment is open?" Or is it like an application? Is it truly an invitation? Chris Liepe 48:11 It is, well for the first instantiation, so I've got two things going on here. For the first instantiation, it is enrollment is open. You were invited. Then they, they click the link, and then it goes to a landing page. It has the current offerings, and it has the course copy that tells them, you know, about the course and gets them excited. And then there's multiple tiers that they can opt to, to engage with, and enroll in. If they and then of course, they'll get emails multiple times for five days, and then enrollment will close. And they're on, [and] enrollment will close for, for that group of people. Chris Liepe 48:47 Then they sit on my list with every single email that I send out with free content. You know, it's an announcement of a new YouTube video that I've released. I'll regularly email at least once a week about the new videos that I put up on the channel. With every one of those, the people that are not currently able to enroll in the evergreen sequence, they are then given an opportunity to request an invitation to the course. So, they missed it. Enrollment was open for them. They missed it. Well, if you haven't done so already, and you are still getting huge value out of these YouTube videos and you'd like to take your voice to another level but didn't get in on your initial enrollment period, click the link below to request another invitation to my course. That then re-enters them into a different funnel with a separate set of engaging emails that is delayed and what I would say is it enters them into a segment and then I will manually tick on that open enrollment when enrollment is open. Chris Liepe 49:54 And so, then those people who missed the first time they get another offer. Usually within a month, or something like that to get back into the course. So, it supports the idea that enrollment opens and closes, and that I only allow a certain amount of people in so that I can be engaged with the people going through the material. And at the same time gives people other opportunities throughout the year to get in. And that's worked marvelously well. Really, really well. Jacques Hopkins 50:21 So just to make sure I'm understanding, when you send out these, let's call them value emails to your, to your list that has already been through the evergreen funnel, you’re, you made a new video, you're emailing them out, in the body of that email, it also says something like, if you would like to request an invitation to the course, click here. Chris Liepe 50:39 Yeah, that's it. That's just it's a PS or, and... Jacques Hopkins 50:42 Yeah. Chris Liepe 50:43 You know, thanks for checking out this video on Freddie Mercury. If you want to take your voice to another level and you missed out, you know, request an invitation to the course. Jacques Hopkins 50:52 Interesting. So, you have this powerful evergreen funnel that is working. And then once somebody goes through the evergreen funnel, and doesn't unsubscribe or buy, that's your way of handling those people going into the future. Chris Liepe 51:05 Yeah, I'll retarget them in that way, I'll re engage them in that way through the value emails. And then of course, when I launch a new course, or have a special, you know, holiday thing, then the, the whole list is reengaged at that point as well. Jacques Hopkins 51:22 Did you, where did you learn that approach? Did you come up with it yourself? Chris Liepe 51:25 Ah, yeah, that one was one that I just thought, oh, there's because I always liked the idea of the I'm sure other people are doing it, you know, this isn't something that, you know, I invented. But I had this, this idea that my course is a, it's a premium offering, that is by invitation-only, a12-week journey. It's designed to be not just more videos, because we don't just need more videos, I have plenty of videos on YouTube, and so does the rest of the world, we need an environment, we need a journey. And so, this idea of having an opportunity to request an invitation, it's another way to give to your, your engaged audience. I'm giving you an opportunity to request an invitation. Chris Liepe 52:10 And any time you know all the business entrepreneur business things that I've read, how many different ways can you provide value can provide value with you know that that's the question we always need to be answering and looking for different ways to answer, right? And so sometimes that's through free content. Sometimes that's through an offer, right? I'm not just offering, I'm not just asking for money, I'm just, I'm not just asking for you to enroll in my course, I'm offering you an opportunity. Chris Liepe 52:38 And so, the other reason I like the invitation thing is that they are making a decision that they want to engage with the 12-week journey before they're being asked to make the decision to purchase it. And I feel like, it's kind of like, you know, when you are - I like, I like cars. And I don't have you know, I own two cars, you know, one, one for my wife and one for me, but I love renting cars. And I like taking my kids out. And you know, getting this really crazy, amazing car and going on a mountain drive with it or whatever. And then, but before we, we go and we find a car to rent, we experience it through a book or research online or whatever. And you know, oh, you know, it's got this many horsepower in it, you know, here's the history of this car, whatever. We experience it. And we have this experience, that doesn't cost me anything. It just allows me to dream. And think about what would it be like? What will it be like when I get into that car and take it up, you know, into, you know, around Rocky Mountain National Park, you know? I'm on those windy roads, and I'm, you know, downshifting out of the curve. And you know, you start imagining all these things that you can, you can do, and there's no sticker shock at all. There's, there's nothing. I've made already made my decision and I'm going to rent that car. And I really don't, you know, I don't want to pay thousands of dollars for a few hours or whatever, you know, I don't want to, I want to, I still want to be a good deal. I want to feel like it's valuable when I go and rent that car, right? But I don't, I'm not going to quibble over a certain range of price, because I've already decided something I want to do. And that's how I want to treat every, every student, every potential student. I want them to already decide that they're ready before they know how much anything costs. Chris Liepe 54:30 And the other thing is that gives me some flexibility. I, you know, when I first started the option to enroll in the course, with a single private consult, the price was much lower. And when and I was, I was getting a lot of people signing up for this course with the private consult. And I thought, well, this is great. I like engaging with people one to one. But as you know, things continue to grow. I'm not going to be able to handle as many students in this way. And so, it allowed me to raise the price of that offering, because I don't advertise my prices anywhere. Yeah Jacques Hopkins 55:05 You're a wise man, Chris Liepe. Chris Liepe 55:07 Well, thank you. Jacques Hopkins 55:08 And kind of the evolution that I see in course creators in terms of like, launch models, if you will. It's like, everybody knows about launches, right? It's like, I'm going to do a big launch. I'm going to, I'm going to get as many students as one time and then they go launch and then it's like, okay, well, now what? Because I'm not making any money right now. I've just, I've just did my launch. So then, then people start transitioning to evergreen funnels, which is what you've got now, obviously. And once you get that up and dialed in and working, okay, that's amazing. But hey, what about these people that go through the funnel, and they didn't unsubscribe or buy? Right? Your approach is interesting. It's not one I've heard before. The way that I do it. I'll try to put as simple as possible, because I've talked about the podcast several times but when somebody goes to the evergreen funnel, they don't unsubscribe or buy, I'll put them in one of four buckets based on what month it currently is. And then that allows me to just do a relaunch to my list to a quarter of my list every four months. So, every month, every month, I'm relaunching to a quarter of my list. Chris Liepe 56:08 That's a great idea. Yeah. Jacques Hopkins 56:09 Well, it's not that far different than what you're doing. Chris Liepe 56:12 No. It's really not. Jacques Hopkins 56:13 It's, it's, I like your approach, because it's, it's a little more active for the email subscriber, because you're, you're sending them value you're sending in more value emails than I typically do. You're sitting in once a week and so they're continuing to get more and more value from you. And when they are ready, they're the ones that have to click, "Hey, I want an invitation." Right? You're not actively relaunching to them until they take that action if I'm hearing you correctly. Chris Liepe 56:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there is that that aspect that they will if they don't request an invitation, or even if they do request invitation, and don't buy, they will still get put into like you're saying, they'll get put into a bucket for another relaunch. So, I'll relaunch and also, my relaunches will always, they'll always be an additional value to the relaunch. And so, you know, this time, there's this new mini pack, that, you know, the Energy and Agility Practice Pack or the Mixed Voice in Madness Practice Pack, or the Aggressive Vocalist Master Plan of Attack, or the 31 Wellness Warm Ups for Your Voice. There's always another course, when I relaunch that will help, you know, "Oh, wow, I should get in." And I always will, I'll relaunch with a bundle for all the non-buyers with another valuable thing that hopefully will pique their interest in a way that the first offer didn't. And then, but before I do that, I'll take that new course and I'll offer it as a special student discount for those people who have already enrolled in the course. Chris Liepe 57:40 And so, it's essentially a two-week launch that I'll do and I'll do these once every month. It's also new, right, but it's been about once a month, once every other month. And I will have an additional small course, this one will be launched to my current Discover Your Voice students, "Hey, I'm happy you're working your way through Discover Your Voice. Sounds like things are going great. Here's something that will supercharge your journey, and it's brand new. And for this week, you can take advantage of a special student discount." And it's drastically discounted from where it's going to be if they just, you know, get it somewhere, somewhere else, or after this week's special student discount. And then that window closes, and then
88 minutes | 3 months ago
158: 4 Steps to Eliminate Stress & Take Control of Your Life
Dr. David and I are on our own this week, but that’s not because I forgot to book a guest. It’s because David himself is leading the discussion on today’s topic: taking healthy control of your life and reducing stress. Whether or not you’re a successful course creator, there’s something in this episode for you to consider, because who doesn’t have stress? “If you ask me what is the single most important thing… the one single word is “momentum.” – Dr. David Krohse In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:39) Why I’m unprepared for this episode (and why that’s okay) (1:37) The backstory for today’s topic (6:58) David’s single most important word (8:17) Cold showers and choosing discomfort (9:42) Step 1: Rate your stressors (11:25) Step 2: Envisioning a stress-free life (14:52) Step 3: Hack your stressors and your goals (17:01) Step 4: Use effective goal-setting to take control (19:39) Simplicity versus confusion (22:05) Goal-setting and penalties (24:58) Figuring out timeframes (28:04) An interesting relationship hack + how David meet his wife (34:21) Finding a good fit (36:56) Top tips for family and communication (45:04) Our favorite resource for work relationships (48:01) Reading recommendations and how to handle people who drag you down (49:36) Health hacks and homework for David (57:37) My favorite supplements (59:24) David’s recommendations for anxiety and depression + a plug for chiropractic (1:03:18) Our “Baby Steps” financial journeys (1:08:28) My investment influencers (1:14:58) David’s best career advice (1:16:05) Influencing others and the positive impact online courses can have (1:20:06) Looking back at early goals and where they’ve led (1:23:03) The motto to put on your mirror (1:24:22) Where to find everything we mentioned on the show + my online course creator community (1:25:47) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Resources and Recommendations: 4 Steps to Eliminate Stress Establish your Goal Handout Episode 23 Episode 98 Episode 111 The Art of Charm The 5 Love Languages How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen How to Win Friends and Influence People The 4-Hour Workweek Good to Great Expert Secrets Building a StoryBrand Boundaries The Obesity Code podcast Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It Uplift desk How to Stop Worrying and Start Living Mint I Will Teach You to Be Rich ChooseFI Profit First Talent Stacker Lombardi Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Jacques Hopkins  00:02 Regular people are taking their knowledge and content, packaging it up in an online course, and they're making a living doing it.   Jacques Hopkins  00:12 But not everyone is successful with online courses. There's a right way and there's a wrong way. And I'm here to help course creators actually succeed with online courses.   Jacques Hopkins  00:24 Hi, I'm Jacques Hopkins. And this is the Online Course Show.   Jacques Hopkins  00:32 And off we go, welcome aboard. Glad you're with us. I am your host, Jacques Hopkins. and here with me is our cohost as well. What's going on Dr. K?   David Krohse  00:41 Oh, I'm doing fantastic here. How are you doing?   Jacques Hopkins  00:44 I'm doing well. I feel a little unprepared to be honest with you because normally I've got a good amount of notes. I like... I'm a planner. I'm a planner. Right? And I don't have many today because today's episode was your idea. You've come to the table with plenty of ideas for even whole episodes before. And it's a nice little break because you're kind of in the driver's seat here. So, man, what's going on? And tell us what we're going to learn about today?   David Krohse  01:10 Oh, well, I mean, what you talked about planning. What I'm excited to share with everybody is a talk that I hope surely changes some lives. Essentially a goal setting, vision board, resolution-type exercise that people can actually sit down, they can listen through it once.  And then maybe sit down in a quiet space and actually plan out what they want the next couple years of their life to look like and just make big changes.   Jacques Hopkins  01:35 Man, it sounds good. Like, what give me the backstory of this. Like, is this something you've come up with all on your own?   David Krohse  01:42 Yeah, it's an interesting story. So again, you know, my thing, my online course is How to Do Lunch and Learns for Chiropractors and other professions. And my first lunch and learn was like, "How to Stay Young: the First 100 Years." Then I did one called "4 Stretches for a Pain-free Day." And these businesses, they wanted me to come back each year and keep talking to them. And so, I was like, I'm going to do a talk on how to reduce stress and how to manage stress. And my first thought was that I was to be sharing like meditation tips, some stretching routines of self-talk. I mean, basically, what's the Post-it note that you put up on your mirror that's like, "you are a good person, you try hard."   David Krohse  02:25 And as I thought about that stress talk, I reflected back. So, when I was a junior in college, I was getting a coaching minor. I was considering becoming a full-time swim coach as a career, and I ended up in a class called Dynamics of Human Development. And I had to give a presentation with my friend/buddy, and we chose the topic "How to Raise Kids' Self-Esteem." And when we first picked that topic, we thought it was going to be all the things that teachers need to tell kids. Encourage them. You know, "you're a good kid, you try hard." And that ways that that teachers would coach parents to say the same types of things - these encouraging words.   David Krohse  03:06 And we started digging into the research and we learned that that kind of talk is a load of crap. It's like worthless. As far as, like picture for a second: you're the, you know that Jacques here is, he's 10 years old. You know, he's not passing his classes at school, you know...   Jacques Hopkins  03:21 Little chubby. A little chubby.   David Krohse  03:23 He's a little chubby. Kids make fun of him because the only songs he knows how to play on piano are like classical songs that no one even recognizes. He's given wedgies in the locker room. And he comes home one day, and his mom is like, you know, "How did your day at school go?" And little Jacques, he says, you know, "It's terrible." And his mom says, look, you know, "You're a good kid. You try hard." It's like, what would you do? You'd roll your eyes, right? I mean, you'd be like, "Mom, my life sucks!"   Jacques Hopkins  03:24 Yeah.   David Krohse  03:37 Like, I don't have any friends. I'm not passing my classes. And...   Jacques Hopkins  03:57 This is what I get for trying hard? Seriously?   David Krohse  03:59 Right, exactly. And so, what the research says is that this low self-esteem is caused by lack of control. And so, if you want to raise a kid's self-esteem, it's not something you say to them, it's giving them this clear action plan that helps them take control of their life. And then when they have control, you know, when little Jacques has friends, when he's playing songs that kids actually recognize, and they're crowded around him on the piano, it's like, all of a sudden, the kid doesn't have low self-esteem.   David Krohse  04:26 And so, again, this is back in 2012, maybe 2013, but as I was planning to do a talk on stress, I was like, you know, what we call low self-esteem in kids, when we're an adult, we're standing in front of the mirrors looking into our eyes, and we're just like, "I feel stressed!", it's almost like this exact synonym for that low self-esteem in kids. And once we say that, then how do you fix that stress feeling? It's like there's not there's not the Post-it note on the mirror, right? That says you're trying hard. It's like you actually have to change your life. And so, at that point I was like, alright, like what are our steps to really take control of our life [and] experience less stress as a result.   Jacques Hopkins  05:06 So it's, it's interesting because you have had your course for four years now - couple years - and I've always known that you helped other chiropractors, and now you branched out to other wellness professionals, to get more business, get more clients through lunch and learns, right? And I know what lunch and learns are from my time as an electrical engineer. We have these people come in, and talk about their products: their different, you know, hardware, little devices that that, you know, we as engineers would program and whatnot. But I don't know if I've ever thought to ask you like, "Hey, what types of things are you even talking about, David, in these Lunch and learns?" So that's some new insights on my side. I know, typically, chiropractors are just big into overall wellness, right? Not just alignments, but helping people with stress, anxiety, you know, doing things like meditation. And so this falls right in line with, you know, who, what I know about you as a person I just never thought about, okay, what is he actually talking about at these Lunch and learn? So, it sounds like this is this particular thing where you're talking about how to eliminate certain stressful things in your life by planning and control. This is something that you've done in the lunch and learn setting, which is what you teach about many times before.   David Krohse  06:25 Exactly, yeah. And this is the most fun one. I mean, people get this like starry eyed look in their eyes. Again, like years after giving this talk, this random lady walked up to me in tears and said, "You know, this talk you gave on goal setting, she's like, I realized that was when I decided I was going to change my career." You know, I gave her this awkward hug. So, this talk, I mean, it can change your life, if you let it. So, the one thing I'll say, I mean, a portion of this talk is going to feel really off-topic for courses; like you said, a holistic view. If you ask me, what's the single most important thing in business and kind of in life in general, the one single word is momentum. You know, I mean, if your business or if your life is going the wrong direction, it can take intense action to change that momentum. But what I'd say, and I've observed in a lot of people's lives is like, momentum can start at any spot in your life, and then it can trickle over to all these other things. So I mean, if we look at your situation, Jacques, we would say that you being here today is the online course guru and changing all these people's lives around the world, one of the critical steps was a personal finance decision for you and your wife paid off your house. Without that step, you wouldn't necessarily be here today as the Online Course Guy.   Jacques Hopkins  07:41 Yeah, you can, I definitely recognize that you can apply certain things to one area of your life to other completely unrelated ways. Momentum is a good word for it. I mean, it's a pretty big example you just brought up is that, you know, that I might still be working my job and none of this would have happened if I had never, say, paid off my mortgage. And I didn't foresee all of this, but you know, we had a plan. We knew that we wanted certain freedoms that existed when you didn't owe anybody any money, including on your house. But even little things, man. So, let me give you a smaller example. Like, when there's times where I do... You ever done a like cold shower?   David Krohse  08:21 No. Terrible idea. Only when I'm forced.   Jacques Hopkins  08:25 Come on, man. You're the health and wellness guy.   David Krohse  08:28 My wife does it. I don't, no...   Jacques Hopkins  08:30 She does? So, there's a lot of research that [says] cold therapy is very, very good for you in a lot of different ways. And the best way to do it is like an ice bath. There's also these cryo chambers, but if you want to 80/20 it, you can just take a cold shower. A couple minutes, or just kind of cycle between hot and cold. Anyway, I've gone through periods of doing it. I've done it for up to like a month straight up doing a cold shower every day. Let me tell you, it's painful. Okay, but it got me used to being uncomfortable. Right? And I could see that going about my day and through that entire month when I did it, I could see myself more comfortable with other things in life that we're on some level painful too. Some things that I just didn't want to do, I found myself more willing to do them because, hey, I took a cold shower, I can do anything. You know?   David Krohse  09:23 Definitely. Alright, so yeah, so listeners grab a pen, find a quiet space, either now or on a second listen, you know, maybe alone, maybe with your partner, and I'd encourage you to really use this opportunity to kind of plan out what you want your life to look like. I will put together a download that we can put in the show notes that can kind of walk you through some of this. Alright, so let's jump into these four steps to eliminate stress and take control of your life. So, step one, I'm going to have you rate your stressors. So, you could write down on a sheet of paper these four different main categories of your life: so, relationships, health, finances, and career. And I want you to just take a second here, and rate each of those on a zero to 10 scale as far as how much stress they are. So, zero would be no stress, 10 would be like put me out of my misery and just put a number next to each of those.   Jacques Hopkins  10:14 I'm guessing you want me to do this...   David Krohse  10:16 Yeah. Do it.   Jacques Hopkins  10:16 ...as were talking about it? Okay.   David Krohse  10:17 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins  10:17 I'm writing this down over here. Alright, so...   David Krohse  10:20 Relationships, health, finances, career,   Jacques Hopkins  10:22 You always hear about like the three, like health, wealth, and relationships. Right? So, you're kind of adding a fourth one of career, which, okay, because it could kind of fall into find it into finances to an extent, but I guess you're breaking that out.   David Krohse  10:36 Mm hmm. All right. So, what most people are going to see is that right away, there's like one or two of these categories that are, you know, way higher than the rest. And you want to share which one jumps out is the highest on yours, Jacques?   Jacques Hopkins  10:49 Yeah,I mean, I would say, I would say career is probably top for me. Yeah.   David Krohse  10:55 It is for me too.   Jacques Hopkins  10:56 I've got a pretty low, low stress job here. I mean, I'm doing exactly what I want to be doing. But I could imagine that that one's probably low on a lot of people's lists, too. But that's it sounds like, but you said yours is high for career as well?   David Krohse  11:09 Yeah, I would say I would say at some point here, I need to add another doctor to my practice and, and just kind of like right on that edge of where, you know, I want to do it, but I want to be all set. So yeah.   Jacques Hopkins  11:19 Okay, great. Yeah. And then finances is right there. Relationships is right there as well. My lowest is probably health.   David Krohse  11:25 Gotcha. Alright, so step two is going to be to paint the picture of your stress-free life. So, think about two to five years down the road, what do you want your life to look like? And I would say start with the highest stress areas. So, look at that one that's the highest - the career - and say, "What do you want your career, your finances to look like two to five years down the road." And obviously included in this, I'd say include any goals and like these bucket list activities that you say, okay, two or five years down the road, what do you want to have checked off your list? And so, I'll give you a few of these statements that I would have you write down, statements similar to this. "I don't have to check my bank account five times a day to make sure my husband doesn't cause an overdraft. I'm in a loving, fulfilling relationship. I go skiing in Colorado every winter. I'm as thin as I like to be. I look forward to a weekly date night. Credit card payments don't make me sick to my stomach. I love my job. My mortgage is my only payment and it'll be paid off in a year. Headaches still keep me from quality time with my family. I have a plan to retire with dignity and a large nest egg. And I have a thriving course and membership community."   Jacques Hopkins  12:37 I bet when you when you give these talks in person, that one wasn't in there.   David Krohse  12:40 That wasn't on there. No. So yeah, I mean, when I'm in person, I actually totally silent for like a minute and a half and people just write out a few of these things.   Jacques Hopkins  12:50 Man, that's great. A couple that come to mind, you know, I've put on the old Quarantine 15.   David Krohse  12:57 Is that right?   Jacques Hopkins  12:58 Yeah, yeah. So...   David Krohse  12:59 What caused it?   Jacques Hopkins  13:00 Man...   David Krohse  13:01 What was the guilty pleasure?   Jacques Hopkins  13:02 Well, not going to the gym. Right? And, you know, we talked about momentum earlier, it’s for me, like, if I'm going to the gym, it's easier to eat healthfully, right. And if I'm not, like it kind of goes. Some people, when they go to the gym, they feel like that's a card to be able to eat whatever they want. I'm the opposite. Like, I'm either doing 20 healthy things in a day or none, right? And so, it's important for me to get the day off to a good start. You know. If I have an unhealthy breakfast, and the day is just shot, that's just what I've recognized about myself. And so, I got into a really good gym routine, working it through my day, five days a week. And then, you know, lockdowns happened. COVID in March and [I] couldn't go to the gym anymore. And I really haven't been back since. So, you know, not to make excuses but that's the big thing for me.   David Krohse  13:52 Mm hmm. Yeah, for me, it's just again, it's this concept that right now, you know, physically, I have to be present taking care of patients for my main job. And that's kind of a, it creates stress, because I'm just so critical to my family's financial stability. And so, getting another doctor on, number one would create that stability, decrease stress. And then number two, that would free me up to work on things that I'm passionate about. Put more effort into the courses. I've got other ideas. I'm a little bit like Nate, I've got an idea for a YouTube channel. And I've got... I have an idea for a podcast that probably I couldn't do them all, but I think I could have these other passionate things that I'd be passionate about.   Jacques Hopkins  14:33 Yeah, well, you know, things like you bringing on another doctor would be huge in your in your practice, but if you bring on the wrong one, that's even more stress than not having them at all. So, it's very important that you, you do the proper vetting and whatnot, and hopefully it can serve that make things less stressful, not more.   David Krohse  14:50 Yeah, well Jacques that leads right into my next step. So, step number three is to hack your stressors in your goals. And so, I mean, just time and again in life I see where what seems like the obvious best answer is not. But I mean, in today's day and age, we have unlimited access to dig into what actually works on the internet and just find out: What is the crowdsourced best practices by people that actually geek out and try to fix their lives. Reading books, obviously, the best example in the books at an overall level would be 4-Hour Workweek, 4-Hour Body. I mean, like that guy. He says, yeah, you think this is the best way to do something, but is it? Let's actually test the hypothesis. Talk to people who have had success. So, finding a mentor, finding that exact person, that's three steps ahead of you that had the exact same problem that you had. And just talking to them, you know, like Nate said, back on his most recent visit, he said, he had an idea to start, like, an actual plant business in his town. And he's like, before I would do that, I would find people doing exactly what I'm doing. I want to do in the same size town and call them. He's like, I'd pay them $100 an hour to just tell me what the mistakes were what the best practices were. You know, I mean, the deal is, if you if you keep making a cake, and every time it comes out of the oven, it looks terrible and tastes bad. Like, what are you going to do?   Jacques Hopkins  16:13 That reminds me of...   David Krohse  16:15 You got to change the recipe, right?   Jacques Hopkins  16:16 Well, yeah, sorry. Yeah, you don't want to just keep doing it. But that reminds me of Andrew, the 18-year-old from Next Level Courses we've talked about many times here. He, you know, not to toot my horn, but he saw that I was doing things that he wanted to be doing, right? Teaching people music, he has a guitar, and he modeled his entire business and funnel off of mine, he calls his packages the same thing. And that's, that's great.   David Krohse  16:43 It's working.   Jacques Hopkins  16:44 It's working. You know what, now that it's working, he can probably tweak certain things and he can try things that he thinks about. Ideas that he's got. But now that he's got it working, it's so much less stressful to try to get it to work. Now. He's just got to keep making it better and better and better.   David Krohse  17:01 Okay, so step number four is going to be to use effective goal setting to take control of your life. And so, with effective goal setting, I mean, there's the whole S.M.A.R.T. acronym, - so Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-Bound. The two things that I find to be most important is in setting goals. So first off, I would say that effective goal setting is focused and intense. So again, I mean, you, you rate your stressors, you find one area is the problem, then you paint this picture of where you want that problem to be. I mean, for a period of time, putting all your energy into improving that spot, can have a huge effect. My favorite quote on this is by this guy, he's a football coach. I don't know you might have heard of him, Jacques. His name is Vince Lombardi. And have you heard him?   Jacques Hopkins  17:51 Yeah, I know a thing or two about Vince Lombardi. Yes.   David Krohse  17:54 Okay.   Jacques Hopkins  17:54 I'm a sports guy. You're not.   David Krohse  17:56 That's right. So, I don't I don't follow sports at all but the story, as I understand it, is that Vince Lombardi had this amazing amount of success. during a time when a lot of the other football coaches were developing these really complicated playbooks. And Vince Lombardi, he just had this really small number of plays, but they ran them just flawlessly on a consistent basis. And he had this amazing record. Jacques would know more about that. He was being interviewed, and somebody said, you know, "Why don't you have more plays?" so to speak. And he said, "You know, it's hard to be aggressive when you're confused." It's hard to be aggressive when you're confused. And I don't think there's a better quote for the life that we live in. I mean, we have so many distractions, when you really are in a bad place, or when you really want to reach a goal, it's time to take that attitude and just really focus on that most important goal. There are a couple examples of that in the podcast, obviously. Jacques and Nate, you guys did a review of the book The One Thing back in Episode 7 and 8. And kudos to you, Jacques. I mean, that's an episode that I'll go back and listen to I bet every six months, I put into my top 10 podcast episodes I've heard. So...   Jacques Hopkins  19:05 Wow. Thank you.   David Krohse  19:07 That is a valuable episode. So, Episode 7 and 8 of this Online Course Show Podcast where you guys talk about The One Thing. On the other example, this Stephanie Taylor's episode with Episode 144. You know, Stephanie said when she really wanted to reach a goal, she'd go on one of these green juice retreats, and she just hammer out a project over a few days. And, you know, here she is, with the super successful online course podcast, you know, Dream Business. So.   Jacques Hopkins  19:39 I was trying to write this down. Remind me of that quote from Vince Lombardi "It's hard to be aggressive when...?"   David Krohse  19:44 When you're confused   Jacques Hopkins  19:45 "...when you're confused." I like that a lot because I've been you know, the more time that passes, the more big I am into simplicity. So, I really resonate with... I didn't know that that's one of Vince Lombardi's things was fewer plays but done well. And that's, you know, that's my thing, one really good funnel, right? One really good course, you see these people that have, you know, twenty courses, and they're all very inexpensive and they don't really have much of a funnel. And you can, in a lot of cases, make a lot more money and help a lot more people by simplifying way down. One course, one offer. That's something I try to help people within Next Level Courses a lot, is I look at their business I'm like, "Man, this is confusing."   Jacques Hopkins  20:30 Like if I'm, if I'm visiting your website, if I'm a potential customer, this is just way too confusing for me, I've got, there's these seven different courses, and I don't know which one I would be a fit for, if any of them. And so, I try to get people to get down as close to one funnel in one offer as possible. And then the other thing I want to mention, just for a little context for you as a non-sports guy, Vince Lombardi, you know, though, are you familiar with like the Super Bowl? You know, what that is like the winner [of] the Super Bowl is the… what you win in the NFL, the trophy you get for winning the Super Bowl is the Lombardi Trophy.   David Krohse  21:07 Okay. No, I wouldn't have known that.   Jacques Hopkins  21:09 The trophy is named after him.   David Krohse  21:11 I did look up he was at Green Bay coach, correct?   Jacques Hopkins  21:14 Yes, he was the Green Bay coach. You know...   David Krohse  21:16 I got that part.   Jacques Hopkins  21:17 I have a cousin who started this big construction company about 10 years ago. And I remember when it was just in its infancy, he would I would talk to him. And he would watch this documentary, or I guess documentaries are a word, about Vince Lombardi. He'd watched it like every week. He said, "Dude, it's the most motivating thing. Like, I watch it and then I just go in and I crush it at work." It was just his story...   David Krohse  21:40 No way.   Jacques Hopkins  21:40 ...was so inspiring for my cousin. He just really resonated with that huge guy, but you know, played football. And yeah, it's really inspiring to hear stories like that. And I just really, really love that quote, and I appreciate you sharing it. "It's hard to be aggressive when you're confused." I think we can use that in marketing.   David Krohse  21:58 All right, well, Hey, can you track down that exact movie and share that in the show notes?   Jacques Hopkins  22:02 Yeah, I'll do my best to do that. Yep.   David Krohse  22:05 Okay. The other thing, effective goal setting has penalties for not getting things done. So especially as we talk about starting a side hustle, you actually retired from your career, and you're doing courses on full time. You know, this is a technique that I learned from you, Jacques, is just this concept of actually putting a penalty in place if you don't accomplish the goal, whether it's $100, that you have to pay your friend just calling up a friend and saying, hey, if I don't get this job done, I'm going to give you $100. You know, we talked in the past that you could do something kind of funny you could, you could make a commitment that if you don't get something done, you're going to have to give $100 to an organization that you can't stand, so joked about the Westboro Baptist Church, that's this terrible organization that like boycotts at funerals. If you said, if I don't get this important goal done, I have to send $100 to them. I mean, that's going to keep you motivated to get that goal done.   Jacques Hopkins  22:58 Yeah. So, I've got some updated thoughts on the penalty goals, by the way.   David Krohse  23:02 Oh, yeah. How's it going? Are you having to pay? Or you have to pay Nate more often?   Jacques Hopkins  23:05 No, I haven't set a penalty goal in a few months, honestly. A couple months.   David Krohse  23:09 Really?   Jacques Hopkins  23:10 Yeah. And real quick, this documentary, it's called, it's just called Simply Lombardi. It was on HBO, literally 10 years ago. It came out in 2010. And we'll link to it in the show notes. So, you know, Nate's my accountability partner, right? He has been for years, and we do these penalty goals we've talked about many times, that's what you just brought up. But ever since hiring Colleen, and in growing my team, I haven't felt the need to do that. And my thought is that when you don't have anybody else holding you accountable, you need things like penalty goals, to, to build that in. And I still highly recommend doing them if you don't have anybody else holding you accountable. But Colleen, you know, she's, she's essentially, in charge of operations for my whole business now. And if I don't get something done, I need to get done. She's all over me. Which is great!   David Krohse  24:06 Nice! That's perfect.   Jacques Hopkins  24:07 Which is what I need, right? So, we plan together, we figure out what I in the business need to do over the next week, month, quarter, year, and so on, we have a plan. And before her like I had plans before her, but if I didn't execute on those plans, there was nobody holding me accountable. Nobody. And so, I would have to go to Nate and be like, "Look, Nate, I need to get this done by this date. And if I don't, I'm going to pay you $100 or more." Right? But so, I haven't felt the need to do that since having her on board.   David Krohse  24:38 Did you do somewhere you put more than $100?   Jacques Hopkins  24:41 I think there was. There was a couple maybe one where it was it was like five different things I needed to get done all within the same project. So, each one was 100. And there was a couple of times where we had to do kind of double or nothing, but for the most part we just did $100.   David Krohse  24:55 Okay. Gotcha. Alright. Do you have any other things that are most important when you set goals?   Jacques Hopkins  25:01 Well, I wanted to ask you about this a little bit. And I'm curious about time framing in general, because you mentioned S.M.A.R.T. goals and the T is Timeframe, but typically, you know, like over here, I know listeners can't see me right now, but over here I have my 2020 goals posted that I posted just before the year started. And I did that last year as well. I posted it right above my monitor. And so, the biggest goal setting I do is yearly, but what is your recommendation on if our main goal should be yearly, quarterly, weekly, daily? What do you think?   David Krohse  25:37 Well, I mean, they're definitely, I mean, I think that a lot of people should be looking at the two to five year point and saying, you know, I know that when I first did this, this exercise, I mean, I was kind of down in a hole, especially financially, it wasn't going to be better in months, it was going to be a multi-year process. And so, a lot of us have things that, yeah, it's a two to five-year time period to really change your life. As far as how often you reevaluate, yeah, I mean, essentially, daily, weekly, monthly, would be best. Am I graded out all the time? No, not necessarily. But I will say just that, that idea of focusing on that one biggest thing. I mean, that's, that's a little bit more where I'm at when I really want to make progress.   Jacques Hopkins  26:25 Yeah.   David Krohse  26:26 The other things kind of fall by the wayside for a bit.   Jacques Hopkins  26:27 Yeah. And look, it's November right now, man, and I have not accomplished all these goals or six things up here. Fortunately, I would say the top one, I certainly have accomplished but about half of 'em I haven't. And I haven't, I probably haven't done a great job of reevaluating these goals as we move on. I mean, it's exact same piece of paper that's been out there. And there's a couple of them that aren't as relevant even anymore. Right? And I think that there's a lot of very successful business owners, people that I follow and look up to, that do things on a quarterly basis, like they'll meet before a quarter happens, and like plan out the whole quarter, and then execute on it the whole quarter. And I think there's a lot of power in that, I need to look into that more. I know, that's something that Colleen wants to be doing, as well, and starting to a little bit. But I think, from what I've seen on the outside, I think quarterly planning and goals is pretty powerful.   David Krohse  27:24 Exactly. And that is something you have to actually put it on the calendar. So that...   Jacques Hopkins  27:27 Yeah.   David Krohse  27:27 Otherwise, I mean, time just goes so fast. But along those lines of really time lining, where you want to be in the specific when you want to get the smaller steps done and when you're going to reach the bigger steps, I'll have a worksheet in this download that you can get through the show notes or over in the Online Course Community Facebook group. And it takes you through every step. So at the conclusion of this, you know, you sit down and you say, okay, clearly my biggest goal, my biggest stress point that I need to fix is this thing, you're going to work through that. And you might do two or three of those and put these exact timelines on that.   David Krohse  28:01 So, what I'd like to jump into next is basically, Jacques and I just sharing some of the hacks on these things that we found in our life that actually worked. Jacques, you already shared one, which is cold showers. I didn't know that that was something that you did. But I'd like to hear just, you know, how you basically have made your life as good as possible. And so, I wanted to start with relationships, just this category of relationships. And I'll go ahead and start by sharing just a couple little hacks on how to find your ideal soulmate. So, again, a little bit off topic. Some of these you're going to hear and then you might say, "Yeah, it does actually kind of apply to a course."   David Krohse  28:43 So, this really wise, wise, wise older guy, he told me the story a while back long before I met Val, and he said that he had two sons. And when each son turned 18, he had them sit down, and he said, I'm going to have you make four lists. And the first list he had them write out he said, "I want you to write down everything you look for in your, your life partner, your spouse." And so, they made that whole list. And then he said, "Okay, I want you to look really closely at that. I want you to imagine that that ideal soulmate is sitting there, and they're making their list of what they look for in their soulmate." And he's like that's the second list write down everything they're looking for. So, they finish that list. Then he says, "Okay, the third list is going to be what do you need to do to become the person that you just described in that list number two? So, what classes do you need to take? Is there some incongruence in how you dress, your financial situation? What do you need to do to become the ideal person for who you just described? And it says, "Okay, the fourth list is where are you going to meet that person? And write it out. Where are all the places that that person is hanging out?" And, you know, this is goal setting for finding love.   David Krohse  29:57 But, you know, I was single you know, 2009, and I sat there, and I made the list. And the first three were pretty clear. But then I got to the where am I going to meet this person. And again, I'm a chiropractor, I'm like, not going to meet it at my team, as far as staff. No patients, and I'm like, you know, looking back at past relationships, I'm like, the main places that would be natural for me to meet one of these ladies would be yoga classes, or the dog park, just because I'm generally going to connect with somebody that's a more natural, holistic person. But I remember just thinking, like, I would look terrible in some Lululemon spandex. And, you know, the idea of trying to hit on a lady at the end of a yoga class, I'm like, that just is not going to work. And then my dog at the time, his name was George, but he was a super-aggressive dog. So, I remember just looking at George across the room, it just totally given him the hairy eyeball, because I'm like, the dog park would be a perfect place to meet my ideal woman. But here, my dog would end up attacking their dog. It's like, I'd have to get a second dog just to meet a woman.   David Krohse  31:04 The one thing that I would say, like I shared that at these at these actual talks, and somebody came up to me afterwards, or she actually came as an in as a patient. And she said, "You know, I have a husband, I'm set there, but she's like, I don't have any actual female friends." And she said, "I'm going to do that exercise." And she said, "I can see like, I'm not spending time in the place where my kindred spirits are hanging out." She's like, "I'm going to find friends." The third thing is that if you look at Russell Brunson, and his Traffic Secrets, his idea of finding your dream 100 [is a] very similar process to this.   Jacques Hopkins  31:43 So, did you meet your wife at a dog park?   David Krohse  31:47 No.   Jacques Hopkins  31:48 I thought this is where we're going with this.   David Krohse  31:50 No, no, after doing that, I was like, it's going to have to be online dating. So yeah, it would have to be online dating. And actually, that does lead into I was going to make another little interesting advice for anybody who's out there single. After doing this exercise, I was, like, I'm going to have to do online dating. And so, I joined a few different sites. And I set up this date, and it was like this entire evening planned, went, and met the lady. And within five minutes, I'm like, "Oh, no, like, this was terrible, because I got like, a five hour, you know, thing planned here, and I want out already." And so, I told my friend Matt, and Matt was like, "Dude, you never plan an entire evening, you got to plan the online date first date?" And I was like, "What's that?" And he said, he said, "That's where you like, tell them that you want to meet for coffee at like 4 o'clock. And, you know, you just meet for coffee and you tell him you have to meet some other people at like 6." And so, there's, there's a deadline, he says "If it goes great, then you plan a real day. If it doesn't go great, then you know, you're only out an hour." And I was like, okay, so I did that for like all these dates. And it was a big mistake because these dates felt like an interview. And at the end of the hour, I'd be like, I don't know if I want to see this this person again. I'd be like, just kind of be like awkward. I'd be like, "well, maybe I'll see you around." So anyways, I was like this is not working. I started listening to the Art of Charm podcast.   Jacques Hopkins  33:18 Yep.   David Krohse  33:19 You've listened to it before?   Jacques Hopkins  33:20 Yeah, it's I think it is still around. But Jordan Harbinger, right? And..   David Krohse  33:24 Yeah.   Jacques Hopkins  33:24 ...who's not part of it anymore. He's got his own podcast now. Jordan Harbinger Show.   David Krohse  33:28 Right. Art of Charm, Jordan Harbinger. And somewhere on there, this guy was saying he's like, even if you just do that copy date, he's like, you have to bring, you have to have something that builds chemistry, some activity that can build a connection. And this guy said that he actually brought a Connect 4 playing game. And he'd be like, he planned an online date, and he'd be like, "Oh, by the way, you're going to get your butt kicked at Connect 4." And, you know, the next date. I like, the lady actually said that she liked playing board games, but I brought a Scrabble board. And the date had so much more chemistry. So, when I met Val, it was actually the idea was, we met outside a coffee shop. And then we were going to get coffee, and then go for a walk around the sculpture park. And the rest is history. But...   Jacques Hopkins  34:14 Nicely done. That reminds me of this very podcast and finding guests for the podcast because, you know, my assistant, Emily is the primary person that kind of does research and sees who might be a good fit. Obviously, I've got other connections too. And I usually ask for guest of the podcast for recommendations to but I'm, I'm always trying to find new people to come on interview other successful course graders and all kinds of niches. And what I found was, you know, she would go find somebody, we would agree that it seemed like a fit. And then the first time I would meet that person would be the interview, right? And I found one, one thing I've been doing lately, and I don't think you know this, is I've been doing more of a 10-minute chat to meet the person first and then we schedule the hour podcast interview. And that's been going really well because it's not the first time I'm meeting that person. We already have a little bit of rapport. Because I was finding that it would take the first 10-15 minutes of the hour conversation to really click and build that rapport. But now you're making me think that I should do like virtual Connect 4 with person on that first meeting.   David Krohse  35:22 No.   Jacques Hopkins  35:22 No?   David Krohse  35:23 Well, and to draw a parallel to something more real to course creators, I mean, some people still want to do like a sales page and just let people buy their course. I mean, just the advantages of a funnel, and, you know, a sales page. The thing I'd say about those first online or the in-person coffee dates, if you said on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best date that you could possibly imagine in your life, how good can sitting at a coffee shop for an hour be? It's like, for me, even if I was sitting across the coolest person in the world, it's still like a 3 out of 10 because it's just sitting there having coffee. We're not sharing an experience. And so, some people want to sell a course through just a sales page. People can buy any time. When you compare that with the funnel, I mean, again, you know, go through one of Jacques' funnels to go through his Piano in 21 days funnel and experience that relationship that you build. I mean, again, when Jacques, let's see here, when I decided to buy Jacques's course, on how to make online courses, it was $700. But I've been following his podcast I got through his funnel, which at the time was like a Product Launch Formula sequence with the videos. I was out on a bike ride on a Saturday morning at eight o'clock, I got your email, I stopped on a gravel road and gave you $700 to join your course on online courses. I mean, you had you had wined and dined me Jacques and I was ready to go.   Jacques Hopkins  36:44 Yeah, we hadn't.. We had never spoken at that point.   David Krohse  36:47 No.   Jacques Hopkins  36:47 It was just my funnel doing its thing.   David Krohse  36:49 Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, funnel, and just that building the relationship. Huge.   David Krohse  36:55 All right. So family, do you have any advice or any what are your top tips on relationship with your spouse, relationship with your kids?   Jacques Hopkins  37:04 Yeah, the biggest thing with my wife, I think is, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, but the Five Love Languages, I think is a total game-changer. And it's, it's something that really 80/20 a relationship with your significant other is, you've got to at least know what each other's love languages are. I think it's just important to know what your own is as your spouse's so you can understand why you get upset or disappointed about certain things, versus others. And so, I'm sure it's so popular now, but I guess there probably are plenty of people that haven't either read it or, you can just Google the Five Love Languages and understand what they are. But there's tools and things in the book to help you determine what yours is what your spouse's is, but that's, that's always on my mind when I'm interacting with my wife because our love languages are so different than each other.   Jacques Hopkins  37:57 And as far as you know, as far as the kids go, you know, relationships, my biggest thing with relationships is intentionality, right? Actually, having intention behind the things you're doing, the things you want to do. And so, things like knowing the Five Love Languages with my wife, well, with the kids, you know, my kids are three and five, that those are tough ages. There's a lot of, there's a lot of emotions, there's a lot of, you know, their big thing right now is tattling. Like they're constantly just telling us, she touched me, she did this, she did like so most of us are not just naturally good at how to handle three-year-olds and five-year-olds. And that you know what, next year, there'll be four and six, and there's a whole different set of problems that come with that. And so, learning from people that know what they're talking about, have been there before.   Jacques Hopkins  38:43 A few months ago, I read an amazing book called How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen and How to Listen So Little Kids Will Talk. I think there's a the original version drops the title It was called How To Talk So Kids Will Listen How To Listen So Kids Will Talk and then they came back, I think it's the original author's daughter actually wrote the second version, which is more for two, it says on the cover from two to seven years old. I'm like, this is perfect. And it gave me all kinds of tips and strategies on how to deal with these little minds. And it opened, it just it opened my mind. You know, if I could give you an example of there's just so many tactics in it. And my daughter, my five year old was upset about something a couple weeks ago, I don't even remember, but one of the tactics in the book was to kind of, like draw it, like draw what you're feeling, draw what you're thinking. It's like, it's like, oh, man, that must be so rough. Can we like, can we draw a picture of it? And like, I would never tell my wife to do that. But that's just a tactic that works for that age group. And she drew this picture and we and I sat down with her and, and I was like, Well, what about this? What about that and you 10 minutes later, we had drawn this picture and she forgot about whatever the problem was, and I would have never known to do something like that without having read this book. And I think a lot of people when they're struggling with something or they're stressed about something, they just try to figure out completely on their own. When there's people out there, you just got to find them that that have the solution for you.   David Krohse  40:10 Yeah, well, I 100% agree on those, the five love languages. For listeners, we actually did an entire episode focused on the five love languages for course creators. Jacques and I shared how it works in our own families. So that's Episode 111. And yeah, I'd encourage you to go back and listen to that. As far as like a single rule for our household, I would say that the one little rule that we try to follow is "be easy to impress, and hard to depress." So be easy to impress, and hard to depress. So, I mean, it's be easy to impress. It's like, you know, Jacques, if you're there working on one of your online course projects, and your daughter, Annecy, see, she's four years old. She's been over there, like, working on this picture for a long time. And she brings it up to you, you know, do you say like, "Oh, that's nice." It's like, No, I mean, you got to be like, "This is amazing!" Like, Annecy, this is awesome! I'm so proud of you." And like, in your head, you're like, I hope I'm holding it up right. But like, you know.   Jacques Hopkins  41:10 So, you know what's funny? Let me, I know you don't have kids. But that what you just said is actually goes against what's in this book I just mentioned,   David Krohse  41:19 Oh, man. Well. You know. I don't have children.   Jacques Hopkins  41:22 You said, you said two things. And that's the title. It's, it's you would never think that telling somebody their art is amazing and I'm proud of you intuitively that that's a problem. And this this may be controversial but if you've got young kids to seven, I highly recommend this book. But the thought is that we as parents tell our kids they're doing like, every little thing is amazing and it's a great job, like, I'll catch myself like my, my three year old goes down the side, I'm like, oh, great job. It's like, because she put her booty down and let gravity do something like, we need to save those things for things that are truly amazing, truly a great job. And we're building up false, like false, I don't know their self-esteem, maybe I don't, that's not the right word, but it's not genuine either. Like, if it's not amazing, like, don't say that it's amazing. But to your point in the book that the way they want to, they want you to interact with that. Because would you say you want to impress and not depress?   David Krohse  41:23 Be easy to impress, and hard to depress.   Jacques Hopkins  41:25 Right? So, what you do, you don't want to just like, blow it off. And you'd also don't want to just say it's the world's greatest piece of art. What you do is you look at you be like, "Oh, my goodness, like, look at those red lines over there. Like, tell me about that. What are those? Why do you think to do this over here? Oh, wow. Okay, that's interesting. And what is this over here? Okay. And then, you know, what, if you added a little more blue over here?" Just like really get into it like that. That's kind of how the book recommended doing.   David Krohse  42:51 Okay, I can see that. Yeah, interact with. Yeah, you show you show how you're impressed you are by interacting with what they're doing.   Jacques Hopkins  42:59 Yeah. And then they can see that you are genuinely interested in it and it opens up a conversation. And it's a fun way to just get to know your kid even more as well and understand what they were thinking when they did certain things. Right now, my five-year-old is drawing things you can pretty much tell what they are. My three-year-old is still doing wavy lines, but it's the same conversation either way. It's like, oh, why don't you do these lines blue and these sides pink? Tell me about that?   David Krohse  43:24 Mm hmm. Exactly. Yeah, and certainly with our wives, too. I mean, it's like, you know, my wife and I have way different interests. In the last couple days Val, you know, we all go off on these research tangents on the internet, at least I think most of us do. And she has become, like just this researcher of the different types of wool. And so, so she sat there for like, 45 minutes telling me about alpaca wool and yak wool. And I was just like, oh, my goodness, but, you know, it's I'm like, okay, I'm interested, I actively engage and just share her enthusiasm on these alpaca wool types that she wants for Christmas.   Jacques Hopkins  44:08 Well, if it, yeah, if it if it excites her...   David Krohse  44:10 But it is reciprocated as well because she does that. You know, if I come home, and I'm excited, you know, she, she returns that for me.   Jacques Hopkins  44:17 Yeah, well said.   David Krohse  44:19 The other thing that the be hard to depress, I mean, it's like, especially as parents, I think, you know, you guys can get hung up on one little thing, like, again, the tattling it's like, or where the kids put their shoes. It's like in the scheme of the child's life that's not the end of the world thing. So and certainly yeah, in our relationship with my wife and I, it's like, you know, kind of another rule is like "never let one sentence ruin the night" and so I don't know, we work on that. I stick my foot in my mouth and then it takes things the wrong direction and it's like,"Oh, honey, let's not let this entire evening go south. Let's get back on the same page." And we have mixed results with that.   David Krohse  45:02 Alright. As far as work, the book for me that to have better relationships at work would be the How to Win Friends and Influence People, which the biggest, the biggest takeaway with that is just become actively interested in the people around you. What they're into, you know, ask people like, ask people that you've never really talked to very much what's your thing? You know, what do you get excited about? What's your thing? It’s just, learn about those people and you'll find that you'll enjoy, enjoy anyone you interact with more as a result.   Jacques Hopkins  45:34 You know, that's the first self-help book I've ever read. Back in 2000, I think 2007, I was just going through something and I picked up to I went on I guess I went on Amazon, maybe and I just did a little research and I bought two self-helpy type books, and I'd never done that before. Okay. One was, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And if anybody if you've never read that it's one of the most popular books of all time, right? Dale Carnegie, is it?   David Krohse  46:00 Yes.   Jacques Hopkins  46:01 It's very, very old. But a lot of it still applies. You know what the second book was?   David Krohse  46:05 Seven Habits, I guess.   Jacques Hopkins  46:07 4-Hour Workweek.   David Krohse  46:09 Oh, wow. Talk about a checkpoint.   Jacques Hopkins  46:12 Yeah.   David Krohse  46:12 Or an induction point.   Jacques Hopkins  46:13 Absolutely. Books are powerful man.   David Krohse  46:15 Oh, man.   Jacques Hopkins  46:15 You know. And my biggest takeaway that I still use to this day from that book, the first one - How to Win Friends and Influence People - was I forget exactly how he put it, but just remembering people's names. How important that is. And in so that's, that's really... my wife... One of my pet peeves is when people say I'm bad at names. It's like, no, you're not bad at names, you just don't try. My wife will say that I'm just bad at people's names. And I pride myself on remembering people's names when I meet them. Like you, the trick is to say their name a couple of times in the conversation. It's like, Hey, I'm Jacques. Oh, hey, I'm John. Oh, Hi, John. It's nice to meet you. Now, John, what you know what brings you here? You know, you say it a couple of times. And that's what helps you remember. And then I'll see, I'll see people that I met one time and a year later, that's not always, but I'll remember their name. And my wife will be like, "how do you do that?" So that's what I was my biggest takeaway from that book.   David Krohse  47:08 Yeah, the one thing that book has such a sleazy title, I mean, there might be people out in the audience that are like, "Man, these two guys, I used to respect them. But now I think they're a couple of sleaze-balls." If you read the book, if you read the book like that, an appropriate title, but one that wouldn't be near as good at sales would be How to Build Up Those Around You and Enjoy Life More Because Of It. I mean you, when you follow the tactics in this book, you build people up. You make them, you bring them joy, you make them happier, and you enjoy life more because of it. And then these people want to reciprocate. And basically, you know, they want to help you. You end up with all these loyal fans if you just put the book in action. But it's not a sleazy book. You know, there's a lesson in marketing there, because the title is totally scammy. But it's sleazy.   Jacques Hopkins  47:56 Yeah, agree. It's been many years since I've read it. So, you're making me want to go back through it for sure.   David Krohse  48:01 Now, you were a project manager. Are there any other books, I know you've shared Good to Great, is there any other like business book that really jumps out?   Jacques Hopkins  48:09 Good to Great. But see, here's the thing, like, are we talking about helping you in your existing job or helping you get out of that and get into some sort of online business?   David Krohse  48:20 I mean, the best books probably do both. But is there one that comes to mind?   Jacques Hopkins  48:24 No, not really, I mean, Good to Great is good, because it can actually help with both areas. It's about why, why some companies are just good, and what's the difference between just good versus great companies. And so I certainly read that back when I was working, trying to improve what I was doing because I you know, I didn't own the company, but I was trying to rise, rise up the ranks. Nothing else comes to mind. I mean, as far as career like if somebody says, "Hey, what's your, what do you recommend?" I would say, okay, Experts Secrets, 4-Hour Workweek, Story brand. You know, that's, that's my online course books recommendations.   David Krohse  48:58 Yeah. So the last thing I mentioned, if you download the handout on how to establish your goals, one of them is there anybody that you need to handle as far as somebody that's going to keep you from reaching your goals? And so, there are books I mean, if you have somebody in your life that drags you down, keeps you from happiness, there's a book called Boundaries that Dave Ramsey recommends really highly. That one is very religious, has a lot of religious stuff, so, but find that book and see what else is there. I mean, there are best practices for actually handling people that don't let you reach your goals.   David Krohse  49:33 So, let's jump into some health hacks. So, I'd really like to share my personal story. You were talking about dropping your Quarantine 15, and I think my little story about basically becoming healthy, it has some instructive value. So essentially, in 2009, I was 40 pounds heavier than I am right now.   Jacques Hopkins  49:52 No.   David Krohse  49:53 Yeah, I was I was a little chunky monkey. But uh, you know, essentially I thought I was eating pretty good diet. Well, and that's a lot. I'm only 5'7," so how tall are you, Jacques, anyway?   Jacques Hopkins  50:05 Six feet even.   David Krohse  50:06 No way.   Jacques Hopkins  50:07 Why? You thought I was shorter?   David Krohse  50:08 I thought you're 5'10"   Jacques Hopkins  50:10 I mean two inches. Yeah, I'm right at six feet, man.   David Krohse  50:13 Alright, very good. Alright. So, I was frustrated here. I was trying to be a sports chiropractor and I was significantly overweight. Went into this other chiropractor's office, and the last time I'd seen him, he'd been overweight - looked kind of like me - and I went in there and this guy was lean and mean. Asked him what he done, and he said he'd done this thing called the Standard Process Purification Program. He's like, I dropped 21 pounds at 21 days, and then I just kept doing it essentially. He's like, I'm down 60 pounds. And he's like, I remember the quote, he said, he said, "You know, I feel better than I have in years, I'm running 15 miles a week. And when I when I give advice to patients, he's like, it's congruent with who I am now." And so, I went home, I researched this thing, and I did it. It basically had the same result. I dropped 15 pounds in 21 days. Added in like eggs and cottage cheese and dropped in another 10 pounds. And essentially, I was down 25 pounds from 175 pounds. I've maintained that ever since. And the rules of this thing are basically going to be whole thirties. So, it's a few simple rules. It's like unlimited vegetables and fruit, but in a two to one ratio. You know, some healthy proteins, healthy fats. You know, a little bit of quinoa or lentils, but you cut out all the grains, dairy, processed foods, extra sugars.   David Krohse  51:32 So, a couple years went by and I found this book. I don't, I think I heard about it on Ben Greenfield's fitness podcast, but the book is called Why We Get Fat and What to Do About It.   Jacques Hopkins  51:41 Gary Taubes?   David Krohse  51:43 Have you read it?   Jacques Hopkins  51:43 I've read it, man.   Jacques Hopkins  51:44 Gary Taubes? Have you? Oh, man. Okay, so I'd like to just talk through the key takeaways from this book because the thing is, all the common knowledge says calorie in versus calorie out, if you want to lose weight, all you have to do is eat less and exercise more. In this book says there's this third factor that's way more important. So, I'm going to ask a couple questions to you Jacques here and go ahead and play along with me. So, I want you to imagine like a 12-year-old girl hits puberty, and her hips get wider, her breasts get bigger. She got more fat. What caused her to get more fat?   Jacques Hopkins  52:20 Well, obviously, it's because she, she took in more calories than she burned. Hormones. So.   David Krohse  52:27 Hormones, exactly. Alright, so imagine that this aspiring bodybuilder starts injecting himself with some testosterone? Is he going to gain weight?   Jacques Hopkins  52:40 Most likely he would gain muscle. Yes.   David Krohse  52:43 Yes. And is he going to be more hungry?   Jacques Hopkins  52:46 Yes, he is.   David Krohse  52:48 Okay, so he's going to gain weight? And what caused both the weight gain and the hunger?   Jacques Hopkins  52:52 Well, I think the answer is going to be the hormone testosterone.   David Krohse  52:57 Hormones. Exactly. Alright. And then this actually happened in my office. I have this 11-year-old girl in my office. She's an elite gymnast. She's practicing 16 hours a week, and she's getting injured as a result. Her mom comes in her mom is 5'10". Her dad comes in and drops her off one night or comes in with her. He's six, four. So, let me ask you a question. Do you think this girl is going to the Olympics for gymnastics?   Jacques Hopkins  53:21 No.   David Krohse  53:22 I don't think so either. What's going to keep her from going to the Olympics?   Jacques Hopkins  53:27 Height.   David Krohse  53:28 Her height. At some point hormones are going to kick in.   Jacques Hopkins  53:31 Yeah.   David Krohse  53:32 So even if she works out, you know, 16, 20 hours a week, even if she starves herself, when those hormones kick in, it's going to pull her up to where she's destined to be. So, I mean, what we just said is that hormones can make you fat, they can make you gain weight, they can make you hungry. And hormones are more powerful than eating less and exercising more. Again, that gymnast starves herself, works out 20 hours a week. They're going to pull her kicking and screaming. It's so yeah, powerful book. Once I read that book, it's like everything clicked on how to be as slim as I wanted to be.   Jacques Hopkins  54:03 Yeah, I think the biggest problem with that book is that people will read it and say that calories don't matter at all.   David Krohse  54:11 No.   Jacques Hopkins  54:12 And my opinion is that they just maybe aren't quite as important as we thought. So, I agree hormones play a huge role. It's not quite as simple as calories in calories out. But that does not mean that that doesn't matter. And we're getting way into the weeds right now. And nutrition and health can be extremely controversial. Right?   David Krohse  54:32 Sure.   Jacques Hopkins  54:35 So that that's my opinion there. But I'm glad you brought it up as well.   David Krohse  54:39 Okay. Do you have any other health hacks? You already shared about cold showers.   Jacques Hopkins  54:42 Yeah, I'll share a few. Yeah, and by the way, I would love to give you some homework, man. If you've never tried a cold shower, I would try it. I don't do it every day. But you feel amazing afterwards.   David Krohse  54:55 Well, Val does. She does a hot shower and then the last minute she turned on to cold.   Jacques Hopkins  54:59 That's a good way to it.   David Krohse  55:00 Is that how you do it?   Jacques Hopkins  55:01 No, I just do, I just do it cold. I just turn it on cold from the start. And then I slowly get in there, wash my hair and stuff really quickly and then and then get out.   David Krohse  55:11 It sounds horrific.   Jacques Hopkins  55:13 It is horrific. But I you know, I in 2020 Well,
111 minutes | 3 months ago
157: Running a Successful Membership that is ALL about the COMMUNITY (Featuring Zac Small & Craig James)
Today we’re doing a few things differently, so get ready: we have two guests and zero “traditional” online courses involved. But don’t worry, because my discussion with Craig and Zach of Fraternity of Excellence is still super-relevant to many aspects of having a more typical online course business or membership model. “Don’t let the fear of not being perfect when you launch keep you from launching.” – Craig James “Inside a membership community, it’s all about relationships.” – Zach Small In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:40) Dr. K is back: where was he and what do lizards have to do with it? (6:18) Our Asheville, NC recommendations + David’s ideal Instagrammer (8:47) Getting recognized “in the wild” (10:27) An update on my quest for the ultimate course platform (11:37) Creating course content with other teachers and how I’ve set up compensation (14:25) Setting the stage for today’s interview (17:09) Why and how Craig and Zach partnered to create their membership site (21:06) The 4-Hour Workweek mindset versus the community-based membership model (21:35) Bootstrapping and their early business models (24:35) Figuring out pricing with nothing to compare to (27:38) The challenge of communicating value in exclusivity (28:56) How Craig and Zach would change their approach to pricing if they were starting over (30:27) Who their audience is and how they provide value to their niche (33:18) How Craig and Zach’s offer has evolved (36:25) A favorite story of how their group impacted one of their members (39:11) How Zach quit his day job as their membership grew (42:53) Getting started with their site and figuring out best tools and software (46:21) Slack, “babies,” and focusing on the end goal (50:47) Is the paid version of Slack worth it? (53:00) How Craig and Zach make sure their membership never gets too big for its own good? (55:32) The pen name dilemma (1:03:41) Live events: how important are they? (1:07:19) What Craig and Zach do to prevent member churn and encourage community-building (1:10:35) Dealing with trolls and naysayers (1:15:40) Making partnerships work (1:18:43) Advice for new and aspiring course or membership creators (1:22:19) David’s questions about the appeal of membership to me (1:24:08) App development stories (plus an AI interruption) (1:31:25) A not-so-shocking reveal (1:34:36) Thinking about the challenges inherent to partnerships (1:38:26) How I handle trolling plus how David avoided impersonating Michael Scott (1:48:46) Finding the line between trolling and constructive criticism (1:50:14) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Fraternity of Excellence Family Alpha Masculine by Design Resources and Recommendations: Chandler Corbin Tupelo Honey Cafe Pizza Mind Upwork Fiverr Paid Memberships Pro Slack Zoom Episode 95 David’s video about running Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
79 minutes | 4 months ago
156: “How do I manage the day-to-day vs. higher level vision?” Plus Other Questions Answered by Jacques (A Next Level Courses Q&A Recording)
Among the many perks of being an online course creator, something that never ceases to delight me is how amazing the course creator community can be and how much we can all learn from each other! That’s why I’m loving my Next Level Courses group and the course creators who are there teaching in every niche imaginable. Today’s episode showcases a live Q&A with my Next Level Courses students. Every week we meet online and dig into all things online courses together. Some are new to the online course world, others have been doing this for some time But no matter where each member of the group is at, it’s awesome to be able to put our heads together and encourage each other to take things to the next level. “It’s not just for passive income… we genuinely want to help people.” – Jacques Hopkins In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:32) What makes today’s episode different (2:17) The premise behind my advice (2:46) Bringing on my first guest and regular Next Level Courses Q&A attendee, Kristi (4:19) Growth and transitions (8:46) What makes Kristi’s approach unique (10:37) How we initially connected and started working together (12:07) Thinking about how processes evolve (14:23) Priorities and scheduling (19:12) Kristi’s takeaways from a previous podcast episode (21:48) Bringing on my next guest, Renato, for questions about webinar engagement (27:48) Cleaning up email lists (30:14) Advice and questions for Renato (33:01) Implementing Profit First (34:58) Bringing on Andrew, and thoughts on how to pronounce a very common word from the online course world (36:10) How to improve storytelling and demonstrating value (41:16) Thoughts on Andrew’s webinar (42:59) What he’ll be working on next (44:08) Bringing on Liz for questions about showing social proof (50:47) How to frame the opportunity (56:24) Transitioning from in-person teaching to online community-building (58:04) Bringing on Matt to discuss evergreen funnels and cold traffic conversions (1:02:31) Evaluating ups and downs in sales (1:05:42) How important is consistency vs. flagship content on YouTube? (1:11:00) Building trust without revealing too much of the “secret sauce” early on (1:16:54) Wrapping up + why you shouldn’t procrastinate on signing up for Next Level Courses That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Books and Resources: Episode 31 Episode 148 Profit First Expert Secrets Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
97 minutes | 4 months ago
155: The 4 Simple Steps for Succeeding with SEO for Your Online Course (featuring Matthew Woodward)
What’s an acronym that strikes fear in the heart of just about anyone with an online presence? If you guessed SEO, you were right – and I definitely count myself among the many who are intimidated by the topic of search engine optimization! But today’s guest is Matthew Woodward, and he’s here to demystify SEO and share how online course creators can make smart SEO choices: no matter what stage of the online course business journey they are on. I learned a lot during our conversation, and I think you will, too! “If you build something that humans love, Google will usually love it as well.” – Matthew Woodward In This Episode, We Talked About: (0:42) Thoughts on busyness and what I’ve been working on (6:43) An update from David and why I don’t currently teach kids (8:30) Getting lighting audits (11:22) Where I’m at with platform decisions (12:25) David’s latest suggestion for my Facebook ads (16:44) The deeper meaning of Next Level Courses (20:32) Why I was interested in today’s guest pitch (22:03) Introducing Matthew and our topic of the day (24:15) How a new course creator should approach SEO (27:36) Different ways to handle the pros and cons of LearnDash (31:05) Should I use multiple subdomains? (33:46) Why WordPress is still the gold standard (35:34) Matthew’s recommended funnel resources for new course creators (38:52) How he handles his launches and similarities with my own funnel (41:21) Building good SEO – how complicated is it really? (43:47) What’s behind the smoke and mirrors of SEO strategy (45:08) Why load-time matters (48:12) Ranking for specific keywords (52:54) Tailoring content for SEO (54:59) What about other search engines besides Google? (58:04) The importance of link-building (1:02:00) A risk of incautious link-building (1:04:25) What do SEO agencies do? (1:07:27) Is Matthew against running ads? (1:08:43) How SEO evolves over time (1:12:31) Matthew’s course and who it’s for (1:15:00) His calls-to-action and scarcity (1:16:26) Thoughts on the power of observation (1:18:13) How get in touch with Matthew personally (1:19:19) David and I discuss takeaways from today’s interview (1:20:27) Is SEO addictive? (1:22:19) Developing quality content for SEO (1:24:47) Affiliates, Reddit, and top-ranking results for Piano In 21 Days (1:30:31) Will I ever do SEO fully in-house? (1:33:11) Our ever-evolving catchphrase (1:34:04) A shoutout for one of my youngest Next Level Courses members (1:36:14) Wrapping up That’s all for now, folks! See you on the next episode of The Online Course Show.   Links Offers and Tools: Bonjoro Free Trial ClickFunnels Free Trial Win of the Week Guest Links: Matthew’s website 90-Day SEO 6x Ways to Increase Website Speed How to Write Killer Website Content That Attracts People Podcast-Jacking for Links, Traffic, and Authority Link-Building Services: What You REALLY Need to Know Books and Resources: Make Time The Miracle Morning BuddyBoss LearnDash Master Fingerstyle Guitar Perfmatters Product Launch Formula Thrive Architect ULKU Logistics Jacques’ Courses: The Online Course Accelerator Next Level Courses Piano in 21 Days David’s Courses: Wellness Program Expert Transcript Email Download New Tab Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by
138 minutes | 4 months ago