Listen Now

George Lois. The story of George Lois is the story of a Greek American rabble-rousing pugilist from the rough streets of The Bronx who has spent most of his life fighting against social injustice and fighting tooth and nail for his art.   The first time I heard of George Lois was while watching Art & Copy, a 2009 documentary about the advertising industry in the US. My memory was of an angry bald man who had done some legendary work in his time. George was 88 years old when I sat down with him. He had on a black hoodie, less hacker more wizard who could probably conjure up some pretty serious black magic if you fucked with him. Be warned, George likes to curse! George was inducted into The Art Directors Hall of Fame, The Advertising Hall of Fame, Copywriters Hall of Fame, The One Club Creative Hall of Fame, and The American Advertising Federation Hall of Fame. That’s a lot of Halls. He’s published 11 books including best sellers, “Damn Good Advice”, “George Lois on His Creation of the Big Idea”, and “What’s the Big Idea? How to Win with Outrageous Idea” - to name a few. I could only imagine what he was like as a young 27-year-old working alongside the great Bill Bernbach at DDB, the first creative agency in the world - as George put it. He was fearless, brash, and incredibly talented. George is best known for the covers he created for Esquire magazine in the 1960s, arguably the best and most provocative the publisher has ever had. Many of those covers are now kept at the MOMA. He is also known for his culture-creating advertising work. He coined the phrase, “I want my MTV” which all you Gen-Xers will appreciate. He is also famous for launching Tommy Hilfiger’s brand. The list is very long. The original interview was more than two hours long, but I edited it down to less than one. It took far too long to complete. I would like to blame the pandemic, but instead I accuse resistance. I sat down with George at his East Village home in February 2020 for this interview, arranged by his son Luke, an accomplished photographer, who joins us during the interview.                              

NILS ANDERSSON I am joined today in Shanghai by Nils Andersson. The first thing you notice about Nils is how tall he is. His Dad was a Viking from Sweden. His Mom was from Durham in the North of England. I am going to go out on a limb and say that Nils is the Phil Jackson or Alex Ferguson of the advertising industry here in Asia. He won’t tell you outright, perhaps that’s the reserved Swede in him, but he loves competition and he loves to win. His two loves in life have always been art and sport. Oh, art is art, and sport is sport, and never the twain shall meet. Well, the twain did meet and this is what we got. He’s won it all. For the past two years, he was Asia Pacific Creative of the Year. He also gave TBWA their highest ever regional ranking before he made his exit. He was ranked creative of the year for Greater China three years in a row.  The agencies he’s worked at here in China - Ogilvy, Y&R, and TBWA - have all been ranked agency of the year under his leadership. He and his teams have done stunning and award-winning work for the likes of Motorola, the Gap, and Penguin. We discuss these brands and more in our interview. So, please enjoy. If you have any questions or comments don’t hesitate to leave them.  As always, if you care please share.

NORMAN TAN How does the eighth child in a family of thirteen children emerge as one of the most awarded advertising creatives in Asia and still manage a laid back smile? Please listen in on my conversation with Norman Tan, formerly Chairman and Chief Creative Officer of North Asia at JWT and now head honcho at “onbrand” a new type of agency that offers top shelf creative at reassuringly expensive rates. To find out what it actually takes to make great work, we look back at two of his most famous campaigns, “Key Auntie” for Alipay and “Human Traffic Signs” for Buick. Show you care, subscribe and share.  

We’re in a small sound booth at the Santa Monica headquarters of Headspace, the health company that guides people to mindfulness through meditation. I’m here with Caroline Pay, currently Chief Creative Officer at Headspace. Caroline was Co-Chief Creative Officer at Grey London, considered one of the most creative agencies in what is arguably one of the most competitively creative cities in the world. She has also led creative teams at BBH and Mother amongst others. I mention a few pieces of work that Caroline has done in the intro, from the highly acclaimed work for Levi’s, “Dangerous Liaison” to a short film she wrote with Chris Palmer, “The Boy with Chocolate Fingers.”  You can find most of her work on Vimeo here: https://bit.ly/2My3Q4j So, please enjoy. If you have any questions or comments don’t hesitate to leave them. As always, if you care please share.

LEE CLOW In this episode, I speak with advertising legend, Lee Clow who, for 25 years, partnered with Steve Jobs on some of the most brilliant pieces of advertising the world has ever seen: 1984, The Crazy One’s, and Mac vs PC (to name a few). I go into some detail about his career at the beginning of the interview so I won’t list everything here. Suffice to say, he is in every hall of fame you can think of and then some. We sat in his home studio in Palos Verdes, California. His studio felt like a museum I could probably spend a lifetime in. Lee has three dogs, one of which had much to say throughout the interview. Lee’s wife, Eileen, of 50 years drops in for a quick hello. It was an honor to meet the woman Lee attributes most of his success to. It was not an easy interview for me, given that Lee has been interviewed four million times before and, well, it is Lee Clow. What I think you will find interesting in this interview is his memories of working with Steve Jobs and the “real story” behind the Think Different campaign. We also talk about the origin of the “Impossible is Nothing” line, which actually has two stories. We didn’t quite get to which one was the true one, but both are worth listening to. Lee also talks about the role of surfing in his work and creativity. Surfing is the mother of all extreme sports and the nature of the sport compels people to try to outdo each other. Sounds like how advertising should be. We also delve into his childhood and talk about the role his adoptive mother and first grade teacher played in his development as an graphic communicator. Without them, he probably would have been a plumber (so he says). While his mother encouraged his interest in art, it was his father who taught him the value of hard work and responsibility. Responsibility and resilience helped Lee reach the very top and stay there for fifty odd years. I hope you enjoy this episode. Please subscribe and share if you feel compelled to do so. Or not.

SCOTT ROSS Hi. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, I am in Santa Barbara with Scott Ross, best known as the founder of Digital Domain, the company that created the visual effects for such Oscar winning movies as Titanic, What Dreams May Come, and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button – amongst many others. Did I mention Lord of the Rings, iRobot, and Fight Club? His partner in crime, at the time, was none other than director James Cameron. Before starting Digital Domain, he was the CEO of George Lucas’ Industrial, Light and Magic which was responsible for the effects of Academy Award winning films Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Terminator 2 and the Abyss. The question is how does a poor white boy from the South Bronx end up at the center of a digital revolution when all he really wanted was to play the sax? Please join me as we retrace Scott’s incredible journey from the South Bronx to Santa Barbara to learn the answer to this question and more.

SCOTT ROSS Hi. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, I am in Santa Barbara with Scott Ross, best known as the founder of Digital Domain, the company that created the visual effects for such Oscar winning movies as Titanic, What Dreams May Come, and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button – amongst many others. Did I mention Lord of the Rings, iRobot, and Fight Club? His partner in crime, at the time, was none other than director James Cameron. Before starting Digital Domain, he was the CEO of George Lucas’ Industrial, Light and Magic which was responsible for the effects of Academy Award winning films Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Terminator 2 and the Abyss. The question is how does a poor white boy from the South Bronx end up at the center of a digital revolution when all he really wanted was to play the sax? Please join me as we retrace Scott’s incredible journey from the South Bronx to Santa Barbara to learn the answer to this question and more.

Bill GRUNDFEST Hi. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today I am in Beverly Hills with Bill Grundfest, comedian, writer, producer, and director. Bill is the co-founder of the famed Comedy Cellar in Greenwich Village, New York, which has headlined such legends as  Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld and the late Robin Williams. He is also credited with launching the careers of superstars of comedy Bill Maher AND Jon Stewart. Bill is also well known for his hit TV show, “Mad About You” which won four golden globe awards and 12 primetime Emmy awards. Let’s not forget CBS’ “That’s Life”, HBO’s “Mind of a Married Man”, Showtimes, “Pryor Offenses”, and Comedy Central’s, “Richard Pryor Special”. I think that’s it. There might be more. Check out his Wikipedia page for more details. I thought the interview went very well, but Bill might disagree. After all, he walked out on me three times. I guess I asked some pretty offensive questions. I didn’t think so, but I will let you decide. He walked out on me the first time when I brought up the topic of failure, which he had his share of early on in his career. He was kind enough to return and school me on the value of failure. We also talked about his experience in China and how he was able to navigate the cultural in the same way that he has for decades in New York and Hollywood, by being nice. So seemingly simple yet so immensely difficult. We also get into a topic that he was surprised to find himself talking about, the relationship between being Jewish and being creative. The insights he delivers are worth their weight in gold. Anyway, I certainly learned a great deal from Bill and laughed more than I generally do. I hope you do too.

Bill GRUNDFEST Hi. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today I am in Beverly Hills with Bill Grundfest, comedian, writer, producer, and director. Bill is the co-founder of the famed Comedy Cellar in Greenwich Village, New York, which has headlined such legends as  Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld and the late Robin Williams. He is also credited with launching the careers of superstars of comedy Bill Maher AND Jon Stewart. Bill is also well known for his hit TV show, “Mad About You” which won four golden globe awards and 12 primetime Emmy awards. Let’s not forget CBS’ “That’s Life”, HBO’s “Mind of a Married Man”, Showtimes, “Pryor Offenses”, and Comedy Central’s, “Richard Pryor Special”. I think that’s it. There might be more. Check out his Wikipedia page for more details. I thought the interview went very well, but Bill might disagree. After all, he walked out on me three times. I guess I asked some pretty offensive questions. I didn’t think so, but I will let you decide. He walked out on me the first time when I brought up the topic of failure, which he had his share of early on in his career. He was kind enough to return and school me on the value of failure. We also talked about his experience in China and how he was able to navigate the cultural in the same way that he has for decades in New York and Hollywood, by being nice. So seemingly simple yet so immensely difficult. We also get into a topic that he was surprised to find himself talking about, the relationship between being Jewish and being creative. The insights he delivers are worth their weight in gold. Anyway, I certainly learned a great deal from Bill and laughed more than I generally do. I hope you do too.

BRYCE WHITWAM Hi. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, I talk with Bryce Whitwam, newly minted Chief Executive Officer at MRM McCann, formerly Chief Executive Officer of Wunderman China. Both Wunderman and MRM are direct marketing agencies. Wunderman is believed to be the creator of modern-day direct marketing. I am sure others will dispute that characterization. Or not. For those familiar with the US market, Wunderman is credited with coming up with the 1800 toll free number and the magazine subscription card. Small stuff, big impact. Back to Bryce. In just six years, Bryce built up Wunderman from a 20 person agency to a 300 person powerhouse. How was he able to do this? We explore that and more in this unique segment. We change it up a little bit this week. Rather than one – some might say long - continuous podcast, we cut up the interview into five, let’s call them slices. In slice one Bryce takes us back to his days as a high school disc jockey in the States, and stresses the importance of acquiring time-honored skills you can fall back on if all else goes to hell. In slice two Bryce adopts the strategy of fight where you think you can win after realizing competition in the States was too intense and if he wanted to follow his passion he would need to find more fertile ground. Asia called. In slice three, Bryce leaves for Thailand, a place that pushed him out of his comfort zone and teaches him what it means to be a marketer. In the fourth and second to last slice, we chat about leadership and influence in China. For the South Dakotan native, leading is all about showing that you can do the work, not just get people to do it for you. To thrive, you need to learn the language. The days of the foreigner discount are over. In the final session Bryce talks about the changing market in China. Winning will rely more on marketing prowess than distribution. While entering the market is easier than it has ever been winning will be increasingly more difficult. He also sees a correction in the near future and a world where China will become a global leader in services, not just products. So please come and enjoy. And remember, If you like it, share it.

RONNIE WU Hi. Welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, we are at TBWA Shanghai – in the sprawling yet sparse office of the Chief Creative Officer – Ronnie Wu. This interview is a bit different from earlier interviews. It involves cheese and a bottle of decent wine. Plus, it is the first interview in series 2 where we record outside the studio. Finally, this interview is mostly in Chinese – that is, Ronnie answers my questions in Chinese. First, a little bit about TBWA. TBWA is the disruption agency, home for pirates, they say. It is most famous for the work they’ve done for Apple – they basically built the brand. Thanks Mr. Clow. TBWA is also well-known for creating the Absolut Vodka print campaigns – the longest running ad campaign in advertising history. Also, remember adidas’ “Impossible is nothing”? That was TBWA. Personally, one of my favorite taglines ever. Politics has a way of defiling greatness. Oh well. Ronnie sits at the helm of TBWA China. Prior to joining TBWA, he headed Young & Rubicam Beijing which became one of the most awarded agencies in the world at Cannes during his tenure. Y&R won their very first “China Creative Agency of the Year” as a result. He also created the world’s most awarded print campaign, named Penguin ‘Mic”.  Ronnie was one of the youngest ECDs in China, and one of the most awarded in the country with top accolades from Cannes, D&AD, LIA, New York Festival, CLIO, ADC, Spikes Asia, and AdFest. In our long and meandering conversation Ronnie and I get into the origins of his mission to inject a touch of perfection into his craft. In an industry operating on fast forward, where good enough is great, how is he able to indulge his obsessive-compulsive disorder? The key, he says with deep conviction, is responsibility, being and taking full responsibility for the work.

RONNIE WU Hi. Welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, we are at TBWA Shanghai – in the sprawling yet sparse office of the Chief Creative Officer – Ronnie Wu. This interview is a bit different from earlier interviews. It involves cheese and a bottle of decent wine. Plus, it is the first interview in series 2 where we record outside the studio. Finally, this interview is mostly in Chinese – that is, Ronnie answers my questions in Chinese. First, a little bit about TBWA. TBWA is the disruption agency, home for pirates, they say. It is most famous for the work they’ve done for Apple – they basically built the brand. Thanks Mr. Clow. TBWA is also well-known for creating the Absolut Vodka print campaigns – the longest running ad campaign in advertising history. Also, remember adidas’ “Impossible is nothing”? That was TBWA. Personally, one of my favorite taglines ever. Politics has a way of defiling greatness. Oh well. Ronnie sits at the helm of TBWA China. Prior to joining TBWA, he headed Young & Rubicam Beijing which became one of the most awarded agencies in the world at Cannes during his tenure. Y&R won their very first “China Creative Agency of the Year” as a result. He also created the world’s most awarded print campaign, named Penguin ‘Mic”.  Ronnie was one of the youngest ECDs in China, and one of the most awarded in the country with top accolades from Cannes, D&AD, LIA, New York Festival, CLIO, ADC, Spikes Asia, and AdFest. In our long and meandering conversation Ronnie and I get into the origins of his mission to inject a touch of perfection into his craft. In an industry operating on fast forward, where good enough is great, how is he able to indulge his obsessive-compulsive disorder? The key, he says with deep conviction, is responsibility, being and taking full responsibility for the work.  

TOMAZ MOK Hello Everyone. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today we speak with Tomaz Mok, the second of the four godfathers of advertising in Mainland China that we’ve had on the show. Tomaz’ advertising career spans more than 45 years. 35 of those years were spent at one agency, McCann Erickson, the same agency that figures prominently in the final season of Mad Men. I would say that McCann probably has one of the best tag lines ever in advertising, “Truth well told.” (almost quaint in our post-truth world.) During his reign at McCann, he helped companies like General Motors, Coca-Cola and Nestle become household names and won every award possible for his efforts. You’d think Tomaz would be retired by now, enjoying the spoils of a glorious career, but no. After retiring from McCann, he started his own agency, Match, a move he had never planned for but relishes all the same. In conversation with Tomaz, he reveals his secrets to a long and successful career in advertising. Making right decision from start Taking on a hobby Balancing material and spiritual He busts the myth that you have to be a dick to make it in the ad business – or at least provides an alternative pathway. We also go on a journey with him as he returns to his 65, 55, 45, and 35 year old self to give advice to - himself. To his 35 year old self he advised him to focus more on emerging technology. To his 45 year old self he advised himself to focus more on the value of money. So please join me on a journey through the spiritual life of Tomaz Mok, the Monk Amongst Madmen.

Hello Everyone. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today we speak with Tomaz Mok, the second of the four godfathers of advertising in Mainland China that we’ve had on the show. Tomaz’ advertising career spans more than 45 years. 35 of those years were spent at one agency, McCann Erickson, the same agency that figures prominently in the final season of Mad Men. I would say that McCann probably has one of the best tag lines ever in advertising, “Truth well told.” (almost quaint in our post-truth world.) During his reign at McCann, he helped companies like General Motors, Coca-Cola and Nestle become household names and won every award possible for his efforts. You’d think Tomaz would be retired by now, enjoying the spoils of a glorious career, but no. After retiring from McCann, he started his own agency, Match, a move he had never planned for but relishes all the same. In conversation with Tomaz, he reveals his secrets to a long and successful career in advertising. Making right decision from start Taking on a hobby Balancing material and spiritual He busts the myth that you have to be a dick to make it in the ad business – or at least provides an alternative pathway. We also go on a journey with him as he returns to his 65, 55, 45, and 35 year old self to give advice to - himself. To his 35 year old self he advised him to focus more on emerging technology. To his 45 year old self he advised himself to focus more on the value of money. So please join me on a journey through the spiritual life of Tomaz Mok, A Monk Amongst Madmen.

杨明洁 YANG DESIGN及羊舍YANG HOUSE创始人、福布斯中国最具影响力设计师、同济大学客座教授。 在浙大与中国美院完成七年学业后，获德国WK基金会全额奖学金赴德留学，完成德国工业设计硕士学位后，任职于慕尼黑西门子设计总部。囊获了包括德国红点、iF、日本G-mark、美国IDEA、亚洲最具影响力设计银奖及福布斯中国最具影响力设计师在内的上百项大奖。 2005年创办YANG DESIGN，迄今成为中国最具前瞻思维的设计顾问公司。2013年投资创办中国首家私人工业设计博物馆，2015年创办生活方式品牌“羊舍YANG HOUSE”。 融合了德意志逻辑思考与中国人文精神的设计理念，也使得杨明洁成为了包括波音、奥迪、博世、NATUZZI、百事可乐、Steelcase、三宅一生、Swatch等众多国际顶尖品牌的合作伙伴，从眼镜箱包到飞机内舱，从家居产品到智能硬件等多个领域均有高品质作品呈现。而多年来与绿色和平、壹基金、亚洲动物保护基金所合作的系列公益项目则体现了他作为设计师所承担的一份社会责任。 “设计能否改变社会？”是他一直在思考并付诸行动的一个议题！

SHEENA ZHENG Hello Everyone. And welcome to the Cao & Chao Show. A podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Today, we talk with Sheena Zheng, Chief Creative Officer at McCann Worldwide China. Prior to joining McCann, she was the Chair and Chief Creative Officer of Publicis China. She was with Publicis for an amazing19 years. She has been recognized as China’s top female advertising professional, Taiwan’s too, and China’s 4A Person of the Year. Under her leadership, her teams have won creative awards at every major award show - cannes, d&ad, and the one show to name few.  She’s worked with some of the biggest global clients from l’oreal, Citibank, P&G, Unilever, J&J and Coca-Cola amongst many others. In our interview we talk about… Sheena grew up in a commune of sorts in Taiwan. She says it shaped the way she things about teams. Sheena is one of the few female creative leaders in the advertising industry. She says being a bitch is not the secret to her success. Let’s go to the interview find out how she got here.

MAYAN LO Welcome to the Cao& Chao Show, a podcast where we talk to remarkable creators about how they got here. Mayan recently became the Chief Creative Officer of the newly formed Wunderman Thompson APAC. He has been with J. Walter Thompson, one of the finest agencies in the world and one of the top agencies in China, for 23 years, an astounding number considering how often people move around in this industry. When you walk into the JWT office one of the first things you notice is the sheer number of awards the office has won. Mayan won China’s first Clio as well as China’s first Grand Prix at Cannes. He was also the first Chinese person to head a jury at Cannes. Tom Doctoroff, former CEO of JWT once said of Mayan, “he is the teacher. His wisdom has inspired generations of communications people in China across more than twenty years. He has defined the creative voice of China. His understatement and his perceptiveness, not to mention his talent has been the fuel of JWT for two decades.” Mayan has gotten some of the most awarded ideas out of his teams. We talk about how he is able to do that. He doesn’t believe award shows are the most important measure of achievement these days.  Let’s go to the interview find out how he got here.

Jimmy Lam   Today we are joined by Jimmy Lam. He is the President of the Asia Pacific Advertising Festival, one of the founders of Adfest and the Longxi International Chinese Language Creative Awards. He dedicates a lot of his time reinvigorating the Longyin Review magazine.   Jimmy offers up his wisdom on climbing up the ladder as quickly as possible. You’ll learn that hard work is never enough.   Jimmy explains the mechanics of a good idea. You’ll probably need to break a few bad habits after you hear what he has to say. Come and listen now.   Let’s go to the interview and find out how he got here.

Robert Kuo He was born in Beijing, grew up in Taipei, and has made his mark in Los Angeles. Architectural Digest called him the King of Cloisonné, the Raja of Repousse, the Lord of Lacquer. Others have called him the Imperial craftsman of the 21st Century. His father was considered Taiwan’s Cloisonné master. His work is on permanent display at the Smithsonian and the Vatican.  Robert’s pieces sit in the Tokyo Grand Hyatt, Singapore Ritz-Carlton, and New York Four Seasons to name a few. Baker Furniture, McGuire Furniture and Gump’s in San Francisco also feature his work. Beyoncé, Jennifer Lopez and Will Smith are a few celebrities who have become fans. He’s also been called a bit of a Dr. Seuss for the whimsical themes he creates. We met in his factory – a magical place filled with colossal snails, animated penguins, and pears the size of phone booths.

Dr. Bechara Saab CEO and Chief Scientist of Mobio Interactive, a digital therapeutics and performance enhancement company.Before setting up Mobio, he was the Principal Investigator of Neuroscience at the Psychiatric Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland. After fifteen years in academia, he went off to study the effects of mindfulness meditation, resulting in the commercialization of two mindfulness meditation apps, Wildflowers Mindfulness and Am, spelled A. M. Bechara’s interest within the field of brain science include curiosity, learning, memory, mental illness, and of course, mindfulness. Click here to download the App: https://www.midigitaltherapeutics.com/am.html