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Described as a “Millennial trapped in a Baby Boomer body, a “hire authority,” and “certified prophet” of workforce trends. Ira Wolfe is the president of Success Performance Solutions. Ira is one of the world's top thought leaders and influencers, he’s author of six books, including his bestselling book Recruiting In The Age Of Googlization. This show is pumped full of hacks including:The different value from working on the business vs. in the businessHow to embrace the new VUCAAntifragile: When we make a mistake, we learn from it and we become stronger.The importance of not letting other’s opinions form your decisionsJoin our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services Find out more about Ira Wolfe below:Ira Wolfe Website - https://www.irawolfe.comSPS Website - https://www.successperformancesolutions.comIra on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/irawolfe/Ira on Twitter – https://twitter.com/HireAuthorityFull Transcript Below----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Our special guest on today's show is Ira Wolfe. He's an accomplished speaker, author, global thought leader and president of Success Performance Solutions. Before we get a chance to speak with Ira, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: Success from adversity is our focus for today. Thomas Edison was an American inventor and businessman who has been described as America's greatest inventor. He developed many devices in the field, such as electric power generation, mass communication, sound recording and motion pictures. Edison also demonstrated powers of leadership, which would rival any leader of any generation. I'm going to share a story today that just illustrates that. Even in the face of the most cruel adversity, Edison not only looked for the positive, but attempted to instil that attitude in his family and followers. And let's face it, we could all do with a little piece of that inspiration in us. In December, 1914, Thomas Edison's factory in West Orange, New Jersey was virtually destroyed by fire. Although the damage exceeded $2 million dollars, the buildings are only insured for $238,000 dollars because they were made of concrete and thought to be fireproof and much of Edison life work went up in smoke and flames that December night. At the height of the fire Edison 24-year-old son, Charles was searching frantically for his father. And when he finally found him, he found him calmly watching the fire with his face, glowing in the reflection and his white hair blowing in the wind. When Charles finally found his father Edison, who was 67 at the time and no longer a young man, everything was going up in flames. Charles was quoted, “when he saw me, he shouted Charles, where's your mother”. And when Charles told him, he didn't know, he said, you must find him, bring hay with an excited voice. She'll never see anything like this, as long as she lives, Charles was confused by his enthusiasm at watching his entire fortune burn. The next morning, Thomas Edison took his son Charles to the ruins of his empire and said, there is great value in this disaster my son, all our mistakes are now burned up. Thank God we can start anew. Just three weeks after the fire, Thomas Edison managed to deliver the first phonograph, which he called a phonograph record, which of course evolved into the gramophone, and the of course later the record player, Thomas Edison was able to see things definitely from most leaders in his day. He saw beyond the immediate disaster to find positives, and as leaders, the lesson here is that opportunity in adversity always is available, if we just look hard enough. So, thank you, Thomas Edison for a little bit of inspiration from over a hundred years ago. That’s been The Leadership Hacker News, if you have any stories, just like this one or others that will help us understand leadership with a different lens. Please get in touch our all fees. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Ira Wolfe is our special guest on today's show. He's the president of Success Performance Solutions. One of the world's top thought leaders and influencers, and also the author of six books, including his bestselling book Recruiting In The Age Of Googlization. Ira, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Ira Wolfe: Hey, thanks very much Steve. Really appreciate it and hope everybody's safe and well Steve Rush: Delighted you could join us today, and what I really love about having guests like you on our show is that you come with this enormous amount of experience, but it's not one of the traditional troden leadership paths that some folk would experience. You started out your career as a dentist and then pivoted to what you're doing now. Tell us a little bit about how that came about? Ira Wolfe: Steve, every time I hear somebody tell or frame that story, it sort of surprises me. Because I never looked at it in a way that I was making that dramatic change from dentistry to, the businesses evolve, business consultant or management consultant. Over time, I always looked at myself even as a dentist that I had a business and I just happened to be providing dental services. So, from early on when I set up the business it was about hiring the right team. It was about having a plan and a vision which certainly, you know, it changed over time. But having a plan and a vision, it was about marketing the practice. It was about messaging, it was about communication, was about customer service. So, every time I hear that and especially, someone abruptly left almost 25 years ago, I left dentistry, but after having a very successful practice, people said, well, what are you going to do? What do you know how to do? Are you going back to school? Is something wrong? And to me, it was just another chapter in my life. Certainly, we didn't have the internet when I started dentistry and, I don't have as many employees as I have now when I had a practice. But the reality is, my day-to-day operation of a business is exactly the same as it was when I ran my dental practice. And again, it was about leadership being part of a community. It was about helping other people, that's what I do. Steve Rush: Yeah, I remember that when we spoke last, you know, you had a really successful dental practice by the way, and you were getting more excited by driving the business and developing people. And you actually were about the dentistry at the end, is that right? Ira Wolfe: Oh, absolutely. We can go back. We were computerized in 1988 or 89. In fact we were one of the first 500 dental practices in the country, in the US at that time using the one software program that was dominate. So, there were multiple software programs, but it was pretty early on, but there weren't that many practices. There might've been a thousand practices in the country that actually were computerized, I had gone there. By early nineties we had those inter oral cameras where we were able to show people, you know, on a big screen, what was going on in their mouth. So, we didn't have to just describe it or try to look in a mirror, you know, a tiny little half inch mirror to be able to see that.  So, I was always trying to advance. I love doing that. For those that are familiar with the disc assessment, the ISC or behavioural assessment. Steve Rush: Sure. Ira Wolfe: Myers Briggs. I had been using that, again in the eighties because we had 15, 16 people on a team. I brought in an associate, who became my partner, who I eventually sold to, but he had a very, very different personality than I did. And it wasn't that his personality was wrong, mine was right. We had different personalities, but that meant the staff had to work with two different people, customers, patients. They came in and they had a different rapport with me. And I couldn't be insulted because somebody preferred to go to him or he couldn't be insulted because somebody chose me. So, we needed to understand how do we relate differently to different people. So, we use the disc model. That was one of the reasons that when I left practice, was how to teach people how to do that, how to get teams to collaborate and cooperate and understand that conflict isn't always bad. Differences of opinion can be good and rewarding. And there are different personalities. And it doesn't mean that somebody doesn't like you because they say something some way, that's just the way they say it. They have to learn to change that. And you have to learn how to listen differently. Steve Rush: So, having built this successful dental practice, was there a moment that you realize that now is the time to leave? And if so, how did that come about? Ira Wolfe: Yeah, that's an interesting question. And now that I've had 25 years to reflect on that, I should have done it a lot sooner. From very early on, even in the first year of my practice, although I loved getting up in the morning, I spent a lot of hours planning. I was always working on the business. If for any of your listeners, and I'm sure you're familiar with the E-Myth by Michael Gerber. It was certainly a huge book when it came out 20, some years ago, but the E-Myth was about leaders and business people shouldn't work in their business. They should work on their business. So, I was always working on the business and I love doing that. Even as early as my first and second year of practice, I realized at one point I would probably consult. My vision was to consult other dentists and help them grow a successful business. I quickly realized at the end of my dental career, and when I started the business, I really didn't want to limit myself to that. And two is, it wasn't necessarily technologically and technically. It was a very progressive industry, but the people that are in the industry, weren't so progressive, they sort of liked the status quo. They loved working in the business, not on the business. So, it was very difficult to coach and mentor and train many of the dentists. And again, I'm going back 25 years differently because they didn't see the need to do that. As long as they had a shingle outside and they can turn the lights on and off, they were in business, a lot has changed, but it's still a very independent profession. Many dentists are still solo. Again, I'm speaking mostly from the US but you know, even worldwide.So again, I decided I didn't want to limit that, but I always had this vision of being in, you know, having another business or having my dental practice and being in business. But I pretty much burnt myself out. When I left the practice, I was actually working less than 20 hours a week and playing six rounds of golf. And I wasn't enjoying myself. I mean, financially, and from looking on the outside in, I had a great life. Got a nice home. I had a home near the ocean as well, had a second home there. I was playing lots of golf. I was a leader in the community. I just wasn't having a good time. I didn't enjoy it. I wrote in one of my books, how I dreaded Sunday, because it was only 24 hours from Monday, and that's not a good way to live. Steve Rush: Definitely not. And it's also quite interesting when you start thinking of the whole enjoyment philosophy. It's incredibly important for our wellbeing, as well as our mental health to really enjoy the work that we do. Yet people still get stuck in just doing things and going through the monotony of work. What would you think causes that? Ira Wolfe: We rationalized. When I look back is, I rationalize that this is just the way it is. We accepted that, I tended a ton of programs. Even before TED Talks, I was listening to the people, motivational speakers, and I'm going to botch this badly, but there's the saying that if you enjoy what you do, you never worked a day in your life. I can't remember who said that, but you get the gist of it. Steve Rush: Definitely, yeah. Ira Wolfe: I really enjoy what I do. And I did because I was always working on the business. What I didn't like doing was I didn't like to doing the dentistry, you know, in my TED Talks. I said I loved everything about dentistry, but dentistry. I finally realized that I wasn't very happy.And the less I did, the more diversions I had, the more distractions I had but I couldn't take it down to zero time. You know, I had to at least show up at least for a few hours, but the plan I put in place was a dream plan for someone else. I built a dental practice that was a dream, which was exemplary. It's the example that they had, that how do you make a high six figure income while working less than 20 hours a week? Again, I worked more than that, but I worked on the business for the rest of it. But the 20 hours were patient care. Not that I didn't like the patients, I just didn't like the procedures. I didn't like the repetition. I love trying new things, but I wanted to try them once. When I got good at that, I wanted to move on, but the patients still needed their teeth cleaned and filled and you know, whatever else that needed to be done, I just got bored with it. But I rationalized going back to your original question. People rationalize, they just accept things as they are. And they look around and find other people that go, you know, life can't always be grand and work is hard. And, you know, you get the stories that somebody, you know, your father, your grandfather, you know, went to the coal mines and you think it was easy for them. So, we start a rationalize that, hey, that's just the way life is. Steve Rush: Sure. Ira Wolfe: And you don't want to look at a failure. You don't want to be a quitter. You don't want to look weak. So, we got to get over that, and I did, I certainly did. Steve Rush: You more than just got over it. You've completely made a whole new career for yourself. You're now one of the world's top thought leaders. You're a blogger, you've written six books. So where do you get your self-drive, yourself energy, the passion, where does that come from? Ira Wolfe: Oh, wow. I will say some of it comes from, it's got to be hereditary or environmental, you know, it's the old nature nurture argument. My mother is 97 and she lives alone. She she's becoming less independent, but, you know, the pandemic certainly restricted her travel and her activities, but she's incredibly active. And, you know, she's always interested in learning. And I guess that's part of my DNA was always learning, always interested in what other people were doing, always interested in how things are changing. So, I think that's the drive. I, you know, I'm certainly an older baby boomer. Most people don't recognize that, you know, and now using just using audio, you can't see me, but when people hear me, they don't associate that with my age or my outlook with my age, because most of the people that know, you know, I don't even like hanging around with my peers because my peers are talking about retirement, talking about going back to the way it used to be. Especially now with the pandemic, we can't get back the way it was. Not very progressive, not very future looking or future seeking. And I act like I have another a hundred years to live. Some of the people that inspire me the most are people in their twenties and maybe thirties. And they've started multiple businesses, they have multiple businesses. They're looking to transform the world to be better people to leave the world a better place than it is now, which was the boomers, you know, in the seventies, when I grew up, that was the boomers. We’re going to leave the place a better place than it was before. And we didn’t it definitely did not. And so, again, I'm hoping that I can fix a little bit of that, but I'm only one person. Steve Rush: In fact, you have been described, haven't you? As a millennial trapped in a baby boomers’ body? Ira Wolfe: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And, again, I got that because somebody coined that. I've walked into a meeting and I introduced myself and they looked stunned. It was like, oh did I say something wrong? And they said, no, we were just expecting, you know, we've never, you know, I saw your picture and you look younger. I just never expected somebody, you know, older to be walking in with the attitude and the mindset and the tone that you had. So, they said, you're like a millennial trapped in a baby boomer body. And I go, I like that. I'm going to keep that if you don't mind, Steve Rush: But it's a perfect example right. Of how our mindsets are good. And I've studied for a number of years, the different ways that different generations have behave. And whilst there are certain similarities, the one thing that is common, where you see people break out of these generational labels is down to mindset, their thinking in their behaviours, and you're a perfect example of that. If there were people listening to this who feel more associated to their natural generalizations of this is my generation, I'm an X or Y a millennial or a baby boomer. Is there anything that you would say to them that would help them get out of that? Ira Wolfe: One of my books before “Recruiting In The Age Of Googlization” which was supposed to be a sequel to “Geeks Geezers and Googlization”. So, I wrote Geek Geezers Googlization in about 2007, 2008, it was published I think in 2008. And it was about the four generations. At that time, it was the veterans, which was anybody older than 1945, baby boomers, gen X which was born between 1965 and 1980, and then millennials. And the millennials were really coming into the workforce and everybody was focused on the millennials. So, I wrote a book about the four generations, but also looking at technology that the technologies that existed in the backdrop also shaped our lives. And, you know, at the time, I mean, in you know, if we go back two decades now, but in around, let's say 2005, 2006 the economy was booming. Internet was starting to come into its own. And the millennials were entering the workforce. So, everybody blamed everything that went wrong on the millennials. They blame the recession, they blame the attitudes that millennials weren't hard workers, and they weren't educated. And so, I wrote the book and I found myself being a little bit like everybody else sort of condemning the millennials, but I put it in the context of Googlization. Googlization is just a term that I came up with. That meant the convergence of the wired, the tired in technology. Now I've refined that a little bit. Googlization is the convergence of business people and technology, and we can't do one well without the other. So, when we look at the generations, I think the wired and the tired is a better definition than talking about millennials and baby boomers like myself. I mean, again, an older baby boomer, I am completely wired. You know, I could not function without technology. And I don't know if I want to, because you know, now, especially with the pandemic. Even my doctors have adapted to Telehealth, why do I have to travel an hour for an appointment? Sitting in the reception room. Take another hour out of my day to have a 10-minute appointment where they say, how are things going? Why can't I do that by Telehealth? Steve Rush: Exactly. Ira Wolfe: Look at the vaccine. Well, you're in the UK, the vaccines came out just recently. They're on their way in the US. It is remarkable how quickly we were able to do that. I don't know, I want to live in a world without technology. Yet there are people that just despise it. That it's bad, it's pushing people out of jobs. No, we're just evolving. So, I think, you know, I think that the label of generations, oh, you're a millennial. You must be good with technology. Oh, you're a baby boomer. You must be old and ready for retirement. I think the labels are bad. The mindsets are critical. Steve Rush: Definitely, definitely so. Now folk who are going through change would recognize that back in the nineties, the US military came up with the philosophy of VUCA, which for those that are not familiar with it, that's the whole volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous world, much of the work that you're involved with now, Ira is helping people through that change, but you've kind of reframed the VUCA to a different acronym. Tell us a little bit about what you've done. Ira Wolfe: Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah VUCA, which stands volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous again I did not come up with that, US military did. After the Berlin wall came down and they recognize that future Wars will not be with nation States, such as they were with world war one, world war two. And every war prior to that, that many of our enemies would be using cyber warfare. We would be terrorism which can’t be cyber war, certainly cyber warfare as well, but other forms of terrorism. So, we wouldn't be fighting countries. We would be fighting these got a nine the scrip enemy, and they needed a different strategy and they recognized our world would be volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous, which I can't think of a better acronym than VUCA to describe 2020, but it's certainly there. The challenge is that it's not a one-time event. It is the environment which we live in, and it becomes more uncertain, more complex, more ambiguous with time, but people aren't comfortable with that. We used to live in a linear world. Steve Rush: Yeah right. Ira Wolfe: And now everybody's familiar with the term exponential, and they could look at a graph and they can say, oh, that's an exponential curve because that's the world we live in. We live in this world that we're always sort of on the uptick, on the hockey stick up swing, that the world is just moving very, very fast. So, the question is, is how do we help people? And this is what I've been, especially working on over the last year. I've been working on for the last many years, but this year it's sort of honed in, especially because of the pandemic. And it was, how do we help people gain the confidence and the courage? How do they have a more hopeful, positive attitude toward the future? And not just change itself, but changing for the better. Taking advantage, another way I phrased that, I read somewhere else that I don't remember where I read it, but I wanted to give them credit. Was how do you seize opportunity in the right way? And there's a lot of people that just don't recognize that there's a tremendous amount of opportunity that this pandemic has created. And again, it was a convergence of people, technology and business that has done that. So, the new VUCA that came up, we still need a vision. We still need a purpose, whatever that might be. It could be something as simple as wanting to take care of your family, or it could be saving the world. You know, making sure everybody has self-care or clean water or everybody, or we eliminate literacy, but everybody has a vision, a plan for their life. We then need to get a better appreciation, a better understanding for the environment we live in. And even this conversation of helping people understand what VUCA is and the world we live in. And it doesn't mean they're bad, but people need to change their behaviours. So, vision and understanding still is, you know, is the beginning of the VUCA, but the C is really having the courage, having the confidence to move forward. We need to help people become more comfortable with uncertainty and they have to have the courage. And in order to do that, you're probably familiar Steve with it, but some of the readers may not. There's a concept called fixed and growth mindset. It was the developed by Carol Dweck, D-W-E-C-K. You can look it up. She's got some books, there's a million articles written on it, but what fixed mindset is something that I overcame and, you know, I was a good student, I did well. But then at some point you stop taking chances because you don't want to take a course that you get a B or a C in, because that may make you look stupid. Steve Rush: Oh, sure. Ira Wolfe: People think you get an A, so if you get a C it's because you didn't try hard enough, or, hey, maybe you're not that smart. So, we go through life. Our parents, our teachers, our businesses, program people you have to always be perfect. You always have to get that A and when you look around and what Carol Dweck study showed is that many valedictorians, many of the top of the class, weren't the most successful people in later years. Some other people were just average students who were willing to take chances, willing to make mistakes and then learn from those mistakes. So, the growth mindset is giving yourself permission to learn permission to make a mistake. And that was something that, you know, I had a reputation to guard. I would always deem to be the smartest students. So, you know, what if I take a class or what if I try something and I fail at it, or it takes me two or three times to succeed. I don't want to do that. People need to overcome that, especially now. There is no other option. You have to have a growth mindset. You need to do become a little bit more adept at, you know, we talk about critical thinking. What does that mean? At least in the US I use the example of you turn on CNN or MSNBC and Fox News, you turn on two opposite points of view, and it's not your decision to decide which one is right. Find out why both might be right and find out why both might be wrong. You know, what is it? Is that they had in common? People often say this, we often have more similarities than differences. And if you listen intently to the news, coming from two different points of view, much of it is the same. It's just the interpretation that's different. And how do we make sense of two opposite points of view? So, you know, how do we develop the courage and the confidence to move forward? We need to give to permission to ourselves to make mistakes and learn from them. And then the final A, we need to become adaptable. That's what I've been working on over the year. Adaptability, I work another group. Tt wasn't me who developed it but through pretty extensive study and science using an adaptability quotient to find out where people, you know, what's their grit? What's their courage? How do you help people improve that courage to keep moving forward? We talk about resilience. It's the ability to bounce back, but we don't want to bounce back to the way we were. You know, some people may be thinking they want to go back to 2019 or go back to 2010 or I hear a lot of my peers, you know, talk about why don't we go back to the simpler days and the simpler days, weren't so good. Especially if you were people of colour. They weren't so good if you were in certain minorities. They weren't so good because we had two world Wars and we had Vietnam and things weren't always so good in the past. We only want to remember the positive thing. So, we need to learn grit and resilience and mental flexibility and growth mindset. And we need to unlearn. The other part of adaptability is unlearning. It's sort of like, defragging your hard drive. I just did that the other day because I was getting a warning. You were running out of space and I go, that can't be, I've got a terabyte. And the challenge is I keep downloading things. I've got videos, I produce a lot of videos. I have images, I've got articles I want to read. You got a terabyte of space which is our brain. And we just save everything, thinking that we're going to need it someday, and eventually you got to clean it out. And that's what unlearning is, unlearning is not forgetting, you know doing a brain dump and go boy, everything I learned in college and 30 years of experience is useless. It's reorganizing it, getting rid of what's obsolete or archiving what's obsolete and making room to learn something new. When we talk about the solution for VUCA, you know, the modern vision is vision, understanding, having courage and confidence and adaptability. But the way to get there is to develop our grit, resilience, mental flexibility, mindset, and unlearn, and the good thing about those are skills, those are abilities, and we can teach people how to do that. Steve Rush: Straight out of the bat. I love that reframe by the way, the irony here of course, is a lot of what you've talked about around the learning and the unlearning. That's habitual, isn't it? So, for people, who've got these strong foundations, it's going to take practice and habit to unlearn some of that stuff too. Ira Wolfe: I said this tenaciously. And I didn't even realize I said it. It might've been an accident, but I was listening to a podcast that I was on the other day. And I said, there is no four-year degree, for unlearning. Steve Rush: That’s true, yeah. Ira Wolfe: And maybe there should be, maybe we need to teach people how to unlearn. Steve Rush: I think you are right. I think it was Yoda who famously said, do you have to unlearn what you have learned? Right. And it’s kind of made it kind of way into the forefront of our minds, but it is a skill to unlearn stuff, as much as it is to learn. It's breaking down those habits.Ira Wolfe: We need to learn what we need to unlearn first of all. So, you know, we need to learn to unlearn, but we also need to unlearn. So, the reality is that there are things that just don't make sense anymore. It was Einstein, if we keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result, that's the definition of insanity. Yet, we do that. We say, no, no, no, we're smart. We got room in our brain. We can learn one more thing. So, we learned something that a better way to do it, but it conflicts with the way we used to do it. And now we have this decision to make. Which choice? Do I do A or B? And the fact is, A should have just been archived, then go, good memory. Let's close the chapter on that. It worked for a while. We just need to stop doing that. It's sort of like the broken toaster that the one side works, but the other doesn't. Steve Rush: I love that analogy. Ira Wolfe: So yeah, it's still works, but it takes us twice as long to get it. And by the time we get the first piece of toast out, and the second one in, the first piece of toast is cold and it's hard. So, we need to learn how to become more efficient, to do things better. And that's really what my goal is. And that's why I'm excited because there are millions of people and the estimates, world economic forum, and a few other organizations, you know, they're talking about 375 million people being left behind. Steve Rush: Wow. Ira Wolfe: Because of the pace of change and some of that's due to economics, some of it's due to education, some of it's due to the job skills they have, oftentimes it's a combination of both. But there's 375 million people that are in danger of being left behind, in addition to all the people that are already in poverty or already out of jobs and they need re-skilling. There's a lot of work to do. And that's you know, that's what excitement, I mean, that's why, as I said, you know, in the late sixties, I'm acting like a millennial trapped in a baby boomer body. I'm thinking I can conquer the world. My body doesn't always want to cooperate on that, but my mind is still going pretty strong. Steve Rush: And the good news is, we're not going to run out of things to do. There's always going to be a bunch of people who need help and assistance through that. Ira Wolfe: Yeah, that's the great news. That's the opportunity that people miss. This was an interesting statistic and I just found this yesterday. In the US, now I can't speak beyond that, but in the US for 2020, this crazy pandemic year, there have been 12% more businesses opened than in the prior year than in 2019, which was a boom year. 2020 has seen 12% increase of new businesses classified under what they call high propensity businesses. Those aren't just people working at home, selling Etsy, or you know, making a living on social media is bad. But those are businesses that created a company and hired staff, 12% increase. We don't read that in the media. Steve Rush: No. Ira Wolfe: We read about all the people who are unemployed and all the business that went bankrupt. Steve Rush: That’s our unconscious mind also, isn't it? Looking for news stories that are more catastrophizing the situation than there is to look for things that are more positive. That's just the way that the news channels and media work, I guess. Ira Wolfe: Absolutely, but regardless there is tremendous opportunity out there. And the good news about living on an exponential curve is there will always be new opportunity because we're always going to be learning and unlearning, and learning and unlearning. There is always going to be something new to be able to do. So, if people can become more comfortable living in an age of uncertainty, they have the courage and the confidence to go forward and give themselves permission to make mistakes. Again, the future looks bright Steve Rush: And on the note of learning and unlearning, I'm now going to hack into your leadership mind. So, this part of the show is where we get to really get some instantaneous quick hints and hacks if you like from our guests. So, Ira if our listeners will be listening to this, what would be your top three leadership hacks that you would share with them? Ira Wolfe: We've already mentioned probably all of them, but the first one would be growth mindset. Again, just read an article, just understand that. Just figure out, what haven't you tried? What have you resisted? Because you didn't think you were smart enough. You didn't have the money. It wasn't the right time. And yet the real reason was, I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to be a failure. So, I think number one is having a growth mindset. Number two is learning to adapt and that's part of it. The growth mindset part of it. But the learning to adapt is bigger than that. We mentioned resilience, the ability to bounce back, you don't want to bounce back. You want to bounce forward. There is a concept out there. And again, I'll throw this term out there, relatively new in my vocabulary called antifragility. And it is by not allowing ourselves to make mistakes. By business this has become popular. Six Sigma lean manufacturing, total quality management, the zero defects. We need to be efficient and not make a single mistake. That has squeezed out, it has out grown, it has hurt people, it has hurt companies and people thinking about innovation. So again, learning to adapt, learning to become not just resilient, but antifragile. Antifragile means we get stronger. When we make a mistake, we learn from it and we become stronger. So, Antifragility is probably the second one. And the third is, and this is just the leadership. We always need to help other people. And again, my focus is helping other people adapt, but you may have a different one. But find out, we live in a big world. A lot of people need help, we could be a good citizen in the global community we live in. So, you know, find something you're passionate about and help others. Steve Rush: Great lessons. Thank you for sharing those. The next part of this show, we call Hack to Attack. So, this is a situation or a time in your work or your life where it hasn't panned out. As you were planning, maybe it hasn't gone well at all, but as a result of the experience we've learned from it, and we now use it as a force of good, what would be your Hack to Attack? Ira Wolfe: Sometimes you just need to give, again give yourself permission. I stuck way through long in my dental career, because I didn't want to look like it was giving up. I should have gotten out five or ten years earlier and giving my myself permission to be able to do that or plan it differently. What I did was I hung in there as long as I could, and then just got burnt out. And six months later I was gone and it took me a few years to recover because I thought I would be continuing to do that for so long. And overnight almost like the pandemic within six months, I just got out and started a new business, but it was without a plan. I didn't have a vision of what it was going to be. And fortunately, I had a unique position. Like people, some people in Corporate America do, they had a severance plan. I had a buyout, I mean, I had equity in my business, so I sold it. So, I think people have to plan ahead a little bit. What's the next chapter in your life? There are no more 30- or 40-year careers. Steve Rush: Yeah. Ira Wolfe: So just give your permission and think ahead what you want to do.Steve Rush: I liked the reframe of the next chapter. It almost gives you that unconscious permission to say, that's the natural thing to do. Ira Wolfe: Yeah, my next chapter is not my, you know, I mean, they always say that my peers are looking at retirement. You know, why don't you retire and enjoy life? And I go because I'm having a ball. And I look around at people who have entered into their final chapter or the winter of their lives, and I'm not ready to do that. And there's a lot of people, there are some entrepreneurs in their eighties and nineties. They're amazing, amazing people. And hopefully that'll be me. Steve Rush: Good for you too. The last thing that we want to do is do a bit of time travel now and give you the opportunity to bump back into Ira when he's 21, and you got a chance now to give him some advice, what do you think you'll say? Ira Wolfe: Wow, at 21. I know what my wife would say. I shared with you earlier. We were high school sweethearts. And basically, we broke up in high school. It was always a regret that we had that we sort of lived separate adult lives. If there's something you want and you're passionate about, go for it. Don't let other people's opinions, make your decisions, listen to them. I'm not saying ignore people who have a difference of opinion, except them. But it's your life, and if I look back to, I was 21, I actually thought of changing my career to business. And I was persuaded out of that. I eventually got back into it obviously, and I can't say dentistry was a waste in all those 20 years between 21 and 45 were a waste. You know, again, I learned some things, but I probably could have had a different life and a different opportunity, who knows. I mean, you can't second guess that, but if I went back to 21, I would just say, if you have a vision, go for it. Steve Rush: Awesome, so before we kind of close off today, if our listeners wanted to get to know a little bit more about the work that you're doing, Ira, you talked about the fact that you've developed this adaptability quotion and some assessments that come with that, where's the best place we can send them? Ira Wolfe: The number one place to me would be if you're on LinkedIn, go to LinkedIn. I share a lot of information on there. Some of it's my own, some of its other people. I also contribute to a lot of other people's work as well. So, that's one place, but my website, my company website is successperformancesolutions.com. You can learn a lot about what I do in the business there. I have in a very active blog, several times a week. There's a new post. I also have my own podcast, Geeks Geezer And Googlization Podcast. Everything gets posted on there as well. So, successperformancesolutions.com is one place. You can also go to Ira Wolfe that's I-R-A W-O-L-F-E.com. And you can see some of my other personal work that's up there. Steve Rush: We will make sure all of those links Ira are in our show notes and on our website. So, folks can literally just click in and follow you from there. Ira Wolfe: Well, I appreciate that very much. And I I'm very open to connecting. I've also got an active YouTube channel, which is youtube.com, IraWolfe/IraWolfe. So many different ways. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. They said the messages 2021 even by the economist’s points of view, it's going to be a very positive year, a year of growth, a lot of opportunity out there. We need to bounce forward and hopefully some of the advice we gave today will help everyone. Thanks very much Steve, appreciate it Steve Rush: Without a shadow of a doubt Ira. And thank you on behalf of our listeners, joining us on The Leadership Hacker Podcast today. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handle there @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.

Shawn Johal is a scale up expert, entrepreneur, business growth coach, author, and leadership speaker. Hack into the key leadership and personal success habits with Shawn on this show including:Scaling up mentality is a mindsetThe four laws for “The Happy Leader”Habits at the start and the end of the dayUnlocking the value of “community”Plus load more habits to hack!Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Shawn Johal below:Shawn Johal Website – https://www.shawnjohal.comElevation Website - https://elevationcoach.caShawn on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnjohal/Shawn on Twitter – https://twitter.com/ShawnjohalShawn on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/shawnjohalcoach/ Full Transcript Below----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you.Shawn Johal is a special guest on today's show. He's an entrepreneur, business growth coach, author, and leadership speaker on a mission to help you find the keys to a happy and successful life. But before we get a chance to speak with Sean, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker NewsSteve Rush: In the news today, we explore the theory of gratitude. Now the pandemic has made us wary, and while it might be cathartic to make a list of all that we've lost, all that we've tried and all that we want to leave behind. Expressing gratitude is actually a better idea. And it's a powerful, positive force. Far from a fluffy or frivolous concept. It has real impact on physical health, emotional wellbeing, motivation, engagement, and performance. So, here's why gratitude is good and how to bring more of it into your day. Most of us are impatient with the pandemic and 2021 has arrived and the pandemic is still here. We're thrilled to usher in a new year, but we're going to need to wait a little bit longer to get life back to something closer to what it was before. The good news is that gratitude itself can actually reduce impatience and a study published in the Psychological Science found that when people focused on being thankful, they were more likely to able to demonstrate patients. In addition, the study published in The Review of Communication found that gratitude has a positive impact on our mental health and emotional state. Optimism, as an example, as well as physical health, it also predicts behaviours such as helping others and exercising. All of this means that gratitude may just be what we need at the moment while we're either hanging on to what comes next or we're attracting towards the light at the end of the tunnel. Regular listeners who have listened to episode 18 with Nic Marks, Hacking Happiness. We've also found that gratitude is the root of all happiness. It tends to focus on what you have and replace a sense of what you might be lacking. According to some philosophers, you can't feel both grateful and unhappy. So, when your mind focuses on all, you're thankful for, you’re more likely to feel joy. In addition, when you're more grateful, you tend to focus on being more present, appreciating them now, and this of course can reduce to a sense of yearning and anxiety about the future. Philosophers have also suggested that it's a gateway emotion and it's suggested as the greatest virtue because it tends to lead to so many others. For example, an appreciation of someone can grow into love, gratitude for what you have can lead to greater satisfaction over you, loving your work and can lead to improve performance. So, here's my five top tips and how you can build and cultivate gratitude. Number one, begin and end with intention. Start each day by thinking about all you appreciate and expect from the day. And as you go to bed at night, think and consider all you're grateful for. Number two, give continuous attention. Throughout each day, find those small things that you can be thankful and grateful for. Perhaps you've made yourself a great cup of coffee, or you've had a really nice conversation and avoid taking those things for granted, make everything count. Number three, be expensive. Ensure you're focusing on being grateful and not just grateful for things, but for people and the environment and conditions around you. Perhaps you particularly appreciate the headphones that you might be wearing to listen to this or the ability to walk, see, the senses that we take for granted around you. Number 4, write it down. Research at Kent State University found that when you write down the elements that you're grateful for, that simple act can foster the happiness and wellbeing in itself. And this is probably true, because it causes us to pause, focus, reflect, and reinforce our positive experiences. And number five, express yourself. Gratitude is both an individual and a team sport. So, when you share what you're grateful for in a team environment, it holds even more power. Thanking a co-worker in a team meeting or providing positive feedback to colleagues during the project as an example. So, when gratitude is expressed and shared, it helps both you and the group. And let's just remember gratitude is good, it has plenty of positive effects. It could be what you, your family and your team need just to stay present, be attentive through the next stretch of this pandemic marathon that we're all experiencing, so here's a challenge. Head over to our social media and let us know what you're grateful for today. So that has been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, stories, or information, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Shawn Johal. Shawn an entrepreneur, a business growth coach, a leadership speaker and author of The Happy Leader Guide. Shawn, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Shawn Johal: Thank you so much Steve. Very excited to be here today. Steve Rush: Me too. We've had an opportunity to get to know each other over a couple of conversations, and I'm incredibly excited about sharing some of those conversations with our wider listeners, but before we do that, perhaps you'd give them a little bit of a backstory as to how you arrived to doing what you are doing? Shawn Johal: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Excited to talk about it. Basically, on my end, I immigrated from England over to Canada when I was a much, much younger. I bring it up because I think it's important to put it into context. And I grew up with a family who was very much believing in loyalty, staying at the same company for many, many years. My father worked for Rolls-Royce, England, and he transferred to Rolls-Royce Canada. My mother worked for Nortel before the big crash. And I remember my parents always telling me when I was growing up, that it would be very important for me to find the very stable job, something that I can stay at for, you know, 25, 30, 35 years. And I even remember my dad showing me his gold watch when he had done 30 years of service at Rolls-Royce. Saying that, you know, one day son, you may have the opportunity to have, you know, get the same type of watch as I have if you stay at the same company forever. And so, I kind of grew up with the mentality that I needed to find a stable job and work in the corporate world and not necessarily adventure in through entrepreneurship. So that was my mentality growing up, you know, trying to find something a little more stable. And then I met my wife, my future wife, we're married to now and her family were very, very entrepreneurial. And they started teaching me a lot about business. You know, being a business owner, understanding how to launch a business, how to own a business. And that was really where things took off for me. And I started realizing there was this whole other world out there. And so basically, after leaving the corporate world, I was working at Rubbermaid. I'm sure that a lot of listeners know about Rubbermaid, pretty large global company, $8 billion dollars. I was a district manager there. I was invited to join the family business and it was and led lighting business. My father-in-law had taken it public and it was fast growing, very fast growing, mergers and acquisitions. And so, I came in there as a sales manager and not part of ownership, but really having more of an entrepreneurial feel to it. Unfortunately, what happened was that during the 2006, 2007 recession, my father-in-law bought a company that probably wasn't the perfect fit for the business. The recession hit, which was terrible for the business and for the family. Within a year, our business that I've grown to 50 million in revenue, came from a crashing down. It was a very, very tough time for the family. Steve Rush: Wow. Shawn Johal: But the good thing was that during, you know, in every big challenge there's opportunities and my brother-in-law and I, at that point had a chance to buy back three of the different divisions. We were able to relaunch this led lighting business in our own way, and we've been growing ever since. So that was in 2009 and the businesses are continuing to go strong today in 2020. Steve Rush: It's through that kind of scaling up mentality that you've really started to deploy all of your learning. But now also share that as an entrepreneurial and business growth coach with other people, right? Shawn Johal: Exactly. In 2013, we hit a really bad wall as a business, so many things were going wrong Steve, I can't even tell you. We had no processes. We had the wrong people in the wrong seats. We had absolutely no strategy, no product development. And it really became ethically clear to me one day when we were sitting in our office and we had two customer service people who were working at a desk, but we didn't have enough money to afford a receptionist. And basically, they would look at each other when the phone would ring and neither one wanted to answer it because they were both really disgruntled employees and not, you know, at the right seats. And so, phones would ring. I knew they were customers and the phone would ring 10, 12 times, and neither person was willing to answer it. And that's when my business partner and I looked at each other and said, you know what? We have a really big culture problem in this business. At the same time, our biggest competitor launched a product line. They basically took our catalogue, stole all 150 products that we had in the catalogue and priced them at a dollar less in the market using the same suppliers as we use. And these were people that were part of the previous business. So, it was probably the worst backstabbing feeling I could ever have imagined in my life. These people are like brothers to me. Steve Rush: I bet. Shawn Johal: Yeah, and that was when we decided to take on scaling up. And we had an opportunity to read the Rockefeller Habits. In those days the scaling of book hadn't come out yet. And we found a coach and then we implemented the methodology successfully in our own business. Steve Rush: And it continues to grow to this day, and as part of that Shawn. One of the things I've known about you for a while and come to really respect is the discipline, rigor and habits that you apply in order to make your life successful. And I wanted to get into a couple of those. So, in terms of scaling up. There are kind of four pillars to that, aren't there? That’s strategy people, execution and cash. Maybe just tell us a little bit about how that plays out in your business today and how you coach others? Shawn Johal: Absolutely. What we noticed is that those four pillars really represent every business. The four key things every business owner should be really paying attention to. When we go into businesses, as much as my business, as any other business, we'd like to do a diagnostic where we go in there and really understand, okay, what's going well and what's not going well, you know, do you have a long-term goal that's nonfinancial? Do you have the right execution in class with being methodologies and processes? You know, how's your cash flow? Do you have good liquidity and everything that you're doing? Really those are the types of things that we go in and we analyse right from the beginning. And most importantly, do you have the right people in the right seats? And that's something that becomes incredibly clear very easily. So, once we get in there, we do that diagnostic. It's really easy for us to understand where the business is strong and where the business has certain weaknesses. And usually, we'll start off with a couple of strategic days to really build the vision of the business. You know, we'll go with that BHAG from Jim Collins, the big, hairy, audacious goal. We'll build that really cool vision long-term then get into three-year capacities, one-year priorities and the 90-day plan, really helping the business focus on execution the right way. And we'll start fixing things little by little, you know, we can't take it all in one big bite. We've been doing scaling up for seven years in our business, and we're still going strong. I've never seen a business not succeed by doing scaling up. The only times it doesn't work is when a business owner is either too stubborn to let other people share and have their own ideas or the business owner doesn't have the discipline required to implement the methodology. So those are the only two times where it doesn't really work. Steve Rush: And of course, scaling up will never stop if you have the right mentality and the right disciplines and right approach. Shawn Johal: Exactly, you can just keep going and going. Now, obviously it really depends on what you're looking for. I think some entrepreneurs get a little afraid when they see scaling up. Everybody wants to grow, but I don't believe in growth for the sake of growth. I think you need to have what I like to call profitable growth. I really believe in profitable growth since we've been doing scaling up in 2013, we've never had a month in the red. We've never once in those seven years. Steve Rush: Wow, that’s great. Shawn Johal: For us, that's what's most important. But even though we're growing at a really great pace, you know, anywhere between 10, 15, 20% a year, depending on the year. We're very careful to make sure that bottom line is always staying where it needs to be. Steve Rush: That's consistently 15, 20% growth every year, which for many businesses, they can only dream of that. If you have to kind of peel that layer back and peel all the layers back, is there maybe one thing that is the standout action activity that you would maybe apply to that success?Shawn Johal: 100% and it's going to sound familiar. I'm sure your listeners have heard this, but I cannot emphasize it enough. You absolutely have to have the right people in your business. I've noticed that systematically, I go into companies and I see right away from the strategic team all the way down, I can pinpoint right off the bat, how many people are not the right people in those businesses. And you and I spoke about this in an earlier conversation. I always ask this one key question. Would you enthusiastically rehire every single one of your team members? And it's shocking that the percentages I get, you know, you would think the percentages would be fairly respectable because these are business owners who have built their own business, right? Steve Rush: Right. Shawn Johal: But the percentages are always closer to between 20 and 50%, which means that there's more than half the company that the business owner would not rehire enthusiastically. So that means you have about 50% of the people that are not the right people in your business. It's just kind of shocking when you think about it, right? Steve Rush: Stark, isn’t it? Really stark. Shawn Johal: So that to me would be the number one thing. I have a very specific methodology when I go into businesses and it's been based a little bit on the whole top rating and Who methodologies for anybody who wants to read those books, the two great books, both the top rating and Who, their based a lot around talent and how to hire. But a lot of the people spend time on how to hire the right people, but they don't spend enough time on development and retention and development and retention are the two, what I would say most overlooked superpowers is that every business owner has, are you developing your people internally? And what are you doing to appreciate them? Show them recognition, make sure they feel really, really welcomed and you know, recognized every single day of the week. And what are we doing to make sure that they 10X their development and leadership and get to the next level, because if your team is not taking that next step, your business never will. That's for sure. Steve Rush: It's one of those things that sounds pretty obvious when you say out loud, but still many businesses. And in fact, many of the clients that I speak to still fall into the trap of not developing their team and retaining and growing their talent. What'd you put that down to? Shawn Johal: Business owners, you know, this cash with liquidity, there's so many different things that could happen in a business that are problematic. And I think that what happens is we end up taking our people for granted because our people are coming in, you know, our amazing employees or team members are showing up every single day. And we just assume that they're happy. When I go into businesses, I always ask the business owners, are your people happy? Do they feel recognized and appreciated? I always get the same answer. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're good. You know, we do a few little things here and there and I'm sure they understand what we're trying to accomplish and I'm sure they're happy. When I asked the employees and the team members, the same question, I get a very different answer. The majority they tell, well, no, I don't know what the vision is of the business. No, one's really communicating that to me. I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish. I'm not sure exactly where we're going. So, I get very, very different answers from the employees than I get from the business owners. And so that's why it's so important for every business owner to understand, who are my A-players and how am I going to recognize them systematically? Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely so. And you've taken your learnings and you've pulled that together and you've written The Happy Leader. Tell us a little bit about what The Happy Leader is? Shawn Johal: Absolutely, and thanks for asking Steve. The book is a book that's written over eight years, believe it or not. I started writing this book a long time ago. I think it's really the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, not being a natural writer or author. I really put a lot of time and heart and soul into this book. I wanted to write something that was written a fable format, you know, because I feel like some of the amazing authors out there like Patrick Lencioni and Robin Sharma, you know, some really, really great leadership speakers and authors. I was always very much impressed with the way they wrote their books. And Bob Burg comes to mind as well, The Go-Giver. And so, I decided to write a book that's written in a fable format. And what I realized Steve, being surrounded by entrepreneurs over the last decade is that entrepreneurs in general seem to be a pretty unhappy bunch. It's shocking, right? Steve Rush: Yeah. Shawn Johal: Because we all have businesses. And you think that the dream is to be a business owner, but I speak to business owners and the most of the time they're unhappy. And I'm part of the entrepreneur’s organization. We have something called, you know, Forum. A Forum is a time where we get together between 8 and 10 entrepreneurs every month. And we share business ideas, opportunities, challenges. We always start with a thing called the one word open and that one word open is always the one word of where you are today, just in your mind. And the words that we hear are stressed you know, stretched too thin, overwhelmed, can't keep up, unbalanced. It's almost never positive words. And I really realized over time that entrepreneurs are really, really stressed out. So, my goal was to write a book about someone who is also, you know, a business leader who was very stressed out and whose life was kind of falling apart. And, you know, who meets a really incredible person. Who's going to teach him how to become a happy leader, really changed his life around so that he really could find happiness, joy, and success in everything that he does. Understanding that it's the journey and not just the destination. Steve Rush: Yeah, and you've created 12 steps to help people on that journey. And within those 12 steps or surrounding those 12 steps, you have four laws. Maybe we can spend a little bit of time around each of those four laws. Shawn Johal: Absolutely, I always believe that the first thing that we need to do as human beings is take care of ourselves first, you know, a great friend and colleague Kevin Lawrence calls it, Put Your Oxygen Mask First, which is a great book that I would recommend everybody to read as well. Are we taking care of ourselves before we take care of others? Because if you're not at the right place in your mind and your heart and your soul, it's going to be very, very challenging to have the type of success and be able to lead others as well. And so, the first law of happiness is what I call the law of self-awareness. And what that means is you have to be self-aware of where you're at yourself in your life. And so, the first part of that law is really comes down to what I consider the greatest superpower that we're not using right now, which is meditation. You know, meditation has taken a lot more space over the last couple of years. We're hearing more about it. We're hearing a lot of incredible business leaders and incredible artists and athletes and people doing meditation. But the reality is that it's still associated with being something very spiritual. And although I have nothing wrong with spirituality, I'm a very spiritual person myself. I like to bring it back to science. And science has proven that meditation has incredible benefits on focus, on creativity, on energy levels. It literally changes our genes and the inside of our brains. And it's shocking to me how little people, even in this day and age, when it's becoming more popular, actually do it. Steve Rush: It's very true. Shawn Johal: Yeah, that'd be something I'd really encourage people to do. Something else that I think is really important that we don't do enough of is actually what I call, you know, circular reciprocation. And what that term means for me is what are you doing to practice gratitude, appreciation, and kindness every single day and everything that you do? Again, scientifically, they've done lots of studies and both writing down the things that make you happy and that you appreciate in your life immediately released the right type of chemicals in our bodies to bring that next level of happiness. And so, you know, doing things like that. Meditation, gratitude appreciation are really part of the first law, which is a law of self-awareness. Steve Rush: Got it. What’s law number two? Shawn Johal: So, law number two, now you've really taking time to be more aware and you're taking care of yourself. Law numbers two is the law of self-improvement. So now you're aware, you know, where you're at and you know, where your kind of the foundation of your mind, body and soul, and now you need to take things to the next level. And so, the law of self-improvement for me has a lot to do with barrier breaking, which is for me, meaning to commit to a stretch goal in your life, something that's way beyond what you've ever accomplished. This could be anything, it could be, you know, it doesn't have to be necessarily a physical goal. It could be, you know, some type of goal where you want to maybe write a book or you want to run a marathon, but you want to do something that stretches you beyond the obvious. And the reason that's important is that, is only when we push ourselves to that next level, that we really get to see our true potential. And I think there's a lot of people that are not meeting their true potential. And there's a tremendous amount of self-limiting beliefs out there that we seem to put on ourselves.Everybody does it, you know, the old imposter syndrome and that, oh, you know, it's not, I can't do that. That person can do it. It's just not true. You know, the reality is that human beings are incredible race and we have so much energy and so much potential. And, you know, we shouldn't be limiting ourselves. And so, by putting a stretch goal of some type that really forces us to go further than we believe possible when you achieve that goal happens is you open up a new world of possibilities, right? Where now you start thinking, well, if I could do this, I could do a whole lot of other things, right? Steve Rush: Right.Shawn Johal: So, yeah. So that's really comes down to the law of self-improvement, within that law I also have, I like to call habit hacking. So, habit hacking, that's an important concept that you and I have spoken quite a bit about together in the past. Steve Rush: Sure, yeah. Shawn Johal: Whereas you're going in there and you're completely revamping all of your habits from morning routines to evening routines to all the way you eat to the way you sleep to the people you speak with, you know, really changing pretty much the you know, the dynamic of your everyday routine. Steve Rush: Some of it is about unlearning what you've already learned. That's not serving you well and relearning and creating new hacks and habits to create the right foundations, right? Shawn Johal: Absolutely, Steve. It's so important. you know, I speak to so many people and you know, business leaders are all different scopes of life on that. I noticed that the majority of them don't have a very good morning routine, you know, I asked them, okay, you know, what's happening when you start your day? You know, I wake up and right away, started looking into my phone and I started trying to see what's happening with emails to get caught up. And, you know, it's literally the absolute worst way you can possibly start a day. Like you want to start your day where you're giving yourself the intention of what you want to accomplish in the few hours that you have ahead of you. And once you've figured out that intention, you need to take on a few key activities when you wake up that are going to set you up for success and give you a lot of energy. Steve Rush: Right. Shawn Johal: So, you should either again, be doing some type of meditation, very quickly reading some positive literature, maybe writing in a journal, really setting yourself up for success before you become a slave to technology, which unfortunately seems to be what a lot of us do. Steve Rush: You have this approach called 10, 10, 10, don’t you? Shawn Johal: Yes, this was taught to me by my mentor, Warren Ruston, the incredible, incredible human being. Warren has this concept of 10, 10, 10, where he, you know, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes. That's what it represents. You would do three different activities for 10 minutes each. It would be 10 minutes of meditation, 10 minutes of journaling, and 10 minutes of reading, positive literature. When I teach this to people, I get a lot of pushback because a lot of people tell me the same thing. You expect me to take on 30 minutes to start my day. I don't even have, you know, three minutes. And so, it's a little bit of a challenge at first. So, what I explained to people to do is say, listen, you can take the 10, 10, 10, which is super impactful. If it's too much for you, what I want you to do instead is do a five, five, five. So, you could just cut it in half and do five minutes of each. And then when I get pushed back on the five, five, five, I tell people, okay, listen, if you can't even do the five, five, five, just do one time five, pick one of the three activities, do one of them for five minutes. Even that starts your day, so substituting, checking email, and you running right away into fires, you know, fire extinguishing, as I like to call it. And instead doing something much, much more intentional, such as a meditation or journal is completely going to change the way your day is approached and the way you're going to take on you know, the activities that you have that day, it really makes a huge difference. Steve Rush: It switches on the prefrontal cortex. It creates you your strong foundations for the day, rather than being emotionally triggered by other stuff that could impact on you, right? Shawn Johal: Exactly. It really switches the script where now you're in control of your day. Whereas when you're just becoming a slave to technology, you no longer control it. And you're no longer in that circle of influence that you know, was so well taught to us by Stephen Covey, you have to make sure that you can control your own destiny. And if you're not taking those steps in the morning, you're always going to be chasing your day and chasing your day is obviously not the type of place you want to be mentally. You want to be in a place where you're deciding what's going to happen next, and you're not really having someone else decide for you Steve Rush: Exactly, right. And of course, if you're not in control, that's when stress starts to creep into the workplace and into our world, which is so counterproductive. Shawn Johal: Exactly, and I think, you know, as you know, very well, Steve. Stress right now is probably, you know, especially in the virus here, it's the biggest culprit of most businesses. Steve Rush: Definitely. Shawn Johal: Right now, recent surveys have said that, you know, over 40% of employees are currently stressed out and they're not telling their employer. Stress levels are rampant around the world. They've been going up every single year, over the past 25 years. People are really stressed. People are really, really stressed, and we have to find ways to reduce that stress for them. Steve Rush: So, what’s law number three? Shawn Johal: Law number three is what I love to call the law of self-giving. So, what that means is, now you've made yourself fully aware of where you're at in your life. You've taken on new stretch goals. You've changed your habits, you're visualizing your success, and now you need to help others, you know, to do the same. There's a concept that I read a really long time ago from an amazing author, and the book was called The Dream Manager, Matthew Kelly. And basically, that book is incredibly powerful because it really explains, it's more in a business concept, but it really explains how you can go into a business and do, you know, dream facilitation and help people really achieve their goals and their dreams, because each one of us, you and I included Steve, we all have certain skill sets and we have certain connections. And if we use those and help others, we would definitely be able to help them take that next step in their journeys and their success. And so, for the law of self-giving, I like to have people do that, that dream facilitation concept for people around them, you know, it could be for family, it could be for friends, it could be for peers. What you want to do is you want to find someone and you want to sit with them and figure out, okay, what is it that they are trying to accomplish in their lives? Is it something professional? It could be something personal? Now what is a dream that they wish they could really pursue and they're struggling with, and then you make it a point to actually go and help them accomplish that dream, you use it. I'm not saying it's financial. You know, I'm not telling people to go out there and, you know, give ten thousand dollars to this person, but you have unique skills and contacts that could probably help this person some way somehow. And so, you want to use those so that you can go and help that person accomplish their dreams, and then you become a dream facilitator for them. And so that would be, you know, one part of the law of self-giving, you know, another part of it for me, which is really important is gifting people every single day in a specific way. That's something that we just don't do enough of this. This is one idea that I think people could use really easily. One of my really good friends, Rob Murray, and he's an entrepreneur in Canada. He sent me an email last week and his email was just entitled. Thank you for being you. And the email was just three lines, very quick and short, telling me why he appreciated me as a human being for no reason, just absolutely out of the blue. And that's something that I've been encouraging people to do a lot, you know, pick people in your network and send them a quick email, just telling them why you appreciate them so much. It does not to be crazy long, does not have to be this whole love letter. Just very simply, you know, telling the person why they mean a lot to you and why they're important in your life. And just realize that the impact that will have on that person on the other end is unbelievable. It really, really is, and we don't take enough time to realize the impact our words have. And the intention has when you do something like that. Steve Rush: It’s very true. One of my previous guests on the show actually, who will remain nameless so they don't feel overly embarrassed while I share this story. Sent me a note just a few weeks back saying, Steve, you are amazing. I just felt the whole world lift around me in that moment because nobody does that or rarely people do that. And it felt so special to get that message. Shawn Johal: Absolutely. I mean, it's just so important. It has to be authentic, obviously, that's the key, but the reality is that people are amazing and there's so many people around us that are always doing so many great things and they have so many friends and colleagues. And do we take the time to appreciate them? We, don't and why? Steve Rush: Exactly. It's one of those things. If you think about how we've become matured in our ways and our thinking, we've unlearned some of the things that weren't natural and organic as we were growing up, such as saying, thank you, or showing gratitude to people. Dreaming big, as you just talked about it and that facilitation of dreams. As children, we would have naturally done that. But as we become older, we've unlearned how to do that effectively. And I think that's a quite neat reframe that you put there around that whole giving law. Shawn Johal: Yeah, I think you're right, Steve, it's very unfortunate. I don't know why that happens. It's a very bizarre thing that society and the world seems to always be pushing us down. And it's like, dreaming is only now reserved for those very, very select few like 0.001% of people in the world that are, you know, these successful athletes or entrepreneurs or artists, but every single one of us has that creativity within us, we really do. Why are we not using it? I think sometimes beats us down a little bit, trying to get yourself out of that, you know, that little bit of a prison of our minds that we're thrown into and trying to find that creativity again and everything that we do. Steve Rush: I agree Shawn, and what’s law number four? Shawn Johal: So, ending on number four, you know, now you've gone through self-awareness, you're starting to do go through self-improvement and now you're into self-giving and you're giving back. Finally, its self-belief. Now is really where you're taking the time to say, okay, you know I'm going to take things to the next level. I'm really no longer going to have the imposter syndrome. I'm an amazing human being and I can do anything that I want. And so, the law of self-belief as, you know, a few different elements to it, for me, one of the most important things is what I call spinning positivity. We owe it to ourselves to eliminate those things that are energy drains in our lives. Those things that are really negative, those could be people, it could be situations. It could be the environment, whatever things in your life. Should make a list of all the things that drain your energy. You know, I like to call them energy vampires and really make sure that you're just getting those out of your way as quickly as possible. And then what I like to call the next step is really the belief building. So, where you're really building your belief system around the new you, because now you've really developed a new personality really, and everything that you've done in the first three steps. And now you can take your own personal success, whatever that means for you. It doesn't mean financial. It means whatever you think, however, you define success for yourself and you can take that to the next level. And then that final step of that last law is really what I like to call, just go big, which again, comes back to the point that we talked about earlier about creativity a few minutes ago. It's just, why are we thinking so small? Like I just don't understand it. We have so much potential, any one of us. This is for all of us you know, and again, it's relative to your own life into what you're trying to do, but I really encourage people now to really think as big and as bold as possible. You know, it's funny yesterday, Steve, I was working with my digital marketing coordinator. We were rebuilding our vision and our business on a few different levels. And we were just looking at the why our company exists and we kind of changed it yesterday. And we really put it as empowering business leaders to create and to accomplish their most audacious goals. And we really spent a lot of time on that because for us, the audacious part, we debated it quite a bit. And we said, you know what?Why not? Like, you know, people need to be a little more audacious. Like you got to, you got to think bigger. When you think about something, I think what you're going to accomplish you should immediately like double two X that and say, okay, now what I'm going to try to do double what I just thought. Steve Rush: It's often our worldview that holds us back though, right? Those biases, those limiting beliefs that we give ourselves that stop us really thinking big? Shawn Johal: Exactly. I see it all the time going into businesses and with companies, when I work with them, they've already given them the cells like a ceiling. They've already, most of the time told themselves, okay, we can only accomplish this much as a business. Or I meet individual people who say, this is as far as I can strive for. And it's just disappointing because I know that they can do more, I can see it. They have so much more potential. So yeah, it is almost getting out of our own mind. Steve Rush: Which in itself is another habit that takes practice and repetition, right? Shawn Johal: Absolutely. You just have to be working on yourself constantly. And that's why things like meditation and journaling and visualization are so important. And again, they're scientifically proven to work. It's not spiritual. It's really science-based. Steve Rush: Yeah, love it. So, Sean, this part of the show now, we get the opportunity to hack into your mind as a leader, and to really start to think about some of the great things that you can share in addition to what you've already shared. So, the first place I'd like to go with you is to find out what you think your top three leadership hacks might be? Shawn Johal: I would say to you, the first one is the community. When I say the community, we all have access to some type of community around us. I'm an entrepreneur. I have, you know, the entrepreneur’s organization. I have, you know, a lot of friends that are entrepreneurs as well. And so, I'm always, you know, hacking into this amazing network and community of peers that I have, but that applies to everyone. You know, you could be, you know, a business leader, you could be a manager, you could be a frontline employee, you have a community available to you out there some way, somehow. You just have to look, there are like-minded peers that you can share ideas with and surround yourself with to help you take that next step. So, I'm always encouraging people to really get out there and make sure that they're networking and they're finding a community for themselves that could really help them take things to the next level.So, for me, that's definitely number one, number two would be mentorship. And so, there's a community of peers that can help you a lot. We all should have some type of mentor in our lives. And you know, we'd probably take a whole other podcast to talk about how to go find the perfect mentor, but I know a lot of people are intimidated by it. At the same time, it's not as hard as you think. You know, there are a lot of different ways to find a mentor out there. A mentor could be, again, it could be professional, it could be personal. There are probably some people out there that have a lot of wisdom and knowledge to give to you. And it's not just a take, take, take situation. A mentorship relationship is very much give and take. And so, the right type of mentor will also be getting a lot from that relationship. And so, you know, when you can find the right type of person to help you out there, it will make a world of difference. I've had several different mentors and most recently I've been working over the last few years with Warren Ruston, as I mentioned just the amount of learning that I've gotten from Warren and the guidance and being challenged on my different ideas has been absolutely inspiring. So that would be an absolutely massive element to look into. And finally, hack number three would be habit hacking. We spoke a little bit before we didn't spend a lot of time on it. You absolutely need to change how you wake up and what you do before going to sleep. Those are the two most important times of the day when you absolutely need to master your habits. You need to wake up, have a very, very specific way, whether it's working out with doing the things I mentioned earlier with meditation, visualization and the same thing before going to sleep, you know, I see people are falling asleep to writing emails or to watching Netflix. This is not how you want to go to sleep. You want to go to sleep, you're preparing your brainwaves because you're getting into that Theta brainwave. And then you're going into the deep Delta brainwave. It's a time of day where we have the most impact on our subconscious mind. And so, do you want to be going to sleep or you're stressed out and you're thinking about what you have to do the next morning. Now you're marinating in those thoughts for about eight hours, you know, maybe five, maybe six, maybe seven, and you're not putting your brain at the right place because most of the day, 95% of the time we're living in our subconscious mind. And so, what you put into your subconscious is incredibly important. And so, I always encourage all of my business leaders that I work with, make sure that you have an incredible morning routine, but just as important, make sure you have an incredible evening routine before going to sleep as well. Steve Rush: Yeah, I love that. It's really, really powerful, and if you do it every day, then before, you know, it's just the way it happens for you. It becomes part of what you do, rather than a routine. Shawn Johal: Absolutely. Steve Rush: Brilliant. The next part of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is where something hasn't worked out as planned, or indeed hasn't worked out at all in some cases, but as a result of the experience, we now use it as a positive in our life. What will be your Hack to Attack? Shawn Johal: It's funny, this is something that's happened to me very recently. I've been following, you know, I've been coaching a lot of businesses and when COVID hit a lot of the businesses that I was coaching, you know, had to take a back seat and I basically had to work for free for about three months. Now things have come back to normal, but during that time, I learned a lot about online marketing, online courses, you know, launching virtual summits. And I jumped deep. I deep dove into a lot of these, and I followed a lot of influencers. And what happened is that I realized that a lot of these digital influencers make it sound so easy, right? Because apparently the whole world is going digital. And so therefore it's just so easy to have success in the digital world, which is just not the case. Then recently I launched an online course. And my first online course, you know, it did not have the success that I was really hoping for and really expected. And it really hit me hard because you know, that kind of lived through that failure and to have to deal with it, was tough for me. You know, it's not something that I'm used to. I encourage my kids to fail all day, but when it happens to you, it's actually really hard to deal with. And so, you know, I looked at it and what I realized is that I had completely built it the wrong way. I'd also launched it the wrong way. And it's giving me a tremendous amount of learning. I'm going to continue pursuing that route and launching an online course over the next year, for sure. And I now have the tools necessary to do it the right way. So, I think I needed that first failure to know how to do it properly in the future. Steve Rush: And it’s how you frame it, that's the most important thing, right? To have this principle that there's only a win and learn, there is no fail, and it's that framing of the experience that's going to make you successful in the future. Shawn Johal: Exactly, and I think most people get caught up in the emotions of a failure. Steve Rush: Definitely. Shawn Johal: I do that myself, you know, it's really tough. I'm not someone who's had a tremendous amount of failures in my life without a few here and there, and they've been tough to deal with. And this one recently hit home pretty hard too, and it stopped, while there is an emotional aspect to it, and you have to be able to get over that emotional aspect as quickly as possible. Steve Rush: The last part of the show, we get to give you a chance to do some time travel, bump into Shawn at 21, and give him some advice or some words of wisdom. What's it going to be? Shawn Johal: It would be so many Steve, so many, but I'll pick one. I would've said master the arts of meditation and visualization at an earlier age. And for some reason it seems to come later in life where we start having more introspection. I think those are incredible tools that allow us to have so much better control of our emotions and of our own vision. And by doing both meditation and visualization for me, it's been in the last year only where I've started doing it. It's changed my life completely. And I'm trying to teach my kids now how to do it at a very early age, because to me, those are two super powers that are free and that we're just not utilizing much. Steve Rush: 100%! Great advice. Great advice. So, if folks want to get in touch with you and learn a little bit more about the work that you do with Elevation and indeed how to get hold of some of your insights, where's the best place for us to send them? Shawn Johal: I say two places where I spend a lot of time, obviously my website, which is shawnjohal.com, so S.H.A.W.N-J.O.H.A.L.com and I spend a tremendous amount of time on LinkedIn as well. You'll always find me posting a lot of things on LinkedIn, trying to provide a little bit of ideas and learning to the community out there. And so those would be the two best places to find me for sure. Steve Rush: Awesome. We'll make sure that those links are in the show notes and that anybody who's listened to today can literally just click on over and get straight to find more about you. So, it's only left for me, Shawn, to say, thank you for joining us on our community here. It's been amazing talking to you. You're truly inspirational guy. I've learned loads in just listening to you today. And every time I listened to speak with you, I always pick up a couple of nuggets. So, thank you for being part of our community on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Shawn Johal: Well, thank you, Steve. It's been a real pleasure. I love what you're doing and keep it up. It's really inspiring, honestly. Steve Rush: Thank you Shawn. Shawn Johal: Thank you. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handle there is @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.  

Jessica Katz is the founder and owner of Liberated Elephant,  she's an acclaimed agile coach, mentor and speaker. We can learn lots about change with Jessica today including:What actually are the “agile change values”How to unlock your internal predatorThe key themes for leading changeHow to liberate your elephant with an agile mindsetPlus load more hacks!Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Jessica Katz below:Liberated Elephant - http://liberatedelephant.comJessica on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeskatz/Jessica on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ElephantTaming Full Transcript Below ----more---- Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Today's special guest is Jessica Katz. She's a trainer, a mentor, and an Agile coach through her firm, Liberated Elephant. Before we get a chance to speak with Jessica, it's The Leadership Hacker News.The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: There is a "change" theme in today's news. So, we're going to focus on a report created by Bond Capital, a Silicon Valley VC firm, whose portfolio includes Slack and Uber. The recent report, which briefed us investors has said that the global pandemic has had a similar devastating impact to Silicon Valley as the San Francisco earthquake of 1906. So why does that matter to the rest of the world? Well, Bond best-known partner. Mary Meeker is a former bank analyst and renowned for her annual internet trends report, which many investors and entrepreneurs use as a touchstone for where tech is and where it's going. And her 28-page report calls out some really interesting themes that I thought I'd share with you. So, here's the top five things I've pulled out of the report. Number one is data-driven forward planning, the biggest market cap growers, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Alphabet, Google, and Facebook, or possess short and long-term business plans centred around data and their data plans include execution, iteration, engineering, and science. The report goes on to say admits the current pandemic expect these business plans to be more widely focused with more scientists, engineers, domain experts, serving as board members and non-executive directors with much stronger, more relevant voices. Number two, the continuation of remote working environments. With the coronavirus forcing companies to adapt to remote working environments to much greater degrees than they were used to. Many companies may find for certain positions, remote working is just fine, if not more efficient for them, CEOs and boardrooms will need to reflect on their companies and employees and ask management to recommend their evaluation of what their teams work best with together in person and what also needs to be effective to ensure maximum efficiency if they continue to work remotely. Number three, interestingly, Meeker findings from an informal survey asking companies about remote work found that those who focus on effective written communication and documentation based off the Amazon way had the best and most efficient transitions to remote work. This form of collaboration can result in much more discerning and productive input. And of course, decision making. Number four, and not surprising, accelerating digital transformation. The businesses that are doing the best and will make it through this pandemic with less difficulties and problems will be the companies who had already begun the offline to online transition. The current pandemic has accelerated these trends, which will place more emphasis and focus on a company's technological presence with its worker consumers, as mentioned by Meeker. This includes the integration of cloud-based business functions, persistently demanded products, accessible and manoeuvre online presence, efficient delivery methods with limited contact and digitally efficient products with a social media presence. And number five is on-demand business growth models. With the change in the way that we as consumers and workers have adapted the demand on companies, such as Uber, Airbnb are struggling due to social distancing, staying at home orders. On the other hand, on-demand services such as Instacart or DoorDash or any other door delivery service provider has expensed large spikes in demand and are eagerly hiring new labour. The on-demand economy has grown across the globe over the last few years. In Meeker report, she calls out that in 2018, there were 56 million estimated on-demand customers compared to 25 million in 2016. The Bureau of labour statistics also concluded the on-demand services has around 156 million workers, and that's in the US alone as of the middle of 2020. Meeker believes that the on-demand and door to door delivery service may be gaining a permanent market share in these unusual times, due to the clear benefits to consumers and the opportunity of displaced workers to receive work, income and schedule your flexibility around their personal schedules. The report goes on to say that Instacart is reportedly hiring 250,000 workers now, which in more than Walmart and A3combined. So, I guess the leadership lesson here is as leaders and as business folk, are we being really thoughtful to the trends that are emerging in the future that are impacting on not just what's happening now, but how our business might need to adapt and change in the future? My final reflections is for you to consider. What are the top five things that are trending in your business area that could impact on you, your colleagues and your business in the future? That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Like always, if you have any information, stories, nudge it my way and contact us through social media. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Jessica Katz is a special guest on today's show. She's the founder and owner of Liberated Elephant. She's an agile coach and mentor where she really makes the elephant in the room work for you, Jessica, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Jessica Katz: Hi, thank you so much for having me on today. Steve Rush: It's our pleasure. So, before we kind of get into a little bit about what you do now, just give us a little bit of a tour if you like of your career so far, where it's taken you? Jessica Katz: Sure. So, my career so far, well, I started in an administrative role really and recognize that if I was going to make the kind of money, I wanted to make to support my family, I needed to something different, went back to school and ended up in project management and from project management moved over into scrum, which is a type of agile process and then into agile coaching and now into my own business, which is the really abbreviated version of my history.Steve Rush: What was it specifically for you that says, right, okay. I've got this foundation of project management, you've pivoted into the world of scrum and agile, which is perhaps a precursor, isn't it for managing change in a more rapid and changing environment, but what was it specifically, you said, right. I'm now going to run my own business. I'm going to leave behind corporate America? Jessica Katz: Yeah. So, I got passed over for a promotion and it caused me to introspect and realize that my personal values and desire for the way I thought business should be, were out of alignment with the company I was with. And I started my business there and I worked as an employee at there and at other places before it was really able to cut the wires and move into my own thing and have it just be my thing, you know, the getting passed over for promotion. I thought I was ready for, that I thought I was capable of, that I thought I was the right person for and realizing rather suddenly that the organization was going a very different direction than I thought was healthy or good for the people that work there. Caused me to say, you know, maybe I should be making this kind of change in the world and not just in the one place I work. And so that's really what kicked off my business. I wanted to start moving the culture of business elsewhere, Steve Rush: Got it, by the way, I think your company name is an amazing, so Liberated Elephant. It just instantaneously puts most people that worked in any business environment, straight in that room, where there is that uncomfortable elephant awaiting to be attacked. How did you come up with the name or is it just blatantly obvious? Jessica Katz: Well, it took a little work to come up with the name, cause lots of people have business names with elephants. I had to do a little digging to find the right name, but for me, one of my superpowers is that I'm able to identify chinks in the armour. And when I work for other people, when I'm in an employee position, then I'm what they call an internal predator. And I look for chinks in the armour and identify weaknesses in the processes or breakdowns in communication. And I bring those to light and I'm ready to work through them with whomever I've brought them to, right. And I'm not throwing them at people going now, you solve it, right. I want to solve it with them. And those kinds of things, breakdowns in communication, in effective processes, processes we've put in place to deal with personality instead of actually dealing with the personality. Those are the kinds of elephants you see regularly creating dysfunction in our organization.Steve Rush: Now the whole principle of managing change and leading change has really morphed over the last 10 years. And for those that are not familiar with agile, there's a number of different variants of variations of Scrum, Kanban, and others. So, for those that are not familiar, just maybe give us a summary as to how you might describe somebody that you've bumped into has no idea about leading and managing change. What agile really is? Jessica Katz: Sure. So agile is based in four values. Individuals and interactions, over processes and tools, working software over comprehensive documentation, customer collaboration, over contract negotiation and responding to change over following a plan. Those four values are the basis. Now agile as a whole is an umbrella term that encompasses many ways that we deliver on those four values. Scrum is one of them. Kanban is another, Lean, XP, even Six Sigma. They all fall under that agile umbrella, but agile at its core is just four values and 12 principles. It doesn't have any roles. It doesn't have any instructions on how to do it. It is just a value-based system. What we hear a lot in the world is, oh, well I'm Scrum, so I must be agile. And those two things, they don't have to be the same. Steve Rush: Right. Jessica Katz: You can be Scrum and not actually be living the values. You can be Agile and not be doing Scrums. So, there's you know, they can be separate. So, you know, one thing that I coach people towards in change really change management is about getting from where you are, to where you want to be and the way you move an organization from where you are to where you want to be, is you shift the mindsets and beliefs so that the behaviours follow. And often when people implement Scrum, they implement the process and then, oh, we forgot. We also need to switch people's minds. Steve Rush: Right. Jessica Katz: And you actually need to start with the mindset and then move into the rest. And that's a big lift for a lot of organizations. Well, we want to see results. What are the things we're doing to show that we're doing this change? And the real shift happens in small moments and in the individual minds of everybody in you company. Steve Rush: Okay. So, when it comes to coaching other project leaders and managers around Agile, what would you say maybe the one or two consistent themes that keep presenting themselves for you that our listeners could learn from? Jessica Katz: Sure. So, the first big one is that if leadership isn't bought in, really thinks the idea of having an Agile mindset is valuable, then we won't succeed. The reality is the transformation in organizations takes every individual to transform, or at least the majority of the people in the organization to transform. And it's weighted towards leadership because the individual contributors and your system will emulate leadership, copy what they see, because that's the path to promotion. Steve Rush: Right. Jessica Katz: So, what you really want to do is get your leaders bought in. So, when they bring me in as a coach, if I'm coaching an organization towards that change, I'm going to spend a lot of time with leadership. It doesn't mean the teams and the individual contributors don't need coaching, but they bring me in as an enterprise coach, I'm going to bring in a couple of Agile team level coaches to handle the, you know, the individual contributors and getting them moving in the right way. So, we attack it from two fronts. We get the leadership moved, and we get the individual contributors moved. The second problem that shows up is the middle manager, the middle manager gets stuck. In Agile, we call the frozen middle. If you shift the top and you shift the bottom, the manager has both foundational pieces sort of shaken underneath them. And they have to figure out who they become in the new way, right? If you move both of those things, it's the who moved my cheese concept, right? Oh, suddenly my cheese, isn't where it used to be. The way I get measured, the way I get promoted, the way I promote others, the way I measure others all has to shift with that. And it can be very frightening for managers. Steve Rush: Yeah, sure. Jessica Katz: I'm not telling people what to do anymore. I'm letting them figure it out. And their job becomes connecting individual contributors to the larger business vision. And that's not a skill set we're taught before we become managers. So, it's can be quite, yeah, it can be quite frightening for the middle management set.Steve Rush: And when you start to think about leading change, what do you think the reason is that so many leaders of change initiatives, change programs and organizations often put that whole process before mindset? What do you think generally causes that?   Jessica Katz: It’s easier. Steve Rush: Yeah, I guess it is, isn't it? Yeah. Jessica Katz: It’s a path of least resistance to say, okay, use this tool and follow this process. And then we'll be Agile. Is easier than saying, let me spend the time to convince the population that this is a good idea, and really sit with them as they work through the struggle of shifting mindset so that they can be better, right? At slow, it often even just initiating a new process, never mind shifting a mindset. It actually slows down productivity for a little while with the long-term gain of increased productivity and public organizations. You're not driven towards long-term gain. You're driven towards short term gain because that's what moves the stock market, makes your board happy. So, there's a bunch of cognitive dissonances that shows up and, you know, sort of conflicts of interest that appear. Steve Rush: And of course, if you have to manage mindsets of others, you've also got to manage the mindset of yours. And if your mindset is perhaps less open, less growth-orientated, then you're less likely to want to be experimental and to do new things and test new ways of working. Right? Jessica Katz: Yeah, absolutely. It takes a lot of introspection and a lot of work to look at yourself. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: And the curiosity of self and curiosity of others is probably one of the biggest leadership skills. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: If you can get curious about yourself and where you might be wrong, and you can look at others and get curious about where they're coming from and their perspective, you get a much, much richer picture. It becomes collaborative instead of directive. And everybody gets to be in the together instead of responding and being reactive to everything else going on around them. Steve Rush: The first time I got involved in Agile was a number of years ago, and I had this experience where I'd kind of gathered my team together. We were all on point. We all felt engaged with the new ways of working. We went to our executive team who all gave us the verbal communication, they said, "yes, we're all agreed", and, "we're all aligned", but actually they still wanted to get old gunk charts. And they still wanted the regular milestones and check-ins and steer codes that came with good old fashioned waterfall projects. How do you deal with that scenario? Jessica Katz: Okay. This is a classic Agile coach response. It depends. It depends a lot on the context. So, let's say they want those things because it's a division that's making the shift and their leaders aren't making the shift. So, they still need the same reporting to fit into the rest of the organization. So sometimes that's the situation and a well-placed project manager can be very good at the translation between what we're doing in an Agile way, to the way we used to do things in the way we need to communicate to the rest of the organization. So that can be a really beneficial asset to that kind of situation. Another thing that I found is that there's not a good focus when they're receiving metrics. There's not a good focus on what they're going to do with that metric. So, a lot of times you can sit, you can look at somebody and go, okay, here that you want this Gantt chart, what problem are you trying to solve by having this Gantt chart and if the problem and the Gantt chart don't actually match, right? So maybe the problem is well, I want to know what value we're delivering to the customer. Well, the Gantt chart, doesn't tell you what value we're delivering. It tells you when we're delivering things, but value is usually hidden inside initiatives or features or user stories, right? And, often organizations are very bad at communicating value. They're very good at communicating output. How many, you know, how many widgets did we make? Easy communication. What impact did those widgets have on our customer base and on our interactions with the world, that's a much harder lift. And so, you sort of leave that status quo going for a while, and you start to introduce other ideas and build on that till they're satisfied that they're getting the answers, they need to answer the question. And then you let go of the initial Gantt chart type style, right? It's just like implementing a new system. You do a little AB testing, right? Here's the thing you use to get. Here's the thing we're going to give you now, which one of these better answers your question? And once they're satisfied that the new information answers their question, well, you can let go of the old information. Steve Rush: I wrote an article about four or five years ago when I was doing exactly this kind of transitioning behaviours around how people were leading change. And I coined the phrase of water Agile for, you know, we were kind of half Agile, half Waterfall. And it just takes a bit of careful consideration, education and communication to those people, doesn't it? Not just around how you're going to move them. What can you let go of and what do you need to hold and what reporting needs to go where? But do you ever find yourself now in the world of Agile saying to your coaches, stop right there. That's just a good old traditional Waterfall project. You don't need Agile. Jessica Katz: Well, you know, I haven't run across one of them in recent years, but I do when I teach about Agile, I do make it very clear that there are opportunities for Waterfall that make good sense. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: A Waterfall project works when you know what you're going to do and how you're going to do it, and who's going to do it. Steve Rush: Definitely so. Jessica Katz: If you know the answer to those three questions with real, like real definite, like you really know. Not we guessed about our requirements and we think it's going to be this, but like really know. Installing a new server, updating firmware on a server, those kinds of things, maybe don't need Agile, right? Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: Yeah, and those can work in a Waterfall way because you know what you need to do and you know how you're going to do it. And you probably have the same team that always does that kind of work. So, you have all of the pieces in play. Agile really is meant for complex projects, things where you don't know what, you don't know how and the, who is wobbly. And when I say to who is wobbly, I mean, the team is changing regularly or they're a brand-new team together. Or, you know, the team has to shift as the project shifts. That makes the who quadrant unknown as well. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: Yeah, so we're really like, Agile is best for complexity. And when it's simple, let it be simple. Waterfalls is okay; however, I would recommend that you make it small in both cases. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: Yeah, that if you do a Waterfall project, that's going to take you a year to implement, it's way too big. You want to do a really small Waterfall project, not a big gigantic thing because we're usually wrong about our estimates. Almost always wrong about our estimate. The cone of uncertainty will tell you your 0.25 to 4 times wrong on your estimate. So, if you estimate something's going to take a month, it could take you a week or it could take you four months. But if you estimate something's going to be a year, it could take you a quarter or it could take you four years. And that costs associated with that kind of risk is much higher. So, the smaller you can make it the better chance you have. Steve Rush: Risk is also a really interesting point, isn't it? That keeps coming up in my change world. When I start introducing the whole hypothesis of experiments and testing and using some of the Agile techniques to start helping move change forward, faster and release value earlier. One of the things that keeps coming back is, surely this is much riskier than a good old traditional or to Waterfall project. How would you respond if you were positioned with that? Jessica Katz: Yeah, it only feels like Waterfall is less risky because it feels false. Like it's more sure. Steve Rush: Right. Jessica Katz: Right, when we do a Waterfall project, we're certain. We've built all the requirements, we know everything, but the reality is as soon as it hits the market, we've lost our surety. Now we're getting feedback from our customer base and the market could be internal to the organization or external, as soon as it hits the market, you start getting feedback. And if you can't be responsive to that, if you spent a year building a project and now it hits the market and you find out the market, doesn't like it, you've lost a year's worth of money, where if you deliver for a couple of weeks and the market starts responding and you have an opportunity to shift your requirements so that it better suits the market. In a year's time. If it takes that long. In a year's time, you're much more likely to have satisfied your customer. And so, you know, usually when you build these big Waterfall projects, you pull like one or two people from the customer base, you have a little advocacy group. You're not really getting the full breadth of your customers and your customers are really what make the return-on-investment possible. Steve Rush: And managed well, Agile will de-risk your project, the risk of change. Jessica Katz: Yes. Steve Rush: Absolutely, and I'm delighted here and it's absolutely something I experienced quite a lot, so awesome. You mentioned a little earlier, the frozen middle of the middle manager. This is taking you down a path yourself now where you're putting pen to paper and writing a book. So, we'll naturally going to have you back on the show when the books up and running to tell us a little bit about that, but from your research about that kind of frozen middle, you kind of almost identified, having you? There are three roles that typically present themselves in organizations where that kind of gets stuck. Tell us a little bit about what you found? Jessica Katz: Sure. So, if you were a manager, you wear three hats. One is the hat of being an employee, right? I'm an employee. I'm coming here to do a job, to get paid, to grow myself, right? So that's one role,  the next role is one of advocate where you're advocating for the people that report to you. You're trying to create an environment that makes it possible for them to deliver, give them opportunities to grow, remove blockers so they can be successful. And then the other hat you're wearing is an enforcer. And this is the person who manages the status quo of the organization. Generally speaking, organizations want to stay at status quo. The pool will always be back to status quo. And the middle manager is the one making sure that continues down that path and in doing so, if they keep with the status quo and they present status quo and they lead like they're part of the status quo, then they're more likely to get promoted and have raises and be recognized for their work. So, there's a benefit to them in being an enforcer financially. And the other side of that hat is if you're advocating for the change, that's occurring in your teams and for your team, particularly if the team culture and the leadership culture is different. If you're advocating for them, then you look like you're not part of leadership and it will hurt your chances for promotion and raise because everybody wants to hire people and promote people that look and feel like them. And I'm not necessarily here talking about like physical attributes here. I'm talking about the, you know, the state of being, if you approach work the same way as the leader’s approach work, they're more likely to recognize you as a good leader. Then if you approach work differently, Steve Rush: Yeah. You need that kind of Azure and provocateur that drummer the change, Meister, call it whatever you will, but you need that to push against the status quo. How do you therefore then encourage that middle manager to manage their political corporate self-whilst still doing that effectively? Jessica Katz: Very carefully. Steve Rush: It's definitely true. Jessica Katz: The first thing I recommend is that if they have a change that they think is worthwhile in the system. That in this position of middle-management, you don't actually have a lot of power. You have more power than the people that report to you, but in the organization at large, you don't have a lot. So, my recommendation then is to find a mentor in the system who's in leadership, who's known for implementing change and have them help you shepherd that idea through the system because you have to move change through the system that is. It's like, I mean, we see it all the time in the United States, the way laws are made, right? You have an idea and you have to wait until there's enough social pressure behind it before laws started to happen. It's the same kind of thing that needs to happen inside an organization. You build social pressure behind your ideas, and if you can get a mentor who is known for implementing change into your system, that's already in a high leadership position. You can leverage them to help you think it through and get it through in a way that is healthy and healthy for you as a manager and then also healthy for the organization. So, it's not jarring to the status quo. Steve Rush: And this is also where Agile can help too. Isn't it? Jessica Katz: Yeah. Steve Rush: So, by running some experiments and some hypotheses, you can gather some evidence that helps the energy behind the change you want to plan or design, right?Jessica Katz: That's right. That big word that I heard you use there, the big words, hypothesis and experiment. A hypothesis looks like this. I believe, or we believe by implementing this change, we will see these results. We'll know where, right. Or we'll know we're wrong when this data is evidence and then try it a little. In fact, when I do Agile transformations, I don't recommend they changed the entire company all at once. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: I recommend that they set up a team or two fully empowered to make all the changes they need and test it in their system first and find out what blockers show up so that you can remove some of those blockers as you, it spread it further. So, you're not throwing your entire company into chaos, right? You're putting a company or two or a team or two into a chaos and deep learning for your organization. And I suppose that's really the trick around hypotheses and experiments is that you're looking for learning. Do you know that you're right? Is the change that you want to implement in the system a good one? Well, we don't know. So, test it, find a way to test it. Steve Rush: Yeah. Jessica Katz: Small test it small. Steve Rush: And if you get these behaviours right, as a middle manager, these middle managers will progress because they'll have the evidence to suggest that what they want to do, delete the organizations, right? And then you create that change culture at the top of the shop through kind of just natural growth and natural progression, I suspect. Jessica Katz: Essentially, if you can get a groundswell, the company has no choice, but to move, right. But you'd probably need a, you know, a one in five for every leader that is resistant to the change you need at least, you know, five or more people that are into the idea of that change. Steve Rush: Got it.   Jessica Katz: Because of that weigh towards leadership.Steve Rush: So, this part of the shows where we now start to turn the leadership lens of you. So, I'm going to ask you a few questions now just to hack into your great leadership mind. So, the first kind of thing I'd like to explore with you is your top three leadership hacks. Jessica Katz: Okay. So, the first thing I want to talk about is spend 15 minutes every day planning your day. It's it feels counterintuitive. Well, that's 15 minutes. I'm not working then. Right? But the 15 minutes is used as a little bit of self-care. It lets you look at the day and decide what you need to prioritize in that day to be effective, even better. If you can do like 30 minutes on Monday or Sunday. So, you know, going into the week, what to expect. Now, those 15 minutes could be in the morning if you're an early bird or in the evening, if you're a night owl for the next day, what I have found is that if I do it in the morning, it sorts of sets me up for the whole day and I'm much more effective and the right things get done. And if I do it in the evening, it makes it easier to sleep. Cause I'm not worried about what's coming up the next day. So that 15 minutes every day is a little bit of slowing down to speed up, which is a really common Agile trend incidentally that you want to slow down to speed up. It has long-term impacts instead of short-term impacts. Steve Rush: Love it, yeah. Jessica Katz: Yeah, so that's my first one. My second one is don't assume you're right. Just because you have a specific role. So, if you're, for example, I'm an Agile coach. I'm going to come into an organization and I want to come from deep curiosity, I can say things like, well, common practice in the Agile community is X and somebody could say, well, I don't think that kind of practice will work for here and I'll go, okay, well, let's have a discussion about what the common practice is trying to solve, what problem you're trying to solve and find a solution that better suits your needs. In a position of leadership, you need to do the same thing. I have an idea about how to solve this problem, but I want to leave the room open for other people's ideas. And sometimes that means in environments that have a high retribution culture. Sometimes that means not saying anything until other people have spoken. But in a low retribution culture where it's easy to trade ideas back and forth and up and down the hierarchy, then just leaving that open door and stay in curious to what other people have to say would be my second suggestion. Steve Rush: Cool. Jessica Katz: And my third suggestion is lift others up. This is the rising tides lift all ships kind of circumstance. In traditional hierarchical organizations. It's very common for leaders to put themselves forward and try and look good and doing things, always trying to hoard and do things so that they continue to promote. One, you're going to burn out at some point and two, it doesn't give the people you're supporting, the people that report to you. It doesn't give them room to grow. So, lift them up and help them shine. And you will shine as a result of it. It is another one of those. It feels counterintuitive to do, but it's the right way to scale yourself. Steve Rush: I love it. Often though, the most important things that we need to train ourselves to do differently feel counter-intuitive. And I love the whole, you know, 15 minutes or 30 minutes a day, getting yourself in order because ultimately you called it out. This is not about time management. Time management is kind of baloney, right? It doesn't exist, but what does exist is prioritization, love those hacks. The next part of the show, our listeners have become affectionately accustomed to hearing stories from our guests where they've had some adversity, things have maybe screwed up in the past. We call it Hack to Attack. But the key thing here is that we've learned from it. And it's now a force of good in our life and our work. What would be your Hack to Attack Jessica? Jessica Katz: So, I have been passed over for promotions. I have received bad performance reviews. I have been fired. All of those things have happened in my history and I was contemplating them. And I was like, what's the common theme really? That came out for me in those things. And the common theme is that I'm a really fast mover and a fast thinker and it is worth it for me to slow down and observe and listen to the systems I'm in to make sure I don't misstep or inadvertently cause harm where no harm needed to be. It does require a sort of deep self-management for me. So, you know emotional intelligence is you know, the factors of self-awareness, self-management, others awareness and others management. I would say the two that I was weak on was others' awareness and self-management. Really understanding the impact of my words and actions and staying around to clean it up. If I made a mistake, cleaning it if given the opportunity, right? Because if you do harm, the other person has to be willing to have you clean it. Steve Rush: Defiantly. Jessica Katz: That's kind of where my big learning has come in.Steve Rush: And thank you for being so candid. There'll be many people listening to this who suffer with a similar kind of philosophy. And it's just that kind of being self-aware and organized that can make a massive difference, so awesome stuff. The very last thing that we'd like to do is to give you a chance to have a bit of time travel now. So, you get to bump into Jessica when she was 21 and you get to give her some advice, what your advice going to be? Jessica Katz: Well, just to set the stage for your listeners. When I was 21, I hadn't yet figured out what I was going to do with myself. I chose not to go to college right away. And I was a single mom. And I was about a year out from moving to Nashville where I had no support system. And if I had a chance to do it over or had a chance to go back and talk to myself, one of the things I would say is take a breath and look at your support system. How are you going to have that support, that kind of support, no matter where you go? And a lot of what that takes is asking for help, even when you think you don't need it. It's still a hard thing for me to do, to ask for help. I'm better about it than I used to be. But man, if I could have gotten a hold of 21-year-old me and been willing to lean into that vulnerability, it could have been a huge shift in my life earlier. Steve Rush: If only we had time travelled, right? Jessica Katz: That’s right. Steve Rush: By then the world we're all different and we wouldn't have had the learning experiences we've had along the way. Jessica Katz: That's true. That's true. Steve Rush: So, what's next for you, Jessica? Jessica Katz: What's next for me? My primary client is a training organization. I do some subcontract training through them. So, I do have some public classes available. If anyone's interested, they can go to my website to find future classes and I need to buckle down and work on that book. I've been a bit stuck, but this conversation today may have gotten me unstuck. So, I just want to say thank you for that. Steve Rush: You're very welcome. We can unliberated your liberated elephant, right now.Jessica Katz: That's right. That's right. Get my elephant out of the room right now. Steve Rush: Awesome, and I know that when you've concluded your book, we'll get you back on the show. We'll talk about some of the experiences in there as well, and we'll make sure we help our listeners connect with you. In the meantime, what's the best place for them to, we can send them to your website and that's liberatedelephant.com. Jessica Katz: And if they want to follow me on LinkedIn, I do a bunch of posting there and it usually cross posts Twitter so they can follow me on Twitter. On Twitter I'm @ElephantTamer. Steve Rush: Love that. Jessica Katz: And on LinkedIn, you can find me as Jessica Kat. Steve Rush: Brilliant, we'll make sure all of those links to your websites, Twitter and LinkedIn are in our show notes as well. Jessica Katz: Wonderful, thank you so much. Steve Rush: Jessica, listen. It's been absolutely amazing chatting to you. I've thoroughly enjoyed the whole exploration of Agile and the change and how you coach that through with your clients. Just wanted to say, wish you every success with conclusion of your book and most importantly whatever you do next and thanks for being part of our tribe on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Jessica Katz: Great, thank you so much. Stay healthy. Steve Rush: Thank you, Jessica.  Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler there is @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker. 

Tab Pierce is the CEO of Caliber Security Partners and founder and CEO of Refiners, he’s also the author of  the book Upsurge, there are loads of hacks and learning in this episode including:The importance of asking yourself great questionsThe resilient steps in rebounding from wreckage to triumphHow to reinvent yourself after failureHow to become a healthy narcissistJoin our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Tab Pierce below:Caliber Security Partners - https://calibersecurity.comRefiners - https://www.refiners.ioTab on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tabpierce/The Book - UpsurgeTab on Twitter - https://twitter.com/TabPierce Full Transcript Below----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Our special guest on today's show is to Tab Pierce. He's a business turnaround leader and author of the book Upsurge: Wreckage to Triumph, Rebuilding Your Personal and Business Life. He's also the CEO of Caliber Security Partners and the CEO of Refiners.IO. Before we get a chance to speak with Tab, it's The Leadership Hacker News, The Leadership Hacker NewsSteve Rush: What does Funny AI mean for leaders, people skills. AI is getting better at making people laugh according to a team of academics, putting robots on track, to secure a key leadership attribute. So, in the news today, we explore how leaders should react. It's long been assumed that artificial intelligence has lagged when it comes to soft skills, but that's facing a challenge now from emerging generation of human-centric robots, according to a startling article from a team of academics. Published at the European business review, the piece provides leaders with a wake-up call, chipping away at the notion that AI still has a way to go before it can successfully adapt some of the human emotional reflexes that underpin interpersonal relationships and leadership. The research was led by Dr. Jamie Gloor who's a senior lecturer in Management at The University of Exeter Business School.The academic highlights, several AI robots that have pushed the frontiers of what was thought impossible to be possible and raise some laughs along the way, such as humanoid robots of fear, who cracked jokes on US late night tv. Robot stand-up comic called Data who responds intuitively to audience feedback. A German made irony bot that has been programmed to dish out sarcasm and a growing assortment of programs cooked up in the research labs that have been designed to serve up amusing, acronyms and song parodies and puns. This suggests that AI powered machines can indeed adapt and develop a sense of meaning, sensitivity and context that's necessary for skills like humor. With all this in mind, they point out that humor can be thought of as an extreme demonstration of whether robots have the social-emotional skills necessary for leadership. If robots can master humor, this suggests that they could be positioned to step into more human-like roles that require exemplary soft skills like leadership.So, for us flesh and blood leaders, what should we take away from this new research? The first thing I'd encourage us all to think about is new innovation and in insight. We should be paying attention to this stuff because we never know where it's going to lead. Secondly, we should embrace it and help understand where AI can really help businesses. Indeed, some of us might already think that our bosses might have less humor than some of the new bots that presenting themselves. Well, there's an opportunity for feedback there too. So that's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any interesting stories, insights, or information, please get in touch with us.Start of PodcastSteve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Tab Pierce. He's a CEO of Caliber Security Partners. He's also the founder and CEO of Refiners and author of Upsurge. Tab welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Tab Pierce: Thank You. I'm really excited to be here.Steve Rush: Me too. I'm delighted you're here. And you're all the way in Seattle today. Is it raining? folks are going to want to know.Tab Pierce: Well, the truth is, it was raining too much in Seattle. So, my wife and I hopped on a plane and went to Phoenix, Arizona. It's going to be about 80 to 90 todays, so we're not suffering too bad.Steve Rush: Awesome. That's really good news. Want to kick off by really getting to understand that the man behind the book and the businesses, tell us a bit about your backstory Tab of how you've arrived to run two firms, two businesses and put your pen to paper?Tab Pierce: Well, I always wonder where do I start? You know, I was born in Seattle. No, that takes too long… So, you know, it was 2010 when I founded Caliber Security Partners. And I started the company because I'd been in cybersecurity for many years since, since 1998. And I had helped a couple of companies, you know, reach a point of being acquired and I was faced with time to go get another job. And I kind of went, you know, I'm going to rinse and repeat and do this again. And I'm going to end up where I'm at now. I'm going to end up there later. It was time for me to decide, no, I want to start my own company. And so that was kind of the start of that. It wasn't my first company I started, but it was, the kind of the first real dive in full on company I would say. And you know, things went really, really well there. And for the first, I don't know, call it four or five years, revenue was great, things were great. Bottom fell out of it; things went South really bad. And you know, it was in the middle of that, that I started writing the book Upsurge. And, you know, since then, you know, the end of the store, well, not the end of the story, but the story where we're at now is things are successful. And you know, as you mentioned started another company called Refiners. So that's kind of the backstory in a cliff note version.Steve Rush: If you can give our listeners a bit of a sense of, you know, the kind of work that you do in the world of cybersecurity and so on and so forth, and then how that differs from the work you do with Refiners. Cause they're very different business models, aren’t they?Tab Pierce: Yeah, absolutely very different. So, security is, you know, people will say, how did you get into security? Like a lot of things, you know, you just stumble into it. You don't, you know, I didn't set on I’m going to be cybersecurity before it was even called cybersecurity. But what we do and my niche within that market is, is the surfaces side. So, you know, large companies, you know, fortune 500 companies, emerging technology businesses, and probably everybody in between, but business to business, you know, they'll turn to us to do things like testing of systems or applications or websites, and basically act as an ethical hacker to find out what vulnerabilities they have. So, we do a lot of that. We do a lot of, you know, the compliance, the risk, the privacy side of things as well, helping organizations become ready or that, which, you know, as you mentioned, is a lot different than Refiners.Refiners is a community of entrepreneurs, small business owners and individuals that, you know, kind of want to gravitate towards that. We're still in the fledgling building stage, but the idea of that is peers, helping peers grow as well as mentors that are there to guide them in dementors specific domain knowledge. It's interesting because you know what I've learned over time, doing two things is that I really liked security, but I love what I'm doing at Refiners. I love bringing people together. I love helping people out. And so, it's, you know, it's kind of a different, just two different flavours of being an entrepreneur.Steve Rush: And what was the defining moment for you that said Refiners is where I want to take my entrepreneurship in that direction. What was it that kind of key thing that said, this is what I want to do next?Tab Pierce: I guess the first thing is, I want to do them both, you know, I'll say I want to do it all, but that's a little too broad, but probably the key thing that started me into the direction of Refiners was all the trouble that we had at Caliber. And just having to go through the hell that we went through and just, you know, one day talking to somebody and, you know, I was always very open and transparent with what was going on inside the company, partly because I knew that it would help me manage things, but also, I really felt that it might help somebody else. And I think what really kind of drove me to be like, wow, that felt good. I liked doing that, was sitting down for lunch one day. And somebody had introduced me to another small business owner and I said, how's business? And he goes, it’s great, it's this, it's, this it's this. And he goes, how about for you? And I said, you know, we've been going through hell for years and I think we've got about another year. And I kind of, you know, I said, I won't go too deep into it, but you know, it's rough, but we're doing it. He did a 180 and went, can I be honest with you? Things aren’t great for me either. Because I say that because I have to put forward that. I said, totally get it, totally understand that. And we had just an open and frank discussion for the rest of the time we were together. And I kind of left feeling really good about that. That kind of started the slow pivot into.Steve Rush: Right.Tab Pierce: You know, I want to be able to, you know, ideally help people avoid what I went through altogether. And if they are experienced in it, get through it quicker and better than I did.Steve Rush: That’s really great a cause. And I think for those leaders listening to this today, Tab who may be also in that space of wanting to promote a public face of great strength and awesomeness. But deep down, when you peel the layers back, it's a really tough and a difficult period for them. It's almost really important to kind of let the demons out because in doing so, you can deal with the real issues rather than the band-aid that sometimes covers them, right?Tab Pierce: What's really interesting is, you know, we always think of, you know, and I used to always tell people, and I talk about this in the book about how, you know, people would say, man it's really great that, you know, you just went to battle and you covered it and you did it, and you know, you succeeded. And I say, I felt like a warrior dragging his sword to battle early on. I didn't have the strength to pick it up. And so often we have this mental image of this warrior with this just amazing, you know, Armor on. And it's, you know, it's just perfect and everything else. We never have the image of the warrior coming back after the fight, just alive and, you know, stumbling, but, you know, going back to clean up, rest up and go at it again another day, you know, that's a warrior. Warrior is somebody who fights hard, takes their knock and then comes back, beat up. Only to get ready and to go do it again.Steve Rush: Right, and the book Upsurge, when we first met, it struck me. You spoke with such rule of candid is almost a playbook for others now to learn from the lessons that you went through to end up being triumphant at one stage, but feeling at one stage, it was kind of almost game over. We'd love to get into understanding a little bit about the inspiration for that. And what was it that put the energy behind the pen to start putting things down?Tab Pierce: Yeah, I've never considered myself somebody that journals. When I was going through, early on I was going through, when I first found out just the depth of trouble, we were at Caliber, you know, $750,000 dollars in debt, 18 different individuals, government agencies, companies, we were deep in debt and I was emotionally in debt. Like probably way worse than that. I mean, I was depressed. I felt like a fraud. I let my family down. I can't believe I'm here. So stupid. I'm dumb. I'm, you know, whatever gave me the thought to think I could actually run a business like that. You know, all of those things. And I sat in a chair, this lazy boy chair with the TV set on. My wife next to me, like at the end of the day after work. And I would just stare at the TV set and I don't even watch TV. I wasn't watching it. I just was like trying to drowned out the noise in my head. She would talk to me, but I didn’t hear her. I mean, we'd sit next to each other. Wouldn't talk. That was just horrible. And you know, all these crazy thoughts went running through my head. And then one day (I think this went on for a couple of weeks), One day, I can't remember if it was a good hour or if it was a good day, but I just kind of, I felt like I was in the eye of the storm and I took out I will say I took out pen and paper. I took out my laptop and kind of pen a letter to myself and, you know, I called it, you know, I called it the poor wayfaring man of grief or something like that. And it’s funny because I read it since then. And, you know,It’s in the book, I put the letter in the book and I just went, oh my gosh, how fricking melodramatic was I? I almost didn't put it in the book because I was like that. It’s kind of hurts the person I am now to just read that because I'm like oh so melodramatic. It was so real. I mean, it was a plea, it was a beg for me, just try to get back to some normal.Steve Rush: But it was real feeling, right?Tab Pierce: Actually, I don't talk about this anywhere, but later on, I felt the same way and I did a video for myself and it was like, I was just like in a great mood, I was on fire. Things are going really well. And I knew they weren't going to stay that way, but I did that. And, you know, for the guy that wasn't going to be happy, it wasn't going to be in a good Mood. So, he could go back and watch that later and just kind of like, oh yeah, hey man, that's you, that's you man. You can, you know, you can get back to that. That’s the real you and I had, you know, I mean, I haven't watched it for a long time, but I did for quite a bit. But writing that kind of started me writing a little bit more and I wrote that, you know, the first chapter on thought and when I was done, I said chapter one and because I just thought it was funny. It was like, I think I just wrote a chapter in a book. I hadn't planned on writing a chapter. I wrote a chapter called burn baby burn, which is like really to try to motivate me to like, like just build this energy and you know, this fire and this, you know, and just try to share all of this stuff. And, it's interesting because I've had people read it now and they're like, hey, you don't think that's a little arrogant. Like you get to understand what it was when I wrote that. I mean, you know, I mean, it's like asking somebody, you know, do you think you overvalue air when they've gone down under the water for the second time and they're about ready to go down on the third? You think you overvalue air? No, not at that point in time. And so, I wrote that second chapter and I called it chapter two and I went, ah, I think I'm writing a book. And then that's what started the book right there. And so, the start of the book is me in the middle of that. And then as the book gradually goes on, it's me coming out of everything. And then at the end of the book, it's, you know, me out of all of that. So, you know, it’s kind of is a playbook, but I didn't set out to write it as a playbook, it just happen.Steve Rush: I remember when we spoke last, you were almost telling me that it was a way of you going through some almost personal reflections, some self-leadership in order for you to move forward. Is that a fair assessment?Tab Pierce: Yeah, it is. And you know, there were a lot of times that, you know, like take that chapter, you know, that I called burn baby burn. I mean, what I was writing wasn't necessarily what I was feeling. It's what I know I needed to feel. What I wanted to feel and what I was trying to direct myself to feel. But yeah, I mean, a lot of it was just trying to guide myself and build that up, as you know, as I went through it, I didn't sit there and go, you know, I'm going to go through this and by chapter 26, I'm going to be better. You know what I mean? I mean, I didn't, have that clarity when I started writing that book.Steve Rush: Sure.Tab Pierce: It was, you know, it was just a step by step. I mean, after a while I was like turned into more of a reality that I was going through, a journey and I was mapping it. But early on that wasn’t the case.Steve Rush: What struck a chord with me as you start to think about the evolution of not only writing the book, but you going through that from that place of debt and despair to being successful once more. Is that this is a real story of a real leadership experience. One that you can't take from text, it can only come from experience, right?Tab Pierce: Yeah, absolutely.Steve Rush: Let's get into a couple of those chapters Tab.Tab Pierce: Yeah.Steve Rush: Because there are some real things in there that struck a chord to me that I know our listeners would love to hear from you, but it will also help kind of understand some of that journey that you went on. The one chapter particular that kind of struck a chord with me was this whole principle of learning to ask yourself great questions.Tab Pierce: Yeah.Steve Rush: How did it work out that you weren't and what did you work out where the great questions?Tab Pierce: You kind of realized that maybe you didn't ask yourself great questions after the fact, right? I mean, rarely do we sit there and go wait a second. That wasn't the level of question I need to ask. That's where we should go. That's where we need to go. But what really got me realizing that I needed to do a better job of it? It was, you know, there were some things that if we would have stopped as a leadership team and said, we don't have to make a decision right now. So, if we don't have to make a decision right now, you know, what can we do to prepare ourselves to, you know, to make the right decisions? And that would have been our best question, right? Is to ask ourselves, what do we need to do to prepare ourselves and to allow ourselves to have that time. Instead, what we did is we said, you know, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this, let's go take out this loan. And it was a bad loan. And you know, it made things worse because what we would have done is, we would have looked and said, if we take out this loan, what actually gets paid? What actually gets done? As opposed to, if we take out this loan, then we won't feel that, you know, we didn't say this, but basically it was, if we take out this loan, we won't feel the way that we feel right now. It will buy us time.Steve Rush: Right.Tab Pierce: Which it did, it bought us time. But what it bought was time that we were going to ultimately reach a worse place than we would have been if we would have made the hard decisions early on. So, you know, there were things like, you know, we should have been asking ourselves in that situation, might've been, you know, what are the real issues that we're facing right now? And, you know, maybe what is it we really need? You know, things like that. Maybe saying, what happens if we choose to take out a loan? What's the good? What's the bad? What's the consequences of taking out that loan? What's the consequences of doing all of these things? And so, I spent a lot of time trying to analyse how I'm going to ask myself the best possible questions and always think, you know, if I can ask myself good questions, I can get great results. So, I think, you know, where I'm at right now? You know, am I looking for something that's strategic or tactical? What is it I want to accomplish? Am I looking at, you know, what's the end game? I always look at like, you know, kind of a five-point process. And that's like, what am I specifically facing? If what I do, is it going to push me to a logical need? That's, my goal. It got to be able to help you focus on the basics and things that are logical. And I have to always open my mind to all of the possibilities, right. That's the key one, because often we look and say, if I, you know, back to my swimming analogy and I mean, it's, you know, if you're drowning, maybe it's hard to do this, but if you look up and you're like, I'm going to grab that log. A better question might be, if I grab that log, am I going to find out that it's the tail of an alligator?Steve Rush: That's a good analogy.Tab Pierce: I mean, it's hard to do when you're drowning, but in a case like this, those are the things that we could have done, what could go, right? What go wrong if we make that decision? And ideally it creates, you know, for us, for me, it always creates more questions. This can lead to ideally greater answers. And then I always, usually will end it with, is this is what I decided to do. Is it the best possible outcome? And that may seem like a lot to go through and you don't have to go each one of them, but if you can train your brain to prepare to ask, like, what's a better question? You know, you know, what's a better question that I could be asking that's more helpful to me today or where I'm at now than any other questions. It would have saved us, you know, just to give you an example of what really happened for us. You know, everything came out when it all flushed out. Like I said, we were $750,000 dollars in debt. We would have been in a lot less debt. It would have been more painful for us if we hadn't taken out the loan, but it would have probably been, we would have been through it in about six months instead of almost three and a half years. So, you know, that's the question, you know, I mean, you know, in hindsight, you would want it to be easier at the front and harder, you know, for three and a half years, or do we want to bite that bullet of just sucking for eight months and having a bunch of people really mad at us and then be done with it? I know what I would say now, but at the time, you know, I was more focused on, you know, finding a band aid to stop the bleeding.Steve Rush: Right, and I guess what you've just described is self-coaching, it's kind of like the voice in our head that we talk to all the time, but it's easy to say, but like, you've also described it's much more tougher to do because it takes discipline to coach yourself, doesn't it?Tab Pierce: And there's one thing that we always have to remember when you're in a rough situation, you're emotional. And you're like, I got to figure this out. The truth is you don't have to figure it out today. Maybe you don't have to figure. I mean, you know, maybe that's the first question is, what happens if I don't make a decision today? What happens if I don't make a decision tomorrow? What happens if I don't make a decision this week? And because then it gives you time to really set back and dive into those good questions.Steve Rush: You've got a chapter in a book called reinventing yourself after failure. How do you go about doing that when things are tough and how do you go about reinvention at a time where perhaps you're cognitively not in the most effective place?Tab Pierce: It'd be really easy to say, just do this, this and this. Kind of interesting, you bring this up because I recently gave a seminar or I had a speaking engagement. One of the people came up to me afterwards and said, hey, I'm going through exactly what you're going through right now. And so, we've been talking about it. I'm living through this reinventing yourself. And, you know, I'd asked them this question and said, what did you see for yourself when this all started to go south? Because this guy, I mean, is your shoulders are rolled in, heads titled, eyes are droopy. And I'm like, dude, I've been there, man. Your head is too dang heavy to hold up normally. I mean, it's a weird feeling to think my head's too heavy, but I looked at this guy.I was like, you know, you're in a bad spot. So, what did you think of? What were you going to do? What was your vision? And he's like, ah, you know, and all of a sudden, he sits up and I was going to do, you know, he started getting hand gestures. I was going to do this and I was going to do this and this and this, all these things. And he's like, you know, he starts going over this and he goes, but, and as soon as he said, but, his tilt, shoulder rolling. And I stop. I don't want to hear anything else; you have to say. That's the first time I've seen you excited about anything. Is when you start talking about what your vision was, they said, is it still your vision? Yeah, it is.I'm just in, I'm like, no, no, no, I don't want to hear all the, just. If it is still your vision? Yeah, that's what we're going to work on. And the thing is, is that, you know, if we can see the picture of where we want to be, and we can hold onto that and we can live on that and we can build on that, you know, we can start to get a lot of the energy and we start to believe it, but we have to be okay with having hardship, right. We have to say, this thing is hard, right, and this painful, and I don't want to do it. And you know, what we have to do is we have to train ourselves that we're going to outlast everything that no matter what comes our way, we're going to outlast it.And that means that if, you know, if we're talking about, you know, looking at our, you know, for us, we looked at the business and said, you know, even though people were telling us, you know, filed bankruptcy and start over, I'll say we can fix it. This is still a good company. We just have to be smart, patient, resilient and move forward. And whether or not you look at your business and say, there's something still here. I just need to reset and settle in and be resilient and move forward. Or you look at it and say, you know what? I know I can something. And I know I'm strong and I know I can build something, but this thing, isn't it because it's not sustainable. It's not profitable. It's not whatever. And you know, we have to be okay to move towards risk.It always amazes me that when I look back at where I was or we were as a company, I was okay with taking risks when I thought things were good. But as soon as things went bad, I stopped taking risks.Steve Rush: That's interesting. Isn't it?Tab Pierce: Yeah, that's when we should have been more willing to take risks.Steve Rush: Right.Tab Pierce: Because at that point in time, I mean, at our lowest low, I mean, anybody who reads the book, I mean, I'm not taking money out of the company. I've put everything I've had financially into that company. I'm driving Uber to try to live, to make it, you know, to pay everybody, to pay people off, to sustain this business, to make it go. I mean, dude, I was at the bottom, right. And I felt like I couldn't take a risk. The truth is, is what did I have to lose? Was I going to lose my business? That thing was pretty much already gone, I was rebuilding it and we don't think like that. We don't think like, okay, I can manage to find the bottom. What am I risking?Steve Rush: Yeah.Tab Pierce: And, you know, I mean, we still have to be smart, but you know, we just have to, you know, be okay with moving towards risk. And, you know, we just have to, you know, if we're going to restart and just say, you know, either rebuilding a business or starting new anew business, you know, go back to asking yourself, good question. What is it I really want to do? I'm not a big fan of, do what you love and the money will follow. I've never been a big fanof that because not everything we love to do is going to be profitable with it. I'm not saying do anything, but I'm saying look for things that can work, it can be profitable. You can build it; you can sustain it and don't expect your life to be an overnight fix. You know, when we went through this and this is something I finally learned, like, no matter what I do, I can sit there and say, here's my business plan, or here's my plan to get out of debt. And I'm going to be really conservative, or maybe I'm going to be really, whatever it is. I'm going to be really conservative; I'm going to try to manage that. It's almost always going to take me three times longer than I think it's going to take. It just does, and I mean, you know, as I said that, I'm thinking Refiners.What we're looking at doing, you know, we're going to be holding an online conferenceIn February. And I'm like, things are going to probably take longer than I think they're going to take. Just that's the way life is for me. So, we got to be okay, that things are not going to happen overnight, things aren't going to get fixed overnight and that we need to be consistent and we need to be resilient. And at the same time, we really need to learn to try to enjoy the journey. And I didn't start enjoying the journey until we were way into it. And I finally started to realize, you know what? If we're going to do this, once I let that bot into my head that I think we're going to do it. That was the game changer. I really started to believe it.Steve Rush: And it's getting used to being okay with not being okay until it is.Tab Pierce: Exactly, and you know, and just realizing that one thing that we're not good at as humans is realizing the prize at the end of it. You know, the prize at the end of it is that we're a different person and we're much better, and we're much stronger, which can lead to a host of other phenomenal things. But we don't see that. We just see the pain and the anguish, and then we beat ourselves up, but don't look at it and go, you know what I'm done with this. I'm going to stand on top of that mountain and it's going to be glorious. And this is going to be the win. These are the things I'm going to experience. We don't allow the ourselves to do that.Steve Rush: There is one thing that you finish off the book with, which is when I read it, it was kind of, I struggled with the concept and I'd love you to explore it. It's this whole principle of becoming a healthy narcissist. Tell me a little bit about that?Tab Pierce: You know, it's interesting because out of everything that I wrote, that is the one I get the most. Like, I don't want to say like flack, like I, I do get a little bit, you know, I've had people come to me and say, I lived with a narcissist and, you know, there's no such thing as healthy narcissist. I mean, there only one out of every 35,000 people on the planet. That's a narcissist, but everybody knows a narcissist. So, I think one is it would help us really know what that is, but I get that people don't like the term, but I didn't coin the term healthy narcissist. I'm not that clever. But the idea was, I was going through this, I felt horrible about myself. I did not like who I was. I was verbally abusive to myself. I mean, if, you know, if it was a marriage I would have been, you know, that abusive to my wife, she would have left me. I mean, I just was not a good person to myself. I mean, I constantly, you know, the words I chose to say to myself were bad. Once I stopped doing that, once I started to be gentle, be nice, be kind, be forgiving of myself. Once I started to do that, and I started to become healthy, I started to become a better person. By the time we came out of this, and it was June 18, 2019 just last year that we paid our last debt. And it was just like this phenomenal feeling of like, wow, we did it, we actually did it. And all the way up to the end, it was a battle. We were paying huge amounts of money. And it was a struggle, like nothing, but we handled it. And then, you know, as I came out of it and I started thinking about it, I was like, man, that was pretty awesome. I did a great thing. I did a phenomenal thing. I'm much better at these things than I thought I was. And I started to become really healthy in how I viewed myself. As an example, I can't think of anything that can come my way, that I'm not going to be able to handle because I handled the worst possible thing, I've experienced in 56 years, and it was brutal. So, I think, you know, I can handle anything. So that's the narcissist side of it. Feel good about who I am.The healthy part of it is along the way. You know, I want to help everybody, you know, I think everybody should feel the way that I feel. I think everybody should feel phenomenal about their life and that the healthy narcissist side of somebody is, you know, I'm going to do everything I possibly can to help somebody help themselves, and that's the key, right. They got to help themselves.Steve Rush: Yeah.Tab Pierce: But that's what the healthy side of it is. It's like, you look back and you're like, I feel great about who I am. I feel pronominal who I am. And I want everybody to feel this way. Sometimes, you know, I've had people like, read that. They're like, I don't like that, but did you read the chapter yet? No, go read the chapter, then come back and tell me, you know, then they usually come back and say, I think you should have titled it something else. Okay, I'll give you that. But what about the content? They're like, oh, I agree with that, awesome. It's really, how do we go about helping each other because that's the key of life.Steve Rush: Right.Tab Pierce: And that's why, you know, when I look at Refiners, and, you know, Refiners, it's not a for profit, you know, we're a business, but our goal is to help people, you know, help themselves, I will give them a place to help other people and to grow and to be part of a big community and all of that. And it's all of its bonds because, you know, if I would have had deeper mentors, if I would've had people that were there for me along the way, I wouldn't have experienced a lot of the things I experienced. One of the things, there's a gentleman that I've gotten to know afterwards, I'll telling him the story. He goes, man. I wish I would have known you when you were going through this, because I could have helped you do this, this and this. And it would have eased your burden and wait, what? That was actually a possibility? I said I had no idea. And so that's why Refiners came about really is because I'm like, we got to bring good people together and give them good member or good mentors in specific domains. So, people can, you know, solve these problems as best they can before they become real big problem.Steve Rush: And that's why you're on this show to be fair Tab. Is that kind of, how do we get that learning that you've got? And we can share that with our wider audience. So, if they're bumping into the same challenges, the same issues. They can learn from you. And of course, this leads me to the next part of our show, where I get to tap into your leadership mind. First place I'd like to go would be to explore your top three leadership hacks?Tab Pierce: One of the first ones is be grateful. Gratitude has just this amazing way of making self, more aware of what's going on. And you know, my wife and I would always like, we play this gratitude game. Like, we'll ask each other, hey, what's your frequency? And we'd go off this 1-12 to 10, okay, good. You know, it's an 8, oh no. Why is it 8? Okay, well, what are you grateful for? And it's this gratitude, gratitude just really kind of helps you set the stage. You know, that you're good, right. And that you're okay. And that you've got a lot to be thankful for. You know, another thing is, is that, you know, meditate, you know, meditate daily. I used to be horrible at it. I used to, oh, you know, in the book I talk about how I'd meditate for 10 minutes in the first, like seven of it was like putting a toddler to bed that wasn't tired. I've gotten better at it over time, but meditation really helped. The other thing is, you know, is read, study, learn, you know, start to improve the way you think. And you know, it's interesting because I'm in the process, you know, a book I would recommend to anybody that's out there is, and you probably have heard about, it's a very popular book called Psycho-Cybernetics by Matthew Maltz. And he wrote it, I think in 1960. But the book talks about how you think about yourself, the vision that you have for yourself, thinking upon the things that you want to be. Those are kind of the quick three ones. All of it really comes down to your mindset, keeping your mind straight.Steve Rush: Awesome, yeah. And learning, which is that kind of last bit is, on the pins, doesn't it? You've got continuous learning of ourselves means that we're continually evolving our thinking and our behaviours as well. Next part of the show we want to get to Tab is what we call Hack to Attack. So, this is pretty straightforward. And I think for you, you may have already covered this, but there could be something else. This is time where something has gone, particularly not well for you. Maybe that we've screwed up. But as a result, directly of that, we have used that in our life and our work as a positive. Now what you've just described almost is that kind of whole Hack to Attack Journey. But is there anything else that comes to mind? Tab Pierce: There is a couple of things that I would tell people, especially if they're in a situation where they're feeling down and they feel like they've let people down or that, you know, like for us, it was this massive amount of debt, you know, is to realize that in our life, there is the lead actor and that's ourselves, you know, we're always going to be the lead actor. Then we're going to have supporting actors, which is a spouse or significant other, children, parents, they're the supporting actors in your life. And then there's all these bid actors. Those people that are only going to be in a scene of your life for a short period of time, and that you just want to give the bid actors enough time out of your life. You don't want to give them too much. You just want to give them what you need to satisfy, what they need. And to try to make it a good experience for both of you. And as an example, you know, we had this hard money lender and the guy was fricking ruthless, just brutal. And, you know, I gave him all this emotional energy and all this just thought, and I mean was constantly thinking, here comes the date, here comes this, he's going to uppercase me to death again. And he's going to do this and that. And then when we wrote our, you know, when we paid the last one, he went away, you know, not surprisingly. He got his money. And guess what? That was the last one we paid, you know, June 18th of 2019. I haven't heard from him since.Steve Rush: Yeah.Tab Pierce: Pretty sure I'll never hear from him again. So, the Hack to Attack is don't give people any more of your energy than you need to give to solve whatever that issue with, but don't overdo it.Steve Rush: That’s really neat. And the last bit we want to do is take you on a bit of time travel now. So, you get to bump into Tab at 21 and you get a chance to give them some advice. What would your advice be?Tab Pierce: So, can I change that question just a little bit?Steve Rush: Yeah, go for it. How would you like to change it?Tab Pierce: This goes to, you know, how I like to consider, like how can I really benefit myself today, right? Because telling the 21-year-old Tab, you know, how I will change it? The 76-year-old Tab showed up today to talk to the 56-year-old Tab who I am, what would he say to you? Because now I'm like, oh, I could use that because I'm 56.Steve Rush: I like that.Tab Pierce: What that person would say to me is don't break. Don't tap the brake, keep your foot on the accelerator. Yeah, you're 56. You've got a lot of life to live. You're just now starting to understand the things that you need to do to be a success. Don't let up. Don't think about retirement. Don't think about, are you too old? Don't think of it. That it's a young man's game because now I'm 76 years old and it's still not a young man's game. So be prepared to continue going forward. Don't let up, stay in your lane, focus on the things that you need to do and do those. So that's what the 76-year-old would tell the 56-year-old.Steve Rush: Great reframe, love it. So, as we've been chatting, Tab, people have been listening to your story, been thinking about their own journeys that they're taking. If they wanted to get a hold of a copy of your book, and they'd learn a little bit more about what you're doing with both of the firms you work with. So, Caliber Security and indeed Refiners, where's the best place we can send them when we are done?Tab Pierce: If they want to get the book, there's a few things. One, they can email me at tab@refiners.io, and I'll give them a free PDF version of the book. If they would prefer to have it as a Kindle or a hard copy book, they can get that off Amazon. If they want to listen to the audible version, Audible. I guess that’s pretty simple, but if they want to, you know, they want to check out, you know, more of what I do on a personal side, just you know, they can go to tabpierce.com, learn more about Refiners at refiners.io and Caliber Security Partners at calibersecurity.com.Steve Rush: Awesome. We'll put those links in the show notes as well, Tab. So, people have them on hand. So, from my perspective, I just wanted to say, thank you. You've been a real inspiration to listen to that whole kind of journey. And I know that you're coming out the other end now. And what I love particularly is it, you're seeing this as an opportunity to start again. And I particularly love that reframe of what would the 76 Tab say to you. And that tells me that, you know, there's loads more to come from you. So, I look forward to reconnecting with you and working with you in the future too. And on behalf of our listeners Tab, thank you for joining The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Tab Pierce: Hey, thank you. This was phenomenal. I loved it.Steve Rush: Awesome, thanks Tab Closing Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handle their is @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker. 

Elke Edwards is the founder and creative director of the pioneering leadership development company Ivy House, she is the author of Extraordinary: How to Lead a Bigger, Braver, More Meaningful Life. In this episode you can explore:The extraordinary skills you need to unlock a bigger, braver and more meaningful lifeHow an epiphany with a client changed her life and workWhy you can’t be an extraordinary leader without an extraordinary lifeThe importance of taking 100% ownership for your behaviourPlus load more hacks!Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Elke Edwards below:Ivy House Website - https://www.ivyhouse.co.ukElke on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elkeedwards/The Book “Extraordinary”Elke on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ElkeEdwardsIH Full Transcript Below ----more---- Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Joining me on the show today is Elke Edwards. She's the founder and creative director, the pioneering leadership development company, Ivy House. She's also the author of her book Extraordinary, but before we get a chance to speak with Elke, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: We would all agree that innovation is a key part of any leaders core tenants these days, but imagine trash cans or bins as we call it in UK, that could sort out the recycling themselves or alert the local council when they are ready to be collected. Well, mathematician, Dr. Hannah Fry said that smart bins might sound like science fiction, but they're now just one of the weird and wonderful new technologies that is explored by herself and her new co-presenter Suzi Ruffle in their new podcast on 5G power tech called Whatever Next. In two new episodes, Hannah and Suzi explore how 5G is changing the way we do our jobs and unwind at home. With technologies such as hologram style, 3D calls, smart trash cans, or bins, and even smart toilets. It's a version of the future we can really get behind Hannah, a smart city where it bin chases, a rubbish truck down the street. Many of the technologies that Hannah and Suzi counter are already changing people's lives right now. In their home episode, Hannah and Suzi speak to locals in Orkney, islands just North of Scotland, where a 5G network has replaced wide internet and bought films, music, and social media to entertainment, staff locals. Faster connectivity has had a massive impact said Suzi, apparently the BBC Asian network is one of the most popular stations now on the Island of Orkney. New volume metric images and also video can be used using 5G to bring 3D models to life, for hologram-like 3D calls. Suzi said there are so many benefits of hologram, call. You can walk around a picture. You can see it from any angle. You actually feel like you're in the room with that person or that product. The technology can be used to bring 3D models of houses to life, Suzi explains, or to show off the shapes of proteins. It can help brainy people do crazy jobs, she said. So, my leadership thought of the day is, as leaders how open is your mindset to new innovation? and what often appears to be wacky ideas at the outset, an open mindset allows us to explore the unthinkable, unlock potential in people, systems and processes. But pay attention to the voice in your head; the one that might say these ideas are trash, see what I did there? Well, it could bring our bias and our worldview right to the fore and close down new opportunities and it could hold us back. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, information or stories you want our listeners to hear, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Elke Edwards. She is the founder and creative director of the pioneering leadership development company Ivy House. She is also the author of Extraordinary: How to Lead a Bigger, Braver, More Meaningful Life. Elke welcome to the Leadership Hacker Podcast.Elke Edwards: Thank you very much.Steve Rush: Delighted that we have the opportunity to get inside some of the things that are extraordinary and why they are maybe for some, but maybe not for others. But before we do that, perhaps you can give our listeners just a little bit of a backstory as to how you've arrived at leading the business you are in now and what you're doing right now?Elke Edwards: So, I'll start if I may, with what I'm doing right now, because that'll give you a bit of insight into how I got here. Well, actually I don't run Ivy House. We have a CEO, I'm the founder of Ivy House and Ivy house is an organization that has a mission to put human development at the heart of how we educate people, whether that be in schools or in organizations. So, I spent my whole career working with leaders. So as a leadership developer, as an executive coach. We worked with about 40, over 40% of the FTSE 100; did it for about 20 years and worked all over the world. I think by the end of it, when I sold our last business, we were working in 37 different countries.And while I was doing that work, I think I had a bit of a realization. I had a realization; I think I had a realization. I had a realization that there are a set of skills and knowledge that literally make a game-changing difference to how your life turns out. And of course, you know, I was working with CEOs and their boards and their teams. And actually, it started to really bug me that this knowledge was only being given to people that had already in many ways, created some success in their lives. So that sort of, I got that bee in my bonnet. And as a result, ended up selling my last business and setting up Ivy House. And we're really now focused on emerging talent, future leaders, graduates, apprentices, but also, we have a program that works in schools as well. And so, I guess I'm really in my element, I found my purpose.Steve Rush: So, what was the initial kind of bug for you? How did you end up in the career you're in now? Where did it start?Elke Edwards: I had the most unplanned career known to man. I did a degree in media and communication and by default I ended up interviewing a marketing director of Laura Ashley, which back in the eighties was super cool by the way. And so, she offered me a job on graduate placement. So, I ended up becoming a graduate trainee at Laura Ashley. Supposed to be a two-year program. I come from a family of sort of self-employed people. I'd always worked within the family business. So, they put me on the floor in that Cardiff branch. After the first two weeks, I'd sold more store cards than the whole company put together.Steve Rush: Wow.Elke Edwards: So, I got, well, it's quite simple, really. You just ask people and tell them the benefits and they say, yeah. But I got a call from the CEO who told me this news and said, you know, you've done this incredible thing. I'd like you to go on the road basically and train every one of our stores, how to do what you've been doing. So, there I was 21. I was literally, I think almost the youngest person in the store writing my first sales training program, which really no idea other than what I actually did myself and set off on the road which I did for about a month. And then when I came back, it was my ninth week. They gave me my own store to run. And these are just my sort of sales, but, you know, the store was 93rd in the country. And after three months it was number one. So, but I'm not joking. I really was just doing what came naturally in ask customers, help customers find out what they need, you know, change the window every few days, so it doesn't get boring, that kind of thing. And then to be honest, I went on a really higgledy-piggledy journey through Ad sales, through recruitment, where I really learned about people and then ended up running a call centre for a travel business that went spectacularly broke and was on the nine o'clock news, so really higgledy-piggledy journey, but what was always within it was leading people, managing people, having targets, understanding what has to happen. And eventually, as luck might have it, I got offered a job with a consultancy in London called the L&R Group. So, a guest really taught me my trade. They taught me to put, I didn't know, I guess, into some form what I'd been doing naturally to date. So, I became a consultant to organizations that were looking to improve their performance. Then I got headhunted by Ogilvy and work there, and eventually, we set up Blue Sky, which was a company that we run for 20 odd years.Steve Rush: And award-winning company as well.Elke Edwards: Actually, we won 43 awards in the last 10 years. In the last 10 years of me being there actually.Steve Rush: Amazing.Elke Edwards: And I think our closest competitor had six awards, so we're quite proud of that.Steve Rush: So, what do you put that down to?Elke Edwards: Bloody hard work. Am I ok to swear.Steve Rush: Of course.Elke Edwards: Actually, I've never been asked that actually, lots of things. We recruited an incredible team. We were very, very blunt and honest with our customers. So, we took on our customer's problems as our own. So, for clients that, you know, one of my famous calls. I got a call from Sky once on a Friday night, the marketing director at Sky had been an old client of ours at American Express.And he really just arrived at Sky and he went. We are launching digital in two weeks. And nobody in this building knows what it is. And we have 3000 people in call centres that need to be able to sell it in two weeks’ time. And literally, you know, I turned the car around, went straight back to the office, called everybody in. And over that weekend, you know, we created a program for him that we had 30 people on site by the Tuesday delivering.Steve Rush: Awesome.Elke Edwards: So, I think we were just, we didn't, you know, we didn't have big company mentality. We just thought certain things were always doable and we worked really hard to get them done. We were also really results orientated. Like if it wasn't going to work, if it wasn't going to move the needle, if it wasn't going to improve engagement or improve sales or customer experience, then we didn't do it.Steve Rush: And that's really important, isn't it? I find in the conversations I have with my clients, there almost seems to be a little bit of shyness around being so results-focused, but actually, it's what drives everything as a result. Right?Elke Edwards: Yeah, and it doesn't matter what the results are, but you know, it could be improved engagement or it could be, you know, less, more customer attention or whatever it is. But I think as a nation in Britain, we certainly around sales, you know, people don't like to say they're in sales, so there's a shyness. But I always say to people certainly in the businesses I ever run is, if we don't sell, quite frankly, we don't have a business. You know, I think we have to get over this idea of results. But what I do think we've often got wrong is measuring things in too narrow away. So, I think we, as businesses, we need to look far broader to understand, you know, if for example, your staff retention is really bad. That is going to cause you massive problems very, very quickly. So just measuring the sales performance or the customer retention, that's not going to be okay. We have to take a holistic look to what we measure.Steve Rush: Totally agree.Elke Edwards: And then we have to hold people accountable to those results.Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely so. So, you just had published. Your book Extraordinary and it's how to lead a bigger braver, more meaningful life. And I just wanted to say two things, firstly, it was a brilliant read. It was really well-constructed and I loved the flow. That's the first thing, but also congratulations because it's had some fantastic early reviews and it had some real great traction.Elke Edwards: Thank you, thank you.Steve Rush: There was one thing in the book that I read that was almost the epiphany for you, sounded like the call to action for you to put pen to paper, which was when you were having a coaching conversation with one of your clients, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about that?Elke Edwards: So, part of my role at Blue Sky was I would coach CEOs and their teams and I was with a client, a really lovely client. About 20 minutes into his session, he looked at me and he said, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, fine, why? And he said, because you're crying. Unknown to me, I literally have tears streaming down my face and he's like, what's wrong? And I said, I can't do this anymore. And he just came out and trust me, you know, when clients are paying you a vast sum of money to coach them, that's not the best answer. And he said, what do mean you really can't do this? In fact, I think his words were. What do you mean? You chucking me? And I said, I just, I can't do this anymore. It's too much like hard work. I think what was becoming really apparent to me in that moment was that you just can't help people or develop people unless they're ready to be developed.It just became like pushing something up a hill or whatever that phrase is, I don’t know. And he literally looked at me and he said, are you saying that I'm, you know, I'm hard work? And I said, well, yes you are. Because actually all you're doing all the time is defending your current behaviour. And actually, if we're going to create change, you're going to have to change your behaviour. And if you're going to change your behaviour, we have to look at your mindset. So, if you're not prepared to do that work, set me free. I've got other things I could be doing, and he looked at me and he said, okay, well, if this is the last session we're going to have. What I want from you is to tell me what needs to change? What am I not doing? And it was in that conversation that I actually started to frame the skills and knowledge that are in the book. That I started to articulate what I believed or what I'd experienced in all of my work to make a game-changing difference to how people's lives turned out. And that conversation then went on for hours. And we sat there for hours, he counselled his meetings and in fact, I still have the pad of paper that I was mapping out on.Steve Rush: Amazing.Elke Edwards: Yeah, that was it. That was a real epiphany, and I went back to the office. It's really interesting. I went back to the office and I said to the team. We need to change our focus. We're getting to them too late. We need to start sooner, and they looked at me and he went, oh God, you've been going on about that for 10 years. And I said, have I? Have I really? I literally had no idea. And I guess that was the beginning of the end of that, the beginning of this business.Steve Rush: So, within the book, you've got seven extraordinary skills and they're wrapped behind the reason why and the reason why not. And the irony, I guess, of what you've just shared is perhaps the extraordinary skill number one is the pre-epiphanies if you like. The 10 years that you've been unconsciously sharing the list because it happened at the time before, hadn’t it?Elke Edwards: Yes.Steve Rush: Tell us a bit about that.Elke Edwards: Very personal situation for me. So, it's probably worth me just explaining what I mean by core strength. So, within the book, we look at people as if they have a blueprint. So, we all have our own vision, our own purpose, our own driving forces, our own value system. And when we understand these things about ourselves, when we understand our own personal blueprint, it actually means that we're able to live and create the life that we were meant to live. Now, in my experience, the majority of people don't actually know this blueprint about themselves. So, they might well feel out of balance in life, but they can't really nail exactly why it is. So, we take on our programs, we take people on a journey to understand what their personal blueprint was. For me personally, before I knew this myself, I was in a marriage with a very lovely man.We had all everything. You know, I had a very successful business. We had a beautiful house. We had two gorgeous girls. You know, we sort of looked like the golden couple. But within me, literally deep within me, there was just a feeling that I wasn't living my right life. And I did everything. In fact, I left the business for a while to see if that was the problem. I tried to move this house. I was thinking maybe we'll just move to a different area. Maybe I'm with the wrong kind of people. And eventually, I realized that actually, I was in the wrong relationship. And even though it tick so many boxes on the outside, on the inside, it really didn't work. So, I had to, I didn't have to, but I chose to pick up my two girls, leave the gorgeous family house, move into a rental property. And literally other than my girls, start my whole life again and start with a blank sheet of paper and go, okay, well, how do I want to spend my days? How do I want to spend my minutes and hours? You know, what work really matters to me. And you know, what kind of relationship will really enable me to thrive and bring joy to my life and what kind of friends and all of these questions. And that's exactly what I didSteve Rush: Incredibly courageous act; and one where your extraordinary skills, if you like, that, you've now mapped into your book have probably been as a result of that learning. Would that be kind of a fair assumption?Elke Edwards: I love that you've asked that question. And the reason I love it is what drives me mad about leadership development is people sort of think leadership development is something from outside of them.Steve Rush: Right.Elke Edwards: You know, like leadership is outside of us where you'll notice the Ivy House strap line is extraordinary leaders, extraordinary lives. Those two things sit together. So, understanding who we are and therefore what kind of life we were meant to lead and what kind of leader we were meant to become. So, another big thing I've got is that, you know, leadership comes in all shapes and sizes. I say, I've set up three companies. I've never been the CEO of one of them because I'd be a rubbish CEO. So, within my blueprint is to be a creative director to be the voice of the business, to be the thought leader. And within my life is to have a certain kind of relationship, a certain kind of family. And actually, those two things are so intrinsically linked.Steve Rush: Aren’t they?Elke Edwards: I mean, they're one, I'm one person and I live different parts of my life. So yeah, you're completely right that the skills throughout the book apply to people's outside of work lives and inside of work lives. But I think the two things are the same.Steve Rush: And I love you've called that out. It's been a real bugbear of mine for a number of years where people have often used the phrase /analogy, “You need to bring your whole self to work”. You need to bring what you do at home to work, you are that one person and how you behave and work is a complete carbon copy of how you behave at home. You just might push and pull some of those behaviours in different directions, but the core you is you.Elke Edwards: Well, it should be, it should be, it should be the same, but this is really interesting because on the program we often ask people to look at their behaviours. So, I always say, imagine people that you live with and I'm going to go into your house, you're not there. And I'm going to say, give me the top three or five behaviours that you see from this person every day and consistently, and then I'll do the same at work and what comes out, which is people go, oh, I choose my best behaviour at work. And I often don't choose my best behaviour at home. But the other thing that comes out all the time is people saying, you know, I'm living two life.Steve Rush: Yeah.Elke Edwards: Well, you are not. You're living one life. And they go, no, no, one, I'm one person in work and I'm one person at home. No, no. The question is, is what behaviour are you choosing in those two environments? It takes them a while to get it. When they finally get it, the massive relief that comes over them. Is that, oh. I can just be me.Steve Rush: It's also really energy-zapping, isn't it?Elke Edwards: Yeah.Steve Rush: So, if you're pushing behaviours that are not authentic, then that's really going to take its toll on you physically as well as mentally.Elke Edwards: Yeah, although authentic behaviour is a really interesting, where are okay to go off of in a tantrum on this.Steve Rush: Yeah, let’s do it.Elke Edwards: Authentic behaviour is a fascinating thing because I really believe that behaviour is a choice. Authentic behaviour is a really interesting thing because people will say to me, well, look, I'm an angry person or I'm an emotional person, or I'm a you know, a shy person. Actually, our behaviour is driven by our thinking and the thinking we hang out with, we have a choice over. So, people that have stories about the kind of person they are actually have missed the piece that actually their behaviour is driven by their thinking ultimately, and they get a choice about which thinking they hang out with. So, if I want to choose kind of behaviour, I get that choice. It's not okay for me to just go, oh, well, I'm just not a very kind person. The real sentences is, I am consistently choosing not to be kind. I'm consistently choosing not kind behaviour. Does that make sense?Steve Rush: A hundred per cent makes sense. And can we go another level deeper?Elke Edwards: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love to.Steve Rush: So, if we're hanging out with the thinking that informs our behaviour, well, what informs our thinking is actually our mindset. So, it starts with our mindset, right?Elke Edwards: Yeah, and what makes up our mindset, there's a whole host of other things around our beliefs system.Steve Rush: Our value, belief system.Elke Edwards: All of that stuff. Yeah, completely.Steve Rush: But it is the one thing, the one thing that we have 100% control over, which is ironically your extraordinary skill number two, right?Elke Edwards: A hundred per cent ownership. Absolutely, yeah. A hundred per cent ownership is, aren’t you going to take 100% ownership for the behaviour I bring to every situation, every single situation? So, it started to shout at me.Steve Rush: Right.Elke Edwards: I'm going to take 100% ownership for the behaviour I choose. If Boris Johnson said, we will have to go into lockdown, I'm going to choose 100% behaviour. I'm going to take 100% ownership for the behaviour I choose in response to that event. And what's fascinating is though people get that intellectually. I would say 90% of the population live in a place where they are blaming things outside of them and people outside of them for how they're feeling and how they're behaving on a daily basis. So, they're blaming the bosses, giving them too much work, or they're blaming the fact that they can't go out to the pub on a Friday night because we're in lockdown. And they're saying, well, I'm feeling rubbish because of that. And that, of course, ultimately isn't true.Steve Rush: Yeah, a hundred per cent subscribed to that.Elke Edwards: People don't like that though. People don't like that.Steve Rush: It's because it turns the lens on the one person that's in control. And we don't like often to face into some of those really tough thoughts and those tough decisions that we might need to make because it comes with a consequence and it could be positive and it could be averse. But our brain's job is to keep us safe. Isn't it? And therefore, when we challenge the status quo, it's going to give us a wobble in one direction, but it's the brave that carry that forward.Elke Edwards: A hundred per cent agree with you.Steve Rush: So, if anybody's read any of the work I've done in the past and in my book, they'll know that I love equations. And you've got one in your book as well, which is event plus behaviour equals results, which is exactly what you just talked to. Isn't it?Elke Edwards: Exactly that. The theory behind it, so event plus behaviour equals result. The theory behind it, not even the theory, but the thinking behind it is that, you know, the majority of events that happen to us, we can't control. It's raining, our buses late. You know, we get put into lockdown, but the behaviour we choose in response to that event is 100% in our control. And it's the equation, the summary. The event, plus behaviour. that's going to drive the results. And that affects literally every few minutes of your life. I mean, minute by minute, we're making decisions about how we're going to respond to every event, minute by minute.Steve Rush: Now, one of your extraordinary skills is courageous learner. That really prickled me because I love the whole principle of learning and lifelong learning. But there is something that is about being a courageous learner that is somewhat different. Maybe you can give us your view on that?Elke Edwards: So, learning is really interesting when we talk about learning, because most of us equate it to reading books, watching videos. Academic learning, which of course, where we start learning isn't in schools or, you know, it's where we sort of formally put a title on it. In schools and we're learning academic stuff. A courageous learner actually has the courage to recognize that their opinion is nearly their opinion and that other people have opinions too, and neither are or wrong or better than worse than the others. So, a courageous learner, number one has the ability to look to themselves to recognize that they have the courage. We talk about having the courage to look at the raw facts and understand that maybe the behaviour I chose yesterday when I was in a meeting, wasn't great. Therefore, I may want to apologize, but also has the courage to recognize that if you and I have a completely different opinion on something that I am able to shut up, the voice in my head that is ready to defend my opinion, ready to argue my, you know, stand up for what I believe to be right and recognize that you believe what you believe to be right too. And recognize that you have your opinion based on all the data that has informed your opinion over your lifetime, and just have the courage to, we call it sitting above the line to go into a meeting or to a conversation and go, wow, you have a completely different opinion to me, brilliant. Tell me, tell me what you think. Tell me why you think it, what data informed your decision and not with the motivation to prove you wrong, but with the motivation to go, wow, you've just added a whole load, more data to my thinking so that together we can resolve the problem.Now, what's interesting. I did talk to a massive global organization a couple of weeks ago, over a hundred top leaders. And this was the thing they were stumbling over most. Because culturally it's true for all of us, I think. We're brought up in an environment where we say stand up for what you believe in. Whereas actually, how about listen to what other people believe in. Consider other people's opinions and they really came back at me on this and eventually, they went, oh my goodness, we are stopping our learning because we don't listen. And I was like, yeah. My work here is done again. Yes, start listening and recognizing your opinion is just your opinion.Steve Rush: I observed this to be one of these leadership superpowers, really, because it's so academically simple to get your head around, but this behaviourally very difficult to apply. Folks just don't really get to grips with it. And I did some additional kind of research on this and there's an element of psychology called motivated reasoning. Whereas part of the learning, we're looking for ourselves to find evidence that suggests I'm right, or I'm finding through my learning evidence defined that another way is wrong. So rather than being in the service of just learning and being prepared to be wrong when consciously still have this battle that says, I'm right, I've got the evidence I'm confirming versus, ooh, that hypothesis could be completely different to what I thought. And therefore, I'm going to explore that.Elke Edwards: And I think what you've just outlined very beautifully by the way. But I think where you've just outlined is so habitual and so deeply buried within us. When we talk about being above the line of being open to learning and being curious about different. As you just said, get it intellectually. But actually, the minute they're put into a situation where people disagree with them or where they feel under pressure to come up with the answer, which is another massive problem with leaders, you know, they feel like they've got to resolve things and they've got to come up with the answers and they got to make all the recommendations. Actually, changing that habit of a lifetime, I think is harder than it sounds.Steve Rush: Yeah, I concur.Elke Edwards: I always give people the example that you're at home and you're arguing with your partner about where you want to go on holiday, but that would be a nice argument. You’re arguing with your partner, my argument with my husband is I want to go holiday to anywhere that will have me. And he's like, well just wait and see what happens, we will be safe. But you're arguing and he's saying, oh, we should do this. Now, I always say to people, are you actually listening to what the other person's saying? Or are you constructing your argument so that when they take a breath and you get the opportunities to speak again, but you are perfectly communicative and eloquent in what you say and pretty much 99% of the population put their hand up and go, yeah, I’m doing that. I'm not listening. I'm creating an argument so that I can speak well. And wow and win, when I get the opportunity to speak again, now, if we take that, which exists wholeheartedly in our organizations today, if we take that sort of attitude, then how are we ever going to learn?Steve Rush: Exactly right, now there are a number of extraordinary skills I wanted to get through, but probably not going to be able to dive into them all in the way that I'd ideally love, which is also a great call to action for those to get hold of this and explore it themselves. But the one that I do want to get into is this whole principle of intentional relationships. What was it that caused you to call this out as a theme?Elke Edwards: I think what caused me to call it act actually is two things. Firstly, the massive dysfunction that you see in business through relationships. So, you know, I was working with another CEO. Actually, you had two members on her team that she never spoke to unless they were in a meeting and only then when she could, you know, have to literally could not avoid it. And what became so abundantly clear is this level of dysfunction. I mean, that was an extreme example, but this level of dysfunction happened constantly in sort of microelements throughout organizations. And secondly with people's home relationships or family or friends or loving relationships. So very often when you coach people. Clearly, you know, I believe we a whole person and we bring everything to that coaching. What became really clear was people's inability to have decent, effective, meaningful conversations with the people they were in relationship with outside of work as well.So those two things brought it to my attention. I think where I ended up was giving people this idea that relationships are the thing that drive our happiness, as you would have seen the researchers as I have, but, you know, sorry, the thing that drives our happiness more than anything else in life is the quality of our relationships, but we leave them up to chance predominantly. So actually, why don't we become slightly more intentional about them and determine what is it that you and I want out of our relationships. So, as I said, I'm divorced and remarried. And when I got remarried, I took that really seriously and sat down with my husband and said, right separately, we both need to write what our independent vision for our lives are, but what our vision for our relationship is. And what's interesting is we're quite different people.He's far more traditional, far more safe, I guess, than I am. And actually, you know, freedom is one of my core values. So, you know, we had to really understand what individually we wanted and then together what we were creating. And once we understand what together we're creating, then we know what behaviours we can show up with to deliver the vision.And it plays out in work all the time. So, one of the things we teach people on the programs to do is to sit down with a boss and go, what does good look like for you? Oh, by the way, this is what good looks like for me and. So, what's on the outside of that and how do we deal with it when things go wrong? So, there's the vision piece, but there's also the piece around behaviour and conversation. So, I think one of the key skills, this is a passion of mine is this to be able to have effective conversations. And I believe we would cut the amount of time that we spend in work in half if we knew how to do that.Steve Rush: Hallelujah.Elke Edwards: And then meetings, endless meeting. Steve Rush: Yeah, you see it everywhere, don't you? people are speaking for the sake of speaking. There is a lack of direction and lack of purpose in the communication and the conversation. And as a result, we burn hours and hours and hours, right?Elke Edwards: Yeah, and then people then don't say, we call it naming the elephants in the room. So, then they'll go out and have, when we used to have, you know, coffee room conversations or water cooler conversations and the corridor conversations about what should it be talked about in the room. So, you know, actually teaching people the skill and we do this in schools as well, teaching people at a very, very simple framework of how to have an effective conversation. And it all starts by the way, with what your intent is, which takes us back to the courageous learner piece. So, if my intent for this conversation is to be right and win, then you know, actually the conversation isn't going to go so well, if my intent from the conversation is together to resolve this issue that we've identified, then we're going to have a very different kind of conversation.Steve Rush: That's awesome. And my intent from this conversation by the way, is to extract as much learning as I can from you, for our listeners in the time that we have together, which means now is the time in the show that I get to hack into your leadership mind and to start thinking about some, the tools and tips that have really served you well, that our listeners could also learn from. So, first place I like to go Elke is to ask you, what your top three leadership hacks are?Elke Edwards: I have never been asked this by the way, and I thought it was a really, really good question. So, I had to sit and properly think about it. Because of course, I would say seven, the seven skills. Actually, I went to a different level. So, the first is a skill in the book. My top leadership hack is play to your strengths and allow others to do the same. So, I mentioned earlier, you know, I've never been the CEO of the business, I found it, but I'm a good founder and I'm a good voice and I'm a good thought leader for business, but I am not a CEO.Steve Rush: Right.Elke Edwards: And what's interesting about leadership is so many people think that leadership is about being the CEO, being the Director or running the show. And that's just not true. That's just one form. That's just one shape that it comes in.Steve Rush: Right.Elke Edwards: It's just as important to have people that are brilliant at other things. So, find out what yours is and allow other people to do the same. Then my second one is, is that I believe wholeheartedly that people bring their best selves when they find meaning in their work. And we have to create businesses that are meaningful and help people find meaning within your organization. And the third is to take 100% ownership for how you personally show up as a leader. I can’t tell the number of leaders that I've worked with that believe it's okay and justified to behave like a stress ball or to, you know, be aggressive or passive-aggressive or avoidant in their situation and blaming everything else that's going around them for how they behave. The minute that we take ownership and voice that we're taking ownership. I make mistakes regularly, but I will always get on the phone and go, I'm sorry, I've got that wrong.Steve Rush: Right.Elke Edwards: Owning the impact we have. I believe that's what creates the kind of cultures people want to work with them.Steve Rush: Super advice. The next part of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is a time where things haven't gone so well, maybe at work or at home, but we may be even screwed up. But as a result of the situation or the experience, we've got some learning from that and it now serves us well in our life. What would be your Hack to Attack?Elke Edwards: My attack that happened to all business like everybody else was COVID. So, we we'd had an interesting time through Brexit. And March of this year, we had a number of programs that were full to the brim and were just about to launch when we went into lockdown and our programs were all face-to-face. People flew in from all over the world to do our programs and they were deep and emotional and they are deep, emotional, intense, and locked down happened in every single thing on our books literally got cancelled or postponed multiple times. And you know, it was a moment. In fact, I was in the pub just before locked down, happened with some brilliant friends of mine. And they said to me, you have to take your programs virtual, or you have to shut your business down. And I was like, you don't understand what we do. It's so deep. It goes to people's core. And then they come out full strength. So, you don't understand, we can't do that virtually. And they said, we'll shut it down then, it's just not going to work. And I had rather sleepless that night. And I woke up the next morning and I called our CEO and I said, we have to go virtual. And I'll put my hands up and say, we weren't in any way technical experts. You know, we always about the relationship and looking people in the eye and hugging is an Ivy House thing. And we had a conversation later that day. And within days, our team were refocused and set, and the question of product director, Clare Mitchell, who's an absolute stone. Nobody coached approach her please, she's brilliant. Said to me, this is not about how can we do what we do virtually, this is about how we can become the best in the market. The very, very best, and be truly brilliant at developing people virtually. And they just set themselves the target of that. And literally, I didn't know this, you can't take a face-to-face program and put it on a virtual platform. You have to rewrite the whole thing. And our programs are very long and very intense and not all of them. We have no shorter programs. So actually, what I would say is let's say the world went back to normal tomorrow. What I know is that our programs are now even better, we had a 96% NPS face-to-face, which we were incredibly proud of them, very protective of, we really worked hard for that. And it's now running at 97%.Steve Rush: Awesome.Elke Edwards: On our virtual programs. So, we'll never go back to a hundred per cent face-to-face unless a client particularly wants that because of the nature of people having to leave their families and, you know, get the kids cared for and all of that stuff, we think we'll end up doing blended programs. So, the people get the best of both worlds.Steve Rush: Yeah, and you've got the core foundations to do both now.Elke Edwards: We have, and yeah. And the other thing that's happened is we manage because we weren't taking expensive venues and people weren't traveling all over the world is, we've managed to cut the price of the programs. So, all of a sudden client that were ruled out because of price you know, are coming go, oh no, no, that makes sense, we'll have that. We'll do that. And we've also created a shorter program as well, which allows them to put it across their whole talent base and all of that creativity and intervention and upskilling came because of what I thought was one of the worst crisis that has ever hit me in my professional career.Steve Rush: Super lesson. Thank you ever so much for sharing. I’m really grateful for that.Elke Edwards: No problem.Steve Rush: The last thing that we want to do is hindsight being a wonderful gift, give you the opportunity to bump into yourself when you were 21 and give Elke some advice. What would your advice be to Elke at 21?Elke Edwards: I' got three pieces of advice. If that's all right, the first is pay real attention to what you're good at. But more importantly, what you love doing. I was one of those people that was quite good at most things that I turned my hand to, and that meant I spent years doing jobs that weren't quite right for me. So, there's a cross section between what we're talented at and what we love. My first advice at 21 is notice where that happens, where your passions and your strengths meet, and then follow a career path in that direction. I still would have still ended up here, but I'd have ended up here much quicker.The second thing is don't overthink things. I believe that we go into our personal thinking far too often when we'd have challenges. Actually, if we get really, really quiet and quieten our mind, and we allow our wisdom and our inner knowing to do the work, then the solution comes far easier and generally for quicker. And the final thing is have more fun. I think I've worked too hard, that's the truth. When I was married to my last husband, he had a business that took him to San Francisco all the time and he would always say, come with me, come with me, and go and stay with friends in San Francisco. And you'd have an amazing time. And I'd always say, businesses too busy. We've got too much work on. And I always said no. And you know, I really, really regret that. I really regret that. So that doesn't happen anymore. Now I say yes, when people ask me to go to San Francisco.Steve Rush: And if you're having fun. It makes the work get done too.Elke Edwards: Oh, I haven’t heard that before, that's good, yeah.Steve Rush: I stole this from a good old friend of mine. His name is Dr Wolf Rinke. He’s an author and great sage and he had this business cards that said “FUN” on the back of every single business card. And his mantra was, if it's fun, it gets done.Elke Edwards: Good, I like that. I will still steal that too.  Steve Rush: So, Elke, you've been an amazing guest on the show. I know that our listeners will be thinking, how can I find out some more about Ivy House and how can I get a copy of Extraordinary? Where would you like us to send it?Elke Edwards: Well, that's very kind. Thank you. I've really enjoyed talking to you. So, our website is ivyhouse.co.uk. You can get the book off Amazon. The other thing that we have is extraordinary unplugged, which is our own podcast. And it's all people that have put their hands up and said, I'm on a journey to create an extraordinary life and their coaching calls really where people bring challenges. And that's getting a lot of amazing feedback. So, if people are interested in this kind of journey, they might be interested in that podcast too.Steve Rush: We'll make sure all of those links are in our show notes.Elke Edwards: Thank you very much.Steve Rush: Elke on behalf of The Leadership Hacker Podcast and our listeners. Thanks for taking time out of your diary. It's been an absolute blast speaking with you. I think we could probably carry it on for hours and get into some of the details. It's been super you being on the show. Thanks ever so much.Elke Edwards: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much.  Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker. 

Corry Robertson is a leading global expert on organizational culture, coaching culture and colleague engagement. She's also the founder and CEO of The Coaching Academy for Leaders. In this episode learn about:Coaching as a way of beingWhy creating a coaching culture is key for leadersHow to adapt your coaching and communication style in a virtual worldThe reason emotional connections in coaching are so important.Plus loads more hacks!Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Corry Robertson below:Corry’s Website - https://corryrobertson.comCorry on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/corryrobertson/Corry on Twitter - https://twitter.com/CorryRobertsonCorry on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/coachcorryrobertsonpcc/ Full Transcript below ----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Joining us on the show today is Corry Robertson. She's recognized as an expert on organizational culture and she's the founder and CEO of The Coaching Academy for Leaders. But before we get a chance to meet with Corry, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: In the new today we've got a fun and bizarre story just to put into context how crazy our biases can be. The guy who travels the New York, subway dressed as a giant rat as his bizarre costume makes it dead easy to practice social distancing, Jonothon Lyon purchase on the train six wearing his strange regalia as part of his work as a performance artist. And he says his costume is ideal for staying COVID secure. He's told us that he doesn't have to worry about what people are saying or how close they need to get because the six feet distance is just naturally happening. A video of Jonathon riding, the rails dresses as Buddy the Rat went viral online with the official account of New York metropolitan transport authority joking, thank you for wearing a mask. Jonothon points out that he was wearing a surgical face mask underneath his rat face. In fact, sometimes he wears an extra face mask on top of buddy face. When not infesting the underground, Jonothon works in physical theatre and puppetry as well as performing as part of a barbershop quartet, The Apple Boys. He's even done a stint with internationally famous performance art company, Blue Man Group, but Jonothon best known for scampering around on TikToK as Manhattan's largest rodent. He occasionally even carries a giant pizza slice to add a touch of realism to the scene. Jonothon said he created his Buddy the Rat character just over 10 years ago, and his first video showing buddy expedition to times square scored just over 70,000 views on YouTube. So good luck to Jonothon and Buddy the Rat, but the leadership lens here is quite simple. However, absurd and obvious it may seem to people that a giant rat can put space between us proves that our unconscious thinking and our unconscious mindset still plays out in some simple behaviours. So, the next time you see a giant rat and you think I need to run away from it, it's probably just Jonothon. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any fun, interesting, or just plain crazy stories that you'd like our listeners to hear, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Corry Robinson is our special guest on today's show. She's a leading global expert on organizational culture, engagement and retention, particularly in the tech industry. She's also the founder and CEO of The Coaching Academy for Leaders. Corry, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Corry Robertson: Thank you for having me, Steve.Steve Rush: Joining us all the way from Quebec in Canada today.Corry Robertson: Absolutely.Steve Rush: How is Canada dealing with the world and what's happening right now?Corry Robertson: Well, you know, I think Canadians are being good Canadians, you know, trying hard to, you know, limit the spread of COVID-19, learn to keep a great attitude, you know, and just trying to keep the world turning, you know, doing our part to get through this together.Steve Rush: Good stuff. So, tell us a little bit about your journey Corry, from where you started out to then running and leading and coaching and inspiring others?Corry Robertson: Great question. I started with a degree in communication studies actually, and I entered the workforce and I was just so excited. It was my dream come true to, you know, get out and start working and making my mark on the world. I started realizing very quickly in that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. You know, I was really looking forward to, you know, working with great leaders and having great colleagues. In retrospect, I realized what was really lacking for me was strong leadership, visionary leadership. And so, I moved from advertising into project managing events, which I really, really enjoyed and took a break from that when my husband had an opportunity to move abroad and we had a small child at the time. And then when we got abroad and the baby was on the way and I wanted to go back to my events business, but I didn't have a network. And so, I decided I was going to build one. So, I started this business called the Elvetham Heath business network. And Elvetham Heath was the name of the village we lived in and the business grew and grew and grew. And what ended up happening was is, I took all of my work experience that I had had from, you know, from advertising. I did some time in magazine publishing and of course there was the events. I realized that these skills were really important for my business network. So before, you know, I'm publishing a magazine for, you know, full articles written by my clients. You know, giving really great advertising opportunities. I'm organizing trade shows, I'm hosting networking events, giving public speaking opportunities to my clients. And three of my clients were business coaches and two of them became really good friends. And one of them lent me his material from this training school that he went to become a coach. And he lent me the material on Friday afternoon, two huge binders because in those days we still received our learning material on paper and on eve files.Steve Rush: There was no Zoom then.Corry Robertson: There was no Zoom, no digital files. Our business network actually had one of the first websites that anyone had seen. Nobody had really gotten hooked on websites yet; it was still pretty new. And I realized from clients who were coaches, what I've learned from them is that most people, although they're asking for advice, so they reach out and they ask for help. They don't really need advice. And this is really where the coaching magic comes in as you know, people already have so much information, so much education, so much experience, so much creativity and intelligence that they don't need mine. They don't need yours. They don't need anybody else. They need somebody to help coax it out of them. And that's what coaching is. So, when I discovered coaching as a profession, in Canada coaches were sports coaches, not life coaches or leadership coaches or corporate coaches. So, it was brand new to me. And it was just, it was a catalyst for me. I have this, this is really, really exciting stuff. And it's such a great opportunity to be a part of.Steve Rush: Awesome, I had a very similar experience. Actually, its kind of gets hold of you, doesn't it? When you can unlock the potential in others through just conversation in great communication, it's almost a luring, isn't it? And you just want more of it and more of it.Corry Robertson: Oh, absolutely. As you know, I train coaches, I mentor aspiring coaches and I always tell them, I said, there's going to come a time when you witnessed somebody's “A-HA!” moment and you will never be the same again.Steve Rush: Yeah, I feel very privileged in having done that several occasions, if not more than several occasions. And it's a very intimate experience, isn't it? And you know, particularly cherish.Corry Robertson: Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. And then you think this is my blessing. This is my career. You know, people come to me and they allow me to hold space and bear witness to their transformation. And it's so special because it's not from me. I didn't tell them anything. I didn't give them anything that they didn't already have, just held the space open long enough and wide enough for them to see it for themselves.Steve Rush: So, what’s the key focus that you're working with your clients on right now?Corry Robertson: Bringing coaching into cultures as the leadership style, you know, not just doing coaching, you know, oh, you know, maybe I'll try my coaching hat for this problem, no. My main focus with my clients right now is bringing in coaching as the primary and fundamental culture of an organization and supporting leaders in developing coaching as their leadership style and not just a leadership trick or tip.Steve Rush: I did my master's degree on coaching. And what I observed through my research is that the higher the leaders became in their organizational hierarchy to the C-Suite, the less they coached, but the more they recognized the need for it, how do you kind of help people through that journey?Corry Robertson: Wow, that's an interesting one, you know, and sometimes they think that the higher people go the more they feel the value they deliver comes from imparting their knowledge and their experience and providing the solutions and thinking quickly and coming in and making things better. And that's where they feel that they're providing value. And that's what they feel they're being measured and judged and so on and so forth. But, you know, as well as I do that, the higher people go, the more they have to take on that servant leadership approach and the coaching approach becomes even more effective. So, when I encounter that, you know, when I encounter that people are getting in their own way. It's just a matter of reminding, you know, that the coaching approach is really powerful and not to forget that and then work through it. You know, in my coaching conversations, I always ask my clients, you know, bring something real to the conversation, you know, come ready to talk about what's going on in your day to day right now, this morning or what's happening this afternoon that you need to prepare for. When people are dealing with hypotheticals and what would I do if, and what if this should happen? It's less effective.Steve Rush: Right.Corry Robertson: Because it's fiction.Steve Rush: Definitely is, isn't it? Communication cuts through all of the work you do now. So, having studied that as a kind of a foundation, I should imagine that you're drawing on that all the while. So right the way through organizational culture, leadership development, and coaching, how have you noticed communication shift this year particularly?Corry Robertson: I think there's a big shift in that people don't have their water cooler time. You know, they don't have that few minutes before the meeting where everyone's gathering and, you know, sitting around the table, waiting for everyone to arrive. The energetic connection between people is weaker now. So, it makes communication harder. You know, when you can't be with a person in their daily interactions, it's, it's much, much more difficult for people to connect.Steve Rush: Yeah.Corry Robertson: I think people are struggling with that.Steve Rush: I like the way you framed that, that kind of energy connection, but that's exactly what it is because people have this perception that communication is verbal or nonverbal, but there is this kind of a sensory communication that we miss as well, isn't that?Corry Robertson: I think so, and I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of coaching happens over the phone. So, my practice hasn't really changed all that much because like I was home-based before. The only thing that really changes is the training program, which is used to be all in person, but now it's online. But when you're aware of energy and I really want to take a minute to flush this out. You can still establish an intuitive connection over the phone or over you know, a video conference of some kind. It's just a matter of being aware of your intuition. You can hear a person's body language through the telephone.Steve Rush: Yeah, you can.Corry Robertson: You know, you don't have to see, you don't have to watch their eye movements. You don't have to judging, are they crossing their arms and legs? Are they, you know, are they, I don't know, pacing around the room? You can feel that energy beyond your eyes and your ears. And I think that is probably where leadership needs to go next. Is tapping into this ability to read energy through intuitive connection. And I know, you know, people might be thinking, oh my God, this is so wooed, woo. I don't want to listen to this. But its intuition, you know, it is part of the human capacity. You know, we used to use words like gut instinct, you know, and that was accepted language, right? So, it's the same thing. We can tap into energetic connections through intuition, if we pay attention and it's a skillset that you can learn and you can practice, you can get good at.Steve Rush: It's also scientific too, isn't it? So, you know, intuition is a reaction in our nervous system caused by a scanning thousands and thousands and thousands of unconscious events where we're observing maybe only one or two things happening in front of us consciously, but the unconscious mind does the scan of all of the different experiences, how people breathe, how people speak, their tonality. And it's that gut feel is caused by shifting dopamine in our brain. As coaches, it's that paying attention to it that's most important, isn't it?Corry Robertson: I'm so glad to hear the scientific explanations behind these things that have been so intangible and so therefore dismissed, but you're right. You know, studies of the brain and neuroscience, neurobiology, it's really starting to prove that, you know, what intuition is and how it works and why it works. So, you know, when we're tuned in to these things, when we're paying attention. I'll tell you a little story, when I first started my coaching studies, I went to Coach U and Coach U is an international school and it was all done online and over the phone. Our classes were all telephone-based and our, you know, reading material, our tests and such were all online. And that was a long time ago. You know, when you think, I started in 2004, so that was really pre this world that we're living in, where everything's online. Our practice groups were of people from all over the planet. And I was having my turn to coach and my colleague, when she was doing her turn to be the client, she was in New Zealand and I was here in Quebec. And I asked her question and she went silent. And as you know, one of the coaching skills that we learned to master is the technique of holding the silence, where we just let silence be for as long as it needs to be without the rush to fill in words and more questions and more explanations, just be in the silence. So, in the silence, I started to cry.Steve Rush: Wow, that’s pretty prolific, isn't it?Corry Robertson: Yeah, so I'm thinking, oh my goodness, what's going on with me right now? I'm in the middle of a class that's I’m supposed to be coaching a client of mine, and she's going to start talking again and I'm going to be a mess. And so, I'm thinking, oh no, what's going to happen. And then when she starts talking again, she's crying and she realized she was crying because I asked her such a profound question. It was an epiphany for her. And I thought, here I am in Quebec and she's in New Zealand. And we were so intuitively and energetically connected that I took on her emotions and felt them, myself.Steve Rush: That's amazing story.Corry Robertson: Oh, you know, and when you start noticing, you know, I had a client a few months ago, he's telling me this story, is so angry, something had happened at work. He was just so angry. And he said, Corry, so as he's talking to me, I'm starting to feel this terrible stomach ache come over me. And I think I'm going to have to get off this call. Like if I don't get this pain under control, I'm going to have to go. And he said, Corry, I'm so mad. He said, I feel like I've been punched in the stomach.Steve Rush: Wow.Corry Robertson: You see? So, there's two stories are examples of how we can be intuitively and energetically connected with another person. The gentleman I was talking about, he was in another province in Canada and we're over the landline. And my classmate in New Zealand, again, we were on landlines, you know, so it exists and it happens. And it's not just me. As, you know, you felt it too.Steve Rush: Sure.Corry Robertson: You have this wonderful, scientific explanation for why it happens. And I think it's where we really need to go with leadership right now and communication. Is this ability to use our intuition as a communication skill.Steve Rush: And there may be folks that are listening to this thinking. Just not me, I can't do that. But of course, this is about practice. And as coaches, we've practiced thousands and thousands of hours over our careers. And the more you observe, we put that to the unconscious part of our mind, but we intuitively then can recognize it because we've seen it happen somewhere before, which gives us that nudge to ask more intuitive questions or more exploratory questions or more profound thinking questions. One of the key things that you help people with as part of your coaching practice is the whole principle of organizational culture. For those people who may be not familiar with what organizational culture is, how would you frame it?Corry Robertson: So organizational culture is really how do the values that we share as people in this company, how did they show up in our behaviour? So that's really the short, short explanation of it. So how do we treat each other? How do we dress? How do we treat the property? You know, the desks and the, you know, office supplies and things, what is the decor like? You know, all of these things represent culture. Do we speak quickly? You know, or do we speak slowly? Do we have a lot of meetings? How do we treat people when a mistake is made? How do we promote people? What do we value in the way people produce their work? So, all of these things lead to what the organizational culture is.Steve Rush: Great summary, thank you for providing a bit more context for folk on that, I love that. In order to then think about what's happened this year during the pandemic, wherever you own the world, however intense it's been for you or not. How do you think that organizational culture might shift because of it?Corry Robertson: That's a really good question. So, I think cultures are shifting because we've had this, there's a couple of really, really amazing things that have happened. So, for one thing, things that were deemed impossible and so impossible, they were unspeakable. Before COVID-19 all of a sudden became possible, mainly work from home, you know, so the call centres for banks, for example, impossible, impossible. There's no way, you know, call centre employees from banks can ever work from home. Within a week they were working from home. So, I think cultures might be shifting in one way to see, you know, to acknowledge that what we always said was impossible, isn't impossible. So, I think cultures that are going to be opening up to a lot more capacity for innovation, you know, and tackling what was deemed to be the impossible or tackling rules or norms that were just never discussed before, because it was just always that way. So now I think we realized we don't have to live with things just because it was always that way, it wasn't working.Steve Rush: And some of those rules that you talk about they're often applied because that's how we know we can do things and the rules and belief systems that we had prior to the pandemic, said this is how we do things. And I guess as a result of being thrust into something that we thought, perhaps wasn't possible 10 months ago, now creates the capacity to unlock new thinking, new innovation. That'd be kind of fair, summation?Corry Robertson: I think that's a great way of putting it, yeah.Steve Rush: Great. One of the things you've been really big on in your career is that whole, how you coach people and how you help organizations to retain their top talent. And one of the things I'd love to get into with you is just this whole principle about how people are going to feel more valued because of what they've been through, but also how people might, particularly the talent end of the spectrum might use this as an opportunity to jump if they don't feel valued. What's your take on that?Corry Robertson: Yeah, so I think that's always been the case. I think it's much more prevalent now, it's much more obvious now. The war on talent has been something we've been talking about. You know, I've been talking about it for at least 10 years and trying to explain, there was a saying that, you know, I think it was the eighties where they said companies used to expect employees to prove their worth to the organization. And now it's the other way around where organizations are having to prove their worth to the employee. And the war on talent has been such a hot topic of discussion in my field. And I'm sure you've heard it as well. I think to attract and retain talent these days. I really do think people are looking for cultures where they feel that, you know, there's the movement for psychological safety, you know, so where people feel that they can speak out, they won't be mocked or belittled because of their ideas or their values.They'll be able to make mistakes, you know, without fear of, you know, serious repercussions. You know, I think it's important. People feel, you know, to again, to attract and retain top talent. The whole piece around being developed. You know, people want to be seeing and feeling how they're learning and growing as human beings. You know, and this is not just a new idea. You know, you could just look back to, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And we see that the need to, you know, be connected to colleagues, to feel respected and appreciated for our work and the need to be growing and learning as a human being. Those are the top three things on the hierarchy of needs after safety and security. They're not nice to have, there need to have an organization who can understand that and provide for that will be the ones who will be able to retain their talent and keep them from jump ship.Steve Rush: There's also been a big shift too, culturally, over the last 20 years as our Baby Boomers and Generation X are heading towards the more senior Twilight years of their careers. And in the next 10 or 15 years, most CEOs running the business are likely to be at the very least Gen Y. And in some cases, some Gen Z, colleagues too, and that plays out too, doesn't it? When you start thinking about developing talent and expectations.Corry Robertson: It certainly does. It certainly does. You know, the things that people care about are changing. And I was just doing some research the other day on the Gen Z. So Gen Z's are now just finishing up university. They're just entering the workforce. They need transparency. They have no patience for being left in the dark. They have no patience for lies or miscommunications. They want it clear and they want it on the table. And I really admire that. They, you know, there's so much haze and smoke and mirrors and nonsense going around. And, you know, it's so many organizations and the young folks are just like, yeah, no, say it like it is, you know, one of my favourite expressions is say what you mean and mean what you say, and the Gen Z are demanding that.Steve Rush: The Gen Z workforce that's going to be coming into play, seriously in the next 5 to 10 years are also of a cultural upbringing where there's instant gratification. So, if we're not instantly gratifying their career aspirations and helping them on their personal development journeys, then they're most likely to also be impatient around how they get there, right?Corry Robertson: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm a Gen X-er.Steve Rush: I’m a Gen X-er too.Corry Robertson: Okay, okay, good. So, what I was noticing with one of my younger cohorts recently is this request for reminders, you know, this request for more follow-ups. And I find that, you know, I'm catching myself going, wow. You know, my generation has tried so hard to reduce the number of emails and make things really clear. And, you know, just say it once and then, you know, write it down in your agenda book or note it in your online calendar, and then you're good to go. And so, can you send me a reminder, you know, can you send me that material in like three different ways? And I’m like wow. And I'm checking myself going, well, my reaction is no, I'm not sending you a reminder, write it down.Steve Rush: Yeah.Corry Robertson: But it’s the need, it's the way that generation is moving, you know, because I think they move so fast and everything is, you know, like that constant gratification you were talking about. It's the way they want to be communicated with; you know? So, to be one who's always trying to, you know, try to walk my talk cause like, okay, maybe I need to shift. I am the older one.Steve Rush: Yeah.Corry Robertson: You know, but as somebody who is adjusting to the new needs of the generations coming through, it's like, okay, I maybe have to be the one to adjust.Steve Rush: It's great to ask those questions of yourself as well as part of that process. Isn't it?Corry Robertson: Absolutely, I think that's how we stay relevant, right? And it's what we are asking, you know, as coaches, we're always asking people questions that cause them to reflect. So, we have to do that to ourselves as well.Steve Rush: So, I saw some research recently that said over half of people that left organizations said on their exit interviews, that their line manager could have prevented them from leaving, which sounds like a real shame. But what causes that?Corry Robertson: Oh boy, there are so many, there's so many variables that lead up to that. So, it's been proven time and time again, I'm sure you've seen this literature as well, that people don't leave their jobs. And many times, they don't even leave their companies, right. Cause you think of it, people spend many, many, many years and thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars or pounds and investing in their educations. You know, they're preparing themselves for the workforce. They're studying, they're spending their money on this. They're sacrificing for their dream job and they get into the workforce. So, it's not their job that they're leaving and it's not their company. You know, people go to a lot of trouble to choose their companies and to apply and prepare themselves to be the right fit for the organization. It's the boss that they leave. It's their direct manager. So, people aren't leaving jobs or companies. They're leaving their bosses.Steve Rush: And it's an old habit, but it's so true, isn't it?Corry Robertson: It's so true. It's so true. Very often it's not because the boss isn't technically competent at his or her job. They often got promoted because they were technically competent. It's because they don't have the leadership skills.Steve Rush: Right, and that takes us full circle right back to helping raise awareness and self-awareness of leaders so that they can impact the culture so that the talent, when they come into the workforce can be nurtured in the right way. And it's then a positive experience versus a negative experience.Corry Robertson: Absolutely, you know, and there are so many important parts of being a manager. And I always say that, you know, I compare, you know, the human interaction to something like the way that computer works and I'll say the hardware doesn't work without the software.Steve Rush: Yes, good analogy, I like that.Corry Robertson: You know, so it's like the soft skills. You need the soft skills to get the job done. You know, you're talking to human beings, people forget, you know, we all have feelings. We all have egos, we all have hopes and dreams and fears, and those cannot be overbooked. And it takes soft skills to be able to nurture a human being through the day's work so that they can really perform, you know, without dropping the ball and leaving the organization.Steve Rush: It does. It does. So now I get to turn the leadership lens on you. This is part of the show where I get to hack into your great mind from a leadership perspective. And I'd love for you to share with our guests, if you could, your top three leadership hacks?Corry Robertson: Okay. So, number one, leaders keep in mind that not everybody is like you, the people who, you know, if you're out there and your owner of a start-up and your company's maturing, and you've got a workforce now. You might be wondering why isn't everybody willing to work 24/7 and be available around the clock and make this thing happen. Because not everybody has that entrepreneurial spirit, not everybody can get an organization off the ground. And once you start growing to the point where you have a workforce, chances are, they're not wired like you. So, don't try to make them like you. Get to know yourself really well, and then from your self-awareness, start becoming aware of others and then work towards fulfilling their needs. And that's how you're going to turn it around. And it ignites passion for the organization and the organizational goals, so that's number one.Number two, I would suggest to leaders to get curious, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before, but get curious about what's going on for people, what's going on in their minds. You know, when they come into your office and they've got something on their mind that they want to talk to you about, don't be so quick to jump in and give answers and advice and tell them what to do, ask questions. And you'll see that once they see that you're genuinely curious and you're approaching the situation with, you know, conversational curiosity, they are really going to open up and you will have the opportunity to witness the brilliance and the potential in that other person. They already know that you're brilliant. They already know that, it's your turn now to get curious and figure out what's brilliant about them. That's going to make them feel great and it's going to unleash their potential and their energy and their engagement in the role.And my third hack is if people are delegating up, you know, giving responsibility back to you or not being able to move forward on things without coming to check with you, is this what you want? Is this the way you like it? Give me some ideas. If that kind of upwards delegation is occurring on your team, you probably haven't done my first two hacks.Steve Rush: Yeah, true.Corry Robertson: Yes, so if people are delegating up back to you and you feel that they're not moving ahead, I would ask you to check your soft skills and your coaching skills because they’re stuck.Steve Rush: And it probably starts with coaching too, doesn't it?Corry Robertson: Well, you know, you're a coach talking to a coach.Steve Rush: We are speaking to the converted between us, aren't we?Corry Robertson: Absolutely. You know, to me, it's Mecca, you know, it is the answer to everything. If you want to solve all of your organizational problems, just bring in a coaching culture. And you know, so many things will be better because of that.Steve Rush: Very true.Corry Robertson: I guess that's hack number four.Steve Rush: In fact, that could even be a new show, right?Corry Robertson: Oh, absolutely. What a great idea.Steve Rush: So, the next part of the show, our listeners have become affectionately accustomed to, which is what we call Hack to Attack. So, this is a time in your life or your work where something's screwed up. It just hasn't worked out as planned. But as a result of the experience, you use it as a positive in your life, what will be your Hack to Attack?Corry Robertson: Oh boy, my Hack to Attack would be to slow down. You know, if I think back to who I was or what I was like when I was 21, I was in a huge rush. You know, if I don't get this done by the time, I'm 23, or my career is going to be a disaster. Oh, my goodness, I'm 24 and I haven't got this. I think in rushing like that or feeling rushed like that, it causes a stunted type of energy. And so, if I were to go back and if I were to bump into myself at 21 on the street, I would say, don't worry, take it in stride, learn from everything, take it all in. And then everything good or bad right or wrong. It's all another, you know, brick in the foundation. You know, it's absolutely amazing when you look back, you know, 20 something years later and go yet, you know what? Even the painful things, even the embarrassing things, even the expensive things, they all led to now, and I can use every single one of those mistakes and embarrassing moments and lost investments. I can say hand to heart, they serve me well in this moment and they allow me to be a better coach, more empathetic, more compassionate, more experienced, gentle person.Steve Rush: That's awesome Corry. And I guess, you know, our show better than everybody else, because the next part of our show would be to jump into giving yourself advice at 21 and you've just done it, which is amazing. So, an advocate we have in you. So, I appreciate that. So, find the part of our show. We get to help our listeners connect with you, find out a little bit more about the work that you're doing with the coaching category for leaders. Where's the best place for our listeners to come and find you?Corry Robertson: It can be found @corryrobertson.com, which is my website address. I'm also on LinkedIn, same Corry Robertson. And I have a Facebook page called Corry Robertson Alive From 9 to 5. And anyone who's interested in becoming a coach. I am a coach trainer. I have my program, is accredited by The International Coach Federation. So, whether you are interested in using coaching as a leadership style and your day to day at work, or whether you would like to someday start your own coaching practice, I can definitely talk you through. We can have a conversation to see if you know, coaching as a profession is right for you. And if it is, then I can point you in the right direction,Steve Rush: And we'll make sure that all those links are in our show notes as well, so that folk can click on straight away.Corry Robertson: Oh, thank you. And thank you so much for this opportunity.Steve Rush: You're very welcome. Hey, this has been super to connect with you. So, what's next for you? Corry Robertson: What's next for me? Well, you know, so excited about, you know, moving, you know, at first, I did not want to move my training practice, my coach training practice online. So many people suggested it to me over the years and you can go global. I mean, I don't want to, I want to go in person and be with my people and now forced to, I when online, wow! My online program is fantastic. I've made so many improvements. So, I think what's next. The next wave is going to be for people like yourself and myself who are available online. Now we're going to have to go back out into the world probably next year and create yet another hybrid of what is the perfect blend between the online piece, which I think is here to stay. I think I for one made a lot of improvements because of the online piece and then to take the best of both worlds. So, what was great about the in-person and now what is great about the online and then marry the two, so I think that's what’s nextSteve Rush: Good, not much work to do.Corry Robertson: No, well, you know what, between midnight and 3:00 AM, we have nothing to do.Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly. Sleep is overrated.Corry Robertson: Oh, totally.Steve Rush: Anyway, listen. On behalf of our listeners, Corry, thanks for joining us on the show. It's been a real pleasure talking with you. Wish you every success of what happens next in your world, but thanks for being on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Corry Robertson: Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening and you know, best wishes for health and happiness to you and all the leaders and all the listeners out there.Steve Rush: Thanks Corry. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.  

Luis Gonzales is a master facilitator and a global communications expert. We have some fierce hacks from Luis today which include:How his multicultural upbringing shaped his corporate career positivelyWhy cultures play a significant part in your communicationPaying attention to one conversation at a time enriches relationshipsWhy noticing how your intuition informs conversations is criticalPlus lots more hacksJoin our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Luis:Fierce Inc. Website: https://fierceinc.comLuis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luisgonzales/  Full Transcript Below: ----more---- Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. We're joined on the show today by Louis Gonzales. He's a master facilitator and a global communications expert. But before we get into conversation with Luis, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: Did you know that in every language, there are more negative words than there are positive ones. It seems we need lots of words to describe my negative feelings, but we're content with a handful of ones to describe positive feelings. Researchers have found that most cultures have words that describe seven basic emotions. They are joy, fear, anger, sadness, disgust, shame, and guilt. So that's one positive emotion and six negative emotions. It's no wonder so many of us have a hard time keeping our negative comments in check. Over the last 10 years, I've been working with language and communication, and I've noticed a bunch of words in our vocabulary that are unhelpful and could adversely impact on you and your team's outcomes.In the news today, I've called out five that I think are most limiting negative words, and really could be avoided so that we don't hurt, belittle and intimidate those around us. Let's get into them.The first word is can't. When you tell somebody they can't do something, oftentimes they'll end up in believing you, whether you are right or wrong. This is particularly true if the person has come to trust you and to respect you and can often then limit people's behaviours.No, the word no is a mother and father all negative words and no can impact us down to our very core. In fact, research tells us that we rap more slowly to the word no than we do to the word yes. And that our brains respond differently when we're told no. This is a great reminder for us to use this word sparingly and to be thoughtful when we do use it.Failure as in you're a failure, is that ever really a reason to use this word in relation to another person? Until a few years ago, I actually used this on my website and I used the phrase failure isn't an option. Now I put success is your only option. And lo and behold, when people read it, they stay on the page longer. They recognize this as more of a positive enabler. It also stimulates better thinking. Positive beats negative, of course, in every situation.Wrong, the word wrong has its place. And sometimes there's no doubt that something is wrong. However, constantly telling someone they're doing something wrong or that their opinions are wrong are likely to drive a wedge between the two of you. Using this word assumes that only, you know, best. You have the monopoly on what's classed as a truth. So, reserve this word for when there is absolutely no doubt that it is wrong and it's accurate.And finally, the word never. Using generalizations, like always never. Often indicates that you feel very strongly something. However, it may not be an accurate analysis of the situation at all. If you want to intimidate or hurt someone, i.e. You failed everything you try then using generalizations is a great technique, but of course, if that's not your intention, it's probably best to take a different approach and get more specific. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. We'd love to hear your stories and insights, so please get in touch. Start of PodcastSteve Rush: Luis Gonzales is a special guest on today's show. He is a master facilitator. He's an expert in workplace performance, productivity and communications. Luis welcome to the Leadership Hacker Podcast.Luis Gonzales: Thank you, Steve. It's great to be here.Steve Rush: So, you've got really fascinating backstory. Having now worked as a master facilitator at Fierce, you didn't start out life that way and a very multicultural upbringing in the city of Compton, South of LA. Tell us a little bit about the journey to Compton to where you are now?Luis Gonzales: Well many of your listeners may have heard of the city of Compton. Right now It's known for rap music and extreme gang violence, but I'll say that it was quite not like that back in the sixties and seventies, when I was growing up there, it was a very diverse community. So, I'm very fortunate to have grown up in such a diverse community as Compton. People of different colours and shades, et cetera. It also provided some challenges that I needed to work through as a young person, which made me who I am today, made me a much stronger person who I am today. It's a very working-class community. And I think what sparked me to get into what I'm into now, which is, you know, all about communication, effective communication, or as we say, fierce communication, I used to observe as a child, the different styles of communication that people from different backgrounds and races had all in the same community of Compton.And I used to kind of study that from a very I guess, immature way, you know, why do they talk like that? How is it they're communicating? And what's the actual message they're trying to deliver? How is it being received, et cetera? And again, this is in a multicultural environment. So, you could say it could be between Latin Americans, Mexican Americans, and the way they communicate and communicating with African-Americans perhaps. So, there's two different communication styles there. So, I'm really grateful that I grew up in a diverse world, a diverse neighbourhood with lots of support. Were there challenges? Absolutely. But that has also caused me to become a better communicator today. And I would say a better person overall as well in terms of my outlook on diversity, being more accepting of differences in people, et cetera. So that's a little bit about Compton, my background and how that kind of propelled me into what I'm doing now.Steve Rush: And I wonder if that time that you were growing up, Luis, you had an awareness of the different types of communication because you would have not only had the multicultural language communication was physical, but I suspect that there were a number of different nonverbal communication styles and attitudes that were playing out. It's almost like a communications apprenticeship, right? Luis Gonzales: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll give you a perfect example of that Steve. When I was very young, probably second grade, maybe I was seven or eight years old, one of the kids in school who was a Mexican American kid, like myself, was being scolded by the teacher, by the way, I went to Catholic School, but that's neither here nor there, but in those days there were some scolding when you misbehaved or were not behaving as you should. And the teacher was scolding this young Mexican American kid, my classmate. And I remember him looking down and looking down while he was being scolded. And the teacher kept saying, look at me, stop looking down, look at me. And he was getting in trouble because he refused to look at the teacher. And I remember telling my parents that when I went home and it was probably not at that time, I may have been too young, but later I came to understand, and my father helped me understand that's a cultural difference. That's a cultural communication style. That's nonverbal, as you said. So, I'll say in our culture and what I mean by that is, I identify as a Mexican American. So, in my Mexican background, my Mexican family culture when someone is scolded, you don't look that person in the eye, you remain humble and you tilt your head downward. In a US American context, however, that might be seen as disrespectful. And you need to look the person in the eye, who's scolding you, the older person, the elder, whoever it is. So that's one example right there of different communication style, all in English, all in the same country, all within the same overarching culture if you will. Here in Southern California. And yet there's a miscommunication that caused a breakdown in a relationship, and nobody really understood why.Steve Rush: And it's the subtle nuances and those cultural communication styles that you become successful at adapting and learning about, and indeed sharing those lessons. And we'll get onto that in a little bit more detail in a moment.Luis Gonzales: Sure.Steve Rush: When it comes to your corporate career, though, you have a great kind of story of evolution and transformation, your corporate career in the hospitality business. Just tell us a little bit about that?Luis Gonzales: Sure, I started with the Ritz Carlton Hotel, proud to say that. At the ripe age of, I think it was 20 or 21, and it was based here in the Los Angeles area, that hotel property at the time. And so, we receive a lot of high-profile guests, a lot of celebrities, princes and royalty from all over the world. You can imagine that this five-star hotel, the Ritz Carlton in the Los Angeles area, all the people that came through there, I was exposed again to all kinds of cultures and communication styles. And of course, with the Ritz Carlton, they set a very high standard for guest satisfaction, wowing the guests and all of that. And so, in order to exceed the expectations of a guest. That requires communication, that requires effective communication. And so, I was in the school, if you will, while working for the Ritz Carlton, I was in my own school of learning how to communicate across cultures, even within the Ritz Carlton, across departmental cultures, what to speak of. The various cultures that pass-through hotel that I had to interact with.And please, if you will, or, you know, exceed their expectations as we used to say. So, I learned very quickly, not a lot of people were very interested in that. But for me, I took a deep interest in that. And so, for example, one example of an aha moment, if you will, that I had. Was when I was welcoming a wedding party, I had been with the Ritz probably about eight years, by that time and a big Indian wedding party, or what I thought was an Indian wedding party was coming in, everyone dressed to the hilt, all the beautiful clothing they were wearing and all that. And when the bride and her family entered the main doors of the Ritz Carlton, and I was standing there to greet them, I folded my hands in a Namaste fashion and greeted them with Namaste.And, oh my gosh, that was one of the most embarrassing moments. And one of the best learning moments I've ever had, don't assume, they were not Indian, they were Pakistani.Steve Rush: Alright, yeah.Luis Gonzales: They were not Hindu. They were Muslim. And what an aha moment that was for me. Now anybody else, any of my colleagues at that time, might've just said, oh, sorry about that. And then moved on, but I ruminated on it. Like, what's the difference? And what made me assume that they were Indian and how can I now clue into the differences before I put my foot in my mouth and embarrass myself. So that's an example of just one example of some of the learning, the intercultural communication style, intercultural communication learning that I had just by my exposure working at the Ritz-Carlton, exposure to so many cultures.Steve Rush: And I guess, you almost have a conveyor belt of different cultures and different languages that on top of your diverse upbringing, it was just another layer of learning all the way through your career, right?Luis Gonzales: That's right, absolutely. And then not to mention on top of that communication style of the Ritz Carlton itself, they have such a genteel way, I guess this is the best way I can describe it, of communicating, whether it be hard messages to deliver, or, you know, celebratory messages or just your basic memos, just that communication style that is so smooth and gracious and concise. And I learned from that as well, in terms of, you know, another way to communicate in a business setting.Steve Rush: I'm sure you won't mind me mentioning you started out as a bus boy with the Ritz Carlton and ended up as a senior leader for the organization.Luis Gonzales: I did.Steve Rush: And at what point did you make the transition from the hospitality business to being a master facilitator?Luis Gonzales: Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked that. I was with the Ritz Carlton for a total of about 18 years. I had worked my way through the ranks, as you mentioned, starting as a bus boy slash therapist banquets, waiter, parked cars, did all kinds of things and ended up as a guest services manager, meaning in charge of all the valets and the bell persons, et cetera, and the front of the house as we used to call it. And I had reached a point where I wanted to dive more deeply into this whole idea of intercultural cross-cultural communication, global communication, something peaked my interest at that moment. And I thought to myself, okay, I've put in 18 years in the hotel industry, where is this career going? And is this what my passion is? And I think it just boiled down to that was no longer my passion.I had developed another passion and that was effective communication across borders, across cultures. Within a year, I decided to go back to grad school or go to grad school and complete my education, which I had not done. So, I quit the Ritz, and I remember when I gave my notice, they were dumbfounded. They meaning my managers at the time, my leaders, who I respected at that time, their jaws dropped like you're going to ditch a career, this awesome career that you built for yourself. Okay, good luck. I proceeded to go to the Monterey Institute of International Studies. I got my bachelor's degree in International Studies. I got my master's degree in International Relations with a focus on culture and area studies. And so, I just spearheaded into this whole world of intercultural cross-cultural communication. And that's how I got into that.One of my mentors was my professor. He owned a consultancy company, still does. Called Aperian Global. They do cross-cultural consulting. They did, at that time, I got under his wing. Long story short, that's how I got here to where I am today. I began to start training effective communication. And in particular global cross border cross-cultural communication. I eventually ended up at Microsoft in India, where I worked for two years, coaching and training, the software engineers that were at the customer help desk, if you will, when the cloud has gone down and companies need quick help with that, they would reach my team in India. And I trained them and coach them on their communication styles with US Americans and Canadians. And from there long story short, connected, a few more dots after that and got me to where I am today with Fierce Conversations. Been with them for five years. Love what I do, because it's all about effective communication in so many aspects. In so many different angles, if you will, but that's the short story, Steve.Steve Rush: That's a great story. And I love the fact that all the while through your growing up in your corporate career, and I guess it may have even been completely unconscious. You already had the foundations for a bachelor's and a master's degree right there.Luis Gonzales: Yeah, I did. But I didn't realize. It is now I'm realizing it, but yes, you're right at the time, you don't realize what you know, I guess.Steve Rush: And it's a great story. Thank you for sharing that.Luis Gonzales: Absolutely.Steve Rush: So, tell us a little bit about the work that you do with Fierce, so Fierce Conversations as you called it.Luis Gonzales: Yeah, Fierce Conversations. Let me just start with our starting point. This is a firm belief that we have, and I believe this to be true. I've witnessed and experienced this in my own life. Our careers, our companies, our relationships, heck even our lives, they either succeed or fail and it happens gradually then suddenly. And it happens one conversation at a time. So, conversations are the linchpin, the key to achieving the results that we want, achieving the relationships that we want, the goals that we want or whatever it is we say we want, it starts with a conversation and highly effective people like us. I'll include you there, Steve and I do my best to be a highly effective individual. We track the trends of our lives and we look, and we can adjust. Who do we need to have conversations with to help us achieve our goals? Where are conversations missing that need to happen to avoid any kind of mistakes or perhaps disasters? Where am I not being as candid or as forthright as I could be, or as I should be in a particular situation to help me achieve whatever goals I want. So, at the core we are all about at Fierce paying attention to our individual conversations. Because as I mentioned already, one conversation at a time, we're either moving towards the results we say we want or away from those results. We're either enriching relationships or flat-lining them, or hopefully not, but sometimes damaging them. All happening one conversation at a time. So that's our foundational belief. And from there, we take that idea and we branch out into confrontational conversations, all kinds of leadership conversations, how to have delegation conversations, how to confront when behaviour needs to change now. We talk about the idea of building emotional capital and why relationships, why strong relationships are so important to achieving our organizational goals and results. And so, we branch off in so many different directions, and now we are getting involved with effective conversations, effective communication, as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion, because those are now topics that have bubbled up to the surface of the public discourse here in the United States, at least.Steve Rush: Great stuff, there’s one thing that I'd love to dive into with you. And it's this whole principle of candid and why we struggle with having candid conversations, giving your experience in the corporate world as leaders can play out. What's the reason you find that most leaders struggle with that candid?Luis Gonzales: Most leaders in my experience, and I'm speaking from personal experience as well. In addition to my 30 plus years of just work experience, it boils down to fear-based. If I'm candid, I fear that I may be wrong. I fear that I may damage some relationships. I fear that I might be wrong and look incompetent. So many fears, if you will hold us back from being candid. From saying what we really feel and want to say. Now oftentimes, again. I'll speak for myself. Many of us, we say what we feel is expected of us, to say what we should say. What people want us to say. If you're a people-pleaser like me, you will definitely say what you think people want you to say, but that may not be the real truth. So, where that gets us into trouble is if I'm not having a candid conversation with use Steve, for example, and there are pieces missing because I'm not taking the conversation to a deeper level where it needs to go, and there are pieces missing. In other words, there are pieces of the conversation that I'm not sharing with you as I'm not being so candid with you, that leads you to perhaps start assuming. You start filling in the blanks in your own mind with your assumptions and those assumptions are often wrong. And so that leads us to more in an organization that leads us to mistakes, rework, loss of clients, duplication of efforts, and all of those have a dollar sign cost to them. So back to your question, it's fear, fear of something that holds us back from being candid.Steve Rush: It’s also, sometimes, not even intentional, isn’t it? Some people will, most of the time, we'll try to land some things so that they don't choose somebody else. They don't upset somebody, but in doing so run a massive risk of that kind of whole waterfall effect of other things playing out as a result of it.Luis Gonzales: Yeah, I like to say by trying to avoid, you know, whatever the issue it is that you're trying to avoid and not being candid about it, you're actually exacerbating it because it's going to explode later. I've never had an experience of not addressing an issue or a problem, and it got better on its own. So, by ignoring that, and by not being candid by withholding what we really think we should say or feel that we need to say, we're actually accelerating that undesired result that we're trying to avoid. Does that make sense?Steve Rush: Right, yeah, definitely so. there's a little part of our brain that kind of gives a little bit of a wobble when we sense somebody not being as honest as they could be with us, there is a little shift in dopamine. And that's triggered in our, what often is referred to as gut feel is its intuition, isn't it?Luis Gonzales: Yeah.Steve Rush: How do you encourage your clients and colleagues to pay attention to that intuition and to challenge where they recognize somebody is not being as candid as they should?Luis Gonzales: By getting curious. That's where I always go to. So, if you're having a conversation with someone and your intuition, your sense is telling you there's more to the story here. I feel that there's some things being withheld here. I don't feel this person is being completely honest or what have you, ask questions, do not be satisfied on the surface. And when I say ask questions, it could sound something like, tell me more about that. Help me understand how you're seeing that. I'm not sure I'm clear what I'm hearing you say, is that right? I'd like to know more about that so that you can get a more complete picture of how they're seeing things. If they're withholding being candid from you. So, you can learn more, you can provoke learning by what I call interrogating reality, interrogating their reality, not interrogating the person, but by really staying with asking questions to find out more. And I always say with leaders, I've trained, don't be satisfied on the surface. Don't be satisfied with the first response you and I will say across the board, even if someone is being candid with you and they are being forthright and you know, on the surface with you, levelling with you. Still get curious, ask questions because there are details that may come out that they may not have thought of or purposely withholding from you. So, it's always good to just start with curiosity.Steve Rush: Defiantly, I suspect also at the same time in asking more questions, you get less assumptions, right?Luis Gonzales: That’s exactly right. I love that you said that because again, like I mentioned before, we, human beings tend to fill in the blanks. We make up stories and most of the time, those stories are not accurate. But we do that. It's human nature. And so, when I ask the questions, it alleviates those assumptions because now I have clarity on what's actually really going on here. I'm not making it, so you're absolutely right.Steve Rush: So, if I’m a leader and I'm communicating across a global business. How can I get more aware of how to adapt and change and modify my communication approach across a wider business?Luis Gonzales: The first thing I would recommend is if you have the opportunity to observe how different people from different cultures are communicating, that's the first step. And that's how I learned is just to sit back and watch and observe and observe how the communication is going back and forth. And then I would say, I don't know if this holds true today. And I say this because we're in a pandemic, we're all working remotely now. And I have a feeling I don't have data to back this up, but I have a feeling, our communication styles are all shifting. Even our global and cultural communication styles may be shifting as a result of us all working remotely and all being connected now on Zoom calls, et cetera. But prior to COVID I would say the second thing that I would start with is just by exploring at a very high level, what are some of the general ways or themes that cultures generally use in their communication? Are they high context? Are they low context? How do they view time? And when I say low context or high context you know, are there a lot of explanations? Do they give a lot of context? And you have to ask questions to help them get to the point or like us, US Americans, are we direct? We just get right to the point. So, it's helpful to understand that because from my experience, for example, working with Indians in India, very high context culture very averse to telling a client, a customer or a boss, no. And so you have to find out ways again, getting curious. Tell me more about that. Ask more questions to get the real answer. For example, I learned the hard way that when I was communicating with some of the Indian members of my team back in India, at Microsoft. If I would ask a question such as, will you have that ready by Friday end of day? Some of the answers I might get would be something like, we'll do our best, sir. Well, as a US American, I take that as a positive. We'll do our best. Sounds good. It sounds like they're going to pull this off, but I know I had to learn this, that's actually a no.Steve Rush: Yeah, right.Luis Gonzales: That's a subtle way of saying no. And so back to your question, first of all, observe how these conversations are going on. Anyone has an opportunity to join in that kind of a conversation via conference call or what have you to observe it, and then just do a little research on your own on the internet. There's plenty of resources out there to just see on a very high general level, what are those different communication styles that different cultures have? And especially if any of your listeners who are hearing this know that they're going to be working with or interfacing with people in a particular culture, then of course, zero in on how that culture communicates.And I will say, I don't paint a wide brush, generally speaking. That’s the culture communication style, but not everybody in that culture may follow that style. So, you know, we don't want to stereotype, but those are my two suggestions. First of all, see if you can observe and see the dynamics of the conversation between people from different cultures and start doing a little exploration and research on your own into those different communication styles. Last thing I'll say is most importantly, and I almost forgot to say it Steve. It's important for us to look at our own selves. What's our communication style personally, and what's our own cultural communication style. In other words, where were we born? I was born here in the United States. I'm a very direct communicator, but I also have my own personal way of communicating. So, it's important for us to know our own communication styles and our own values that back up those communication styles, and then take a look at the other ones.Steve Rush: Whilst I suspect stereotypes on the whole people feel a little bit uncomfortable with, there are pockets of behaviours that aren't quite consistent culturally and internationally, and it's a good starting point if nothing else, right?Luis Gonzales: I agree, and you know, I think this kind of reminds me of what I mentioned a minute ago where cultural communication styles may be shifting and maybe kind of unifying. I remember it was just 10 years ago, 9 years ago at Microsoft in India, there was this term Global English. There was a thought that at some point we would all in business be speaking the standardized what they called Global English. And it was almost forced in a way, I guess you could say, you know, we're going to you know, there was a strong push for everyone across cultures, especially within Microsoft and the teams that I was working with to use this, you know, model of the Global English. Now, as I mentioned with COVID and all of us kind of communicating even more. Now, frequently, more frequently across cultures, cross borders, et cetera. I suspect again, and I don't have research to back it up, but I suspect it's accelerated that. I don't know if I'd call it Global English, but we're all settling into some norm, I guess you could say in how we gain more of, it's more of an internet communication style, I guess you could say.Steve Rush: Yeah, I observed that too. One of the things that's quite interesting that I'd love your view on right now is that we're often speaking to folk around the world now via Zoom or WebEx or MS Teams and through our laptops and devices. Do you see that being a barrier to communication? Or do you see that as an enabler?Luis Gonzales: Well, I think it's a little bit of both. At first, it's kind of a barrier and I still see the barrier, it's just a technology thing. People are still trying to understand how the technology works, what are all the buttons they need to push and the video, getting comfortable with video on all of that. So, I see it as initially a little bit of resistance perhaps, a little bit of a hindrance, and there are some challenges, but I see this as a wonderful opportunity for the world at large, for humanity to be able to now increase our understanding our cross-cultural understanding and a humanness and communication. So, I see it in the bigger picture as a plus, as a definite boon to us on the planet. But right now, I think we're still in the transition period. I did a webinar yesterday where I'm still helping people understand where the raise hand icon is, and please put your phones on mute and where the camera button is and all that. So, I think once this becomes more normal in however long of time that takes, I think we're going to see a lot more benefits than challenges.Steve Rush: I wonder also if this could be a crutch to enable some of those more candid conversations, because I'm not having to worry about the physical environment, I'm in now, I can just rely on my communication and I'm safe.Luis Gonzales: Yeah, and that's the tricky part. And I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm noticing that in the webinars that I deliver, et cetera, that some people, for whatever reason, maybe they have valid reasons for it, but see this as an opportunity to sit back, be quiet, do my work, not really engaged and just deliver what I need to deliver. I noticed that on my webinars, when people, you know, don't turn on their cameras and they don't participate. And I sense that some people may feel that this is great. This is an easy way for them to just stay below the radar, do the need full and get on with it. But I don't see that as a benefit because I know that we, as human beings are hard wired emotionally. There's research, there's Nobel prizes that have been awarded to those researchers that prove that at the core were emotional beings. We need to connect with one another and with COVID happening and us working remotely and being physically separated and being physically distance, I suspect that it's even more important for us now to really communicate, to really turn on our cameras, to really ask questions and to try our best, to give eye contact and communicate with people in as much, a way as possible that we used to when we weren't separated physically like this.Steve Rush: Yeah, and I think it's a really great observation by the way, too. It starts of course, and ends with what we've started to talk about a little earlier on, which is just conversations and the more conversations you have as you call it, your linchpin unlocks the rest of communication.Luis Gonzales: Yes.Steve Rush: So, the next part of the show, Luis, we get to turn the lens on you now and we get to hack into your leadership mind. So, first thing I'd like to ask of you is what would you say your top three leadership hacks are?Luis Gonzales: Oh, the first leadership that I have that works for me that I want to share with anybody else. We just talked about it. Connect with others, your team members, your colleagues,The people who report to you, the people who don't report to you, your leader. Connect with them on a human level. And what do I mean by connect? What do you mean by connect Luis? Just what I was saying a few minutes ago, if you're on a Zoom call, if you're on a conference call, when you have the opportunity to do so, when the kids aren't running around in the background, when your spouse is not asleep on the couch or whatever reasons you have for not turning on your camera, when you have the opportunity to do so, turn on your camera, give eye contact and connect with others around you in the organization, on your team, and get curious as I've said earlier, but not the business as usual. Get curious, not the agenda. Here's what we're here to talk about today. It's an investment in time. I know we're all busy, but spend some time at the beginning of your calls to just check in personally, just as we used to do in the office, in the coffee room, how was your weekend? How are things going with everything on your plate? What's keeping you up at night? How are the kids, all that stuff, right? Well, that's been missing. Now that we're kind of new reality. So, I encourage people to do that, connect on a human level. And we all know what that connect means with the individuals that we're connecting with.Remember the conversation is of equal value to the relationship. So, what I mean by that is. if I withhold something from the conversation, if I withhold cantor from the conversation, if I withhold curiosity from the conversation, if I will withhold going deep in our conversations, if I keep my conversations surface at a surface level, my relationship will also be surface. My relationship will not be very candid. If I'm having unreal conversations with people around me, fake conversations around me, saying what I don't really feel. Saying what I don't really think.Well, then my relationship will also be unreal. So that's my first leadership hack, connect with people.Number two, model accountability, model vulnerability. As leaders we all want our people to be accountable. We want people to take responsibility for what they're supposed to take responsibility for, but it's been my firm belief and my experience over these many years, accountability, this idea of accountability cannot be trained and it cannot be mandated. It's a personal choice that we have that we make. If it's to be it's up to me, given the current unfortunate situation, I find myself in. Given the current situation, whatever it is I find myself in, what can I do to move this in a positive direction, that is accountability, that can't be trained. It can't be mandated. It can be observed and people can see leaders model it and follow through with it. So, leaders and everybody for that matter. Model accountability, own up to where you make mistakes, jump in where you know, something needs to be done. And don't ask whose job was this? Who's accountable for this, oh, this isn't my job. This isn't my lane, stay in your lane. None of that, go for it. Do the needful, do what needs to be done. And when you model it, people will observe it. And most people will follow along with that.Third is give ownership and accountability to your people. When I say your people, this is for leaders, of course. Give ownership and accountability. And I learned that way back at the Ritz-Carlton. For example, when we were at the Ritz, if we had a dissatisfied, yes, we would call that a guest opportunity. Even when I was a bus boy, or even when I was a waiter, if a guest came up to me complaining about something, they were unhappy. I could take care of that situation and turn that guest around right then and there, it didn't matter my rank, it didn't matter my title. It didn't matter my role. That's ownership and accountability. And we were able to turn those guests around on our own without having to call a manager, going through any necessary unneeded steps, I should say. So, in the corporate world, we all have teams. We're all part of teams. If you're leader of a team, give ownership to your people, let them shine, let them rise. And sometimes even let them fall on their knees. Sometimes my leaders let me do that, but I learned that way. But celebrate the successes, give ownership, give accountability to your people, allow them to have accountability and celebrate the successes. That builds trust, that strengthens the relationship. And that is an investment in returns later on down the road.Steve Rush: Some super learning in there Luis, particularly that whole one around accountability and ownership because it doesn't cost anything, does it?Luis Gonzales: No.Steve Rush: To take on that responsibility, to get things fixed and all too often organizations handed off to somebody else. And that's where you lose impact and you lose customer relationships.Luis Gonzales: That's right, absolutely right.Steve Rush: So, the next part of this show, we call it Hack to Attack. You affectionately just referred to it as maybe fallen on your knee. So, a time in your life or your career or your work where something hasn't gone well, it's maybe not gone to plan, but as a result of the experience, we know use that as a lesson in our life that serves as well. What's your Hack to Attack?Luis Gonzales: Well, my Hack to Attack, not too long ago, I worked for an organization. It was in the last 10 years. I had a very large shoes to fill, large boots to fill, a lot of responsibilities. I was in charge of learning and development for North America and South America. Living in India, my team in the United States. So, I was reluctant to delegate. I was taking everything on my own and I was not managing my time wisely. And consequently, my health suffered after about a year and a half of that, I reached, you know, I had been burning the candle at both ends. It was awful in terms of the stress that I went through, the headaches I got, the weight that I gained, the bad skin problems that I got through all of that. But now, as I reflect on that, what have I learned from that? And what do I do differently now to avoid that? Especially with the role I have with Fierce is I delegate.There are two reasons why I delegate. Number one, obviously, to free my plate up so that I can, you know, add, you know, different types of projects or more important things onto my plate, making time for those things. But also, the flip side of that is I'm developing the people around me by delegating, giving them more responsibility. So, it's not just taking it off my plate, but it's actually with an interest to develop others. And so now I delegate a lot more than I used to. I used to be afraid to delegate. Didn't like it, but now I know how to have that conversation with people around me, they're willingly, hopefully will you know, accept what I'm offering to them as it, you know, will help them in their career. And then of course the time management falls into that as well. And that was a big challenge for me. I would say for up until about five years ago, when I joined Fierce, learn how to have a delegation conversation.Steve Rush: And sometimes it's getting into that burnout zone. That is the learnings, the real learning to make you realize that there are things that are still within your control that you can fix.Luis Gonzales: Yeah, and if I can just say this really quickly, we have so many justifications for not delegating. Some of them are valid. Like I can just do it quicker myself. It'll take time to train them to do it. So, I might as well just do it myself. They may make mistakes and I'm responsible for it. So, I might as well just do it myself and more.Steve Rush: And that not sustainable though, isn’t it? That's the thing.Luis Gonzales: Nope, absolutely not. I found that out the hard way.Steve Rush: The last thing that we're going to do with you today, Luis is we're going to give you an opportunity to do some time travel and you get to go back to bump into Luis at 21 and give them some advice. What's your advice to him?Luis Gonzales: Wow, you know, I often do this, a very reflective person. So, my advice to my 21-year-old self, imagine I'm applying for a job at the Ritz Carlton man, and I'm just a young chap and I'm a little nervous about this. Here's what I would tell myself. Number one, follow your heart. Well, you know what? I always follow my heart, Steve, but I'm going to add to that. Follow your heart and don't forget, use your logic. You have logic there for a reason. So why I'm giving myself advice? My 21 self-advice on this is because I've been like a Peter pan all my life, you know, flitting about the planet and that's been great. I've had some awesome experiences. I got a great career, but I often made decisions solely based on my emotions and I didn't use logic wisely. So there has to be a balance there, at least for me. So, number one, follow your heart. But remember use your head too, heart and head are your best friends. They go together.Steve Rush: They do.Luis Gonzales: Two, stop thinking and caring about what others might think. I've always been a people pleaser and people wouldn't even think that would be advice that I would give myself because people see me as just someone who always does what he wants to do. But deep down inside myself, I know, you know, I'm always concerned about what other people might think about my decisions, my actions, et cetera. So, stop that. Just follow your passions, use your logic and go for it. The third one is you can't please everyone. So be okay with that.Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly.  Luis Gonzales: Not every everyone's going to like your decision, not everyone's going to back you up. Not everyone's going to agree with you. It's part of life. Get over it.Steve Rush: Great advice, Luis. So, I would love for our conversation to last longer and carry on. And we've had a number of conversations over the last few months and then have enjoyed immensely speaking with you. The folk, listening to us today who want to carry that conversation on with you. Where's the best place we can send them?Luis Gonzales: Please, first go to our Fierce website to the podcast tab. That's where this podcast will be hosted and others there. That's a good place to start. So, the website is www.fierceinc.com F.I.E.R.C.E.I.N.C.com from there, you'll see the resort resources tab. We have tons of resources that are free, where you can take a deeper dive into everything we've been talking about today. The second way is I'd love to connect and expand my network. Our network on LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/Luis Gonzalez, all one word, L.U.I.S G.O.N.Z.A.L.E.S Those are the ways to connect and continue the conversation.Steve Rush: We'll make sure they're in the show notes too Luis, so that people can head straight over.Luis Gonzales: Awesome, thank you, Steve.Steve Rush: I just wanted to say, thank you ever so much, Luis for taking some time out of what is a busy time for you to join us today on the podcast. So, thanks for being on The Leadership Hacker.Luis Gonzales: Thank you for having me, Steve. It was a real pleasure. I enjoyed it. Thank you.Steve Rush: Thanks Luis. Closing Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.  

Nick Cavuoto Founder at CavuotoX, he is a high-performance business coach, speaker and an entrepreneur mentor, we can learn loads from Nick in this episode including:How to unlock your calling and mandate on lifeWhat Metaphysics is and how we can use it to grow personallyWhy relationships can be like rocketshipsHow being in a mood of judgment will stop you from learningJoin our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Nick below:Nick’s Website: https://www.nickcavuoto.comTwitter: https://twitter.com/nickcavuotoInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nickcavuoto/Nick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickcavuoto/ Full Transcript Below  ----more---- Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Our special guest on today's show is Nick Cavuoto. He's a speaker, an entrepreneur mentor, and human potential expert who specializes in deep coaching, personal branding and transformational leadership. But before we get the chance to speak with Nick, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: It was Stephen MR Covey who most famously quoted in his habit number five, seek first understand then be understood. And I'm sure that any leader listening to this would subscribe to that. But what if your team were not humans, but primates? Well, that's exactly what we're exploring in some light-hearted news today, understanding what some leaders did in a research facility in Finland. Monkeys in a zoo in Finland have shown significant preference for traffic sound over their native natural jungle noises, researchers have found. A tunnel filled with sensors was installed in a monkey enclosure in core Korkeasaari Zoo in Helsinki. This allowed the white face saki monkeys to choose whether they listen to a playlist of traffic noises, natural and nature sounds and rainfall, and also had a choice of Zen music and dance music. Dr. Hirskyj-Douglas, a researcher at Aalto University in Finland said, “we thought they would much more enjoy the calming sound of Zen music, but they were actually triggered by more traffic sounds”.The traffic playlist actually came out as most popular choice amongst the monkeys who were also grooming themselves and getting excited as the sounds of traffic were passing by.Kirsi Pynnonen-Oudman the zoo research coordinator said the sounds of the road music mimic in some ways, the natural way they communicate. She said in the wild, the animals use high-pitched hissing squeaking and croaking noise to stay in contact indicating that they may hear those similar noise sound in traffic too. The research was an experiment to understand the characteristics of primates as part of the technology that can be used to improve the wellbeing of animals in captivity. And according to the researchers, this is the first time the sound experiment has been completed in a full controlled environment. And they hope that the findings will lead to understanding how to stimulate and positively influenced the environment in enclosures in the future. The long-term plan is that one day they have an ambition that the animals can actually control their own lighting, temperature and sounds in their own environment. And the technology is very much open and they're looking at ways in which they can start to bridge into that area. But first started with understanding what was most important to them. As part of the next step in the research, the team are planning to install screens with tunnels, for monkeys to watch and explore their visual environment too, and despite popular belief, they do not eat bananas. Instead they feed on seeds, nuts and insects, and some fruits and no monkeys were harmed in the experiment. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you do have any news, stories or interesting facts that you'd love our listeners to hear, please get in touch with us. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Nick Cavuoto is our special guest on today's show. He's a high-performance business coach, an entrepreneur mentor who focuses on mindset, personal brand and human experiences, as well as leadership transformation. Nick, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Nick Cavuoto: Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it. Steve Rush: So glad we got you on the show. You've got some really interesting stories and great perspectives on the world, but your life didn't start out in the way that you have landed, right? So, you start out as a church pastor, tell us a little bit about the journey from church pastor to entrepreneur transformation expert? Nick Cavuoto: That's awesome, man. Thank you. Yeah, you know, it's a pretty wild, you know, shift. Going from essentially being in the non-profit world and being in a sector of where you're really focused on human potential and transformation and the channel or the angle that's used to do that is through spirituality, and so it's interesting. A lot of people kind of do it the opposite way, right? Where they, you know, build a great business and do all these great things. And then they get you know, philanthropy work or whatever it may be in order for them to really contribute and give back. But you know early on in life my situation was just unique, you know, and when I got into my career path, by that time I had failed out of college twice. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. And so, I said, well, I might as well, you know, show up and serve and help others. I'm so, so grateful that I did that. You know, I really got into the people business. It's arguable that, you know, as far as my peers, I understand humans more than probably 99% of people because I've been exposed to high levels of whether it's trauma in people's life, or, you know, the deeper desires that are in their heart. Things they really want to accomplish in life, and also the complexities of relationships and complexities of calling or what do I want to accomplish? What's my purpose? Those conversations for me, it happened in my early twenties all the way through my mid late twenties. And just to give you context, I was coaching people on divorce when I was 24 years old with parents who were 30 years happily married. So, I was exposed to a lot of learning and a lot of experiences when it came to, you know, individuals and the way they see the world and the way that they want to really position themselves for greatness. And I'll just mention that it was a wild ride and I learned a lot. Learned, just a tremendous amount about really what makes people tick. And that's just been the greatest contribution. Steve Rush: It's an awesome induction into the world of human beings. Isn't it? Because you're getting taken into an environment that most people just wouldn't experience at a very young age, I guess. Nick Cavuoto: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was actually, I was raised in the church. My father was a drug dealer until he was about 30 years old. And just had a life-changing experience of where he just made a massive shift in his life and said, you know, I'm going to do things the right way now. And that was really the catalytic shift for us. I mean, honestly at three years old, I remember being, you know, underneath the pew waking up and in these like church revivals, you know, things happening. At like, you know, midnight. So, it's like one of those things where I, you know, just had these experiences and was just part of really an incredible movement which really helped me when I shifted things into the business world, because then when it came to marketing, I understood how people think, how people feel. I understood Maslow's, I understood how the Ascension happens from people who are foundationally. You know, just looking for the basic core needs of live all the way to the point of self-actualization of not really caring about what people think or say about you, but living out your truth in the present. And that was just an amazing part of the first three decades of my life that I was able to see. I'm incredibly grateful, and the way that translated into business was post, you know, ministry. I ended up working for start-ups and then I went from start-ups into fortune 500 in Corporate America. And from there just went on to building my own businesses. And you know, my father was an entrepreneur to the truest sense in some ways. And my grandfather also owned several businesses and his father was a farmer in the States. So, we have over a hundred years of entrepreneurship in our bloodline. And my mother has been an entrepreneur for the last 30 years or so as well. So, it's cool that I've just had this legacy of entrepreneurship and also human potential that have consistently showed up my life over and over and over again. Steve Rush: That’s and some experience. And I guess having that to draw upon gives you almost the unconscious permission to almost do anything and try anything. Nick Cavuoto: Absolutely. Steve Rush: Which of course is the key tenant, isn't it? Of entrepreneurial-ism, it's that whole ability that nothing's too great and nothing's too big. Nick Cavuoto: Yeah, a hundred percent man. At five years old, animals drowned in a pool, which allowed me to confront my greatest fear very early on in life. And when that situation happened, you know, it's one of those things where when you're fighting for your life at such a young age, and then you go in the opposite direction, you know, and understand the power of fear, you know, none of us really understand our own superpower until we can see it used for good and for evil. Steve Rush: Yeah. Nick Cavuoto: Just think of Star Wars, right? It's a great example, but like how using the force, right. It can be used in a good way or in a bad way. And that's the same thing, you know, that I see showing up in business and for people is like, you know, there's this polarization of like, what's possible for us, but also what can cripple us. And that's when one of the things that I've just always attributed to a lot of the success that I've started to experience has been through. Being able to confront my greatest fear at such a young age and by 12, I actually just confronted it and got over it. And actually, my grandmother is from Colchester. And so, you know, she was a war bride. She married my grandfather during world war II and came back to the States and she didn't really have a temperament for a weak thinking, because of all that she had been through. She was the one who actually helped me overcome my greatest fear, which now is attributed to a massive part of what I believe again is just my ability to show up in the world in such powerful way. Steve Rush: Super, love that story. Thanks for sharing that. Nick Cavuoto: Certainly. Steve Rush: It hasn't always been gloried for you. So, you were at a stage in your entrepreneurial life where things were going really well, you're drawing down $150,000 dollars a month and then stuff went wrong to the point where you couldn't even afford a $30 dollar meal.Tell us a little bit about how that happened and how you bounced back? Nick Cavuoto: Certainly, man. So, alignment is the big key here, you know, you can go build a business, you know, I built, you know, nearly $2 million dollar business on accident, okay. And I don't mention that a lot. Meaning, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, so what'd you do to have great success. And I'm like, I'd like to actually talk about my failures. There's a lot more to learn there. So, but you know, I was somewhat of an accidental entrepreneur. When I left ministry, I didn't have a degree. I had forsaken University in order to really focus on ministry. And so, I had to kind of retool the whole map and re strategize around what I wanted to do and how I wanted to, you know, find significance and how I wanted to really show up in the world. And so, I built this amazing company really, really fast and less than 18 months we quadrupled the company. I had a few friends who were working for me and it was fun. It was a lot of fun, but always the question was around growth. What are we going to do to grow to the next stage? Who do we need to hire? What consultants do we need to find? And that was really what our ideal, you know, kind of scenario was. Man, we build a company and you're hiring growth consultants right out of the gate, because it's just like, you know, when it rains, you know, you accept it, the harvest that comes after. And so, we planted the seeds and the rain came and it worked. And for me, I fell out of alignment. I fell out of really what I felt like I was supposed to do in life. And that's one way that life will kind of, I say it this way, God will either, he'll poke you, then he'll push you. Then he'll prod you, then he'll punch you. And that's kind of what I experienced in life, where I got punched. Because I was not where I was supposed to be. And I did know that deep down. I'm like running an agency, a marketing agency for the rest of my life is not going to be the thing. So, I made a decision, you know, to close down that business. But yeah, I mean, when you're running at a high of a run rate and you have a huge team and all these things are happening, it just takes like one small thing. That 1% shift that, one loss of focus to really bring the whole thing down, and that's what happened. It's a fracture in relationship with one of the guys who started with me about two to three years after I had gotten going. I hired a guy, 25 years I had known him for. He's one of my best friends and hired him really to take over operationally, different parts of the business. And there was a fracture in our relationship, unfortunately. And you know, he wanted to be at a different position than where he played best. It's like in soccer or in football, if you're an amazing goal and you play well with your hands, and you're the slowest guy in the team, you probably should not be at the front of the pack, playing striker. And that's kind of the situation or in basketball, if you're five foot six, you probably don't play Center. You know, so that's kind of what was happening. I'm like, listen, man, you're really good in this position at point guard because of your height, your agility, your quickness, but like going in this position is probably not the best idea for you. You're going to be playing against guys who are seven feet tall, and it's just not the same. It's not just the same paradigm. And unfortunately, because of that he actually ended up leaving the company. Stealing the client list, undercutting our services, selling against our services at half costs. Took the leads list, you know, everything I had spent, you know, a hundred hours a week developing. And honestly, I'm not even kidding you. I was married, I was full-time in school. I was full-time working. I was, part-time working for the first two and a half years of my business when I was developing it. So, when I say that I've put in the work, a lot of people don't do it to that level. Oh, and we had a kid by the way, in that timeframe as well. A lot of people don't put in what's truly required to be like, yeah, I work 80 hours a week and you assess it, and it's like 42. I was really putting in the time to build the business in the right way. And unfortunately, because of that fracture, it was actually the greatest blessing. Its stinks I lost the relationship with him. And that's something that's always been hard because he's just a great friend, but in reality, looking back, it was the thing that launched me into my current state, and I'm just so grateful for it. Steve Rush: And like you said, you learn more from when things go wrong than sometimes when they go well, and relationships is now core foundation of the work that you do. And we're going to get onto that in a little bit, but for those folks listening, just give us, maybe a flavour of some of the work that you currently focus on. Nick Cavuoto: Absolutely, so I coach high achieving entrepreneurs and I helped them develop an unshakable core, that's the big idea. So, there's these skills that are required. There is beliefs, there's accountability, there's mentorship. And there's also specific practices that are required to empower what I believe is a resilient life. And that just boils down to the big idea that I believe that we all have a mandate. We all have a mandate. And what that is a purpose with a calling and it has some level of spiritual significance to it, of where you've got to feel like we're here for a reason. That we didn't just evolve from a salamander and just turn into who we are today, but there's actually intent and purpose behind your life. And I just think for myself, and it's in my own humble opinion, that's the way that things operate. So, whether you're an entrepreneur, you're an executive, you're a high-level professional expert. The one thing that I know that ties us all together, is the desire to have more influence and impact, and yeah, the income stuff that's important too. But what I've found is through the acceleration of entrepreneurs, of helping them get to the highest level of success. When I go into deep coaching, which is like inner work on the inside of them, and really start finding things out, you know, income is just a feedback loop that says that they're doing a great job. Steve Rush: Right, yeah. Nick Cavuoto: It's really not the central focus of what they do, although they might want to grow a great business and have a lot of resources. It's really not the core thing. And that's why I don't include it in the big idea. Steve Rush: I guess, income is a by-product as well, isn't it? Nick Cavuoto: Absolutely. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And so, when we get into like the personal branding and marketing side of things, that's another pillar as well as high performance functionality. You know, I try to get people out of their head and into their heart, into their gut, so that they can start making decisions from intuitive state, which a lot of times I tell people, you know, you already have all the answers that you need. And in fact, you have all the resources around you, through your relationships with the people around you. It's just that you don't see it that way. There's an old ancient proverb that says that if you chase two rabbits, you catch none. Steve Rush: I love that. Nick Cavuoto: And that's the big idea. People are chasing all these different things. I want this, I want that. I want the lifestyle. I want the money. I want the influence. You know, you actually have to switch that entire engagement. If you've ever seen a stray cat and you have some food for that stray cat, you want to give it, all you have to do is bend down in your knee and summon the cat. And that's exactly the way that we need to show up in entrepreneurship. We actually need to bring forth the things that need to be present in our lives versus feeling like we're always on this quest to chase the next thing. Steve Rush: I love the fact that you mentioned you coach people from an intuitive state. My role as a coach, I often get people to pay attention to their intuition because for me, it's the kind of uncoded, unconscious messaging that's already there. How do you really tap into that intuition and get people to rely on it? Nick Cavuoto: First of all, I try to get people into a state of, you know, there's a lot of different philosophies out there in the world, but I try to get people in the state of following, what Nikola Tesla said. He's just one of my heroes. He's an incredible, incredible guy. And I think his teachings are just so powerful, and he said this. He said, if you wish to understand the universe, think in the terms of energy, frequency, and vibration, I'm going to say it one more time. If you wish to understand the universe, think in the terms of energy, frequency, and vibration. And what I see as energy is like the way of being, it's like reading a room. EQ is another way to describe energy. I think again, if I'm keeping this like super one-on-one. Steve Rush: Yeah. Nick Cavuoto: Another way, frequency is through what we hear, right? So, frequency has to do with what we're tuning into and how we're positioned. And if we're, you know, vibrating at a high state. So, in vibration, the high state vibration, I think of cell towers, 5g, they're shorter, limited bandwidth, right? So there there's more intensity over a smaller distance, versus if you're on satellite, they're longer wavelengths. Like over longer stretches of time and space. And so, these are the things that we want to be thinking about. So, when it comes to intuition, I'm going like, how's your energy? What are your drainers? What are your drivers? What's suffocating you? What are you around? What's your environment? A lot of times we can make these small shifts and it can start changing everything. The way that someone thinks is what ends up becoming, right? The big idea of like what you focus on grows. Steve Rush: Sure, yeah. Nick Cavuoto: And so, I tell people all the time, if you're in a position right now of where you're in a season, that's changing, change is hard. Now, if you're also growing, growth is hard, but the hardest thing you'll ever have to do in your life is being stuck somewhere that you're not supposed to be. So when I try to unlock people and get them out of a position of where they're feeling constriction or where they're feeling frustrated or where they're feeling like, you know, why me? What's going on in my life, or if they want to grow, honestly, some people come to me and they're like, things are going really well. I just want to go higher. It's like I have the blueprint that helps them go from, let's say, you know, solo entrepreneur from 20 to a 100K a month. And some of them have been able to do that literally in the matter of 14 days. And it's a shift, there's a shift that has to happen in the way that they're seen. And the greatest contribution that I have as a coach is to be a mirror. Steve Rush: Yeah. Nick Cavuoto: I just reflect back to them what they already know to be true. Steve Rush: You applied another level of thinking and lens on this. So, you're quite big on metaphysics. Those folks are not sure what metaphysics are. Just tell us a little bit about what metaphysics are, but how you use it specifically? Nick Cavuoto: Yeah, well, certainly it's the core thesis that I talked about with Tesla just a moment ago. But I think it might be easier to grab this conceptually if we think in the terms of movies, okay. So, go here with me for a minute. If we combine the Matrix with Avatar and Interstellar, just to name a few. This can kind of give us a visual concept of how we exist Interdimensionally. Stranger Things is also another way to look at this if you're a big Netflix fan. We're mixing the past and the present and the future, we're mixing awareness from consciousness. So, what we're consciously aware of versus the things that we don't see, and then also the idea that we are all connected, that we're all connected to one another and everything around us is connected as well. And through that big idea, there's an extension of this vastness of like, oh my goodness, there's just like, we are just this blue inky dot on this huge map. And there's so much more around us. So that's really, the big idea is like, if you go watch those movies and look for the underlying big ideas when it comes to, you know, how we can exist in different levels? Another way to explain this part of inner dimensionality or, you know, kind of like these higher levels of consciousness is that, you know, it said that, you know, most people operate at a 3D consciousness, so it's kind of the level playing field for humanity. You know, when you go up to, let's say a 5D level, this is where you might have quantum experiences. And so, a lot of people who have seen things supernaturally, maybe you've experienced something supernaturally. Something that's just completely out of the ordinary. That's just the big idea of, you know, that there's more around us than what we see. And the Sixth Sense, right? There's another way to see it through that movie. There is so many different illustrations to this. Steve Rush: Where's the best place we can start tapping into that level of consciousness? Nick Cavuoto: Well, honestly, I think it starts with the inner work. You know, I didn't start really learning about this larger concept until I got into therapy for myself. And you know, that might sound crazy, like, okay, so now this guy's a quack using therapy. Not at all, you know, I think I'm committed to the highest version of who I am. I'm doing the inner work now because in five to seven years, when I show up on the biggest stages in the world, I want to make sure I'm good that I don't lose my marriage in the process. That I don't lose my kids in the process. I'm doing it as a defence play. And that's the bigger idea around what this whole thing really bakes out too, is that when you start seeing more, there's more to address. And so, when I was going through the process of saying, I want to advance the way that I show up in the world. Metaphysics was one of those things that just helped me understand spirituality at a greater level.You know, there's a scripture that talks about this this big idea around basically that we do not fight against things here in a 3D reality, but we're fighting against things in a 5D reality. And so when you think about, you know, the concept of, you know, angels, or, you know, even forces of darkness and all these different things, again, just put it in the context of Star Wars and it's acceptable as a metaphor, but really, you know, I started to feel like, you know, I saw people who were afflicted by things that just didn't seem normal when I was a kid. And also, when I was in ministry, I saw people who were afflicted by things spiritually. And what I understood was that there's more to this picture than what we see. There's more to the collective ability of how we think and feel than what we see. And that's what allowed me to go to that higher level of saying, there's got to be something more. So, I mean, I would just look at, you know, taking the first step of just starting, get on YouTube and start learning about this. And there's one thing that I want to mention as you start watching or consuming or learning around these concepts. So as long as you judge, you cannot learn. Steve Rush: Wise words. Nick Cavuoto: So, if you are looking at a situation or watching somebody or even listening to me and you are in judgment, you will learn nothing. And it just will delay the process of you getting to the next level. So that's up to you, but I'll just give you that key. It's a total master key, there is so much in life. You know, if you're in a mood of judgment, you cannot learn and you cannot find the greater things that are in life through judgment, only through curiosity. Steve Rush: I love that. In fact, I'm going to write it down and I will quote you. I will quote you, love it. So, you're big on relationships. Having spent so much time studying them, coaching them and supporting people through different relationship lenses. You have this great mantra, which I love called relationships are rocket ships. So, I'd love to learn how did the mantra come about and how do you use it? Nick Cavuoto: I was in a mastermind in San Diego, in California. And I remember this was at the end of, well in the fall of 2019. So, about a year ago, and I was sitting around all these incredible people that for the previous 32 years of my life, I didn't know. And there was more growth in the matter of, you know, 60 to 90 days through this mastermind group than there was ever in my life. Like that period of time was so accelerated. And I just look around and I'm like, man, relationships are rocket ships. I just remember saying that to the group. And they're all like, Whoa, you know, tell me more. So, the idea was that, you know, when you get around the right people and you spend time with people who truly want to see you succeed, it's not about competitions, about collaboration. That you get around people who understand you. Who are willing to speak life into you, people who are willing to put you on their stages, my mentor and my business coach Mike Kim, and he runs the largest personal brand podcast called Brand You with Mike Kim and just phenomenal human being, and I've known him for the last decade or so. He put me in front of some of the most prominent people in the internet marketing space and also in the leadership space with John Maxwell, with Todd Herman who wrote The Alter Ego, Billy Jean, who's a huge paid media and agency owner. And he's done a lot of incredible things, internet marketing, as well as Chris Ducker from Youpreneur in the UK. He just connected me to all these people. And I walked away, you know, from an opportunity at a live event with over a hundred thousand dollars in proposals that were out from like two or three days. And it was like serving the moment that I was in because at that season of my life I was really thinking about coaching. But for that season, that second half of 2019, I was also doing a lot of content production because content is one of my super powers. And so video content production. So, it was just amazing that when you get around the right people, the right things happen. And it will launch you into a totally different stratosphere of the people that you're connected to, who they're connected to and how you can achieve what you want faster, but yet with integrity. And that's the big idea on relationships or rocket ships, and that's how it happened. Steve Rush: That’s neat, love it. So, this part of the show, we're going to attend the leadership lens on you, and I'm going to hack into your leadership mind and start to drag out some lessons that we can share with our listeners. First base of like to go with the Nick, is for you to share with us your top three leadership hacks? Nick Cavuoto: Yeah man, number one, find a mentor. I have five coaches in my life right now. And I'll tell you it's been the best investment that I've ever made in my life. Find a mentor, find a business coach and someone who can lead you to where they are. It's not a theory, it needs to be practical, but you need to be supported in a very real way. So that's number one, find a mentor. Number two, never lie, never lie. This is one of my, you know, golden principles around personal branding is to never not tell the truth. Because it will always come back. Now of course our parents, they teach us, you know, don't lie, tell the truth, all these things, but in business, I mean, it has the ability to, in a microsecond destroy your entire empire if you have one or enough to take you out, because you realize that you have a lack of integrity, and those who are advancing their level of awareness will increase the level of responsibility and the way they show up in the world of which then requires communication to say, I screwed up. It also fuels imposter syndrome. So, it's incredibly important to never lie. And then the last one is to give unconditionally, you know, I live a life to be a gift to humanity. That is my entire thesis on why I'm here is to be a gift for a small 1% shift in people's lives. For me, I could be in a room with 10,000 people and I care about one person. It's just whoever needs it the most that day. And I focus on that. And, you know, I think that what you focus on grows and the ability to double down on just one individual that I can lock eyes with, if it's a live event, or if it's an experience or just a conversation, someone I can show up for and just give unconditionally and look for ways to give, look for ways to pay it forward. I think it's one of the most abundant universal principles. It's the ultimate boomerang of being able to give unconditionally without expectation. Yet it's a way of being not a way of doing, so it's a way of being, which is like, that's the way that I show up in the world. And if you do it to get, it won't work. If you do it because that's who you are. And it's just how you handle life, then yeah, just get ready for the rewards to come your way. Steve Rush: The last one you talk about is really significant because I hear many people talk about something very similar, but how do you really step away from giving and providing insights, information, versus I am 100% in that giving and gifting space. Nick Cavuoto: It is through Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You know, when you realize that you don't need anything from anyone, that's when the game shifts, you know, cause you're enslaved to whoever you need something from. If you need love then you are enslaved to your partner, if you need money, then you're enslaved to your clients or prospective clients or to your marketing strategy. You know, if you need acceptance, then you are enslaved to your community or wherever you find belonging. So, once you realize that standing on your own two feet is all that's required. And the only thing that you need is your own clear connection with yourself and with your source, that's the big shift. I mean, I'm accelerating to the highest level, but in reality, you know, that's it, and a simple way to take a first step in that is to give the thing that you need the most right now. So if you need money, go give someone else money because it's going to hurt a little bit. Don't get me wrong, but the shift that happens in you, that's what needs to happen. The laws are universal and that's what everything is run by. You know, the idea of reciprocity. It's a universal law. What you reap is what you sow. So, I would tell somebody who's in a situation right now, who in a situation where they're stuck or frustrated or feeling like, man, I'd love to give, but I don't have anything to give. Do you have a smile? Do you have a handshake? Do you have a phone where you could call someone and just encourage them? You know, if you feel downtrodden, if you feel frustrated, that's what I'm talking about. Steve Rush: That's amazing. Love it. The next part of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is where something in your life or your work hasn't gone as we'd intended, maybe it's even gone completely south. But as a result of the experience though, we've now used it in our life and our work as a positive, what will be your Hack to Attack? Nick Cavuoto: I think the whole idea around going from running $150,000 dollar a month business to not being able to afford a $30 dollar meal, that big concept has probably been the biggest, you know, hack that's happened in my career. And so, there's a totally different way now of how I view money. I think money is the consequences of doing what you love well, and there's also energy around money. Meaning it likes to go into places where it has consistency, safety and where it also has flow, like water, like a river, you know, it has to have movement. Otherwise there's stagnation, what's a stagnated river? It's a swamp. And so, money has to always be shifting and moving around. And I think I got into a place when things started going south of the business of where I started holding on very tightly, you know, I constricted my energy, which caused the river to stop flowing, which caused the money to stop flowing.So, I would say that like, that's been the greatest lesson, cause the way that I show up now, I mean this year for our coaching programs, the first time we launched our core coaching program, we did over six figures in sales and in less than five days. So, there's a high level of understanding of what was broken before will not stay broken in the future and the way that we view resources or the continuum of resources and how they come in and out has a lot more to do with stewardship then, you know, your ability to sell. So, I would say, steward, what do you have well, keep, your hands open, better as an open hand than a closed fist. That's the big Hack to Attack Steve Rush: I suppose it is also just trying to resist the natural learned behaviours we have in times of pressure, right? And going with that flow that you talked about. Nick Cavuoto: Absolutely, and it also has a lot to do with not judging yourself. I'm pretty self-critical. You probably wouldn't hear it from this conversation, but again, dark in the light, right. So, the reason why I'm so optimistic is because I've been so hard on myself in the past. Steve Rush: Yeah. Nick Cavuoto: The reason why I see that there's endless opportunities are because I felt defeated to the point of there's no way out of this situation. So yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, it's based on these experiences that typically the hardest things in your life, me sitting across from this dude and getting my card declined at a diner, that's one of those experiences where you go like, this is never going to happen again. What do I need to do to ensure that reality is true? And so yeah, your greatest victories is definitely in a place of, you know, where you've also had a grand defeat. Steve Rush: It definitely is, definitely is. And the last thing we want to do with you Nick, is to send you on a bit of time travel. So, you get to go back and give yourself some advice when you 21 now. So, what's your advice to Nick at 21? Nick Cavuoto: Honestly, just keep going, just keep going. There's another way that I would frame that as you're asking it and it would be, you've already won. I think that I'm just living a life where I'm catching up to a spot that I think is this, you know, place of like achievement. And the thing that I've really tried to remind myself of is that I've already won. Like the battle's already over, you know, the trophies already been handed out or the hill has been conquered and I've already won. And so just play like you've already won, you know? And that'd be my advice to myself, for sure. Steve Rush: Very neat. So, for folks listening to this today, I suspect they're thinking to themselves, how do I get to find out a bit more about Nick's work, whereas his website and how can I connect with him? Where would you like us to send them when we are done? Nick Cavuoto: Yeah, so you can check out my website nickcavuoto.com, That's N.I.C.K C.A.V as in victory, U.O.T.com and also on Instagram. And it's just my name as well. So, check those out. I'm on Facebook. I have a seven figure mentors’ group on Facebook. So, you can check that out as well, but primarily check out my website. You can get everything from there. And then certainly if you have any questions or you want to hit me up on Instagram, I was just on entrepreneurs, on fire a couple of weeks ago. And my goodness, I've gotten hundreds of messages and it's been a lot of fun to be able to collaborate and hop on calls with people and just learn their stories. So yeah, that's the big idea there. Connected on Instagram. I'd love to connected with you. Steve Rush: Great stuff, and we'll also put those links in our show notes Nick. So, when people are finished listening to this, they can head straight over and connect with you there. Nick Cavuoto: Epic. Steve Rush: From my perspective, I just wanted to say, we've have spoken a few times now, Nick, and every time I speak with you, I just get this rush of energy. So, whatever you're doing is working and I'm feeling that today. So, thank you for being part of our journey on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Nick Cavuoto: Steve is my absolute pleasure, man. Appreciate you so much, brother. Steve Rush: Thank you very much, Nick. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.

Dr. Rob McKenna is the founder of WiLD Leaders, Inc, the WiLD Foundation, and author of Composed: The Heart and Science of Leading Under Pressure. What you can learn in this episode:Why vulnerability is essential for great leadershipHow “Whole and Intentional Leader Development” can help youThe reason paradoxical leadership tension existsUnderstanding why you are here and a sense of purpose is key to leadership successJoin our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about WiLD Leaders and Dr Rob below:WiLD Leaders Website: https://www.wildleaders.orgThe WiLD Foundation: https://www.thewildfoundation.orgBook: Composed: The Heart And Science Of Leading Under PressureTwitter: https://twitter.com/DrRobMcKennaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/wildleaders/Rob on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drrobmckenna/ Full Transcript Below----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Our special guest on today's show is Dr. Rob McKenna. He's the founder and chief executive officer at Wild Leaders. Recently named among the top 30 most influential IO psychologists in the world by Forbes magazine. He's a speaker, a coach, and the author of the book Composed: The Heart And Science Of Leading Under Pressure. But before we get a chance to speak with Rob, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: In the news today, we explore the notion of human capital and whether you consider it to be an expense or an investment. So, what actually is human capital? Well, it's the measure of economic value that an employee provides to through their knowledge, skills and capabilities. And on average human capital costs are almost 70% of most companies operating expenses. Most leaders would recognize that investing in their people is a core characteristic and attribute. However, from an organization's perspective, there's a real return on investment to be had here too. Spurned by a conversation with Buddy Hobart who's our special guest on episode 35 and also a good friend. He got me thinking around how by improving the core capabilities and characteristics of our workforce, can we directly transfer that cost or investment to bottom-line outcomes? Well, let's just take two businesses of equal sizes, have an equal stature in a similar sector.  If one had a really deep pool of talent, a career path clearly mapped for those individuals to progress and grow as the organization grows in one organization while the other doesn't, which is going to have the deeper value when it comes to either selling or acquisition. And of course, the answer is the former because human capital should not just be considered as a cost on the balance sheet, but actually a real investment into the core infrastructure of the people within the organization. In doing so it can help us reframe how we need to think about our investment into learning and development and our leadership and coaching capabilities. And therefore, as leaders of this business, not only are you helping individuals improve, become more effective, more efficient and help them unlock their own personal goals, but you're directly transferring to the bottom-line value of an organization through investing in human capital. And thanks Buddy, because this conversation helped me reframe how I think about investing or spending anything relating to development. Sure, I get it. I understand the real value in that personal development, but now a second lens applies for me around I'm adding to the value of my business by supporting people and developing their talent. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any information, insights that you'd like our listeners to hear, please get in touch. Start of Podcast  Steve Rush: Dr. Rob McKenna is a guest on today's show. He's recognized among the top 30 most influential industrial and organizational psychologists. He's the founder and CEO of Wild Leaders Inc, and The Wild Foundation. And he's also the author of his latest book Composed: The Heart Of Leading Under Pressure. Rob, it's super to have you on the show.Rob Mckenna: Hey, Steve, it's such a pleasure to talk with you.Steve Rush: So, tell us a little bit about how you move through the world of IO psychology into leadership development. How did that come about?Rob Mckenna: Oh man, Steve. So, I think. It goes pretty far back. The son of parents who were in a university president role from the time I was very young, but my dad was a university president. And one of the things I think that affected me about that, and that was for most of my childhood was watching them lead in a pretty complex system. I always say, if you can lead at a university, you can lead almost anywhere. But watching them and being influenced by their challenges, especially of being leaders through the seventies and eighties, when they didn't have an incredible amount of support, my parents were wonderful leaders and have had a profound impact on me. But at the same time, I think it affected me because I used to sit around the dinner table as a child and my folks actually because there weren't a lot of places where leaders could share a lot of the challenges they were facing. I think our dinner table was more like an advisory board session sometimes because there wasn't a lot of space to share it. I had a leader actually just a few weeks ago, say, so Rob seems like you've spent most of your career trying to replicate that dinner table for other leaders, and I think there is some truth to that. I was also profoundly impacted by my brother who was a leader in the whole area of industrial-organizational psychology, he's 17 years older than I am.I had the privilege of being mentored by an older brother who had a pretty profound impact on the world of work in many ways. He was at Microsoft in the early days and doing leadership development there and introduced me to this whole field of industrial-organizational psychology.And it had a, just a deep impact on me realizing that it was one of the most. I always describe it as one of the most powerful guilds in the world. because many of us have never heard of because the people in this field are responsible for sort of the bread and butter of our field is selection and performance management. So, it's who gets in the door and then what gets rewarded once they're there and sort of the foundation. And so that had a, certainly a profound impact, but I think over my career, both a university professor, so I spent 25 years, Steve, I think, you know, this. As the as a university professor and as a business leader consultant. And so, I've had my feet in both you know, I'm sort of part-man scientist and part entrepreneur. And so, and it wasn't until just recently, actually right before this amazing crazy season we've been in now that I actually resigned from my role as a faculty member to go full-time. And I'm in this space where I'm just kind of experiencing the big exhale of only having one job after all these years of focusing my attention on Wild Leaders and away from that. So, it's been a, I think my whole career has been really direction around. All the research that I've done over the years with different corporate leaders and non-profit leaders in government and educational leaders. Has given me a pretty deep passion and conviction about what it means to develop whole leaders. So as a bit of a backstory, but it starts way back in the beginning.Steve Rush: Yeah, and I guess having the experience of both being a psychologist, as well as a leadership development consultant, you have the lens of this is how leadership has changed over the last 30, 40 years, because the conversations I suspect you have around the dinner table, listening to your folks talk is very different from the kinds of experiences that we'll be having today, but the psychology pretty much remains the same, right?Rob Mckenna: Yeah, yeah. I think it does. Some of the fundamentals don't change that much. I think what's also interesting is that some of the topics that become popular, you know, in a popular sort of books that come out and so on. Some based on really good psychology and good theory and research. And then others are something that just catches. And I think some of the fundamentals have stayed the same, but for me, one of the things that has not changed is the necessity for leaders to have a space, to have the more real conversations, if you will. I think there's a sense in which, you know, in our world today, for example, we're asking leaders to be increasingly vulnerable. And at the same time, I was thinking about vulnerability. The definition of vulnerability is the openness to being hurt. So, when we ask the leader to be more vulnerable and more transparent, they were actually asking them to open up the door to the possibility that someone will harm them with whatever they share. And so, I think that the more real conversation is how do you make decisions about how to be vulnerable? What humility looks like and the tensions that are there. But I think some of the fundamentals haven't changed that much, so, yeah,Steve Rush: That's interesting in itself almost because our brains defence mechanism is to keep us safe. In your experience as a psychologist Rob, do you find that it's less likely that we're going to be receptive to being hurt because of that kind of psychology neuroscience is playing out?Rob Mckenna: Oh, I think that is so interesting, especially today, because one of the things, when I talk about one of the things Steve, that shaped me from early on, is an emphasis on paradox. My dissertation, when I finished my PhD was around paradox. I've always been fascinated by these tensions that leaders face, as opposed to sort of more oversimplified kind of one-off solutions to their whole developmental journey and the experiences that they're having. There's a really important call for humble leaders right now in our world. But very little conversation also, and vulnerable leaders. Not as many conversations going around the tension that they actually experienced between humility and something, for example, like courage or conviction that we have to have leaders who both have a, you know, a willingness to humble themselves and a willingness to listen and a willingness to care, but at the same time, a willingness to step out and go first and some of the most difficult leadership spaces in our world. And that's where I find the challenge so interesting because you need leaders who have the fortitude to stand in the middle of the storm and to take all the hits, but at the same time have enough of that connective tissue developing so that they can stay in touch with others. And so, I find that very interesting and also kind of more to the real story of what leaders are facing. So that's why we've spent a lot of our time focusing on that.Steve Rush: And that’s the crux behind Wild Leaders, which stands for whole an intentional leader development. Right?Rob Mckenna: Yeah.Steve Rush: So how different of a focus is that if I'm a leader when I think of myself as whole and intentional?Rob Mckenna: Yeah, the way I think about this, Steve, and this is going to sound like, I don't mean to slam anyone else's work, but this is my larger statement around what whole is about. We want books and approaches that are really simple. You know what I mean? Where we desire that kind of give me my five steps to leadership.Steve Rush: Sure.Rob Mckenna: Or my, you know, my three steps to being an effective leader. And one of the challenges that we see, and this is pretty apparent when you look at the last four decades of leader development research, like how and where leaders develop and grow. I've said before that sort of a one-off pithy cliche kind of solution to leader development is the equivalent of teaching. I hope this makes sense for those of us who may not be gamers, but teaching a Navy Seal or a Special Ops person to play call of duty or some other kind of video game.Steve Rush: Right.Rob Mckenna: And then dropping them into a hotspot in the world with an Xbox and an Airsoft Gun.Steve Rush: It's like simulation.Rob Mckenna: Yes, and it's almost worse than simulation. It's the assumption that, for example, if I know what I'm good at, and that's enough for me to actually stand in the midst of the storm.Steve Rush: Yeah.Rob Mckenna: And so, a whole approach would mean to take that body of literature and to say, we know that every leader if we're really interested in what we often call deep-seated leader development. That every leader is experiencing a complex set of variables, where there's this interaction between things like my competence and also my blind spots and my past experiences and the experiences that are shaping me now and where I'm going and why. And even my intention and capacity to develop other leaders. That all of these variables are sort of in play in the mind of a leader. And that if we could create a way to scaffold that development in a way that actually was relevant in real-time to what a leader is experiencing, that we might, you know, do a better job, especially in the complex times of our world today.Steve Rush: What is it specifically that you're focusing on with your team at Wild at the moment in order to help leaders think differently and specifically around that kind of paradoxical view that you just talked about?Rob Mckenna: When I set out on this journey and established this organization, some of the systems and tools that we have. I personally, wasn't driven to just try to inspire people. As you know, I do a lot of speaking and writing, and that's a part of my whole cadence as a professional in his field. But what I really wanted to do was to build what we describe as a repeatable and scalable system for leader development. I should say a whole leader development system, so the intention is actually provide that and what it's been built on, this system, which is called the wild toolkit by the way, which is @wildtoolkit.com. The wild toolkit is, quite literally a system. So most people in organizations have a system for operations, or they have a system for human resources and they have a system for their accounting and finance, and they have a system for their marketing and their promotional strategies, but so many lack, an unintentional system for developing leader capacity.And so, what we built was a system that could repeat in scale. That could create a way for organizations to have a common language around what it means to develop leader capacity. And so, what it is, this is quite literally a set of 10 different tools that leaders use throughout their year to have more richer, developmental conversations that are happening alongside their business strategy. And that's been so powerful because one of the big messages behind the entire leader development research history has been, that leaders are developing on the job in what an old friend of mine named Bob Thomas describes as crucible experiences. So, to the extent that your organization is full of these high-pressure kinds of moments, then the leader laboratory is in place. And then all it takes is to put a system in place to walk alongside those leaders, as they're developing to start to multiply a leader capacity, so that's what we do. And our emphasis is on that system. Steve Rush: That sounds neat. And I think not many people will think of leadership development as a system. We often think of it as a by-product to other systems, but I concur that in itself is a system in its own right. So, you're wholeheartedly involved in Wild now, but in addition to that, you also have a Wild Foundation. Tell us a little bit about that?Rob Mckenna: Yeah, for the past several years. One of the things that has come up in our work with leaders across the world has been that there are so many leaders who need deep-seated leader preparation but may not have the resources to do that. I can't tell you the number of times that in our work, on the Wild Leader side of my life, where someone will approach me and say, hey, I have had someone say this just about a year ago, said I have a hundred Syrian refugee women in Jordan who need, what you do, would you go? And my immediate response is of course I would go. But the challenge has been just resourcing all these kinds of efforts. And for the past eight years, we've been working with a University in India. That's entire mission is to provide a higher education to, with Dalit and tribal populations. Are people who quite literally exist outside of the caste system. And so, I've been profoundly impacted by India in our time there. And I think over, over and over and over again, what has happened is these different kinds of organizations, for example, organizations fighting human trafficking. Another organization that we're partnered with that is actually about reforestation in the world, a huge issue. Have come to us and said, we have this group of leaders. And it's so interesting, Steve also, because these kinds of mission-based organizations that are on these just incredible missions in our world. The leaders will say that when they started off, they thought, let me take, for example, Clean Water. They thought it was about clean water, which it is at the end, but what they realized very quickly is that none of sustain without leader development, because it's the leaders, the people that have the fortitude to step out into those impossible, but so important situations that are so critical to any kind of a longer-lasting impact. And so, we set up the Wild Foundation as a way for people to raise funding and support, to provide the best whole leader training, we possibly could to all of those populations of people who just have been not denied that kind of access in the past. And so, we're excited about that as a way to serve in such important needs in the world.Steve Rush: That's amazing, and often Rob people forget that behind any great mission. Behind any great change experience in the world where people are trying to change cultures, thinking and behaviours. There's somebody who's going to be responsible from a leadership perspective, who may not have had access to broader, wider thinking. So, I think it's fantastic cause, and we'll make sure that we share some of that work in our show notes too. You've written a couple of books. The Wild Leader was the kind of one that kicked things off for you. But latterly you've written Composed and Composed is the heart of leading under pressure. And if ever there was a time to have a book leading under pressure, it's probably now. Tell us how the book came about?Rob Mckenna: So, I often say that I'm not that much about leadership, that my focus really is on leaders. That when I think about this whole area, I think about a person. And we started to over the years, I've been involved in several different longitudinal studies across different large corporations, and we studied non-profit leaders. We studied engineers transitioning to leadership, all different kinds of populations. And one of the factors, we started to study, was actually begun by some colleagues of ours, around how leaders learn on the job. And as I mentioned before, they learn in these kinds of crucible, really high-pressure kinds of moments. Where there's a 50/50 chance they may succeed or fail. Where everyone's going to watch when they do and where they're having to do things and draw on other people like they've never imagined before.And as we got into that research and we started to talk with leaders to quantify their experience and qualify their experience, what we found was that there was a common factor emerging. That was simple and didn't matter whether we were talking to an executive with a multi-billion-dollar budget or a parent, a person who's parenting their children. And the fundamental issue was this challenge of pressure and what it means to compose themselves and what was happening inside those high-pressure moments. Cause I describe pressure as this invisible force that tells us that something is changing. And so, I got really interested on what it is that people were experiencing in those high-pressure moments in those leadership kinds of roles. And so, what was coming out was that there was a fundamental tension between their capacity to stay true to themselves and to stay clear and convicted, and at the same time, staying connected to those same things in others.So, what we found is that when people transition to the role of leader, where they are now responsible for others, and they're going first, that was the tension that came up, because now it's not just about my truth. It's about what I think is important for us. And people want that from me, but at the same time, listening to multiple other stakeholders, all of whom may want something different. And so, this book got me deep into the literature on what it means to stand well in the midst of the storm, and hence the title Compose: The Heart And Science Of Leading Under Pressure. So, the book is really the result of so much of the work I've done over the years on leading under pressure and how people show up in those moments. And that fundamental tension is where it starts.Steve Rush: And that whole paradox of tension is kind of a core theme throughout the book. Isn't it? So, you have a bit in there around you call it the fundamental tension, which you call this chapter, you and me, how does that work?Rob Mckenna: Yes, so it is so interesting when people. And you can, you know, as a father yourself, you know, whether you're a parent or a president, as I say. That this challenge of staying true to ourselves and staying connected to others is always there. If we have any awareness whatsoever, that there is and other, then that tension is there. And what I've seen over the years and break down in the book is that most of us have what I would describe as a habitual reaction under pressure, a way of responding. And that for some of us, that habit is, or what I described as the default, is towards self. So, for some of us, what we see under pressures, we see a lot of us. A lot of what matters to me, and you have a much more, I mean, what people see is a more autocratic kind of leader under pressure, but really what it is, is a leader kind of doing what it is that has worked well in the past, or well enough. And so that's one possible way that people go emotionally. But the other possibility is toward a heavier emphasis on others. In the book, I described these as true speakers and peacekeepers. So, the other thing is that you have leaders, what pressure does to them is that it actually impacts their ability to stay true to themselves, it diminishes, and you see an increased focus on what everyone else thinks is important. And these aren't bad leaders either because they just tend to have this habit more of making sure everyone else is okay, but we sort of lose track of who they are. And so, I worked with leaders over the years, trying to help them, not to, I wouldn't say, maintain a balance, but to maintain a capacity to live in the tension between those two things and to avoid the default, that is kind of their way, that is by the way impacted by the system of people around them. So that's why I think any concept that is oversimplified into sort of treating a leader as if they live in a vacuum, misses the reality that every leader is living with an assistant with people who will push them in certain kinds of ways as well. So that's what that tension is about.Steve Rush: Sure, and of course every individual brings their own worldview that will shape their own behaviours as well. So, you have then in the book, a chapter about victim or volition and how we can perceive control. Now, control is really important to have in our world for us to be effective, but actually giving control away is equally as powerful as a leader. Tell us a little bit about what you were trying to achieve in this chapter?Rob Mckenna: So, the second half of the book, Steve. The first path have to sets up that whole, like what is pressure? And this fundamental tension that I described. I love conversations that make your head hurt a little bit at the same time, I'm a person who kind of needs to know. So, what do you do about it? And so, what we studied was. What were the strategies that allowed leaders to effectively live within that tension between self and other? And so, what the last part of the book is about is these 11 strategies that emerged. And so, what you're highlighting is, one of those strategies is focusing on what you can control and what has been so interesting is that it doesn't matter the scope and the scale of power or authority or accountability that a leader has.I have seen leaders with more budget authority than I could possibly imagine, like billions of dollars, all in one room, people who could quite literally change the axis of the earth with the push of the cash register, it feels like that. I've seen those kinds of leaders spend three or four hours talking about human resources systems that they have no control over.Steve Rush: Exactly right.Rob Mckenna: I remember thinking this is when I was a much younger man. I was sitting in a room one time thinking these people could change the world. If they began to think about things within their influence and control, as opposed to complaining about things, they have no control over. That's one of the places that starts. We had these, as I said, these 11 strategies, which were emerged as important. So, what we have leaders do is we have an assessment within the wild toolkit called the leading under pressure inventory. So, a lot of the book is based on that particular portion of the whole leader development toolkit. But what we have leaders do is identify what are the strategies that you're using well, and what are the ones that would help you move forward, if you were to increase your capacity in this one area and control is one of them.Steve Rush: And I love that. I have a mantra myself. Which is, only control, only what you can control.Rob Mckenna: Yeah.Steve Rush: If it's not within your gift, give it away. Can you delegate it? Can you give somebody else the capacity to think of it differently? And therefore, just only control, only what you can. And then as part of your, that play out, you've got another part of the book, which I found really quite intriguing, which is chaos and calm, which I think most leaders will recognize a typical day/week. That could be both of those dichotomies playing out, right?Rob Mckenna: That particular strategy is sort of the meta-strategy in the book and its around self-regulation. And the way I define that is maintaining your ability or capacity to make a choice. And it's one of the meta strategies, and I think one of those things I share sometimes Steve, is what we call the secret sauce. So, while all 11 strategies were important, we also wanted to know, if someone didn't have a chance to use leading under pressure inventory to read the whole book, what would be the strategies that were most critical in helping a leader self-regulate and compose themselves under pressure? Does that make sense? So, we wanted to know. If we had to pick one, what would they be? And it was very interesting, and this is emerged through a couple of decades, and I'm old enough now that I can say that.Steve Rush: Right.Rob Mckenna: The number one strategy. Increasing a leader's capacity to self-regulate to compose themselves into stand in the tension was sense of purpose. It was the extent to which a leader knew, had almost taken account of or audited. Like, what is the reason I'm in this situation, in the first place? And it wasn't something that was popularized in a Ted talk or somewhere else, although it's certainly critical. We found over and over again for the last couple of decades that this sense of purpose was emerging as something that was not even, it's more than like a psychological speak. It was a strategic thing, and so it's one of the reasons that even as our wild team goes into any high-pressure moment together with groups of leaders. We ask ourselves as a team together, why are we here?And it's an example. Steve, I told you I have a 19-year-old son, and this is sort of in my own family system is if I know why I'm his dad in a given season, it will serve as a keel in the midst of the storm when a high-pressure moment comes up between us and it's whether it's that, or in my role as CEO, it's been critical. The second one I'll mention very quickly, the second, the one that's soaked up a lot of the variants as well in that whole idea of composure was focusing on potential.Steve Rush: Yeah.Rob Mckenna: And it was the extent to which, and this was over and above sense of purpose. So it was, if I could maintain my capacity to see positive potential outcomes, when everyone else may only see barriers, it was critical. And it wasn't optimism, because optimism is that I have a half, you know, my glass is half full. Pessimists, it's half empty, that the focus on potential was a leader who says, I have a half-full glass of water. What are the multiple things I could do with that? Those were the two that stood out the most in our research, those 11 strategies. All of them were important, but if we had to pick, those would be the ones.Steve Rush: And I reckon many people will get optimism and potential mixed up. What's your experience?Rob Mckenna: Yeah, one of the issues is. People want it oversimplified and focusing on potential actually is a strategic working sort of strategy. In other words, we have people sit down and actually identify what are the great things that could emerge or the positive potential that could emerge in the midst of the season. Even in the midst of the season, people are experiencing. Now we're doing this often right now. So that's one of the different, the other ones Steve is so interesting is two of the strategies. One is empathy, and one is what's called taking the perspective of others, which is behaviourally listening. What we found that was so fascinating is that empathy and listening are they're highly correlated, but they're not the same thing. So, in other words, here's what we saw. In some cases, a leader who actually had very strong emotional connections to the experience of others. Actually, had a reduced capacity to listen. That connection was almost overwhelming. And we also had leaders who have this tremendous capacity to listen, who don't feel it. I think to your question is, sometimes we want to oversimplify something for the sake of simplicity, you know, and just to bring parsimony to something complex. But the reality is these things are a little bit more complex. So that's what I was trying in the book to do to break that down in a way that was consumable.Steve Rush: Really neat and we'll make sure that we let folks know how they can get hold of a copy of Composed: The Heart And Science Of Leading Under Pressure soon. But before we do that, this is where we get to turn the leadership lens on you as CEO and leader for many years, it's keen to get an understanding of your kind of top tips. If you could distil your many years of leading others and leading teams and businesses, what would be your top three leadership hacks?Rob Mckenna: Oh, top three. Steve, that's tough. I know, but number one would be, a bit redundant, but if any people walked away with one thing and I think this is something I remind myself of, is that. What I said before? Is that understanding why you are here? That sense of purpose. Is not touchy-feely, that's not the soft side of science. That it actually is a strategic move. And we're spending so much time in this season with leaders who, what has happened in 2020 for so many leaders is a sense of sort of an uprootedness. In other words, it has exposed whether or not they knew why they were here in the first place. And so, sense of purpose is a huge one that I've already mentioned. The second thing is, I hope this is a very, very practical approach.My brother taught me something that has been so critical for me over the years, but I think it's related to purpose. Is he said, cause my brother used to work with all the senior leaders at Microsoft back in the early days and through the middays, and he gave me this tip and he said, anytime you go into a meeting, no matter what it is, think about the three things that, you know, deep within your gut about that meeting. And he said, let all of the rest of it go. I can step in anywhere now. If I know those three things, I can let everything else go and focus there.Steve Rush: And that helps with control as well.Rob Mckenna: Yeah, it's related to that, right. That we talked about before. I think that's certainly there. The last thing was, this one is not quite so practical, but leaders who are experiencing, right now in our world, and it does break my heart. Is that we are seeing leaders in real-time leave their roles because they can't stand in the midst of the storm and it's happening repeatedly in the United States right now with the incredible fortitude it is taking to stand well when social media and everything is making your perceived successes and failures public immediately. This is my word to those leaders is first of all, we say this on every, every time we're with leaders who surround us is that you are not alone. The tensions you feel between something like resourcing and humility.Right now, I'm so struck by this because in the midst of this moment where we're trying to be aware and sensitive to things like inclusion and justice. Just absolutely, so in critical things, important things that are happening in our world. At the same time, these leaders that we have in place, or will put in place will be responsible for budgets and operations and making sure that we can actually pay people. And I think the leaders who are listening, who are saying like, yes, that's my world is, I just want you to know you're not alone. That's from my heart, and that there are people out there who are paying attention to your whole story. That includes some things you may share and some things that are more challenging.Steve Rush: Great advice, thank you for that Rob. The next bit of the show is, we call it Hack to Attack, and this is where something hasn't gone as planned. You know, this is about that fortitude you were talking around where something's screwed up and we've learned from it, but we now use it as a positive in our life. What would be your hack to attack?Rob Mckenna: Talk about vulnerability, Steve, you know. When I hear this question, I think of things that have not necessarily gone well. One of the first things that come to mind is a few years ago, I don't know if this is a, it is something I was trying to learn from. I choose a developmental theme. By the way, with anything that I have said, I don't claim to be an expert. I can't claim to be someone who studies this, who's also experiencing it.Steve Rush: Right.Rob Mckenna: A few years ago, I picked a developmental theme for my year and I picked the word conviction, which any emerging leaders who have been around me might know that that's kind of a keyword for me is helping them develop a sense of themselves and to put themselves out there. And I actually wrote this down. I had a whole, you know, theme that I'd written down for my year. And then I got feedback midway through the year from some other leaders around me that I was intimidating. And Steve, if you know me, you know, I just would never hope to, or perceive myself as someone who was unapproachable.Steve Rush: Of course.Rob Mckenna: And you've even known me long enough to know that I have a lot of conviction, but I almost all blindsided. I thought me unapproachable, you know, it just never occurred to me. So, it was an important moment to understand even the context within which my conviction is helpful in contexts that are a little bit overwhelming for people. So, here's what I did the next year. I chose the developmental theme of convicted care to make sure that when I'm just speaking about something that is so deep, you know, so important to me. That I would always be, it would be coming from a place of deep care and that I would try to communicate that as well. And it helped, so that was the first thing that came to mind.Steve Rush: The fact that you've taken the opportunity to reflect, and it now forms future thinking is what kind of, that whole learning experience and the fortitude you just described as. The very last thing that we get to talk about today, Rob is a bit of time travel. So, I'm going to ask you to bump into Rob at 21, and you don't get the chance to give him some advice. What’s its going to be.Rob Mckenna: Steve, this one is relevant, and I think fairly easy because my 19-year-old son just started University and he's a freshman in college. And so, I think about him immediately. And I think about some of the things I wish I had been told. And I would say number one that came to mind was that not all voices are right. I had people early in my career who said things to me that now I know were more about bad role modelling than good role modelling. But when I was young, I didn't know that. And so, I think of being aware that there are very smart people around us, and then there's something to learn from the good and the bad role models or from people who may not quite get us. But I wish someone had told me that early on.The second thing was that came to mind was to be patient. So much in our world said, you're not doing it right, unless you're going fast. And I would say that at 52, I feel like I have spent my career being prepared for this moment.Steve Rush: Sure.Rob Mckenna: And if someone, maybe, I don't know if it would have helped or not, but if someone would have said, Rob you're in this for the long haul and that some of the things you're doing may not even be about you, but maybe about a generation of people who will come after you. I think I had some of that modelled, but I would have loved to have heard that. The third thing was this, and I told my son this to not make it all about you, but to think intentionally about how to improve the experience for others and even make that sacrifice, you know, many of our, University classrooms are going to now be, they're going to be Zoom calls or they're going to be on some sort of virtual platform. And I think it's very interesting to imagine for even a student, you think of myself at 21 as you asked. What would it have meant if someone had said to me, what if you thought about instead of how nervous you are in class or how you feel under-qualified to be there? What if you had thought about how do I make this learning experience better for other students? I just wish I had maybe begun to think about that earlier. And it probably would've calmed me because back to what we said before, it probably would have given me a sense of purpose.Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely so.Rob Mckenna: But I think realizing that it's not all about you, what's important to you is critical, but let's start practising what it means to actively pay attention to what other people are experiencing in real-time. So those would be the three things that I would love to go back and talk with old Rob about back then.Steve Rush: Very wise words, Rob, very wise words. Now, for folks listening in, they'll probably want to think. How do I get hold of some information about what Rob is doing with Wild Leaders and the wild foundation and get a copy of the book? Where would you like us to send our listeners?Rob Mckenna: Yeah, for the book. The book is Composed: The Heart And Science Of Leading Under Pressure, and it's on Amazon. It's also, on audible. A lot of people are listening today, I always recommend people listen to me at two times speed. Cause I talk a little slow, when reading. But any information on Wild Leaders or the wild toolkit go to wildleaders.org, and there are all kinds of things. We have a Friday conversation, we invite leaders from around the world into, that's been an amazing way to serve in this season, especially, and that's just a, no-cost jump in there with some amazing leaders. Every Friday at 10:00 AM Pacific time. And then for any information on The Wild Foundation, it is quite literally thewildfoundation.org, as I was mentioning people that would want to help resource those kinds of leaders. We'd love to hear from them, would be great. But they can also send a note to contact@wildleaders.org for any questions that anyone might have.Steve Rush: Great, and we'll make sure all of those links are in our show notes as well, Rob. So, I just wanted to say, I'm super grateful Rob, you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you're a busy Chap and I am super grateful. You've shared some of your wisdom, you’re learning some of your experiences and on behalf of all our listeners. Thanks for being on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Rob Mckenna: Thanks Steve. So great to be here.Steve Rush: Thanks Rob. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.   

Amber Hurdle is the CEO of Amber Hurdle Consulting, a multi-award-winning talent optimization firm; she’s a speaker, author and podcast host of The Bombshell Business Podcast. In this episode, learn from amber About: How self-awareness can kick start your Brand refreshThe “data’ parallels of global brands vs. personal and company brandsHow to sharpen your brand with the “Velvet Machete”Why self-assessment and continuous learning makes you greaterFollow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Amber below:Amber Hurdle Website: https://amberhurdle.comTwitter: http://twitter.com/amberhurdleInstagram: http://instagram.com/thevelvetmacheteLinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/amberhurdle Full transcript below Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you.Amber Hurdle is the special guest on today's show. She's the CEO of Amber Hurdle Consulting, a multi award winning brand ambassador and talent optimizer. She's also the host of The Bombshell Business Podcast and author of The Bombshell Business Woman. But before we get a chance to meet with Amber, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: In the news today, we explore the upsurge of the use of digital technology and whether it's transferred power to the people. Sally Helgeson, who was cited by Forbes as the world's premier expert on female leadership, discusses how homeworking facilitated by digital technology has reversed the balance of power from capital to people. In 1993, Peter Drucker published Post-Capitalist Society. It has extraordinary lessons for leaders today, as we seek to emerge from the confusion, the pain and disruption of our pandemic 2020 society. Drucker was referring to the fact that capitalism became the primary means of production to the scale and complexity, requiring significant capital investment. Capital had by far the greatest valley in the chain of production. So, it grew to become quite expensive while the cost of people and labour became relatively cheap. As a result, the primary means of production, which of course was industrial machinery had to be centralized in factories and later in offices, via computers and tech, which meant that most people could no longer work from home. These two factors combined gave power in those who either provided a capital for enterprise or investment, or indeed hired to exercise it, that is senior management, but Drucker foresaw that the economist of the digital technology would reverse this basic logic. The digital tools that made such a transformative impact over the last 20 years are vastly more dependent on human knowledge and creativity than on raw materials and heavy machinery. As Drucker said, those tools began to reverse the balance of power between people and capital. And since people began to own the primary means of production, which of course is our brains and our thinking. That's what distinguishes the knowledge economy. And it's the reason why a new idea can make a hundred years of what was seen to be thoughtful, intensive capital development, almost obsolete overnight. And it's the reason why we now view leadership as something that should be distributed through organizations, rather than let the sole top of those leading the organizations.This year, it's taken on a fresh perspective as individuals around the world had to spend months working from home and organizations have had to adapt really quickly to this new reality. And it's fortunate that technology has reached a point where it allows us to do this, and we can now see that the trend in working from home or working at home is already well underway. So, what will it mean going forward for the primary means of production? It will be engaged within people's homes, places of where once we used to be housed prior to the industrial revolution. In short, Post-Capitalist Society that Drucker foretold almost 30 years ago is now suddenly and with force upon us, it's consequences will reshape our organizations, our lives and for the next century, and as leaders now more than ever, we need to be thoughtful and help our teams reframe that perspective and consider what their mindset is for the future.We may need to consider our homes as now our place of work. Stereotypes that we may have had such as stay at home moms or stay at home dads become obsolete and many more biases and assumptions could present themselves. But our job as leaders is to listen for those assumptions to challenge and to test them and to recognize that no longer capital will drive the future, but it's our people themselves. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any interesting stories or news that you'd like to share, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Amber Hurdle is our special guest on today's show. She's a multi award-winning consultant and business partner, a brand expert and author of The Bombshell Business Woman. Amber, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Amber Hurdle: I am so grateful to be here, thank you.Steve Rush: You have a really interesting backstory from team mom to CEO. How did it all start for you?Amber Hurdle: On the struggle bus? So just kind of going way back to the teen mom days, that seems so long ago, there was a big why, and that was giving my daughter every opportunity in the world that a child not born to a teen mom would have. And that is a commitment that I made in the hospital, indignant. That was mission critical, and with that, even though I stumbled and made a lot of terrible, awful, horrible, decisions, I did find a way to continuously fail forward in the interest of pursuing that big why. So, through that process, I had to learn at the time I had no idea what this current buzz term was, but I had to learn how to develop my personal brand so that I could position myself to get better shifts at work, to get a job I might not be fully qualified for to be able to attract the right people and opportunities to me so that I could raise this child who was brilliant and deserved better than what I brought her into this world into.So as that continuously enabled me to move forward with success, I began to do various things to help support that, that in turn became things that I would help team members with or employees with or colleagues, or eventually when I went back to college, because I figured out there's this word for this thing that I do and it's called public relations. And then I discovered the world of internal relations. And so, I started using the same principles and the confidence that came with it because I knew that it worked because I've used it on me and everyone else. And now I'm dealing with senior leaders in my career and I'm helping shape their personal brands, like an internal publicist of sorts and increasing their influence. And it's just gone from there, I've worked with celebrities, I've worked with, I mean, you name it, I've done it. And I'm 41 years old and abundantly blessed that I get to be the wounded healer that I get to be someone who can pursue her purpose through her vocation.Steve Rush: That's awesome Amber. And I guess part of that failing forward that you talked about ,was also maybe being brand aware at certain parts of your life. So, you could pivot your career accordingly. Would that be kind of fair?Amber Hurdle: Oh, absolutely. You know, I was sitting at lunch with a childhood friend, someone who I've been friends with since high school. This was a few years back, and he was looking at maybe shifting his career a little bit. And he said, Amber, you're just the Madonna of professional life. You're constantly evolving and reinventing yourself. And I looked at him somewhat confused because I didn't perceive it that way. And I said, help me understand that. Can you say that a different way? And he talked about the different pieces of my career and I just looked at him and I said, that is all me wrapping everything that I do into communication and engagement. That's the vehicle, that's what I do. I'm able to communicate. I can teach other people how to communicate. I know how to engage. I can teach other people how to engage.And throughout my career, whether I was a celebrity event planner, whether I was an internal you know, employee relations person, whether I was doing PR work or whatever, fundraising and Scc College, it was all about communication and engagement. So it is that, you have to really clearly understand what your gifting is. You have to understand what uniquely makes you, you. And so, anybody can do communication and engagement, right. I can define and position, my value by saying, I can do that and that I can do that because I was forced to learn the hard way through my teen mother experience.Steve Rush: Right, yeah. It's huge lessons that you probably experienced much earlier in your life than most folk would've done. Right?Amber Hurdle: Absolutely. I was chatting with a friend last night who is just so advanced. I mean, I just asked him like, why are you so smart? How did you get so smart? Cause you didn't go to college or in your neck of the woods, you didn't go to university. But he just has this wealth of business knowledge. And he said, you know what, Amber, you became an adult way early. You're a decade ahead of your peer group. I started my first business when I was 17 and its those same principles. It's just that dumb youth of learning the hard way and actually having enough energy may be to recover from the ridiculous mistakes that you make. But because we made them so young, it catapulted us forward into having a deeper wisdom around whether that's life or business or, you know, anything like that.Steve Rush: And academia of course, is not a prerequisite for entrepreneurialism. In fact, most entrepreneurs, I know actually have less of an academic background than the former.Amber Hurdle: Yeah, because we never stop learning. We don't go to school and then say, okay, I've learned everything I need to learn. I wrote everything I had to write. I've read everything I need to read and I'm sick of it, so the end. Again, and I have to credit my friend for kind of bringing that up last night. Good timing for this interview. When you're an entrepreneur. I mean, I just think about this year alone, everything that I've had to go back and say, okay, now I need to learn how to do this. I need a refresher on that. I haven't really learned this in probably about four years. So, what's changed? I need to learn that. So, I've taken four different courses. I'm constantly watching YouTube. We have to do that to respond to the ever-changing business environment that we're in. And when you think of learning or of my personal education or my personal intelligence being attached to formal education, you really missing out.Steve Rush: Yup, get it. A hundred per cent subscribe to that whole principle of continuous learning and evolution is just what makes you greater. So, in your consulting world now, you've managed to unite branding and science together to really help amplify that human capital when it comes to brands. Tell us a little bit about how you've done that?Amber Hurdle: So, branding background, PR of course. The way that big businesses approach branding their marketing is how I approach that with individuals in terms of personal brands, as well as employee bases in terms of employer brands. And so, my velvet machete brand strategy believes that if you have strong leaders with strong personal brands, they can then lead strong employer brands where people feel really excited about coming to work. They understand where their gifts and their talents and their experience fit into the big picture. And when you have happy employees delivering at that peak level, then you have a strong business brand because your customers are satisfied. Things are getting done the way they're supposed to be done. You don't have as many errors or, you know, whatever that looks like you, you know that you have a strong business brand cause it's from the inside out. So, with that in mind, let's think about like Nike, Nike does millions of dollars’ worth of market research before they do any type of marketing campaign. And so, what they have to do is figure out from data, whether that is cookies on their website, tracking, you know, where are you clicking? How long do you stay on a page? Whether that is through loyalty programs, it could be focus groups, whatever. They have to have data. They're going to take that data to understand the big picture what's going on inside of their brand, how they can most efficiently and effectively market. And they'd start to develop ideal customer profiles so that they can speak into the emotions of their customers and potential customers. Now, why don't we do that internally?Steve Rush: Right.Amber Hurdle: We need to do the same thing. We need to canvas our entire team. We need to understand who's working for us. We need to understand what does that landscape look like so that we can speak to them emotionally about their contributions, about why they are with our organization and why we all share the same philosophies and values and that sort of thing. That is the bedrock of our culture. And then as we hire just like Nike creates ideal customer profiles and their messaging, their brand doesn't change. Their "Just Do It". Their brand doesn't change at all, but their messaging changes. If they are targeting an elite athlete who might need some performance gear versus a soccer mom, who's just going to wear her athletes aware at target, very different people, very different messaging, same brand. So, if you look at that from the perspective of your employer brand, you have the same brand. You are who you are, these are your values, you know? And so, you need to create ideal employee profiles for each position that you are hiring.Steve Rush: It's almost the same process that Nike is deploying isn't? But just internally, with an internal lens.Amber Hurdle: It is, and it's so funny when I get invited into a company. I was recognized and I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm just saying, it's not novel. But I was recognized by global gurus as one of the top 30 brand professionals thought leaders for 2020, because my perception of branding is different from the inside out. And I'm just like, to me, this is so obvious. If you have the data and you know where the holes are in your team and you know, behaviourally what type of person you need in that role and, you know, personality-wise, then you can start using data to help you make informed decisions, just like Nike uses data to make informed decisions. Now you can market, now you can recruit, now you can retain and keep everybody happy, just like we do with our customers. I don't see the reach in that, but apparently, it's a new thing to talk about.Steve Rush: It's an awareness thing, I think.Amber Hurdle: Yeah.Steve Rush: What you're describing is just that internal lens shift. Now the five-step process that you've developed with your velvet machete, and by the way, I just love the visual metaphor. Velvet machete, I think it's brilliant because I'm a visual kind of guy anyway, so I can almost see this really soft little machete coming down to me, but I know that it's going to take me through proper rigorous five-step process. Let's get into that and talk about how that can maybe help some of our listeners think about their own brand awareness. So, what are the five steps?Amber Hurdle: Let's just start first with the concept development machete. So, the machete cuts to the chase. It is a direct way of communicating and influencing, but the velvet wraps the message in a way that's appealing to your unique audience. So just like Nike has different messaging. So does the velvet machete process. So, we need to keep that in mind, as you move through these five steps. Now, first and foremost, you have to become self-aware. So, as you're building your personal brand, which is step number one, you have to be able to confidently define and position your value. You have to know what you bring to the table. And I've got of course, tons of exercises that get you to that point. But only when you understand yourself, can you start to move through the rest of these processes. So, step number two is then building supportive environments, creating systems and structures that uniquely support your efforts.So, if I know I am excellent at whatever, I need to create environments around me, whether that's people environments, or how my workflow is set up, it could be spiritual or physical or mental environments that I need to put in place to fortify those things that are great about me. Now, a lot of people like to talk about strengths and weaknesses. I can't stand to do that. I'm not a weak person. I'm also not amazing at advanced math. And so, I'm not going to say, well, that's a weakness. It's just not helpful. Me doing advanced math is not helpful to my mission.So, with that in mind, I just bubble wrap that just like fine China. Beautiful, precious, expensive, valuable, fine China. It's not weak. It just is fragile. And so, we bubble wrap it to ship it across the country. So, whatever is fragile in your toolbox of resources, we need to bubble wrap that. So, for me, I have a CPA, I have a bookkeeper and I have someone who handles payroll. Okay? So, they teach me, but that's my bubble wrap. And you can do that in all areas of your life. But here's the beauty. When you are very confident in who you are and what you bring to the table, and then you create all of these environments to really strengthen, being able to do that. And then instead of being like, oh, I wish I was more, blah, blah, blah. You just bubble wrap that stuff. Now, now you're really moving forward with confidence. And my velvet machete leadership Academy is all about becoming a competent, compassionate leader, having that velvet machete balance. Once you have that in place and you are strong, your foundation is strong only then can you move on to mastering your communication. Because now we're including other people. So, if you're not solid is really difficult to begin to interact with others. So, you have to be able to speak with authority while listening with intent to drive results. So, I know who I am. I know what I bring to the table. Now I'm listening to you with intent. I'm being able to communicate like Nike in different ways for different audiences, with that velvet machete style that I have. And once I can master that communication, and I understand how to have a two-way conversation with my various key stakeholders, then I can move on to step four and truly mastermind engagement. And that's when I use my self-awareness, my ability to understand what type of environments I need, my ability to communicate. And once I see and harvest the greatness in others, I can rally their support. And that's where people get hung up. That is the billion-dollar problem. And I'll tell you, I was with a client a handful of weeks ago, and she is a dynamo. I mean, she's just amazing and has all kinds of experience and is pretty senior in her role. And she was stuck because she'd been working for months on something, but she could not get the buy-in of somebody that would move it forward, which would save the company a billion dollars.Steve Rush: Wow.Amber Hurdle: I'm not joking, billion with B. And so, we worked through how she could frame that in order to get that buy-in, to move it to the next phase of approval. She killed it. She not only got in that next phase, but she got the next phase and everything came to fruition. They're following her plan. They're going to now move forward, trying to save the company a billion dollars. She could not have done that without self-awareness, without the environments that she needed to support her, without understanding her communication style and how she needed to communicate to this initial key stakeholder plus the next round. And if she was unable to rally support from this person, that company would not have her extreme intention, her gifts, and the gifts of her team to save them a billion dollars with a B. So, once you've done these four things, now you can build influence. Now you can guide and focus people and processes towards success because now this person has everything that she needs. And so, everyone knows the goal and she can just rally that support. And then build on that, moving everyone together towards saving that billion dollars. This process is not like, oh, these are soft skills. And everybody needs to, you know, we need to increase our emotional intelligence. Blah-Blah-Blah fluffy, fluffy unicorns.Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly.Amber Hurdle: We're saving a billion dollars here people, this is important.Steve Rush: The one thing that I observe when I also coach execs is that this persona, if you like of soft skills presents itself quite a bit. And I always have the conversation that says there's nothing soft about having great communication skills, being able to engage and influence people. That's real hard skills. What about some of the baggage that comes with the language that we internalize with ourselves?Amber Hurdle: That is why I call it a relevant machete. I mean, that doesn't sound very soft. The velvet does, but that's my way of bringing awareness to. This isn't child's play, we're not on the strengths couch right now. This is an internal fuzziness. Now, anybody who works with me understands that I have no differentiation between professional and personal. We do not compartmentalize our lives. We are a whole person, and all of that is going on all at the same time. And especially if your career is a manifestation of your purpose, then now we're really coagulated. It's all put in a blender together. And so, yes, when we're talking about our environments and when we're talking about our personal brand, we might have to go into some deeply personal places, but at the end of the day, if you do the work, and that's what I tell my clients all the time, you have to do the work. If you're willing to do the work, then you're empowered into that competent, compassionate leader. That leader who can influence because people see your authenticity and they are inspired by your ability to show them how their contributions fit into the bigger picture.Steve Rush: I love that five steps, by the way. I think it's a really neat way of just thinking about the process you need to go through. And like you say, this is not soft. This is proper work, isn't it?Amber Hurdle: It is, and I appreciate that feedback. Thank you. Steve Rush: So, you've also turned to writing and you've authored the book, The Bombshell Business Woman. Tell us a little bit about what the inspiration was for the book?Amber Hurdle: Sure. So, when I left corporate and I began working with organizations through consulting and training and speaking, I had several female friends, acquaintances who came to me and said, wow, Amber, you know, you really have branded and marketed yourself well. I'm really struggling with that in my business. And so, I find myself kind of having like a part-time job of helping friends to position themselves. And of course, my whole career is PR, marketing and that sort of thing in various forms. And I've owned other businesses where I've done this successfully. So being the type of person who likes to pay things forward, I did, but then it got overwhelming. And so, I thought, you know what, I'm just going to have a one-day bootcamp. And I'm going to invite some of my smartest friends who are former executives who are now independent and we're just going to hash it out.So, I did that and it was wildly successful. So, I thought, well, Hmm, interesting. We probably should do this again, but really dig in a little bit more. And so, I did, I had an offering of a weekly bombshell business bootcamp, and I took them through the different phases that I eventually put into the book. And I had people from five different county in middle Tennessee attend very faithfully and it was beautiful to see what they did in their businesses and how they collaborated with each other and how the whole strengthened the individual businesses. And so, at that point I was like, Hmm, I'm onto something here. So, I would love to write a book, but I'm still not super clear. I know what five-county worth of, you know, again, we're back to data, right? So, I understand this subsection, but I live in the South and there's just limitations to that.So, I launched the podcast and develop the most beautiful relationship with my listeners. That was possible, they were so open with me. They would send me messages all of the time, they sent mail to my office, told me I listened to this episode. This is how I applied it. This is what changed in my business. I mean, it was like a market researcher dream. For me, it's about, can I serve you? And is this working for you? But the reality is this is data. And now I can use it to inform my decision making. So, with that really intimate understanding of The Bombshell Business Woman, I was able to write this book. Because I wanted any woman with $15 dollars to be able to self-educate. So, we're back to that, right? And I wrote it very much in a conversational style. The first four chapters were more about my personal life so that they can understand, like, if Amber could do it, I can do it.I have no more excuses. Cause looking at Amber went through and then it's very tactical after that. And I did that with intention, not because I was trying to give away the form and people were like, oh, you could've made a course about that. I'm like that wasn't the intention of this book. The intention of this book was to give any woman with $15 dollars in her pocket and exact guide to get her business to where it needs to go. And so, the reward in that was people writing in saying, I'm on page, whatever, I'm in total tears. It's as if you wrote this book just to me and I wouldn't have been able to do that. Had I not had that relationship with my listeners where I knew where their pain was, where I knew, where they were stuck in their frustration. And in the end, I had a beautiful message from someone on Instagram. And she had a dream of selling her struggling yoga practice. And she wanted to open up a yoga retreat, Bali or some beautiful location. And she was really in trouble with her business. She wrote to me and said she started listening to my podcast. She listened to every episode twice. She read my book; she downloaded the workbook. She did everything that I told her to do. And not only did she get her business to a healthy place, she sold it for an absurd amount of money. And she sent me a picture of her yoga retreat in Bali or wherever it is and invited me to follow her social media accounts, to see it grow and flourish.Steve Rush: How awesome is that!Amber Hurdle: And again, you are too. We're in unique situations where we can't really describe the successes of our clients because it is so confidential. And so, I'm describing the success so that any listener who thinks I don't have anything to say or who would listen to me, or I'm not educated enough, I'm not experienced enough. My encouragement to you is that, you know more than somebody else out there and that somebody is looking for somebody to lead them through difficulty or to get them to a next level. And so, if you put it out there, people will find you. Your tribe will find you, if you are truly authentically you and you don't hold back, people will find you and you will help other people get incredible results.Steve Rush: That's so true, isn't it? So true. And also, the whole philosophy of technology plays a big part in the book as well. There was one particular chapter in the book that really tickled me and it was a teaching Wilma Flintstone in the Jane Jetson world.Amber Hurdle: Yes, [Laughing].Steve Rush: Just tell us a little bit about that?Amber Hurdle: The target audience for this particular book. And I'll just give you the avatar or the ideal customer profile of The Bombshell Business Woman. She's 42 years old, she has two kids. One is almost graduated. The other one's in junior high. He plays soccer. She's involved in everything. And, you know, she's chamber of commerce, volunteers, good wife, great daughter, all that kind of stuff. And yet all she can see, even though everyone else sees her as a total rock star is what she's not doing right. And one of the things that she laments over is that she's just not good with technology. She doesn't get the Twitter. The website blows her mind. Anything that would help streamline her business is frustrating. And so, what I loved, especially in that initial cohort of the bombshell business bootcamp that we did live over several weeks was I was able to show them how easy peasy things could be. And once they realized that it wasn't overwhelming, they were able to implement it in their business. Thank God. Cause now in COVID, everybody's using technology and virtual everything.Steve Rush: Right.Amber Hurdle: So, they had a little leg up there and it just took away that fear. And so, so much of what we don't accomplish in life and in our businesses is because we're simply afraid. And if you have somebody to walk alongside you to show you. The boogie monster is not underneath the bed, it's going to be uncomfortable for a minute. And then you're going to move past that discomfort. And just like, you know, when this particular avatar was somebody who was a hairstylist and she was in another salon and decided she could probably do it better herself. And so, she opened up her own salon and seven years in, she had 10 employees or contractors, and now she's looking at her business going, oh my gosh, how did I do this? I'm not a businesswoman. I'm not a business person. I accidentally had success in my business. She doesn't credit herself. And here's everything that I'm doing wrong because I didn't go to school to do this, that's my person.Steve Rush: Awesome. I love that. And if I'm a leader, listen to this. So, be that a woman or a man, because we've all gotten in a bombshell, what's the first steps in unlocking that?Amber Hurdle: I started in the book with that self-awareness with developing that personal brand because, you know, I say that I sell branding and I deliver confidence. And I just so believe that if you were confident in what you are capable of, you can get through those uncomfortable things. He knows like, oh yeah, okay. Well, I suck at math. So, I mean, not all math, but it no big deal. What can I do to improve upon this? And so, it just makes the fear go away. But I think the other thing that a lot of bombshell businesswoman or my bombshell boys as I call it, because I also got, you know, former military writing to me saying, it's like, you wrote the book just to me. And I'm like, really is your name Am? because that's my avatar name.But it's very similar struggles, right. I just happen to write it in a language that was, you know, really intentional for women, but having a plan. And I say that almost giggling in the year 2020 when we're recording this, because we all had a plan going into this year, right.Steve Rush: Well, yeah, that's the irony of strategic planning is to think about the, what-ifs, the wildcards or scenarios and the great art of great planning is to think of the unthought.Amber Hurdle: Exactly, and that is exactly why when I teach my marketing process, which I call the red lipstick marketing blueprint, which all that refers to is you put in the minimum amount of effort for the maximum results. So, ladies, you understand this. When you've got to run to the grocery store, you might put on your sunglasses and some red lipstick, you look like you're put together and you did not put on a full face of makeup. Other people can do the whole Kardashians, you know, I'm going to put all this layer of makeup on and it really doesn't improve the situation much. And so, I think we all get convoluted in our marketing strategies and we're trying to do everything and everything that's, you know, every new email that comes in and tells us we should be doing this, every trend that sets off, then we get, you know, squirrel and we're over there doing that.What I encourage is that you take things three months at a time. Yes, you want to know your entire years’ worth of strategic initiatives, but let's just mark it three months at a time. Because as entrepreneurs, we've got to be able to be agile. We have to know if this shifts in my business, or if this shifts in the market, I need to be able to quickly shift with it. So that is something that I teach. And whether that's your strategic planning, quarter by quarter or your marketing plan, you have to be self-aware, you have to know what you are great at. So, you can be confident moving forward and where you need to bubble wrap things. And then as an entrepreneur, you need to be able to be intentional about your planning so that you can be flexible when things don't go well. Otherwise, you're starting from scratch and just flailing around in the middle of the ocean without any type of direction of where shore is.Steve Rush: Super wise words, I can almost hear the inner bombshells being released as people are listening.Amber Hurdle: I love it.Steve Rush: So, this is where we turn the leadership lens on you. And we get to hack into your leadership mind.Amber Hurdle: Okay.Steve Rush: Not only you're a great consultant and a business partner, you're a CEO and a leader in your own, right. Amber for our listeners, just share with us your top three leadership hacks.Amber Hurdle: Sure, I'll tell you the ones that really have worked for me. One is assessments. Of course, I’m certified in two assessments. I'm also, fun fact. Professional astrology software because I think that's God's personality assessment for the world. I don't think we can predict the future or anything, but I do think we can better understand ourselves. So, assessments that is a short-fit hack. Mentorship - you don't know everything. There's no way that you can learn everything. So, look to somebody who has been there, done that. Has made the mistakes they can share with you. Who's had the triumphs that they can share with you, who can help you shortcut through life. And you will be in really great shape. And the third thing is really dialling up your people environment. And so that is surrounding yourself with people who think like you. Who have a vibrational energy that matches yours, when you're around them, you feel edified and like you can move forward, and like, you can accept their feedback because you can trust that it's within your best interest and it's not somebody who's just so scared of where you're going and they don't think that they can go there with you, that they're going to try to hold you back.Steve Rush: They’re super snacks, awesome. So, the next part of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is where something in your past, hasn't worked out as well, maybe even screwed up, but as a result of the experience, now use it as a positive in your life, what will be your Hack to Attack?Amber Hurdle: Well, we could go all the way back, I could give you like, you know, 38,000, my early teen mom days, but let's just go to the beginning of this year. So, like most people COVID dramatically impacted my business. Prior to this year really did mostly professional speaking on stages. And then in-person consulting, so as you can imagine. Within 48 hours, my entire speaking calendar through 2021 was cancelled, believe it or not, I actually had a pandemic clause in my agreement who knew, but I did. But that wasn't the right thing to do to hold people to this, I just feel like we're all in this together. So, I gave all of those deposits back so they could refund their attendees. And then within probably about two weeks, because so many of my clients are in hospitality, hotels, and entertainment. They came to me and said, we really need to be let out of our agreement because we're having to furlough our employees. And so obviously they can't pay me. So again, doing the right thing, let everybody out of their agreements. And I was left with not a whole lot. So, thank God my husband and I have multiple businesses. So, it wasn't disabling to my livelihood, but this is my passion, this is my purpose. So, I took a big step back and I was like, okay, the universe, God, whatever you feel comfortable as I tell you the story, and we'll just say the universe for the most vanilla way of saying it, it just shoved everything off of my desk. It just wiped it all onto the floor. And then I was left with the decision of what do I want to pick up off the floor and put back on my desk, moving forward.And while that was painful and frustrating and hard, it was beautiful. And I was able to really get decisive about what I wanted my business to look like moving forward. I was able to be a start-up with eight years of hindsight, and I was able to be a start-up with a beautiful, amazing network of awesome people. And I have had to grind harder this year than in a long, long time, probably since my days at Gaylord Hotels and at the same I have grown more this year then I can remember. And so, I'm moving forward with an extreme sense of gratitude for what that reset did for me. And I'm not saying it's even easy yet. It's not, but I see where I'm going and I'm having those short-term plans and I’m bubble wrapping, everything that needs to be bubble-wrapped. And I'm keeping that positive thought process. I'm seeking my mentors. I have my people environments in place. And I'm standing on my personal brands that I can move through my own process of the velvet machete leadership process.Steve Rush: And you can hear all of that coming through as well. And your mindset is to the untrained ear may not be very obvious, but to my trained ear, your mindset is beaming growth, open, positivity, and promotion. So, well done you!Amber Hurdle: Thank you. Thank you.Steve Rush: The last thing that I'd like to take you to is give you the chance to do some time travel. So, you get to now bump back into Amber at 21 and give her some advice. What's it going to be?Amber Hurdle: Stop being so damn hard on yourself. You are an amazing human being. You are full of gifts. You are perfect the way that you are. You don't need to change anything. There's nothing to fix. You just need to figure out who you are at your core, and then you need to become more of that. And as long as you're doing it in service to other people, you're going to be okay.Steve Rush: Super advice. And for other people listening to that, that's a great message too. So, for folks that have been listening to us talk today Amber, but I know they're going to want to listen to your podcast and find out a little bit more about the work that you do. And of course, developed machete and the bombshell businesswoman. Where's the best place we can send them as they finish listening to this.Amber Hurdle: Absolutely. I would love for you to visit amberhurdle.com/leadershipquiz. And you can take a quick quiz. It does not require an opt-in. Although I'd love to have you in my community. Is a quick quiz to allow you, to see the type of leadership personality that you have and how you show up, I will tell you what makes you the most influential and also what you might want to consider bubble wrapping. And I love this because even the more quiet leaders really get rallied around and they can see how amazing they are and that they don't have to be that big personality leader. And then if you go to amberhurdle.com, you can find the bombshell business podcast there, and then also opt-in for when we launch Velvet Machete Leadership Podcast. Steve Rush: We'll also make sure there is links to the leadership quiz and all your other links are in our show notes, when we're done too.Amber Hurdle: And reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love getting to know people and following what you're doing in your career.Steve Rush: Amber, you've been an absolute, amazing guest. There is some super stories that you've been able to share with our listeners today. And on behalf of everyone that's listening in and on behalf of The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Thanks for joining the show.Amber Hurdle: Thank you so much. I just appreciate the opportunity to get to know you and serve your audience.Steve Rush: Thanks Amber. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.

Kyle Hegarty is the founder and CEO of Leadership Nomad, he’s coach, speaker and a marketing expert also the author of The Accidental Business Nomad. In this episode we can learn about:How to lead in a shrinking worldInvisible culture can trip us all upLocal geographical cultural awareness is so key global successGlobal communication styles differ, adapt or else.Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Kyle:Leadership Nomad WebsiteKyle on LinkedInBook: The Accidental Business Nomad Full Transcript Below----more---- Introduction  Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you.Kyle Hegarty is a special guest on today's show. He's a CEO of Leadership Nomad. He's a coach, speaker and a marketing expert and author of The Accidental Business Nomad. But before we get a chance to speak with Kyle, it's The Leadership News.The Leadership Hacker NewsSteve Rush: When we're all feeling a little down, a good bounce of laughter could be just a tonic to lift our spirits and improve our wellbeing. And it can also help you close business deals too. But ask the question. Do you really need humour to get your message across? Once the pressure's off, you may find that jokes grow organically just from the conversation. We hacked happiness with Nick Marks on episode 18. And now just want to think about how can humour play out in a virtual world? Particularly if we are working across cultures. We often make the mistake of thinking that humour is performative, but we need to think it was something much more clever, more provocative, and something that actually makes sense. In the way that we communicate. Most people are just predisposed to finding things funny and given the chance we all want to have a laugh. This means that the thought required to make a situation funny is a lot less intensive than you might think, but we do need to be thoughtful of how that plays out across cultures, given the diverse range of cultural differences in humour, it's difficult to imagine that there is a universal formula that makes sense of the world.Over at the Humor Research Lab at the University of Boulder in Colorado, they've managed to take a convincing crack at putting this right, Peter McGraw was behind the research and he has a great Ted talk by the way, that illustrates that anything funny has two components in it. It must be unthreatening and it must subvert your expectations. If you take away jokes, benign nature, or this element of surprise, you end up with something that's unfunny at best, and sometimes downright creepy. If you are looking to introduce Humor into your work, McGraw formula is a great place to start. What surprises people from place to place and from culture to culture can be very different. So, let's jump into explore how some of the different cultures impact in the way jokesters can get things right or wrong. We asked a handful of 10 people from different countries and cultures, how they would describe humor at their home. So, their answers provide a really interesting insight, how humor lands in different cultures, but more than this helps us to understand how a universal communication can be impacted. Humor here in Britain tends to be focused ourselves. We love to have a good laugh at ourselves and it's delivered usually at the expense of the teller. We also tend to lean towards deep levels of irony and jokes that push the boundaries of what's socially acceptable. Asking my kids if I’m a great dad joke teller. Hey, did you hear about the guy who had his entire left side cut off? Well, he's all right now! Yeah, that's exactly why I'm not on the stage.In France, Spain and Austria, regional satire is extremely popular. Fuelled usually by competitive relationships. Germany, political satire and social taboos are often at the crux of comedy. Polish people love bitter and sarcastic jokes, and the subtleties are often lost on other nationalities. All of these different approaches to humor are interesting, but one thing that binds us is satire. If you go to Russia, Russian humor is tightly bound to subtleties of the language can often be extremely difficult to translate. In Asia comedies often deeply rooted in language, has such a vast linguistic difference that pervades across the Asian continent could be different in any one of the two countries, even next door. An example, in China, jokes are often deeply embedded into the multi-level of meanings in the words, in the writing systems.And then we get to USA and Canada and both a hugely influential in the field of entertainment and have a diverse range of different comedic styles. In general, though, you can expect the humor from the US to be fast-paced with a lot derived from stereotypes and ethnic differences. And American humor loves to play on the absurdity of seemingly normal events. Whereas Canada often focuses on the light satire, the irony and the parody. South America, Brazilians might describe the humorous, sarcastic, dry, or in touch with the dark side, whilst in Mexico, mockery is used as a way to break down differences and tensions and Argentina humor, by contrast, is littered with references to their history and their national identity. So, in summary, humor is an intensely human habit. It's our way of showing affection, breaking down boundaries and sharing common belief systems while satire having some fun. So, if you are going to introduce humor to your conversation, through communication, just be thoughtful of how that lands in the nation you're sharing it with. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any news, funny stories or insights, please get in touch.Start of PodcastSteve Rush: Kyle Hegarty is our special guest on the show today. He's the Managing Director of Leadership Nomad. He's an entrepreneur, a business coach and author of The Accidental Business Nomad. Kyle, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Kyle Hegarty: Good morning, good evening, wherever you are, wherever we are.Steve Rush: We're speaking to you in Singapore today?Kyle Hegarty: I’m in Sunny Singapore. Not a bad way to start the week.Steve Rush: Yeah, awesome. So, Kyle, you've been referred to as the Indiana Jones of international business. How did you get to where you are now?Kyle Hegarty: First of all, I've been quietly accepting credit for that, but the actual quote was this book is the Indiana Jones of international business. It was in reference to the book that I wrote, not necessarily about me, but I guess I can take credit. I, don’t know, you know, you take the compliments when you get it. You know, I've been doing international focused work for nearly 20 years. I packed up and moved from the United States to Southeast Asia here in Singapore, back in 2006. And for many people who do work in Singapore, they know that it's really kind of a stopping ground to do work elsewhere. We're a tiny little dot of a city state here of about 5-6 million people. While this is a nice little place, most of the action is outside of Singapore. So, it becomes a bit of a hub to hop around and I've been hopping around some somewhat interesting places ever since. And I think some of the stories that we can get into later might aluminate that.Steve Rush: So, what was the key focus of the work that you do with Leadership Nomad?Kyle Hegarty: I'm focused on, I guess it goes back to what I've learned in the last 20 years, because what got me over here 15 plus years ago, I came over and set up my own business, which was a marketing agency. And our job was to build sales pipelines for other companies. And I was also of course building my own sales pipeline. So, I was my own client in this case. Most of what happened was I was working for western companies who were rushing into Southeast Asia over the last 15 years. And they were using us as one of the first starting points to be able to get a foothold into the region. What we did was got exposed to what started out as dozens, and then turned into hundreds of companies who were trying to figure out how do you break into a new market? How do you expand? Not just from a sales and marketing standpoint, but then from a delivery standpoint. And so, what that turned out to be from me, was not only to get more experience in terms of pipeline building and how to do that in different, extremely different and diverse markets. But what I found on kind of accidentally was the fact that this invisible culture piece was tripping all of us up in various ways. It didn't necessarily mean you; you got your marketing wrong. Maybe you did, maybe your product wasn't a good fit, but more often than not, it came down to this other people problem, this communication challenge. And so, as my business evolved, I ended up pivoting a little bit, still do some of the marketing and pipe building. But what I started focusing more on was how do you enhance communication within teams?How do you put that client facing? So, what I'm spending my time doing now is working with companies who are trying to figure out, okay, how do we deal with a distributed global team set up? How do we tighten our communication strategy internally? How do we figure out how to communicate outward to our customers, to keep them and to wow them into expand upon them? And so, a lot of my work has expanded towards more consulting and coaching that focuses on global remote teams. That's a very long-winded explanation for a very simple question you asked.Steve Rush: That's great, great response. And naturally, it’s the unintended consequences of not being really thoughtful when you move to different jurisdictions and different cultures, right?Kyle Hegarty: So, the problem used to be the word move. You would get to the ex-pats learning curve that everybody goes through. And I was joking with some friends here is that, you kind of see the people who've just got here. You can just tell; you can tell the companies that are just starting to put in a marketing campaign or a sales strategy. That was one of the things that triggered my work and triggered the reason that I wanted to write this book, because the patterns kept happening over and over again. I'll give you one specific example. A friend of mine runs a pretty well-known or pretty large fast-food chain. And he manages the fast-food chain for the entire region. And one of the things he said was, and he deals with some venture capital people who come in and they invest, or they look to figure out where they going to expand their fast-food chains and what countries. When the person who gets hired, who's responsible for that expansion, you could tell within a first five minutes of a conversation, whether or not that expansion was going to work based on his or her leadership.  And I agree a hundred percent with that because what he was getting at was the fact that you can have a conversation with somebody. And if they think that their approach expanding into a new market, if they think their way is the right way, if they think their way is the only way, if they think that they've got it all figured out, there's going to be problems. And in the fast-food example to get into even more detail, it often comes down to local tastes and preferences, and you can almost line up fast-food chains that made it versus ones that didn't make it. And you can see those that pivoted, that adjusted, that were flexible, that adjusted their menus slightly, that adjusted their ingredients slightly, how they went to market versus those that kept to their original script from their home country. And to me, I think that industry is one fascinating case study of exactly what I'm getting at, which is, you know, you've got to have a leadership style that has that level of flexibility. And to be humble enough to acknowledge the fact that you just don't know everything right off the bat. Steve Rush: I remember the first time I ever went out to work in Southeast Asia, and it was a trade mission, and I was going out there to drum up new business and I made the fatal mistake of not paying enough attention to somebody's business card. For me, you know, it was just a little bit of paper I used to keep my wallet, but for these people, it was their badge of honour. And it’s those subtle nuances, isn't it? That when you move to a new jurisdiction or indeed not even from a physical perspective, you just integrate with those jurisdictions is having that awareness, right?Kyle Hegarty: Yes, here's to take that to the next level, which is even when you start developing the awareness and the business card example is a perfect one. I remember this story that came from my professor years and years ago because he was focused on Japan and he had this story and he was in the banking industry, very large client. They went out to dinner, I think it was an American, might've been a Brit. Expat would come out, and they said, look, you've got to respect the business card, right. You've got to, you know. They kind of explained, they coach the guy before this dinner, put it on the table, be very focused on it. Show respect for the business card. Fine, all good. He does the two-hand, he bows. Okay, so far so good. Halfway through the meal, someone spills something over the table. It was like a tray of duck sauce or something. And instinctively, we'll call them American for the example. Instinctively, he just, oh, don't worry. He picks up the business cards and he start scraping the duck sauce into a napkin with the business cards.Steve Rush: Oh no.Kyle Hegarty: And the client and his face goes just completely pale and in Japan there was nothing said or done externally, but they lost a quarter's worth of business, which was about a $20 million dollar hit because of this, you know, perceived insult to what had happened. And I liked that story because he was told and he knew, but then when you get into the moment, something hits, we flip to that, I don't know, you call it the croc brain or your instinct. Because our instinct is where we come from, it's what we're used to. His instinct was to help solve the problem quickly and to use what was in front of him to do it. And it overrode what he had just been coached on. And I think that's a really important piece because, you know, I can come in and tell people all these little pointers and things, but when the moment happens, whether it's a conversation or a physical interaction, that's where you've got to dig a little bit deeper. That's where the practice comes in. That's where you've got to spend more time kind of internalizing this stuff and it takes time and it takes effort.Steve Rush: Right.Kyle Hegarty: But I think that the business card things, a good example of that. Steve Rush: Exactly right. So, with the world that has been shrinking emotionally through communication and culture and mediums of ways that we can communicate. That's probably just been expedited so much, isn't it? Through COVID-19? Kyle Hegarty: I mean, yeah.Steve Rush: What do you see has been some of the real challenges or opportunities even, that real shrinking is now providing us?Kyle Hegarty: Yeah, it is absolutely, I think challenges and opportunities at the same time. So, the book that we'll talk about in a little bit, but I wrote this book and it was finished really at the end of 2019. I think we did some touch up stuff in January. I think I got, you know, we put in a footnote about this quirky little illness called COVID that might be causing some issues. You know, writing in January of 2020. What's happened is that everything just rapidly went, virtual teams got distributed, everybody's working remotely and we're using the technology to make it happen. The technology is the least of our problems. In fact, as technology expands, communication skills flatline. If anything, they might even be decreasing. So, one mistake that I think a lot of times gets made is that people mistakenly think that clear technology equals clear communication and it does not.   So, all of a sudden now that we're all distributed, whether it's in a domestic or overseas, there's a lot more conversations happening. And there's, you know, you've got this kind of geopolitical cloud over everybody where there's protectionism, there are trade disagreements, traditional trade is statistically, but, you know, the data says that it's slowing down, but at the exact same time, the digital trade is expanding. The digital driven conversations are increasing. This conversation that you and I are having is, I don't know if we're paying anything to have this conversation from what 6-7000 miles away, crystal clear. The ability to have these conversations is much easier now than ever before. So, you've got this kind of dual thing going on, where there is this growing protectionism, insert any country first. UK first, America first, India first, China first, Singapore first. And any of these countries has that momentum going, but at the exact same time what's happening is that we're all on Skype and Zoom, eight plus hours a day, trying to figure out how to work together better. So, I think that the people that can embrace that paradigm and that contrast to the ones that are going to be able to sleep better at night and at least have a little bit fun during this crazy ride.Steve Rush: Yeah, and also communication of course, is not just verbal. It's through that nonverbal communication and in my experience of having coached some execs through this; has actually lost the capacity for that nonverbal communication. So, they've having to be much more thoughtful in that little square, that is the Zoom window now. Kyle Hegarty: Yeah, it's body language is massively lost. I don't care how good your computer screen is because you miss that informal interactions, you know, it's the elevator ride up to the meeting. It's the moments right after that conference call ends, where you hang up the call and you kind of look at the guy sitting next to you and you go, you know, the little eye roll where you go, oh, here we go again. It's these little small interactions that actually build additional rapport, it enhances communication. It drives the purpose of what is trying to be communicated, or what's going to actually happen. All of those things are temporarily out the window and it will remain to be seen how much of the face-to-face stuff comes back. The clients, the companies I'm talking to, none of them are planning to go back to the way things were at least in that a hundred percent going back, it's this whole mix of hybrid. And right now, quite frankly, it's a mess. I mean, nobody knows exactly what it's going to look like. So, I think that at least a quasi-remote world is what we are all up against. And that lack of small interaction, that lack of body language, the lack of even just that harder to define personal, you know, being in the same place with somebody physically. I think we're going to have to get used to adjusting around all of those factors that actually help build relationships. And that's going to be easier for some than others, but I do believe that there's tools that can help everybody try and march forward in a way that helps out how teams get together and how people end up becoming stronger leaders.Steve Rush: Right, your book, The Accidental Business Nomad published the beginning of this year. What was the real pivotal moment for you when you thought, right? That's, how I’m going to put pen to paper and I'm going to share some of these lessons.Kyle Hegarty: So, the original book, the title was different. And I'll tell you what it was in a minute. I had a client many, many years ago, this American guy out of Texas. And he was exactly what I had mentioned earlier in this talk. He was one of those guys who just was convinced that he was right. He knew what he was doing. His way was the right way. He had this software that was doing very well in the United States and North America. Think they'd had some success in in Western Europe. And they took on one client through a referral in Southeast Asia. And so, he reached out to me and said, okay, I want you to be our marketing person across the region, blast out our message because we're going into Asia. Because I've read a time magazine article that said, Asia is hot, right.This is, you know, 2007 kind of stuff. And he sends over his marketing material that he wants me sending out across the region and its material that got baseball imagery. So, you know, North American, certainly American spelling and baseball imagery and phrases, idioms like, oh, knock it out of the park. And all of these kinds of very specific targeted localized phrases. And I was just disassembling it one by one, right? I was just kind of saying, taking it apart. You do not want to be marketing in other parts of the world like this, because you are sending a crystal-clear message that you do not know these local regions. You don't know the markets. You will be perceived as a foreign company that is just trying to sneak in here. And he got really, really frustrated. And he goes, well, it's all Asian, so why don't you just slap a dragon on it and make it Asian. And that was the moment for me, that I go, you know, there's this concept that I started labelling as slapped dragon behaviour. And I still laugh at it many years later, the original title of the book was going to be called slap dragons, which was exactly about that mindset. You can do that with a physical product, slap a dragon on it, or even in a mindset and thinking about coaching or leading teams, that your way is the right way. And that there's some superficial changes that you can make, and it'll all just work out. And so that client, I think was the caricature that drove me to put this book project together because there were so many variations of him out there.And there still are to this day. And over the years I was keeping an eye on stories of foreign companies. This does not have to be a western companies coming over to Asia and making mistakes. It's happening the other way as well, so you get a lot of Chinese, Indian companies from around. Ozion who started expanding elsewhere. And it's a disaster because they bring their ways, their norms, and they think that's going to work. And so, the book was really born from this belief that companies have rapidly gone global, but people have not. And I wanted to tell those stories and start looking at ways to be able to help get over that mindset and what we can do to overcome it.Steve Rush: And it goes back to your kind of first five minutes impression thing. The same happens in exactly the same way when we're trying to communicate in a new environment. If that internal gut feel says it doesn't feel right, you're going to lose credibility straight away, right?Kyle Hegarty: I started out in one of the early chapters, just highlighting just the typical learning process. I mean the journey that anybody takes when they're learning a new skill, which is the first step is, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And then the next step is that magical moment where you realize that you don't know what you don't know. And it's one of those really important steps to be able to overcome in so many situations in the last 15, 20 years, there's been so much cash sloshing around. There's been so many, especially tech companies rushing into Southeast Asia because they've got high flying stocks back in their home stock market, and they just start slapping dragons onto other regions and, you know, throwing money at problems. And in many cases, they kind of got away with it for a number of years, because there was just so much money, right? You could just kind of buy your way into these, especially the big companies. That's what they were doing, and I believe here in 2020 and beyond, I think that that party's over. The moving forward, I think we're really going to have to buckle down and get a lot more thoughtful about not only how we think about markets, but probably most importantly, how we think about people.Steve Rush: Right.Kyle Hegarty: There were just so many countless examples of foreign managers coming in. High-Paid execs, who, you know, you pay somebody huge salary and you send them to the other side of the world. And man, they might start getting these illusions of grandeur. And so, because of that, you know, they bring their management style. They bring their communication style, their working style, their expectations and things don't work out. And what ends up happening is they end up getting moved around and they ended up going home. And in many cases, they don't ever go from that stage where they don't know what they don't know to, they realize that they don't know what they don't know. So, I found a lot of tech companies were actually really guilty of this over the last 15, 20 years.   Then the third stage where you're trying to get to is okay, now that I realize that stuff's different here, what can I do about it? And that's where I think a lot of the longer-term ex-pats are in, I put myself in that category right now. We're still trying to figure this stuff out. We test different ideas, different frameworks, different styles, different approaches. Let's see what works, let's adapt. That fourth and final piece would be mastery, which I write about one character, I think had achieved that to varying degrees. But, you know, that is the journey that I see and the fact that nobody's really traveling. And there's probably a lot fewer ex-pat assignments being handed out these days. Means that people are doing this stuff virtually. And so, all of this stuff that we've been talking about, you know, now has become distributed. And a lot of those learnings, those moments where you make your business card mistake at the table with the duck sauce, where, you know, you don't get the body language, it's much harder to realize that you're making these mistakes virtually. So, I think that we're in for quite a ride when it comes to global teams and some of the people who are going to be leading those teams, especially for the first time.Steve Rush: Yeah.Kyle Hegarty: And that's what I'm spending a lot of time working on, which is, you know, if you've just inherited or you've just been nominated or are promoted into your first global role and you can't travel, that's a tough gig. But the good news is, there's answers out there, but it takes work.Steve Rush: And investment and practice, I think, was the other thing that you said earlier, because this isn't something you can just reframe right away.Kyle Hegarty: Yeah, I had, it took me, you know, we'll talk about tools later. You have to change sometimes how you phrase things. I talk about, you know, communication styles and I'm used to a direct communication style, but a majority of the planet is not. A direct communication style is asking a straightforward yes or no question. This is going to get done in time. Do you understand? Can I help you? Right. I mean, just basic close ended questions. I'm used to that, and especially under pressure, under stress, that's what I fall back on. And what I had to do was to figure out how to rewrite that or re scripted or rephrase it all, to be able to be more effective in different conversations. And what I had to do, I physically had to print out stuff that I had on my wall, in front of me and my desk at home which had different phrases. So, it helped me avoid, in this example, close ended questions. So, stop using the words, you know, can, can you do this? Does that make sense? Is this clear? Try to get rid of those words out of my vocabulary for a lot of these conversations and then change them to what could be called softer or just variations of phrases. I wonder if we should take a minute just to backtrack and just walk me through what your next step is. And so that's a very important difference. The difference between those two ways of communicating can make or break a relationship and a team success. And if you're a small business, can make or break your entire global strategy, which sounds a little bit extreme, but definitely seen many, many companies closing up shop after spending a couple million dollars, finding that they just weren't making any traction.Steve Rush: And it says tiny little things. That means such a lot too.Kyle Hegarty: That's what I've seen and you know, and it's not easy. Maybe I'm more of an extreme case. I mean, I needed to really, really work on this stuff. And that's why I had these printouts. I know it's a weird kind of example, but that's how I was able to stop myself from making the same or from using my communication style that I was used to, and to be able to adjust.Steve Rush: The book is a bit of a survival guide for a shrinking world and it's full of survival tips. And by the way, I love the way that you presented the book and it is quirky, and some really great stories in there. The one that was really funny, and I really wanted you to kind of share with our guests is, and you titled this, when Confucius just Skype Socrates.Kyle Hegarty: Yeah, and the 2020 version, I probably could have updated it to Zooms Socrates. Some of us are still using Skype, but, you know, there was a little bit of prescient there and the fact that this is really what we've all turned into, right? Which is this Skyping, WebEx, Zooming teams all the time. What I was trying to get at with that chapter, there's a lot of research that's happened. I've been talking this whole conversation about different communication styles, different working styles. I'm not the first person to ever go through this. You're not, this has been going on for ages, these challenges. And there is an entire industry of research and researchers that have, and continue to look into exactly these challenges that we're talking about here. What these researchers are doing is they're looking at cultural, communication style, working style differences in different parts of the world. And they're trying to measure what those differences look like. I've talked about how my communication style was more direct. Well, you can go out and see data that shows you country by country, where other countries fall on a communication spectrum. Now this is all macro data. So, you know, you got to be careful with this because obviously it does not reflect every individual, it's kind of, you know on a bell curve, but it's a really good starting place to be able to measure this stuff. They are measuring how people like to handle conflict. Do they like to be direct and confrontational to solve problems, to kind of talk through issues and be kind of just going for it, or do they solve problems in very different ways by saving face, by using back channels, to be able to get to conclusions?  And there's not a right or wrong answer here, but if you can understand what those differences are in these different working styles, if you can understand it, if you can start to measure it, then you can start coming up with ideas as to what you're going to do to overcome it. So, the example of the Confucius versus a Socrates was looking at some of the background of this stuff. It's like, where did these differences come from? And I was referencing heavily from a few research books that have come out and what I did, having read it, you'll understand this. I basically took a lot of this heavy academic research and I tried to synthesize it and see; how the author explains this to me after one too many drinks at a bar? And you'll notice in many of the chapters, there's a lot of bar scenes and what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to have some fun with this, but how do you take this somewhat dry topic of cross-cultural data and all this research, if you read the primary material with which I've slogged through. Oh, my God, the acronyms and the way they phrase things. I mean, they're not oftentimes writing for a general audience. They're writing for their peers. And it's really hard to get through if you're not used to that writing style, but what they're writing about is so important and it's more important now for people than ever before, since so many of us are now just working globally, whether we deliberately did or now it's, you know, in many of us it's accidental. What I'm trying to do then is say, okay, here's all the stuff that I've read. Here's also what I've seen. Let's push this through a couple of bar room conversations to be able to give you the survival guide, just to get you started. And I think that that comes into a pretty big way in that chapter of a Confucius Skyping, Socrates as told through a half drunken Taiwanese guy, as he's explaining some of the different research, the different stuff that's out there and especially the East versus West differences.Steve Rush: Yeah, and it's those contradictions, isn't it? I think it was really quite neat.Kyle Hegarty: One of the things that's frustrating, certainly as a coach, as a trainer of this stuff, is that, you know, people would just say, well, just tell me, give me the answers, what do I do? And it's oftentimes it's complicated, and sometimes it's more tricky. You can't just bottle this stuff up, and some of the contradictions, I feel like that's a very western approach. Which is, what is the survival guide? Even my approach to this was a very western approach to trying to articulate what these challenges are all about. Whereas other parts there's more of an embracing of the contradiction. The contradiction itself is the answer, and that gets kind of very flighty and metaphysical and theoretical. But it's kind of a fun conversation if you're willing to go there from time to time. But I think it also helps explain some of the mindset differences and some of the ways business is so different in some parts of the world. And in China, one example when they did a recent crackdown in air quotes of some of the lavish spending from government and CCP Officials, and they were going after these guys who were spending all this money. So, one of the things that they prevented was, you weren't allowed to use five-star hotels, and this could decimate a hotel, especially if you're in Beijing and you're running a five-star hotel, what do you do? Well in China it's very simple. You knock a star off of your hotel and business continues as per normal and problem solved. And it's that kind of lateral thinking, which is one of those things that I think many westerners myself included kind of chuckle at because you wouldn't think that as necessarily the immediate answer, but in a place like China, that would be the immediate way to think about it because there's more of this kind of a swirling contradiction of the way to solve problems. All you have to do is knock a star off and everybody's happy.Steve Rush: So, I'm going to turn the leadership lens on you now. And I'm going to tap into your leadership mind and ask you to share with our audience, Kyle. Your top three leadership hacks?Kyle Hegarty: I'm going to give you a 2020 version of this just because it's, you know, we're in such a weird fluid time, but one tool that I'm using a ton with companies and with my coaching, it's a variation of, it's what I'm calling a communications contract. You can look these things up. There is variations of them all over. I've kind of built my own. That takes into more of a global team perspective. A communications contract is a way to take a step back, take a breather with your team. And just to acknowledge almost to use it as an example is an excuse to rewrite the rules of engagement. Some of us were just thrust into a remote team environment. Some went to A-B team splits, some are inching back to the office. Some don't want to go, some do. It's a mess, and there's not going to be a one size fits all answer. A communications contract is a way to get a team coming together and to walk them through a series of questions, just asking everybody to come to a general agreement as to what are we going to allow and not allow from a communication standpoint, what technologies are we going to use? What are the rules of engagement or off hours conversations? What's the expectation if something pops in over the weekend? How are we going to check in with each other? How are we going to deal with the softer relationship building stuff? When some of us like these Zoom wine tastings, but others go crazy with this stuff. What are the rules here? And it's kind of a helpful way just to have a team go through this exercise to be able to write their own, come up with your own plan of attack here.  I have my own template. I think it's available on my website, leadershipnomad.com, but you know, look that up. So, I find that that's a really helpful one. The second one, if you are dealing with any type of overseas international global team situation, there's data out there.Steve Rush: Right.Kyle Hegarty: There is decades of research that looks into some of these working style differences. I try to lightly and in a fun light-hearted way, introduce that concept. There are other books, I've listed some of them in my end notes and footnotes as well. It's worth reading up, if you find that you were working more and more in a international environment. And then the third one, and I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but you know, this is a time for introspection. You can't adapt. You can't change your behaviour unless you understand what your behaviour is in the first place. So one of the things I think that happens for thoughtful ex-pats people who go through that culture, clash, that learning curve is that you end up learning a lot about yourself, because the stuff that you do on a daily basis, most of the time, we don't really think about it. But then when all of a sudden, when you're put into a foreign environment, your behaviour actually starts sticking out. And it's these moments where you can actually reflect and say, well, oh, that is kind of the way we do things, but I'm noticing it's not the way this person is doing it. Again, without putting a right or wrong lens onto it. Let's be able to define what makes us tick. So, understand, take the time to understand our communication style, our working style.Steve Rush: Yeah, great advice. Thank you so much. So, the next bit of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is where we explore with you, something that hasn't worked out so well, but you've used that as a lesson in your life and is now a force of good. What would be your Hack to Attack?Kyle Hegarty: Oh man. In many ways, the book was exactly that, which is like, you know, I've kind of put myself into these stories to say, here's the goofy mistakes that I made. And you know, there were many of them. I guess my bit of advice would be, you've got to be able to treat people the way they want to be treated, rather than assume you want to treat people the way you want to be treated. And that was one of the big lessons that I've learned along the way, in terms of making mistakes, in terms of hiring people who I think were the right fit and managing people and incentivizing people who I would incentivize the way I want it to be incentivized. And so, all of this goes back to that self-awareness and the ability to realize that your way isn't necessarily the right way. Steve Rush: Wise words, Indeed. So, the last bit that we get to do together, Kyle is, you now have the chance to do some time travel. You can pump into your 21-year-old self and give yourself some advice. What would your advice be to Kyle at 21?Kyle Hegarty: Slow down, and that would be my advice, slow down. These things, you know, I think I've always had that not aggressive, but certainly forward-thinking ambition to just constantly trying something else, something new, getting frustrated quickly if things don't work out. And I think that one thing that I've learned over the years is develop your core thesis, your core purpose, your ideas that you want to try and let them kind of evolve at their own pace at their own time. You can't always force things to go faster because oftentimes the faster you push the slower things end up working, and I've seen this time and time again, especially in global teams, if you want to speed up results, you've got to actually slow down. And that's one of those contradictions that we talked about here today, which, you know, scrambles the brain a little bit, but that's also what keeps things fun and interesting. So that would be my advice to myself.Steve Rush: Awesome advice. So as folks have been listening to this, we want to make sure that we can connect our listeners with a bit more of an understanding about what you do. Where's the best place we can send them?Kyle Hegarty: My websites, leadershipnomad.com, and there's bunch of links there to resources, to the book, et cetera. So that's probably the best place. The only real social media I'm on is LinkedIn. I play around on Twitter a little bit, but so LinkedIn, you can find me through my name, my Twitter handles is @LeadershipNomad as well. That’s it, That's the space I play in.Steve Rush: Awesome, and we'll put those links in the show notes as well.Kyle Hegarty: Thank you so much.Steve Rush: So, Kyle, it just leaves me to say, thank you ever so much for taking time out of your busy schedule today. It's been really, really super meeting with you, speaking with you and learning more about the survival guide. That is The Accidental Business Nomad and wish you every success of what you do next. And thank you for being on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.Kyle Hegarty: Yeah, thanks for the invite. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.   

Ryan Berman is the founder of Courageous, the author of the book “Return on Courage”, a keynote speaker and host of The Courageous Podcast. In today's show we explore:Why courage is a prerequisite for leadershipThe definition of courageWhat’s common between all courageous leadersUnderstand your core values to assist in unlocking courage.Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Ryan:Courage Brands Website - https://www.couragebrands.comRyan on TwitterRyan on InstagramCourageous Podcast Full Transcript Below ----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Ryan Berman is a special guest on today's show. He's the founder of Courageous. He's the author of Return on Courage, a keynote speaker and host of The Courageous Podcast. But before we get a chance to speak with Ryan, it's The Leadership Hacker News The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: Courage is a prerequisite for truly great leadership. While it has many faces at the heart of courageous leadership is the willingness to take action and mist uncertainty to do what's right over what's expected and to risk failing and falling short in the process. The reason is unless leaders are winning to lay down our psychological safety on the line for the sake of those that we serve no amount of brilliance or showmanship will ever suffice. Now, one such leader who demonstrates great coverage is Reid Hoffman. The co-founder of LinkedIn, despite many people telling Reid he'll never win. He'll never succeed. And LinkedIn will never work. He forged ahead with the creation of a global billion-dollar company and turned those doubters around. Throughout his life, his life's mission was to enable and communicate through networks, emotions, and stories. And the irony is as whilst he's been incredibly brave, he now also facilitates braveness and courage to help others unlock their courage and entrepreneurship reach. Reid first act of corporate courage came from walking into a magazine editorial office at the age of 12, having read pendant article when he presented the findings to the editor, the editor was so pleased that Reid was offered a job. Throughout his life, he took a view of seeking out people, not like him, but who were opposed to him. And when studying at Oxford at a time where Apple stock price had plummeted, he was able to invest a small amount of money in Apple. And at the same time launch a new product that he called SocialNet.com, In 1996. He started out as a dating site, also connecting sports clubs and friends, and in parallel, having launched an early version of the PDA called PalmPilot, which is a mobile computing device. And having unintentionally attracted lots of eBay sellers encouraged his investors to pivot. He encountered fierce opposition from them as this was not their target market. Despite this, he encouraged them all to be courageous and pivot entirely away from the mobile device, but focusing in entirely on payments using an early version, which has later become PayPal. This was a courageous move, as he had to convince eBay, not drive them off the platform as they had their own payment system, visa to withhold the payments and not shut them down. And he also had to persuade the federal government that he wasn't a bank. And this resulted in true disruption of an industry that was very established and very heavily regulated at the time. Faced with being sued by the fed for money laundering, remap with them and challenge their whole way of operating and ask some crazy questions such as, what defines a bank? which subsequently led to the way that banking license reform played out across the world. PayPal became such a force. The only way that E bank-controlled PayPal was to buy them. When he first to his well-established entrepreneurial friend network with the idea of LinkedIn, most said it would never work. Why would I allow access to my well-established network? He managed to convince 20 of his friends to sign up on the service and described the process like throwing himself off a cliff and assembling the airplane on the way down building as he learned. And as it developed, now a multimillionaire in his own right known as the start-up whisper of the Silicon Valley, he has made early investments against the status quo, showing courage where others didn't have that conviction, including in investment such as Facebook, YouTube, Yelp, Flicker. He's now a partner at Greylock, essentially a Venture Capital Firm, which in its own right, is now worth over $10 billion dollars. And whose portfolio includes companies such as Airbnb, Instagram, Dropbox, Pandora, and Workday. His premise for all his investments is clear and it follows a very simple five-step process. One, does it solve a problem that people don't know they have? Two, is it transformational disruptive? Three, is it a great scale mission? Four, does it have an interesting application that can help the consumer? And five, will it create world-class entrepreneurs?  So, when you ask the question, what was it that sets Reid apart from others? The answer lay with action and a lack of fear of failing. That's been the Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, information that you'd like to share with our listeners, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: We've got a very courageous guy on our show today. Ryan Berman is the founder of Courageous, which is a business change consultancy. He's also a speaker, podcast host of The Courageous Podcast and author of the book Return on Courage, Ryan, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast? Ryan Berman: Hey man, thanks for having me. How are yah? Steve Rush: I'm really good. Delighted that you're with us today. For folks that are not familiar with your work and what you do at Courage. Just tell us a little bit about the backstory, to kind of how you've arrived at doing what you are doing now? Ryan Berman: Yeah, let me start by doing what you shouldn't do. I want to correct you out of the gate; that I don't actually know if I'm courageous, you know, I'm a compensated observationalist. Meaning, I've been able to take it quiet and go around the country and here in the States and interview people who are courageous and try to sort of connect the dots on how they're doing it and taking what I learned over three years of doing that has put me in a position to at least talk about what it takes for people to be courageous. It's funny, I met with Bob Iger who was running Disney probably six months ago and our books had come out and we swap books. And I remember saying to him, man, like, there's a big difference between observing courage and living courage. And you are living courage at Disney, like with Disney Plus and the things that they have created. And so, you know, am I an expert on courage? Do I want to nudge my clients to be more courageous? And do I give them the reasons we need to be courageous? Absolutely. Do I believe that courageous ideas are the only ones that matter? Absolutely. In my background, I'm a recovering advertising guy and I learned in New York city from the madmen days, those were my mentors and I've done creative work even till today, we're doing work for like Google and Charity Water and Major League Baseball, Johnson and Johnson, Caesar's Entertainment and their partnership with the National Football League. That's the one in America with their hands, not your feet. And now, like I said, anywhere where a company really needs to re, whether that's re-energized people or rethink an idea or re-invent tomorrow. We're swooping in and bolting onto teams and helping them muster the courage to take action on that change. Steve Rush: Isn't courage a perspective though? So, someone argue that for you having the wherewithal to pivot from your career. Watch, learn, observe, contact these global organizations. That's surely got to take courage, right? Ryan Berman: Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of a, to your point, it's a relative thought. Meaning, I'm a metaphor guy, so forgive me. I'm going to speak in metaphor today, but imagine you're a skier and we get you to the mountain and some skiers are bunny slope people. Some, some skiers are jumping out of helicopters on the black diamonds or double black diamonds. And so, I think the big takeaway is if I can't get you to the mountain. If there's no willingness to be courageous, then I'm the wrong guy for you. But once we get you to the mountain, we can start to build that courageous muscle. And it really is about the mindset, you know, in business, you know, this is exactly the time of year where people are goal setting for 2021, 2022. And what we usually do is we apply that skillset, like who can help me achieve this? And what's missing is the metal and the mindset, the courageous mentality to get you over all those hurdles you are about to embark on. If you take on a hard-new task called change, Steve Rush: Right, so what would be your definition of courage? Ryan Berman: Yeah, you know, this is the question, this is the question that sent me down my own personal rabbit hole. Because if you look at the dictionary definition of courage, it's the ability to do something that frightens one. And I don't know about you, but like that doesn't sound attractive to me. Steve Rush: Not particularly empowering, right? Ryan Berman: Yeah, let's do that. And by the way, do something terrifying at work and like, please step forward, I'm taking a step back. Part of my journey of writing return on courage was could I come up with a better definition of courage, a more utilitarian version that while you're in the messy middle of a project that needs courage, you can recognize, you could spot, Oh, this is exactly a moment where we are being courageous. And so, you know, and by the way, you can imagine like my own mental sparring on like, who am I to judge the dictionary definition by the way of a word, right? Steve Rush: Right. Ryan Berman: A guy that didn't go to an Ivy league school. But here I was, you know, the first six months of the book writing process was really trying to come up with this definition. Where I landed was three levers of courage. There's knowledge, there's faith and there's action. And, you know, you think about business and people wish that they had every bit of data, they needed to make a call. And if you're going to wait for a hundred per cent of the data, you're just going to get past, you're going to get passed by a competitor, but knowledge is important. You never going to have every bit of knowledge you need, which is why we need faith. We talk about faith; we're not talking about it from a religious sense. We're talking about it from an intuition sense, from a belief sense, from a feeling sense. And then how often in your career have you had the knowledge to make a call and you felt it was the right move and you do nothing about it. So, the action piece is the critical difference. It's the piece that takes you from doing something and not doing something. And that's the irony here, doing two or three in any directions is not courageous, right? Knowledge plus faith without action is paralysis. And faith and action, without knowledge is a reckless move. And what I've learned is knowledge and action without faith. Like if you're numb on the inside, you're probably just going through the motions, you're working on status quo. And when your idea hits the market, it's going to blend in with the thousands of thousands of other ideas. It's not going to do what it needs to do. So, you know, what we do is try to help companies think through like, you know, which knowledge should I be following? How do you actually build internal and external faith with your employees or customers? And where do we take action? Steve Rush: That's a really neat metaphor. And ironically, you talk about intuition and faith and intuition is one of those things that you see in great leaders who could rely on their intuition. They use it, they recognize that it's got some deeper sense of understanding. Cause it comes from that unconscious part of our mind, right? Ryan Berman: You know what, maybe that's another book. I just know, if the mind, the head part is the knowledge part and somewhere below the head part, right. I don't know if it's the heart or, you know, even started to explore this idea, Steve, of like, you know, we know where our mind is, right. We know that's up top, we know where our heart is. But where's our soul? Like where exactly does our soul reside in our body, is it everywhere? And in some ways, I think that faith part, that feel part, you know, finding that soul part of your company should be living everywhere. And I think that's part of this conversation too. It's like helping companies find their soul again and what makes them special. And then once you have that on lockdown, you know how to take action in all facets of your business. Steve Rush: That's really fascinating. So, your book Return on Courage is a bit of a playbook for helping people with that courageous leap of faith when they're going through change and transformation. What was it that kind of gave you that energy to put pen to paper? Ryan Berman: You know what? If I'm very honest, it was a devious attempt at first to market my creative marketing agency in a city that's not known for creativity. You know, my company is in San Diego, you know, we're known for fish tacos, not for solving, you know, massive complicated business problems. And back in 2015, and I said this earlier like we were growing and doing very good work, but the golf course conversation, as I would like to call, was complicated. We would find a decision-maker who would fall in love with us and knew that we had done the homework and that we were passionate about the work, but then when they would have to go to the CEO and on the golf course and explain. Hey, we want to go with these guys down in San Diego. They're like, Ooh what? Let’s use someone in LA or New York. And overlay the fact that, you know, we were fully certain that Courageous Ideas were the only ones that matter that if we built like a point of view piece on courage, that would be an asset that we could drop on the desks of decision-makers. And that would give us a step up on the competition. And then of course what happens like great storytelling is I go on this three-year journey and get quiet and just interview what I call the three Bs. The brave, the bullish and the brainiac, you know, on the brave side, it was astronauts and tornado chasers and navy seals and army infantry, men and firefighters. And just like, how do they do what they do? I was fascinated by how they could put their life on the line and why do they put their life on the line? And then on the bullish side, it was the C suites, or vice presidents and up at Google and Apple and Amazon, some of the biggest companies in the world. And you would think that it was the little company that could be agile and nimble but these big companies are figuring out ways to stay ahead of everybody else. And then on the brainiac side, it was like clinical psychologists and Cambridge PhDs and co-writer of the secret and people that really study the way that we're wired. And, you know, I went to television radio school. So, I had no idea what's going on in the inside here. And I wanted to understand, like, what's really calling the shots and you throw all that in the soup and you come out with a process for teaching leaders, how to be more courageous, right? Where do you take knowledge? How do you unlock that faith and where do you build action? And, and you know, the big joke was sort of on me. I wrote the book to position my last company. And imagine a thousand days later going to your two partners and saying, guys, I'm leaving. Steve Rush: I bet that went down well. Ryan Berman: Yeah, you know, it's unfortunate because, you know, I went into it going,  this is an investment we're going to make as a company. And the truth is it was an investment like I wrote the book first because I feel like I needed the book. Like I needed to get myself strong. So yeah, like I said, I wrote it to position the company. It gave me the courage to fire myself and I've found something that I'm madly passionate about doing. And when your company is called Courageous, Steve, your phone doesn't ring for all those unqualified leads now and only rings when you have the right person who's willing to take on change, or at least to have that conversation. And, you know, the amount of time wasted on unqualified leads goes away because we're very focused on like, where do you need courage? And how do we push that forward inside the organization? Steve Rush: I think it's super neat. The fact that you went through that whole self-discovery of your own limitations around where you were courageous or not, as the case may be to end up doing what you're doing now. I think it's just really super neat. Ryan Berman: You know, it's terrifying too, right? Because about a year before I was leaving is when I knew that I was in the wrong place for me. And, you know, the irony is how can you write a book about courage and not make the courageous choice yourself? And so, I don't feel like I really had an option at this point. Steve Rush: Right. Ryan Berman: It's like, well if you're going to write the book, you got to live the premise. And you know, it's one of those things too, that the doors that open up when you finally take action on the things in your own life and start designing your own life along with your value system. And I never thought I'd be a keynote speaker. I never thought I'd be an author on a topic like this. I'd never thought I'd have my own courageous podcast where we were having really amazing guests come on ourselves. And you just sort of follow the thread and you keep going, you're at peace being in the middle of it all. And you just see where it takes you. Steve Rush: And that's part of being courageous too, is letting go of what you believe to be true and letting stuff happen, right? Ryan Berman: Yeah, what are you controlling that you really shouldn't be controlling? And what aren't you controlling that you should be controlling? If that makes any sense whatsoever, right? Steve Rush: It makes load of sense to me. Ryan Berman: You know, like one of the things I found myself say recently, and I'd love your take on this. Is like, you know, there's this famous line that the customer is always right. I don't think is always right. Like, especially if you've discounted your product completely, and you've now like landed on the wrong customer. And the only reason they're interested in you is because you've discounted your product for so much. That is not the right customer, and I believe the values are always right. Like if the values of the company are set and they're not BS, and they're real, that should be what's mirroring the people in your company, your products, your communication, and your customer. So, if the values are always right, which is a place I think you can control, right? Like that is on you to control that. Then there's an arrow that lives directly from those values all the way through to the customers that are acquiring buying your stuff, whether it's content or a product.Steve Rush: My thoughts are the customer is always right in their mind about what they feel, what they want, what they want to experience. But in facts, it's more about the fact that you haven't got the right customers. Ryan Berman: Agreed, and I liked the way you said that too. Like, because I think realistically if you're going to run into my brand for the first time and I'm going to give it to you for 50% off. Good for you, take it. But when I try to try to charge you full price, you're probably looking somewhere else. Steve Rush: And then, therefore, they're the wrong customers. Ryan Berman: Correct. Steve Rush: Because they don't see the value in what you're trying to do. Right? Ryan Berman: Yeah. Steve Rush: Got it. Now in your book, you have a question I want to put to you. I'm dying to find out the answer. The question was, what do an Astronaut, a Navy Seal, the co-founder of Method, the former VP of Communications at Apple and the President of Domino's all have in common. What is it? Ryan Berman: Wow. Okay, by the way, you the first person to ever ask me this question and the answer, the obvious answer is they weren't afraid to take action. Steve Rush: Okay. Ryan Berman: All of them. Steve Rush: Right. Ryan Berman: Even with the obstacles in the way, you know, Dominoes throwing out a family-wide recipe and then having the courage to change that and tell America that they changed it or an Astronaut, who's not afraid to take action and fulfil her dream of going into space. The, you know, the CEO, founder of Method, having the courage to look at a whole category of how it's always been done and yet still going on that long journey. And I'm finding a new formula, that's a cleaner formula that they call themselves the people against dirty. And pushing forward with that formula. I mean, I love the Method soap story, because it is a commodity category that they found a way to make soap cool. Like people want to work for a soap company. How amazing is that? Steve Rush: That's nice. That's really cool. Ryan Berman: The point is like, if soap can do it, any category can do it, right? Like if you can make soap cool, right. Same thing with Domino's, right. I tried to pick commodity arenas. Domino's right, this is cheese, this is sauce, this is dough. They found a way to take their stock price from $3 dollars to $300 dollars, their return on courage just by changing the formula and then being vulnerable with America here at least, where it started and saying, oh yes, we did. We changed everything from the crust up. Really played well here in the State. Steve Rush: So, while we're on the food metaphor and you're a great storyteller. In the book you have for a fact that leaders have got to have this taste for courage. How would that manifest itself? Ryan Berman: A mean, I think where it came up was with an interview with a guy named Jay Coen Gilbert. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with B Corporations over there, it's like the good housekeeping seal of approval for purpose-driven companies over here. Jay before he was doing this was running a basketball and apparel brand called AND 1. It did have a really good run like 15 years ago. And the conversation was like, you know, it's interesting because courage to me. This is Jay. And he goes, courage to me is not like a right in front of you thing. It's a peripheral thing because you're so focused on the day to day. And you've just got so much on your plate, but if you just put the business on timeout for one minute, you recognize how central this concept of courage needs to be. If you're going to win the long-term game, and that was it. It was like, how do you take this concept that sometimes isn't top of mine, it's this peripheral idea and start to bring it back to the top of mind, because if this is the difference, and I truly believe that courage is a competitive advantage for any company who can unlock it. And when you look at the staggering statistics of how many companies are failing or dying off, it is absurd. You're going to have 9,000 brands that rattle on and off the fortune 500 here in the next six decades. Steve Rush: Yeah.Ryan Berman: And I think of all things it's knowing like, okay, this is a moment where we can be courageous and being overt about talking about like, this is the opportunity with your team. Steve Rush: I just love that, really simple and that's the premise, isn't it? It's around something is in an unconscious making that front of your mind. So that it's really clear what action you do need to take. Ryan Berman: And I think that's the issue too. Like you probably have, like, even if you're, like think about your listeners, like if you made it 18 minutes in here today, and you're a curious soul and you want to be better and you want to be proactive at your work. But the question is like, does anyone else at your company actually listening to this podcast as well? And maybe that's how it starts. Is like, get all 10 of your teammates in a room and listen to this podcast at the same time. Because if you're playing up one playbook and they're playing off of another, you can see why we have a hard time with change, and that's the thing. The whole point of the playbook is to get us all on the same page, all having the same conversation, which is hard to do when you have so much other stuff going on in your life, you're trying to balance a family and you're going through a pandemic and you just don't want to get fired. And, you know, there's all of the normal things that we don't like to talk about, but we should be talking about because a hundred percent of your time is not just the 80 hours or 60 hours you spend on your business. It's all the other things too. I think the minute you bring context into the equation, then you can start to address, okay, we really don't have that much time. And If we're going to jump in front of somebody, let's make sure we give them our best shot, which is again, I know I'm a broken record here, but why it feels so strongly about the courageous idea. We're not wasting people's time and it's going to break through. And hopefully that starts to connect and land with people. Steve Rush: And it's also learned behaviour, right? Something you have to practice at. Ryan Berman: I really do believe that to be true. I think it's a muscle and it's like going to the mental gym and starting to grow that muscle. And I'll give you an example in the book. So, the way is book broken down, I don't actually say this in the book, but like the front half of Return on Courage is like the why now. Like why now of all things do we need courage? And why now do I see this as a competitive advantage? And we kind of like go through the four truths of what I call the business apocalypse. And if one of them was happening by themselves, that'd be brutal enough. But the fact that all four are swirling, you get why we need to make change now. Then there's a three-page chapter in the middle of the book called break glass before emergency.And the idea is, okay, let's get you ready because you need to know how to do this stuff before you actually need it. And then the back half is the, how, you know, we talked here is our why, where's the how and the, how is the building that muscle, as you've stated, it is going to the mental gym, getting the reps you need, which knowledge should you be following? How do we build faith with ourselves or with our team? And then it's go time. Where do we take action? But one of the cool things about the book is sitting with a guy named Jeff Boss, who is Navy Seal. And then I also sat with a woman named Tricia Baylin Chaplin. I'm hoping I just got her name right, who was a bank teller. Now the Navy Seal willingly knows that when they go through their training, they are going to see some things on the other side, right? They call it stress inoculation, by the way, which sounds like marketing to me, but basically. Steve Rush: Its defiantly marketing. Ryan Berman: You know, you're going to see everything in training. So, by the time you see live rounds in the real world, it won't feel the same, you'll be ready for it. And the higher purpose, all that training, you can see why Navy Seal would go through that for whatever reason that they do. Now Tricia, as a bank teller, she wasn't looking to be bold or courageous. She was looking to get a job. And like the only way she gets the job is to pass the actual module, the training module on what happens if your bank gets robbed? And if you don't pass that model, guess what? You don't get a job. She's not looking to be hero. This is up in Canada; she goes through the module. She passes with flying colours and wouldn't, you know, it, a year later, she gets robbed in the bank and she follows the protocol to a T. She tells me a story about, you know, hey, let's not turn this into a homicide and her body just takes over. The training takes over, and afterwards when the robber leaves, she goes to the cage to her boss and she's like, I was just robbed and they react. And she then sees their reaction and reacts off that then finally breaks down and starts crying. But her body went into like autopilot, right. It went into the training that she had learned, and she doesn't see herself as courageous. She just sees herself as like, I was just doing my job and following when I was supposed to be doing. Same thing with Jeff Boss, the Navy Seal, he goes, I don't see anything as I've done as courageous. I see it as a by-product of the purpose I'm pursuing. And so, there's a little bit of irony here, right? Like when you do things that are courageous over time, it feels less courageous the more you do it. And the fear of the unknown as it becomes known, the fear goes away and you do it again and again and again, and you really start to grow that muscle. And then you've seen that thing and it makes it a little bit easier each time out. So that to me is the irony here is like, am I really being courageous? We're almost full circle back at the beginning of what we talked about, I've now like done some courageous things enough times. And I think you got to be careful cause like, you sound really pretentious being like I'm courageous, but when you do those things, it makes it easier for you to try new things and keep pushing forward. Steve Rush: I suspect it's also easier observed by others. So, others will perceive courageous behaviour in others, easier than you might see it in yourself. Is that a fair observation? Ryan Berman: Yeah, I think so. And again, back to it's relative. Steve Rush: Right. Ryan Berman: Right, so what's courageous to you might not be courageous to me, just by the experiences we've both been on. And that, you know, that red bull wing demand, you know, the guy jumps out of planes with no parachute, just the wingsuit, right? Like they've properly trained for that job, right. They know what the weather looks like on that particular day. If it's going to minimize a little bit of the risk and it's so courageous but to somebody like me who has no training and that's a reckless move, that's not courageous. But to that person who is trained for it, their whole lives, they understand the risk that comes up. Steve Rush: So, given your vast watching observations and being courageous herself, what do you say is the biggest blocker for individuals being courageous? Ryan Berman: I think by far it's just the action piece and, you know, cause so many people and this is just the way our minds are like are constructed, right? We have this thing, that's calling all of the shots inside your mind and your body called your central nervous system, right. And that doesn't exactly just come up in normal conversations now does it? Or you're like, hi honey, how's your central nervous system feeling today? Or did you see the game last night? Man, their central nervous system wasn't even there. When you break that term down, central. At the core view system, you're an operating system, you're a computer and right there in the middle is nervousness. Your standard operating system is nervousness and it’s designed to keep you safe but it's sending up signals saying, don't do that. Don't suggest that, don't try that. Here's why, and it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do, but it's a system that's been around a little bit and we really haven't evolved at the level that we thought we could. So, the whole idea is, how do you help people develop what I call central courage system? Like if I can help you develop that muscle, develop that central courage system to combat what your central nervous systems trying to do. It will give you the tools to try and to take action and to start off with maybe a little experiment. And then as those little experiments work, then you turn them into bigger experiments and you can do that even at work. And so, it's recognizing first, cause it's hard to be courageous. If you don't recognize a courageous opportunity, spot that opportunity first put resources towards it, make a psychological safe arena for your team to play in and then get that central courage system going and explore a little bit but experiment a little. Steve Rush: The next part of the show is where I get to turn the leadership lens on you. And this is where you now have to get a bit more courageous because I'm going to be tapping into your leadership mind. Firstly, I'd like to explore with you, Ryan is if you were going to give some advice or tips, what would be your top three leadership hacks? Ryan Berman: Wow, okay. I think the number one hack by far is to really get to know your personal core values and treat yourself like a business. And if you can't rattle off your own personal core values and Steve permission, granted like to have your guests email me@ryanbermanatcouragebrands.com, I will send you the values assessment and it's not lame or anything like that. I'm not asking for anything from you, but like we spend all this time scrolling social media now and I wish we'd spend more time scrolling ourselves. And so, I would get really clear, crystal clear of your top four personal core values. I'd put them in the order that they matter most. And I would start making decisions based off of those values. And I think that leads me to the second hack because once you have that level of clarity, you've got to find tools to operationalize those values. One of the things I still do today is I've changed all my alarms on my cell phone. I've got like multiple lives, but the labels that come up are messages or affirmations that I need to see throughout the day just to make sure I'm like abiding by what I believe in. And I know that sounds silly to be like, well, if you really believe in it, you don’t need a message, but it's just important. Like start my day off, seeing what I need to see right. To stay on, like focused on the straight and narrow. So, you know, my core values, the first thing I see in the morning when my alarm goes off or the values, or sometimes I'll see build strong central courage systems. And it just keeps me focused on the things I need to do. And then I'd say, so however you to operationalize your values, whether that's putting them on a piece of paper on your refrigerator, on your phone or on your lap, you know, your computer, in a tattoo of it on your face, whatever works for you. And then three is mentorship. Find a mentor and that's nothing to do with age. Maybe your mentor is younger than you. Maybe they're older, but like just somebody, I mean, even this is a courageous act, declaring a mentor and say, hey, do you mind? Like if I can, you know, we could talk once a month and I can, you know, ask questions on how you did this. Or, you know, you're my mentor and it's a hard conversation, but I needed one and we spend a lot of time inside our heads and we need to get out of our heads a little bit and bounce off other people. Steve Rush: They are awesome hacks. Thanks. Ryan. And I love the whole principle of thinking of yourself as a business, really neat. Ryan Berman: Yeah, I mean, you know, we do it for all these brands, like, well, okay, treat yourself like a brand. Like, what are you really all about in the world? And by the way, you'll be happier. Like if you can design a life that's based off of your actual values and by the way, okay, let's really kind of just dumb down what values are. Your chemical makeup, okay. The way you're wired. Like, why wouldn't you be more true to that human being? And that's just clarifying your values. Yeah, that feels like me. Yeah, that feels like me. And now that you have that clarity, imagine designing a life around that. Steve Rush: Brilliant, love it. Next part of the show is we call Hack to Attack. So, this is a time where things haven't worked out as well. We may have screwed up, things have bumped into maybe a bit of adversity, but as a result of the experience, we've used it now as a positive in our life, what will be your Hack to Attack? Ryan Berman: By far having the courage to like leave my last company? Cause we were 70% agency. And again, you know, I'm going on this journey to write the book. And like I said, just imagine being realizing in your heart that your values are not perfectly aligned with your partners and that you have different goals and motives. Like I said, it was taking action on that and leaving that even when it was scary and not knowing what was coming up next was a necessary reminder that you only live once. And even though it's scary and hard, if it's the right thing, you should do it.Steve Rush: Love it, thank you, Ryan. Last thing we want to do is take you on a bit of a metaphorical time travel and allow you to bump into Ryan at 21 and give them some advice. What's your advice going to him? Ryan Berman: Wow, one really appreciate the hair you have. Steve Rush: I know how that feel. Ryan Berman: I have it in the right place. But two, you're going to be okay. Continue to follow the choices that you're making and don't forget to enjoy the ride a little bit. You're doing it, I'm air quoting. You're doing it right for you, and keep going. Oh, and declare mentor earlier. I'm stubborn, I can't imagine I'm the only one that's stubborn, but like, you know, being stubborn can sometimes get you in trouble and you feel like you have to do by yourself. And someone once said to me, takes you 40 years to figure out who you are and the next 40 to be that person. And I think there's some real truth to that. So, get there faster with the mentor. Steve Rush: Love that, fantastic stuff. Now for folks listening to us today, talk. How can they get hold of a little bit more information about you, the work that you do with Courageous and also it would be rude of me not to help promote your Courageous brand as well, while we're here, so how can we kind of get people some more visibility about what you do? Ryan Berman: Well, first of all, Steve. I mean, if people are listening to you on the regular, they already know that I feel the same about you as they do. Like when we talked for the first time, it was so easy and we both, weren't afraid to share our own stories. And so, I really do love what you're doing. Steve Rush: Thank you, man, I appreciate that. Ryan Berman: And you and I are going to find a way to work together on something. I don't know what it is yet, but there'll be some opportunity. If you want more on me, like I said, couragebrand.com is a good place to start. If you're ready to really go to the playbook, that would be returnoncourage.com. Or just email me like, if you wanted the core values assessment, ryanberman@couragebrands.com and you know, I welcome questions or comments and you know, like I said, I'm very at peace with the idea that like we're all in different places in our journey. And if I can help in any way, please reach out.Steve Rush: Fantastic, and they'll all be in the show notes as well. Ryan, it's been awesome talking. I've been so pleased that we've met and it's been a while since we spoke last, but it only feels like yesterday. So, thanks ever so much for coming to join us on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. You've been a great guest. Ryan Berman: Thanks Steve. Be good over there. Stay safe. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.

Ceri Hand originally trained as an artist, she has extensive experience working with the arts and the culture sector at an executive level, and now coaches Creatives and Artists all over the world through her business, Artist Mentor. In this show you will learn from Ceri:The parallels exist between the art world and big businessHow difference makes a differenceCreative questions could unlock your business purposeWhy artists are good models for unlocking creativity in business.Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Ceri and Artist Mentor:Artist Mentor Website - http://www.artistmentor.co.ukCeri on TwitterCeri on InstagramCeri on LinkedInFull Transcript Below ----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Ceri Hand is a special guest on today's show. Ceri originally trained as an artist, as extensive experience working with the arts and the culture sector, and is now coach and founder of Artist Mentor. But before we get a chance to meet with Cari, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: As the global pandemic became more and more serious. Companies learned a valuable lesson. The difference between success and failure could lay with creativity. People in creative industries have seen their work undervalued for decades. Artists, photographers, writers, and many more expected to work for exposure or to have their rates severely undercut, not really understanding the true innovation, true value their work could bring to the corporate world. And we saw creativity take a big spike during COVID-19 and during lockdown. As people searched for entertainment during their downtime. We saw creativity flourishing on social media, where people took their creative ideas to various different outlets to share their content. With nowhere to go and a limited amount of things to do the quarantine, just unveiled creativity, some may have never explored before.If you're an entrepreneur or a business leader, who's been forced to rework their company structure due to COVID-19. The chances are that you'd have seen many of your colleagues having to work differently and unlock thinking. And without creativity that have been really difficult, your teams may be now facing challenges and then never seen before. And leaders and business owners are now being called to think differently about how they lead and run their businesses. And as a business leader, I've certainly been challenged to unlock creativity and thinking in a way that me and my teamwork. End or mid pandemic, whichever your worldview. Creativity is not only become highly valuable, but this is an opportunity to thrive versus survive. With the world facing soaring and employment rates. It's not going to be hard to find somebody who fits your creative needs. Like businesses, individuals are scaring to find new ways to market themselves and highlight their skills. And let's be clear, the pandemic is not going to solve any financial professional hardships for creators, at least right away. What people are realizing, however, is that creatives now have a higher value to play in their business. And what business owners need to realize is that there's also a price that comes with that and they should be paid fairly and appropriately for their work that they do. A 2019 Duke study backs us up to in it. Research has found that people find it more acceptable for managers to ask for passionate workers, to work extra hours without pay, sacrifice, sleep, and family time and all of the other demanding tasks. Therefore, the less creative people don't get asked. So, ask yourself this question, is that fair? Not only does it prevent more creative people from making a better living wage, it sends a message that creative work is not work.And actually, the reason behind why so many brands are being successful compared to others, lays with their creative approach. So right now, creativity is King. If you want your brand to thrive in a post covid world, now's a chance to invest in that creativity. That's been the Leadership Hacker News. If you have any news, insight or information that you think our listeners would like to hear, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Ceri Hand. Cari is the founder of Artist Mentor, having previous lead senior director roles with a number of leading art galleries. Ceri now supports artists and creatives. Develop growth and thrive their business. Welcome to the show Ceri.Ceri Hand: Good morning, Steve. Thanks so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.Steve Rush: Delighted to have you on the show. Now, when was it that you first noticed that you really got interested in art or the world of art?Ceri Hand: I guess I was lucky to be raised by a family who were interested in lots of different things in life, but my father was a musician and a teacher. And so, I grew up with lots of creative people. But I guess as an only child, my imagination developed quite early on. So, I was always drawing and exploring ways to record what I was seeing, writing. And I think from a young age, when I was at school, I did things like start school magazine. When I moved schools, I ended up doing save the swans campaign where I made a box for people to kind of put in their Swaddled Festus tokens at the time. So, I guess creativity came naturally, but it was also encouraged as a way of expressing myself. And I think I never thought of it as a separate thing. It was just part of life.Steve Rush: And I suspect for most people listening to that, they could probably resonate with it. Some people would say that they're either creative or they're not creative. And in your experience, is that something that you just have as an innate behaviour? Or cannot that be learn.Ceri Hand: Well, I think that everybody is creative. I think that there are many different ways of doing that, but the imagination is very closely linked to memory. And so, I think that everybody has the potential from a young age, right the way through to old age, to enjoy playing and perceiving the world differently. And I think there are of course, ways of practicing and flexing that creative muscle. And I'm delighted that I've had chance to do that over my career, but I do work with senior leaders in businesses to harness their own innovation and creativity as well now. So, I think it's just a latent thing that people need the confidence to tap into and find new ways of exploring and seeing things from new perspectives. So, I think everybody could enjoy the possibility of being creative themselves, but also learning the language of creativity so that they can access other people's creativity and get real pleasure from it just as they would enjoy music. They can also learn and develop taste, if you like in visual arts, theatre, dance. There is loads of different forms of creativity that people unfortunately have been told is not for them for lots of different reasons. So yeah, I'm a big, big fan of bringing creativity to all elements of out life.Steve Rush: One of the things I noticed, Ceri. As people get older, typically we almost lose that playfulness that is quite natural as a child. And as we grow up, we become a little bit more stiffer and we become a little bit more ordered and we almost unlearn and forget some of that natural play, natural creativity. What do you think causes that?Ceri Hand: Fear? Sometimes as we get older, when responsibilities and obviously earning an income and having some of the stability elements in our life like a roof over our head, of course those things are all really important, but I think the idea of play often returns to people when they have kids themselves and they start seeing the world afresh through their eyes. I think the great thing that we can learn from creative people is that they stay curious. And I know a lot of business leaders understand the value of that now. And so are encouraging that senior leaders to be more curious. And we're asking more curious questions and I guess that's the key thing is that curiosity and learning from people who are not like ourselves is something that actually it's a habit. And we just get out of the habit and sometimes just like when there's a lot of people learning to go from the couch to 5k these days, you know, it's just the idea that actually you might need to practice some of those skills. I think it's something that people think is a habit that when they've got so many other things in their life, they think perhaps I don't need to practice that anymore.Steve Rush: Yeah.Ceri Hand: But I think when they do try a little bit of creativity in their life, they realize how much joy and pleasure they get from it.Steve Rush: It's the one thing that keeps recurring in conversations I have with senior leaders actually. And then I always have a conversation about, when was the last time you practiced at being a great boss? When was the last time you practiced at being a great listener? And it is that habit-forming practice that by being thrown into the depths of being busy, we often don't take a step back and practice doing those things and it’s the same would be any discipline, right? Ceri Hand: That’s right, and I think actually practice taking risks is also something that is a great model from creatives that we could learn so much from. They have, what's called a studio practice, so most artists or creative people have a system, if you like, or a habit that they've developed, whether it's a space that they create, where they have a psychological safety and they fill it full of inspiring things and tools so that they can go in whatever the weather, whatever mood they're in, they have that space where they know that they get into a zone of creativity. And it's just the determination to keep showing up and keep practicing that creative muscle. But also, they push the boundaries of what they know. So, their most amazing thing about creative people is they're curious about so many things like outside their own knowledge base. And I think that's something that I would love to share with business leaders in actually bringing in congress things together, ends up having a much more beneficial results for a wider public. Finding ways of connecting a usual thing and revealing the connections and the possibilities in how we're all connected is something that artists are brilliant at.Steve Rush: And we're seeing the benefits of that now through things like diversity and inclusion, which does a very similar thing. But I guess what you're suggesting is almost taking it to another level, being more diverse in our thinking enough. Access to information, people, resources, right?Ceri Hand: That's right. I think, you know, a difference makes a difference, you know, so I think your team needs to reflect society and your audience. And I think that actually people are much braver and more curious than we give them credit for. So occasionally revealing processes and the kind of people behind the business, also in the same way that people are curious about how artists work and seeing inside their studios, it's really, everybody really understands that content is king right now. And that people behind the content is the story. So, artists are incredible storytellers. So, there's a lot for us to learn from how they weave and connect, what lies beneath language. Kind of sematic experience of life, if you like. So, a feast for the senses and a way of storytelling and bringing us in and through life in a more curious way.Steve Rush: Definitely so. Now you've managed to combine both the entrepreneurial spirit and that creative, artistic flair and have led some seriously big programs and galleries during your time. How did you arrive at setting up the business that you lead now, which is Artist Mentor?Ceri Hand: Well, I guess between a couple of roles. I decided I wanted to focus on the thing that I got the most pleasure from, but also where I thought that I could serve the biggest amount of people if you like. So, I think it was a 2014, I established Artist Mentor as a way of supporting artists at all stages of their careers and empowering them to realize their full potential, I guess, and achieve a greater impact. So, it started as a one to one coaching support and it's partly supporting them to realize their own capabilities, but also feeding back on their practice. And that takes deep listening and deep focus in addressing some of the challenges they have, but also seeing the potential of the work and where they could go. And so that takes some knowledge, so I guess training as an artist myself gave me the opportunity to get inside an artist's practice quite easily. So, I could see where they might be stuck. I can see where they might be holding themselves back or whether it's the media, whether that's the meaning and the content or the ideas. And I think my journey I've had quite a convoluted creative journey myself. So that idea of risk of pushing yourself beyond what you think you're capable of is something that I have experience of and feeling the fear of doing anyway. And so, when I'm talking to artists, I really have deep empathy with just how difficult it is to communicate and to connect with another person through an unspoken way of communicating, but also, I guess, through my own successes and failures over the years. And the idea that you just keep showing up is something that I think I could bring to the table. So, in 2014, I mentored a lot of artists and then went back into working for the contemporary art society and Simon Lee Gallery. So, I had this experience of commissioning emerging and established artists for exhibitions, for the public realm, but also selling and showing their work and placing it with museum collections. So, this broad range of experience working with artists, but also really connecting their work to a much bigger audience, I think has given me a wealth of knowledge and also empathy that I could support artists and help them on their journey.Steve Rush: That sounds great. So, from a leadership perspective, what do you see that the common themes are for those that are leading in the art and creative world versus those that are leading in maybe a more traditional business or can manufacturers, et cetera, what would be the common themes that are consistent between the leaders of those kinds of businesses?Ceri Hand: I think us not just focusing on the big ship, whether that's an institution or an organization, and really focusing on people first, whether that's your audience or your teams and the experiential, I think is something that everybody is really understanding how important particularly post COVID. That's connecting people with feelings and ideas and the imagination and a sensorial experience of their content, if you like is something that's ringing through for many of us. I think also this idea of leadership being vital for every single member of your organization. I think coaching and supporting people become their best selves at work is something that's really crucial. Communication and connecting on a deep level is something I think, in the arts and in business that people understand that harnessing the power of the individual makes a collective experience much stronger and true. And I think the idea that sizes and everything is also something that's coming true for us, that we have lost sight of I guess, power being, having the biggest seat at the table is not necessarily the way to connect with people on a deep level. So, I think people be looking at scale and higher scale and retaining that deep connection with that customer or client or audience is going to be really vital moving forward.Steve Rush: So, they're all really consistent parallels almost, aren't they? With whatever business you're in, it kind of starts with that people cantered approach first. Because without people, we have no business. And at the end there is a customer buying a product of some kind and therefore the proposition and the product might change, but the process is still very similar. Isn't it?Ceri Hand: That’s right, and I think the “why” is important for all of us, you know, really connecting with the story behind the “why” and connecting individual stories, but also the diversity of stories and multiplicity of voices in society is more vital. So, giving a fluidity to your business and the potential for people to input feedback and to harness your audience knowledge and their experiences in life, I think is going to be really vital moving forward. So, it's not a passive consumption of content anymore. Its really audience led, audience focused, and that we as leaders can learn so much for staying close to that relationship.Steve Rush: Sure, and from a wide perspective for me, that's another way of framing, purpose, almost the reason the why you do things, your purpose. Do you find that it becomes more natural for those that are artistic and creative to have purpose, or is again that just another misconception of how people in business perceive the world?Ceri Hand: Yeah, I do think that creative people often have a number of key issues that they return to. Key questions and they are pretty good usually at connecting their personal experience with the way that they see and feel their way through the world. I guess the great thing about creatives is they're not content and happy to stay with what they knew or know. They want to learn, and that thirst for knowledge is the thing that drives them. But there's usually core questions that they keep returning to in their practice, and it grows over a period of time. They keep coming at those questions from a different way, whether they changed the medium, whether it's video or painting one, they might still be asking the same questions, whether it's from a feminist perspective or whether it's about climate crisis, but usually interested in connecting with others. So, in those questions they're asking and implicating themselves, and they're also acknowledging their own strengths and weaknesses in their practice.So, they're self-aware, very self-critical, but also really hungry for change. And they accept and acknowledge the tools that they have and they keep trying to push themselves forward. So, I think that deep purpose, they can't do anything other than being an artist. That's, you know, that's very often the case, but they are super entrepreneurial. So, they do have to fund and find other ways of motivating themselves to bring in income, to keep themselves moving. I think organizations that are full of creative people have a lot of sensitivity and entrepreneurial spirits at the heart. And I think that blend of mixing the sort of practical, and I guess the delivery and production side of things is where potential power is. I think for lots of organizations that I think if we always focus on production and delivery cycles, without constantly coming back to the “why” constantly coming back to, who's this for? Why are we doing it? What difference is it going to make? Who's it for? How is the world going to be better from why we're doing this? Then I think then we're just a self-serving loop that we're existing with it.Steve Rush: That's really neat. So, you mentioned those questions. Are you able to share those little nuggets of self-reflection questions with us?Ceri Hand: It's, so different. I mean, I work with hundreds of artists from all over the world now, and I guess it could be as simple as relationships. For example, you know, somebody may be trying to interrogate power relationships and that could be systems and structures or ecosystems. It could be personal relationships. It could be a relationship between a mother and a son, but there's something about the intimacy in a relationship and the complexities of language and communication between one individual and another. Lots of artists are interested in those kinds of ideas. There are lots of artists at the moment that are interested in the impact of technology on the body and the mind, and they are finding ways to explore the relationship between the analogy and digital, but also on our relationship with AI, for example, and how that such is shaping the way we relate to each other.So, AI, as we know, is determining how we connect with each, but also the kinds of relationships we might connect with. So, it's literally shaping our content that we ingest and digest every day. And so, a lot of artists are really testing the boundaries of what that technology can do and trying to find different ways of having a relationship with surveillance technology, for example. So, there's lots of different obsessions for different artists. And so, there's lots of different motivations, but I would say the commonalities are that they want to connect and have an emotional connection with somebody else and that they want to shift perception. So, for us all, not to just accept the world as is given to us, but to find our own version of the world and to explore all the highs, the lows, the beauty, the horror that is in the world around us, and to find the connecting threads with each other,Steve Rush: You've already convinced me that there are far more parallels to the arts world than to the business world than I'd ever imagined already, and that's really neat. So, thank you for that. If I'm a leader listening to this now, Ceri, and I'm thinking, yeah, I get all this and the need to create that emotional connection. I need to be more creative, but I have much more of a left-hand brain and therefore, you know, creativity, isn't my thing. How would be the way that you would encourage them to start to unlock that? Ceri Hand: I think, I would say think fun, not functional. So, artist studios are a good model for considering what do your team need to around them to be inspired, to be innovative, to push boundaries, to produce great work and to have deeper connections. So, it's the physical environment is one thing, but also the psychological environment, you know, that everybody thinks differently and actually tapping into people's creativity and the pleasure that comes from experimenting and exploring ideas together. So, I would say don't keep doing what you've always done. You know, as leaders, we need to learn new skills, read, listen, explore diversify our interest and that's definitely going to improve our leadership. But I also think bringing your team into relation with inspiring people outside of your business realm and organization, as often as you can. Really can help generate better results. The same as you know, whether it's an arts organization, I would recommend that they bring in a waste management company or a scuba diving company. You know, I think there's so much that we can learn from different organizations that are interest or interrogating difference in a completely different way to us. So, I would say that explore, don't be afraid of risk taking outside of your comfort zone because only good things usually come from it.Steve Rush: Okay, great stuff. And I think you said it earlier, difference creates difference.Ceri Hand: That's right.Steve Rush: So, this is part of the show where you get to turn the leadership lens on you. So, you've been a leader in your own, right. Having led multiple projects, multiple businesses. So, this is where we get to find out what your top leadership hacks are. So, Ceri, what would be your top three leadership hacks?Ceri Hand: Firstly, I'd say be your authentic self at work, because I think it helps create psychological safety with your team. And people need to show up as themselves and caring for your staff and the team on their terms. So, learn their idiosyncrasies  quickly and take responsibility for effective communication and a way for them to enable them to lean into their strengths. I would think talent, not jobs. So, see the leadership potential in everybody. Enable them to get there through support, coaching, regular positive feedback, clear examples of how their contribution and skills make a difference. So, I think they will blossom quicker. I'd take more beneficial risks, delivering a level they didn't know they were capable of. So, I guess it's investing in people and ideas in your organization and everybody from the engineering department to the marketing team, to the customer services team, I think all have fantastic ideas. And very often the senior leadership don't spend enough time with people at different levels in the organization that are really connected to the audience and could contribute some brilliant ideas to develop. Steve Rush: The principle of leadership as a behaviour is really key when it comes to unlocking talent because still people have this perception, that leadership is a job role and it's not, it's absolutely a behaviour as you beautifully articulated.Ceri Hand: That's right. And I see it in everybody, so it's exciting when people discover it for themselves.Steve Rush: It is, definitely is. So, the next part of the show is what we call Hack to Attack. So, this is time in our lives or our work where things may have not worked out as we'd anticipated. But as a result of that event, we've now got some learning and it's positive in our life. What will be your Hack to Attack?Ceri Hand: So I had a challenging year last year where I definitely overworked and I had quite a serious accident and it was debilitating for a number of weeks, but that time really helped me to reflect on my own processes, my working methodologies, my weaknesses, my strengths, but also gave me the opportunity to learn some new things outside of my own realm of experience. So, I was obsessive only listening to podcasts and was very happy to find your this year. And really taking the time to think about how I wanted to move forward and what impacts I wanted to have. Personally, not just at work, but in the world. And I think really reconnecting with my family, my loved ones and became clear that obviously I hadn't spent as much time because I've been working 14-hour days, every day for pretty much a year straight.And I guess when you have a near death accident it pulls things into sharp focus. And I think that that was one key thing, but also, I think that I have always been empowering as many people as possible. And staying, if you like in a senior level. Yes, so many people would say that I was visible, but I guess that idea of stepping into your own light, I think as corny as it sounds, I think I realized that actually very often I had hidden some of my personal viewpoints because I was always working on behalf of another organization. And perhaps that idea of articulating how you really thought we should move forward in life, I guess I'd been a little bit more reluctant to come forward with that because of working as part of an institution. So, I decided to leave my job as much as I love my colleagues at Somerset House.It was one of the best jobs I ever had and I really loved everything we achieved there. It was an incredible time in my life and I learnt so much from everybody I worked with, but I think I realized that actually I'm more interested in the people than the big ship. I'm interested in enabling people to be their best selves, whether it's at work or in their own creativity or as professionals. And I think that I hadn't really understood deeply just how much I've learnt. I've worked really hard for 30 years, and I realized that actually I like the ignition moment. I like helping people to make magic happen. I like helping people to make things happen in the world, they hadn't imagined. I could improve things for the people. So, I decided to leave my job and COVID happened. I was going to take another role, but I decided not to. And so I decided to set up Artist Mentor so I could try and help as many people as possible. And I think all of those things of bringing myself closer to an audience, whether that's artists or creative professionals or people working in business. Since that moment, I've learnt so much from people all over the world that actually working in an institution and you become responsible for directing the big ship if you like. But actually, since April, I think I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people and their stories, their bravery, their ability to make change and their commitment to keep showing up, to try and affect positive change has been really exciting and positive.Steve Rush: That's awesome. Ceri, there's so much in there. And actually, I think one of the things that resonates with me as I was listening to you speak is that you've definitely found your “why” now. You have reconnected through that adversity to really understand your purpose.Ceri Hand: Yes, it's strange, isn’t it? I think it's also about letting go and letting go of what you thought you wanted and letting go of what you thought was the path you should be on is also part of coming to terms with who you really should be. And sometimes we have to have something serious happening in our life to help us wake up and smell the coffee.Steve Rush: You're so right. You're so right. The last bit for those that have listened to this before, they know the drill. We're going to do some time travel with you Ceri. We're going to ask you to go back into bump into your 21-year-old self and you now get a chance to give Ceri some advice. What's your advice to her then?Ceri Hand: Well, I'm very lucky to have had a consistent mentor and friend throughout my life called Paul Henry, who was a senior HR manager in the NHS and he and his wife, Jean were business partners actually, and supported the gallery that I used to run. And it's a real Testament to a deep friendship that remained solid friends today, despite closing that business. But I'd say to myself, get some additional business mentors and coaches and particularly women to help me hone my entrepreneurial spirits and to put my skills and to enable a better relationship to money and income generation. I think a lot of people in the arts have a very complex relationship to money and income generation. And I think if you don't grow up in a wealthy background or environments, that actually the idea that your creativity could help you to have an income generation that helps you to have a better, healthy, happy life is something that's really important.So, I could have learned a lot from different kinds of business mentor, I think. I'd also say I take up yoga and a sport, you love to help with balance and healthy body, healthy mind. I think again, a lot of creative people live in their heads and I certainly did. And I think sometimes I thought that I could think my way out of a problem. And I think that actually now that I do yoga, I go walking and I, I've committed to that, particularly since locked down. I've seen an incredible shift in what I'm able to deliver during the rest of the day. And lastly, I'd say, let yourself be more vulnerable with friends and with colleagues not to suffer in silence, but to let people know how you are and if you need to help.Steve Rush: That's great advice. And I certainly can think about the exercise and yoga. You have to have that outlet that is different to just what goes on inside your head. That balance is really key, isn't it?Ceri Hand: Absolutely, and I find since I've become fitter than actually, I've got better ideas. So, I wish I'd known that a lot younger.Steve Rush: It does definitely improve cognition.Ceri Hand: It does. It does.Steve Rush: Yeah, it does. Doesn't it?Ceri Hand: Simple but effective.Steve Rush: So, Ceri, for those that are listening to you today, thinking how they would like to connect with you, find out more about the work that you do, where is the best place for us to send them?Ceri Hand: Firstly, to the websites, artistmentor.co.uk. I'm also on LinkedIn and Instagram @CeriHand, that C-E-R-I-H-A-N-D and same for Twitter and yeah, I think those are the best, best options right now.Steve Rush: And we'll also put those in the show notes too. So, folks can go straight ahead and click and find you when we're done talking.Ceri Hand: That is brilliant. Thanks so much, Stephen. Thanks so much for the opportunity to chat today. I've really enjoyed it.Steve Rush: Ceri it has been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for taking time out of your schedule to be on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. We wish you every success with Artist Mentor and whatever you do next.Ceri Hand: Thanks so much, Steve. Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker  

Claire Chandler is the president and founder of Talent Boost, a business growth and strategic leadership advisor and also the Author of The Whirlpool Effect. You will learn from Claire in this show:How to create your leadership whirlpoolHow to discover your profitable swaggerWhy your “mission” is so importantHow to spot and fix your “churn symptoms.”Plus lots more hacks! Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Claire and Talent Boost:Claire Chandler WebsiteTwitter https://twitter.com/TalentBoostClaire on LinkedInBook: The Whirlpool Effect Full Transcript Below----more----Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Our special guest on today's show is Claire Chandler. She's the president and founder of Talent Boost. She's an author and business growth and strategic leadership advisor. But before we get a chance to speak with Claire, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: According to a new study, a single eight-minute mindfulness meditation exercise can improve short term visual memory. The findings appear in the journal, psychological reports, mindfulness meditation has been a hot topic in recent years with numbers and numerous studies beginning to explore and demonstrate its various benefits for those who practice it. Author of the study, Robin Kramer, who's a senior lecturer at the University of Lincoln said, “I'd previously been interested in mindfulness and meditation and how it affects time perception. A brief mindfulness exercise led to relative overestimation of time duration. Since my research focus is in face perception, my co-authors and I decided to investigate whether or not mindfulness meditation might actually influence short-term memory for faces given the previous work and the effects that we'd observed”. In the study 90 undergraduate students were randomly assigned to either listen to the beginning of the Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, listen to a guided meditation of mindfulness of body and breath, or to merely to sit quietly and fill their time however they wished. Before and after this eight-minute session, the participants completed a facial recognition task to assess their visual short-term memory. Researchers found that those who listened to the mindfulness meditation exercises tended to improve their visual memory test while those who listened to an audiobook or filled that time, however they wished did not. The inability to avoid visual distractions has been linked to poor short-term memory and mindfulness meditation exercises may help people ignore task, irrelevant information, or reduce their anxiety, but Kramer and their colleagues did not directly test this for their study. They said that although our results demonstrated that mindfulness meditation led to an increase in visual short-term memory for faces, we do not know how this came about. As such the mechanism behind this improvement remains to be identified. The key here for massive leaders is to think about how are we creating that timeout so that we can improve our memory and of course, understanding how we can become more effective as leaders, it's just part of our journey. So, if you're not already practicing meditation, really invite you to take the opportunity to find eight minutes of your day. And who knows? It could improve your short-term visual memory too. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any news insights and information, you'd like our listeners to hear, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Claire Chandler is our special guest on today's show. She is an Architect of Profitable Swagger, founder and president of Talent Boost and an author of The Whirlpool Effect. Claire welcome to the show.Claire Chandler: Thank you, Steve. It's great to be here.Steve Rush: So, Claire, tell us a little bit about how you came to be author and president of Talent Boost?Claire Chandler: Oh goodness. So that's a bit of a long story, but I will give you the short version. So, I spent close to 20 years in Corporate America, after by the way, swearing that I would never, never work in corporate America. So, I quickly learned never to use that word, right? And I kind of advanced through a variety of roles over those close to 20 years. Started out in communications roles and marketing and branding. Took a turn in customer relations for a few years and then spent the last several years of my corporate career in human resources. And it was there that I discovered my passion for all things, talent development, in particular helping leaders and even individual contributors tap into their true potential and kind of helping them to build a path that would advance them to that goal.And so, in 2011, after a bit of a personal health crisis, it really kind of woke me up to, you know, the whole concept of life being too short, and all of that. I decided I was going to throw caution to the wind and leave that relatively safe cocoon of Corporate America and go out on my own. And I didn't really have a plan. I didn't have, you know, a business plan carved out. I didn't have a list of clients to call upon. I just had this burning desire to go out and make my mark in a bigger way. And so, for about two years, I meandered around a little bit and, you know, picked up work and develop relationships with clients that help me to identify what my ultimate niche would be. And so, in 2013, I formed my company Talent Boost where my focus primarily is on helping build better companies from the inside out. But more specifically from the top down in building up better leaders, getting them clearer about their mission, and aligning them around that shared quest.Steve Rush: Got it, and you have this philosophy, don't you? That talent isn't born, it's boosted.Claire Chandler: Yeah.Steve Rush: How does that come about?Claire Chandler: Yeah absolutely, you know, there this general misconception, I think from a lot of leaders that because they do not see themselves as charismatic, you know, and they sort of hold themselves up in comparison to people like, you know, Elon Musk and Steve Jobs and some of these other, you know, real-world stage, large stage leaders. And they say, well, I could never do that because I'm not charismatic, you know, and I'm not inspiring. And, you know, I would counter that and say, everyone has it within them to play a bigger game, you know, to play full out and truly to be a leader that people follow. So, it is part of my core belief that you know, leaders are not born, they're made. And I use the term boosted obviously as an homage of the name of my company, but really because of my core belief that anyone has it within them to become a better leader and the leader that people cannot wait to follow.Steve Rush: That's great, and I observed that on whole, “I can't do this”, is just a mindset which in itself is another learned behaviour that we've had for many, many years, right?Claire Chandler: Absolutely. Absolutely.Steve Rush: Now you call yourself an architect of profitable swagger. I'd love to learn a little bit about that.Claire Chandler: So, you know, this term profitable swagger is one that has a little bit of a story to it. So recently I started going to an acupuncturist, you know, I'm trying to, you know, sort of getaway from any sort of medications unless they're absolutely necessary, right? And so, friends of mine have been recommending, you know, you have to try acupuncture. It's, you know, it's great. It's life-changing, and so I've been going to an acupuncturist for a while now, and I don't know if you're familiar with, you know, the practice of that, but they, you know, they put a whole bunch of different very thin needles into the surface of your skin. It did various sorts of pressure points. And then you basically lay there like a human pin cushion for 20 to 30 minutes.And so, it's very relaxing, it's very peaceful. And, you know, in that sort of silence, you have a chance to, you know, kind of reflect on where you are in the universe, so to speak. And so, what's interesting is that the name of the acupuncturist practice is the Zen Den. And I thought about that and I said, you know, that's such a brilliant marketing name because it's not about what they do. It's about the outcome, right? The feeling that you get, if you give these people your business. And so, I'm laying there like a human pin cushion, and of course, I'm reflecting on business and all of that. And I thought, really, what is that feeling that I get for my clients? And rather than talking about what I do or how I do it, I came upon this phrase, profitable swagger, and I thought, that's it, that's my version of a Zen Den.Steve Rush: I love that story and I guess it's that whole, reflective purpose-driven outcomes that makes ordinary people vs. successful people different. Those people who are really successful, just have that core foundation of purpose, and that feels to me that you found that?Claire Chandler: They do, and I feel like I do. And what's kind of the bigger lesson I think in that story is that I didn't come upon that insight of, you know, what is my purpose-driven outcome for the leaders that I serve until I was in a reflective, almost meditative state, right? And I think that's kind of a key tip for leaders at any level and at any stage of their career. We are so bombarded with busyness, right? If you look at any leader's calendar, the typical leader has a calendar that is chock full of meetings and calls and appointments and conferences, and, you know, all of these things. And there's no breathing room in there. And a leader cannot truly be successful and cannot truly connect with the people that they are trying to get to follow them and cannot truly build and innovate and grow their company. If they don't have these periods of mindful intentional reflection, you know, that's really where the big ideas come from. It's not during the noise, it's during the silence,Steve Rush: Really insightful, like that. So, you have written the book, The Whirlpool Effect. What was the inspiration for the book?Claire Chandler: That's another, a little bit of a story. So, when I was first setting out to write the book at that point, I had been doing a lot of motivational speaking workshops, conferences, and the like. Really directed toward employees, individual contributors, middle managers, et cetera. And the focus of that was to help them reignite their passion for their work, because I have found, and I'm sure you've seen the same. You know, a lot of employees are miserable at work and they've resigned themselves. You know, there is all sorts of jokes and memes and sitcoms around how, you know, people have just accepted that work is something that is drudgery, you know, that they have to do. It's a necessary evil, et cetera. And so, I had been doing a lot of public speaking around, you know, helping people reignite their passion for their job. But what I was finding was, you know, that sort of topic and those sessions were really well received. They were going over like gangbusters, but the problem was the audiences were getting all charged up and re-invigorated, and going back into their workplaces to have more enlightened conversations with their managers about, you know, how they wanted to even just slightly tweak what they were focused on at work so that it was more dialed in to what they were passionate about. And they were actually getting that fire kind of snuffed out because the leaders that they were being sent back to were not as enlightened. And so, it dawned on me, I was focusing on the wrong end of the spectrum. And so, I started to kind of carve out this outline for this book that spoke directly to those leaders at the top, because it's, you know, it's another one of my core beliefs that the biggest impact on a company culture is the behaviour of its leaders. And it has to start from the top, down. So, you know, I started to kind of rough out this outline for this book and, you know, a couple of the shifts in mindset that I feel a lot of leaders have to go through. And I was trying to come up with an analogy for what true leadership looks like. And I had this flashback to my childhood, and so grew up in New Jersey, born and raised here where the summers are very hot, very humid. And it always just sorts of worked out that the most popular kid on our block was the one with the swimming pool in their backyard, right? So, all the neighbourhood kids would congregate there. And invariably, during the course of that hot summer day, one of the kids in the pool would shout whirlpool and everyone immediately understood what that meant.It meant we stopped, whatever else we were doing. We followed each other around in a circle. And after a couple of laps in the pool, we created this whirlpool effect where we could pick up our feet and be swept along with the flow. And I thought of that childhood memory and I said, that's what real leadership looks like. You have a very clear message that your people immediately attach the right meaning to, they see how they can contribute to achieving that outcome. And they enthusiastically and eagerly contribute their, you know, their best skills, their hands, heads, and hearts to achieving that end goal. And so that's where the term, the whirlpool effect came about and really became sort of the guiding focus around a lot of my work with leaders.Steve Rush: I love the metaphor of creating that energy swirl almost, so if you're a great leader, then you run at pace and you've got people running with you, you just create that energy flow that lifts people off their feet almost.Claire Chandler: Yeah, the flow is absolutely the key there.Steve Rush: If you were thinking in leadership space, leadership terms. How would you describe that whirlpool effect from an organizational viewpoint?Claire Chandler: Too many people I think overly simplify what that flow really is all about, and they too easily dismiss that as well. You're talking about employing engagement. While I’m a huge believer in employee engagement and the power of that. The concept of flow goes even farther beyond that, because engagement can often be considered, you know sort of empowering and embedding more of an above and beyond mentality in an individual employee. Whereas flow really implies more of a group contributed collaborative flow. And the outcomes of that are, if you can get all of your employees or at least the majority of your employees around this concept of this, you know, this energetic swirl as you so eloquently kind of described it, what you end up getting is yes, employees who are more productive, but they're more productive and enthusiastically so. Because they see a deeper connection between what they individually bring to the table and how it moves the needle toward the company's mission. So, you see an increased productivity, you see an increase in innovation because people are willingly bringing their better ideas to table. They're creating an environment where there is a higher tolerance for not failure for failure sake, but failing forward, right? Stumbling forward in a way that you learn from, and that you can immediately address, you know, and continue to enhance the organization. And that starts to have outcomes such as profitability, market competitiveness, growth of the organization, a far greater attraction from a brand perspective. So, you're not fighting out in the market for talent where you first have to overcome that they don't have brand recognition, but now you have a reputation out in the market that the right talent wants to come work for you. So, it improves your, you know, your cost of attracting the right talent. Your ability to retain the right talent and mobilize them in the right direction to help you achieve that flow. And then of course, if you do it the right way, and you create this sort of sustained whirlpool effect, it really generates then a company that can be profitable over a sustained period of time.Steve Rush: It's really neat, and I think what we can see happening across the world now is organizations are spending much more focus and time thinking about, “how do they retain and grow and develop their teams”, as we come out of this post-pandemic world, right?Claire Chandler: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think one of the mistakes that companies tend to make, and one of the stumbles that a lot of them are making right now is, you know, when the pandemic really hit and it started to affect every company of every size in every industry, a lot of those companies had to make some very difficult choices about, you know closing down divisions, closing down, you know, entire businesses in some cases. And it impacted, you know, the employment of a great deal with people. And so now some of those companies that are looking to, you know, build back up, they're seeing the candidate market as a buyer’s market. And that's a huge mistake in my opinion, because, you know, just because there are more people available out in the market, does not mean they are the right people to help you build something.And in fact, if you get them now and you think, well, because you know, there's a supply and a demand issue here, and the supply is greater than the demand. I can get them for, you know, a quote-unquote, discounted rate. You're treating those people as a commodity, and what ends up happening is as soon as they're in a position to do so, they're going to jump ship. You can't build a company. If your people are constantly going through a revolving door. So rather than looking at this as a buyer's market, I really encourage companies to look at it as a builder's market. And the key difference there is you're not looking to scoop up available talent, you're looking to intentionally bring on the right talent, who are the people? What are their skills? What is their mindset? You know, what are core? Genuine strengths that are in line with the mission that you are trying to achieve? That's how you build a better company. And that's an opportunity that a lot of these companies are facing right now because they had to prune because they had to cut back when the pandemic was at its height. You now have an opportunity to build back up in a much more strategic way that's aligned with your mission.Steve Rush: So, if I'm a leader here today, and I'm listening to you speak Claire, what would be the first thing that you would encourage me to do to start that whirlpool effect off?Claire Chandler? Absolute, first thing that any leader and any business has to get right, is mission clarity. And I've mentioned the word mission a couple of times, and a lot of people say, oh, we've already got that. You know, we've got that knocked, we've got a mission statement printed on the wall. Mission statements are almost, always not the same as a mission, unless it's a company that is very enlightened and evolves, right? So, a mission statement from my viewpoint is really meant to, it's kind of built the wrong way, right? So, it's built with a lot of flowery corporate language that's outward-facing. A mission though, is this, you know, it's the equivalent of the word whirlpool, right? It is a very simple magnetic. Some would call it sticky, you know, call to arms that everyone in the organization can embrace, can understand, can see their place in and, you know, enthusiastically want to contribute to. So, you know, for any company and any leader, I would say, don't blow past that. Like you either already have it well-established or it's even the right mission. You have to get crystal clear on the mission because it is absolutely foundational to anything else, you're going to do to build a whirlpool effect.Steve Rush: And metaphorically, I guess, is exactly the same principle when you were that kid in your backyard and everybody shouted whirlpool. It’s when everybody can shout the mission statement and have consistency and they all own it. It’s people jump in that metaphorical pool and start the energy swell, right?Claire Chandler: That's right, and started in the right direction, right? There was always a kid growing up who thought he was, you know, a smart Alec and would start to swim in the opposite direction. And you know, one, because it was kind of fun. It's sort of like when you walk up a down escalator, right. And two, you know, in business, that's the other metaphor for what I call churn, right. It's swimming against the tide. It's going against, you know, that energetic swirl where everyone else is moving in the same direction.Steve Rush: And you've got three churn symptoms that you call out in your book, haven't you? So, the first one in the I read was good people walking out the door is an example of that churn system. Tell us a bit about that?Claire Chandler: Yeah, so, you know, there were so many different examples of how churn works against your whirlpool effect in your business. And that, to me is one of the absolute key ones. It is often the most obvious, and it is very keenly felt that we keep losing our best people. We keep losing our best performers, you know, and often leaders make the mistake of concluding, well, we must just not have the right people. So, we have to throw them all out and start over again. And again, it goes back to that concept of, you know, there's a difference between the best talent, the available talent, and the right talent. And you know, when your best performers are walking out the door, it's because they are not seeing a deep connection between what they offer and what your mission is.Steve Rush: That's really neat. And again, just simple, visible that if those people are not in the pool, you're not going to create that whirl.Claire Chandler: That’s right.Steve Rush: The second one you have in there, which I found really quite funny when I read it through, was, they're not saving the drama for their mama.Claire Chandler: Yeah. So, you know, every company knows what this looks like, right? Just about every leader that I have worked with, who has called me in to help them build a better company, you know, says to me, I thought I hired adults. Why do they keep acting like petulant children? Why is there all of this office drama? Why is there so much infighting? Why can't people just behave? And it is such a pervasive infectious in a bad way, a symptom of churn and a symptom of a company that is not fully functioning under the whirlpool effect when you have, and you perpetuate, and here's the key one, you tolerate that kind of behaviour. You know, it really can detract from, you know, the mission you're trying to achieve.Steve Rush: It's pretty infectious, isn't it?Claire Chandler: It's hugely infectious. And unfortunately, that's always the case that the bad behaviour tends to spread more virally than good behaviour.Steve Rush: Yeah and the third churn symptom you have is, and I think for me, it really kind of underpins most of these things around core values, just not “walking the walk”.Claire Chandler: This brings up for me the concept of consistency, right? So those same companies that when you ask them what their mission is, they turn to look for which wall they've got the poster, you know, where their mission statement is printed. These are the same companies that also post right next to the mission statement, their quote, unquote, core values and core values are great. Don't get me wrong, right? It's been said that your mission pushes you, your vision pulls you and your values keep you from veering off the road. But if the values are not actually embedded in the culture, if they are just a bunch of nice words, but they are not lived, what ends up happening is just like this drama, this negative energy that is infectious, you get what you tolerate. And so, part of the reason that your best performers are leaving, is because there is inconsistency in how you are holding people accountable, not just for their performance, but even more importantly for their behaviour.And that goes back to right talent, right? So, you could have, you know, three different people that on paper meet the essential requirements of a job that you're hiring for. But you want the right talent, not the quote, unquote, best performer. You want the person who gets it, right? Who embraces your mission, who can clearly see their place in the pool and can clearly, and enthusiastically contribute to that. And so, when you're in an environment where there's a lot of drama, there's a lot of values violation. Where those core values are not actually lived and people who violate those core values are not immediately addressed. That's how you lose your best performers because they say, you know, I'm not getting rewarded for the contribution I'm making. And the people next to me who are bad actors are not being held accountable. Why would I continue to contribute my full head, hands and heart to achieving this mission when the other people around me don't? and it's tolerated and it's okay that they don't. So those are just three of the examples of churn. And in my experience are the three that most often show up and work against that energetic swirl in the pool.Steve Rush: Collectively, if these three things are present as well, it has the effect of almost pulling the plug on the pool, and all the water leaks out. And you're not left with much else.Claire Chandler: It is extremely difficult, if not impossible for a business to grow, to succeed, and to sustain on a profitable level. If they have any of those three symptoms of churn over a long period of time, let alone if they have all three.Steve Rush: Now we are going to give our listeners, the opportunity to find out how they can get a copy and where they can find some more information in a little while. But before we do that, this part that shows now where I turn the leadership lens to you as a leader in your own, right. So, this is where we're going to explore your kind of leadership experiences and hack into your leadership mind. So, Claire, what would be your top three leadership hacks that you could share with our listeners?Claire Chandler: Hmm. The first one I'm going to go back to is that concept of clarity, right? And again, that sounds really simple. The phrase that I always use with people is keep it stupid, simple, right? There's this, acronym kiss. That is, keep it short and sweet or keep it simple, stupid. My mantra is kept it stupid, simple. And what I mean by that is a mission that is overly wordy, flowery, corporate ease, a type of language is not one that people are going to embrace. The best CEO I've ever worked for was one who came into a company. And he said we are going to be about three things, employees, customers, and efficiency. And that was it, and that was our mission. And that was what we were going to all about in every single employee, without exception could see a connection between what their individual role was, what their natural strengths were and how they could help positively impact at least one, if not three of those pillars of the mission.So, you know, keeping it stupid, simple around that clarity is absolutely my number one leadership hack. I'd say my second one is, you know, it's not enough just to get clarity. You have to have a very deep connection. When you can make a connection for people between the mission you're trying to achieve and how they can individually contribute to that, both through the role that you're asking them to fulfill and the superpowers, if you will, that come naturally to them. You're going to accelerate the performance, the innovation, the market competitiveness, and the growth of that company. So, clarity is foundational, but connection is really where you accelerate growth. And then, you know, I would have to say my third hack is really more of a day today, you know, in my experience, you know, top time management tip for anybody.And it's the concept of touch paper once. So, kind of going back to what I said earlier about how a lot of leaders have very clogged up calendars and they don't have any breathing room in between to get to kind of that, that zen place, that profitable swagger kind of an outcome. Part of it is because we are constantly revisiting the same decisions, the same pile of paperwork, you know, the same sort of to-do list. And so, you know, whether you're talking about the papers on your desk, the decision that is brought to you, you know, even going out in the field. I mean, I learned that mantra from a construction company who said, every time we're hauling dirt off of the site, every time it has to change hands, you know, from one vehicle to the next, it costs me money. So, the fewer times you have to touch the dirt, the more money you save. And so, when you translate that into how you manage your time? How do you manage your to-do list? So, to speak. Your decisions that you have to make both at work and at home when you touch paper once. You get to far more efficiency, and that's where you start to get to even cost-effectiveness.Steve Rush: Three really great hacks. Thank you, Claire. The next part of the show we affectionately called Hack to Attack. So, our listeners will be familiar with this now. This is where we have experienced something in our life. Maybe some adversity hasn't worked out as well, whatever the case may be, but that adversity or the misadventure, the bad results we've used as learning in our life. And it is now a positive force of good, what would be your Hack to Attack?Claire Chandler: Hmm. You know, I'd have to say this happened to me at least twice that I can think of. But more recently I was scheduled to speak at a conference in New Jersey and Atlantic City. And I was preparing to, you know, it was a two-hour workshop and I had this slide deck, already to kind of reinforce my key points, et cetera. And I had it all, you know, ready to go. And I go to save it on my laptop. Cause now I've got a pack and I've got to head off to the conference and my laptop died, not battery dead. The motherboard just completely decided that was the day it was no longer going to work. And of course, because I was under, you know, a deadline, I had not saved the latest version. I had not put it onto a thumb drive yet. I had not printed out my notes. And so, I had, you know, this sort of moments of absolute panic. And I think a lot of leaders, a lot of speakers, a lot of people, in general, have had this moment where they go, what am I without my content? How will I be able to impact and get my message across, you know, without this, what is essentially a prop? And so, I ended up, you know, I couldn't cancel, I thought seriously about canceling. And then I said, that would be ridiculous. So let me, you know, let me go down there and let me kind of do my thing. And what was great about that moment was what I thought was a source of empowerment for me. This presentation deck was actually a crutch that once I lost it, it freed me up to make a much deeper connection with my audience because I wasn't relying on props. I wasn't relying on content. I wasn't relying on pretty graphics or sound effects or bullets on a slide to make my point. And what ended up happening was it was a much more intimate, impactful, effective conversation between me and my audience. And so that was a really big lesson for me, that we get so reliant on other things and other people to help magnifier our impact. When really the best source of that impact is right inside of us.Steve Rush: Great revelation, I guess, as well at the same time. Cause it's probably informed how you do things now, right?Claire Chandler: It very much, very much did. Yeah. Yeah,Steve Rush: Yeah, that's lovely. Thank you. The last bit that we want to explore with you is to give you a chance to have a bit of time travel now. So, you get an opportunity to give Claire some advice when she was 21. What would your advice be to her?Claire Chandler: It's such a great question. You know, I loved being 21. I was still in college at the time. At 21, you had the worlds completely in front of you, you know, and there's this vast unknown, but unlike when you get older, the unknown is exciting. It's not something to be anxious or fearful about. And so, you know, looking back at where I was and who I was back then, I think my advice would be to take more risks. You know, I'm a fairly spontaneous person, but deep down, I'm a pretty conservative person when it comes to risks. But when I looked back at the road, I've traveled since 21, the greatest lessons I've learned, the greatest impact I've had on others. The greatest impact they've had on me was when I kind of threw caution to the wind. You know, it was sort of like the decision to leave corporate and just go out on my own, not really having a plan. It's in those times of taking risks and stretching yourself and jumping into the abyss, not knowing, you know, where or when, or how, or if you're going to land. That the greatest growth and the greatest insights occur. And, you know, I didn't have a clue as to all of that at 21. So that's something that I would absolutely tell my 21-year-old self.Steve Rush: I love that, and the principle of risk-taking of course, we learn as we perhaps get a little bit older. The downside is maybe not as severe as we may have thought to anyone, because we've got a bit more life experience, right?Claire Chandler: Yeah.Steve Rush: Brilliant hacks. Thank you for sharing all of those Claire.Claire Chandler: Absolutely.Steve Rush: Now this is the opportunity for us to help promote what you're doing. Now there's a few things that I wanted to mention. One, you've just written another book, which is available for our listeners to also get a copy of. Where would you best like our listeners to find out a little bit more about Talent Boost, a little bit about the books that you've written?Claire Chandler: Sure, so the best way for your audience to track me down is, I do have a talentboost.net website. They're free to go there and visit, but if you really want to get to know more about me, about my work and either of the books, you can go to clairechandler.net. There is a resources page on that site that has a couple of resources available for download, they're all free. That leaders and employees can contest out, can apply, and immediately get some positive impact in their business. Steve Rush: Brilliant, and what was the inspiration behind the latest book?Claire Chandler: The latest book, which came out earlier this year. I co-authored with a colleague of mine, Ben Baker, and it's called Leading Beyond A Crisis, A Conversation About What's Next. And it was really sparked by this, you know, this global pandemic world that we live in now. And it started out as a series of conversations between Ben and myself that we put out on YouTube and as we looked back at those, you know, we realized there were a lot of lessons for leaders in there about not just managing the crisis, that's right in front of you, but maintaining an eye on the longer term horizon that you're trying to get to. And some ways and some hacks, if you will, for doing that. So, you can find a link to both that book and The Whirlpool Effect on my website. And they were both also available on Amazon.Steve Rush: Super and we'll also make sure that all of those links will be in our show notes.Claire Chandler: Excellent.Steve Rush: Claire, it's just left for me to say, I am super grateful for you taking time out to come and join us on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. You've been an awesome guest and I wish you all the best with whatever happens next for you.Claire Chandler: Thank you.Steve Rush: Thank you Claire.Claire Chandler: Thank you, Steve. Same to you. I appreciate it.Closing  Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker  

Buddy Hobart is the founder and President at Solutions 21; he's an entrepreneur, speaker, and author of  Gen Y Now, Experience Matters, and just launched his latest book, “The Leadership Decade”. You can learn from Buddy:How our biases can prevent great leadershipWhy our new era of leadership may need new thinkingContext and “Why” are a key leadership toolWhy business owners need to shift their mindset from expense to investment.Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.comMusic: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMATranscript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing ServicesFind out more about Buddy:Solutions 21 WebsiteBuddy on LinkedInBook: The Leadership DecadeFull Transcript Below Introduction  Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. Buddy Hobart is the founder and president of Solutions 21. He's our special guest today. He's a consultant and entrepreneur, author of five books, speaker and radio host. But before we get a chance to meet with Buddy, it's The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: Two fifths of executives are citing that soft skills are going to play a key factor in ongoing post pandemic related uncertainty. In some recent research completed by Robert Half a global recruitment and advisory firm, 29% of employees are redesigning their job roles to manage the impacts of COVID-19. They've also seen a significant shift in senior figures who are looking to fast track digital transformation for the rest of this year. While a third are still reprioritizing their e-commerce strategies. In a statement, Robert Half UK’s Managing Director, Matt Western said, “the COVID-19 pandemic has changed the way many of us do business both now and in the future, remote working has enabled talent pools around the world to open up, which for some companies means that existing employees with key skills can be redeployed in the short term to deliver business critical roles.While for others changing of customer demands means up-skill and a reskill has suddenly appeared particularly for digital transformation and e-commerce”. When we consider the term soft skills in the past, this has been linked to things like communication. In my experience, as a consultant and a leadership development coach, there is no such thing as soft skills, hard skills are the things that required that a very challenging through leading and managing, particularly in disruptive times. And if we consider that in some recent research completed by McKinsey's, they suggest that 14% of jobs over the next five years will have either disappeared or be completely redesigned in order to meet the digital environment that we're likely to be working in for the foreseeable future. So how far forward are you thinking as a leader and how much thought are you giving in the roles that you need not just today, but within the next five years, and will that need a redesign? That's been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, information you'd like us to share, please get in touch. Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Buddy Hobart is our special guest on today's show. He's a founder and president at Solutions 21. He's an entrepreneur, speaker and author of his bestselling book Gen Y Now, and Experience Matters. And his latest book, The Leadership Decade has just made Inc 5000. Buddy it is super to on the show.Buddy Hobart: I'm excited about it. Thanks Steve.Steve Rush: So perhaps for the folks that are listening, who haven't had an opportunity to bump into your work yet, tell us a little bit about the backstory as to how you've arrived at doing what you're doing?Buddy Hobart: Well, we started 26 years ago; my background is in sales, so I started right out of University, was Xerox Corporation and started into sales and became a general manager of a business. And then I began to realize that as much as I enjoyed the sales process, I also enjoyed the organizational development and the people development side of things. So, on my 35th birthday, I quit my job, actually after probably the best year I ever had. I quit my job and started Solutions 21 and 26 years later, we're still standing.Steve Rush: That was quite a stark thing to do. Haven't been successful in the world of sales. What was that kind of defining moment?Buddy Hobart: I just thought that the people development side, when I was the sales leader, I saw all these resources going to the sales department. And then when I became the general manager, now I managed everybody. Sales, service, administrators, anybody, and within all sincerity, probably within a week. I was embarrassed with myself about how I had advocated for all of these resources to always be going to sales when there was a hundred other teammates that weren't getting nearly the same kind of attention, the same kind of resources, the same kind of bonuses. And so, we restructured some things and started to develop the business. And while we did grow sales, we tripled the bottom line by simply having people collaborate and communicate and having a more empowered workforce throughout the whole organization. And I realized I really liked that, that was a passion.Steve Rush: So, you took that passion and created Solutions 21. What is the key focus of the work you do with all clients now?Buddy Hobart: Well, it's evolved over the last 26 years, but really for the most part right now we are doing, we still do a tremendous amount of strategic planning. So, we work with mostly small to medium sized firms. Although we've worked with very large organizations around the world and we do strategic planning, helping them to decide what's the game plan, where's the bus headed? How are we going to get there? And so, we do a lot of strategic planning and then we do a tremendous amount of leadership development, both in the C-Suite in next leaders as well. So, who's that next generation of folks? Who are those succession candidates? Who are those people that are going to keep this thing going? And then also supervisory skills. So, you know, the folks out on the shop floor, the folks making things happen, how are they developing their leadership skill sets?Steve Rush: And I guess that’s changed enormously over the last 26 years from where you started out to how things are today, right?Buddy Hobart: Unbelievable, I think that's the focus of this next book is that, you know, the first books we wrote about generational leadership and how it was important for folks of my generation, I don't mean to be ageist at all in these conversations, but I'm a baby boomer. And so, folks from our generation who were the dominant generation for so long, the first books were about us understanding the next generations. But this book really is about 21st century leadership. And why it's critical that we leave 20th century kind of leadership techniques and tactics and ideas behind because frankly we have an entirely new workforceSteve Rush: And that’s always going to be evolving too. Isn't it?Buddy Hobart: I think it is. I mean, you know, the first books we wrote, we talked about how it was unprecedented, that there were four generations of breadwinners in the workforce. And if you stop to think about that, in the history of the world, there had never been four generations of breadwinners in the workforce. I mean, it just never happened. And as you and I are talking here today, there are now five generations of breadwinners in the workforce. So, I mean, until this mid-century, we're going to be in this kind of leap to leadership for this new group of followers.Steve Rush: So, what was it that interest you and intrigued you about how different generations behave and how we need to kind of maybe approach them with subtle nuances and different maybe lenses? What were the things that kind of gave you that energy to get into the research and get into the genre?Buddy Hobart: Well, it probably came from a friend of mine, so the first two books I co-authored with a gentleman named Herb Sendek and Herb is a major college basketball coach here in the United States and coach of the year, in the Atlantic Coast Conference, in the PAC-12 in the Mid-American conference, he's really quieted an established coach. And after the season, one year we were just chatting and he asked me, okay, well, you know what I do, you know, I used to play basketball, you know what I do, but I don't really know what you do. So, tell me about the consulting business. So, I told him about what we do and who we do it for. Clients around the world, and we were chatting and he said, well, you know, you really work across all industries and geographies. He said, but is there anything that you're seeing out there that is kind of universal across all businesses? Now, Steve, remember this is before I did any research or wrote the book or anything. And I said, yeah, I, you know, businesses are having a hard time attracting and retaining young talent. Like they just can't get people to stay. And he said, why do you think that is? And I got up on my baby boomer soap box and I said, all of the prejudice things, all of the myths, I repeated everything. They're disloyal, they're job jumpers. There, you know, they're soft. They don't want to work hard. Like, I was as prejudice to baby boomers I could be. And Steve, he looked at me and he said, well, wait a minute. Like, what ages are we talking about? And again, I hadn't researched anything. And I said, you know, let's call them 25 something. And he said, Buddy I disagree. And I said, how can you disagree? You asked me the question. Like, how can you disagree? He said, Buddy, that's who I've been recruiting my whole career.Steve Rush: Right.Buddy Hobart: And man, it just hit me. And then he looked at me and he said something that I heard years later, actually from a four-star general. And he said, you know, Buddy, by definition leaders have followers. And if you can't adapt your leadership to the followership, you're just not going to be a leader for long. And so, it kind of hit me that I was off and to be completely transparent with you and your listening audience here, that my next thing was okay, open another bottle. And so that the book was born on the second bottle of wine Steve.Steve Rush: And a lot of great writers need that inspiration. And whether it be wine or good conversation, right?Buddy Hobart: The first bottle was a little bit more debate. The second bottle was a little more problem solving.Steve Rush: Unleashing creativity, some would call it even.Buddy Hobart: No doubt.Steve Rush: So, as you were kind of going through that whole exploration, when you were writing Gen Y Now, did you bump into a lot of your own prejudices then also turned into learnings for others?Buddy Hobart: Oh, my Steve. I mean, almost unbelievably so. So, to be again, completely transparent. Herb that evening and through subsequent conversations really did not convert to me. So, as we were writing the book, unbeknownst to him, it was starting to develop into a bit more of a point counterpoint. Where, you know, he would say some positive and strong leadership points and really advocate for these next generations. And then I was taking a bit of a counterpoint approach where I would almost debate him in writing a little bit. And I got the about the fourth or fifth chapter. And anybody that's written knows that once you get that deep into it, you're fairly committed, but I got to the fourth or fifth chapter and had a little bit of a aha moment. I had this kind of road to Damascus conversion as it relates to leadership. And I tore up those first five or six chapters and started all over again.Steve Rush: Yeah, awesome.  Buddy Hobart: What hit me, Steve was one of the biggest things that converted me, where these generations. These newest generations in the workforce, they don't quite look at it the way we did. So, we being a baby boomer, we try to kind of bifurcate our lives. In fact, we created this term. We try to have like a work life and a family life and a social life. And we created this work life balance phrase. And I tease audiences like, how well is that working for you? It just doesn’t. We made a term up because we were so out of balance and these newest generations in my research in the first book, it hit me. They don't look at it that way. They don't try to pretend there's two or three of them. They know there's only one of them and time is life. And they don't try to separate that. They realize when they go to work, they're living, when they come home from work, they're living. The boss they choose to work for is a choice that the projects they work on, those are choices. And we baby boomers and then by extension Gen X, we didn't get that. We try to separate that and that's just not true. There is only one of us and when I saw the wisdom in that thinking, I literally tore up six chapters and start it over.Steve Rush: Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? And you and I have spoken about this before, because we share this similar passion around how the generations more often have different perspectives on the world, and in essence, many conversations I've had with people that says, aren't you just Pidgeon holing people into brackets and giving them labels? And whilst yes, we're definitely generalizing. There is a fundamental shift in thinking that comes with the experiences, the belief systems and the revelations that each of those different generations have had. Right? Buddy Hobart: No doubt about it. And you know, there's 78 million baby boomers in America. You can't put 78 million people in a bucket. You know, there are more millennials in China than there is population of the United States. You can't put 350 million Chinese millennials into one bucket, that's not fair. But to your point, there are certain things that define generations. You know, I'm fascinated at the moment. My mother-in-law's is moved in with us and she's 93. So, she's a member of that greatest generation. And she's a product of the great depression in World War II. And to ignore how that affected her as a young teenager, I think would be folly. Now are all traditionalist the same? No, by no means, but are folks who had those same similar life experiences, did they learn similar things? Absolutely. And I think it's ridiculous that I would try to apply my experience to everybody's experience.Steve Rush: Right and I guess, whatever generation you're in, we always have a perception that it's moving faster, quicker than it ever has before. And a perfect example of that is 500, 600 BC Heraclitus famous Greek Philosopher said the only one thing that is constant in life is change. And here we are two and a half thousand years later, and we still have that lens. What do you think causes that Buddy?Buddy Hobert: Well, a number of things. So, in this latest book, I didn’t quite finish my thoughtwhen I was talking before about what got me interested in this and what really got me interested in this was my own prejudice and realizing the hurdles that I personally had to overcome to understand this. So, the first books were written to help other folks understand who this next generation of the workforce will be. Well, this latest book, The Leadership Decade really is not about millennials or any particular generation because frankly, that ship has sailed, right? I mean the oldest millennial this year is turning 40. So, that ship has sailed. We're not talking about these kids anymore. We're talking about generations and so when I started to write this book, I wanted to answer that exact question you just asked, which is why do we continue to think this way? And so I wrote an entire chapter on kind of the science around this and the biases we bring to it.And the attribution errors that we bring to it. And one of the things in the book I talk about is the fundamental attribution error, which is where we fundamentally attribute to us, to ours, what is good and right? And we fundamentally attribute to the other, since they do it differently than us, we attribute how they do it to be wrong. Where instead of different equals different, we have this mental model of different equals wrong. And so, I think one of the reasons why that quote has been able to survive the way it's been able to survive is that we fight change. We want to attribute the way we do it to being the correct way to do it, versus embracing any amount of difference or change or innovation.Steve Rush: And there's no doubt that we are in an era of incredible change and fast paced challenges that are coming through thick and thin, whatever you are and whatever you do. But what is also sure is what worked in the past from a leadership perspective is not going to be fit for the future. Right?Buddy Hobert: Absolutely and I think that if there is a silver lining to COVID-19 and that certainly remains to be seen, but if there is, I think one of those silver lining, historically is going to be that it forced us into this new Dawn. And you hear a lot of conversation around this inflection point. And even prior to the global pandemic, we had researched the industrial revolutions and came to the conclusion that 2020 was going to be an inflection point and a launch into this next industrial revolution. And if there's a silver lining to COVID-19, and like I said, that remains to be seen. The one silver lining is going to be that it left no doubt that we are in a new century. That 20th century kind of tug of wars on what leadership looked like and what work looks like. Those tug of wars are over, in the 21st century is clearly one. And this inflection point has forced many of us to make very quick, very decisive decisions to be able to change quickly and adapt quickly, versus taking years to figure this out.Steve Rush: Yeah, and for those of us that are in leadership and leadership development and have a responsibility, what an exciting place it is to be, to find new ways of working, to find whatever the new leadership playbook is.Buddy Hobert: There is no doubt. Normally, Steve, when these things happen, they're a little bit more evolutionary, right? Where I kind of visualize this as like a daunting. Where, you know, the sun starts to peak up and gets lighter and lighter and lighter, and it takes some time. So, this was going to happen anyway. The statistics, the numbers don't lie, and so 2021, 2022, 2023, people are going to kind of be able to ease their way into this, where we went from 4.7 million Americans telecommuting in December to 75 million telecommuting in March. Like there was no daunting, this was a spotlight, this was a light switch that was thrown. And it forced us to understand we are in an absolutely new era if that is going to require new leadership skills.Steve Rush: Yeah, so you call this the sweet spot in time, don’t you?Buddy Hobert: I do, I think that small to medium sized businesses, as fortune 500, by the way, but small to medium sized businesses can be more like a speedboat. Like they don't need a lot of ocean to turn. They can make quick decisions, they can adapt, they can adjust. And I think there's a sweet spot in time where talent acquisition and make no mistake. The team with the best talent usually wins and small to medium sized business, have an opportunity to attract and retain talent that in decades past was kind of set aside for fortune 500 or fortune 50. And there is this sweet spot in time where the new generation of workers want to attach their career wagon to a strong leadership works. They want to work for people that are strong leaders. And at a midsize firm, you can walk down the hall and bump into the CEO. You're not really bumping into the CEO of a fortune 50, if you're a recent university graduate, you know, working on some of your first assignments. So, there is this wonderful opportunity right now for mid-market firms.Steve Rush: Yeah, I agree. And within the book, The leadership Decade, you've got some great metaphorical stories in there and some lessons that we can pull on, I thought would be just really neat to kick around a few with our listeners.Buddy Hobert: I would love too.Steve Rush: So, in Gen Y now, you called out the platform is burning; and in this book, you call out another chapter, which is the platform is still burning. Tell us a little bit about that?Buddy Hobert: Well, you know, the first books, Steve, I, you know, everything is a bit of a life lesson, right? So, the first book, while maybe it wasn't a mistake, I feel looking back in the rear-view mirror now, the mistake that I made was trying to kind of quote, unquote, sell the audience that this is what was about to happen and share with them some demographic numbers and share with them some, some data and some facts. And I thought facts would win the day and that leaders would understand this need to adapt, and boy was I wrong. It was not a fact-based situation. Once I started to do this brain research, it's emotional based.And so, when I was pointing out, the platform was burning, what I realized, because we wrote this first book in 2008, and I am quite proud of the fact that going back all of those years, we were advocating for these newest generations because nobody was. They were all negative and negative books towards this generation. So, we were kind of pioneers in the advocacy for developing next generation leaders. And that kind of has helped us a bit, is those pioneers. And what I thought was laying out the data and letting folks know, for example, in the United States that, you know, a baby boomer turns 65, every eight and a half seconds, that every day 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65. That this generation who was the largest generation in the history of the world up to that point was slowly marching to retirement.I thought pointing that out was going to be important and that folks would get it, but they really didn't. And the platform was burning because there was this kind of silver tsunami where we as baby boomers were all marching to retirement without having had a plan, a succession plan in place. And so, I was quoting John Kotter and his change management philosophies, where he said, if the platform is burning and you have no choice except to change or die, that you will change. And so, I thought people understanding those demographics certainties would look to change, but they didn't. They just kind of ignored it and believe that this too shall pass. And so, in the first books, I wanted to point that out. And in this book, what disappointed me in my research was that in many, many ways, especially small to medium sized businesses, they didn't get the demographic shift. And so, while they had all of this time to begin preparing strong succession plans and strong next generations of leaders and strong bench strength, they didn't. And so, the platform is still burning, except now it's burned where it's really close to now destroying many once strong, small to medium sized companies.Steve Rush: And there's so much for each of the generations to learn from this kind of philosophy and thinking too, we've now got Gen Z coming into the workforce as they join. They're never going to have the ability to learn from baby boomers and vice versa. If we don't really grab the opportunity now.Buddy Hobert: There is no doubts know, like I said, a bit of a mistake I made in the first book was I really kind of had that as a one-way street. I was really trying to get the more experienced generations in the workforce to understand the newest generations coming in. And it was really a one-way street. And now this next book that I have, The Leadership Decade is really about this. It's a two-way street. I think Steve you've touched on something really critical here is it is equally important for me as a senior leader or a senior manager or baby boomer. It's equally important for me to understand these newest generations of workers and the newest generation of followers as it is for these newest generation of followers to understand me.Steve Rush: Absolutely.Buddy Hobert: In the first books, I didn't get that Steve. I really had it as a one-way street, but there is no doubt that this next decade is all about the organizations who were able to collaborate across generations and understand this is a two-way street and all generations need to be embraced and deployed in the workforce to be productive.Steve Rush: And very soon as well, you know, we're now seeing people live a lot longer, work a lot longer. There's less pressure on retiring at 60 or 65 or even 70 these days. And before you know it, we'll have generation alpha appearing around the corner.Buddy Hobert: No doubt about it. And in fact, I'm going to go out on a limb, Steve and say like Generation Z. We know kind of when it started, but you really don't know the end of a generation until there's a Seminole event to define the next generation. And I believe COVID-19 is going to be that Seminole event. So, I'm going to say that we won't know this for a few years, but demographers are going to come out and say, this latest generation. The newest generation probably is going to be from 20 form the year 2000 to 2016. And the reason why I say 16 is because now, four-year olds are affected by COVID-19. They're affected by the global pandemic. They have to be home-schooled; they're going to remember this in ways that we can't understand at the moment. So, I'm going to say, Gen Z is going to stop at 2016 and this latest generation is going to start.Steve Rush: Interesting. Buddy Hobert: Think about that. If you're a 50-year-old right now, you will be hiring this sixth generation in 14 years before you retire, you'll be 64. You will be leaving these young folks that are in preschool now. Like it's weird to think that way, but you're going to be hiring kids who were in preschool now who are going to be completely different world views.Steve Rush: Very true, very true. It's that lens that's really important. Isn't it? It's that being thoughtful and aware that creates that future leadership in others?Buddy Hobert: I think so. I think that what Herb said is that a leader's job is to adapt to their followership. And I don't want the listeners here to think at all that, that I think leadership is something that is, I don't know, pliable or malleable, or that there aren't these bedrock principles. There certainly are, you know, honesty, integrity. There are certain bedrock principles, but the way that certain things are communicated and certain things are interpreted change from generation to generation. And one example that we've seen with the current pandemic is working remotely. Is that baby boomers grew up with this concept of being present meant you were a hard worker. So, coming in early, staying late, putting in the time, meant you were a hard worker. Being seen was thought as being productive, and now we have learned that that's not true and frankly never was. And people came to work and they might've stayed 12 hours and didn't do anything, that didn't make them a hard worker.Steve Rush: Very true, really fascinating stuff. In the book Buddy, you talk about the commander’s intent. Tell us what that means?Buddy Hobert: Five years ago, I had the almost unbelievable good fortune and was humbled by being invited to this place called the US Army War College, and the US Army War College takes American and global military leaders. And you need to be a Lieutenant, Colonel or above, and they put them in these cohorts and they ended up getting a master's degree in strategic leadership. And the last week of the program, they take civilians and they've plugged them into these cohorts. And we go to class with these military leaders, and I was able to see kind of how the best of the best work really, really hard at continuing their leadership development. And I met several military leaders. I'm happy and proud and humble to say, some of them have chosen to now come work for Solutions 21. And they taught me this concept of commander's intent, where it's way different than what I had heard in the business space, where we talk about vision and mission. And if I understand the vision, you know, we can move forward. Understanding the strategy and all that, all that's true. But this idea of commander's intent is to understand from the top. So, the CEO from the commander, all the way down to the shop floor, all the way down to the new hire. If we understand what the commander's intent, what his intent is for the vision and what his intent is for this mission, then we will be able to make quicker, better, more solid real time decisions. If we just know that person's intent, because it might not look exactly like it was scripted. But if we know what the intent of the action is, we can implement it effectively. And we've been using this concept now in the private sector and it's working almost unbelievably. So, it's been a tremendous benefit, especially when the pandemic hit for our clients, that whose employees now we're scattered to the four winds, working remotely to understand the intent. I think that's a different way of looking at it, than businesses have really done over the last number of decades.Steve Rush: And it creates empathy for their leaders too. If people understand and have context as to why leaders are behaving in the way that they are, what their intentions and ambitions are, then people might not necessarily like the outcomes, but they will have much more respect and therefore likely to take more action.Buddy Hobert: I think you say something there that's really critical. And that's the word context previous kind of 20th century thought processes and leadership processes really kind of announced decisions without providing context. And the word you just used, I think is critical for us to get is that in the 21st century, we need to also provide that context. And once people understand the context, they can make better quicker and frankly, more productive and profitable decisions.Steve Rush: Yeah, absolutely, hundred percent agree with that. The final thing I wanted to kick around with the Leadership Decade is something in the book that you call the linchpin model of change. And it's based around the kind of whole Gordian Knot story. Tell us a little bit about how that came about?Buddy Hobert: I had a lot of information in the last books about change management, and we started talking about this philosophy in the linchpin model, because what we had seen along the way was people hesitating to adapt their thought process to this next generation. We saw this hesitancy of developing next generation leaders and training them and investing in them. We saw it because they were trying to invent the perfect answer. And they were thinking through the whole concept of, okay, should we do it remotely? Is this online? Like they were trying to create the best answer. And then things got watered down, and we came to this conclusion that this linchpin model of change is really the idea that nee