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22 minutes | Feb 20, 2019
Bioeconomy #3: Plant Breeding for Climate Adaptation
Today I am taking you to the most important room in the world, and we discuss a high priority for climate adaptation: plant breeding. Ok you must have heard of gene banks and more precisely seed vaults. There are more than 1700 in the world. This is where countries and communities store their plant genetic resources for backups, to use as references for further plant breeding. Those are very important rooms. Increasingly important as plant breeding is crucial to adapt to climate change. Another bioeconomy story to dig into! Produced by Camille Duran Made possible by the Nordic Council of Ministers This episode features views from Music credits by Ins. Green White Space Useful links: Svalbard on the world map Exploring the Arctic Global Seed Vault (MOTHERBOARD video) Nordgen’s website The Nordic Council of Ministers Bioeconomy page
26 minutes | Feb 3, 2019
Climate Finance #7 – Investors’ Guidance to 2-Degree Alignment & Just Transition
Produced & hosted by Camille Duran. I am taking you to 2019, roughly 4.51 billions years after the formation of planet Earth. At that point, human beings have been around for some 200,000 years. 2019, it’s almost 4 years after most nations committed to take climate change seriously, and drive a massive transition that would keep them well below 2 degrees of global warming of the climate system. One key question was – how to realign the financial system with that 2-degree scenario – or 1,5 I should say. This is our 7th episode on the subject matter. Thank you to WWF who is making this piece of content possible. We start with a brief overview of what happened over the last year on 2-degree alignment, look at the investor perspective and dive into the latest PRI’s investor guidance on Just Transition, decrypting why investors should care about the social side of ESG governance. This episode features views from: Sebastien Godinot – WWF European Office in Brussels Sagarika Chatterjee – Director of Climate Change at UN Principles for Responsible Investment Simon Messenger – Investor & company engagement at 2-Degree Investing Initiative. Links from the discussion: A good overview of the content EU Sustainable Finance Action Plan Official Document by the EU Status report 2018 of the Financial Stability Board WWF report: Asset owners – Climate Alignment of Public Equity and Corporate Bond Portfolios. Global investors managing trillions in assets call for action on climate change Climate change and the just transition: a guide for investor action. Link to the full WWF panel on investor alignment with the Paris Agreement Music credits license by Ins. Green White Space.
18 minutes | Jan 14, 2019
Bioeconomy #2: Microbes & Local Plant Proteins to Cut on Soy Imports
With a growing population and deteriorating soil health, the quest for a sustainable food and agricultural system becomes vital to our survival on earth. So what can the Bioeconomy do to tackle this issue? Today we look at proteins and see what they can do for us. In particular, how local and sustainable proteins can be used to replace the problematic amounts of soy we import. We focus on Denmark – a country with the most intensive agricultural system in the world – to explore how we can incentivise farmers to grow the right crops, the potential for grass protein, the incredible power of microbes, and how we can reorganise our value chains to maximise resource efficiency. Let’s dive in! Thank you to the Nordic Council of Ministers for making this episode possible. The EU Plant Proteins Strategy Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editor Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space.
9 minutes | Jan 11, 2019
UPDATE 2019 & Launch of Cosmic
UPDATE 2019 & Launch of Cosmic
16 minutes | Nov 21, 2017
Oceans #6: The Future of Plastic Scrap Markets
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Intro Resources China doesn’t want our plastic waste anymore. This sent a shockwave throughout the plastic recycling industry and left all of us wondering: where do we go from here? Will new markets open up, or will we (finally) have to deal with our own problems at home? Will the EU Plastic Strategy save us? In this episode, we discuss the current thinking and upcoming trends on this issue. It’s challenging. We also debrief on the recent live Talk Show in Brussels about European plastics, global markets & China, and set the stage for our next episode where we dive even deeper. • Our Live Talk Show A new dawn – can the EU adapt to global plastic recycling realities? | Website | • EurActiv China is no longer the EU’s plastic dumping ground: What’s next? | Article | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Eleen Murphy [EM]: Are we in China yet? Camille Duran [CD]: Hong Kong actually. EM: Ah okay. Maybe we should remind our listeners how we got here, while the crew throws the anchor? CD: Sure. In episode four and five of this series about ocean plastic, we reviewed what happens to post-consumer plastic, after you put it into the recycling bin. EM: We did some GPS tracking internationally to follow shipments and better understand where – and in what conditions – plastic scraps are taken care of. CD: Not sure you want to know really, but if you do, take it from episode four. EM: We clarified a fundamental idea: The plastic that’s in the ocean comes from the western world too. CD: even if much of it gets into the ocean from just a few asian countries. EM: Yes, a lot of the plastic disposed of in those countries is plastic that we in the west exported there in the first place. CD: Basically the whole plastic scraps market is… EM: A race to the bottom. CD: A race to the bottom. EM: And we left it at? CD: Waking the dragon. EM: Right, it’s getting hot. CD: Is it really? EM: Well if I understand correctly what you told us, China, which imports more than 60% of the world’s plastic scraps – CD: – which we don’t want to deal with at home… EM: – has decided to ban those low-value imports as of January 1st, 2018. In other words very soon. CD: Millions of tons of low-grade plastics are going to be blocked by Chinese authorities starting now, pretty much. EM: Big shake on recycling markets. CD: Big, big shake. EM: Conclusion? CD: Conclusion: you have one more plastic Christmas to go, and then, we have to stop sending our trash plastic to China. Okay? EM: What happens after Christmas? CD: Well, there is New Year’s Eve, and then usually people go back to work? EM: No, I’m talking about plastic… CD: Ah yeah, right… Well that’s what we are going to discuss today. What is the future of plastic scrap markets? EM: And what is the right thing to do! CD: [Laughs] The right thing to do? EM: What?! CD: Do you think people care about what’s the right thing to do? EM: Uh…I think some people, yes! CD: [Laughs more]. Okay, okay, we’ll talk about what’s the right thing to do, in case anyone cares. EM: Our listeners care about the right thing to do, I’m sure! CD: Okay, okay, I know, I know. Actually I should say: if you are not here to do the right thing, better go live on Planet Mars, I think there is an expedition leaving soon. EM: We can get you a ticket. CD: Yes, we’ll pay for it actually. EM: ok, back to the dragon. EUROPE REACTS TO PLASTIC WASTE BAN – NEW MARKETS ON THE HORIZON? 03:28 CD: So you know we had a live talkshow last week in Brussels where we talked about just this. European plastics, global markets & China. EM: Yes! Tell us about it, who was there? CD: A nice mix of people that are dealing with the issue first-hand. It was co-hosted by the Rethink Plastic Alliance, which represents the voice of European NGOs in the plastic debate, and Plastic Recyclers Europe, which represents a large group of European recyclers – actual recyclers, those who operate infrastructure and produce secondary raw materials. EM: Oh so not the brokers who trade materials on global markets? CD: No. They were in the room as well, but yeah, it’s another culture and other business objectives. EM: This is good to clarify actually. The recycler’s objective is to develop domestic capabilities for plastic recycling. The brokers are more interested in finding destination markets for materials, wherever they are… and whatever happens next. CD: Complete different job and mission. EM: Right. CD: We also had representatives from Asia, who were in Brussels that day to highlight the impact of European Plastic on Asian Waste Management, and so they passed by the talk show to share a few points. Froilan Grate, Dharmesh Shah…. You know who else was there? EM: Martin Bourque? CD: Yes, our recycler turned spy, from our previous episode. And his Chinese contact Liwen Chen. She is an activist & researcher, the one who went on site to inspect the plastic final destination that Martin’s GPS tracker revealed. EM: Wow, what a panel! CD: It’s not over. I won’t name them all but worth noticing that a representative from the European Commission was here as well – Anna Ablazevica Policy Officer at the DG GROW – they cover Internal Markets, SMEs, Industry, Entrepreneurship etc. EM: Mmh? CD: And Nadine de Greef from FEAD, which is the federation representing the waste management industry in Europe. So yeah, it was good. EM: Nice! CD: So I am not going to redo the whole talkshow here but try to give you the highlights. EM: Yes and we will post the link to the full briefing. The session was livestreamed and documented, so look for the link in the episode notes. CD: So there was some discussion about why this ban is happening, did we see it coming bla-bla-bla. And some saw it coming from far (a few recyclers for instance), and some didn’t. EM: Like the Commission. CD: Right, and if you don’t see that kind of shake coming, you really can’t adjust in a timely manner. EM: I see. 06:18 CD: Which takes us to the discussion of what is going to happen. EM: What is going to happen if more than 60% of the market for low-grade plastic disappears? CD: Well is it going to disappear? or shift to somewhere else? EM: Oh, you mean that plastic will go to other countries instead? CD: It’s difficult to predict exactly what is going to happen, and in what amounts but let me put it like this: Some are worried this low-grade plastic that has no value what so ever is going to go to other asian countries, where the processing standards are often lower than they are in China. EM: Really? CD: Yes, except for Malaysia maybe. But yeah, that’s a concern. Actually there are many Chinese families that are already moving away to set up shop in bordering countries. And I heard a few times that Africa is going to be the next destination for the trash. Countries like Nigeria seem to be ramping up as a destination for plastic scraps. EM: No… CD: Now let’s be clear, no country can take what China was taking in quantity. Far from it. EM: So… CD: So yes, probably a good part will spread on new markets. EM: And the rest? CD: And the rest is probably going to be dealt with in Europe. EM: What do you mean? CD: [Coughing] Incinerated. EM: Sorry? CD: [Coughing] Burnt. EM: Ohh, so we’re going to burn what we can’t export… CD: Yes, our good friends the cement kilns and waste to energy plants may have a couple of years more work before we can close them down. EM: Well, at least this way we will be breathing our own plastic from the air of our own cities, instead of sending our trash around… CD: Yeah, some of it at least. Martin who runs a recycling program in California says that the price per tonne he has to pay to export it is reaching the price of landfilling it in California. EM: So maybe that’s going to force us to go from “not in my backyard” to “in my backyard?” CD: At least for a part of the stream. EM: Okay so in the next couple of years, some will probably reach new markets, and some will probably be burned here in Europe? CD: Some millions of tonnes, yes. EM: Ouf. Hey, what is the likeliness that other Asian countries will follow the Chinese policy, and ban plastic scrap imports too? CD: It is a possible scenario and some even call it an upcoming trend. Difficult to say at this point, but yeah, it could happen. EM: And so then what? CD: So if all those contries start to refuse all this low grade plastic coming from Europe and the U.S….I let you imagine. EM: We’d finally have to deal with our own sh*t at home! CD: You mean like internalising the impact and cost of our plastic? [Laughs]. EM: It is really that far fetched? I mean, isn’t the EU setting up it’s plastic strategy at the moment? This Chinese ban is a huge opportunity in the long term. Perfect timing for integrating ambitious measures that avoid this low-grade plastic being put on the market in the first place!!! CD: Haha, Eleen, you’re funny. Okay. So you want to talk about the EU Plastic Strategy, right? EM: Yes! EU PLASTIC STRATEGY AND LEGACY BUILDING – WE’RE TIRED OF THE SMALL STUFF 09:47 CD: Sorry to spoil it, but we are not talking about a weapon that could kill a dragon just yet. EM: Tell me more. CD: Let’s bring our container ship back to Europe then. EM: Can we take the Suez canal this time? It’s shorter. CD: Not afraid of pirates? EM: I am one of them, remember? CD: Ah yeah, how do you do it again? EM: Yaarrrrgh! CD: Ah yeah right. Back to Europe then. CD: Ok, so those of you who have been following our series on the Circular Economy know that the European institutions are currently cooking a Circular Economy policy package which is supposed to take us to a resource efficient Europe. EM: Yes, we have seven episodes about this. CD: Now as part of that process, it was announced that the Commission would come up with a Plastic Strategy by the end of the year, to lead the way, bla-bla-bla. EM: And? CD: And it’s a process where industry and brands are perceived as very influential, I should say? EM: Hm, and why do you say that? CD: There was several versions of the draft that were leaked over the last few weeks, and you can see the evolution of the text. EM: Evolution in what direction? CD: Well, there are some measures that are being weakened as time goes by. EM: Measures like what? CD: We are going to talk about it, it’s a bit delicate. But first…But first: Something that struck me many times since I follow this discussion of circular economy, plastics and change in general. EM: Oh no, i know you, you’re warming up for a punchline somewhere… 11:43 CD: Have you ever thought about your legacy, Eleen? EM: I’ve never thought about it ever in my entire life, Camille. CD: Really? How you will be remembered, what trace you left on society, on the planet, what was your impact? EM: Um, maybe I should think more about this, yeah. CD: You’re doing great by the way. EM: Heh. Where do you want to go here? CD: Some people care about their legacy more than others. But politicians and brands do care. Very much. EM: That’s for sure. CD: Brands care because it is directly connected to their equity, to their value on markets and to their survival even. Most politicians care about their legacy too. It is the fuel for a political career. EM: Yes? CD: Ask yourself: who do you remember a few years down the road? EM: Oh no…he’s going to transform, I just know it… Sorry guys, this happens sometimes. CD [Transformed]: Ask yourself: who do you remember a few years down the road? The people who did the small stuff, the shy policies, the soft measures that do not make any waves? The incremental game that no one wins in the end? Or the people and brands who got on their horses, jumping ahead of the curve, those who drive change without fear, the real innovators that make the world measurably better? Which one? EM: The second one…? CD [Transformed]: Which one: The people and brands who are on the defence serving consumers and voters the bullsh*t that everyone can smell from kilometres away? Playing the clock, the mandate, the quarterly results? Or the people and brands who show real passion, conviction and who dare attacking a problem at the source. Even when it’s risky, when it’s early, when others are still talking? Which one? EM: The second one again. The real problem solvers! CD [Transformed]: That’s who you remember. You want to be the first-mover into a future that’s already there. You want to lead and inspire, not cheat and conspire. You want to go beyond intentions. Beyond just a vision. Leave the small stuff to others. You’re here for what really matters. You want to be the one people talk about, or tomorrow you’ll be out. EM: Right! CD [Transformed]: Once and for all. The one people look up to because you have big ba- um… EM: Big ideas!?! 14:44 EM: Wow, are you back? You okay? What was that? CD: Yeah, you get the point. We are tired of the small stuff. EM: I feel you. So that’s your introduction to the EU Plastic Strategy chapter? CD: That’s my introduction to being a human being on Planet Earth. We deal with change everyday. EM: So this applies to the debate on plastics. CD: I think so. And that is what we are going to cover in next episode. What is the small stuff, what is the ambitious stuff we can hope for? Where will we fall, and how do we go from there? EM: What legacy is this Commission going to leave behind? Coming soon on Green Exchange. CD: Share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. We are going to start talking about lifestyle, movie stars, and real solutions to the ocean plastic problem. EM: You know where to find us! CD: We’ll be back soon with more green knowledge, inspiration – and legacy checks. Keep up the good work in the meantime. END
21 minutes | Oct 27, 2017
Oceans #5: Plastic in China: Waking the Dragon
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Picture credit: South China Morning Post. Intro Resources Martin Bourque was suspicious about where the plastic from his recycling facility in California was going. He put a tracking device into a plastic bale and tracked it all the way across the world to a rural recycling facility in China. What did he find there? This is part two of Martin’s story, and it’s an eye-opener. This episode brings up an important point: this is not just an American story – we share some facts from Europe that show we’re in this too. There is way too much plastic being produced that nobody wants. We’re paying to get rid of it, and the price is way too high. • The Observatory of Economic Complexity Scrap Plastic Statistics | Website | • The Guardian Stop exporting plastic waste to China to boost recycling at home, say experts | Article | • Plastic News Europe China plastic scrap ban reactions range from ‘devastating’ to an opportunity | Article | • Global Times Foreign waste import ban leaves Western nations, Chinese manufacturers in a dilemma | Article | • Our Live Talk Show A new dawn – can the EU adapt to global plastic recycling realities? | Case Study | • Plastic China | Website | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Hey Eleen, you got your cup of coffee? Eleen Murphy [EM]: Just tea actually. CD: Oh you don’t drink coffee? EM: No, I don’t like coffee. Strange fact! CD: Alright. So in previous episode we started a story that we did not finish. EM: Yes, because you like cliffhangers! CD: Everyone loves cliffhangers! EM: Hmm, I don’t know. They make me arrrghh! Hulk smash! CD: Woah, okay… EM: I’ve been watching too many Marvel movies, sorry… CD: Okay, just hold on a few more minutes. For those of you joining us just now, you probably want to rewind a little bit to the previous episode. EM: Episode four. CD: So you can fully understand what we’ll talk about today. EM: At this point in the series, we are talking to Martin Bourque who is telling us a story we got in exclusivity. CD: Martin runs a collection service for recyclables in Berkeley California. His facility is sorting the materials collected from residents and sending them to recycling markets. EM: He was worried lately because he didn’t know where his plastic was going to end up. CD: Berkeley residents trust that their plastic is going to be recycled in proper conditions. EM: Which no one is really sure about lately. CD: So he put a GPS tracking device in one plastic bale – you know those big cubes of compressed plastic – to see where it would end up. EM: And here we are, right? CD: Yes pretty much. The shipment had disappeared from the map two weeks ago. EM: The tracking device could not pick up any signal, CD: Or there was a technical problem, battery was dead or device broken, couldn’t really know. 01:30 Martin Bourque [MB]: But suddenly, one day – bingo! It’s in Hong Kong. EM: Hong Kong. CD: Kind of expected, no? But really, looking at recycling markets after the crash in 2015, every thing was possible. But yeah, Hong Kong. MB: And there it is. And clearly at this point it’s picking up a cell signal because it’s got to still be in the shipping container. So it can’t see the sky, it can’t see a satellite, so it’s picking up a cell signal in Hong Kong. [It took] about two weeks to get there. And it sat in that port for a few days, and then it went up the South China sea, into the mainland of China to another port. CD: I pause here just to mention it’s quite common for containers to go through different ports before destination, or to be brokered on the way. That’s why the data from the customs or whatever you can get from harbours is usually not very telling. EM: Well I would disagree with that, you can still draw a few conclusions. CD: You have found something! I know you. EM: Haha..well, let’s just say I put my hand on three years of plastic export data in a European port. CD: Oh yeah? Which one? EM: I don’t really want to tell, I am not sure it’s public information. CD: North or South? EM: Benelux. CD: Okay, there are two main- EM: No, no, no. Stop. I’m not going to tell you. CD: Okay. One port in Benelux. What does it say? EM: It shows a breakdown per type of plastic scrap per destination port, and exact amounts that were shipped each year. CD: And how much? EM: Let’s finish Martin’s story first maybe? CD: Ugh…Eleen! EM: Haha. Hey, now you know how I feel! CD: So where were we? EM: South China sea after the first stop in Hong Kong. CD: Ah yes. MB: And then we could track it and it went to a few other locations: it went to a primary sorting facility, and at this point we’re pretty sure it came out of the sea container. EM: How do they know the bale came out of the container? CD: Well, from the GPS location they can go on Google Maps and see in satellite view what the area looks like… EM: Ah, smart. MB: We could see that there were sea containers, or shipping containers, at this facility. And we could also see from the mapping, from the satellite imagery, that there were bales of plastic in a yard. But then from that place it went to another location- EM: Another location? CD: Yep. MB: – and probably went as open bales or maybe they had even cracked open the bales and started to sort. And it moved from there to a secondary facility where it finally died, and I don’t know if it died because of the battery, or because they dismantled it, or somebody found it and they crushed it – we just don’t know. EM: So at this point we have no tracking device anymore. CD: The device is dead. EM: But? CD: But, luckily it seems like this was the final destination! EM: Tell me more! INFORMAL RECYCLING FACILITIES TAKING OUR PLASTIC WASTE 04:57 MB: So it’s in Southern China, and in a rural community in – not a backyard facility but a pretty informal sector industrial area in a rural community. So there’s lots of little sheds and shacks… CD: So not crazy rural, not crazy industrial, EM: But informal? CD: Informal. EM: And that’s all you can see from the imagery, right? CD: Yes, but it’s not over… MB: So we then connected with some partners through the Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives and a colleague of our s who is a specialist on plastics in China went to visit the facility. But this was months later when she got there. It was very interesting; she got photos of the location and got to talk to people there. EM: Wow… MB: [She] could see, basically, everything was sorted on the ground. They had one washing facility and the water from that went straight into the river – there was no environmental controls on the washing. CD: So just to put things back in perspective: plastic that was put in the recycling bin in the western world, is now on the ground in South China in an informal facility with no environmental control. That’s what we’re trying to prove here. MB: So, they would take a bale of this plastic which probably has maybe seventy thousand pieces of plastic in it. Everything from strawberry containers to take-out containers, to yogurt tubs…all kinds of little things that get in there like caps, lids, forks, spoons, plastic utensils. Different colours – you’d have clear, black, green, yellow…. And each of those have those have to be sorted. So they’re probably sorting into thirty or forty different categories of different resins of plastics that can be put together for recycling. EM: What? Thirty to forty categories? CD: Yes, so those workers have developed skill to recognise what kind of plastic they have in hand, which is quite tricky to be honest. MB: Different colours of plastics, different grades of plastics – whether it’s flexible plastic or really rigid plastic with different kinds of additives in it. And so all that’s being just on the open ground with people squatting on it. Sometimes, to figure out what kind of it is, they’ll burn a little bit of it and smell it, which is really horrific and very toxic. EM: What? CD: Yes you haven’t seen this in the documentaries? EM: No. CD: Smell is a great way to identify plastic, yes you need to burn a little bit of it first but hey – it’s recycling! Actually it reminds me of the old days – I used to do this as well at school, um….not for recycling, but…[laughs]. MB: But that’s the way the categorisation of some of the plastics is done if they can’t figure out what it is by sight, or sometimes by tapping it for the sound it makes. And so they’re touching everything, and it’s all food contaminated, it’s pretty dirty. It’s got a lot of grime on it. EM: Ugh… MB: So that’s being sorted into bags or bigger baskets or buckets, and then those get aggregated into larger bags, gaylords, or some kind of container. Then once they’ve got enough of one kind of material, they’ll put it through a grinder that chops it up into the size of a quarter or maybe half an inch in diameter. CD: That’s about one centimetre. 08:39 MB: And then they put that into their washing tub and they wash it and get it all nice and clean. And then they will dry it. That dry [stuff] is called flake – when it’s all chipped and clean. And that flake would either be sold as is (depending on the kind of plastic), or it would be taken to a nearby facility where they melt that down and extrude it out into long strings – they look like spaghetti noodles. As those cool, they get chopped up into tiny little pellets that are called nurdles. Then that gets put into bags and then those bags are sold. EM: Wait wait wait: from those bags with thirty to forty different categories, to grinding in small one centimetre pieces, to melting, to… CD: …to spaghettis…. EM: That are then chopped into small pellets… MB: …that are called nurdles. Then that gets put into bags and then those bags are sold. And in China, mostly that goes for low-grade domestic manufacturing goods you could think of, like cheap kids toys or hair combs, things like that. Semi-durable plastics that probably end up in the garbage pretty quickly. CD: Yeah basically, since we can swear on the show, I would call this: all the sh*t plastic that is really the last thing you want in your home. EM: Okay…so this is what Martin’s colleague saw when she got there, or? CD: No, so this is how this kind of operation is running when they receive plastic bales. The thing is… MB: She’s not seeing any imported plastic there, she’s not seeing anything from the U.S. So she asks them, “Well, do you get import-grade materials?” And they said, “No, no, we haven’t got that for several months. That market is totally shut down. We wish we could get that stuff, but we can’t get it anymore”. This was a big concern for us, because first of all we had a facility that we felt okay about. It wasn’t great, it wouldn’t be permitted in California. PLASTIC RECYCLING MARKETS – IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL 11:22 CD: So here he is talking about the facility they were working with at the very beginning, before the market crashed. MB: But it at least had some water quality and air quality controls, and decent labour standards. But now we don’t even know where it’s going, because our last tracker made it to China, and now somebody goes to look at the facility, and they say, “Oh, we can’t even buy that stuff anymore”. CD: So that’s one first thing to learn from plastic scrap markets in Asia. They are impossible to control, you think you know where your stuff is going, but it’s changing all the time. EM: I see. MB: And what’s happened in the meantime is while the amount of stuff that we’re collecting keeps going up – every month we get more and more of it – but the price of it keeps going further and further down. We used to get twelve dollars a tonne for it, which is not very much at all. And then we weren’t getting anything for it, we just had to give it away. And now we have to pay to get rid of it. We’re starting to pay almost as much as it costs to send something to the landfill. It takes about sixty dollars a tonne to send garbage to the landfill in this area. CD: And we’ll get back to this debate about shipping it to pseudo-recycling versus landfill, versus incineration, because it deserves its own discussion. EM: Okay. CD: I stay on markets because then they found out their stuff is not even going to China anymore. MB: When we heard that our stuff wasn’t even going to China anymore, that gave us great pause. Because we know that in Southeast Asia there are a lot of countries that don’t even have the level of development and the regulatory context or infrastructure capacity that China has. So when you’re paying to get rid of it, you’re paying somebody to take your scrap, there’s an incredible incentive for them to get paid to take that scrap and then just get rid of it in the cheapest possible way. That sounds to me like a race to the bottom. CD: This is fundamental. You don’t need to be a Harvard economist to understand that if something is put on the market, has no value (actually the contrary), you are paying someone to get rid of it, and this negative value chain is not controlled – then you have a serious problem. EM: And we are talking about millions of tonnes every year. MB: And so that made us even more concerned. So we sent out another tracker. Actually, we sent out a few, but one of them succeeded. 14:04 CD: I stop here. EM: No don’t do that! CD: Not only for the pleasure of the cliffhanger. But also because there are quite a few conclusions to unpack here and I want to make sure we look at this with a constructive mind. First of all – if you are interested in tracking stories: we were invited to host a live talkshow about this in a few days. A few partners coming together, and Martin may even be with us in person to tell us how this ended. This will be in Brussels on November 6th, it’s coming very soon, link in the episode notes. EM: I can’t wait! CD: Next point: imagine a properly funded research program that could deploy these trackers at scale… EM: Yeah…? CD: That’s all, just imagine. EM: Not sure people want to know where their plastic stuff is going…. CD: Something else I wanted to mention at this point: I hear a few sceptical voices: “this is a U.S. story, who is telling me the same may be happening with the European plastic recycling?” EM: In the previous episode we shared some public numbers about all the plastic that is going to Asia. CD: Right. PLASTIC EXPORT TO CHINA – JUST AN AMERICAN PROBLEM? WHAT ABOUT EUROPE? EM: And in case it’s not enough, maybe now is a good moment to share some of the figures I got from this port in Benelux that I can’t name. CD: Please! EM: Well thanks to our in-house spreadsheet consolidation capabilities, we can say that… CD: Drumroll…. EM: Out of all destinations for exported plastic scraps, almost 60% was going to China, CD: Surprise. EM: 18% to Hong Kong. CD: Probably before going somewhere else. EM: Yes. And if you sum China and Hong Kong, it’s more than a quarter million tonnes of plastic. Just for 2016, just from that one port in Benelux. I’ll let you imagine. CD: Hmm. EM: And then smaller percentages go to Vietnam, Malaysia, India…less than 5% each time. CD: So it’s safe to say that our plastic scraps probably receive the same treatment as Martin’s plastic bales. EM: Yes, definitely. Why would it be different? CD: The only thing that matters is what’s in the container. If it’s in a container to Asia first of all it’s that it makes financial sense to send over there. If it’s clean material and is a valuable type of plastic on asian markets, it will probably be recycled in some way. EM: Downcycled, actually. CD: But impossible to know how, where, in what conditions, following what standards. If it’s not that clean and valuable, then first of all you are probably paying to get rid of it rather than selling it for a good price. And secondly, you can imagine what happens to it when it reaches Asian megacities where they won’t know what to do with it. EM: That’s the part you see in documentaries and YouTube videos. CD: So take all that plastic that has no value whatsoever, and that we basically dump on Asian waste markets every year. Add all the low-grade plastic that other western countries send over there. Add up all the post-consumer plastic scraps produced within those asian countries, EM: By their own population, you mean. CD: Right. You get millions and millions of tonnes of plastic every year that recyclers don’t want, that informal waste pickers don’t want and… EM: Hey, wouldn’t that correspond to the millions of tonnes ending up in the ocean every year from those five Asian countries we named in last episode? CD: I feel like Sherlock Holmes. EM: Well, millions of tonnes of worthless plastic dumped on the shore or river sides, and millions of tonnes of worthless plastic enter the ocean every year. CD: There must be a connection? EM: I would think so… CD: Well, some stakeholders do not want to see it. EM: No? CD: Yeah we are going to have to tell the truth… again. EM: Another annoying journalist telling the truth, eh? CD: At this point we just wanted to demonstrate that what you see in the ocean is actually western plastic waste. Not only asian plastic waste. EM: I think this is very clear by now. CD: In the next episode, we are going to keep climbing upstream and start talking about what European industry and policy makers can do right now to face this reality. EM: It’s now clear that this is where actions are needed. CD: Not in pretending we are going to help asian countries fix their problem. EM: It’s also about what’s going on in our continent. 18:52 CD: Eleen, I forgot to tell you one detail. EM: What? CD: It’s a little parameter we should take into account… EM: Come on, tell me. CD: China doesn’t want our plastic anymore. EM: What? CD: Millions of tonnes are going to stay at the Chinese border as of January first 2018. EM: I’m sorry!? CD: Official order. All that trash woke the dragon, as we say. The Government announced late June that they are banning imports for twenty-four categories of materials, including all the plastic crap we have been sending for years. EM: I can’t believe it. CD: This is a huge shake on recycling markets. EM: They are tired of being the trash pile of western countries maybe? CD: Maybe…. So that’s something we are going to talk about in next episode. EM: I bet. CD: And most importantly what we can do about it, or what we should do about it! EM: How do you fight a dragon right? CD: Coming soon on Green Exchange! EM: In the meantime, don’t forget to sign up for our live talk show in Brussels on November 6th. Link in the notes. CD: And you can tell the truth to your neighbour about his yogurt tub floating in a Chinese river, but just make sure he keeps being a good citizen. Separating your waste at home is important. EM: Even if the system is still far from perfect CD: Thanks again to Martin and everyone who is helping us with this series. EM: A lot of research is going on right now CD: We’ll be back soon with more green knowledge, inspiration – and dragon moves. Keep up the good work in the meantime! END
27 minutes | Oct 27, 2017
Oceans #4: Where Our Plastic Goes: GPS Tracking on a Global Scrap Market
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Picture by Ed Dunens. CC/BY. Intro Resources Millions of tonnes of plastic enter our ocean every year. If we’re going to stop this flood, we need to know where the leak is. Is the in countries where huge amounts of plastic enters the sea? Would that explain how a plastic wrapper dropped in a recycling bin in England ended up on a Chinese beach thousands of kilometres away? No, it is more complicated than that – time to cast a wider net. We’re not the only ones looking for answers. In this episode, we share the story of Martin Bourque: the man who put a GPS tracker into his plastic bale in California, and found out the truth about where his plastic was going. • International Solid Waste Association Global recycling markets: plastic waste | Report | • Science Magazine Production, use, and fate of all plastics ever made | Report | • EEA Movements of waste across the EU’s internal and external borders, 2012 | Report | • National Geographic A Whopping 91% of Plastic Isn’t Recycled | Article | • Science Magazine Plastic waste inputs from land into the ocean | Caste Study | • Plastic China | Website | • PRI 5 countries dump more plastic into the oceans than the rest of the world combined | Video | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Hey do you like facts?Eleen Murphy [EM]: I prefer stories. CD: I tell you a short one, it’s the story of human society dropping four hundred kilograms of plastic in the ocean every second. EM: Yes I heard this scary number. From our EU First Vice President at the Ocean conference in Malta, right? CD: Yes. Should we double check his calculation by the way? EM: I don’t think it’s necessary. CD: How many seconds in a year…? EM: Come one…. CD: Help me out! EM: Okay fine…I would say 31,536,000. CD: Okay so he is on twelve million tons a year, which is a bit above what we’ve found out. But yeah, let’s say everyone seems to agree it’s more than eight million tons of plastic a year that end up into the ocean. EM: Who cares about the exact number. It’s millions of tonnes, it’s way too much, let’s fix it! CD: Right. Welcome to our ocean series, a fifteen episode investigation where we tell the truth. EM: That’s your tagline? CD: Uh, a fifteen episode investigation where we tell the truth and talk to interesting people. EM: Wow. I think our listeners are really impressed by now. Why don’t you tell us what’s on the menu for today? CD: In the previous episode, we got to the conclusion that the best thing we can do to solve plastic pollution is working upstream. Making sure no plastic enters the ocean in the first place. EM: Never ever again. CD: So for the rest of the series, I am taking you upstream. Starting now. EM: Okay? CD: On the menu for the upcoming episodes: we’ll look at a map and point fingers; then we’ll realise we’re are pointing fingers in the wrong direction; we’ll follow plastic upstream, all the way up to your kitchen. EM: What? My kitchen? CD: We explain why recycling markets will have a big, big big problem starting January first, 2018. [News Audio Clip]: China has notified the World Trade Organisation that it will ban the import of twenty four different types of garbage. CD: Which means we will all have a big, big problem as well. We discuss how the EU Commission is integrating (or not) this big, big problem into the upcoming Plastic Strategy. But before that, I will tell you a story we are the first ones to break: Martin Bourque [MB]: This is the first public interview, and I figured; a podcast within the industry is a little different than the New York Times [laughs]. 02:47 EM: Oh that’s the story of the recycler who hides GPS tracking devices in his plastic bales. CD: Yes, we should call it a guide actually: how to find the final destination of your plastic bale if you are on a tight budget? EM: I love it. CD: We’ll make a few episodes out of all this. EM: Let’s get started I can’t wait. CD: Where does ocean plastic come from? CHINA, ASIA, EUROPE, USA – WHERE DOES OCEAN PLASTIC COME FROM? CD: So Millions of tonnes of plastic enter the ocean every year. I am sure you will agree that the first logical thing to do is looking at where this is happening? EM: What countries let that plastic fall into the ocean you mean? CD: Yes, and how exactly? Rivers, shore, how the hell did we get to such big numbers? EM: Yeah, it’s not like a small leak into the system. Good place to start! CD: Well… let’s get to the point, no need to drag it out. It seems that 80% of ocean pollution comes from land activity. EM: So the rest comes from maritime activity, CD: Yes, and we’ll get back to this later in the series. Looking at land: China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, and Thailand are the countries where most plastic enters the ocean, accounting for more than 60% of the total. EM: Wow, CD: Now those stats usually don’t include what’s coming from rivers. There is some discussion at the moment about how to account for rivers, we’ll get back to this later on in the series. EM: Okay so the problem mainly comes from South East Asia? CD: Right. That’s what people tend to think “Ocean Plastic? It’s because of the Chinese. At home I separate my plastic waste and then it gets recycled”. EM: Okay, are you saying my plastic doesn’t get recycled? CD: Less than 6% of your plastic gets recycled, Eleen. EM: What? Less than 6% What happens to the rest of it…!?!? CD: Hmm… Let’s take it step by step so we don’t lose anyone. And this way we can also be precise and accurate. EM: Man, I can’t believe it. CD: Let’s break it down. What we can say for sure is that in Europe, roughly 45% of our plastic is exported to Asia. This is public data. Links in the episode notes. The US also exports massive quantities of plastic to Asia, we’ll get back to that. EM: So if most of the ocean plastic comes from China, Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, and Vietnam, and we export millions of tonnes to those countries, then chances are…our plastic ends up in the ocean too? CD: Chances are, as you’re saying. Actually, it’s more than “chances are”. China, for instance, imports at least 55-60% of the rest of the world’s plastic. It’s not like if there was a sign on Chinese beaches and rivers saying, “Asian plastic only, European plastic gets recycled according to human rights and planetary boundaries”. EM: No, I get you. From the point plastic enters those markets in the first place it’s difficult to track. CD: Difficult but not impossible. EM: I see you coming… CD: Yes? EM: Wait before we look at final destinations for our plastic, could you explain how things for post-consumer plastic? For those who may not be aware. CD: Yes sure. EM: Let’s say, all I know is…I buy products at the supermarket, with all their beautiful packaging, and now it’s in my home. CD: Well, all this single-use plastic probably ends up in the bin shortly after… EM: It does… CD: Okay, so let’s take the scenario where your city placed a separate bin for plastic, or a bin for all recyclables. Then you sort your plastic and throw it in there. EM: Right CD: You did the job, you’re a good citizen. And regardless of what happens after and what I am going to say now – you should keep being a good citizen, it really matters even if only 6% gets recycled, tomorrow it may be seven, then eight, etc. EM: Hm yeah? CD: So you’re plastic packaging is in the bin, useless. EM: Useless. CD: It’s at this very moment that the real adventure starts. 07:37 CD: It starts there, in this street container, with all of the other unhappy plastic packaging items EM: Unhappy? CD: Yes, because they have been used for a few seconds only, and we already call them waste. EM: Ah. CD: They get picked up by a truck. This is where they meet a lot of other unhappy friends, unhappy because they too- EM: -have been used a few minutes only. Okay, keep it moving… CD: Ok, they all travel together for a few kilometers to a sorting station, or what we call a MRF: A Municipal Recycling Facility. EM: Ah that’s where all those trucks go. CD: Yes. Trucks enter the yard, get on a huge scale so the station can track how much material is coming in, and then they go drop all the materials in a pile. From there the materials get sorted into different fractions, sometimes using automated systems. Sometimes with human workers that separate by hand the different materials from conveyer belts. EM: Okay… CD: From there plastics are regrouped by types. Typically they are compressed and tied into plastic bales to optimise their handling. You can just imagine big cubes of compressed plastics, of various qualities. From there, each type of plastic is going to take a different road. EM: Where do they go next? CD: Well, it depends on a number of parameters, like where is the sorting station located, the shape of the regional markets for materials, disposal options etc. To make it simple: the plastics that are easily recyclables in Europe will go to a European recycler if it makes economic sense to recycle them. That’s often the case for the PET for instance, which is the plastic type one. EM: Plastic type one? What’s that? CD: If you look under a plastic bottle for instance, there is small triangle printed on the plastic with a number inside it. Number 1 means it is PET – Polyethylene terephthalate. EM: So that’s easily recyclable. CD: Let’s say it’s what has most value on European recycling markets today. Typically water bottles for instance – which by the way do not get recycled into other bottles. But that’s another story. EM: Okay so type one is the most valuable. What happens to the other plastic types? CD: Well there are the ones we don’t really know how to recycle. All the multi-layer packaging for instance, you know? Where plastic is mixed with layers of other materials EM: Right, I hate those. CD: Well now you hate them more, because they cannot really be recycled and the sorting station is either going to send it to a landfill, to an incinerator – not to say a cement kiln – or ship them to Asia. EM: So the plastic that is not recyclable goes to Asia… CD: We are generalising a little bit here. Let’s say it has no value what so ever, so you are going to pay someone to get rid of it. If your local landfill is cheaper than sending it to China, then you will landfill it. If a cement kiln is offering to burn it for fuel and you don’t mind the illegal part, that is what you will do. The thing about shipping it to Asia is that it’s extremely cheap. Ships come from China to deliver goods in Europe or to the U.S., instead of going back to China empty, they fill the containers with plastic scraps and make a business out of it. EM: Some people would call this carbon emission reductions… CD: Right. There is also the plastic that we could technically recycle in Europe if it made economic sense, EM: But it doesn’t, CD: So they are getting the same treatment as the ones that are not recyclable. This is how your little friend the plastic packaging ends up in places where you don’t really want to send it in the first place: a Chinese dump, a landfill, an incinerator, the ocean, a dirty beach somewhere. EM: I don’t know what to say. Is there a positive side to the story? CD: Uhh… no. Basically, the conclusion is that European plastic scraps enter a commodity market. So typically sorting stations and recyclers are in touch with brokers who will coordinate the shipping of those plastic scraps all around the world. EM: Okay, so basically if I run a Municipal Recycling Facility, I’m looking for what is the best value I can get for my plastic bales? CD: Right. EM: And there are brokers specialising in finding destinations for those materials. CD: Right. EM: So the brokers should know where it’s going, no? CD: Sort of. You get a destination port and you don’t know what’s happening next. EM: Damn! CD: This is where Martin comes in. EM: Martin? Oh yeah the man behind the GPS tracker story… 12:49 CD: Yes. [Movie trailer voice] “Coming next, a recycler puts a GPS tracking to find the final destination of the plastic bales he is exporting every week.” EM: Okay, keep it moving! CD: That’s Martin. Just to recap before we switch to spy-mode: We started from the countries that are dropping most plastic into the ocean. We looked at the contribution of European plastics to their recycling markets – if we can call them as such. We now understand the basics of recycling markets in Europe, we are able to track the containers back to the first destination ports. I think that’s not too bad for a start! EM: Yes and we we stuck at the destination port. CD: Until I heard from that man. MB: My name is Martin Bourque, I’m the Executive Director at the Ecology Centre in Berkeley, California. CD: He found a way to track some of his shipments, all the way to their final destination. TRACKING PLASTIC BALES – MARTIN’S STORY 13:43 CD: And in Berkeley they have been recycling since 1973. EM: Wow! CD: Martin and his team are deep into the recycling mindset. He operates an organisation called Ecology Centre, which among other things collect the recyclables in Berkeley. I think I actually met Martin and visited the station in 2013, when I was starting to get interested in materials… EM: Wow you’re an old man! CD: Right. Anyway, I want to thank him because he is not public about this story and he accepted to talk to us and let us publish it. MB: This is the first public interview, and I figured; a podcast within the industry is a little different than the New York Times [laughs]. EM: Yes but New York Times is listening and is going to chase him now! CD: It’s s an exciting story. EM: Let’s get to it. MB: Hey there! CD: [To Martin]: Hey Martin, how are you? MB: I’m good, how’s it going? CD: Yes so first i asked him why he wanted to track his plastic bales, why was he suspicious about their destination? MB: In 2013 we started collecting mixed “recyclable” plastic, and I say recyclable in quotes. At that time we had a pretty clear line of site to a facility in China where our broker out of the port of Oakland was sending the materials. And we had actually worked with partners in China, the Wuhu Ecology Center. And those folks had gone over and inspected the facility in China, and found pretty good labour standards and pretty decent environmental controls on the plastics recycling facility. They were actually making export-grade pellet and flake. CD: But market crashed a couple of years ago, you may remember that? EM: Yes, I was still young but I remember. And? CD: And… MB: We found out that our materials were no longer going to that facility at [indistinct], and that raised a lot of concerns for us. We had recently encountered the filmmaker of Plastic China and seen some pretty horrific footage of the informal sector in China. CD: Plastic China is a film to watch if you are interested in those questions. EM: Link in the episode notes. 15:15 MB: Where materials are being sorted by hand in backyards in pretty horrific conditions. They would pull out whatever was valuable and then the rest of it would just get dumped onto the side of the road or pushed into a canyon. So we were very concerned, as an environmental organisation that pioneered recycling and was the first kerbside recycler in the U.S.. We were very concerned that things we were telling our residents were being recycled, might actually be contributing the problems of ocean pollution and problems with air and water quality – as well as some horrific labour standards. CD: Imagine a world where everyone in waste management cared the way Martin cares? About where materials go I mean! EM: Yeah…it takes courage to face the truth, and not everyone is courageous. CD: This is the least we can say. EM: So, they knew and controlled where their plastic was going, market crashes, big mess, they don’t know anymore? CD: Correct MB: So, when we found that out, we started thinking: how can we find out where our stuff is going? Because, basically, the way it works is that we collect the stuff at the kerb; it goes to our sorting and processing facility and it gets baled up into these big bales that get put into shipping containers. Then, those shipping containers are sold as units and they get brokered by a brokerage firm here in California, and then they get sold to a broker in some other port in Asia. Historically that had been Hong Kong, and from Hong Kong they’d be shipped to the mainland in China. But we couldn’t tell where it was going, we had no way of tracking. Once it left our broker’s line of sight, there’s no chain of custody that made it possible for us to see where it actually ended up. CD: Same problem that everyone has, you don’t know what’s going on beyond the destination port. EM: Tracking is difficult. CD: Difficult, but not impossible. MB: So we started looking around for some kind of GPS tracking device that could locate a bale of this plastic at its final destination. CD: And they finally found one that matched their needs. MB: So we really needed something that had satellite GPS location as well as an international cellular plan so that it could locate itself and send out a signal to be picked up and put on a map. 18:30 CD: So yeah, we won’t get too technical but basically there are two ways you can locate a tracking device: using GPS (the satellite), or using cell phone towers, which the devices connect to when they are in reach and the exact position is triangulated. It’s important for the rest of the story. MB: We were inspired in part by the work of the Basel Action Network, who had recently done a very extensive tracking program with electronic waste. It turns out they found a lot of U.S. electronics recyclers were actually exporting into some pretty bad situations in Asia, which they claimed they weren’t doing. And so that was inspiring to us. We looked at a number of devices. They actually worked with M.I.T. to build their own platform, but we found a private provider out of the San Francisco Bay area called Tracking The World. It’s just a small company that has developed a GPS tracking device – if you remember what a pager looked like, it looks like that. It’s a small black plastic box that’s about two inches, by three inches, by an inch. Inside it has a SIM card and GPS tracking technology. We worked with them to make sure it would only ping, or send out a signal, when it moved, and/or once a day. CD: That’s important. It sends a signal only when it moves and/or once a day. EM: Oh ok, so you can stay tuned to what’s going on. MB: And that way you could really conserve the battery, because we knew we needed at least a couple of months of battery for it to get through the ports and end up at its final destination. CD: Yes, I asked how much they cost. MB: They run about 250 bucks with a three-month plan, and we thought, let’s just try out a few of these. We got some individual donations from our members to support the work- EM: Wait $250 with a three month plan? CD: Yeah for the communications, like a SIM card. That’s pretty affordable no? EM: Yeah! I was expecting a bigger investment. CD: The thing is you probably need a few of them because it takes some trial and error. 20:45 MB: We tried a few different approaches. We discovered that getting them through the processing facility basically destroyed them. So we had to attach them to the bales after they’d been processed and baled – we couldn’t threw them in through the processing bin and expect it to end up a bale and still be alive. CD: Those good learning lessons for our listeners who I am sure are going to try this at home. EM: Disclaimer message? CD: Please try this at home. EM: Or at your recycling facility! CD: Here is how exactly: EM: All you need is a plastic bail. MB: The bales are pretty dense, so the plastics are crushed really tightly and then they’ve got baling around them. These are big blocks of compressed plastic. They’re about four or five feet long, by three feet wide and four feet high, something like that. So we had to actually wedge them into the side of the bale. I thought initially we might need some kind of adhesive to hold them in there, but just the pressure of the bale, if you can get it wedged in there, they’re not coming out. We also wanted them near the surface of the bale so that they could get a better GPS or cellular signal. Some of the limitations with the technology is that to get a satellite GPS location which is really accurate, the device needs to see the sky. CD: It’s a bit like your children, they need to see the sky sometimes. EM: Yes it’s a bit like children, if they don’t see the sky they start to triangulate. MB: They can’t be under a roof, or inside one of the shipping containers. So they’re not very accurate unless they’re seeing the sky directly. And if they don’t see the sky and can’t see the satellite, then they start trying to figure out where they are by triangulating off of cellular towers. So if there are cellular towers nearby and they get a cell signal, they get a pretty close reading in terms of their location, but they could be as much as a couple of hundred yards off when triangulating off of cell towers. And if the cell towers are further away, it gets less and less accurate. But, once they’re in the sea container, they lose the satellite and so then we’re locating off of cell towers, and it gets a little less accurate. EM: I feel like in a spy movie. CD: Yes that’s exactly what I told him… MB: Yeah, it felt pretty stealthy, like, okay we’re actually going to see where these things go. And more than feeling like a spy, there was a real curiosity to where is this actually going to end up in the world. Because we just see it for that minute between the recycling bin and when we send it to the brokerage firm. And then it’s off to the port of Oakland and we don’t see it anymore. So, to be able to see a longer life of where this stuff actually goes was pretty exciting. I know it sounds a little nerdy, but… 23:50 CD: How exciting is your morning coffee now right? you have this tracking device somewhere in the world, opening the computer to see where it is. EM: I want one! MB: At first I didn’t want to share it too widely. So it was just me and a couple of people. We had a link from the provider that took us to a map, like a Google-style map on the desktop. And I could see it sitting there in our recycling yard, and it would ping once a day and get a little signal. I could download a table and it would show me the GPS locations and the times that it located. And for about a week I’m just sitting there watching it sit in our yard, and then when the shipment was going out and suddenly it starts pinging in a storage yard near the Port of Oakland, getting ready to get on a ship. It’s sitting there for a good week or two weeks, and I’m checking it every day – when I have a little break I take a look and see. And then, one day it’s just gone. And I’m like, okay that either means that it’s broken and it’s no longer working – and we had a number of them that failed for a number of different reasons. So maybe it just stopped working, maybe the battery went dead, maybe it got moved around and crushed – or it’s on a sea container on a ship, out in the middle of the pacific. I just didn’t know, so I keep checking everyday, and nothing new, nothing new, nothing new. Frankly, we didn’t know where it was going. We suspected it would be going back through Hong Kong and into China, but it could have gone to India for all we knew, you know? We had no idea. And, frankly, we didn’t know how long it took a ship to get across the pacific ocean, or if it made multiple stops, or if it would stop in, who knows, Honolulu and get put on a different ship. We just didn’t have any idea. CD: So at this point, Martin doesn’t know if the tracker is dead, broken, without battery. Or somewhere out in the ocean where the satellite or cell towers cannot get the signal…. EM: …And…but? CD: but suddenly MB: CD: But suddenly I think it’s time to close this episode. EM: Noooooo! CD: We’ll find out soon, Eleen. EM: This is mean! CD: This is fun! And remember we said we would try to keep our episodes short. EM: Okay, okay…. CD: If you have any questions, if you need tips for your own GPS tracking experiment, please don’t hesitate to get in touch, EM: email@example.com CD: We’ll be back very soon with more green knowledge, inspiration & GPS tracking. Keep up the good work in the meantime. END
22 minutes | Oct 10, 2017
Oceans #3: Can We Really Clean Up Ocean Plastic? (Mythbusting)
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Picture credit: Plastic Oceans Foundation Intro Resources One main reason cleaning up the ocean is not going to work: so many of us underestimate the wrath of the sea. The many technical challenges are so much bigger than we realise, and while we all desperately wish the magic-bullet solutions will work…the cold hard facts tell a different story. That’s what oceanographer Kim Martini tells us in this episode. She’s one of the only people to do a scientific peer review of the Ocean Cleanup Project’s feasibility study. The results are very interesting. The main questions we ask her: what exactly are the challenges we’re facing? And is there any hope for cleaning up the ocean, or will we have to live with this plastic soup forever? • Deep Sea News [Blog] Dr. Kim Martini | Website | • Deep Sea News The Ocean Cleanup, Part 2: Technical review of the feasibility study | Website | • National Geographic The Baltimore Trash Wheel | Case Study | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Eleen are you ready I am launching the mythbusting machine.Eleen Murphy [EM]: Sure, go for it! CD: It may get loud. EM: Okay. [Voicemail]: Hello my name is Aimee and I would like to know Can we really cleanup the ocean? CD: Hi everyone! Today we are going to answer one important question: can we really cleanup the ocean? Is this really possible? Or how much of it can we clean? EM: Yes! Well done on the song adaptation by the way! I didn’t know you’re able to sing. CD: Really? Can’t you hear how much I fake it? Studio tricks baby that’s all! EM: Well,it works! CD: Good! EM: Camille has been squeezing researcher Kim Martini – or her knowledge, I should say. CD: Haha. EM: We introduced her in the last episode. CD: I have been challenging her, like everyone who comes on the show. EM: You’re the man for that alright! CD: We fight hard to bring you the truth, beloved listeners. EM: How’s about we jump right in? CD: Let’s do it. CD: Can we really cleanup the ocean? We said it’s more of a good-to-know question, really. For those who are just joining us: we believe the real answers to the ocean plastic problem are upstream but yes, we should also consider the feasibility of cleaning up what we can so here we are. EM: You have a disclaimer message? CD: I do. The following views can sound a little bit critical. I want to say that we praise the existing efforts of everyone involved in someway in environmental actions. It is important to mobilise engineers, innovators, entrepreneurs and anyone who is interested in giving a hand to find solutions and cleanup what we can of ocean plastic. EM: Those efforts are very important, keep it going. CD: What we are challenging with this myth busting episode is the fact that ocean cleanup has been occupying a large majority of the mainstream media space – mainly via the work of Boyan Slat and the Ocean Cleanup Project. This is sometimes steering the debate in the wrong direction, even in most specialised circles. Together we are going to find out what is possible today – and what we can expect for the years to come. Spoiler alert! You are probably going to get disappointed. EM: But! that’ll be productive for the investigation as a whole. CD: Actually, I’ll go ahead and save your time right now, because you’re busy: if you just want to know if we can cleanup the ocean, the answer is much closer to the no than to the yes – you guessed it. And things are not likely to change anytime soon. Why? because it’s not only a technology issue. EM: What a spoiler you are Camille. CD: It’s more productive, that’s all. EM: Now, if you want to understand the nuances and dig into this with us… stick around! CD: If by now you know enough, just move on, we won’t get offended, I promise. EM: So, why did you pick Kim Martini. Who is she? Why should we trust her? CD: Ok, good question. First because she is an oceanographer. Kim Martini [KM]: How do I introduce myself? Well, first: hi my name is Dr. Kim Martini. I’m an oceanographer, which means I study the physics of the ocean, and to do that I’ve spent a lot of time deploying instruments in the ocean. Right now I work with how to get the best data from these instruments. But on my side-time, I like to tell people about the ocean, so I do a lot of outreach through blogging or Twitter. CD: She blogs at Deep Sea News which is a nice channel if you want to follow ocean topics. KM: I would say that we’re not your normal ocean bloggers, because we like to use popular culture and humour, and cold hard scientific facts to tell people what’s going on in the ocean. 04:01 CD: Cold hard scientific facts, humor and pop culture, written by scientists. That sounds like a blog you’d want to read right? EM: And people I’d like to hang with. CD: Worth mentioning: she really wants to find cleanup solutions. And that’s an important qualifier for this interview. She wants a clean ocean tomorrow. Like you and me. KM: I wish. I want to in my heart. I’m on the page with them – I want to see a solution. I want to see something that works. I’m horrified! When I go to the beach, when I go out and there’s stuff everywhere. EM: Fair enough. She’s not the naysayer we sometimes see in those debates. CD: No, she hates the idea of being part of that myth busting, but she felt it’s her duty to tell the truth. EM: And she studied the Ocean Cleanup Project specifically right? CD: Yes, in great detail. Because when the Ocean Cleanup Project went viral and Boyan Slat finally released a comprehensive feasibility study back in 2014 – hundreds of pages of technical stuff no YouTube viewer would understand – she was asked with her colleague to do a scientific peer review of the study, common practice in the scientific community. But no one else was up for it. So she took care of the engineering part, and her colleague Dr. Miriam Goldstein took care of the biology part. EM: Okay. CD: And you know, before we jump into the technicalities, I want to look at this from a change management perspective because there is something that comes back all the time: We, human beings, have a big talent for oversimplification. When I look at a question – such as can we clean up the ocean – I want to hear yes or no. I don’t have the time nor the interest to understand the nuances. I just love the story of this young champion that seems to have a plan and that’s what I feel like standing behind. And this is a classic case with change management stories. Now the reality is ,more complicated than this and we need people to do the homework and look into the details of this (that’s number one). And number two: we need to start getting used to nuances, conditions, variables – and looking at the big picture. EM: People like Kim help us understand the nuances. CD: Exactly. EM: So thank you all, people like Kim. CLEANING THE OCEAN: ENGINEERING & LOGISTICAL CHALLENGES 06:42 EM: So what did you cover first CD: We started talking about the disproportionate visibility of the Ocean Cleanup Project because it’s probably the most prominent solution to date. It now received millions of dollars of funding and I wanted to ask Kim what we can hope from it. EM: Yes actually our colleague Sorenza found out that if you go on YouTube and go through the first twenty videos for the search “ocean pollution”, 50% of the views go to the Ocean Cleanup Project. CD: I am not surprised, the way people responded to Boyan’s narrative is a great illustration of this oversimplification syndrome media audiences are victim of. Here is how Kim puts it: KM: It’s so compelling because it’s such a simple narrative. “I will use the ocean to clean itself”. It’s a problem because now he’s framing it as: all we have to do is throw a lot of money at the problem, and it’ll solve itself. You don’t have to do anything to change, you’re not personally responsible. It’s so easy. He just frames it as this very easy problem that is solvable with engineering, and I would disagree with that. CD: General rule of thumb for you busy people with no time to check the feasibility of a solution: when it’s too good to be true…you probably want to keep reservations. EM: Or call the myth busters! CD: Right. EM: Can we get into the engineering challenges now? CD: Sure, that’s Kim’s expertise. Do we have the technology? And will we have it in ten years, fifteen years, etc? I always thought, there must be something usable in the work of the Ocean Cleanup Project, behind all the glitter, there might be stuff we can actually apply today or short-term. CD [to Kim]: Can you note any substantial progress in the previous years? What is the pace of innovation, and is this going to get somewhere? KM: I think they’re doing a good effort of trying to address the engineering challenges. I think they’re finally trying to address the bio-fouling challenges. So it seems like they’re moving in the right direction. Those were the two major challenges that we outlined in our review which we wrote four years ago. But I would also say that in our review as well, one of the main points we said is that making deep ocean moorings is really hard. CD: I pause here for a second. If like me you were wondering what is a deep ocean mooring – it’s like a collection of devices, connected to a wire and anchored on the seafloor. Deep. Really deep in the ocean. KM: Just to even engineer the structure; so they were going to make the world’s largest ocean structure, to pick up trash. And we said that that’s really hard. That’s a hard technical challenge. We’ve never done that from an engineering standpoint as humans, we’ve never made something that large. And it was really interesting because we said that moorings are hard four years ago – and it was just this past spring when the Ocean Cleanup Project had a press release that said “Oh yeah, moorings are really hard! We’re going to do this other floating idea”. And I thought, well we already said that four years ago. So it’s like, okay, they are moving forward, but how far forward have they moved on if we said that four years ago? And I’d also like to point out that having freely floating structures that are freely drafting is another huge technological challenge that has its own incredibly complicated problems. CD [to Kim]: It looks easy on the slide-show. KM: Oh, it does look very easy on the slide-show! But it’s not. And I think they really over-simplified the engineering that’s going to be involved in that. They simplify everything. And I mean, that’s what you have to do – if you want to tell somebody about what you’re trying to do and it’s highly technical, you do have to simplify it. You have to make it easy to understand, but you also have to be realistic about the challenges and I don’t think they’re doing this. Because it looks like they have a lot of really technical people, but the ocean is a really mean place. It is really hard on your instruments, it is really hard on anything you put in there. And I think sometimes they really underestimate the wrath of the sea. 11:20 CD: So Eleen, here is the first punchline: there are real engineering challenges that tend to be greatly underestimated, and it sounds like we are really far from a solution someone like Kim can really believe in. EM: How about solutions other than the Ocean Cleanup Project one? CD: Good question. I asked her what’s the potential of any solution out there? KM: Oh boy. So it’s a really hard problem… EM: I like how she calls you boy when she says, “Oh boy”. CD: Oh yeah? here it is one more time. KM: Oh boy. So it’s a really hard problem, okay? There’s a lot of plastic, it’s all over the place and at different levels, but it’s also really scattered. So how are you going to do something that’s efficient enough to pick up a lot of plastic, but also pick up a lot of useable plastic and not pick up everything else too. So that’s something people have to think about. You’re scooping up stuff that’s been in the ocean, but you’re not just picking up plastic. If we use a fishing term – there’s by-catch. CD: That is the problem all technical solutions are confronted with. By-catch. EM: Yes because it seems plastic is really everywhere, in the arctic, in the deep oceans, at the surface, everywhere really. CD: So punchline number two: you can’t really pick up plastic without picking up all the other stuff as well, it’s a real fish & plastic soup out there. EM: Mmmh. But wait, I can go with the idea that we can’t pick up everything, but at least all the big pieces that lie in the patches? That stuff Charles Moore is standing on in his famous videos? CD: That is exactly what I asked. That stuff should be easy to remove. KM: I’m not sure that we can. In my limited view – so I wouldn’t say I have a hand on every single type of technology that’s out there – but I really don’t see a good feasible way of going out and picking that stuff up that’s going to work. There’s just so much trash in the ocean! CD: Something we forget is that the Great Pacific Garbage patch for instance is about the size of Texas. EM: Actually I’m looking at estimates here and you’re talking about the low range estimate, some estimate fifteen million square kilometers – and that’s around 8% of the ocean surface. CD: You get the idea. Still I didn’t want to take no for an answer I asked her about the different systems out there, there might me something promising… We reviewed together the main ideas that have been put forward. TRASH WHEELS & LOCAL CONTEXTS – SOLUTIONS THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK 13:56 KM: For me the ones that I think are the most successful so far are, like, the Baltimore Trash Wheel. CD: So the Baltimore Trash Wheel is a system that is placed at a river catchment, powered by the river current or solar power, has a big wheel like on the old boats or mills, and it actions a rail that brings up the trash that is floating around, dropping it into a container. They picked over half a million tonnes of trash over the last three years – including nine million cigarette buts, and half a million polystyrene containers. EM: Nice KM: And it does a really good job! CD: But … EM: Oh no there is a but? KM: But, again, this is a really great solution but it’s only limited to places where you have river inputs, and places where you can actually put it. You’re not going to be able to this in the middle of a shipping channel. So, how are you going to block off the flow? Are you going to do it in a small area? So that one’s limited as well. CD: It’s limited. But it’s great, that’s where efforts should go towards, developing a multiplicity of local solutions that work for a specific context. EM: I see. And that’s often on preventing more plastic from getting in the ocean in the first place. CD: That links to our next punchline: there is no silver bullet. Like with everything, there are so many different situations that the engineering challenges are humongous. You can develop a solution that is tailored to a specific situation like they did in Baltimore but the claim that we can clean up the ocean is just too big. EM: That makes sense. CD: In case you are still not convinced, there is another argument that she brought up: collateral damage. By-catch is one of them, as we discussed. But also: KM: …and because you’re using a net you’re going to catch other fish, or harming things. So there’s always that possibility. I do think that’s a good way to do it, but if you’re going to do that on a large scale, that has it’s challenges too. And also you’re going to use a lot of gas chugging around in two boats, and so you have this other collateral damage, right? So you really have to think of what the cost-to-benefit ratio of all this is. EM: Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that, all the pollution from such large scale operations. We just have no idea of the size of the problem. CD: And the financial cost! The capital expenditures from all this. That’s an important point. First – is there any money for this? And if yes…who is going to pay for this? The plastic producers? They don’t even want to hear there is a problem at all. The business model is very unclear, because a very large majority of this plastic – even if we could collect it – has no value what so ever, which is why it ended up here in the first place. And now it’s degraded and there is a mussel on it. Nothing you can do with that. So that’s another nail in the coffin for the cleanup narrative. PREVENTING THE PLASTIC LEAK: UPSTREAM SOLUTIONS AND CELEBRATING SMALL VICTORIES 17:07 CD: If there are millions and millions of dollars available right now to solve the ocean plastic problem, it should go into preventing the leak. EM: Yeah, making sure nothing else ever gets in the ocean starting now. CD: Because right now we are talking about Millions of tonnes every year. EM: At least eight million tonnes a year actually, that we will probably never be able to catch back. CD: That’s a good way to put it. And here is the big idea, the more upstream we put our efforts, the more impact, and the cheaper it is to solve in the end. EM: Upstream. And that’s what we are going to cover in the rest of the series. CD: But you know I don’t like to give up, I hate to feel we can’t do anything. EM: I feel you. CD: I thought that I would ask Kim a different question then. Instead of “can we clean up the ocean”, I asked her how much she believes in a workable solution for reversing the trend – technically reversing the trend. I asked her to score from one to ten – ten being the strongest chances. You know what she told me? EM: Oh boy? CD: Exactly: KM: Oh boy. I’m going to put on my cranky pants for this one. I don’t see a lot of this. I see that we can make a lot of change on how much is going in, so I would say a four. But I would say that what has gone in and what is going in there is so high…and even the future estimates that this might be doubling in ten years are so high that I don’t see how we’re going to get rid of this problem – unless we’re cutting it off from getting into the ocean. Especially since we can’t even get any of it out yet. EM: Okay, okay. Can we end on a positive note please? CD: Yeah, let’s try. You are making me think of another point she made, just looking about the efforts to date. KM: To be fair, these are all projects that have taken a lot of prototyping. They’ve taken a lot of work and iteration, and that’s where we’re at. We’re at the small-scale stuff. We do need bigger scale stuff, but we have to work up from these small victories too. And so I think the Ocean Cleanup Project should think about these type of models in the prototyping they’ve done, because the reality is that the Ocean Cleanup are five years in, and they’ve not removed one piece of trash from the ocean yet. They are twenty million dollars in. The Baltimore Trash Wheel has removed tonnes and tonnes of garbage and they’re only eight hundred thousand dollars in, so a fraction of the cost. And so, that’s a solution that’s working at removing plastic from the ocean. The Ocean Cleanup Project? They’re not yet. EM: Working from the small victories. CD: Local specific solutions… EM: …to prevent plastic from leaking into the ocean in the first place. I see. CD: You got it! 20:22 CD: Conclusion: EM: Can we clean up the ocean? Not really. What’s already there is there and it’s going to be a sad reminder of how pathetic we are. CD: Boyan Slat cannot save us. Although he is a remarkable entrepreneur with a lot of talent, which we hope he starts deploying towards preventing the eight million tonnes a year that reach the ocean in the first place. EM: Basically, if you want to go to a beach cleanup on a weekend, or develop a local solution for your city, a student project, that kinda thing – you should. You really should. It’s important. CD: But technological solutions should really focus on preventing plastic pollution not cleaning it. EM: For the rest, all the money, media attention and human efforts are better off focusing on upstream solutions. CD: The people who can really save us work in industry, product and service design, and last but not least policy makers can save us. They need to create the environment for the world to take another direction…but that’s for another day… EM: Myth number one busted! CD: We’ll be back soon with more green knowledge, inspiration and entertainment- EM: And less plastic pollution! CD: Keep up the good work in the meantime. END
19 minutes | Oct 10, 2017
Oceans #2: The Man Who Started Talking About Plastic Pollution
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Picture source: The Telegraph Intro Resources The story of ocean plastic, at least the one we talk about now, began 20 years ago. Before then, nobody was making noise about how our oceans were filling up with with this everlasting nuisance. One man changed this when he went onstage at – and showed the world what damage we were causing. In this episode, we talk to the man himself, captain Charles Moore. And we ask: just how urgent is ocean plastic pollution? Is it as important as climate change? • United Nations Plastic Ocean | Video | • National Geographic Gyre: Creating Art From a Plastic Ocean | Picture | • Think Progress Zooplankton Are Eating Plastic, And That’s Bad News For Ocean Life | Website | • Business Insider Man-made debris putting marine animals at extinction risk | Website | • TEDx Captain Charles Moore – Ten Years Later, the Gyre is All Around Us | Website | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Ok Eleen are you ready? Eleen Murphy [EM]: I am! CD: This is real now, we said we would start this ocean series with a theme many human beings are talking about right now. EM: Yes. CD: It’s something we humans are ingesting on a daily basis, without even knowing it. EM: humans & animals actually CD: Right. Not only do we touch it and eat it, we also put it on our body all the time, it’s in our clothes, in our cosmetics… EM: It’s everywhere in our lives CD: And it’s also everywhere in the ocean. EM: Plastic CD: Plastic. Ocean plastic, Eleen. We promised we would tell crazy stories, we would investigate, infiltrate, hide microphones sometimes even – all this with the mission to bring clarity. Clarity on what needs to happen right now to solve this planetary emergency. And Here we are, chapter one. EM: Chapter one, baby! CD: You know, I feel we should have picked a subject a little bit easier to deal with to be frank. EM: Hm? CD: A subject like.. Ocean Plankton for instance. EM: Right….Not sure it would get the same interest… CD: Hi everyone and welcome to episode thirty-three of our series on Ocean Plankton. I am your host Jimmy Shrimp- EM: Okay okay, let’s get started now, we have a lot on our plate. CD: Right, Sorry. Yes, so some of you have asked how many episodes we are going to dedicate to ocean plastic and actually we’re not sure. We do not know. It could easily go up to 10 or 15 episodes. Who knows how far the wind of change will take us. EM: Yes, because we have a lot of stories already! CD: Like the story of how plastic in the sand makes baby turtles turn from female to male. EM: What? really? haven’t heard that one. CD: Yes true story, or the story of the hidden GPS tracking device following a plastic container across continents all the way to… A place you will uncover. EM: Nooo CD: Or the dark side of something we cannot talk about yet otherwise they are going to cancel our upcoming meetings. EM: Okay, okay, the point is: you’d better push that subscribe button. CD: Yes, open your favourite podcast app, search ‘Green Exchange’, subscribe and share with your friends and colleagues. EM: It’s not even physically hard. CD: It only takes one finger. EM: Or…two at the most… PLASTIC SOUP: HOW MUCH POLLUTION IS LEAKING INTO THE OCEAN? 02:44 CD: Now, time to get our hands dirty EM: I guess we can just put them into the ocean then? CD: Yeah…the problem is, I am in Brussels. EM: Ah, that’s right, how is it going by the way? CD: We’ll talk about it. In due time…again. EM: You don’t want to share anything. CD: I don’t want to get anyone lost, that’s all. As you know, we are going to unpack the European debate later on in the series, in relation to the upcoming Plastic Strategy to be put forward by the EU institutions. All I can tell you is that the European Commission staff is being bombarded with meeting requests, invitations, papers etc. mainly from industry who is trying to defend its interests I suppose. EM: Right. CD: So it’s hot at the moment. EM: I can only imagine, can’t wait to unpack all this! CD: Let’s go then! EM: Where should we start? CD: I thought we should start from the visible part of the problem. EM: Millions and millions of tons of plastic are dumped into the ocean every year. CD: Good place to start. Because this is what we see in the first place. That’s the story we are all usually starting from. The albatros with plastic caps in the stomach, the big plastic gyres in the ocean. EM: At this point I think everyone has seen images or videos of what’s going on. CD: Yes, and in case you need more material on this we prepared a few links for you in the episode notes. But let me ask you this: what is the first thought that comes to mind when you see all that trash in the ocean? EM: That we should clean this up. CD: Right, logical reaction. Cleaning up. But here is the thing: we said we would not talk about cleanup remember? EM: Yes. [Audio segment from Episode #1] EM: That’s still the plan right? Focusing on closing the tap? CD: It is, but I realised one thing over the last few weeks. There are a lot of people who think we actually can cleanup the ocean. EM: That’s true. CD: Including policy makers and industry professionals, there is a lot of confusion on this. And most importantly, it’s taking too much attention away from the most productive areas of action. EM: Like working upstream, on where all this plastic waste is coming from. CD: Exactly, so then I thought, if we want to be comprehensive in our approach and truly advance the discussion, we should cover this issue once and for all. Can we cleanup the ocean? EM: I don’t really know actually, technically I mean… how much can we clean…? So we should spend a bit of time on this today? CD: I think so. EM: Then we can focus on closing the tap without any regret. CD: Yeah, let’s do this. And you know what? I scanned through 7.5 Billion people living on Planet Earth and I found THE person we need for a solid answer to this cleanup question. Someone who studied hard this very topic. She’s called Kim Martini and we’ll talk to her later on. Kim Martini [KM]: And members of the Journal of Science community said “Look, can you do an independent review of this, because we really want to know whether this is real, because this is promising a lot”. 06:38 EM: I can’t wait, and what do we start with ? CD: I was thinking of taking you up on a balloon. High up in the sky – figuratively. Just so we can take a bit of perspective before we put our head back in the water. EM: Oh man, I’ve always wanted to take a ride on one of them! And yes, may be worth doing some contextualising. CD: Let’s go, you want to pull that rope thing? EM: Sure! [Air balloon launches]. CD: Wow, my hair! EM: Woah! CD: I haven’t asked you if you’re afraid of heights. EM: Well it’s too late now! CD: I guess we’re trying to understand where this plastic problem stands among all the challenges we have to solve on this poor Planet. EM: It’s a good idea, sometimes I don’t think we realise how big the issue is, or its implications. When did we start talking about ocean plastic by the way? Obviously it has become a hot topic now, but how long have we known this for? CD: Well, it’s been about 20 years i would say. Actually, it’s been exactly 20 years that Captain Charles Moore has found the Great Pacific Garbage patch. EM: Charles Moore! I love that guy. CD: Yes, for those of you who don’t know him, Charles Moore is an oceanographer and racing boat captain. Since his first publications in 1997, he has become an icon of the movement, drew tons of media attention to the issue of ocean plastic, millions and millions of views on YouTube. He also conducted years of research, drove campaigns and more. Of course, many other people have also been active on the issue since then but, yeah, he has been a prominent voice on the subject matter. EM: So we have around twenty years of awareness. It feels like a lot. CD: Yes, and in twenty years, Charles Moore has not gotten more optimistic. I talked to him last week actually EM: You talked to Charles Moore? CD: Yes, I thought it would be good to exchange a few thoughts. EM: And? CD: Hah, he is a real Captain. EM: What do you mean? CD: Well, tone of voice of a captain, he behaves like a captain, he uses captain words… EM: Haha, really? CD: Yeah. Like, I asked him what’s the weather like in California today… just to small talk for a second… and here is what he replied. 09:17 CM: It is tropical, but Southern California weather for summer, with a little bit of tropical moisture, but warm. The clouds are clearing, they’re mostly inland, and people got some rain. But yeah…basically clear and sunny. EM: That is a real Captain answer! CD: Yes, no doubt I was talking to Charles Moore. EM: Good. PLASTIC POLLUTION: STOP TALKING ABOUT CLEAN UP CD: So I started by telling him about what we were planning for our investigation, and he cut me right away and said: CM: Are you going to look at the causes for all that in a more deep manner? I mean, I’m getting tired of the beach cleanup, plastic bag ban mentality. We’ve got to attack the cause of the entire peking rationale of the current system. It’s losing its rational. CD: I was not expecting this comment from him, and so we got into a big picture discussion, basically. CM: The human condition is not improving anymore under competitive economic scenarios. The alternative energy sector has developed faster than the petroleum industry expected, which means they’re going to be focusing on other uses of petroleum other than fuel. And it’s becoming plastic as that alternative. And that alternative means that the junk we create – that lasts for seconds, gets discarded and has no afterlife or take-back infrastructure – is going to be the salvation of capitalism. EM: Wow… CD: Yes, this can come out as strong words, but we’ll talk more about it and you will connect the dots. For now, the only point I want to make here is that once you start looking into plastic, you arrive very quickly at systemic discussions that touch on economic models of our societies, world trade, biology, health, human rights etc. EM: I see. CD: And those bigger picture challenges are very difficult to ignore. EM: I think I see where you’re going with this: we easily fall into band aid solutions because we don’t want to address the bigger picture. CD: Exactly. You know the drill. And that’s why everyone like to talk about cleaning up the ocean for instance. Because this way we don’t have to change anything, we can just hope for cleanup technology & people to fix it. EM: Right. CD: Anyway, back to Charles Moore, we talked for a few minutes about this and then got into other questions. Like, I also wanted to get a sense for how fast the amount of ocean plastic is increasing – since he has been following this from the beginning. 12:23 CM: We have a fifteen year timeline in the northern hemisphere, and in the stations we monitor in the North Pacific garbage patch, we’ve seen a sixty-fold increase in fifteen years. We’re just getting ready to publish this. But that’s by count. And it’s in the several hundreds by weight. It’s exponentially increasing in the North Pacific. Like I said, it looks like a polluted harbour, a dirty beach, out in the middle of the ocean for hundreds of kilometres. EM: Sixty times more than fifteen years ago? CD: Yes, by count. And in the hundreds by weight. EM: Wow so it’s a biggie. CD: Yes. That’s not a small issue. PLASTIC POLLUTION: AS IMPORTANT AS CLIMATE CHANGE? CM: There’s tremendous parity there between what’s happening with the planetary disruption by climate change, and the disruption of the marine environment by plastic. The marine environment is much larger than the land environment, it has much more habitat, and that habitat is completely being very insidiously penetrated by these synthetic polymers of every shape, size, colour and type. And it’s mimicking natural food and it’s acting like a predator – so it’s both predator and prey. As predator it tangles and it kills by making it impossible for creatures to move – it strangles them. And as prey it kills by being consumed, absorbing all these pollutants and blocking digestive tracts – it’s basically putting the ocean on a plastic diet. It’s killing the albatross with plastic bottle caps, who are feeding them to their chicks, and the chicks die with plastic bottle caps in their stomachs. For that reason, I think we have to have this plastic conversation. 15:29 CD: And as you, we are going to reach a point where there will be more plastic than fish in the ocean. Industry is telling us we should expect production to increase threefold by 2050. So it’s not only what’s out there already but it’s also looking at the trends. EM: So do you think that although ocean plastic is getting a lot of coverage at the moment… it’s not enough? CD: I would say It’s probably not getting the amount of constructive discussions it deserves. CM: It needs to be ranked as a planetary emergency along with chemical pollution, climate change, and nuclear proliferation. CD: I don’t think this is overstated, actually. EM: No probably not. CD: So, on the framing part, that’s the first point I wanted us to make today. Ocean Plastic is not a small issue that is killing a couple of turtles and birds. EM: It’s a planetary emergency. CD: Yes. The theme is definitely getting more and more traction, a lot of us are talking about it, producing media, films, etc. But still, it’s far from being enough. Industry and public authorities really need to put their sh*t together, and quick. [Landing the balloon sound] CD: Alright we’re going to land now! EM: Do you actually know what you’re doing? CD: I am usually better at take offs than landings… EM: Ohhhh god. CD: Alright so, hang on…. There you go, nice and soft. EM: Nice one, you may have a career as a balloon pilot! CD: Right, I’m actually thinking about it. EM: So, where to start? Shouldn’t we start by cleaning the ocean? CD: [strong French accent]: You’re pulling my leg??? EM: [Laughs]. Yes I am! CD: Okay, let’s demonstrate once and for all that ocean cleanup is the wrong battle to fight. Period. EM: Alright, convince me. Hey, I feel like a Myth Buster! CD: A myth buster…Oh, you give me an idea. One second! That’s right…just wait one second… [Ghostbusters theme plays]. EM: Oh no…what have I started? I’ve created a monster. 17:59 CD: Okay, here is what we’re going to do. Thanks for the idea! I see it now Through this investigation, Eleen, we are going to dismantle a lot of harmful narratives. Okay? That’s the plan. Like the plastic eating bug story, or oh, plastic helps us fight climate change or … we can cleanup the ocean. All those are myths we are going to bust. EM: Yeah…? CD: We are myth busters. EM: Yeaaah? CD: Well here it is: [Ghostbusters music plays] CD: That’s the new jingle for our myth busting episodes. Come on let’s practice a couple of times. EM: Camille, people are going to hate us. CD: Everyone loves this song! [Eleen and Camille sing the song]. EM: Okay, let’s get this over with. Onto the myth busting now! CD: No, no, no, we are going to close that episode and start a new one called: myth busting: We can cleanup the ocean or something like that. EM: Alright, a new episode then… END
32 minutes | Sep 17, 2017
Mixtape #10: An Alternative to Exercise Apps
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Photo by Katalin Szarvas. Intro Life is tough, especially on our bodies. Many of us spend way too much time sitting in traffic, or hunched over our desks, staring at screens…and we know we need to do better, but sometimes it’s hard to add mind-body awareness to our hectic daily lives. Well don’t worry, because we’ve got just what you need. In these 30 minutes, we’ll teach you the tricks you need to change your working life, and keep your body in tip-top shape. Our guest is yoga teacher and massage therapist Julia Zatta. The music is a cool and sooting mix of binaural beats that will give that hard working brain a rest. This mixtape is designed for three specific situations: S1: You’re really stressed and you need some way to wind down, without intoxicating your body. S2: You’re in the mood to expand your consciousness, mess with your brain – with just your smartphone and a pair of headphones. S3: You desperately need a new body-mind practice. We’ve got what you need. And hey – if you want to put these exercises into practice, here’s the 10 minute workout from the episode. Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Your life is hard, you spend a lot of time in front of that bloody screen, sitting on this office chair, driving your car or running around town. This is tough on your body. No, this is not an advertisement for a new deodorant, this is another mixtape produced by Green Exchange to make sure you take serious care of your body. Remember it’s the only place you have to live and life is a marathon, not a sprint. Okay, it may look more like a marathon with a lot of sprints in the middle. Especially if you are trying to make new things happen in society, defend the interests of your community or protect the environment. Nevertheless, you need a high-performing body, a productive brain, and a big heart that doesn’t get tired. As always with our mixtapes, we start from a good music track. And this one is going to mess with your brain, in a good way! As you know, we always invite a guest co-host that knows a lot about the topic. And we start from there. Today we are lucky to have Julia Zatta to guide us through this body awareness mixtape, she knows all the good tricks that could change your working life – if you practice them of course. It’s up to you. CD: Hello Julia, thanks for being with us Julia Zatta [JZ]: Hi Camille, it’s great to be here. CD: We got something special today. JZ: That’s right! CD: But before we start, I need to contextualise a little bit, as always, so our listeners know what kind of music and mood to expect for the coming thirty minutes. This mixtape is designed for 3 specific situations: Situation 1: You know when you’re really stressed and all your want to do is go get a drink or maybe for some of you go reach for the b*ng – well, this mixtape is for that kind of moment, you’ll be able to leave the stress behind without intoxicating your body. You are going to feel really relaxed. Situation 2: You want to mess with your brain for experimental purposes. You really feel like expanding your consciousness but you don’t want to go the traditional route. You feel like in the lab and if you had all those machines and sensors you would use them but you’re on a tight budget. All you have is a smartphone and a good pair of headphones. No pro, bro. We have THE soundtrack for you. Situation 3: You need a new body-mind practice. And you are bored to death with your weekly meditation group where the smell of incense commingles with body odour. Are we on the metro here or in an Asian temple? And that voice! Whose is it? Is it the voice in my head or is it the teacher talking? – I don’t know anymore, this is supposed to be relaxing but it’s stressing me out – I’m out of here. Yes, you need a new body-mind practice. Let’s get started! 03:02 CD: Okay Julia, who are you, first of all? Tell us a little bit about yourself. JZ: Okay well I’m Julia Zatta and I’m a yoga teacher, and I’m also a massage therapist, specialised in posture. CD: Posture? Is that important really? JZ: Yes. It’s very important because posture isn’t just your physical posture (how you hold your body), but it’s also the position you adopt in life. CD: That’s going to be very helpful. We’ve made some room in the studio so we can practice a few movements as well while we’re recording. And we are going to listen to some binaureal beats, that’s how we say it? JZ: Bin-au…binaural…ah, I don’t know. CD: I think binaural. You know what? Let’s check it out. [Computer Voice]: Binaural. CD: [Copies computer voice]. What is that supposed to do? How does it work, what is a binaural beat? JZ: Well it’s supposed to put you in a nice, relaxed, focused state of mind that is ideal for meditation. Binaural beats are made with two sounds. They have slightly different frequencies, and you hear one sound in one ear, and one sound in another ear, and it creates an effect in your brain that creates a third sound. CD: Wow, that’s a bit like getting high. JZ: [Laughs] Just a little bit! CD: Okay, so you need good headphones. JZ: For sure. CD: Actually, we don’t talk about this often enough, but listening to any Green Exchange episode with good headphones is a whole different experience. Because we are investing more and more into the sound quality and editing techniques that you’ll miss if you don’t use good headphones. Julia, why don’t we get in the mood and listen to a couple of minutes of binaural beats before we start digging? JZ: Let’s go for it! [Music] 06:54 CD: First of all, if we call it a practice, it’s because you need to practice it! JZ: Yes, that’s how it works. CD: Which is why we are also producing a short five minute track that you can use anytime you want to reset your mind, you can simply take a break at your desk, take a moment before going out to lunch, or use it to close your workday. In this shorter version we cut out all the bla-bla so that you can go straight into the exercises and practice, practice, practice. JZ: Absolutely, it only works if you do it. And what we’re going to do today is a few different exercises to get your brain and your body in shape, and ready for what’s next. CD: So exercise one, what do you have for us? JZ: This first exercise is going to be to relax our eyes, because most of us spend all day staring into our computers or our smartphones. So we’re going to start by placing our hands over our eyes in a way that we can keep our eyes open without seeing anything. To do this you might want to sit back into your chair, soften your shoulders; place your hands over your eyes and keep your eyes open while you take a few deep breaths and listen to our special tracks. [Music] 10:05 JZ: Anytime you feel your eyes getting tired from looking into a screen would be a good moment to do this. CD: You know Julia, one problem I often have at the computer is, you know it’s really the neck tension. JZ: Yes, everybody suffers from that, it’s super common. CD: Do you have a magic recipe or an exercise I can practice to get my neck relaxed? JZ: I do! CD: Tell me. JZ: Alright, so for this one you’re going to do it with your nose. So, just looking straight ahead and softening your shoulders, put your attention on the tip of your nose. And now with the tip of your nose you’re going to start to draw a small circle, like a spiral that slowly gets bigger. Keep your eyes soft and keep making that spiral bigger and bigger. Try and slow down your movements if you can. And when your spiral gets almost to the size of a tennis ball in circumference, you can start to spiral back down into a small circle. So you can wind it back up into the centre slowly. And once you arrive in the centre, you do it again but in the opposite direction. [Music] 11:59 CD: Wow, it works! JZ: Yes, so we have these two joints at the top of our spine, and they get really compressed throughout the day, and these little movements that we do by drawing circles with our nose, helps to de-stress our neck and the top of our spine. CD: Okay Julia, one thing I do worry about is not looking stupid at my desk when I’m doing those exercises. The one with the nose spiral was okay. But now I feel like we’re going to get into something that takes a bit more space. JZ: Yes. CD: Should I worry about how I’m going to look? JZ: Yes you should! CD: Great [laughs]. What’s next? JZ: Okay our next one is going to be for the top of our spine. We’re going to do just a couple of gentle twists at our chair. So make sure you’re sitting up nice and tall, and that your hips are level with your knees. Make sure you’re not sitting back into your chair for this one, you want to sit up straight. From here you can turn your chest to the left side and grab the back of your chair to help you go into the twist. Make sure your hips stay even and level. And you’re going to hold that for a breath or two and then come back to centre. Reset, put your spine nice and long again, and then slowly turn to your right, using the arm or back of the chair to twist to the right side. And again, you want to hold this here for a couple of breaths, keeping your hips steady and level. And then gently release and come back to centre. You can repeat this as many times as you like throughout the day, it’s so nice. [Music] 15:10 CD: Okay should we talk about our spine now? JZ: Definitely. Our spine has four very important movements that we should do every day to keep it in good health. These movements are flexion, extension, side bending, and twisting. CD: Okay. JZ: So we just did a spinal twist, now we’re going to go for flexion and extension of the spine. This is another exercise that you can do at your desk when you want to take a little break because your neck feels stiff or your back feels sore. So to do this exercise, you want to make sure your feet are nicely grounded on the floor, and you can place your hands on your knees, your elbows pointing out. And from here you’re going to round your spine and bring your chin into your chest like an angry cat, and just round as much as you possibly can while still breathing. And then slowly on your next inhale you’re going to go the opposite way. You’re going to bring your elbows in towards your body and you’re going to lift your chest and lift your chin, and arch your spine back. On your next exhale you’re going to round again, and come back in towards the centre, chin to chest, keeping your back nice and rounded. And on your next inhale, you’re going to roll your shoulders back, lift your chest, lift your chine, and arch your spine back. You can repeat this three to five times, it feels really nice after you’ve spent a lot of time at your desk. CD: I think with this one people will start to look at me in a weird way at the office. That’s the beginning of the end, no? JZ: It’s the beginning of the end. Or a beginning of a new trend! CD: Wow! [Music] 17:21 CD: Now, in case I want to impress my colleagues even more, what should I do? JZ: Well, you can take up even more space, I’ve got a good one for that! CD: Let’s go! JZ: For this one you want to come to the front of your seat, and make sure your feet are nice and flat on the floor. With an inhale lengthen your spine, and as you exhale, place your right hand on your right knee. Inhale, lift your left arm up, all the way up, reaching towards the ceiling. Exhale here and now start to lean towards your right side. Stretch your left side open as much as you can. On your next inhale, come back up. And exhale, bring your left arm down. Now we’re going to do the other side. So place your left hand on your left knee. Inhale, sweep your right arm up towards the ceiling. And as you exhale, bend your left, stretching your right side, body long. And inhale, come back up and stretch to the ceiling. And exhale, bring your right arm down onto your knee. CD: You know what I would really like, Julia? I’d like our listeners to send us pictures of them or their colleagues doing this exercise. JZ: I would love that! I would love to see them on Instagram doing these exercises at their desk. CD: Can we offer a special ten minute phone consultation with Julia? The three first ones who send pictures of their exercise? JZ: Absolutely! I’d love to give postural assessments. CD: So get your postural assessment with Julia now, and send us your pictures. We’re only at exercise five, we have a few more to go. Now it’s time to stand up. Even more space at the office. JZ: Okay this is an easy one. It’s just about taking a forward bend so you can stretch the backs of your legs and the back of your backside. So you can turn your chair so that you’re facing the back of your chair, and you can place your hands on the back of your chair. Now you’re going to walk back away from your hands so that your arms can stretch nice and long, and from there you can fold forward. Make sure when you do this exercise that you’re folding forward from your hips and not from your low back. So you’ll want to keep your low back as long as possible, not rounding. You should feel a nice stretch in your back and even maybe your arms. And you just want to hold this for a few breaths. [Music] 20:21 JZ: And then slowly bend your knees and come back up. CD: And people passing in front of the window of the studio are wondering what the hell we’re doing in there. But we don’t care! We feel more and more relaxed! Okay. [Music] 21:47 CD: You know, we tend to work a lot on relaxing our back, but I heard legs are also very important. JZ: Absolutely. the legs are the support for our back, and when our legs are weak, then our back is going to hurt. So this exercise we’re going to do right now is to stretch out the fronts of our legs that get really short from sitting a lot. So we’re going to stand up, still facing the back of our chair. This time we’re going to rest our hands on the back of our chair and take a step back with our right foot, and bring our right knee to the ground. So you can make this harder by just hovering your right knee above the ground, or you can rest your knee on the ground. And we’re looking for a stretching sensation in the front of your right thigh. This is where your hip flexor muscles are and they get really contracted when you sit down for long periods of time. Just hold this stretch, take three to five breaths. And when you’re finished, come back up and switch sides. [Music] 24:54 CD: It’s quite a challenge to visualise these positions just from audio. It’s the way it is, it’s a podcast. You need to visualise, you need to use your imagination, and you need to listen. [Music] 25:27 CD: Alright so we’re going to keep going down. To the knees now? JZ: So our next exercise is just to move our knees a little bit to get the blood flowing a little bit more. And we can do this one sitting in the front of our chair. So, sitting nice and tall, you can stretch your right leg forward; just picking your foot off the floor, stretching the leg, and then bending the knee again and placing it back on the floor. And we’re going to repeat this about five times to get your knee joint moving, because every time we move our joints, the fluid inside gets renewed and our joints stay young and mobile. After five repetitions you’re going to switch sides, placing your right leg on the floor and lifting your left foot off the floor; stretching your left leg, and then bending your knee, and stretching your left leg again. And repeating three to five times. [Music] 27:15 CD: If every time you lift your foot, you hear “Ow! Oh!”, it’s probably that you’re hitting your colleague sitting in front of you, no? JZ: Yeah, be mindful of your neighbours! [Laughs]. CD: At this point I’m so relaxed I don’t know if I can go back to work, but lets keep going. JZ: Okay we’ve got one more. This is a grounding exercise for your feet. Our feet are the most disconnected part of our body normally because all our attention is in our head, eyes and in our hands. So now we’re just going to take a minute to just feel our feet as we place them flat on the floor. We’re going to imagine for a second that we’re on a beach and that our feet our resting on the sand. And you want to leave a perfect footprint of each foot on the sand. It’s helpful if you do this with bare feet. But if not you’re just going to have to use your vivid imagination. Try and trace the outline of each foot as if you’re trying to leave a perfect footprint in soft, wet sand underneath your foot. Take the time to feel what it would feel like and imagine it in your mind’s eye. And you want to do one foot at a time. Once you’ve done both feet, just rest in the sensation of your two perfect footprints. [Music & Sounds] 32:22 CD: Okay, well this gives me a lot of great ideas. My colleagues are definitely impressed at this point, because while they’re thinking about if they should get into it, I already got back to work and I’m so efficient and so relaxed. JZ: Oh, that’s great to hear! CD: To finish, you have a secret trick that you want to share with us. JZ: That is a secret trick that ensures success in most things, and it is to do it every day! CD: Don’t be shy! Thank you Julia for stopping by. JZ: Oh you’re so welcome! CD: Hope to see you soon. Ciao! END
11 minutes | Sep 17, 2017
BONUS: 10 Minute Body Reboot
10 minute mind-body exercise for you to practice anytime you need. By yoga teacher and massage therapist Julia Zatta in Mixtape 10: An Alternative to Exercise Apps, produced by Green Exchange.
7 minutes | Sep 10, 2017
Earth Calling #8: Extinction
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Intro Something is wrong. We haven’t heard from Planet Earth in a while…does she still listen to our stories? We try to find out what’s going on, and to share one last story… Back to series page Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Okay Eleen, we need to do something, When is the last time I left her a voicemail? Eleen Murphy [EM]: I don’t know a few weeks maybe CD: I’m looking through my phone…July 23rd! It’s been more than a month and we still have no sign of her existence. No text message, no voicemail no call nothing! I am sorry but we have to figure this out, we cannot keep pretending everything is fine because it’s not. EM: No, you’re right, something is going on. Let’s take this from the start, shall we? CD: Okay. EM: So, one day she calls and says, “Hey I feel depressed, I want to hear positive change stories, you humans are making a mess,” that sort of thing. CD: Right. And from there we start serving her positive change stories. We decide to focus on human beings that are truly making a difference. EM: Yes. CD: And it was working it seems, no? She was calling back to hear more. EM: Yeah well…she was also calling back because you were flirting with her. CD: Come on Eleen that cannot be the reason, and we were just making friends! I told you. EM: It doesn’t matter, I guess… CD: Right. Then we told a couple of rough stories that I think that we shouldn’t have told. EM: Oh, like the one about North Korea? No actually, I think they were very empowering and pretty positive. CD: So why did she stop calling from that point in time? EM: Oh, I think I got it. CD: Tell me. EM: Well, maybe she has a love-hate relationship with us…with human beings, I mean. CD: A love-hate relationship? What do you mean? EM: Well if I was her, I would be very confused. Because there is a beautiful side to the homo sapiens-sapiens. It’s easy to fall in love with our species. There is also a side that’s not so beautiful… CD: Yeah you don’t need to explain that part I think everyone is aware of it. What’s your point? EM: Maybe she couldn’t decide? Whether we’re worth it or not. I mean, even with all the positive change stories out there. She might feel humans are not doing enough. That we have no respect for what was given to us, although we have no excuse. I mean we’re conscious, smart…we’re supposed to know what we’re doing. CD: So what? I don’t know where you’re going with this? What is she going to do? EM: I don’t know, but that could explain why she’s not calling anymore. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense… CD: I don’t know Eleen… EM: We have to remember we’ve upset her natural balance. it’s not about us and our positive stories – who are we? We’re one species that’s been here for 150-200,000 years out of the four billion years that she was alive. CD: Yeah, life on Earth appeared 3.8 billion years ago actually… EM: Whatever! So many species have gone extinct in the history of our Planet, I’m not sure one more or one less is going to make a difference to her if you really think about it. CD: So what? She’s going to get rid of us? EM: What do you do if some tiny creatures start messing up your ecosystem? I know I reach for the medicine cabinet right away. CD: She likes us. EM: Maybe, but listen: we have to put things into her perspective! ….I mean, we can’t keep telling our environmentalist stories as if we were all high and mighty. Maybe we have to look at the bigger picture. CD: I’m calling her again, I don’t give a sh*t. I have a story that she will love, she cannot ignore this one. I’m telling you… EM: Come one man, think about this…we must be doing something wrong! CD: I’m calling. EM: Jesus, fine…as you like, Mr. Duran [PHONE GOES TO VOICEMAIL] CD: Hey, I know you still don’t answer and I am not sure what’s going on but I am not giving up. Here is another story for you, I hope you will give it the attention it deserves… [SILENT PAUSE]. CD: Sorry I need to calm down one second. I just don’t get why you disappear like this… Okay. It takes place in South Africa. It’s a story about extinction, I guess that’s one theme that interests you. Actually, it’s about how human beings are preventing animal extinction from happening. EM: Watch your tone, this is not helping. CD: This part of Africa has a history of illegal hunting. Over the last years they have been facing a real poaching crisis. illegal hunters go after the horns of animals to sell them on international markets for a lot of money. There is a species that is particularly endangered in the region: the black rhino. [OFFICE STARTS SHAKING] CD: The rhino family is one of the few species left from the perissodactyls – a group of animals that is more than 30million years old as I’m sure you know. The black rhino disappearing is a big concern of course and we are soon reaching a point of no return. But there are organised groups that are working hard everyday to maintain animal peace in the Balule Nature Reserve. This is the story of… [SHAKING IS GETTING STRONGER] EM: Camille, something’s happening CD: No kidding! EM: I think we need to get out of here… CD: What the f**k is going? It cannot be an earthquake… EM: I don’t know, do you think it’s her!? CD: [ON PHONE] Hello? Come on speak to us…. EM: We have to get out of here, now… Camille, now!! [CAMILLE DROPS PHONE, EARTHQUAKE SOUND OVERTAKES. PHONE BEEPS] END
4 minutes | Sep 1, 2017
Quickfire #4: Our New Logohunt Game On Instagram
Next time you’re bored on your lunch break, try our new game on Instagram. We hide our logo in the a set of images we post on our profile @greenxeurope.In each new set of images, there is one logo to find. If you find it, send us a direct message telling us where it is, the colour, and the size, and we’ll send you something nice. Good luck and happy hunting!
19 minutes | Aug 24, 2017
Oceans #1: Plastic Pollution, Crime & Nutrition – Plotting The Course
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Photo by atlanticleather Intro Resources We live on a blue planet, surrounded by oceans. But how much do we really know about what goes on in our oceans? Where does all the plastic come from, and how do we stop it from getting in there? What does piracy, money laundering, and illegal dumping do to our oceans and our societies? And how exactly can the oceans help feed the ten billion people living on this planet? In this episode, we set the stage for our Oceans series – our most ambitious one yet. We tell you where we’re headed, how to use this series, the questions we’ll be asking, and all the fun things we have planned. With this, you’ll be all set to start the adventure with us. • OECD INSIGHTS The Trillion Dollar Ocean | Article | • Business Insider The economic output by the world’s oceans is worth $2.5 trillion a year | Article | • OECD The Ocean Economy in 2030 | Report | • Marine Conservation Institute | Website | • Scripps Institution of Oceanography | Website | Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Eleen do you know why mussels never donate money? Eleen Murphy [EM]: Uh… no CD: Because they are shellfish. EM: Wow, ok let’s get started! CD: Yes, today we are starting a big investigation. Before we introduce this new series, should we run an equipment check, very quick? EM: Sure. CD: Pen and paper? EM: Check! CD: Telephone with battery? EM: Check! CD: Fiber-optic internet? EM: Check! CD: Snacks? EM: A lot of them, check. CD: Fast computers and software? EM: Check! CD: A time machine? EM: Check! CD: Problems to solve? EM: Check! CD: All access to international experts, celebrities and leading voices? EM: Check! CD: Listeners and partners with questions? EM: Check, I think! CD: A critical mind with an appetite for strong sustainability solutions? EM: Check! CD: Microphones? EM: Check! CD: Alright, it sounds like we are ready to start a new series! Eleen, would you do the honours and tell us what this investigation is about? EM: We re going to talk about… CD: No need to drag it out, they have read it in the title of the episode EM: Oceans! CD: Wow, what a surprise. So before we push the button, I thought you could tell us why oceans matter? EM: Well what matters most is that there are a lot of dirty secrets out there around oceans. There’s a lot of stories we never hear about. But I think we should. CD: Have we been misled? Again?! EM: You’ll find out soon. But to answer your first question, I think oceans matter because: We live on a Planet called the Blue Planet, covered by around 70% water. Each year, oceans produces almost the same amount of biomass as terrestrial habitats – around fifty0 billion tonnes. CD: What? EM: We just don’t see it! EM: If you take the ocean-based industries… and look at their contribution to economic output and employment each year… it’s a big number. There are different sources but we’re talking about around two and a half trillion dollars per year – that’s like the economic output of a big country, like Brazil or the UK. CD: Wow! EM: Back in 2010 these industries were already contributing to thirty million jobs and the OECD tells us it could grow another 30% by 2030! CD: That’s a lot of jobs! EM: And of course, there are big, big challenges ahead of us that are far from being solved: ocean pollution, overfishing, permanent crime like human or drug trafficking, all the economic issues around the ocean, energy production, resource management in general…the list goes on and on. CD: Wow, I think we all agree that ocean is a theme that deserves its own series at Green Exchange. If after that you still think oceans are not that important, please write us an email. EM: We’ll reconsider. CD: Eleen it is safe to say that this is our most ambitious investigation to date, we will have very special guest, tell you all the stories, even the ones we are not supposed to, we will podcast from underwater, hop aboard big boats… EM: And small ones. CD: Live podcast from big events, etc… EM: And small ones. CD: And go after big fish… EM: …and small ones! EM: Now that we know about the theme why don’t you tell us who this series is for Camille? CD: Good question, I think a lot of us could benefit from this investigation. First, anyone who is keen on spending a good time, hearing crazy stories, and learning something along the way. You will be able to explain to your friends and colleagues what’s going on with our oceans. EM: Without getting them bored. CD: …Or you can also keep all the knowledge for yourself. EM: That’s right! CD: This series is for you if you want to clearly understand the root cause of the challenges we are facing on the blue side of our Planet. And what are the big investment and policy decisions we need to make as a society. EM: Policy-makers? CD: Yes, they should definitely follow our investigations. Many of them are lost in the deep blue. They have industry, NGOs and Facebook videos pulling them in all directions and they are the ones behind the big influential decisions. EM: We’ll invite a few of them on the show maybe? CD: All policy-makers are invited, let’s see who picks-up the phone… EM: Who else? CD: Journalists, media professionals. If you are getting started on this issue for an article or other piece of content, you are welcome to use this series as a source of ideas and cases. Or if you have stories or sources to contribute, send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org. EM: Journalists are an important part of the story here because those stories are so complex that it’s hard to get a quick overview. CD: Then anyone with an interest in oceans really, whether on ocean pollution, overfishing, crime, money laundering via the ocean, economic & industrial issues… Welcome aboard! EM: If I want to learn about animals, conservation, and the more traditional oceanography topics? CD: Yes well then we will connect you to our favourite publications because that’s the part we won’t get into here. EM: Alright. CD: Eleen are you ready to get this party started? EM: I am ready. CD: Do you see the blue button in front of you? It’s time to press it. EM: I’m excited! CD: Let’s go! CD: You know what’s one good thing about this topic? I am finally going to be able to use a voice effect that I created a while ago. EM: Oh no… CD: It will make us sounds like we are talking under water. EM: No please… CD: [Under water] What? Eleen? Can’t hear you if you are staying at the surface! EM: Alright. CD: [Under water] Hey here you are. See, now we can see what’s really going on here. EM: Wow. EM: Okay let’s keep the special effects for later. Can you detail what are we going to talk about in this series instead? CD: Right. Good question. I am sorry to inform you we are not going to be able to solve all of the oceans problems with one podcast series. EM: No? CD: No, so we picked three topics to start with. Plastic Pollution, Crime and Nutrition. EM: Plastic pollution, crime and nutrition. That’s already a lot to deal with. CD: Yes, and I will tell you more in a minute. But before that I would like to clarify a couple of things about this series and our approach to investigations in general – for those who are not familiar with Green Exchange. EM: Mmh CD: Point one, we are producing this series as an umbrella investigation. EM: An umbrella investigation? CD: Yes, it means it encapsulates other investigations and stories. Basically we are doing some cleaning. Because tons of content have been produced already. Some of it is good, most of it is incomplete, and some media out there is actually harmful to the Planet and society in general. EM: Green Exchange cleans the house! CD: That’s right, our mission here is to help you articulate your thoughts in a constructive way. We ask bold questions, we challenge everything and everyone – EM: – all the time. CD: Point two, we are going to talk to experts, policy makers, activists, other journalists, intergovernmental organisations and citizens, maybe a few celebrities are going to join us as well. EM: Celebrities? Exciting. CD: Well we have you already…Eleen… EM: Aw, right, can’t get out of the house right now because of all the paparazzi. CD: Just wear sunglasses and a cap. EM: I’ll think about it. CD: We’ll try to stay pragmatic and practical. EM: Some philosophy may be necessary as well though. CD: Yes, philosophy Green Exchange style. If the result of your actions hurts anyone, violate human rights or damages the environment, there is probably a better way. EM: Probably yes. Now, I want to talk more about our three topics – plastic pollution, crime and nutrition – because you haven’t said what we are going after for each one. And I have seen a few crazy stories going around the office. CD: True. Really Crazy stories. But before that… EM: Noooo! CD: I would like to suggest a little audio interlude that is going to help us visualise how people from around the world interact with the ocean. What is your relationship with the ocean? view from the shore, from a fishing boat? scuba diving? Let’s get in the mood…. [Audio Interlude]. EM: wow that was cool. You can really hear how different people use the ocean in different ways. EM: Now can we please get to the crazy stories. CD: I never said I would tell them right now. EM: Ehh, I think you did Camille… CD: Nope, you told me you saw some crazy stories circulate in the office and I said yep but you were asking me about our three topics. EM: Alright. Moving on CD: Okay back to our three topics? EM: Yeah sure. CD: Topic number one: Plastic Pollution. Whoever you are, you probably heard a lot of different things about how to solve plastic pollution. There is what industry tells us, what policy makers tell us, what NGOs tell us, the people, one video goes viral and we feel we solved the case. EM: Yes like for instance the video from the young Boyan Slat who apparently found the magic solution to clean-up the ocean from plastic. CD: Yes we are not going to talk about so much about that because that is just distracting people from the real problem. EM: What do you mean? CD: Let me ask you this Eleen. You get home and your house is flooded because you left the tap open. Everything is a mess. Water everywhere. The tap is still open. Water keeps flowing. What is the first thing that you do? EM: I close the tap. CD: Right. So that’s the only thing we are going to talk about in this series. How can we close the tap? In other words, what are real solutions to stop plastic from leaking into the ocean. And how much plastic do we actually need? EM: Industry is telling us they are planning on increasing plastic production three-fold by 2050. CD: On the other side, NGOs and researchers tell us that by then we will have more plastic than fish in the ocean. EM: So let’s close the tap! CD: We will do some myth-busting so experts can tell us what we should believe in or not? We will talk about the role of celebrities, in an episode called “The Hall of Shame”. EM: The Hall of Shame? Can you explain? CD: Yes, we are going to go on YouTube, and research the commercials featuring celebrities that have been promoting excessive plastic consumption. EM: George Clooney comes to mind. CD: We will call those celebrities via their PR agents and ask them to tweet something nice for the planet to show how guilty they feel now that we know the impact of those products. EM: Exciting. You think they will? CD: If they don’t they enter the Hall of Shame. It’s their last chance, Eleen. It’s their last chance. CD: So anyway, regarding the investigation at the policy and investment level, we will focus on what needs immediate action. EM: Looking forward to it. EM: Our second topic will be crime? CD: Yes, the ocean is stage to a lot of nasty business: crime in the fishery sector, human trafficking, drug trafficking, piracy (as we talked about in our last Mixtape), it enables money laundering and fiscal evasion, illegal fishing, dumping of pollutants (other than plastic). A lot to talk about here. EM: Yes, this theme has become high on the agenda for a number of intergovernmental organisations. CD: Here you can already feel the craziness of the stories we’re about to investigate. EM: I do! How about our third topic? CD: Nutrition from the ocean. This one is pretty straightforward: What’s the role of the ocean in feeding a ten billion people planet? EM: Wow , a lot to unpack there as well. CD: On all of those topics we will also get on the road, we are going to attend a selection of events, conferences, workshops and podcast from there, host debates maybe, so there will be some field action as well. EM: Great! CD: Is that enough detail to make you want to dive in, Eleen? EM: I think we are all super excited at this point. CD: Alright. One last word: EM: Subscribe. CD: It’s free, all you need to do is press that one button on your favourite podcast app and you will get notified every time one episode is released. EM: Don’t forget to share Green Exchange with your friends and colleagues so they can start this adventure with all of us. CD: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, email, fax, telegraph…whatever you need, we’re here to serve and we’ll be back soon with something blue. EM: That’s it? That’s your closing line? Really? CD: Ok, sorry it still needs some work. Let’s just say Ciao for now EM: Yeah…Ciao! CD: Ciao! END
43 minutes | Aug 11, 2017
Mixtape #9: Pirates & the Wind of Change (Chapter 2)
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Episode picture by Takver. Some Rights Reserved. Intro Resources Pirates never went away. From the troubling news stories about pirates attacking ships in Somalia, to dangerous digital hacktivists wreaking havoc online, there is plenty to discover – and even more to question. So, what can we learn from modern piracy? One thing is for sure: nothing in this story is black and white. This mixtape is designed for three specific situations: S1: It’s late and. you can’t sleep. You feel like exploring, taking this idea to the next level. Leaping forward. You wake up and log onto your computer. Go, explore. Make something happen while the world is asleep. S2: While doing some cleanup in your storage room, you found this old computer from the early nineties that you didn’t remember you had. You’re thinking back to was like to work on a computer in the old days, feeling nostalgic and wondering how far the next few decades will take us. S3: You are travelling at night. It’s late, and your thinking about the big things in life, what really matters to you. You decide to never give up on your dreams, and never give up on what you stand for, like a real pirate. Featuring music from: • Mr. Robot, Soundtrack Volume 1 • Mr. Robot, Soundtrack Volume 2 • This is The Law of Life, Farah • Nightcall, Kavinsky • Zones Without People, Oneothrix Point Never • Tick of the Clock, Chromatics • Lady, Chromatics • Feel It All Around, Washed Out Pirate Resources: • Donate for Famine Relief in Somalia [GoFundMe]. • Learn about the Famine: In Somalia with Jarome Jarre [Video] • Pirates Of Somalia – Real Stories [Video]. • Somali pirates tell their side – The Real News [Video]. • Asad ‘Booyah’ Abdulahi: ‘We consider ourselves heroes’ – a Somali pirate speaks [Article]. • Asad ‘Booyah’ Abdulahi: Somali pirate: ‘We’re not murderers… we just attack ships’ [Article]. • How Anonymous Hackers Changed the World [Video Documentary]. • The Story of Aaron Swartz, The Man Who Could Change the World [Video Documentary]. • The eye-patch of the beholder: introduction to entrepreneurship and piracy, Steffen Roth [PDF]. Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: This mixtape is the second chapter of our deep dive into the world of piracy. If you haven’t listened to Chapter One, you may want to start there because there are some important concepts that we will build on moving forward. Today, the focus is a little bit different because – in this mixtape – we will be looking at modern piracy. Piracy on water and on land, or online I should say. What can we, change makers learn from modern piracy? Like with all our mixtapes, music will be the central element of this episode. Perfect for moments of the day were you don’t want to think too much. Here we are in a different mood than with Chapter One. This mixtape is designed for 3 specific situations: Situation 1: It’s late. Very late. you can’t sleep. You’re thinking too much, you’re trying to understand what’s going on, ideas are flowing through your head. You feel strangely motivated about making something happen. A project you’ve had for a while, something you’ve always wanted to work on, in your personal life, or your professional one. You feel like exploring, taking this idea to the next level. Leaping forward. You wake up, get to the computer. Log in. The light of the screen is blinding at first. Better now. Go, explore. Make something happen while the world is asleep. Situation 2: While doing some clean-up in your storage room, you found this old computer from the early nineties that you didn’t remember you had. You now remember it was working when you put it there. So it should still work? no? You decide to get it out of here and turn it on, just like the old days. Just to feel how far we’ve come. You use this time to remember what it was like to work on a computer back then. What did we do with it? Get your smartphone, count the years, realise the pace of innovation. Yes, it’s crazy. Take a minute to think about how YOU approach new technologies and change in general. Are you an early adopter? do you resist? in the average? Use this old computer story to project yourself into the future. Think. Situation 3: You are driving at night. It also works in the train or any kind of public transportation. Maybe you are back from a late meeting, or a dinner with friends you haven’t seen in a while. You’re thinking: “Shit, time passes”. Am I making the most out of it? Maybe, maybe not? How do I feel? What are 3 things I wish I had done last year? How can I make it happen this coming year instead? You look around, catch your own look in the rear-view mirror – or your reflected image on the train window. You decide to never give up on your dreams, and never give up on what you stand for, like a real pirate. 03:39 CD: I have to say this mixtape may be most effective by night, but hey, use it the way you want, and challenge everything. I think we’re ready to dive in. Last time we found a pirate nerd in our own team, “Shiver me Timbers” it’s Eleen Murphy, Producer and co-host at Green Exchange, Yo ho ho! Eleen Murphy [EM]: Ahoy Matey! CD: Ok, we should probably stop talking like old time pirates because we are back in the 2000’s now. EM: Yeah true. CD: So what’s on the menu today? EM: What do you think about when we talk about modern piracy? CD: I directly come to think of Somalia and those fishing boats taking over big tankers and merchant ships. EM: Yes that’s what we are going to talk about. But not only, because piracy doesn’t always happen on water. The word relates to many kinds of activities. Like, did you know that piracy was a word used to describe stealing copyrighted works and information since the 1600’s? CD: Oh really? I always thought digital piracy was called that because the internet was considered like a giant ocean. EM: Yes me too, like the whole “surfing the net…”. Anyway, we’ll be talking about those pirates as well – the ones online who are shaking up the world, making waves I can say. And who we can actually learn a lot from. CD: So today if I understand correctly we will spend some time on Somalia and some time on digital hackers. EM: Yes, about 50/50 CD: Ok, let’s go! 5:20 [Audio Clip] Narrator: It’s a voyage made by thousands of ships a year, passing through the Gulf of Aden. It’s also home to every captain’s nightmare… [Music] 09:12 EM: So pirates never really went away. CD: They changed their look though thank God. EM: …And the Somali pirates are just one example of sea-pirates that operate today – there are others as well. In Somalia – As often with piracy – it was necessity that drove people to raise the black flag. In 1991, the government collapsed and so its territorial waters couldn’t be enforced anymore. CD: I see it coming… EM: This lead to foreign fleets swooping in and trawling Somali waters, stealing their fishing stock and dumping pollutants. CD: Because there was nobody to stop them. EM: Exactly. And this destroyed the livelihoods of the local fishermen. At the same time, China started massively exporting to Europe from the Suez canal, meaning there was thousands and thousands of dollars worth of cargo floating past the Somali shores all the time. CD: So…here was their opportunity to survive, and stand up… EM: Right, and they took it. These people were fishermen first and foremost, but when the situation changed, they pivoted. To be fair, they sort of had to get into this. But they’ve been quick in making the leap towards a very different kind of life. At the beginning, they saw themselves as enforcers of the waters – scaring away the foreign fleets and demanding money from them, which they said was a form of tax for taking their fish and polluting their waters. CD: And then, snow-ball effect, EM: Yes, they went from a small band of raiders who started attacking ships, to the well-run criminal organisation we know today. 10:43 [Music] 12:31 EM: “They don’t care if we starve to death – that is what they prefer. They will never arrest anyone for fishing illegally in Somali waters but will arrest anyone for taking a gun to fight the trawlers”. Those are the words of a local Somalian, Hawa Mohamed Saeed, about the international community at the time. CD: I didn’t know all this, we have been drinking what the media told us, and as usual when we start digging… EM: Yeah. As they say, there are at least two sides to every story. Nothing is black and white. CD: One thing is for sure, some people out there should feel ashamed. 13:09 [Music] 15:22 CD: Anyone in particular we should talk about? EM: One person who really sticks out, who’s a bit of a celebrity actually, is Abdullahi Abshir – often called Boyah. Boyah was one of the first to turn to piracy, and was a a bit of a pioneer – he showed others the true potential of piracy and became the chairman of the 500 pirates operating in the region. He says he’s hijacked more than 25 ships. CD: Do people call him Boyah because everytime he was coming back from battle with cargo and hostages everyone would say “Booyaa”? EM: Yeah probably, thank you for this very relevant comment… CD: Sorry.. EM: Booya was a lobster diver, who watched the lobster population disappear because of the foreign ships. So, with a few others, he captured three fishing vessels, kept their catch and ransomed the crew. When other fishermen saw his success, they began to follow. CD: Where does your lobster come from? Have you checked? So he was a brave man… EM: Also a quick adapter – he learned to go with the flow. At some point – around 1997, the foreign fishing fleets started getting protection from local warlords. CD: Oh God, so now there are mercenaries involved in protecting the big boys? EM: Yes, and those ships became really too dangerous to target. So Boyah and his men started going after commercial shipping vessels instead. CD: Pivoting again. 16:48 [Audio Clip] [Music] 18:34 CD: Okay so they put their hands on cash, goods, cargo? What do they do with it? EM: The money they took was shared with everyone. Half went to the attackers, a third to investors. The rest went to anyone involved – interpreters who dealt with the hostages, the guards. And 15% always went to the poor and disabled of the community. CD: Robin Hood style. EM: He’s been called that, yeah. The local communities did prosper thanks to the pirates. They were often given support, sanctuary, even government help. But if you can imagine, all these young men who come from poor backgrounds, suddenly have access to loads of cash and support…things of course went a bit wrong. 19:13 [Music] 22:38 EM: When all this started to turn into a big criminal organisation, Boyah started to realise their support was dwindling. Around 2008, the communities began to turn on them and demand that they stop. Boyah called for a cease-fire. They were a few of them ready to quit – CD: Quit? EM: With conditions. If the local leaders found jobs for their young underlings and help the pirates form a coast guard to protect Somalia from illegal fishing and dumping… CD: Right EM: Boyah often says that he knows what they’re doing is wrong. It looks like they wanted to find a way out if possible… 23:16 [Music] 24:40 CD: So…did they ever find that way out? What’s happening there right now? EM: Well, after their peak in 2012, they almost stopped completely because commercial ships started carrying armed guards. There was also an international anti-piracy fleet, which included a NATO-led component, and an European Union one as well. CD: There you go, thank you all for addressing the root cause. EM: Right. But those new resources have been busy the last few years because of the migrant crisis – and the pirate attacks have started up again this year. CD: Oh really? EM: Yeah, see, one of the main issues with the response is that they conflate piracy with terrorism, and that this counter-piracy action doesn’t really address the origins, motives, and realities of Somali pirates. [Audio Clip] Interviewer: So, this must cost hundreds of millions of dollars to have these navel ships going up and down the African coast – what’s the alternative to this? Interviewee: Well, it’d be a much better use of the money if they would actually try to prop up Somalia’s government or help the country create a government that could police it’s own coastline. I mean, they’re not catching very many pirates. As we mentioned, there was a shootout in which some hostages were actually killed. They’d be a lot better off putting that money – Interviewer: Or make a deal with the pirates! Just say, “why don’t we just pay the pirates an annual fee to stay home?” Interviewee: That would be a lot more efficient. Interviewer: There must be more imaginative solutions that would actually do something to develop Somalia? Interviewee: People aren’t that interested in the fundamental problems of Somalia. Piracy gets a lot of headlines, and Al Qaeda activity in Somalia gets a lot of headlines, but no one really talks about spending money on trying to create a system of government that can solve all these problems, or let Somalia solve their own problems. 26:22 EM: Somalia has been struggling with civil war, poverty and violence for decades at this stage. And the problem hasn’t gone away – locals are blaming their government in the Puntland region for granting foreigners permits to fish in Somali waters. So we’re back to square one. CD: Sh*t they got it rough in Somalia, also with no rain in two years and the famine, they are one of those regions that really need help. We put a link on the episode page if you feel like sending a few euros to help a family, they are some very direct channels to those people now, without all the typical intermediaries that we don’t really like to go through. EM: Yes it’s very complex in this region. 22:06 [Music] 29:16 CD: Eleen, you’ve changed my whole perspective on the Somalian piracy case. Thank you. EM: You’re welcome. CD: Should we now move on to the world of digital piracy. That’s an interesting space as well… EM: Yes and here there is a lot going on so we are just going to look at a few big picture learning lessons. I thought we would take the hacker group Anonymous as an example – which is probably the most famous out there. But there are many others. CD: Good idea, they are the ones whose symbol is the iconic Guy Fawkes mask right? Oversized smile, moustache, red cheeks. EM: They’re one of the most powerful and decentralized movements in the digital world. A lot of people see them as heroes in the face of things like government oppression for instance. CD: Yes, their story is fascinating and in the episode notes you’ll find a couple of documentaries and resources for you to get the whole picture if you want to hear more about them, I think it’s worth it. EM: It’s actually amazing how big and powerful they’ve become considering they have no leader or directives though. CD: No leader or directive you’re saying? EM: Yes, and that’s our first learning lesson from digital pirates – be a starfish. CD: Be a starfish? EM: Yes! 30:28 [Music] 33:04 EM: So, in a formal organisation, you could see there’s a head at the top and if you kill that, the organisation is dead. But if it’s like a starfish…you can kill one arm and it just keeps going and the arm will eventually grow back. So the point is that decentralizing power can make you more effective and resilient. CD: It’s very inspiring to see that a growing number of organisations manage to operate like this now. The trick is really how to create that movement in the first place. Getting the momentum going. EM: Yes and there is another dimension to this. Which is the second tip I would like to bring to the table. We seem to operate better in small flexible groups. This way you’re more agile, fast and flexible. Like, on the outside, Anonymous looks like one huge, chaotic organisation. But members can peel off into smaller channels and work together on a specific target. Not everyone has to know everything, which saves time and keeps things flowing. CD: Yes and this way to operate has made its way into many organisations in the private sector, especially large start-ups with critical mass of employees or NGO movements as well. Some public sector organisations are also experimenting with this management structure. How about you? Did you think about all this for your own project? 34:25 [Music] 36:58 EM: I think one of the biggest keys to their success is how they outsource not just talent but ideas as well. Anonymous is basically a large pool of people with different skills. Those people will come along and see how they can help and jump in. People also jump in and share their ideas for a campaign and if others are interested, it happens. So that gives Anonymous a huge amount of resources to draw from, and keeps their fingers in all sorts of pies. CD: Ah, I didn’t know this expression. Do you make pies in Ireland? EM: We sometimes do. CD: We also see this trend growing in a number of organisations. EM: …Making pies? CD: No, I mean open innovation schemes. You bring in your innovation pipeline players from the outside world, partners, customers even, it should be quite inclusive. EM: Let’s be clear, it does not mean that everything done by anonymous will be good. That’s the price of being a starfish. You have to live with the idea that not everything will be perfect. CD: What else can learn from Anonymous? EM: Don’t get comfortable. When it comes to the online world, you really need to stay sharp and ahead of the curve, because there are always weak points and pitfalls that someone’s just waiting to exploit. CD: That’s right, keep on your toes. EM: Yeah, and you can expand that idea. We shouldn’t get comfortable with how our lives are right now either. We can fall into habits, learn to ignore or put up with things that just aren’t right… CD: There’s always opportunities for us to challenge the status quo, find new ways to work, new ways to interact as a society. EM: Exactly. There is one thing, that makes Anonymous, and sea pirates so dangerous and threatening – putting violence aside: They demonstrate different ways of doing things. Different ways to work, different ways to protect their communities, different ways to live – both online and offline. CD: Right. Their existence says a lot about our societies and our failures (economic inequality & exploitation, imbalance of power & right of access to information). EM: Our fascination with piracy also says a lot about us as well – our love of freedom, adventure, and the rebellious spirit of piracy. Probably because we need more of it in our daily lives. CD: That’s a good way to conclude, thank you for all those insights Eleen, this was fascinating. EM: My pleasure! CD: And you? How do YOU feel about piracy? What can you incorporate into your day-to-day? Let us know what you’re up to. email@example.com twitter, Instagram facebook. You know where to find us. We’ll be back soon with more music, sounds, knowledge, inspiration, entertainment, keep up the good work in the meantime! 39:49 [Music] END
39 minutes | Jul 31, 2017
Mixtape #8: Pirates & the Wind of Change (Chapter 1)
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Intro Resources Listen up ye landlubbers! We’re taking you on an adventure…back to the golden age of Piracy. Yes, piracy – because pirates helped shape the world as we know it today, and there is much we can learn from them. This is a story of innovation, rebellion against tyranny, adventure on the high seas, and breaking the rules to make a fairer world. Jump on board and let us take you there… This mixtape is designed for three specific situations: S1: Your working on something big, something that blow everything else out of the water. Or maybe you’re preparing for the most important interview of your life. This will get you in the mood. S2: You need a really fun, adventurous escape moment. Let your imagination take over. S3: Taking the dog for a walk? Bored? Let us bring some action and excitement into the moment. Featuring music from: • Colossal Trailer Music. • Assassin’s Creed IV : Black Flag Soundtrack by Brian Tyler. Ubisoft. • Epic Orchestra Music Compilation Vol. 7 – Wondrous Adventure & Fantasy Edition. • Shanties & Songs of the Sea by Johnny Collins. • Farewell and Adieu by Finnian McGurk. Pirate Resources: • Ching Shih: The Chinese Female Pirate Who Commanded 80,000 Outlaws [Article] • Actual Pirate Code [Article]. • An-arrgh-chy: The Law and Economics of Pirate Organization – Peter T. Leeson [PDF]. Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Ahoy sailor! Today we take a deep dive into the world of piracy. Piracy? Are you kidding me? What does this have to do with sustainability? aren’t we supposed to talk about social and environmental change? Isn’t this Green Exchange? – Talk shows for change makers? Yes it is. Calm down. Let me explain. Pirates are not what we think they are. Yes they were probably a bit [Laughter sound] and sometimes even a little bit [Maniacal laughter sound]. But they have played a very important role in periods of history that were both tumultuous and critical. And they keep influencing our world every day. They just don’t operate on water anymore. For most at least. This mixtape comes in two chapters. Chapter 1 today will be about pirates of the old times, Chapter 2 -coming soon – about modern pirates, from sea pirates in Somalia to computer hackers and other forms of piracy we know today. Sailor, it’s time to ask yourself. What can we learn from pirates throughout history? As always with our mixtapes, music is what will transport us into this adventure. And I have to say: the sounds we will be playing today are of the epic kind. To be more precise, this mixtape is designed for 3 specific situations: Situation 1: You are on a big piece of work, writing the report of your life. Or maybe you are preparing for an important meeting, or your dream job interview – you want to make this a turning point in your life – and why not – in history. At your service, this music will get you in the mood. Situation 2: You need an escape moment – How about training your imagination? How about reinventing your life in different times? What would you look like in 1750 for instance? Where do you work, what do you do in the morning? Where do you go on vacation? Haha – and how about your friends and colleagues? imagine meeting them up the in 1750? “jack… I didn’t know you were a pirate!” [Jack Sparrow audio clip] Situation 3: You are going on a hunt. Well actually you’re just going to pick up mushrooms on a Sunday. Well… actually you are just going to walk the dog… See? how boring is this. Bring some action into your moment. Again, use your imagination. With this mixtape, you are going to run in between the trees – duck the arrows that evil forces are throwing at you, shut down a fire, save a dear from drowning in the river, help a baby fox find his mother, clean up all the plastic littering, and come back home with a bag full of mushrooms for dinner. Wow, what a ride Yes, we push you to performance that’s what we do at Green Exchange! Be careful, this music may make you feel like a hero. Well wait, you are a hero, you may just not know it yet? To make this mixtape as relevant and realistic as possible, I need help from someone who is a real pirate nerd. Yes, those people exist. Pirate nerds. Let me tell you, those guys are as valuable as researchers and historians even. And they are most likely funnier to talk to. So let me look at my notes… who do we have … let’s see? Eleen Murphy [EM]: Ahoy! CD: Hey Eleen? I didn’t know you were joining, great, so I was looking for our pirate nerd to help me on this mixtape – yes, that’s me! CD: What? You a pirate nerd? EM: Oh yeah… CD: Ah now I understand why this mixtape got on the editorial calendar… EM:Haha, my evil plan! CD: Well ok, ….Help me understand, how pirate nerdy are you? EM: Well, let’s see…I wrote my school dissertation on pirates, there were posters all over my room, I’ve watched every type of treasure island adaptation out there, know all the movies and video games about pirates…and my cat is called “Calico Jack” CD: Okay okay I think you qualify. I can sense the excitement. A dream come true at Green Exchange today ladies and gentlemen – Let’s talk piracy with Eleen Murphy EM: Haha! 05:24 CD: Okay what do we start with? EM:A sea shanty. CD: What’s that? A type of ice cream? EM: No, it’s basically a maritime work song. CD: Ah okay, I see, so like a work song, you mean for labour work on the ship? EM: Yes, It’ll get us in the mood, and then we’ll start decrypting what we, change makers can learn from pirates. CD: Let’s go, from now on I let you hold the ship’s wheel Eleen, Just don’t make us sea sick, that’s all I’m asking EM: Keep looking at the horizon. CD: Alright… [Music] CD: Wow. EM: So first, let’s clarify what kind of pirates we should be talking about, piracy is a vast area. CD: Ok, you tell me. Who can we learn from? EM: Ok I’ll start from scratch, there are lots of different types of people called pirates, which makes it confusing. It’s messy, but generally when we talk about pirates we think of the “OG” pirates. CD: The OG pirates? Can you explain? EM: Basically those who didn’t work on behalf of any country, like Blackbeard – they roamed the seas in search of treasure. They were enemy of every state… CD: Okay, so bad guys on a ship, drinking, raping, stealing and treasure hunting. Is that who we need to learn from? EM: See? that’s the common perception…The golden age of piracy was a time of brutal oppression and you know we had those big colonial powers trying to take over the world. Pirates were often those who escaped this oppression. CD: Ah I see. EM: So, like, many pirates were escaped slaves, who would have had no other means of making a living. Blackbeard’s crew is thought to be made up of 60% black people – freed slaves mostly. CD: Oh that’s why the crews were always very diverse. EM: Yes, Pirates formed their own societies, and went against this status quo. CD: Ah that sounds friendlier to my ear. So they were change makers? EM: You can say so… 09:59 [Music] 12:42 EM: Morality, law and justice play a big part in this topic. It’s argued that pirate societies were the most egalitarian societies of their time, bringing together multi-ethnic crews, allowing a form of gay marriage. CD: Haha nice! EM: Yeah! They also had a strict moral and ethical code – which isn’t what we usually think of, right? They even had healthcare system. CD: A healthcare system? with the little card and your photo on it? EM: That’s right CD: How was it called? Williamacare? How about that. EM: And democracy – with each man having a vote. They worked as a team, each sailor being part of a bigger whole. CD: Wow, I never saw it like that this is fascinating . EM: All this was a direct backlash to the tyrannical rule on merchant ships. And we need to put this in perspective: Pirates had separation of the powers and democratic “government” aboard their ships at least one century before France. CD: Who brought it on in 1789. [Music] 16:17 CD: Eleen, I am so into this, the music and everything, I feel like you and me are on a ship called “the Black Sheep” navigating the tumultuous seas of podcasting. Our listeners are probably willing to join our quest at this point! What route should we occupy? EM: Well, that’s one interesting thing we can learn from OG pirates actually. They strategically occupied the waterways that formed major trading routes. CD: Oh – so they were not far out in the ocean? EM: No, they were typical occupying the Bahamas for instance because that’s were all merchant ships going to Spain were passing by. They were really good at finding the strategic spot. Rather than challenging their targets head on, pirates surprise and attack their enemies at their weakest points, giving them no time to react. CD: Okay so – lesson learnt: Take a strategic position in the space you want to occupy. Be ready for when opportunities show up. EM: And fire!!!!!!! Fireeeee! Fireeeeee!!!!! CD: Wow, I never saw you so excited Eleen… [Music] 20:53 CD: Let’s talk about Captains’ powers, shall we? EM: Unlike merchant vessels, on pirate ships, captains weren’t able to secure special privileges for themselves at their crews’ expense. Their lodging, provisions, and even pay were nearly the same as everyone else. CD: They had their own cabin though. No? EM: Yes but at any time, crew members were free to come in unannounced and yell at the captain if they were doing a bad job. Your privileges were quite limited and if you were not a good leader, things could rapidly change. CD: interesting idea. So a pretty flat organisation EM: Yes. [Music] 25:52 EM: You’re going to like this, I brought with me a few common rules from the world of piracy: CD: Tell me. EM: Lights out at 8pm CD: What? no drinking and partying every night? EM: Lights out at 8pm I said! CD: Copy that… EM: No gambling. Keep your weapons ready for battle. No stealing …. CD: Wait a sec… EM: From other pirates, I mean. CD: Ah right EM: All disputes are settled on land, with pistols. And… wait for it….Musicians have Sundays off. CD: Wow – interesting. But I have this image of them drinking and partying on some island. EM: After big victories maybe, they have some down time. [Audio Clip of Jack Sparrow] 27:43 CD: Story of the day: Is there a pirate that stood out in your research? EM: Yes definitely. Do you know the story of Ching Shih? CD: That sounds Chinese EM: it’s , it’s a female Chinese Pirate that has been called the most successful pirate in history. CD: Oh yea? More than Blackbeard? EM: Well to give you an idea Blac k beard was leading 4 boats and 300 men – at his peak. CD: Okay…That was peak Blackbeird. What was peak Ching Shih? EM: 1800 pirate ships and an estimated 80,000 men. CD: What? 80,000? Sorry to ask but How did a female pirate in China in the 1800s rise to that level of power? EM: Well it’s a long story but I’ll make it short. She was ex-sex worker, and….. CD: A sex-worker…ah I see. EM: Married to Cheng I (or Cheng one, I’m not sure how to say it), who was commanding the red flag fleet of pirates. It was big fleet already, his main achievement was to unite many rival fleets under the same flag. And he married her in 1801. The thing is: She demanded equal control of the fleet as a condition for her marriage. CD: Wow. EM: She was actively participating in all piracy activities, like a few women in history. When he died, she took over and since then built a legacy that completely over shadowed the one of her husband. CD: How did she do this? EM: Well, Back when she was a sex worker she was hanging out with very influential people and business men. And some say she learnt a lot about the financials and politics at this point – and there is evidence that she was very savvy. She also maintained a very strict code of conduct across the fleet. CD: Right. I suppose you don’t carry on at that level if you’re a clown. What happened to her? EM: The fleet was undefeated for 3 years, they were really dominating that period. And in 1810, Ching Shih could finally retire by accepting an offer of amnesty from the Chinese government. CD: Wait? What? She retired? that’s it? EM: Politics, there was a lot of tension, another pirate fleet called the black flag fleet recently surrendered, and she felt she was going to lose control. So it looks like she made a wise decision given the context. She died 34 years later at age 69. CD: In a retirement home? EM: More or less, haha.! CD: But this is boring, Eleen… EM: Ah but you have to put this into context. And she had tremendous influence over Chinese popular culture. CD: Wow, that’s an unexpected ending for that kind of profile. EM: Yeah I don’t think retirement happened very often. She was probably the only one to do so. [Music] 32:07 CD: Let’s throw the anchor Eleen, It’s time to end this first chapter about piracy. We learnt a few lessons, what can we conclude? EM: Well I think one main point – is: it’s not about breaking all the rules – it’s about making better ones. We can’t celebrate everything that pirates stood for (because yes there was a lot of murder and violence), but we should definitely follow their example of trying to make a better, more equal world & be brave enough to stand against the big tyrannical powers of today. CD: I don’t know what you’re talking about Eleen. EM: I think Fairness & Cooperation was Key to their Success? What helped them be successful was that everyone on board had a vested interest in their success, and all bounty was shared equally. This is a good lesson for us to keep in mind (cooperatives, shared spaces, workplace as a democracy, etc). There is more of course but I think we went through the most interesting points. CD: Yes that was great, that’s all we have time for today, but don’t miss chapter 2 were we’re going to dive into modern piracy and see if there anything we can learn from. Eleen I think you’ll be our pirate guide for next chapter as well EM: Yarrrr! CD: …Okay, well get some rest in the meantime. We hope you enjoyed this mixtape, we’ll be back soon for more, we’ll let you go occupy the waters of change until next time, ciao! END
13 minutes | Jul 23, 2017
Earth Calling #7: Waste Pickers VS. Trash Giants – A Hero’s Fight For Justice
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Intro Planet Earth has been a little too quiet lately. Maybe this story is what she needs to hear. It’s about Nohra Padilla – a brave and dedicated fighter for social and environmental justice. She spent her life working to change the fate of waste pickers in her city of Bogotá, Colombia. And around the world. Nohra Padilla – Goldman Prize [Article]. Global Alliance for Waste Pickers [Website]. Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Hey I’m worried Eleen Murphy [EM]: About what? CD: Planet Earth, she hasn’t called in 3 weeks. Something is wrong. Where is she? EM: Well obviously she’s here, we’re standing on her as we talk. CD: You think our stories are too extreme? EM: Our stories are appropriate I think, they’re always based on positive change, I don’t think that’s the problem. CD: Mmh. EM: I’m sure she’s fine. She might just be busy watching TED videos. CD: I should try to call her. Just to check in, it’s weird EM: Yeah, give her a call… CD: Thing is I don’t know how to dial her number, there is no country code EM: have you tried? CD: No … Okay… I am going to give it a shot. straight numbers no country code. Do we have a story to tell her? EM: Yes, let me think, oh, you can tell her the story of Nohra Padilla. It’s a good one. Here it is. I’m sure she’ll love listening to it, and appreciate the gesture. CD: Let’s see… Hey Eleen – Thanks for being the best, You always have good advice. [VOICE MAIL]: “Please leave a message for “Planet Earth” after the beep”. CD: Hey… it’s Camille…. I’m worried, you haven’t called in three weeks so I thought I would check in, you don’t answer my text messages, is there anything wrong? Actually I even have a story I want to tell you. It’s a bit weird to do this via voicemail but this way you can listen to it whenever you want. I hope you like it. Okay… let me get into the storytelling mood… It’s the story of a little girl from Bogota called Nohra. She is 7 years old. Her family came to the capital after fleeing violence in the rural areas of the country. Now they spend most of their time picking up garbage at the foot of this huge municipal landfill where tons and tons of waste are dumped every day. That’s how they make a living. Actually they are not picking up garbage – that’s not how they see it. They are treasure hunting. They sift through mountains of trash looking for the most valuable materials they can find. Either for themselves, or to sell. There are not the only ones of course. Thousands of people in extreme poverty are treasure hunting as well. It’s a tough job, physically, mentally, it’s dangerous, and it provides very little money at the end of the month. One day, the local government prohibited the access to the landfill. No treasure hunting anymore. So people started taking waste picking to the streets. And that brought other kinds of problems. Daily discrimination was one of them. The community of waste pickers was marginalised to the point where it became forbidden to “pick up trash” as they said. We are talking about the livelihood of tens of thousands people in the city that was taken away by this law. At this point the little Nohra had grown up. We are in 1991. Nohra had now become a well respected waste picker. She had developed an extensive knowledge of material identification, was able to organise and optimise operations, and she had a solid hard-working reputation. Most importantly, she had a dream. In her dream, informal waste pickers became recognised as environmental stewards. They were paid correct wages by the city. They were organised, respected. Social justice. In her dream, waste pickers were a true competitive force against the trash multinationals who promote infrastructure intensive solutions that are nothing else than expensive and centralised power structures. She had a dream. And she knew that everything is possible. So in 1991, Nohra and her team started organising the waste pickers in cooperatives. That was a huge piece of work. They started from nothing. They had to get people educated, to recognise their own value, they had to organise processes, teams, secure space, and go through all the legal matters that would give the cooperatives a legal right to operate. They had to be able to bid for governmental contracts. No one could believe they were taking this on. Little by little, they were getting ready, and once they started going after those contracts, they had to face other kinds of problems. They were being robbed, they were humiliated as well. Nohra was receiving death threats so she requested State protection – which was denied. All this was a sign that they were starting to drive real change in the system. The trash multinationals could see the storm coming. But it was a long long battle. We sometimes feel good things can happen overnight but they usually don’t. We are now in 2013 – 22 years after the first efforts to organise cooperatives. 22 years. That year, Nohra and the cooperatives won a landmark court battle. As a result of this victory in court, Bogotá Mayor Gustavo Petro issued a decree mandating recycling throughout the city, stating that recyclers are to be paid for their services and establishing a system whereby recyclers can sort through material before it goes to a landfill. In other words, the once informal waste pickers became official personnel of sanitation of the city. As you can imagine, it was a ground breaking victory. They did build a system that can handle, sort and process 1500 tons of waste per day. Grassroot baby. Through this work Nohra created the perfect bridge between social justice and environmental goals. Waste pickers typically lived in extreme poverty with little to no employment rights. But in recent years many of them have seen their earnings double or triple. And everyone is now aware of the role they play for the city. Nohra Padilla created a model. She showed it is possible. And She now represents the country’s recyclers association – and beyond her dream coming true in her home country… Nohra’s model is inspiring communities of waste pickers all around the world. Her international union counts more than 1million and a half waste pickers from 5 continents. 1 million and a half. The little seven year-old girl learning waste picking at the foot of the Bogota landfill turned into an international hero. I like this story very much. Another one showing everything is possible as you told me the other day. Okay well, that’s it, I hope everything is ok and that you’ll call back soon. We miss talking to you. EM: She’s going to like this. CD: Yes, I hope so. Maybe we are approaching this all wrong… EM: What do you mean? CD: Maybe we are not giving her exactly what she needs. EM: Ah, I wouldn’t worry too much about all this. Hey we’re late, we need to get going… END CD: Where to? EM: We have the kick-off meeting for the new series about Oceans! CD: Ah that’s right. Talking about the Blue Planet… I’m coming.
18 minutes | Jul 16, 2017
Circular Economy In Practice #7: Cooperate or Die
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Picture by MUSE – Science Museum of Trento in cooperation with Wikimedia Italia. Intro Resources The ability to cooperate brought us to where we are today, and it’s what will help us change the world. Without cooperation, the Circular Economy will not be possible. So how will this work, practically? And what are the key principles of cooperation that we can start applying everywhere we go? In this episode, we interview Annika Rosing, head of department at the Nordic Council of Ministers and discuss the role that international cooperation can play in driving sustainable production and consumption, as well the challenges and opportunities we face along the way. • James Altucher Ep. 216: Yuval Noah Harari – The Next Step in Our Evolution | Audio | • Good Reads Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari [Book] | Website | MADE POSSIBLE BY: The Nordic Council is the official body for formal inter-parliamentary co-operation. Formed in 1952, it has 87 members from Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Åland. Thank you to our media partners: Back to series page Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: July has definitely started circular at Green Exchange, and we’re still hungry. Today we talk about cooperation. Not that kind of cooperation… More like voluntary cooperation, collaboration, working together. We touched on this earlier in the series, but I think it’s time to dig deeper and work out some guidelines. You’re listening to GREEN EXCHANGE, Circular Economy in Practice episode seven: Cooperate or Die. Eleen Murphy [EM]: Wow, really? Cooperate or die? CD: Wow, who is this? EM: Surprise! CD: Eleen! good to have you, I like it that you are coming on the show more often. EM: You need some help, I can sense it /I thought you’d appreciate the company. CD: Yes, I do. EM: So…you were saying… cooperate or die? CD: Let me explain… Of all species, the homo sapiens became the most powerful on the Planet. Have you ever thought about that EM: The most powerful. Like even over cockroaches? CD: Yeah, I can prove it. The international Union for Conservation of nature maintains a red list of endangered species and we, humans are ranking last on that list. So what does that mean? EM: We rule the Planet? CD: We dominate baby! EM: That’s right! CD: Don’t mess with us, you dolphins. EM: Yeah, not sure how proud we should be about all that. CD: You’re right, let’s calm down and think about this. It’s a good thing to meditate from the golf course. EM: Yeah, in between two swings… CD: Look around and ask yourself, how did we get to that level of domination of our environment? EM: Well I’m interested actually, how on earth did we get this pathetic??? CD: Experts are still busy agreeing on the details but there are a few conclusions we can draw. Should I tell you the story? EM: Well, that’s what we’re here for. 02:42 CD: There is a fascinating man called Yuval Noah Harari. EM: Yuval Noah Harari? CD: Right. And he writes fascinating books. One of them is called “Sapiens”. It explains how the homo sapiens came to dominate other species, to end up where we are today. Homo sapiens go way back. Actually it’s the most recent evolution of the genus Homo. But still, we are talking about more than 150,000 years ago. You were not born Eleen. EM: Yeah you might be right about that… CD: So let’s rewind to 150 000 years ago: There is archaeological evidence of homo sapiens back then, their brains were the same size as we have today, even a bit larger. EM: Yeah they were probably way smarter. CD: We had a lot more hair though, overall. EM: Moving on… CD: Right. At this point we were clustered in East Africa, and we were living at the same time as other human species such as Neanderthals or the homo erectus. Basically co-habiting. Nothing fancy happened. Picking berries, eating mushrooms, normal life with the crew. Until 70,000 years ago. This is when we began to observe a real rise to power. The homo sapiens started taking over. It starved to extinction all the other species around, EM: Wow. CD: We started dominating everyone, including our bro the homo rectus that had been around for over a million and a half years. Can you imagine? EM: A million and a half??? How did that happen!? CD: Well, Harari talks about an evolutionary flash, a superpower that was given to the homo sapiens by evolution – and that superpower was… EM: Come on, don’t drag it out… CD: Can we get a drum roll? Right. So this super power was: The ability to cooperate in very large numbers. 05:23 EM: Cooperation CD: Other species could cooperate as well, but only up to a few dozens, like animals do. We started cooperating in hundreds, and then thousands, millions. Today if you think about it we cooperate in billions. EM: Oh, that’s true. CD: So How did this become possible? Because we don’t have an instinct for cooperating on a large scale, EM: Right, for sure. CD: This ability to cooperate had to be based on imagination. Harari says that we can cooperate with large numbers of strangers only if we believe in the same fictional stories. Fictional stories such as, “this tribe is trying to take our land, we should kick their ass”. Or, “this is the religion that will give you peace and protection, follow it and pray to this God, not to that one”. “This is the man to vote for, because he is going to protect us from this happening. “ EM: That sounds familiar. CD: Right? or stories such as “Circular Economy is the next mega trend and we need to make it happen before we run out of resources”. EM: This is super interesting. CD: Right? it’s this ability to follow a same vision and to cooperate around it that gave us the chance to dominate on a large scale. I will stop here on the evolution part and the stories around it because i would really like you to read that book or listen to Harari – his work is fascinating and you’re probably going to understand many things about the world we live in – and about yourself as well. EM: All right, I can’t wait to check this out! CD: We put a few links on the episode page. So the point you’re trying to make here is that cooperation is at the core of how we operate as humans. And we tend to forget how important it is. EM: Cooperate or Die, now I get it. COOPERATION IS MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN WAR CD: Now back to circular economy, I talked to someone who works with cooperation everyday. Her name is Annika Rosing, She is heading a department at the Nordic Council of Ministers, the Nordic cooperation, and together we discussed the role that international cooperation can play in helping drive sustainable production and consumption. Countries working together towards a Circular Economy, challenges and opportunities. EM: Let’s have a listen! 08:19 CD: Annika, I pushed the record button, now is the official start of the interview, you cannot escape anymore. [Laughter] CD: Ok, just to set the stage before we dive in, Nordic countries consume way too many resources, way too many planets – and we have only one. Annika Rosing [AR]: Yeah CD: Fortunately, the Nordic Council of Ministers is on the case. Or? [AR]: We have a large footprint and we need to find way to reach a more sustainable production and consumption. And I think all the Nordic countries agree that this is one of the challenges for the Nordic countries. CD: Okay, good so Sustainable Production & Consumption is and important focus point in the Nordics – SDG 12 for the SDG nerds out there. So zooming into cooperation now: Why do Nordic Countries cooperate? [AR]: I think it’s several different things. One is the geography: we’re close, or sort of close, and we’re in the outskirts of Europe. Secondly, we are all five very small countries in a global context. And thirdly, we have a similar welfare system and a similar system when it comes to taxation, etc. So I think it’s many different things that enables us to work together, but it’s important to mention that we have been constantly at war with each other for many hundreds of years. I think the last war was in the end of the 1700’s. So we have a history of constantly fighting with each other, and then finally after hundreds of years realising that it’s much better for all of us if we cooperate. CD: Oh yeah? Cooperation is more productive than war? We should tweet this to a few people, no? [AR]: [Laughing] No… CD: Okay so the factors you mentioned are geography, a common welfare and taxation system, neighbouring cultures, and the fact that you are small countries that can not always face globalisation alone. [AR]: There also has to be a good idea – a reason, a win-win context – for strong cooperation to start. CD: Are you going to take Scotland if they break free from the UK? AR: [Laughing]. INTERNATIONAL AND EXPORT MARKETS – COMPETITION IS HOLDING THE NORDICS BACK 10:57 CD: Ok moving on…I am going to play the devil’s advocate for a minute – Aren’t Nordic countries competing with each other on global markets? Isn’t it a little bit like “we cooperate in theory, we smile together to the media but I want the deal with the Chinese”? [AR]: So when it comes to export initiatives, I think, since the Nordic countries are so small, they have a much stronger reason to work together than not work together. But the concept that we are competing with each other is actually an obstacle in my point of view. Going out on an international market together is something that is going to benefit all countries. CD: Do we see that kind of cooperation on export markets yet? [AR]: This is my personal comment: I don’t think we’re really there yet, but hopefully soon! CD: So now, tell me how the cooperation works in practice, in terms of governance, maybe with the example of sustainable development and SDG 12…What’s the process like? [AR]: The Nordic Council of Ministers is a voluntary cooperation between the Nordic countries, and it’s actually not one minister council, it’s actually eleven. All decisions are taken in consensus, and when it comes to sustainable development, the Nordic ministers for Nordic Cooperation are responsible for that, because it’s something that has to be done by all ministerial councils, all the other ten. And they have decided that we should put forward, within our Nordic Strategy for Sustainable development, a program for supporting the countries in implementing the 2030 Agenda. And then we have this not very slow, but maybe complicated hearing process with all the other ministerial councils. So we now have a suggestion for a program that will be decided by the Minister for Nordic Cooperation in September. And when that’s decided, we have budget for a three year period and then we’ll go along with starting up the program. And then all the different sectors are on board. CD: Okay so what I take from this: Decisions by consensus, you make program proposals in line with a vision, you go through a hearing process, make sure everyone is in line, maybe a bit of back and forth but once the program is approved it is solid because everyone is on board. That’s the beauty of decisions by consensus, no? 13:48 [AR]: Yeah. The good thing with the consensus decision is that you have everyone on board saying, “Alright, this is what we’re going to do”. The negative thing with consensus is that it tends to be the countries that are the least ambitions are the ones that are setting the agenda, if you know what I mean. It’s a solid program, but it’s not as ambitious as it could have been. CD: Yes that sounds familiar. So the programs are never really as ambitious as if it was one ambitious country operating alone of course. Annika we are going to talk more about cooperation at Green Exchange with a case study or two in the weeks to come, thank you for passing by and best of luck with SDG 12, you know we’ll be paying attention. You’re welcome back anytime. [AR]: Yes, absolutely. Thank you! 14:48 EM: Okay, that was interesting. CD: Yeah, I think so! EM: And we should also remember that principles of cooperation apply not only to that kind of international cooperation but also to cross sector cooperation – for example, how can the textile sector cooperate with the fishing sector? CD: Spoiler alert. Something is coming on that front! EM: Nice plug right? CD: Yeah. But you’re right, all types of cooperation are important – cross stakeholder groups, cross sector, North South etc. There is always some value in cooperation models. EM: [To audience] Yeah guys, remember: that this is what got us to where we are today. CD: You know we’ve talked about possibly featuring this case study from the Dutch circular economy roadmap. The one about the Green Deals. EM: Yes I do. CD: I think we should… It will show a very practical example of how cooperation can make miracles happen. EM: Yes let’s talk about how we can do that. I know you have something cooking anyway around the ambitious Dutch circular Economy roadmap. CD: Correct, to be continued… We should thank NCM for making this episode possible, EM: Thank you. CD: They are very active right now on the front of Sustainable Production and Consumption and I’m looking forward to digging into their upcoming strategies and roadmaps – and being constructively critical. EM: Constructively critical? CD: Although sometimes I like to be just critical. EM: Oh do tell me more… CD: Well, just criticising you know? Sending negative comments, negative energy… EM: Is that right? CD: Pointing fingers, judging, you see what I mean? Sometimes without really understanding. Feels really good. EM: Yeah, I should try that one day. Let off some steam… CD: And it’s quite easy actually. EM: So you receive an idea, or read a report, or hear something… CD: Yes, and you directly start to criticise, without any context. It’s journalism, after all. EM: Alright I’ll keep that in mind. Great tip. CD: You’re welcome. Eleen, thanks for today, should we plug anything? EM: Yes! As usual, leave us a rating and comment on your podcast app, get your friends and colleagues to subscribe – the more noise you make, the more people we can reach. Send us an email, we answer them all. CD: Great, Can I close now? EM: Go for it… CD: We’ll be back soon, with more green knowledge, inspiration and entertainment, keep up the good work in the meantime! END
28 minutes | Jul 9, 2017
Circular Economy In Practice #6: Time Travel to 2050 – What will the future look like exactly?
Produced by Camille Duran / Published by Eleen Murphy / Senior Editors Eleen Murphy & Camille Duran / Music Credits: License by Ins. Green White Space. Intro Resources Shaping our future – well, it won’t happen if we just sit around and imagine it, will it? No, we need a clear picture of exactly where we’re going in order to make the right decisions and take the right path to get there. And how do we do that? With a special technique called Backcasting: defining a desirable future and then working backwards to identify the steps that we need to take for that future to become true. Last month, we took our time machine to the World Circular Economy Forum in Helsinki and asked 8 very brave volunteers to take a trip to 2050 and report back on what they found. In this episode we share the highlights from the trip and discuss in detail what we learned. Self cleaning clothes, soil health, vegetarianism, and yes – it looks like incineration will be out of the picture too. Strap in! • Circular Blueprints Gameshow – [Full Video] World Circular Economy Forum 2017 | Video | • Circular Blueprints Gameshow – [Panel 1] World Circular Economy Forum 2017 | Video | • Circular Blueprints Gameshow – [Panel 2] World Circular Economy Forum 2017 | Video | • Nordic Council of Ministers The Economies of the Future Are Circular – World Circular Economy Forum | Article | • Sitra Circular Blueprints Gameshow – Driving the Economic Transition in the Nordics & Beyond | Picture | • Avfall Norge Circular Economy Roadmap | Report | • Sitra Finnish Roadmap to a Circular Economy 2016-2025 | Report | • Nordic Council of Ministers Nordic programme to reduce the environmental impact of plastic | Report | • Zero Waste Europe European Zero Waste Case Studies | Case Study | • Zero Waste Europe Scenario: Incineration Capacity Reduced by 75% by 2030 | Picture | • Zero Waste Europe Scenario: Incineration Capacity Reduced by 95% by 2030 | Picture | • The Guardian Waste not want not: Sweden to give tax breaks for repairs – with Per Bolund | Article | MADE POSSIBLE BY: The Nordic Council is the official body for formal inter-parliamentary co-operation. Formed in 1952, it has 87 members from Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and Åland. Thank you to our media partners: Back to series page Next episode Transcript from the Episode Camille Duran [CD]: Hi everyone. No I am not waking up, I am stretching. I am stretching because I am just back from the future. Yes, I was in 2050 for a short break with the team and a few friends… and I have to say this time machine is not as good as the one we used last year, in our series on climate finance. Anyway, we got the job done, I’ll explain in a minute. Welcome, you’re listening to Green Exchange – we’re back to our Circular Economy series. We have new insights to bring to the table. I have to say that … in this episode we took risks that no one ever took before. But be reassured, everyone came out of it alive. How about you? How are you? What’s cooking at the moment? Do you feel alive? [Intro Jingle] CD: You are listening to Green Exchange – Circular Economy In Practice: What will the future look like exactly? Exactly… we don’t know, but we’ve tried to come up with an answer that is as realistic as possible. Actually no, it’s not true. Because that’s not how things work. It’s not about trying to be realistic and imagine what will the world be like in 2050. That’s the passive approach. [Robot Voice]: Passive CD: We cannot afford being passive here, I know you probably live in a bubble just like I do – but let me tell you, things are not looking good… [Audio Clip] CD: We cannot just sit in front of our TV and try to guess whatever will happen. I suggest we leave predictions to futurologists, mediums and …economists. At Green Exchange, we believe the future is for us to hold. [Robot Voice]: Active BACKCASTING: TAKING REAL STEPS TOWARDS THE GREEN ECONOMY CD: So what is a proactive approach to future management? If you heard our very first pilot episode in late 2015 (looong time ago), you may remember a planning method we talked about in detail. This method is called backcasting – the opposite of forecasting. Forecasting – as you probably know – is basically predicting an unknown future. Backasting is about defining a desirable future and then working backwards to identify steps that we need to take for that future to become true. In other words, what are the policies and programs we need to roll out in the coming two years, five years, ten years, twenty years, for that future to become true. This is a way to create a roadmap a blueprint that we are sure will take us there. You do this everyday with your children when you really think about it. You want them to become a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer – so for that future to become true they need to be well educated, disciplined and study hard. You know what’s the path, they will need to go to that type of school, hang out in that type of neighbourhood, say no to drugs – although I know a good lawyer that…[voice fades away]. And who cares about what your kids really want, right? “No you cannot be an artist sweet heart, this is not a job this is a hobby.” “Traveling the world hitchhiking? haha what a strange idea…” “Stop crying, you will be a lawyer… get to work. I have been backcasting for years with your mother, you know?” So… Back to our story. Earlier this month we got out of the studio to make a real-life experiment. We needed eight volunteers. Not any volunteers. People with vision, with experience, with influence, and knowledge of how the system works. We wanted a mix representing different countries – North and South – and coming from different sides of society (public sector, private sector, civil society). Most importantly, our candidates had to be ambitious, and willing to take risk. We also needed a stage, a big one. And a time machine, a good one. Long story short we went to Helsinki in Finland to run our experiment as part of the World Circular Economy Forum. Remember when in Episode 5 Bas de Leeuw, our guest, talked about this forum and I caught him on record?…. [Audio Clip From Episode] Bas de Leeuw: …and the agenda for the event next June. CD: So can we come and produce a live talk show from there? Bas de Leeuw: Absolutely! [Clip Ends] CD: There we were, a few months later, talk show on the big stage, and I don’t think they expected us to bring a time machine… By the way I would like to thank all the project partners for making this possible: Sitra Fund, the Nordic Council of Ministers, and the World Resources Forum. Fast forward – Our eight volunteer participants are standing on stage ready to time travel. We organised them in two teams. Team Blue and Team Red. CD: In team Blue we had: Per Bolund, Swedish Minister for Consumer Affairs & Financial Markets Mariel Vilella, Managing Director ar Zero Waste Europe Wytske Van der Mei, Deputy Director for Sustainability at the Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment. and Elin Larsson Sustainability Director at Filippa K, an ambitious Nordic textile brand. [Audio Clip From Event]: In team Red we have: Alice Kaudia, Environment Secretary in Kenya Nancy Strand, Director of the Norwegian Waste Agency Kimmo Tilikainen, Minister of Agriculture & the Environment, also in Finland. And finally Kari Herlevi, Project Director for Circular Economy at Sitra Fund in Finland [Clip Ends] CD: What happened next? We set the time machine on “year 2050”. Each team was assigned two observation missions, so four missions in total – ten minutes per mission. The goal was to observe what a circular future looks like and harvest as many good ideas as possible within those ten minutes. This way, after coming back into the present, we would be able to define blueprints and roadmaps that will take us to that fully future. In short, a backcasting gameshow – live in front of an expert audience. There was some pressure, that’s true, but I thinks we got somewhere. [Audio Clip From Event]: CD: Here, I just want you to press the red button when I tell you. Is that okay? Guest: Yes. CD: Are you ready over there? Are you sure you want to do this? [Laughter]. Okay, let’s go. So I’m going to first press and then I tell you…..Now! [Sound of time machine] [Clip Ends] CD: While team blue was in 2050, I talked to team red to learn about what’s in the pipe at the moment, and the present challenges they are facing – and you can find the link to the full discussion on the episode page. Then it was time for Team Red to time travel. [Audio Clip From Event]: [Sound of time machine] CD: Did it work? Yeah they’re here! Let’s give a hand for the time machine! [Clip Ends] CD: while Team Blue came back to 2017 alive. Worth mentioning. And – same principle – I sat with Team Blue to ask them a few questions about their current work- and you can find the full panel discussion on the episode page. Twenty minutes later – when team red completed its two missions – we brought them back into the present. And here again, everyone made it safe and sound. Thank you to our time machine engineers who kept us out of trouble. It was time to hear what was observed by our guests in 2050. In other words – what’s their vision of a desirable future, what does a fully circular economy look like? This is where I would like to spend a bit of time today so we can visualise and understand the kind of insights that came out of this experiment. NO FOSSIL FUELS, CLOSED-LOOP MATERIALS, NO COTTON AND NO CARS 09:52 Wait – let’s get my colleague Eleen on the microphone to help me debrief here. Hello Eleen. Eleen Murphy [EM]: Hello! CD: How are you? How circular do you feel today? EM: Pretty circular…I think I ate too much carrot cake so that could be part of it [laughter]. CD: Okay so you’ve been following our little experiment and spent some time analysing the results. EM: I have. CD: So all their observations were captured in graphic form by our colleague Carlotta Cataldi who did an amazing job in documenting all this live. EM: Well done Carlotta! And the full graph and drawing is also available on our episode page CD: Right. But before we go through all the insights, I’d like to play a few sound bites to give our listeners a sense for the dynamic of the discussion. There was a lot of excitement… EM: Yeah, clearly! 10:41 [Audio Clip From Event]: Mariel Vilella [MV]: Yeah, so we had a really vibrant discussion and we all agree that 2050 is going to look amazing! Per Bolund [PB]: Of course we have efficiency production patterns, but there will also be very, very localised production patterns where we are actually mending, repairing our goods and our clothes in the local neighbourhood in every block in our cities Kari Herlevi [KH]: So we discussed that soil health is in the core of the agricultural policy practices, and nutrients are also circulating and are used in a more precise way. Elin Larsson [EL]: So in terms of materials, we’ve banned fossil fuels, but it’s a multi-diverse palette of different sources. KH: In addition to that, meat consumption will be reduced and the vegetarian diet increased. CD: Oh really? We’re all going to be vegetarians? KH: Nope, but it will be increased. CD: Okay so we’re going to go to mission two, which was: how will we shop in 2050? MV: We’re going to have services, and it’s going to be possible to repair your clothes, to give it back, to maybe redesign them so it’s more innovative. PB: We’ll start sharing our clothes much more. We’ve seen that the cars here are kept standing 92% of the time, and actually I think we all have suits in our wardrobes that are used even less than that. So if we can subscribe to clothing services, so instead someone comes to our door with a wardrobe every week, and we leave it back after the week is done, so we can use our clothing material together and have a common wardrobe – I think that’s a success story. CD: Yes, interesting, I give a bonus here, but it’s going to be tight! KH: More importantly, we have shared living spaces, and cities are walkable so you can really get everywhere. CD: No cars? MV: No cars. CD: Oh really? No cars? Show of hands here? Ahh interesting, you get a bonus here! [Clip Ends] EM: You got them pretty excited CD: Yes, they were all great and it was fun. So let’s dive in! EM: Well overall the level of ambition was good, i would say it’s very encouraging. Some bold ideas, which is what we need – remember we’re talking about 33 years down the road so we quite a bit of room to be ambitious here. CD: Correct. Should we go mission by mission? EM: Yeah I think so. So, there was four missions as you explained, on four different themes – each mission outlined a question and a couple of SDGs to keep in mind for the observation exercise. CD: Yeah, so Mission One was: What does textile production & supply look like in 2050? EM: Yes, and we said we would talk about textiles in to this at this point in the series, so. CD: Well there you go! EM: Yeah so there was a lot of focus on materials of course – beyond fossils. So, only recycled, bio-based, closed-loop materials in the future. Production will be much more local than it is today as well, with individual fashion, 3d printers for clothes, and a local makers movement. CD: Right and these are things we’re starting to see in different regions, but it’s still very much at the prototyping stage. This was a point that we talked about quite a bit in the two panel discussions, you know this local versus global industry for textile or other products. What kind of circle are we drawing here when we talk about circular economy? Global loops of materials, where we’re sending the materials to China where they’re being recycled and brought back into the production line? Or are we talking about more regionalised assets, localised production where communities are in charge of the making, as an advanced version of the makers movement we see today, but with much more localised assets. That was a very interesting point in the panel discussions. EM: Yeah and it seems most people are unsure of how things should look. CD: Yes and I think this is mainly because industry and all the big brands are not ready to accept that things will probably look very different, so they don’t want to imagine their empire disappear…and they are a dominant voice in the circular economy discussion today, so… EM: Exactly CD: what else came out of this mission? EM: Well, regulations will demand sustainable procurement they said. No more incineration of textiles, which is great. Full transparency will be provided to the consumers and regulators, and they’ll be using no harming chemicals… CD: Long way to go…:) EM: Yeah! 15:41 CD: Mission two was also focusing on textiles… EM: Yes it was, but this time on the consumer side. So: what will shopping for textiles and fashion will look like in 2050? CD: I want to know! EM: Yeah, me too! Well, according to team blue: “throwing away will not exist anymore”. So, we don’t throw anything out. And: all clothes will all have a story, they say. CD: Ah because they will be worn by several people, so that’s where the story is coming from, I like this idea. Maybe not for all my clothes – I don’t know if my socks need to have a story…you see what I mean? EM: Well your socks will probably be compostable, I’d say… CD: Of course…great idea. Or edible… EM: Ugh…We’ll see what the future brings… CD: It’s true! EM: Well, moving on anyway! Apparently, they say materials will be completely different from today: more durable, no cotton, no virgin polyester… CD: Wow, no cotton. EM: Yeah! That’s a totally different world. According to our guests there will be hubs for services, every thing on a subscription basis. Community wardrobes, repair, seasonal storage, and so on. And, micro taxes, and very high customer service. 17:22 CD: All this were great points and I know there are many other ideas around all this but these were the main points. Team Red? EM: Yeah, so Team Red, you know, were on two different missions. The first one was: What are the fundamentals of the bioeconomy in 2050? CD: And for those interested in more bioeconomy talks, remember we have a series on this and our previous agriculture episodes also touch on bioeconomy. What did you take from the debriefing? EM: Well obviously, soil health will need to be at the centre of all policy and programs world wide. Everyone agreed on that. Forest management was a big topic as well with two team members from Finland and one from Kenya. Intensive restoration in Africa was one thing. And lots of products are made from the trees. CD: That was also an interesting talking point in the panel discussion with team red: What is sustainable forestry management? How and where do we make those products from trees because as discussed in our series on bioeconomy: you can have sustainable forestry practices in a country like Finland, for instance, but if you send your wood to China to make your cellulosic fibre for instance – where its done in a way that would not be permitted in Europe, with a lot of impact on the environment, harmful chemicals etc. – then the impact of your industry ends up being really bad overall. So i hope that in the coming years we are going to be able to level the playing field. EM: Yeah that’s a great point. And there is a lot of work to be done on that front. What else… they envisioned hydroponics everywhere, wide spread vegetarianism and zero food waste… CD: Zero food waste, that would be good. I take that, we will also eat insects. I personally started, if you want to know… EM: Oh really!? What do you eat? CD: Well I eat crickets and roasted worms – mainly in the salad and sometimes in my muesli. EM: Really… CD: Not in the muesli, but in the salad it’s good. So get used to it Eleen it’s the future! EM: I’ll keep that in mind. I have a few years to work on it… WHAT DO CIRCULAR CITIES LOOK LIKE IN 2050? INCINERATION IS ON THE WAY OUT CD: Right. Mission 4? EM: What does living in a circular city look like in 2050? CD: This one was good. EM: Yeah, It was, and here’s what we got. Construction materials are sustainable, all buildings are high standard. People are sharing space all the time for everything, ownership is not the standard anymore. Cities are clean and completely silent – and every person has access to nature and biodiversity. CD: [Laughs] Yeah we went a bit off track here because I don’t know if this is circular economy, the nature and biodiversity part, but why not… EM: Hey, but it sounds nice, right? There’s also Zero Waste – so no incineration and landfilling of materials. And you had an interesting discussion about this in one panel, right? CD: Yeah, many people are still unclear whether waste incineration has a seat at the circular economy table or not, and I think it’s still very uncomfortable to admit for many, but everyone is more or less aware of the answer. Maybe we can have a quick listen to that part: 20:51 [Audio Clip From Event] Mariel Vilella [MV]: Today they are having the seperate collection of 85%. By 2030, if all cities in Europe had 85% separate collection, incineration would be reduced to 75% percent. So I think incineration is this model from the 80’s and 90’s and this is what we see also in northern countries – they have invested in this large infrastructure which is there and has created a bit of a lock-in situation, a bit of an over-capacity. And it hasn’t given the flexibility necessary to overcome that model, whereas in the south, this investment didn’t happen, and there’s been more opportunity and more flexibility to not go through the incineration stage. I think this is the lesson that is important to bear in mind when we really want to build a circular economy. CD: So I have a tough question for Per Bolund. And you see me coming, right? So I’m going to ask it. I’m a resident of Sweden, so I’m going to say “we” – we have this excuse that there’s so much waste to incinerate in Europe, so we’re helping all the countries that have landfilling to recover their waste by importing it to Sweden where we have overcapacity. And that’s okay, and we have decades in front of us. So my question, which I prepared of course, is: Instead of importing waste to burn in Sweden, how do we export a circular economy system that helps those countries move faster towards higher recycling rates, using the zero waste roadmap (which is different than waste-to-landfill)? That’s an important distinction to note in the media. And how is the Green Party engaging on this? Because I’m behind. Per Bolund [PB]: Excellent. Well I think that we are in a lock-in position and we have to start unlocking it. And we are working on that and we are doing enquiries on how to get the economic system moving from incineration towards recycling, because we know very well from science that we can save so much resources and energy if we reuse and recycle instead of just incinerating. So we are moving ahead, and of course there’s quite a long journey to go, but we are also not just incinerating, we are actually champions when it comes to recycling our goods. So we have very efficient recycling systems and I think that is something that we can really give access to to the rest of the world. CD: When are you going to convince the government about this Swedish circular economy roadmap? Incineration will not be in the blueprints, will they? PB: Absolutely. We are taking huge steps forward, so I think that more and more people, both within government and within politics – but also from the consumer, producer and business side – are seeing that we have so much to win in moving to a more circular pattern. Not least providing labour opportunities: the kind of mass production that we’re stuck in today is very efficient when it comes to labour, it’s very automised. And if we can go in a pattern where we are reusing more, we are refurbishing, renovating our materials, that would provide lots and lots of new labour opportunities. This would really solve the problem in many countries, where we have a part of the population that don’t get access to the labour market. [Clip Ends] 24:34 CD: Back to what was said in mission four? EM: Yeah that was pretty much it… Oh, there was no motorised transport! People appreciate the value of slow living, they walk everywhere. no washing machines, and self cleaning clothes CD: Self cleaning clothes? EM: Yep, apparently. CD: What? EM Yeah I’m not sure if I can expand on that one, or explain it. But yeah, that’s our future. CD: Okay well, let’s move on, there are many things we cannot understand from 2017…Can you imagine that one day – inch’allah – we may be listening to this podcast from 2050, sitting here with self-cleaning clothes, feeling stupid because team red were right…I think we are young enough for that to happen…no? We will be in our sixties in thirty three years? EM: Yeah, our sixties I think. Hey, do you think we’ll still be doing Green Exchange in our sixties? CD: Of course we will. I calculated it actually that if we keep at fifty episodes per year, it will be episode 1690. One thousand, six hundred and ninety. EM: That’s a lot of episodes! CD: Let’s do it! 25:55 CD: We’ll post all the links I think for those who wish to dig deeper. I would like to thank everyone who participated in this experiment: the project team and the guests. It’s always pleasant to get support and enthusiasm when we are trying to push the boundaries of what can be done on a stage in 90 minutes. Eleen, thanks for helping me with this debrief, it’s always better when you’re around! EM: Thank you Camille! Always a pleasure. CD: Stay tuned, in next episode of this circular economy series we will talk about one big idea that kept coming back during the discussion and that we haven’t covered yet – on purpose – so we can dedicate a full episode to it. We will talk about international cooperation & collaboration in general. We hope you had a good time. This episode was made possible by the Nordic Council of Ministers, a big thank you to their team for the support in producing this debrief. Backcasting – that was our focus for today, but really, it should become a habit for everything we are trying to achieve. it is powerful. We’ll be back soon with more green knowledge, inspiration, and entertainment. Keep up the good work in the meantime! END
6 minutes | Jul 1, 2017
Quickfire #3: What’s Coming Up Next At Green Exchange?
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