Listen Now

We live in a fame-saturated culture. Celebrity figures run our largest corporations, media entities, and megachurches. But the characteristics of celebrity—unquestioned authority, dynamic public personas, and tendency toward abuse—make it a dangerous feature in Christian churches. Recent stories about abusive, exploitative celebrity pastors have spotlighted this fact. In this episode, Katelyn Beaty discusses her new book Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. She identifies the key features of fame and celebrity that infect every element of our culture and diagnoses their central issues, including secrecy, self-promotion, anger, and pride. She asks whether the business world has become the model for the church and whether the American church is unique in its elevation of celebrity pastors. The church needs to know the dangers of celebrity and find ways to remain accountable in its pursuit of the gospel. Show notes: 0:00 Seeking versus receiving fame 2:14 Celebrity and self-promotion 4:48 When the platform becomes the point 9:00 Public personality and false intimacy 12:21 Billy Graham and the Modesto Manifesto 18:06 Anger, narcissism, leadership, and celebrity 21:35 Privacy versus secrecy 24:40 Church boards 28:23 American megachurches 34:21 Avoiding celebrity pastors Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

We hear the word "trauma" a lot today—but what does it really mean? For Christians who have experienced horrific, overwhelming, life-threatening events events, the church can be a place either of fear or of healing. In this episode, Scott Harrower and Joshua Cockayne discuss their new book Dawn of Sunday: The Trinity and Trauma-Safe Churches (written with Preston Hill). They examine attitudes and practices that help us recognize, accept, and respond to traumatized individuals within the church. As the church becomes a community of help and safety, and as its members grow in Christlikeness, it can become a haven for the traumatized and vulnerable. Scott Harrower is a Lecturer in Christian Thought at Ridley College and an ordained Anglican minister. He writes on the history of early Christianity and philosophical issues such as the problem of evil. Joshua Cockayne is a Divinity Honorary Lecturer at the University of St. Andrews. His research focuses on spirituality and ecclesiology, and he works in the area of analytic theology. Show notes: 0:00 Distinguishing trauma from other kinds of pain or distress 3:20 Commonplace horrors and their effects 5:35 Writing Dawn of Sunday 8:26 Seeing and responding to grief 11:38 Responsible practices for dealing with trauma 14:49 Making church a safe place 20:21 Symptoms of trauma 26:00 The church as a community of help 31:03 Aiding those who are experiencing ongoing trauma Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

We all desire repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. But these concepts are complicated, and seeing them from a Jewish perspective on biblical law can provide a fresh perspective to non-Jews. In this episode, the discussion of repentance and forgiveness continues with Rabbi Shalom Carmy and Dru Johnson. They distinguish between the action of repentance and the intention of repentance and question whether you can really reconcile without both. They also consider group forgiveness, and whether any one member of a group can facilitate reconciliation on behalf of the group. Growing in these practices, and doing them biblically, requires sustained and frequent reflection on their significance. Shalom Carmy is Assistant Professor of Jewish Philosophy and Bible at Yeshiva University. He specializes in biblical interpretation and modern Jewish thought, and writes for several religious and Jewish publications. He previously wrote “And God Saw Their Deeds”: Biblical Repentance in Action (and Less So in Feeling) for The Biblical Mind. Show notes: 0:00 Actions versus words 3:32 Repentance and forgiveness for groups 7:00 Forgiveness in the Holocaust 13:03 Commanding repentance 17:28 Yom Kippur 20:39 Regret, confession, and resolve 26:17 Progressing in repentance 28:08 The inner experience of reconciliation 32:27 What is real forgiveness? Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

From Genesis, marriage looks like it is one of the most important parts of creation. So, does Jesus really say in Luke 20 that there will be no "marrying and giving in marriage" in the new heavens and earth? In the first episode of The Biblical Mind Q&A series, Dru Johnson examines the phrase "marrying and giving in marriage" across Scripture—and what Jesus really meant by it. In Luke 20, the Sadducees approach Jesus and ask about a woman who had multiple husbands. Jesus' response might seem to suggest that no one is married in the age of resurrection. Dru argues that Luke has in mind a broader, more subtle point about the resurrection and the end of the world. Dru Johnson is the Director for the Center of Hebraic Thought, the host of The Biblical Mind Podcast, and an Associate Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at The King's College. He is also the author of the recent book Biblical Philosophy: A Hebraic Approach to the Old and New Testaments. Show notes: 0:00 Introduction—is there marriage in heaven? 2:43 Marriage as part of the structure of creation 4:10 Examining Luke 20 10:14 The purpose of Luke's gospel 14:35 Luke 17: "Marrying and giving in marriage" 21:21 Why Jesus isn't actually talking about marriage Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

This episode previews the CHT's new book The Biblical World of Gender: The Daily Lives of Ancient Women and Men. Three of the authors from the book (Carmen Imes, Nijay Gupta, and Cynthia Shafer-Elliott) discuss their contributions. They touch on the gender assumptions in the ancient Near East and Roman Empire, along with some of the Bible's challenging passages about slavery and authority. Carmen Imes is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University and the author of Bearing God's Name: Why Sinai Still Matters. She has been a missionary to the Philippines and releases "Torah Tuesday" videos on her YouTube channel. Nijay Gupta is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, Editor-in-Chief of the Bulletin for Biblical Research, and the author of Paul and the Language of Faith. Cynthia Shafer-Elliott is Associate Dean and Associate Professor in the School of Theology and Leadership at William Jessup University. She does archaeological research on ancient Israel, including households, food preparation, and gender dynamics in the family, and is an editor of the recent T&T Clark Handbook of Food in Ancient Israel and the Hebrew Bible. Show notes: Carmen Imes 0:00 Why we need to examine the biblical authors' view of gender 3:42 The "sanctified imagination" and entering into the biblical story 5:20 A selection from Carmen Imes's essay "Freedom Fighters of the Exodus" Nijay Gupta 9:07 Understanding Paul's "harshness" 11:58 The biblical authors on the rape of slaves 14:15 Examples of radical early Christian ethics 16:26 Gender differences in the first-century Roman Empire Cynthia Shafer-Elliott 18:48 The importance of household archaeology 21:19 Understanding the cultural assumptions of the biblical texts 25:44 Hierarchy versus heterarchy Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

What happens to you when you die? Many Christians picture eternal life as spending time in an ethereal heaven with God, either after death as a disembodied spirit or after a "rapture" of Christians. Books and films, made by and for Christians, promote this idea of the afterlife. Dr. J. Richard Middleton wants to debunk this view of the Christian afterlife. What happens right after we die does not much matter to the biblical authors; they concern themselves with proclaiming the hope of the resurrection and preaching the Kingdom of God. In this episode, he discusses common words in our theological vernacular—spirit, soul, resurrection, hell, heaven, etc.—and challenges us to rethink them through a biblical lens. The story of the Bible is not the story of what happens between death and resurrection, but the story of the "redemption of the world." Dr. Middleton is Professor of Biblical Worldview and Exegesis at Roberts Wesleyan College. He specializes in the Christian worldview, Christianity and postmodernism, Old Testament Theology, and eschatology. His most recent book is A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology. Show notes: 0:00 Introductions, N.T. Wright, and the redemption of the world 3:48 Reactions to debunking the rapture 4:57 "What happens to you when you die?" 7:59 God's glory entering the world 10:45 Spiritual versus physical 13:24 The hope of the resurrection 16:42 Believing you go to heaven when you die 18:32 Purgatory, limbo, and the grave 21:03 Resuscitation versus resurrection 25:20 The resurrection, final judgment, and hell Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

This episode was originally published in March, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners. Many of us have learned definitions of faith, belief, and trust that merely concern internal mental states. We say we believe something when we mentally affirm its truth, and we say we trust God when we believe what the Bible says. But these introspective forms of faith aren't really what the biblical authors have in mind when they talk about faith in the Bible. For them, faith is more of a full-bodied allegiance to Jesus, a commitment to serve and work alongside Him as our King. In this episode, Dr. Matthew Bates talks to Dru Johnson about allegiance and faith in the Bible. They consider how, in the context of the Roman empire, the idea of loyalty in patron–client relationships shaped the way the biblical authors understood trust, authority, and honor. Along the way, they also discuss some of the biblical metaphors for salvation that are drawn from the social dynamics of the ancient world, and how the Hebrew Bible influenced the New Testament's view of power and authority. They conclude by outlining about how modern people can understand the language of kingdom and lordship in Scripture, and how the church can inculcate rituals of allegiance in the body of Christ. Show notes: 0:00 Trusting with our bodies, not just with our minds 3:55 The word pistis in the Roman world 6:50 Metaphorical language to describe our salvation 9:48 What allegiance looks like 14:15 How to think about Jesus' lordship 17:46 Continuity between the New Testament and the Hebrew Bible 20:00 Allegiance rituals in the church Learn more about Matt Bates. Matthew Bates's most recent book: Gospel Allegiance: What Faith in Jesus Misses for Salvation in Christ Show notes by Micah Long. Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

When we think of the early church, some of us might imagine groups of illiterate believers guided by one or two trained readers or teachers. In fact, the historical reality was very different. Brian J. Wright describes an ancient world obsessed with reading—especially public, communal reading of significant texts, including lots of questioning and dialogue. In this episode, Dru Johnson and Brian Wright examine literacy levels in the Roman Empire, the early church's engagement with Paul's letters, and historical evidence about reading in the first and second centuries. They also discuss the modern church's Bible engagement, and how we can take a more dialogical and active approach to reading Scripture. Brian J. Wright is an associate pastor at Denia Community Church, an adjunct professor, and author of Communal Reading in the Time of Jesus: A Window into Early Christian Reading Practices. He studies communal reading in the scholarly context, challenging long-held views about literary culture, and also encourages contemporary communal reading practices. Show notes: 0:00 The "public reading mania" of the early Christian era 3:20 Transformative, communal texts 5:53 Literacy levels in the Roman Empire 9:40 Defining "communal" 12:23 Jewish practices for reading and debating Scripture 14:18 A culture of collective correction 17:27 Early Christian dialogue 21:11 Dialogue in the modern church 26:47 Reading entire epistles 32:40 Reading "as long as time permits" 35:28 Augustine about Ambrose reading Tweetable Quote "There's wisdom in us doing it [reading and teaching] together. Everything about the community is really at the heart of the conversation." Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

Is the Book of Judges a morality play? A celebration of violence? An injunction against moral relativism? Could it be . . . good news? In this week's episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Daniel J. Stulac, who challenges us to enter the hell and heartbreak of this grotesque, violent, and provocative part of Scripture. Rather than adopting moralistic readings of Judges (common in Sunday school classes and children's Bibles), Daniel wants us to read Judges prophetically—as a book that mirrors the violence in our own hearts and turns us to greater dependence on an a King who will set things right. Dr. Stulac is a visiting assistant professor of Old Testament at Duke Divinity School, and the author of the recent monograph, Gift of the Grotesque: A Christological Companion to the Book of Judges. His other areas of interest include the agriculture of ancient Israel and the intersection of agrarianism and biblical hermeneutics. Show notes: 0:00 Misconceptions about the Book of Judges 2:59 The "theological nightmare" 6:45 Violence in the Bible 9:12 Time shifting in Judges 12:46 Judges as literature of exile and testing 17:35 Entering hell 20:25 Idolatry and controlling the divine 25:46 Judges and the Torah 31:03 Why does Israel need a king? Tweetable quote: "At the heart of idolatry is the desire to be in control of the divine." (22:10) Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

In a world of distractions, hyperactivity, and burnout, many of us yearn for rest from our work and our devices. To find this rest, many have turned to the Jewish practice of shabbat or sabbath, ceasing at least some of their regular activity during one day of the week. Kelsey Osgood, a graduate of Colombia University and Goucher College, is a writer and practicing Orthodox Jew. In this episode, Dru and Kelsey discuss her recent article, "Why Your 'Digital Shabbat' Will Fail." Kelsey argues that resting in religious community, rather than as an individual—and not merely for personal reasons, but because God requires it—is a practice that, though difficult, is deeply beneficial. Show notes: 0:00 Preparing for Shabbat 5:35 Discussing Kelsey's recent article 9:00 Two major problems with an individual "digital shabbat" 12:56 Narcissism disguised as self-care 14:19 Can individual Christians practice shabbat? 19:28 The discomfort of practicing Judaism 22:47 The benefits of practicing shabbat Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

The church should not only perform charity work, but also pursue economic justice. Dr. Gift Mtukwa joins Dru Johnson to discuss the Kenyan church and Gift's Pauline scholarship. They examine the importance of multiculturalism in the church, which requires navigating cultural differences in language, worship style, and socioeconomic status. Additionally, Gift explains how reading Paul helps the modern Kenyan church understand poverty, economic opportunity, and financial prudence. Gift Mtukwa is the Chair of the Department of Religion and Christian Ministry at Africa Nazarene University and lead pastor of the University Church of the Nazarene. Born in Zimbabwe, he now lives in Nairobi, Kenya. His research centers on contextual readings of Scripture, especially Paul's letters. Show notes: 0:00 Different Kenyan tribes in the same church 3:16 The importance of diverse leadership 5:50 Explaining the Kenyan tribes 9:24 Kenyan impressions of majority-white churches 12:03 Evangelism in Africa 13:45 Paul's approach to multiculturalism 19:15 Understanding "if you don't work, you don't eat" 22:58 Poverty in rural and urban Kenya 25:34 How the church can help people in poverty 30:49 Pastoral education in economics and community development 33:33 Pros and cons of the American church Show notes by Micah Long Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

This episode was originally published on February 4, 2022. In light of the Southern Baptist Convention's release of a report on sexual abuse within the denomination, we thought this episode was worth reissuing for our newer listeners. This week, Rachael and Jacob Denhollander joined the podcast to discuss what reconciliation and restoration can look like following horrific abuse. Rachael Denhollander, a lawyer and former gymnast, rose to international prominence in 2016 when she became the first woman to publicly denounce and pursue criminal charges against former USA Gymnastics’ team doctor Larry Nassar, who sexually abused more than 500 girls and women. Rachael authored What Is a Girl Worth?, which explores her story in depth.  In cases of abuse and sexual misconduct within the church, Christians can become fixated on forgiving and forgetting, and fear what will happen if the church gets bad press. But God will continue preserving His church, hence our job is not to protect the church from critique; it is to pursue justice. Failure to do so systemically enables sexual abuse. Justice and reconciliation must go hand in hand. Show Notes: 0:26 Is forgiveness necessary for reconciliation? 6:41 Returning to a proper understanding of God's justice 11:49 There's a cost to caring 17:32 The spirit of humility 20:25 Sexual violence and the church 27:04 God's justice 31:40 How do we restore what was broken? 34:11 Complicit organizations—can you forgive an organization? Tweetable: "The church has an obligation to pursue justice because that's who God is." Resources: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/6-ways-pastors-can-care-for-victims-of-sexual-abuse/ https://churchcares.com/   Show notes by Dominique LaCroix    Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

The history of humanity is the history of migration. People have always been on the move, in Scripture and in the modern day. Understanding the migrants near us, their experiences, and the languages they speak can equip us to love them better. M. Daniel Carroll R., author of Global Migration and Christian Faith: Implications for Identity and Mission, explains our biblical obligation to love the foreigner, which includes not only people from a foreign country but also those with different socioeconomic backgrounds or even just very different life experiences.  Show notes: 1:07 Immigration in Scripture 4:11 Migration = people-moving 5:55 Dru's controversial view 7:15 Forced migration 12:45 Caring for the foreigner 20:46 The new has come 34:50 Language of the heart Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode. Show notes by Dominique LaCroix Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

The Old Testament, especially Deuteronomy, repeatedly entreats the Israelites to welcome the stranger. The Israelites were required to love the stranger because God loves the stranger. In the gospels, Jesus practices this teaching continually, forming a makeshift family from the vulnerable around him. The church should likewise adopt the stranger and the vulnerable as family, because this is God’s design for humanity.  Mark Glanville, pastor and professor of pastoral theology, discusses the biblical ethic of welcoming refugees; his involvement in Kinbrace, a Canadian nonprofit that provides refugee housing and support; and how welcoming those on the margins can shape our view of Scripture and the world.  Show notes: 1:07 Welcoming refugees and Kinbrace 4:53 Welcoming is witnessing 6:53 Do Christians have a requirement to help refugees? 11:24 Addressing criminality 13:56 Exile 18:39 Shaping our view of the world 22:51 Kinship 35:20 Reading from diversity Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode. Show notes by Dominique LaCroix Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

This episode was originally published on October 16, 2020. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners. Many readers of Scripture are jarred when God and Israel commit violence in the Old Testament. From the conquest of Canaan, to the lives of the biblical patriarchs, to the great flood in Genesis, we cannot avoid the fact that God and His people fight and kill. This can lead to a crisis of faith—how can God be good if He is violent? Dr. Matt Lynch, Assistant Professor of Old Testament at Regent College, wants to reframe our questions; rather than merely worrying about God's use of violence, we could instead ask how the biblical authors are critiquing our use of violence. In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Lynch about how the Bible portrays violence. They discuss Scripture's persistent connection between violence and tumult, and the difference between justified forceful harm and unjust violence. They also address the ethical connection between human beings and the rest of creation, and how violence in the Old Testament and New Testament separates humanity from God and the earth. Show notes: 0:00 The problem of violence in the Old Testament and New Testament 2:25 Introducing Dr. Matthew Lynch and his work 7:12 Violence in Scripture versus violence in the modern world 11:50 War with the Canaanites in the book of Joshua 14:28 Ethics, ecology, and the environment 22:47 The New Covenant and our relationship to creation 24:24 The overarching perspective on violence in Scripture 29:15 Listening to the biblical texts for their questions Dr. Lynch's new book: Portraying Violence in the Hebrew Bible: A Literary and Cultural Study Show notes by Micah Long. Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

If God teaches us through rituals, then we have a responsibility to examine these rituals. By studying them, asking questions, and engaging with them, we can better understand God’s holiness. The Book of Leviticus is concerned with so many aspects of life (what we eat, what we wear, etc.), and it offers us a holistic way to interact with the world and truly be set apart.  Rev. Dr. Mark Scarlata joins Dru Johnson this week to discuss his book, A Journey through the World of Leviticus: Holiness, Sacrifice, and the Rock Badger and how engaging with Leviticus and its laws can help us better understand God and the rest of Scripture. Show notes: 0:26 Laying of hands and Leviticus 3:57 Tearing down walls of holiness (Leviticus 19) 11:04 Reaction to rules 18:30 Sacrificial animals and objects 24:15 Jesus’ concern with Leviticus 27:12 What do the Brits think about American Christians Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode. Show notes by Dominique LaCroix Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

We at the CHT and TBM are curious about your thoughts and questions regarding the intellectual world of the Bible! We’re now inviting listeners to send us questions, and we’ll start answering them in upcoming Q&A episodes. You can email us your questions at cht_administrator@tkc.edu.  Have you ever wanted to jump into a conversation between Dru and one of our guests? Do you want to probe more deeply into a topic of a previous episode? Or do you perhaps have a question on a topic we’ve never discussed, but that you think we could answer? We look forward to hearing from you!

This week, Jeff Jacoby, op-ed columnist for The Boston Globe since February 1994, joined Dru to discuss his essay in Sapir, "Jewish Study for Non-Jewish Clergy." He proposes a project of study with deep historical roots that would benefit clergy and anyone who takes religion seriously, not just as an abstract intellectual exercise. He writes, "Imagine that it were possible for non-Jewish clergy — Catholic, Muslim, Baha’i, Mormon, Baptist, Hindu — to have the opportunity to engage meaningfully with the world of Torah study from the inside, even if for only a limited time." 0:30 Essay in Sapir 3:53 The Jethro Project 13:58 The Jewish style of questioning on the spot 28:51 Why would this program be valuable? 33:00 Experiencing Sabbath in Israel Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

Certain modern stereotypes and gender roles influence how women and men in the church understand their humanity and sexuality. When people fall short of these expectations, they can feel inadequate. An idea that has pervaded church history is that men and women are polar opposites. Famous theologians have called women inferior. Regarding gender, what is actually "biblical," and what is merely cultural—and sometimes very harmful? This week, Aimee Byrd critiques the stereotypes in light of her new book The Sexual Reformation, with an eye to restoring the dignity of personhood. She focuses mainly on the Song of Solomon to explore what the roles of men and women, married and single, truly are based on God’s spousal love for His people. Show notes: 0:26 Am I feminine enough? Am I masculine enough? 4:57 The ideal human 7:45 Masculinity and aggression 11:26 Marriage as a picture of God’s love 13:20 The Aristotelian person 16:31 The effect on women 19:23 The last man standing is a woman 23:09 Women in Scripture 31:45 Embodied spirituality 34:40 You are valuable 38:00 What Aimee would say to those who disagree Show notes by Dominique LaCroix Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

This episode was originally published on January 1, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners. Why do many Christians elevate the practice of "quiet time": isolated, often hurried and brief daily Bible-reading? Jen Wilkin—author, speaker, and leader of many Bible studies—challenges this practice. She believes that, rather than instilling deep Bible literacy, the typical "quiet time" encourages shallow reading and pursuit of instant gratification in the form of cheap satisfaction or vague encouragement at the expense of comprehension. Reading any book this way would not yield a thorough grasp of its themes, narrative, characters, and worldview, Jen says, so why read the Bible this way? While affirming its inerrancy, Jen cautions against treating Scripture like a magic 8-ball. The practice of quiet time is indeed formative, but not necessarily for the better. She proposes an alternative method of Bible study involving, among other things, extended (if not daily) reading and regular input from other careful Scripture-readers. Show notes: 0:25 The problem with "quiet time" 8:06 English literature and magic 8-balls 18:56 Setting low expectations for Bible literacy in the church 23:17 The effectiveness of raising the bar 31:21 Why Jen Wilkin focuses on an audience of women Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.