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John Mitchem, global financial consultant and retirement expert, joins Josh to discuss episodes from the first half of season 2 while weaving in his experiences and expertise.

Most retirement systems across the globe have three pillars: a government run social security system, an employment-based retirement system, and, finally, additional individual retirement savings. On the fourth stop of our global tour, we travel to a country where the government runs the whole thing…Singapore! Their comprehensive system goes beyond retirement and is run by the government through the Central Provident Fund (CPF). In this episode, Josh Cohen interviews Desmond Chew, a senior manager at CPF, to help explain its history and how it works, and Joe Cherian, a professor who lays out a methodology which helps evaluate both Singapore’s system and others around the globe. Join us to hear about this all-in-one approach!  Key Takeaways: [:25] Josh Cohen, your host, introduces today’s topic: Singapore, whose government runs the whole retirement plan, and in fact, reaches well beyond retirement. [2:25] Singapore established a mandatory retirement system called the Central Provident Fund (CPF) the basis of the system played today. [2:50] Mr. Desmond Chew (Group Director- Housing) has served in the CPF for more than 20 years. Desmond explains what exactly CPF is and what is its role. [7:51] CPF supports other goals apart from retirement, Dr. Chew speaks about the importance of public housing. [10:52] MediSave are contributions that increase as workers age and its purpose is to be destined for medical expenses. Desmond shares the most important aspect. [13:08] Josh and Desmond dive deep into how the money is invested and the role the GIC plays. [15:25] Desmond talks about the case of those individuals who are ready to take more risks with their savings. [16:45] The system balances individual choice with collective responsibility, Dr. Chew explains how. [20:02] Joseph (Joe) Cherian (Professor of Finance at NUS Business School) shares his background and career journey. [22:10] Joe talks about what happened in 2014, a conflictive time for Singapore’s retirement system. [22:54] Joe wrote an article named: Seven Pillars of a Good Retirement System, stating why CPF meets most of these pillars and the possible areas for improvement. [30:06] Can the US or other countries adopt a system like this? Joe thinks it's difficult to emulate the historical and governmental influence, so he does not recommend it unless the country has a good and solid government. [33:06] Stayed tuned for the bonus episodes!   Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Often retirement policies in a country are a result of a patchwork of initiatives over time.  Wouldn’t it be nice if a country could take more of a blank slate approach?    In this episode, Josh Cohen interviews Helen Dean, CEO of the National Employees Savings Trust, or NEST, which is the largest pension scheme in the United Kingdom based on the number of members. Helen has played a central role over the last two decades in government, and now at NEST, developing and implementing a new retirement approach for the UK.  Learn how they borrowed a lot of great ideas from other countries, including the US, to craft a system that may just be a model for other countries in the future.    Key Takeaways: [:15] Josh Cohen, your host, introduces today’s topic: The evolution of the UK’s retirement system or what Helen Dean likes to call “The biggest social experiment ever”. [3:18] Helen shares her professional journey which started with her getting a degree in psychology and social policy, and involved working for the DWP [6:39] The UK did something unique: They created a pension committee with three individuals: a business leader,  a trade union leader, and a leading academic. [8:51] How do you get individuals to save more? Education and advice didn’t get people to save more. [11:31] Helen shares what her team and she proposed (which was very different from what they saw in the US model), they wanted to require automatic enrolment for all workers. [19:00] Helen shares how the employer community got on board with NEST, after seeing the benefits for the UK and for their own businesses. [22:28] Helen shares how they turned again to the US to adopt their ideas for emergency savings. [23:56] Helen talks about how NEST manages investments for controlling risks and optimizing returns. [25:18] NEST started to invest in liquid and private assets, high-quality sustainable businesses that assure a good return over the long term. [28:43] Helen openly shares her thoughts and feelings about her past two decades dedicated to building NEST from scratch, seeing it grow, and witnessing the amazing impact it has had so far. [31:29] Stay tuned for the next episode where Josh will take the audience to Singapore.   Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.   Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor Listen to Season 1 Episode 5: How Target Date Funds and Behavioral Economics Shaped Retirement Plans   Mentioned in this episode: More about Helen Dean

Here’s what you need to know about Australia’s Retirement System: It’s really big.  It’s government mandated.  It’s privately run.  It’s really sophisticated. Still curious?  Host Josh Cohen’s two guests have played meaningful roles in the system’s development from the highest levels of government and industry.  The Honorable Nick Sherry started one of the first modern Superannuation Funds in Australia and then went to be the leading minister in the government overseeing the industry.  Ian Silk ran the largest Super Fund called Australian Super.  There’s a lot we can learn from their experiences. Key Takeaways: [:19] Josh Cohen, your host, introduces today’s topic: Australia and their compulsory retirement system with very sophisticated investments that cause admiration worldwide. [2:30] Josh is accompanied by two experts to dive deep into the origin and evolution of the Australian retirement system.   [2:55] Nick Sherry joins the conversation. He is a former Australian politician who served as a member of the Australian Senate for the state of Tasmania from 1990 until 2012, Sherry was sworn in as the Assistant Treasurer in 2009, after serving as the first Australian Minister for Superannuation and Corporate Law.   [4:39] Nick shares how he accidentally got involved in the retirement space.   [5:45] Nick explains how Australia began to shape a new retirement policy.   [6:40] Josh describes how the industrial awards system work along with the social wage.   [7:56] Nick shares the development of the House Plus Fund.   [9:10] Nick explains the administrative hassles they had to overcome in the late 80s’.   [10:09] Nick becomes in charge of an additional pension reform when he just assumed the role as a Senate for the state of Tasmania.   [12:32] Nick talks about initiating the Cooper review.   [13:25] What happens at retirement?    [14:01] Nick speaks about his life now that he is retired but still very active!   [14:38] Josh explains what fund mergers are about.   [15: 23] Ian Silk, Chief Executive at AustralianSuper, joins the conversation by providing answers about how Fund mergers work in Australia.   [16:47] Ian talks about his vast experience in the field of funds.   [17:18] Ian dives deep into the five sectors the retirement providers fall into.   [18:30] Ian describes two reasons why the owners have decided not to run their own plans. [20:05] Compulsion arrived to change how things were doing in regards to retirement.   [20:34] An important feature of the Australian retirement system: An employer can run his/her own plan or pick a super plan as the default for his/her workers. There is always a default investment option if the employer doesn’t make an election.   [21:28] Josh talks about Industry funds that arise in the late 1980s and Ian expands on the topic.   [23:39] Josh introduces the fourth sector: The retail sector.   [25:32] Ian explains how people took their funds from retail to industry.   [25:43] The fifth sector is called the Self Managed Super, where people decide to run their own Super. Ian describes the one big driver of its popularity.   [26:58]  Ian explains how Australian Super originated and how it scaled.   [28:49] The area of investing innovation is the one that is admired by many in Australian Super. Ian describes this particular feature of the Australian Super.   [30:02] Ian shares what improvements could be done to an already sophisticated Australian retirement system.   [31:03] Ian talks about the secret to the success of the Australian retirement system.   [32:11] Ian shares the proudest moment of his career, realizing that low to middle-income workers in Australia have something significant to look forward to in retirement that wasn’t the case 30 to 40 years ago.   [33:23] Josh shares his key takeaways from the amazing conversations with Nick Sherry and Ian Silk.   [34:55] Stayed tuned for the next episode: The UK edition.   Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor Mentioned in this episode: More about Nick Sherry More about Ian Silk

Our tour around the globe starts in South America. Chile has been seen in retirement circles as an early pioneer in reforming their retirement system in the late 1970’s.  While studied and admired by many, there are many more layers to the story when viewed from historical and current events.  Host Josh Cohen talks to two individuals who have played a meaningful role in shaping the system.  University of Chicago educated Martin Costabal led efforts in the Chilean government to implement the new system in the midst of the Cold War.  Cristian Rodriguez has led the largest retirement plan provider in the country, and is making the case for the systems long term survival. Travel with us to Chile to hear about their unique history and hopefully learn from their creative retirement solutions.    Key Takeaways: [:21] Josh Cohen, your host, states the main objective of Season 2: to explore how other countries around the world organized their retirement systems to accommodate a work force that is living longer and working much differently than what the previous generation did.   [3:50] Other countries looked up to Chile since they had updated and reformed their retirement system and it used to be viewed as a success. Josh talks about the wider political circumstances in Chile.   [5:03] Josh begins to explore the current state of the Chilean system by starting with its beginnings; that is why he talks with Martin Costabal who participated in its creation within the Chilean government.   [6:21] Martin shares how he got an offer from the University of Chicago that changed his life; he explains his personal and professional reasons for moving to the United States.   [10:30] General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was self-declared president in Chile after a coup, while Martin was studying abroad.   [11:13] In August, 1974, Martin acquired an MBA from the University of Chicago and goes back to Chile to work in the Ministry of Economics with the purpose of instituting policies to reprivatize many industries and battling out of control inflation. He found that an economic blueprint called “The Brick” was already in place with those same goals.   [16:17] Martin focused on creating a new retirement system for Chile along with a group of 20 people, based on some foundations from “The Brick.”   [19:20] Cristian Rodriguez, Chairman of the Board of AFP Habitat, speaks about the organization and its role in managing pensions. Cristian has been working with Habitat for the past 23 years in several positions, he gives an overview of its evolution over the years.   [22:04] The Chilean retirement system lays on three pillars: 1. The government-backed foundational pillar (The solidarity pillar), 2. The employment based pillar (The contribution pillar), and 3. A voluntary saving system (similar to the IRA in the USA). Cristian talks about the pros and cons of each.   [34:47] One challenge for the system in Chile is that not all workers save the same. That is why there is a need to modernize the first pillar to include the informal and independent kinds of work that are becoming more and more prevalent worldwide. People also need to achieve a better understanding of the retirement system and the outcomes they will be generating.   [38:20] Josh talks about four main factors of any retirement system: Access, Adequacy, Alignment of Interest, and Innovation. He also shares his insights in regards to the Chilean retirement system.

Season 2 is almost here! We will be taking this podcast global, learning the unique challenges, historical events, and creative solutions developed to meet the ever-evolving challenges associated with retirement systems.

Mike Barry, Josh’s long-time friend and retirement policy expert, returns to discuss episodes from the 2nd half of season 1 while weaving in related experiences and expertise.

Hear outtakes from Don Ezra (guest from Ep. 8), who shares tales about the opportunity that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union, his collaboration with Nobel Prize winner Bill Sharpe and his present day activities.

Josh invites colleagues David Blanchett and Mikaylee O'Connor of the recently established PGIM DC Solutions team to discuss their background, DC plan innovation, and the role of employers in the retirement space.

In this bonus episode, Brigitte Mardian (guest from Ep. 5) shares stories about her early work, her current research into rainy day savings accounts, and how she earned her current role as Dean of the Brigham Young University Marriott School of Business.

As retirement plans change and evolve, consultants have become trusted guides for accidental plan sponsors.    Episode guests Don Ezra and Rich Nuzum have stood at the highest perch in the world of consultants. Don’s decades at Russell and Rich’s current role in leadership at Mercer span the dawn of the retirement investing consultancy to the present day, where trillions of dollars are invested in defined contribution plans. They’ve spent the majority of their professional careers helping accidental plan sponsors feel less…“accidental.” In this episode, our last of Season 1, we sit down with Don and Rich to discuss the evolution of the DC consulting industry.

Jerry Schlichter and Jamie Fleckner have some things in common. They both got into law through political activism, and they’ve built their careers on ERISA litigation. But where they differ is largely about who their clients are. One represents plan sponsors and their providers, the other represents employees who feel they have been wronged, and their legal battles have shaped how the defined contribution retirement space thinks about innovation. In this episode, we sit down with each to try to understand the history of these cases, how they work, and how litigation has influenced plan sponsor decision making. Key Takeaways: [:25] Josh opens up today’s episode on lawsuits and the effects it has on innovation. How did we get here in the first place? Let’s ask some prominent lawyers about the history of how this all came to be.    [2:25] Jerry has always been an advocate for civil rights and has seen first-hand how much good law and order can do. After being a student protester and passing the bar, Jerry took on race and gender discrimination cases against large companies.   [4:05] Jerry’s path eventually led him to investigating 401k plans for minorities. The more he saw, the deeper he dug. He found himself in unknown territory. There was no definition on how companies were making their investments or the types of fees they were charging. If he were to take on this case, he would be going to war with companies with big pockets.    [7:55] As a young lawyer that represents plan sponsors at the time, Jamie found himself deep into ERISA topics. Jamie mostly worked around the issue of company stock options and retirement plans, but what Jerry brought to the table was completely different. Plan fees have to be monitored and capped based on what’s happening in the market. Third-party mutual funds saw ‘record keeping’ fees as a loophole.    [11:45] Jerry was challenging some pretty ‘status quo’ practices. In trial, Jamie saw first hand how little people understood about ERISA. After a month’s long trial and several witnesses taking the stand, the judge still had a thousand questions on how this process all works.   [15:15] Jerry knew he had to be detailed and diligent in his work. They had to make sure their research was accurate. His team read every public information available to understand this better.    [18:45] The human element really comes to light in cases like this. A plaintiff was displeased with her plan sponsor and her 401k investments, but inadvertently didn’t know that by suing them, she was also suing her former employer; who she loved.    [22:20] Trials are a big production with a lot of emotions to balance in between. Jamie explains why most companies decide to settle, even if they’re in the right.    [26:15] Appeal after appeal, Jerry sees his case go to the supreme court. The first 401k excessive fees case in history.    [29:15] Despite Jerry and Jamie been on both sides of an ERISA lawsuit more than once, they know that, for the most part, plan sponsors are not crooks.   [33:40] As long as plan sponsors make decisions based on the best interest of their participants, everything will be fine. This means, a lot more sponsors are playing things safe when it comes to other people’s investments.    Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor Mentioned in this episode: More about Jerry Schlichter More about. Jamie Fleckner

While saving for retirement has been simplified and streamlined in recent decades, with tools like auto-enrollment and target date funds, the retirement savings ecosystem is anything but simple. It’s a complex confluence of innovators, service providers, employers, workers, consultants, lawyers, and, yes, government officials. Regulators play a huge role in our industry, so understanding who they are and how they work is an important factor in the outcomes for plan sponsors and plan participants. In this episode, we speak with two former Department of Labor EBSA directors, Brad Campbell and Phyllis Borzi, about the challenges and opportunities in regulating the employee benefits space, including the enactment of the landmark Pension Protection Act of 2006. Key Takeaways: [:04] Josh opens up today’s episode with a quick recap of episode 5 which focused on the work of two innovators in the field. He opens up this part of the conversation on what made the start of Target Date Funds and automatic enrollment so very impactful, the passage of the Pension Protection Act of 2006.   [2:18] Josh explores the regulatory carrots and sticks of EPSA through the eyes of two of its leaders, we begin with Bradfrod Campbell. Brad shares about how he came to shape the world of modern retirement savings as the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Employee Benefits in the United States Department of Labor.   [4:18] The Pension Protection Act was passed while Brad worked as a young Republican, he speaks about his beginnings in the Government and how he found ERISA, enrolled in law school and weathered the Enron scandal.   [8:15] Phyllis Borzy took over Brad’s position as the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Employee Benefits in the United States Department of Labor. She talks about how she was always drawn to law and enrolled the year ERISA passed.   [11:14] Her love for ERISA was cemented after her stay in corporate law and she brought it into her career in government all the way up to what she calls the Gingrich revolution.   [13:45] Brad and phyllis had similar challenges but different approaches. Brad talks about the balancing act between carrot and stick.   [15:09] Josh offers a quick explanation of 404C — a pivotal part of the Accidental Plan Sponsor story as well as the Pension Protection Act. Brad weighs in on the way 404C functions.   [19:14] Phyllis shares her profound hate for 404C, her multiple reasons why and what she would do differently.   [22:25] The Pension Protection Act from Brad’s point of view — both pre and post Enron — and the legal implications that had to be thought over in that context.   [26:15] More carrots! 404C generated a proliferation of offers without much structure for participants to direct their investment, Brad describes how they helped write the QDIA regulation and define 3 mechanisms for an appropriate default investment that would stand the test of time.   [30:00] Brad shares the difficulties of putting regulations in place, from congress to burgeoning lawsuits inter-administration. Phyllis shares her take and the work she did on the regulation, get ready for some bi-partisan agreement!   [34:44] Phyllis takes a moment to denounce the attacks her co-workers received from the nay-sayers.   [35:54] With overwhelming bi-partisan support, the Secure Act was passed in 2019, Josh touches on some of the issues this rule attempts to address. Brad and Phyllis share their joy having worked on ERISA.   [37:48] Josh thanks his guests for sharing their stories and ends with a taste of what episode 7 has to offer.   Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.   Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor   Mentioned in this episode: More about Bradford Campbell. More about Phyllis Borzy.

The future of defined contribution retirement savings will always be marked by two key concepts: putting individual investors first when designing plans, and constantly innovating. Over the course of the next four episodes, we’re going to discuss how regulation, litigation, and the role of consultants both support and deter innovation. We’re going to start with two featured guests who laid the foundation for the modern 401(k):     • Brigitte Madrian, who pioneered behavioral economics work on automatic enrollment    • Larry Tint, creator of the Target Date Fund   Key Takeaways: [:29] Josh opens up today’s episode with a quick recap of episode 4 which focused on the work of two innovators in the field. He pursues the series by talking about his  experience and what he believes the very heart of the issues to be — innovation, regulation and consultancies. [4:00] How did Larry Tint — former U.S. CEO of Barclays Global Investors — change the trajectory of the retirement industry? Josh and Larry detail his career trajectory and how it led to meeting the future Nobel prize winner Bill Sharpe and the birth of SharpeTint. [8:00] Most individual investors don’t know how to build investment portfolios! Larry talks about his time at Wells Fargo and his work with Don Luskin to use the technology he created with Bill to the benefit of individuals. The Target Date funds were born. [11:39] The General Motors exception! Also Larry talks about the innovations he didn’t act on or think of and how this might have changed the course of things even further — wheels on suitcases? [15:30] Target date Funds were still being held back, and more innovation was required. Josh introduces Behavioral Economist Brigitte Madrian — ninth Dean of the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University (BYU).  [17:10] Behavioral Economics was not a thing when Brigitte began her academic career. She speaks to a life-changing moment in data analysis and the 20 plus years of research this generated! [22:29] So why is auto-enrollment so successful? Brigitte shares what her research points to as well as the kinds of organisations that immediately were on board, and the ones that weren’t. [26:07] The biggest hurdle… Lawsuits! Brigitte talks about the policy makers that got in touch with her and how she helped shape policy. She also shares the pride she feels about her public and academic involvement. [28:55] Larry takes a moment to reflect on his contributions to the retirement landscape. [29:43] Josh thanks his guests for sharing their stories and opens up the discussion on what came after Target Date Funds and automatic enrollment in the retirement planning space. Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor Mentioned in this episode: More about Larry Tint. More about William “Bill” F. Sharpe. More about Don Luskin. More about Brigitte Madrian.

Josh reviews the first four full-length episodes of the podcast with long-time friend Mike Barry, President of O3 Plan Advisory Services LLC, who offers his thoughts while also sharing some personal experiences from 40+ years’ in the benefits field. 

Josh engages in an energetic discussion with two colleagues and long-time Defined Contribution (DC) experts David Skinner and Sara Shean from PGIM Real Estate. The discussion covers the evolving DC environment, the challenges facing plan sponsors, and the role of real estate in DC.

In this bonus episode, Ted Benna, who is often dubbed the father of the 401(k) and who was a guest from episode 2, reminisces about the early days of DC plans.  Stories he shares includes a memorable exchange with a future vice presidential nominee about retirement savings, how plans were built and communicated in those days, and blowback he received from some in the industry.

In this bonus episode, Frank Cummings (Guest from Ep.1) shares some key moments from his time on Capitol Hill working closely with the late Senator Jacob Javits. Here, Frank describes how he convinced Senator Javits to push for equal access for women in some crucial areas. He also shared a humorous story about former President Lyndon Johnson following the signing of ERISA. 

If innovating was easy, we would all be Steve Jobs. But it’s not. It disrupts lives, it forces us out of comfort zones, and it requires both inspired vision and a lot of work. No wonder we prize the innovators amongst us. In this episode, we talk with two plan sponsors who embraced innovation in the defined contribution space, Stuart Odell, formerly of Intel, and Bob Hunkeler from International Paper Company. We discuss their work, the challenges they faced, and how they view the future of retirement.   Key Takeaways: [:34] Josh opens up today’s episode with a quick recap of episode three which graded the system and found the innovation lacking. In order to find a way forward, he welcomes 2 plan sponsors who have found bold new solutions to obstacles.   [3:39] Stuart Odell shares a bit about his journey from engineering to getting invested as a Plan Sponsor manager — and talks about the precarious state of the retirement plan as he started looking into it at Intel.   [8:00] Having no preconceived notions about the defined contribution space may have helped Stuart think outside the box. He explains some of the changes he made to the existing structure to align it with the goals and values of the company as a way to gain more flexibility for innovation.   [11:00] Stuart shares his take on why innovation is critical in the retirement space, despite litigation being a huge deterrent. He opens up about the class action lawsuit Intel was served following his changes.   [14:45] Bob Hunkeler has a background in science and had never planned on managing corporate retirement plans. He shares the journey that took him to Switzerland and back to the States with an opening in the pensions department.   [17:40] Bob touches on how the company philosophy has affected the roughly 18 billion dollars in retirement assets he manages. International Paper has both an IP savings plan and a 401k. Bob explains how they construct their portfolios as well as his take on decumulation.   [21:35] Because there was a kind of vacuum in the retirement planning space and as such, Bob’s ideas and innovations were an encouraging way of filling this space. He speaks to his motivation for making headway in this space.   [23:55] Putting their money where their mouth is, International paper provides a complete suite of retirement planning services to its employees. Bob speaks to the continued innovation he tries to drive in the company by building bridges.   [25:44] Bob and Stuart share their takes on the title of the podcast!   [28:46] Josh thanks his guests for sharing their stories and opens up the discussion for further innovation on the corporate side of the retirement planning space.   The Accidental Plan Sponsor will be back this summer! Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.   Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor   Mentioned in this episode: More about Stuart Odell on LinkedIn. More about Robert Hunkeler on LinkedIn.

In the first two episodes of this series, we examined the history of the employer-based retirement system. But how is it working out today? The success of the creation and implementation of the employer-based 401(k) and other defined contribution retirement plans is seen not only in its exponential growth in all measurable metrics but also in the fact that it has succeeded in helping millions of Americans retire well. That said, the system, as it’s designed and operating today, is far from perfect, stranding some without access to the tools of a comfortable retirement and discouraging attempts at innovation. In this episode, host Josh Cohen asks respected industry leaders to grade the system on four crucial factors of success: Access, Adequacy, Alignment, and Innovation.  Featured Guests: • Lori Lucas, President & CEO of the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI) • Lew Minsky, President & CEO of the Defined Contribution Institutional Investment Association (DCIIA)   Key Takeaways: [:34] How is the retirement system doing today? To answer this question, your host Josh Cohen recruited some of his long-time friends, who happen to be industry experts.   [2:27] Lori Lucas is the President and CEO of the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI). She shares what they do and how she came to be in this position.   [5:04] Lew Minsky is the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Defined Contribution Institutional Investment Association (DCIIA). He talks about getting bit by the public policy bug and his journey to co-founding the DCIIA.   [8:27] With the help of our experts we’re going to be grading the system according to 4 aspects, red pens out everyone.   [9:24] Grade 1: Access. Lori weighs in with the ERBI research on 401k’s and grades according to organization size. Lew adds a caveat before handing out easy grades here.   [13:29] Grade 2: Adequacy. Lew feels adequacy scores higher than access if one important condition is met, however Lori’s enthusiasm wavers.   [18:00] Grade 3: Alignment. This relates to the sponsor entity’s interest being aligned with the successful retirement of employees. Lori’s grade is linked to the importance of promoting overall employee financial wellness. Lew offers that theory and practice diverge on this front and that there is an elephant in the room...   [24:20] Grade 4: Innovation. DCIIA has been hosting an annual excellence and innovation award, Lew mentions that efforts will need to continue. Both Lew and Lori speak to the elephant of litigation coming back into the room.   [27:48] Lori and Lew weigh in on the podcast name: The Accidental Plan Sponsor!   [29:30] Josh offers a summary of the system, thanks Lew and Lori for their contribution to this episode, and opens up the discussion for episode 4 on how certain plan sponsors challenged the status quo and innovated in the retirement savings space.   Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Links: The Accidental Plan Sponsor Mentioned in this episode: More about Lori Lucas, President and CEO of the Employee Benefit Research Institute. More about Lew Minsky, President and CEO of the Defined Contribution Institutional Investment Association.