Colleen Schnettler 00:00This week's episode of the Software Social Podcast is brought to you by Hopscotch Product Tours. Hopscotch Product Tours allows you to improve user onboarding with helpful product tours that guide your users to success. Also, reduce frustration by helping users learn how to use your product, without the need for demo calls. Visit Hopscotch.club today and start delighting your users with Hopscotch Product Tours. Michele Hansen 00:28So Colleen. Cloudflare. Colleen Schnettler 00:33Oh, Cloudflare. Michele HansenThis week, Cloudflare introduced their images beta to simplify your image pipeline, a simple service to store, resize, optimize, and deliver images at scale. Colleen Schnettler 00:54Yeah, I saw that. So that's a big disappointment for me because I really, when I had been thinking about how this was going to go, in my mind, I was gonna launch in Heroku, which I've done, and kind of get my product exactly where I want it to be, and then launching Cloudflare. Because I have launched a small free app in the Cloudflare marketplace before, and they have millions of users. So the distribution channel there is spectacular. So I'm a little disappointed because I felt like I had a really, really good opportunity in that marketplace. And now that they've launched their own service, like, I don't think I'm going to be able to compete with that. Michele Hansen 01:37So this came out, and you know, I saw this, this blog post, and I thought of you immediately and it's interesting. The post they have on it, they outline the difference, they call them the four fundamental questions you might answer: Where do we store images? How do we secure, resize and optimize the images for different use cases? How do we serve the images to our users reliably? How do we do all of these things at scale while having predictable and affordable pricing, especially during spikes? And what strikes me about that is there are some similarities with what you've been solving, but also there are differences. Like, Colleen Schnettler 02:12What do you mean? Michele Hansen 2:!4So, I remember you talking about images and whether you wanted to go in this whole direction of resizing and optimizing images. And your product is called Simple File Upload. It's not Simple Image Upload. And so this is like, part of what you're solving, but at the same time, you're doing other stuff, too. Colleen Schnettler 02:40Right. And when I originally launched the product, that was a big reason, is because all of the big players predominantly handle media files, and I kept running into this problem where I needed PDFs, or I needed Word docs because we were doing resumes. So that is part of the reason I started focusing on files in general. But as more and more people use it, I see pretty consistently, most people are using it predominantly for images. So I really did feel like my growth trajectory was going to be in the image space. So I am different from Cloudflare in that I would, I do multiple files, but they even have good pricing. Like, they even have, they're going to, this is going to be incredibly successful for them because they even have straightforward pricing is what it looks like. And so it doesn't make, mean I'm not gonna have a thing, right? It means maybe when I launch in Cloudflare, I focus more on the file aspect than the image aspect because they currently offer all the things I want to add, but have not yet added, right? Like it'd be, it is so frustrating as a developer to read their blog post and be like, oh, my gosh, it'd be so easy for me to add these few things they offer. And man, if I had just beaten them into the market. But you know what, it's a big market. Like, there's literally millions of people, I believe, who use CloudFlare. So, it doesn't mean there's not space for me. But I do think it means when I write my CloudFlare app, I focus more on other types of files, since they will now have, you know, this easy to implement solution that fits right in with their existing CDN’s and stuff. Michele Hansen 04:16I think that's such an important point that there are space for multiple companies in it for any given thing, you know, and I don't know if this is a result of kind of the, the sort of narrative that we're living in around companies, and especially what, you know, venture capitalists might look for in a company is they want the company that is going to become the monopoly that can charge the highest prices and have, you know, the highest profits and just eat everybody else in that industry. And that is, you know, in so many ways, the opposite of what we bootstrappers try to do and believe in and, you know, also now the US government has kind of onto tech, and all of that sort of monopoly-building. And, but I think living in that environment, we forget that like, it's okay to have a big company come into your space, or to already have big companies competing against you, and there can still be space for a small, successful company there. And, you know, I offer us up as evidence. Like, we've been competing at Google since day one. Colleen Schnettler 05:31Yeah, and I think that's one of the best decisions I made when I finally launched this product. As we've talked about before, I've been coming up with ideas and trying to launch MVPs of different things. And a lot of the things I was trying to do were like, big, cool new ideas. And as a single founder, like, in an untested market, I could not get a big cool new idea off the ground, like props to you, if you can, that's awesome. But people looked at me like I, like, they looked at me sideways when I was like, I told people, like developers what I was making, they were like, so you're making what? And they list like five other companies that do the same thing. And I was like, yes, I am. And now they're all really surprised at how successful it's been. And I think that just goes to show, like, the market was already proven for what I was doing. I focused on a really small group of people. And so far, that's been working for me. And again, I don't know, like, how that'll grow or scale or whatever. But I don't know, it's working for me right now, going into a tested market, even with big players, because the big players, if you have a customer support request to a big player, they're gonna send you to their forums, right? I know, because it's happened to me. You're like, oh, I have this problem. Can I do this thing? They're like, first thing is you get the automated chat widget that says, ‘Go look in the forums,’ and you're like, nah. And I had my first support request this week, by the way, which is kind of fun. And the person was like, it was so great. I think they were so surprised that I responded so quickly. And I, like, literally fixed the problem in a day. I think, I think the person left with like, a really positive, I mean, they told me they had a really positive experience with me. And so, kind of what you talk about what Geocodio, I think, by focusing on a small group of people, and by keeping my customer support high, hopefully I can still find a place, a space in this ginormous market of a file uploading. Michele Hansen 07:27I think you can. And to go back to what you were touching on earlier, you mentioned that you have been successful so far. And I have to ask, Colleen, how successful have you been so far? What is our numbers update for this week? Colleen Schnettler 07:47So since last week, I, one more customer converted from the free trial to paid. And so I'm at $835 MRR. Right? But curiously, that person who is paying me $250 a month has neither emailed me back nor uploaded any files. So that is a most interesting thing. So I am prepared. I mean, I'm hoping that that person sticks around, and they're just trying to get going. But I am prepared that like, if you have someone at $250 a month churn, like that's gonna hurt. So we'll see what, what that person does. But like I said, I'm just trying to offer a high level of support and keep on trucking. I do think, though, with the Cloudflare thing like, this might change my whole strategy in terms of whether I've been launched in that marketplace. Like I certainly haven't, I haven't finished serving the Heroku marketplace. There's still a lot of people in there. And, as we've talked about in the early days, is I still feel like I could do a lot in like NoCode, I just have not had time to dive into it. So this might change my growth strategy from Heroku to Cloudflare, which was my original plan. I might now do, like, Heroku to NoCode to see if I can serve those people better. I don't know, I got to talk to more people and kind of get a better idea. Michele Hansen 09:09You've been really interested in serving no coders. Colleen Schnettler 09:13It's cuz I just, I just, they're so happy when you give them file uploading. Like everyone I've talked to, in that space, like, it makes file uploading so easy for them, and kind of similar to the interviews we've had, you know, we had with Drew, where he was struggling, it's so rewarding to be able to help someone like that. To be like, oh, you this thing will take you like three to five days, and like, I can just get out of your way get, you know, do this for you, get out of your way, and then you know, you're up in five minutes. Like, I don't know, it just seems to make them really happy. And I feel like they're, they're like the hotness, right? But I feel like in this particular arena, they're an underserved market. Like, I haven't, I've only started talking to a few people using NoCode, but they're like, uploading to Airtable. So I need to find out if Airtable is backed by S3 or if Airtable, I don't know what Airtable is doing. I got to figure all that out. And I think the best way is for me just to start building things and kind of immerse myself in that community. I just feel like that's where my opportunity is because I feel like those, those folks trying to build with NoCode, they're trying to make, they're trying to make products quickly, right. Whereas developers are trying to optimize usually for the most beautiful code, which is fine, like, that's cool. But my product is ‘helps you move fast’. And those people I think, are trying to move fast. Michele Hansen 10:35So I think you said that the market is underserved. And some markets are underserved with a willingness to pay and some markets are underserved because they don't have a willingness to pay. And I'm curious if you have been able to figure out what people are currently paying for, for image upload in NoCode, or, you know, because it's not possible, they're not paying for anything or like, like, what like, what the deal is with that. Colleen Schnettler 11:08Yeah, and I am just dipping my toe into that. So I'm trying to get more involved in,, in the no code community, but my understanding and this, okay, my understanding is based on one person I spoke with who's really involved in the NoCode stuff, and, and he said, like, for people who have a lot of uploading needs, they tend to use Uploadcare. And we've talked before about how Uploadcare is both expensive and has that really nebulous pricing. But I have not actually reached around and talked to any of those people who are using Uploadcare yet. So if I want to go down that path for growth, like, there's a lot, there's a lot I have to do to get to that community and start talking to that people and see if I really do have an audience or a market there. I don't know yet. It could be that the people dabbling in NoCode aren't making money yet, and because they're not, they don't, they won't pay for file uploading. So it's really too soon for me to say. I just, I have a gut feeling that that's a good space for me to be in, that my people are going to be there. But you know, things are going great with Heroku right now. So I definitely don't want to just like, stop focusing on Heroku. Like, that's been a great traction channel for me. So it's just as we've talked about. I just got to keep talking to people and, and see what I learned, and hopefully, you know, that'll lead me down the path of which direction to grow. Michele Hansen 12:28You mentioned you've talked to one person so far, and you did just say that you need to talk to more people. I always caution that you, you know, don't make any major decisions until you've heard the same thing from at least five people. And I wonder if they're, you know, in the sort of the, you know, as Amy Hoy calls it, the digital watering holes. If you could find people like, on the Makerpad community forums, or on Reddit, or like, somewhere else where people are already talking about how they do this, and reaching out to those people. Colleen Schnettler 13:08Yeah, I totally need to do that. I think I'm still trying to figure out, that's like a step B. I mean, right now, I'm still trying to figure out the people who are actually using it. I don't even have a good idea of the Heroku people who are actually using it, who are paying me. So I think I would love to, I mean, I don't know, what is that 15, no 20 ish paying customers. Like, it'd be so cool if I could get you know, 25 to 50% of those people on a call to find out what they're doing. So I'm kind of still struggling even to figure out what people who are using it now are using it for. So I really want to exhaust the resources I have there before I start reaching out to new people.Michele Hansen 13:50Yeah, that makes sense. And, you know, for context, like, the best I've ever gotten my recruitment emails to get someone to talk to me is like 8 to 10%. So, Colleen Schnettler 14:01So that's good to know. Michele Hansen 14:02I think it's just a volume question for you at this point. Colleen Schnettler 14:08Right. Right. So, so that's, I mean, I gotta I gotta pound the pavement. I haven't, I haven't been pounding the pavement as much as I would like. So, I think there's a lot of, a lot of that in terms of just like going on Reddit, going on these forums, reaching out to people, seeing if people talk to me, and figuring out, you know, where my audience is. But I did want to get your opinion. So last week, my accountability goal for this week was to get a testimonial up on my website. So I took very small baby steps to make that happen, and I wanted to run the testimonial by you to see what you thought of the language. Michele Hansen 14:47Did you already run it by the person that it, that said it? Colleen Schnettler 14:52No. I mean, I will before, it’s not on my website. I asked him, I asked him, I said I'm gonna write something and then I'll send it to you to approve. So if he doesn't approve it, obviously I won't put it on my website. But um, I just kind of wanted to get, I have two things, and I just kind of want to read them both to you and see what you think he said. Is that cool? Michele Hansen 15:14Yeah, sure. Colleen Schnettler 15:16Okay, so the first one would be: I got Simple File Upload up and running in minutes. The software has allowed my team to focus on what matters: supporting our customers, and leave the details of file uploading up to the software. Michele Hansen 15:28Yeah. Colleen Schnettler 15:30Okay, now, that’s the first one I got. The other one I have is: Simple File Upload allowed my team to stop fighting with file uploading and focus on what matters: our customers. We have the uploader up and running in five minutes. It really is that easy. Michele Hansen 15:44Oh, I kind of like the second one. It feels a little more, maybe it's just me, but it feels a little bit more authentic. And, yeah. Colleen Schnettler 15:53I mean, that's more actually what he said. That's, that's more of a direct quote. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I'm gonna add that today. So I get that, that testimonial up on my site. And, man, there's so much to do. Like, it's all fun things, but like, I think of all these things we talk about I know, we talked about this last week, but it's like, oh, my gosh, I can think of like, 100 things I could do right now. Michele Hansen 16:17Do you have that list of like, tasks? Colleen Schnettler 16:20I do. I do. So I took, from last week, I took the testimonial. And it was like, like, it was like little itty bitty baby steps. Like, one day I asked someone if I could use their testimonial. The next day, I bought Tailwind UI. The next day, I put the testimonial block on my site. So it's been baby steps, but it's progress, right? I mean, you got to know when you're at a time in your life where you can just take baby steps, and that's kind of where I am. So for next week, my goal is to get the, this is a bigger, bigger goal, but like, to get the preview that, like, you can practice, you can use it up on my site. And I'm gonna break that down into lots of little tasks and kind of do the same thing I did this week, which was like, one baby step at a time. And keep moving forward. Michele Hansen 17:04I hear, like, optimism and a sense of direction in your voice. Colleen Schnettler 17:10Isn't it amazing? Okay, so here's the thing is, it's like, I didn't do that much more this week than I did last week, but I'm feeling so much more optimistic, and I think it's because these tasks I did this week were tiny, right? Like, some of them took five minutes. But just that sense of progress, like, just that sense of like, I've been talking about putting a testimonial up for three weeks. And it was like this mental block, and I just couldn't do it. And so this week, kind of what we talked about, like, I broke them down into these five, literally, they're like five to 10 minute tasks. And I had a busy week, and I was tired every night, but I was able to wrap my brain around doing a tiny task. And because of that, I've made progress forward, and that feels good. Right? Michele Hansen 17:56Yeah, like, you feel accomplished. Colleen Schnettler 18:17Yeah, totally. So yeah, so I'm feeling, I'm feeling good about, about that. So, I would love to hear about your 50 people interviews. Have you done 50 interviews? Michele Hansen 18:11I have not done 50. I have done, I think 17 or 18 this, Colleen Schnettler 18:17Wait, I talked to you last week, last week. You've done 17 interviews? Oh my gosh. Michele Hansen 18:24I mean, it's been like it's, it's, it's been, it's been amazing. Honestly, I like, I'm so, I'm so moved and so grateful that so many people were willing to talk to me, like, about this. And yeah, I'm just, I'm just filled with this enormous sense of gratitude for people literally all over the world helping me with this. And I mean, like, talking to people about talking to people is just to me, like, the greatest topic. Like, I like, just, every person, I feel like I could talk to them forever, and you know, on so many of the calls that kind of ends up being like, well, I don't have anything afterwards. Like, do you have a few, and then like, then we're like, continue chatting and like going over, and I did six of these on Monday. I did five on Tuesday, which, like, I have this rule that I will only do two in a day. Because more than that, you know, the energy that goes into kind of just, sort of fully absorbing someone's perspective and kind of, you know, sort of mentally like, peeking through their closet and looking at all the nooks and crannies, like, it just takes a lot of focus. And I, it can be tiring. And so you know, years ago, like, there was a, there was a day when I did three hour-long interviews in one day, and I was just like, I was so beat. And so since then I was like, I'll only do two in a day. And then I, in my enthusiasm about this, I did six on Monday. And I was like, oh now I remember why I have that rule. But it's, it's been so like, it's been so good. And I've been learning so many things. And like, there's all these things I didn't even think about. And it's, I'm so excited. Colleen Schnettler 20:10Give us an example of something you didn't think about. Michele Hansen 20:12Okay, so one of the things that came up is that, so I had this sense that, that, you know, my audience was kind of, like, mostly people who were, you know, basically people like you, who are trying to learn how to do this, running their own companies, haven't had a chance to really talk to customers before. And then like, a little smaller audience was like, people who need a book to recommend other people who are new to this that was very practical. But that was a smaller audience. And what I learned is really, that, like, consultants really need to work with something like this, to either do this work for their clients to explain what the work is, or to teach their clients how to do it, and then, so that they can offer other higher value like, add-on services. So it's like, not only while I do the interviewing, but then help you with the analysis part run workshops on, you know, making product strategy decision making, and like, a copywriter is saying that they, they wanted to move from just writing copy to helping make product decisions, for example, or consultants who work with small software businesses who need to teach people how to do this. And so that was really exciting, because I hadn't really thought about that at all. And, you know, people are saying, oh, if you have some sort of bundle that's for consultants, that makes it easy for me to share and adapt this like, that would, you know, that would be super helpful. And I really hadn't thought about that at all. So, so that's pretty exciting. Colleen Schnettler 21:41Yeah, that's awesome. So I noticed you had a tweet this morning. And that tweet said, “If I release this book, and get tons of requests for consulting, I will consider the book of failure because it wasn't actionable enough for people to apply on their own.” Tell me more about that. Michele Hansen 22:02Yeah. And I guess I should clarify that, like, I would feel like I have failed the reader, rather than the reader themselves failing, if that makes sense. Um, I, you know, I started out in tech working at an agency like, like, doing consulting, working with clients. And I did that for four years, and, and then I kind of at one point, I decided I really wanted to be in a product business. And I've been in product businesses since. And so I personally, just, I don't want to do consulting. And, and like, there's nothing wrong with consulting. Tons of people do it. Like it's just, I'm more personally suited to a product business than a client business. That's just something I know about myself, that I enjoy a product business more. The other thing is I also like, like, I have a product business. And if I start this consultancy, like, that's going to distract me from this business I have that's already working and needs my attention. And writing this book is already distracting me enough. And then if it leads to all of this consulting work like, that does not bode well, you know, for the future of the company. And so I, so, so, so these conversations this week were really interesting because it's gotten me think of, like, how can I empower consultants to use this? Like, because I definitely see that there is space for people who would read something and then say, okay, I don't have the time to do this myself, or I need some more help in implementing this. And that, and that's valid. I don't, I don't see myself as that person. Like, if people email me with questions about stuff, or like, hey, like, what do you think of this email? Or, you know, like, whatever, like, I'm happy to reply to that. But, so I'm kind of thinking about, like, how can I empower consultants and also product leaders to work with this? And, you know, so one, one thing I've talked about is like, the frequency of a problem matters, right? And like, we've talked about this in the, in the context of file upload, right? Have like, who has a frequent need for this? It's people who are, you know, freelancers, and consultants who are making lots of sites. For this, what's interesting to me about that, too, is that the consultants and product leaders, they're the ones who have a more frequent need for this. Like a developer starting their own company, they only need to buy this book once, but a product leader who is training their team on how to interview and they might need to buy the book for their whole team, and then they change companies in a year and a half. They're going to need, they're going to need another book to recommend to that new team or consultants who are always working with new clients. And so, people like that have a recurring need for a book like this. So, which, for a book that is going to have a marketing budget of zero, it isn't going to be helpful to have that kind of, you know, rely on those sort of existing behaviors and ways of spreading the book. So I don't really know how that's going to come together, but it's definitely interesting and just, you know, goes to show how talking to customers leads to business opportunities that you never realized were there. Colleen Schnettler 25:10Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, as a developer, as a consultant developer, the joke is kind of like, you should write a book so you get higher value consulting, right? Because it gives you, you know, domain expertise. You're like, oh, I wrote a whole book on this, and so you get higher value consulting. So that's why I was kind of surprised when I saw your tweet because I would think the book gives you so much clout that, like, you could almost name your price going in as a expert in this field. Michele Hansen 25:42Yeah. And I think it's confusing to people that I don't want to do that. Colleen Schnettler 25:47I think it's confusing to people. I think it's just because generally speaking, I think it's just confusing, because you're not optimizing for money. Michele Hansen 25:56Yeah, this is totally a labor of love.Colleen Schnettler 25:58This confused, this confuses people. Right. Yeah. No, I totally get what you're saying. And I'm, I'm curious, too, how it has been balancing. I mean, if you did 17 customers interviews in a week, you clearly don't have time to do anything else. Are you feeling like this is taken away from Geocodio? Are you guys like, it's been fine? Like, how has that been impacting you? Michele Hansen 26:23I think it's actually been, been fine. Like, I, I did still do a lot of Geocodio work, like, you know, especially like, so I'm having calls with people all over the world. And so, you know, a couple of those calls have been at 8am. Like, if I'm talking to India, or Australia, a bunch of them have been at 9pm with the US, and those aren't times I'm normally working, like, let's be honest, at eight o'clock in the morning, when I sit down at my desk, like, I'm just like, reading the news, and like, putzing around on Twitter, like, I'm not doing anything, really. So, um, and then also, um, you know, we so, like, we got started with it with a VA about a month, month and a half ago, like, I finally got someone from Squared Away, and she's been so awesome, and I had her write a bunch of landing pages. And I think those landing pages were too good, because like, our inbound volume from, like, new customer support, and like, you know, sort of business development or like, sales inquiries, like, has been really high in the past two weeks. So it's almost a good thing that I didn't like, you know, write any more landing pages or whatnot this week, because it's like, this is, this has been working too much. Like, we need to stop. Michele Hansen 27:40Yeah, so, so, but like, I can't keep doing this forever, right. Like, I can't be spending hours talking to people about my side project, especially where, you know, if a call is at nine o'clock at night, and you know, sometimes goes till 9:30 or 10, like, I'm, I'm tired, I'm not getting time to relax, and that takes a toll. So, I have more calls next week, but not nearly as many. Um, and I'm more so focusing on writing, like, I'm on the third, not version, but like, you know, I've got the third draft out there as of this morning. So you know, it'sColleen Schnettler 28:20Wow, that's amazing. Michele Hansen 28:22Yeah, I’m getting a ton of really good feedback. Like, I'm super, super grateful. And like, people are being honest with me and being like, you know, this isn't working, or like, this is confusing, but also when they like stuff. So, yeah. Colleen Schnettler 28:33Wow. So are you still going for 50? Are you going to decrease that number? Michele Hansen 28:38I think, I intentionally made that number high, so that it would make people more comfortable in talking to me. Like, because 50 is like, really high. So it was, it very much creates this like, like, not only do I want to talk to people, like, I need to talk to you if I'm going to get to this number. And so I will end up around 25 people. And that's half of that, but I'm, honestly I'm, like, I'm thrilled with that. And I am, I think it says quite a lot that so many people are willing to talk to me. And then at the end, they're like, thank you so much. And I'm like, you're the one who's giving me valuable information. No, I mean, I just, I have this notebook, like, sitting next to me on my desk right now. And it's just like, full of notes. And I have so many recordings and yeah, it's, it's, it's been amazing. Colleen Schnettler 29:33Awesome. How are you feeling, like, how's your imposter syndrome with the book because I know you said last week you were feeling kind of the, the stress and anxiety of doing this is, this is something totally new for you. Michele Hansen 29:47Yeah, I think, you know, I've been able to drill in on it a little bit more. And I don't think it's imposter syndrome. I think it's, it's finding a way to market this in a book that aligns with what my goals are, and is done in a way that I feel comfortable with. So I don't know what those goals are, right? So, I'm literally just doing this because it's something that, that I have needed. And, and, and I think I also, I have this kind of you know, that, when you're selling a product that people don't need, or they don't know they need, that's very different from the product like, from how Geocodio was sold. People already know that they need geocoding, or they need Census field, like, they need, they know they need that, and they're just looking for something that does that. With a product that people don't know they need, that lends itself to a different set of marketing tactics. And quite frankly, some of those can be very scammy, and making lots of promises to people and not always delivering on them. I'm not saying that that's always how it is, but there are many examples of that. And I think that's where that reticence comes from, is I have just, I'm just like, allergic to anything scammy, and so I want to find a way to do this in a way that delivers exactly what has been promised to people, or more. So, and I think I can do that. And I think that's not necessarily about the actual tactics, that's more of how things are structured, and how I market it. And you know, to what I was saying earlier, like, if I can rely on existing behaviors to sell the book, like, you know, product leaders recommending it to their teams, like, that’s a sale of five books, and that didn't require me, you know, bombarding someone with emails, getting them to buy like, a package or whatnot, like, which, you know, can work but like, I just, I don't, that just doesn't feel like me. So um, yeah, I think I have a lot of thoughts on that. But I think I will find a way. And actually, there's a friend of ours who I've, who I've asked to, like, come on in a few weeks to kind of like, coach me through it, because he wrote a book, like, self-published a book. And, the other, so the other thing about this is people are like, oh, well, like, what about doing a course or like, a video course, or like, all this stuff, and I'm like, I hadn't even thought about that, like, so that could be something that comes later. I feel like I have to get the base content out. And then I can sort of reshape it, like, I can repackage it in different things. But I have to get that core product of the book out first. But there could be lots of different things, and you know, some people learn better over audio or video than they do reading. So, um, so yeah, there's kind of space for lots of different directions to go with this. Colleen Schnettler 33:12I mean, Michele, it sounds like you're starting another company. You realize that, right? Michele Hansen 33:16I know, I know. I need to like, not do that. That’s just, like, that’s the problem. Colleen Schnettler 33:20Exactly what it sounds like. Michele Hansen 33:22I need to not do that. This needs to be like, a little fun thing, where I feel like I'm contributing back to the world, and I am, you know, compensated for the time that I have put into it. And like, you know, it's always nice if you know, I'm, you know, something I like, think about developers how, you know, if you guys ever, like lose your job, or whatever, like, developers can just go start consulting. Now, there's more complications that it's not like, it's, it's easy, but like, people recognize the skills of developers, and it's an easier hill to climb to go get a client than somebody coming from the product discipline like me, where, you know, like, knock on wood, like, you know, I don't know, company collapses tomorrow, like, I don't feel like I could just go out and like, be like, hire me as your product consultant person. Colleen Schnettler 34:15Yeah, it's kind of nebulous, like, what is a product consultant? What is their value? Michele Hansen 34:20Exactly. But it's like, this is a very concrete skill, and so in a way it's like, and, and like I said, I hope it never comes to this, but you know, like, it's almost a professional insurance policy that like, I can decide right now that I don't want to do consulting. But if it turns out that this book has done well, like, I could decide 5 or 10 years from now that I want to, and so it’s, yeah, it's kind of like, I don't know if that makes sense, like thinking about it as an insurance policy, but, so who knows? Colleen Schnettler 34:49Well, let's wrap up today's episode of the Software Social Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. You can reach us on Twitter @SoftwareSocPod. We will talk to you next week.