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PERSPECTIVES With Remi (Sharon) Pearson
63 minutes | Jul 28, 2021
Peter Singer - Meet The World's Most Influential Philosopher | Perspectives Podcast
Perspectives - Peter Singer SHOWNOTES[00:09:00] I present to you, Mr. Peter Singer. Thank you for joining us today. Peter: You're very welcome, Sharon. It's good to be with you. Remi: Thank you. So, I'd like to get started. I'm really curious to know what you're currently thinking about and working Peter: on right now, I'm working on a revised edition of Animal Liberation.That's a book that I first published in 1975. It's never been out of print but the most recent edition really is from 1990. By that, I mean, there are, there are editions which looked like this or recent. There's 2009, when I think exactly that's, that's one of the paperbacks, it does have a new preface and it has some additional material at the end, but the basic text in between the preface and the supplementary material at the end.Is pretty much unchanged for 30 years. So that's not good, obviously. If you want to keep up with what's going on in terms of factory farming kinds of experiments that are performed on [00:10:00] animals and of course the impact of climate change and what that's done to our thinking about eating meat.We really, you know, I really need to make some changes, a lot of changes to the book. So that's my current project. Remi: Well, I wasn't going to stop it, but we will. And we'll talk about it. Animal Liberation and your book, you released it in 1975 and the landscape of animal liberation or animal welfare was very different than can you paint a scene of what it was like and what was the impetus for writing this one ended up being a completely transformational book for animal welfare around then.Peter: Well, price is one way of getting people who are listening today to see how much the scene has changed is to say that my interest in animals and my thinking about the ethics of what I was eating got started just a few years before that in 1970 to be precise. When I happened to have a conversation with a fellow graduate students.So, I was 24 [00:11:00] years old. I was, I'd been to university in Melbourne and then I'd gone to Oxford to do my graduate work. And I happened to meet a fellow Canadian who when we went in for lunch, asked if there was meat in the sauce on top of the spaghetti. And when he was told there was, he took a salad plate instead And so after we'd finished our conversation, we were having I asked him what his problem with meat was.And you know, I think this was really the first conversation I'd had with a vegetarian. Maybe he was the first vegetarian that I'd met or perhaps I'd met some Indian vegetarians for Hindu reasons, but certainly the first person who I'd met a vegetarian, who just had a straightforward kind of ethical answer to that question that he didn't like the way we treat animals and didn't really want to be complicit in the way animals were being treated.And so, you know, anybody who. Listening to that. I was been a university. You can hardly get their head around the fact that you can be 24 years old and not have met a vegetarian and not really thought about that. [00:12:00] But that's how it was. And that's pretty much how it was in 1975 when the book came out.And you know, people did find it very strange to see a sort of serious argument about why we shouldn't be eating meat based on concern for the animals. Because you know, if people thought about animal welfare at all, they thought about dogs and cats maybe about horses, but they didn't really think about chickens and pigs and calves.Remi: Yeah. Part of what you described when you talk about that book and why it came about, which I really loved was it was a very sentimental attitude in the movement at the time. And the way you felt that you could contribute to the movement was with. You didn't say clear thinking with rationality. Can you speak a little bit to that for those rare individual, listening to this podcast who doesn't know who you are or the work that you've contributed to our planet and to our thinking, what was the thinking back then that led you to believe this is where I can contribute.And maybe this will be a way to start [00:13:00] introducing consequentialism and utilitarianism and some of your other philosophical bedrock. Peter: Right? So, in terms of, you know, how I can contribute it was sort of somewhat accidental that I ended up doing philosophy. I had gone to university planning to study law and then an advisor thought.Find the law course a bit dry. And why didn't I combine it with an arts course? So, I started doing combined dance law course. Then I got to enjoy the outside of it more and I got offered a scholarship to go on with graduate work in that field Went into philosophy. I enjoyed it. I found it interesting.But you know, it, wasn't going to make a significant contribution to the world. I wasn't, you know, I couldn't say that that was my primary motivation at that time, but this was the late sixties and then early seventies. And of course, there were a lot of radical ideas around and radical political movements including opposition to the war in Vietnam, which I was part of in Australia.[00:14:00] And then there was the civil rights movement, the black liberation movement. And so, there were ethical ideas floating around and it was always more the ethics and political philosophy side of philosophy that I was interested in that was. Where, where it makes a difference, I guess, where it has an impact on the way we live directly.So that's, that's why, when, when I started thinking about this issue of animals and then as you correctly say at that time there wasn't a real animal movement or in so far as there were anti-cruelty organizations mostly appealing to people's sentiments. So, there would be cute pictures of puppies and kittens and asking you to help rescue them, something of that sort.But there was, there was nothing really saying that even if you don't love animals there are still something seriously wrong about the way we are treating animals. And I never did think of myself as an animal lover and I still don't. But I do think that there are things very seriously wrong about [00:15:00] the way we treat animals and on a vast scale.So this is not a small issue, right? When you take account of the fact that there's over 70 billion animals raised and killed for food each year, the great majority of them indoors in factory farms. It's the very major issue. Remi: One of the things I like about sentimentality when it comes to animal welfare is it can get the conversation started.So, you have a very rational and I'd love you to speak more about utilitarianism. Aspect to it, which I really admire, but I didn't get to my 18 years ago, I became a vegetarian and vegan for a while. I didn't get there because of the reasons you've given that it's the right thing to do. And it reduces the most suffering or increases the most pleasure I got there because my health suffered, and I went on an elimination diet and I needed to find recipes for a vegan.And there were barely any 20 years ago. And in reading recipes, I read about animal welfare. So, the way I got there was very indirect. So, what role do you think can be [00:16:00] played in sentimentality or in other roads that get us to the conclusions you've come to?Peter: Well, of course, a lot of people do get to these conclusions through.Love for animals in one way or another. One of the greatest campaigners in the late 20th century for animals was a man. I got to know called Henry Spira. And, and he was a great social activist working for blacks in the American south and for underprivileged people everywhere. But he only started to see animals as underprivileged when a friend who was going overseas, dumped a cat on him.And he never really thought about animals, but basically the cat seduced him. And, and, you know, more or less around that time, he came across some of my writing and that, that did help. But you know, yeah, without the cat, maybe we would have lost one of those great container campaigners.I'm not putting down a love for animals at all. I think it's a, it's a great way to get people to understand that animals are individual beings, that their lives can go well or badly for them. [00:17:00] And that we should be caring about them. We shouldn't just draw the boundaries of moral concern around our own species.So yeah, it definitely plays a good role, but you know, you asked about my utilitarianism. So philosophically I hold the view that the right thing to do is the action that will have the best consequences and by best consequences I, and the classical utilitarian’s mean do the most to promote happiness and reduce suffering.So, from that it straightforwardly follows that given that animals can suffer at least many animals can suffer We ought to be including them within our concerns of, of what we do. And we shouldn't just say, well, morality is only for humans. You know, there are some people who say it, but many more people who think that, but you know, we certainly think when it comes to humans, that even if you're not particularly rational or nevertheless, you can, we, we still think, we think humans have a certain moral status [00:18:00] that makes it wrong to do things to them, even if they lose or never have the higher cognitive abilities.But when it comes to animals, we say, well, they, you know, they don't think they're not, self-conscious, they're not autonomous, they're not moral agents, all of these things. So, so they don't really can't. But I, I think, I think that's just a mistake and it's, as I say, not something we consistently apply within our own species.So we shouldn't use it as a way of drawing lines between our species and other species. Remi: You speak really eloquently about species ism and particularly around chimpanzees. I remember back in 2014, there was an article you wrote in this book that you've written, which I love the ethics in the real world.And you're speaking about the rights of a chimpanzee and in 2014, I understand it went to court in Europe to get a chimpanzee, to have human rights. Talk about how the logic of utilitarianism arrives at that point, where we elevate [00:19:00] that's really poor choice of words to the same level as how we prize human life.Peter: Yeah, well, as I say, I think it is a critique of, of drawing the boundaries of rights just around species and it's saying. There are other things that matter. Now, now this particular case you mentioned was based on a chimpanzee and chimpanzees do have kind of capacities to, to think, and to reason to a certain extent and solve puzzles and there's research showing that they anticipate things in the future.They're thinking ahead as well, not to the same extent that we do, but significantly. So I think the chimpanzee was really taken as a kind of test case and basically challenging the courts to say, well, how is it that we're saying all human beings have rights irrespective of their mental capacities, but he is an animal whose mental capacities are clearly superior to that of newborn babies and superior to that of some [00:20:00] profoundly intellectually disabled humans.And yet this chimpanzee doesn't have rights. Why, why should that be? So, I think that's basically a way to try. Bridge the Gulf that both. Law and popular morality place between humans and animals. And I think the thinking is that if you can do that for chimpanzees, well, we'll also bring some of the other animals closer.And although the 2014 case in, in Europe didn't succeed, there are other cases going on. And right now, the New York state court of appeal, which is pretty high Cape the highest court in the New York state system is going to hear a case on behalf of an elephant. Who's been very miserably in prison.Solitary for many years in, in a zoo in New York. So that will be interesting. And I mean, it just the fact that the court has agreed to hear this case is something of a breakthrough. I think it's the, the highest [00:21:00] level court in the English speaking well anyway, to, to hear a writ of habeas Corpus which is an ancient legal writ for, you know, basically it says, give me the body, you know, show me if, if the king was holding someone who, you know why, why can't, why can't you give that person over to me?Why are you holding him? And it's it's if the court says it does apply to an animal, that would be something of a breakthrough. Remi: How do you think the animal liberation movement is doing since 1975? It's obviously come a long way. There's a lot more vegans. It's more normal conversation. Sit down in a restaurant and San vegetarian are men.What I began being a vegetarian 20 years ago, it stopped conversations and restaurants had nothing. I remember traveling Italy and couldn't find anything but rice to have. It was so strange all those years ago. That's really basic and anecdotal. How far do you think the movements?Peter: Well, it has come a long way in, in that respect and the understanding of people choosing [00:22:00] not to eat meat or even to be vegan.And what that means. People wouldn't have understood what the word vegan meant 40 or even 20 years ago. So, it's come a long way. There it's come a long way in terms of having some political influence and being recognized by governments as a group that they ought to listen to, that people do care about.But it hasn't come that far in terms of changing the conditions, which got me to think that what we're doing to animals is, is wrong and wrong on a vast scale, because there are still billions of animals in factory farms. The conditions might have improved a little bit. Might've been tweaked a little bit with some regulations in some countries.Particularly the European union has banned some practices that unfortunately still exist in Australia and still exist in much of the United States. Although there are now seven states, including California, that don't allow hands to be kept in cages. For example, so, so we're making [00:23:00] progress, but it's been a long time, you know, it's, you couldn't say it was rapid progress, unfortunately.And I'd like us to move forward a lot faster. Remi: My, if I was queen for a day, I would declare that all ever twice had to be renamed, slow to houses and had to have glasses. Peter: Well, exactly. In fact though, we could just do it with webcams. Now we really have the technology. We don't need glass walls and why not factory farms as well.You know, why not everywhere where animals has, why not laboratories? Why doesn't the public have a right to see what's going on in these places? Yeah. Remi: Al morality seems to move with proximity and morality meets. It goes up. If we approximate to the suffering, we have a view on that suffering, but the suffering this at a site where I can not having a view of, but it is the same suffering that is contributing to our choice of what we can eat or whatever.We need to close the proximity gap and suddenly your ethics will be. Peter: Yes. [00:24:00] I have, I hope so. I hope we can do that, but you're right. We, we like to look away from things that are unpleasant and we just continue doing, supporting them indirectly because essentially buying a product of the animal exploitation industry is all the support it needs from us.And we continue to do that. But if somebody says, you know, do you know what life is like for an animal and a factory farm? A lot of people would just say, no, don't, don't tell me, I don't want to know your spoil my enjoyment of my next chicken pig or whatever it might be. Remi: Hmm. Thank you, Peter. And can I also, just on behalf of my team here, who just loved that you're here.Thank you for the movement you created and how far you have fought for a cause that matters so much. It's this is going to go to three, 400,000 people, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of them saying you're extraordinary and your philosophy and the views. Put forward in the face of controversy and you still just hold the line.I think it's extraordinary. Peter: Well, thanks very much. [00:25:00] I don't see that controversy as a reason for changing your, your views. Good arguments might be, but they're not controversy, but I certainly appreciate the opportunity to communicate with your 300,000. Yeah. Remi: Yeah. I think it'll probably be more with Peter Singer.Yeah, I think that's the bottom baseline. I, what I want, we got into an, a liberation because that's the work you're working on now, but what I've been thinking about, if I was to talk to Peter singer, the question I want to ask him, which I puzzle over is how do you determine what's right or wrong or good or bad?I struggle even with utilitarianism and perhaps we can speak about it through that frame, or you can bring some themes in, but how do you think about what's good or bad or right or wrong? Peter: Well, I do think about it through the frame of utilitarianism. That's something that I, I came to obviously over a period of time and I think about it very often and you know, you're certainly not the only one who doesn't find that easy to accept.And there are [00:26:00] other very good philosophers who take different views. And of course, I listen to them and take a look at why they hold the views they do and why they don't accept utilitarianism. And that that's an ongoing debate and, and it should be, that's what philosophy is like, we don't try and enforce conformity or agreement.We encourage open debate because that's the way in which we better understand our own positions and the positions of others. But for me you know, somebody. Ideas like, like rights or duties. I want to know where they come from and I don't get good answers. And in fact, when you ask people, well, what rights do people have or what do you do and rights clash.I don't get very clear answers on that. It's not that I'm opposed to talking about rights whether it's human rights or animal rights, but I think they have to be derived from something. And when I ask myself, what can they be derived from? It does seem to me that the only possible answer is a [00:27:00] better.Better lives for all of those beings whose lives can go well or badly from their own internal perspective. And that really means being super conscious beings who can feel something, and you know, feel pain or pleasure have a good day or a bad day or good life or a bad life. So, I think we that's, that's how we should be thinking about things and we should be thinking about things, not just.For ourselves or our country, or even for our species, but for all Sandy and beings. And not just for those who are there, here and now, but also for those who will exist in future, as far as we can predict the future. And of course, to go back to what you were saying a few moments ago, not just for those who are in close proximity, tourists, but also those on the other side of the world who might be complete strangers.So, so that's the kind of framework that I use. It's it's one that's impartial between Sandy and beings, just giving [00:28:00] equal consideration to their interests. Whatever those, where the interests are comparable or similar and trying to do what you can to make the world a better place in those terms.Remi: Okay. So, I guess the reason for my question is I'm noticing there's a lot more advocacy these days for hurt feelings being worthy of stopping a message. And then I listened to what you said about. Good and bed in another interview you did. And I'm finding a conflict between the two. How do you not hurt someone's feelings?If you have a controversial idea? And if we agree that meant to be doing the least harm, does that mean we stopped saying it? At what point does this moral code kick in? How much hurts feelings are we allowed to tolerate or cause something? Peter: Well, there's no answer to how much hurt feelings in general, because it depends on what's on the other side.So certainly, we should not [00:29:00] gratuitously hurt someone's feelings. And a lot of the nastiness that you find on social media, where people do abuse each other and sling off is, is quite wrong because it's not serving any real purpose. You know, maybe people are letting off steam for themselves, but it's not serving a purpose.On the other hand, when it comes to controversial ideas, if the ideas are ones that have the possibility of. Being right. And of making a positive difference to the world then I think we should be prepared to accept a certain amount of hurt feelings. I don't think we can say that you can't express an idea that might hurt someone's feelings, because it would be hard to say anything new or different if that were the case.Right. So a lot of the things that we now take for granted, you know like let's say the idea that people were the same sex orientation, or to be able to marry that would have been regarded as [00:30:00] extremely offensive to many religious people who thought that this was a terrible perversion and contrary to God's will.And so on, you know, we wouldn't, you could imagine those people. Took the standards of today saying, well, you know, we, we have to make sure that nobody is allowed to express those views. We have to cancel them if you want to use that so that these dangerous and perverted views contrary to God's will don't get into the community.But obviously that would have been a bad thing to do. So we have to be prepared to accept that if ideas are serious ideas that have the potential to make a difference in the world and a positive difference, we have to allow, I think, ideas to be exchanged and to be argued about. And that's the way in which we find out what is right.And what isn't, Remi: the way I'm seeing it is. If we're not willing to explore bad ideas, we risk not ever getting to the good idea. Cause I don't always say what I mean the first time, as well as I want to say it when I'm building a program [00:31:00] here or something like that, but it leads to an idea of significance down the track.But if it wasn't that to flourish in the beginning, when it was very misguided or completely off base, it never would have come to fruition and touched people's lives. Surely, it's an imperative that this idea of freedom to explore different ideas that may conflict with somebody else's needs to be encouraged.Peter: Yes. I agree entirely with that. And not only do we need to have, you know, criticism and discussion to refine our own ideas and improve them, but even if somebody you know, even if an idea is correct, I think people don't really understand why it's being held, unless you allow somebody to object to it and then somebody else will respond to that objection and lay out the reasons why we hold this at it.Because if you don't have that, it's just like a dogma. It's just something. Well, this is something we all believe, but why do we believe it? You know, do we allow it to be [00:32:00] questioned and challenged? And has it withstood those challenges? If it has, then we have an answer to why we believe it. If it hasn't, maybe we don't have any.Remi: How would you describe the state of the academy right now, given the amount of controversy around controversial ideas and professors being canceled or younger people in the academy being feeling intimidated. How would you describe the state of play and what is it you would like to see? Peter: Yeah.Terrible as it's sometimes being painted, but it's certainly also not as good as it could be. And I do count myself fortunate that I'm not standing at as a young academic without any security of position in, at this particular time because who knows, I might not have gone further. Remi: So I'm thinking of one idea you may have had that came up in Germany that perhaps wouldn't have been that helpful if it was this time.Peter: Right. So you're talking about my ideas about parents having the [00:33:00] possibility of euthanasia for their severely disabled infants. Yes. That's that? That's certainly a vote, a lot of controversy and still occasionally does. Yeah. I haven't seen arguments to suggest that I was wrong, but perhaps I have come to realize that People are not always as well informed about the prospects for their disabled children as they should be.And so now when I talk about this, I encourage parents to make contact with organizations, for people with the disability that their child might have, and try to learn more about what kind of a life prospect their child may have, or. So, so I, I have learned something from that controversy anyway, even if I haven't completely changed my views, but but to get back to your question about, about the academy, I've been disappointed that some of the, he does have academic institutions have not stood up for freedom of speech as firmly as they should have and have yielded to protests and petitions and so on.When I think they shouldn't [00:34:00] I'm, I'm fortunate that when I was appointed to Princeton in 1999, there were some protests because of my views about euthanasia and abortion as well. And one. Members of the board of trustees that is the governing body of Princeton called for my appointment to be rescinded.But the president of the universities stood up strongly for academic freedom and was supported by every other trustee on the board. So I'm glad that that happened. And I'm pretty confident that that would happen again at Princeton with the president that we have today. But obviously there are some other academic institutions around the world where people don't stand up in that way.Remi: How would you like to say it other than the latest standing up, what would be the invitation that you would put out that perhaps we need to stop bringing back into academia or introduce for the first time there? Peter: Oh, so I think what we need to bring back is a greater respect for freedom of thought and [00:35:00] discussion and somewhat less sensitivity.To people being offended. I think that that has been taken too far and people have extreme stances on things that have caused offense. And that certainly wasn't, wasn't the case when I was starting out as an academic. So yeah, I'd like to see more robust discussions. I'd also like to see less political partisanship in a way.I, I have a feeling now that people. Let's say if they're progressive, if they're on the left side of the political spectrum they feel they have to adopt the whole package of positions. You know, I certainly consider myself on, on, on that side of the spectrum in many areas, but I don't feel that I have any obligation to support everything that's said.And there are some things that are said by people on that side that I will, will disagree with it. And I think it's much better to respond issue by issue than to take [00:36:00] up a whole group and say yeah, well, this is what progress is believed. So this is what I do. Remi: Let's throw religion in there. It, I would say maybe that as religion goes down, secularism comes up, nothing's changed in the human beings, desire to connect, to belong and to know what they stand for.As religious dogma decreases all the dogmas seem to increase. Do you see any parallels? Is that anything you've given thought to? Peter: I've certainly given thought to in a way, I suppose the resilience of religious belief, which you know, if you'd asked me 50 years ago whether it would be as strong today as it is, I would have said, no, I think it's, it's on the decline.And it's particularly in those nations where people have high levels of education, it will continue to decline. But that, you know, that hasn't happened. Maybe it has declined somewhat over that period and it, depending on which country you're talking about. But, but part of the reasons for [00:37:00] that resilience is I think, as you say, people have a need to belong.And the question is for some people they're a church or mosque or synagogue has been that place. And is there really something. That can replace it now. I think that's, you know, again, that does vary from country to country and the strength of your institutions that you might be part of and your group of friends, but I think it's, it's part of the reason why secular view hasn't become more or less universal among, among people with some education.Remi: Hmm, morality seems to be difficult for humans. We seem to wrestle with it. What are your thoughts on how to bring a moral frame to decision-making? How do you approach morality? What are your thoughts on it? And perhaps throw into the mix sentimentality and your thoughts on that? Because we do seem to squish them all up together, [00:38:00] Peter: right?We do. So one of the things that I think about when I approach moral issues is I try to distinguish my gut responses what you might call a yak reactions from my reason judgments. So. You know, I think we are clearly evolved beings. We have evolved from social mammals over millions of years.We have, you know, our closest relatives of the other great apes because we are also great apes. And we know a lot more now about the behavior. Great apps and of other social mammals. And we also know a lot more about what goes on in our brains. When we're asked about moral dilemmas, there've been scientists like Josh green.Who've asked people moral dilemmas while they're having their brain scanned and see what pits of their brain are active at that particular time. So we know now that we have these kinds of instantaneous responses to descriptions of certain situations [00:39:00] which, which visceral, which we might say no, that's wrong, but I think we also know enough to say these are biologically evolved.These helped our ancestors to survive and to reproduce and. Ensure that children survived for millions of years. And so they have been to some extent hardwired into a psychology, but that doesn't mean that they're the best way of approaching questions in the 21st century where things are very different.And this goes to one of the things that you said earlier about when we're in proximity to people or to animals for that matter, we'll respond much more strongly than if we're merely thinking about. Distant strangers or animals far from, and that's because for all of those millions of years, we lived in small face-to-face societies.Most people think that that humans lived in groups of between one and 200. So we [00:40:00] knew everyone in those societies. It was a lot of mutual helping, obviously, where you help them. And they helped us in times of need. And we responded to them, but we didn't really know or care in the same way for people who might be living just on the other side of the mountain Ridge of our valley.And so we, you know, when, when, when we now have much greater ability to assist people on the other side of the world and we're in, we're much more interwoven with them, as of course the pandemic shows. We didn't get the pandemic from within Australia. It came from outside. Then we, we, we have to change.We have to think on a larger, more global scale and that kind of small group morality that is still wired into us in some respects really needs to change, or we need to change the decisions we make so that they do have a broader focus. Remi: How does that reconcile with your views on border management, international [00:41:00] border management?Peter: Well, I think there are two things that I want to say on this one is that as I said earlier, my morality is quite impartial and the interest and wellbeing of somebody who comes from the other side of the world shouldn't catalyst for that reason and the interest and wellbeing of my fellow Australians.But at the same time, I recognize that that is a rational take on the issue, which. For most people is not going to be, be dominant. You know, they're, they're all capable of taking that view of it and maybe they have some attraction to it, but they also have this more visceral response that you know, strangers are not as good some way as the people that I know and associate with.There's kind of a certain element of, of xenophobia, of fear or hatred of, of strangers that I think still. Resides within many people. And I regret the fact that it [00:42:00] does, but we can't just ignore it. I think we can't just say, well, so let's open our borders that would not lead to a good situation because of the hostility of many people in, in any countries.It's not particularly about Australia in, in any countries to an influx of a large number of strangers, particularly people who don't look like them or don't, you know, have different religions or different customs. So so in a democracy anyway, I think that I, I, I do not advocate that governments take a sort of open borders stance.That seems to me to be. To be a mistake. And obviously the political parties that are more likely to do that would be the political parties that I have more sympathy with and whose policies I generally endorse. But they are not going to achieve office if they take that stance. And so therefore not only a good policy on accepting asylum seekers and refugees would be lost, [00:43:00] but good policies on climate change, good policies on greater assistance for disadvantaged people within our own country.Better policies on foreign aid. All of those things would be lost. And that's why I understand that politics is a matter about what's possible about a compromise between what your ideals are and what you may be able to achieve if you're successful. Political elections. So, so that's, that's why I don't really take the stance of saying that any, any political party that restricts intake of asylum seekers is doing something wrong.Remi: Okay. One of the comments you made in another interview I was listening to was that to let the borders come down into kind of color countries recently, hasn't worked that well, and it has it wasn't in a phobia, you addressed, it was a market decrease in the quality of living. And there was a struggle within that country to reconsolidate the amount of help they had to provide so [00:44:00] rapidly.Do you still hold that view or. Peter: I'm not sure which interview you're referring to your Remi: country in my mind. Cause I've only referred. I've only reviewed 20. We'll leave it out. That's okay. And edit out. I have that power. So one of the things I want to talk with you about is you said on Andrew Denton, and I'm going to quote you to get it correct.That if you and your wife had a child with down syndrome, you would adopt the baby out. I would love you to talk about your thinking on this from a utilitarian point of view and have our viewers understand your mind because your rationality is so clear. And I really curious about how you come to that and.Yeah, how you come to that. Peter: Right. Okay. So I think that probably is what we should do, but to be fair, since it's only me talking, I don't want to really talk on behalf of my wife. She has her own news, which don't not necessarily identical with mine. So, so let me just say that I'm speaking. [00:45:00] So I know about the kind of person I am, but I would like to have a child who I can have eventually, obviously not, not immediately when they're very small, but who I can have the kind of conversation that you and I are having now with.And I think that's unlikely with a child with down syndrome. So to me it would not, it would be a shadow hanging over the relationship. Children with down syndrome and people with down syndrome can be very loving and warm and close. But it would be a shadow over the relationship that I think I would always feel some regret about that.My child would not grow up to be the kind of child that I could regard as fully an equal in terms of thinking about issues about in the world and thinking how best to help the world and to make the world a better place. So that's why I think I, I said that now, you know, some people are probably the discussion arose from somebody asking me, given that I think that parents ought to have options of euthanasia for severely disabled newborns, whether [00:46:00] I thought that was the right thing to do in the case of someone with down syndrome But what I I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about parents having that option is children whose lives are going to be ones of, of suffering for themselves and where you're not likely to be able to find adoptive parents who would love and cherish that child.And, and I don't think Dan syndrome is one of those cases. It's, it's certainly not necessarily a situation of suffering for the person with down syndrome. They can enjoy their lives. And because as I say, they can be warm and loving children and people there generally are couples who would be willing to adopt them.And that's particularly, so now it wasn't. So before we had a test for down syndrome in utero, because during pregnancy, because. Then, of course we had a lot more down syndrome, children being born and perhaps the number of children being born my guidance at some times, and in some places being greater than the number of parents willing to adopt a child with [00:47:00] down syndrome.But, but now that we do have those tests and there are far fewer children with down syndrome being born I think you could find loving adoptive parents. And that would be the best thing to do in those circumstances. As I say, if you had parents like me, who would rather not bring up that child, but would have had another child who might be able to meet, meet the expectations that I just mentioned, Remi: the reason I asked you that question is got nothing to do with my views on that, or really your views on it.It's just, I find it remarkable that you say these views. When I see so many academics, not saying. In any way, anything controversial, they are playing this really safe phage line. And every time I listened to an interview by you, and by now in my research, it's quite a few, you speak so plainly and clearly about your views without any hesitancy.How do you get to that? Or is that question just completely redundant to you? Because of course you should speak this way. [00:48:00] If this is the truth you've come to using or philosophical, philosophical stance I'm standing here going.Peter: You know, like I probably wasn't born like that. I did adopt fuse, which were out of the mainstream reasonably early on as, as we've been talking about, including becoming a vegetarian, when that was a very unusual stance to take. And then I also wrote something else. I hope we'll get time to talk about the obligations of affluent people to give to people in extreme poverty and how best to do that.So I defended those stances and the then I got into these discussions about euthanasia, which arose, I suppose, out of my questioning of the doctrine of the sanctity of all human life, because the doctrine of the sanctity of all human life, if it doesn't embrace the sanctity of non-human life, obviously as a, a speciesism kind of doctrine, it draws this line on the boundaries of species.And I wanted to challenge that and that got me to. Fuse that we were just talking about, [00:49:00] but I felt that you know, well, if I'm a philosopher, I should be prepared to speak up and give reasons for these views that I hold and show why they're part of a coherent and defensible set of moral views. As I believe.Remi Your mind is phenomenal. And I would love to speak with you now about effective altruism. Thank you for the segue, Peter. I was firstname.lastname@example.org and the philosophy behind it. Please share with our viewers what you consider effective altruism to be. And then we can unpack it a Peter: little bit.Right? So effective altruism is both a philosophical view on life and a social movement. The philosophical view on life is that one of your aims ought to be, to make the world a better place. Obviously, most of us are not saints. We're not going to divide ourselves a hundred percent of the time to making the world a better place.But I think it's reasonable to [00:50:00] ask people, certainly people who are not struggling to survive to have that as, as one of their aims and Then the question is, so how do you do that? Or how do you do that most effectively? Because if you're trying to make the world a better place and you say, well, I've made the world a little bit better by donating to a certain charity, let's say, and then someone else points out.But look, let's say you donated a thousand dollars to that charity. That's good. But don't you realize that here's another charity that could have helped twice as many people or could have done 10 times as much good with that thousand dollars as the one you gave to. And if that is the case, and that very often is the case, then it seems a mistake to donate to the charity that does less good.So effective altruism is about. Get the most out of your resources. And I gave the example of donating, cause that's an easy example, but your resource might not be money. It might be [00:51:00] time that you can put into volunteering or helping or particular skills that you have that you can develop to help in one way or another.But whatever it is, I think we ought to be thinking about how can I use them as effectively as possible. Remi: And would you like to speak about givewell.org? And I think there was another organization that you helped to establish. Peter: Is that right? Yes, certainly. Yeah. givewell.org was the original organization that started assessing charities, not just on the basis of their paperwork or whether they were well run or how much they spend on administration, but on the basis of what impact were they having?How much good were they doing? And, and give well, pretty early on decided that at least as far as charities helping humans are concerned, we can get the biggest bang for our buck by helping people in extreme poverty in low-income countries. And you know, they've done very thorough research on that.My, my only criticism of [00:52:00] GiveWell was that they were pretty narrow in a sense they were very nerdy because of the kind of research that they did. And they were not particularly user friendly or appealing to a broad audience. So, when I, after I wrote the life, you can save which the first edition at which came out in 2009, Remi: just given away.I understand. Peter: Sorry, I'd given Remi: away the book. You've just like chronically. Yeah, let's do a plug. So, the name of the book Peter: is if you can save there's a brand-new edition, well, 2019 edition anyway, very new. And I am now giving it away either as an eBook or as an audio book. And the audio book is each chapter is read by different celebrity who volunteered their time.So like the actress, Kristin bell, or the singer songwriter, Paul Simon, or the BBC personality, Stephen Fry, they all read a chapter. So yeah, you can go to the life, you can save.org and, and you can download [00:53:00] it for free. And that organization, the fact that there is a life, the life you can save.org came out of the book because a guy called Charlie Breslow contacted me after reading the book.He was someone who had a very successful business career but had never felt fully satisfied in his business career. And it always felt he wanted to be doing something that was more in accord with the values of helping people. And. He basically said that he was still working at that time, but he basically offered to retire from his business career and devote himself.I think he was in his fifties at the time to establishing this organization. And, and that's what he did. I'm chair of the board, but he was the chief executive for many years. He just stepped down to a slightly less intensive role. And we now have an Australian called Rick Vic strum as the as the chief executive of the world organization and also working in Australia.Of course. So. Yeah, as I was saying, that organization is designed to be broader than GiveWell [00:54:00] to disseminate the results of give world's research and a research by some other organizations that followed give well in doing that kind of impact related research. And we will be increasingly doing some of our own research as well, but I think it's, it's designed to have a broad appeal and to encourage people to think about their charitable donations and to go to the website and you can look at about 20 recommended nonprofits that we have there.And you can donate to them through the website and a hundred percent of your donation will go to the organization. We're just providing the service without taking any commission or anything like that. So, I hope people who are thing you've done anything well, we'll have a look at that and find the organization.You know, they like, and that suit their interests. They're all good ones. And they're all ones where unhesitating any record. Remi: And you recommended them based on a rationale you've literally studied how effective they are and getting the dollar to the [00:55:00] personal, the cause that needs the help rather than going on administration or any other costs.Peter: Yes, that's right. It's, it's, it's the value you get which might be saving the lives of children by preventing them dying from malaria, or it might be restoring sight in people who are blind and can't afford to get cataracts removed, or can't afford to treat and prevent other forms of blindness or providing surgery for young women.Who've given birth without medical assistance and have damaged the uterus and develop what's called a fistula, which means that there's a hole between the bowel or bladder and the uterus, and they leak feces or urine through that. And, and their lives basically are ruined in those circumstances unless they can get some surgery and the surgery is not expensive.It's a few hundred dollars and you can give a young woman her life back. So, there are, you know, we we've looked at all of those organizations and we're confident that they are using money. That's donated to them with very high effective. Remi: My understanding this is in the public domain, Peter. [00:56:00] But if you don't want to answer, that's fine.I did read in ethics in the real world. You believe we should talk publicly about our charitable donations. So, I'd like to invite you. Cause I think I do know how much you give to make a difference. It's Peter: phenomenal. Yeah. I'm, I'm giving somewhere between a third and a half of my income. Look, I'm, you know, I'm fairly fortunate.I'm Professor at Princeton university I'm half-time now because want to spend more time in Australia, but you know, professors are well paid there and I have some other earnings, obviously, you know, you've shown some of the books, I own some royalties and so I'm pretty comfortably off. So, you know, that's not a level that I'm recommending for everybody.That would I recognize be extremely tough for many people. What I do recommend is and it's, you can find it in the book, the life you can save. If you want to download that copy from. The website I recommend a kind of program, massive scale of giving. So, people are on fairly modest incomes. I suggest they start with 1% [00:57:00] just to be giving something.And if they get comfortable with that and feel that that's okay and it's something worthwhile that they're doing, and they build up from there. And on the other hand, you know, people who are very comfortably off, I think they can certainly get to the kind of level that I'm at. They can donate a third of what they're giving perhaps.And you know, guests, they will have less cash, but, but basically the research shows that consumer spending isn't really very satisfying. The long run, you know, people get a bit of a boost when they get this exciting new car or whatever else it might be, but it, it wears off whereas the fulfillment from knowing that you're helping people and doing something good in the world, doesn't wear off it.It gives you a kind of a harmony between your values and your life. But I think is very raw. Remi: This question may be too pointed. It may be, need to be an open question, but I, since I don't think you do pride, but it is an equivalent for you in how you live your practical ethics. So [00:58:00] completely, Peter: Look, I'm, I'm, I'm not really proud of what I do because I mean and, and, and, and, you know, I look, I could be doing better, as I said, I'm not a Saint.So it's, I use the term fulfillment, I think as well. You know what I feel I feel that I've done a reasonable amount of good in the world. I feel I've used the talents and capacities that I had a well and in a positive direction. And I'm satisfied with that. Remi: You speak of being a hedonistic utilitarian, but I'm hearing meaning is more prevalent in your decision-making.Peter: Yes. So when people talk about hedonism, they tend to have this image of the pleasures you get as being central pleasures, pledges of food or drink or, or sex or lying on the beach in the sun or something like that. You know, and they're all good. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not [00:59:00] putting this down at all.They are positive, but I think we are the kind of being that seek something additional to that, not instead of, but additional and that is a kind of fulfillment or meaning in our lives. I think that's just the kind of beings that we are. And that is a kind of pleasure as well. You know, we shouldn't think of pledges as only those physical ones.There are intellectual pleasures and I'm not sure whether you call just kind of satisfaction and intellectual pleasure. Exactly. But it, it, it is a, a sense of meaning pleasure in finding meaning. Remi: Hmm. One of the things I'd love to chat with you about as we come to the end is the general of controversial ideas, which I believe has launched.Is that correct? Well done. That's awesome. So, let's give credit to the three of you. It was yourself and two other academics that kind of helped this come to fruition. Would you like to mention their names? I've got them here, but I'm going to mispronounce. Peter: You're probably thinking [01:00:00] of Francesca Minerva is an Italian academic who has herself been subject to abuse and physical threats for articles that she's published.And I'd have to say the original spark of the journal came from her. She talked to me about it and we also talked to Jeff McMahon. Who's a professor of moral philosophy at Oxford university and a good friend of mine. And it's the three of us who are. Put this together. Essentially because we all believe that ideas are important.It goes back to what we were talking about before, about the importance of being able to put forward different ideas. It is an academic journal, so it's not for everybody to just publish something in, but we send out all of the articles we received to experts in the field and we get their reviews of those articles.And if they think that they're well-argued and rigorous, we will accept them. Sometimes I say, yes, button needs to be revised here or there. And then if the revision comes up, we accept them. And quite a lot of them we [01:01:00] reject. But yeah, we have published the first issue. It's an online open access journal.We've had some donors who've made that possible. So, you can go to journal of controversial ideas.org, and you can read the first two. You can also support the general if you feel like doing that. And the other particular feature, cause of course there's lots of academic journals is that we allow authors to publish under a pseudonym.If they're worried about being subject to abuse or about damaging their career prospects. As we were talking about before and of the, we have 10 articles in the first issue and three of those authors chose to public to publish under a pseudonym. Remi: Hmm. And the purpose of the general of controversial ideas is to provide a.Safe place a voice for ideas that have been pushed out of the mainstream that perhaps you feel and think and have assessed need to be heard or worthy of discussion. Have I captured the Peter: purpose of it, right? Yes. We want to provide a sort of way in which ideas can be [01:02:00] expressed, even if other forums are close to them.And in fact, one of the articles, not one published under a pseudonym, but one of the other articles the author put a little note there saying that this article had been accepted by a journal or positively reviewed anyway by the journal. And it looked like it was about to be accepted. And then after the murder of George Floyd and the concerns, very proper concerns of course, about racism and the editors seem to have second thoughts and Then rejected it.So it is by no stretch of the imagination article it's discussing cultural traditions involving black face involving people coloring their faces and whether those are always wrong or sometimes defensible. But you know, that's an example of something that I think is a good, well thought out article and as a site in no sense of racial statical, but something that journalists didn't want to touch after in the last year or two, Remi: how's the funding [01:03:00] going?How's it going? Peter: We've certainly got enough to publish the next couple of issues. So, we're going to be around for a while and I hope that as we publish more, we'll get more support from people who will like what we're doing. Remi: We'll include links to everything we spoke about Peter, and to all your major works as well in the show notes.So, our viewers can access more of your thinking, which I think would be just marvelous. Is there anything we haven't spoken about as we wrap up that you feel is worth mentioning or you think maybe one Peter: want to there is one more thing actually, and I'll, I'll show it to you. This is, this is my newest publication.I can't say it's exactly my newest book because I didn't write it. I edited; it's written by this person Abu Laos who lived in the second century in the Roman empire. And he wrote this really funny bawdy novel about a man who by magic gets turned into a donkey and What he experiences is a donkey.And it is, it's very funny, but it's also very empathetic to [01:04:00] animals, quite surprising for something written in the Roman empire. So, I hope that your readers will pick it up and Remi: enjoy it going in the show notes as well. For sure. Peter. Absolutely. You're so good doing that. That's so fun. Look, thank you so much, Peter, on behalf of my team who are all raving fans of you and people aren't in the building says 30 raving fans in this building.We're excited that you're chatting with us. And as I said, this is going out to a lot of people be so pleased that your voice is amongst the many and much of the noise that's going on with such clarity. And we such a beautiful Clarion call to live a life of. Practical morality. You're a good kind, man. I studied you at university last year.I read your book last year and I never dreamed I'd be. So, I'm a bit of a fan. Peter: Terrific. And congratulations to you on building up that audience for us. Thank you for what you're Remi: talking about. Keep up the great work. I will take care of the introduction in my time to not waste your time. Please go with our blessings and our kind thoughts.[01:05:00] Peter: Thanks a lot, Remi: sir. Bye bye. Bye bye
61 minutes | Jun 30, 2021
“New Frontiers of Psychedelics” with Tania de Jong | #Perspectives Podcast
“New Frontiers of Psychedelics” with Tania de Jong [00:00:00] Hey and welcome to this week's episode of Perspectives I am your host Sharon Pearson, and we are joined today by an extraordinary guest who has done some remarkable work in a field that is maybe to some of us, a little left of center. Her name is Tania de Jong and she is the founder and executive director of Mind Medicine Australia.And she has done some phenomenal work in moving forward, ensuring that some psychedelics and MDMA may becomes legalized within Australia for therapeutic purposes. This is a topic that I find truly fascinating, Tania is executive director and co-founder and board director of Mind Medicine Australia. And it is a registered charity acting as a central node for regulatory approved and research.[00:01:00] Psychedelics. She is identified in the psychedelic invest top 100 influential people in psychedelics, and she became interested in the resurgence in psychedelic research field after searching for ways to manage your own mental health and her own wellbeing. And we talk about this in the episode, she explains and walks us through her first psychedelic experience and how it transformed her with the support of her partner, Peter, she set out on a quest to have a therapeutic experience, but being able to do this in a safe and legal setting, which as you probably know around the world, isn't that easy to accomplish, have to experiencing this life-changing experience.She realized the potential of these medicines and she very clearly and distinctly calls them a medicines, not an illegal substance. And she also makes it clear here that MDMA and the psychedelics we talk about are not addictive, despite what we may have heard in the moral panic that can be attached to conversations like this.So she's on a mission to help [00:02:00] alleviate the suffering caused by mental illness in Australia that she truly believes is not necessary. And when you hear us have this conversation and you hear about the stats and what's been achieved in clinical trials around the world, right now, there are over a hundred clinical trials taking place around the world, including at John Hopkins, one of the most renowned research facilities in the world.And when you hear these results and we'll include in the show notes, links for you to get more information and maybe to some research as well. So you can see for yourself how profound an impact. that these medicines combined with therapy can have on people who are suffering from PTSD, depression, anxiety, even eating disorders.It is, mind-blowing what I've been learning. She also is part of my Mind Medicine Australia helps to and has phenomenal facilitators, helping to train the facilitators of tomorrow, the psychiatrists and psychologists and the therapists who will, when this becomes legislated within Australia [00:03:00] guide people who want to experience a transformation from the depression or their anxiety or their PTSD, and the team is training them entire process of how you can go through this therapeutic process.This is not an advocacy program for taking drugs. illegally is not an advocacy program for going to a rave, getting smashed and not drinking water and becoming a statistic. This is a conversation based on current research in 2021, and it is really exciting what the future holds. It's so great that you're joining us today.Tania thank you so much. I'd love for you to share with our audience a little bit about your journey as to how you got here to having that as your backdrop, Mind Medicine Australia, if you would please. Sure. Look that's a really long story, but I mean to cut a long story short well my drug of choice has always been singing.So I have always [00:04:00] loved singing and it's been a wonderful form of meditation relaxation. There'll be entertainment connection, so many things for me. therapy so I've never felt the need to have any drugs of any kind. And I've never, in fact, I've always been quite anti-drugs. And so it is, it is surprising that I do have this as my backdrop, but I guess to cut a long story short, you know, I'm the daughter and granddaughter of Holocaust survivors.My grandmother invented the foldable umbrella in Vienna in 1929. So you know, innovation is very much in my blood and I have founded two previous charities to Mind Medicine Australia, plus about six other creative businesses as well. And I've been a performer before, you know, all of, all of my sort of adult life, even though I was told, never double that having singing lessons at the age of 14 and.But I also, I did a law [00:05:00] degree and I've always been extremely entrepreneurial. And so, you know, I sort of, I guess, become the serial entrepreneur and as I've evolved and growing I become interested in different things and there's just sort of been this yeah, I mean to where I am today, where I'm, you know, a co-founder and executive director of Mind Medicine Australia, and those still you know, I'm very passionate about my work as both a performer singer and speaker, and some of the work that I do for collective healing.A lot of the event production work I do as well is tied in to this. So in a sense, it's bringing together a whole lot of different things that I do. But Mind Medicine Australia is, is certainly all consuming. Like it's taking a lot of time up for me and my husband. We do this pro bono and we also do, that's the question I get that you do all these other things, [00:06:00] but why that is the backdrop, that's what I'm interested in.How did you arrive at a place where make getting, helping and facilitating the movement for psychedelics to become legal for medicine? Or how did that happen? Yeah, so that really happened because I've always been interested in hacking myself. So, you know, I've, I've tried lots and lots of different things, different dietsyou know, I tantra mantra cryotherapy my therapy, you know, hyperbaric oxygen all sorts of different retreats, relationship, work personal development. And physical sort of stamina sort of modalities that I've always been really interested in. And I never heard about psychedelic assisted therapies until about five and a half years ago.When I read a blog of Tim Ferriss, who's one of the great donors and investors in this field and he announced that he was donating a [00:07:00] hundred thousand US dollars to impure colleagues to trial of psilocybin assisted therapy to treat depression. I'm not, I don't suffer from depression myself, but I certainly know a lot of people who are suffering with depression.I've worked with a lot of people who are suffering with depression. And so I clicked on the link was to an article by Michael Pollan in the New Yorker magazine called the Trip Treatment and I read this article and it was about, in fact, profiling, a Jewish man who was going to an end of life, probably had a terminal diagnosis, but he had been experiencing, I think, some transgenerational trauma.And I had also. Being experiencing that I didn't really know what it was. You know, I'd have some strange dreams from time to time where maybe I was, and this was awful, you know, where I standing in front of a Nazi firing squad and things like that. And I'm thinking, well, where is this coming from? You know, this is, [00:08:00] I wasn't there for that.And so I felt that there was, you know, parts of my psyche, I guess, that were still carrying some of this ancestral trauma. And so when I read, you know, about this guy's sort of remission conditions and things, I thought, all this sounds amazing, you know, like amazing. And so I said to my husband read this article, I think we should, don't do this treatment.Hey, read it. And he said, oh, you know, it sounds interesting, but he didn't take any more interested in it, but he said, well, if you want to organize it, just go ahead. And he generally does say that about a lot of things. And so I then reached out to Dr. Robin Carhart Harris. Who's one of the leading researchers in this field who was mentioned in the article and asked him if there were any healthy patients trials that we could participate in because we don't have a mental illness diagnosis, but there weren't any taking place in the, in, in Europe at the time.And so we were eventually referred to a [00:09:00] guide in the Netherlands and we then flew to the Netherlands where we worked with that guide and had a massive medicinal dose of psilocybin yeah, I've been pure psilocybin, which was preceded by Syrian Rue, which is a MAOI inhibitor. So the protocol was called silhouette, Cisco, which was a combination really of psilocybin and some of the effective well scope because of the Mio inhibitor Syrian ruined.This was. A huge experience. Like we were literally shot out of our bodies into other dimensions, into the multi-verse you know, journeys, this journey that we went on. And of course our journeys were entirely different. Peter's his father had committed suicide when he was thirteen also. So, wow. You know, we all carry trauma either directly or indirectly.I think we're all carrying a lot of angst and grief along with us. And particularly now I've never felt so much [00:10:00] that way, carrying as a, as a collective and disconnected and huge disconnection and, you know, wonderful thing about these medicines is the enormous sense of connectivity that they bring, you know, the sense of being connected to yourself, to others, to the planet.I really is very profound and the healing that waits. Was enormous. And it's not that we were really ill or that we weren't not functioning or anything like that, but we became much better functioning. You know, I thought I was creative before, but you know, like I've been able to join the dots and understand things that I previously was not able to understand as well.Yeah, it's, it's really a profound effect. And it's improved our relationship, enormously, our relationships without families colleagues I think we've become, you know, more grounded more authentic is less ego in the way because I experienced and we both experienced like [00:11:00] play ego dissolution.So if I may, what that was like was when I taken the medicine. And I deliberately call these medicines cause that's what they are. These are ancient medicines. You know, they've been with humans since beginning of civilization and you can see the history of these medicines in ancient, Greek, and Roman cultures in the archeology.You can see the mushrooms and things like that. Ancient drinks like Kiki on that were taken to alter people, states to, to take them into these, these little ordinary states and. They've been in indigenous cultures since the very beginning. And they still are, of course being used in indigenous cultures completely legally in Mexico, south America.I mean, these medicines are illegal in the Netherlands and no range of other places. It just seems so ridiculous to me that, you know, you can go out into your garden or a field, and there's all these [00:12:00] psilocybin mushrooms, which contain the mind altering substance. And yet if you eat that mushroom, if you pick it and eat that mushroom, then that's, you know, it could end up with you being prosecuted and put in jail or whatever completely ridiculous when you actually go into your garden and pick a poisonous mushroom and eat it and die.Whereas you could eat these mushrooms and completely be healed of many of, you know, the things that we're struggling with in suffering within this human Carnation that went, that we're in. So yeah, it was, it was Extremely profound experience. We came out of it saying that not only was it incredible for us, but that will set up for charities between us before Mind Medicine Australia.And both of us just said, well, you know, you can provide housing. You know, my husband's a [00:13:00] founder of women's community shelters I'm the founder of the Song Room and Creativity Australia, and that with One Voice program to provide creative programs, wonderful social inclusion applies, you know, you can provide all these things to people who are suffering disadvantage of some kind or another, whether it's homelessness, unemployment, disability, whatever it is to be, you know, feeling older and more isolated.But the fact is if a person has a mental illness, Of some kind that there's some sense of anxious, depression, whatever it happens to be trauma that they carrying along with them. If you cannot get to the root of that trauma, it doesn't matter what else you give them, because actually they're not going to feel better and they're not going to be able to lead a fully meaningful and contributing life.And imagine if that's a gift that we can give to people that they can feel, you know, connected and, and more whole more of themselves. If that's a gift [00:14:00] we can give people, then we should give that to people. And we shouldn't withhold it from particularly from people who are suffering. But of course we shouldn't withhold it from anyone because it's our birthright.These plants are on this planet for a reason. They are a medicine they contribute to our wellbeing, our sense of wholeness, oneness unity with, you know, self and others. I mean, how could we deny people the experience. Traveling into altered dimensions and experiencing the 95% of life that we actually don't say on the daily basis, we started really, after that first experience, meeting a load of the researchers reading a lot of the trials that were going on and familiarizing ourselves with the space.Then we started going to conferences and events around the world. A year later, we did another ceremony experience, I guess, with the same guide and it was even more profound. And then we were just completely [00:15:00] convinced. We were just like, well, everyone needs to have access to these medicines who needs access to them.And we also looked at what was not going on in Australia. Really. There was very little going on in Australia. There were, you know, an amateur psychedelic society. And that sort of thing, but there was, you know, a tiny handful of researchers who were interested in this space, but there was really nothing.We had nothing to offer. We were acting in Australia, like it was 1970 and Nixon had just declared war on drugs. I was thinking in Australia for so long. Yeah. It's out of date by 50 years. So, and now there is research in Australia because the thinking around this is come full circle. So thank you. I'd love to just add a little disclaimer here.I have a little caveat for anyone listening, who perhaps is still perhaps thinking the way I used to think, Tania so this is for anybody who's thinking [00:16:00] like I used to think this is not us advocating, taking any drug. However you want. We are not advocating use of drugs that you buy off the street. We're not suggesting that we be irresponsible with what we have in your conversation about.Is using psychedelics something like perhaps MDMI, which is a different category of therapeutic medicine or a psychedelic like psilocybin for therapeutic purposes to help in the healing process. Ideally with a trained therapist, who's trained in how to guide you through a really extensive process, because I've now watched the movie.You, you had on that around the Israel study that was done, and I'm familiar with a number of the protocols now and how to help someone resolve trauma and the kind of stats these results are producing. So I invite you if you're an audience member thinking I never want my kids to do drugs. We are not advocating your kids do drugs.I mean, I think it's important also to say to everyone who watches listens to this [00:17:00] is that everything is about the context. Everything is about the context in which a medicine or drug is used. So, you know, morphine, which is. Used often in the hospital, but you know, if you take it recreational it's, it's no good heroin on the street is no good, but it's using the anesthetics when you go and have an operation in the hospital.So everything is about your intention and how you use that medicine in an intentional way for healing or whether you're using it just to get off your face because you can't deal with your trauma. It's leading you to become an addict, an addict in something else. It's important though, to say that these medicines are extremely safe and non-addictive even in recreational environments, they considered to MDMA particularly and psilocybin in their pure GMP pay grade form are considered extremely safe in recreational environments[00:18:00] whereas alcohol is by far the most dangerous drug to self and others. And that's been proven in multiple trials and studies around the world. So. We are talking about medicines that when used intentionally under the guidance of, you know, a supervise guide or therapist can truly transform your perspective on life and certainly create enormous healing for a range of conditions, not only including depression and anxiety and trauma, but are now being trialed for addiction.And they, the, the results for treating addiction the results are incredible yeah. End of life, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, anorexia and eating disorders. Alzheimer's now cluster headaches and of course, PTSD and so we're seeing these medicines now being trialed for. An enormous variety of conditions.And my [00:19:00] belief is that they will be trialed for even a broader group of conditions as time goes on, because the way that they reconnect brains on neural pathways is so significant that that, and that sense of connectivity is so important to a person's healing. And really these medicines help to empower us, to become agents for our own healing, rather than taking daily pills or relying on a psychotherapist for the rest of our lives.And this is nothing against the wonderful psychotherapies that are there. It's simply saying that there are treatments and with two to three medicinal treatments combined with a short course of psychotherapy, 60 to 80% of patients across 160 recent trials are going to remission. Now you compare that again.30 to 35% remission rates from current treatments for depression, or just 5% remission rates for [00:20:00] post-traumatic stress disorder. And it comes back and if they suspend treatment, it returns. Yeah. And let alone all the side effects and the withdrawal comes through these medications and so on. So in this case, we're saying that mental illness does not have to bail.I said that there is a cure for many patients available, not for all. This is not a panacea for all. And nor are we saying that current existing treatments don't work for some patients, they do. They just don't work for the majority of patients. And we have a mental health crisis. And this is one of the reasons why Peter and I, as philanthropists and social entrepreneurs are putting all our money and time, energy into these, because the impact.It's enormous. The potential impact is huge. Like Mind Medicine Australia, and other organizations, like it, have the potential to change and save the lives of millions of people yeah, who was suffering - there is 1 million [00:21:00] soldiers in the us, struggling with PTSD as we speak and traditional old school therapies are not resolving it, but the results they're having five years later, 53 to 50%, 7% of them have cannot any longer be classed as having PTSD.Yeah. In the recent phase three trial of MAPS with both veterans, first responders and also others suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder straight after just three medicinal doses of MDMA with a short course of psychotherapy. 67% of those patients have gone into remission. And it's expected that as they integrate the experience, it's important to say psychedelic assisted psychotherapy means the medicine, the psychedelic with the psychotherapy, the medicine on its own.It's not going to be fully effective. Anyone out there. I just say that as a word of caution, that you need to do a proper integration process because the insights that [00:22:00] you will experience using these medicines are profound, but to capture them and bring them into your lives, your relationship, relationships, your work, whatever you need to bring them into all elements of your life takes integration.It takes work with a therapist to bring those learnings in and to then make the changes that you need to make in your life that are going to relieve some of the suffering and, and help you to experience what is really here, this beautiful life that we've been gifted by our parents. It's just such a gift.And it's, it's a terrible tragedy that most people can experience, I guess. That you know, and this is really, really the reason why we set up Mind Medicine in Australia is because we have this mental health epidemic in Australia and globally that is, is just getting worse and worse. You know, pre COVID in Australia alone.We had one in five Australians with a mental illness, one [00:23:00] in age being prescribed antidepressants, but one in four older adults and one in 30 children, as young as four. Now that is a terrible indictment. You know, we are over prescribing these medications more than just about any other OECD patient. And furthermore, you know, what we're seeing is that, you know, these statistics suggest that one in two of us will suffer a mental illness in our lifetimes.And we can't continue to overmedicate people in the way. Is occurring at the moment. Well, the medication is suppressing a symptom, whereas the therapies that are now on, in studies around the world, a lot of studies in the world are dealing with the core of it and resolving the core issue. So the symptoms will, I'm no longer required.There's one story I heard about, I think I'm going to attribute it to Rick Doblin, who is one of the major leaders in the world in this research. I know you have a relationship with him. I think [00:24:00] it was him. I'll give him credit for it. My apologies if it isn't him, whoever that is. And he said one of the first experiences of it was a soldier who experienced PTSD and had for years, 17 years, I think it was.And he held onto the PTSD. He realized this when he was taken through the therapeutic process and on his very first trip, I think it was MDMA but I can't remember if it was psilocybin he came to realize that he was staying in stress to honor his dead comrades. I'm going to get emotional.And only in that very first trip, you mean the requirement is you have therapy, then you have a trip, some therapy trip therapy, trip, some therapy at the end. So it's three trips with therapy back-to-back he did the pre therapy, did this one trip and realized the only reason he held onto his honor is dead comrades Chrome rights.As a result of the psilocybin, he became his dead comrades and saw his life through their eyes. And in the moment of seeing his life through their eyes, he realized they'd never want [00:25:00] that for him. He dropped out of that very first study and years later, any symptoms of PTSD are completely resolved and now he works assisted.People experiencing trauma. And that's just to correct you by the way. I think that person who is MDMA therapy, not psilocybin thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Assisted therapy is the one that's used for post-traumatic stress disorder, psilocybin therapy therapies used for depression and development as well, so perfect.And they were able to drop out of the study. And so I don't need, there is the trips aren't needed the therapy and they've had years of therapy and putting aside whatever issues we have around this, let's pause and take in this. What looks like in any other category, if it wasn't criminalized, we would consider miraculous and worth pursuing with all our mightthe world would be transformed if it was doing this for anything else that had [00:26:00] illegal substance around. Totally. That is a transformation. Their life is changed and saved because of this. Let's pause and think, well, maybe we need to change our views of it. Our preconceptions that come from the 1970s or late sixties and realize what's shifted in the world now, which I love.I love the shift. Well, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And you know, if you think about it, that the existing treatments, most of them are based on science that is over 50 years old. I mean, in what other field of medicine are we so stuck in the past and why are we running towards these treatments? You know, so the Brigadier general of the veterans in, in the U S said, you know, based on the data and facts, we should be running towards these trends.If this could even save a handful of lives, but it can save literally. Millions of lives. So why aren't we doing that? I think it's turning now. So let's just take a moment and talk. It was [00:27:00] really bad in the sixties. So one of the lines, I think Rick said, but again, I think I'm giving him a bit too much credit.I think it was Griffiths said in the 1960. So it was used in a lot of clinical trials back then, as you know, Tania it escaped over the laboratory wall and made it out into the counterculture and the counterculture getting hold of it meant that the, all the negative stories in the myths began to be produced around the world.That's how we heard these stories about if you took it, you would stare at the sun until you went blind. It's a complete myth and a lie that was created to create fear amongst it, which forced it way underground for way too long. But we're talking today because that landscape is no longer the landscape we find ourselves in.Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting. So even though I didn't know what psyilocibin was, and I didn't even really know what psychedelics were, to be honest. When I did this, there was still, obviously some of those messages that stigma was flying away because I wasn't even aware that I had it, but I was like, am I going to go crazy?Am I going to have a heart attack? Is, you [00:28:00] know, so they, you know, they sort of, these myths are very strong. And so one of the really important roles of mine medicine Australia is to actually dispel those myths and to focus on the science and the data. Because when we focus on the funds and data, it's absolutely clear, like, you know, the risks attached to these medicines are actually extremely low.There has not been a single adverse event with thousands of patients. Who've undergone either psilocybin or MDMA sister therapy. Over 160 trials, you know, no one has become a drug addict before because of them. In fact, many drug addicts and smoking addict addicts smokers have, have actually been able to like their addictions have gone because of these treatments.So yeah, it's, it's really yeah, it's amazing how we, we sort of turned things upside down didn't we, you know, so that alcohol was not made criminal cigarettes were not made criminal [00:29:00] and cocaine and meth amphetamines and all these really dangerous drugs, you know, the people can access very easily and yet yeah.But yes, what is really great is we are seeng this Renaissance now and. It's brand has brain rejuvenated, Tanya. So leading the way, just so we can get some facts out there for people listening. Who've never heard about this Renaissance. That's been going on. John Hopkins has been conducting studies for a while.Now. NYU is conducting studies. Studies have now begun in Australia. There's millions of dollars of funding. It's not a lot, but some, but one of the stories I found most interesting was Tim Ferriss was talking last year in 2020, as result of a a citizen philanthropy, there is $30 million in private funds to pursue clinical trial stage three trials.In the effectiveness of psychedelics in therapeutic settings that tells me the tide has [00:30:00] turned on this conversation finally, to enable people who need the help, who are suitable for these types of therapies can get the help. And just to be very conservative, there is complete recognition. Not everybody is suited to this.There are some personality types and some, I think it's remind me, what is it not suited for? So, so at the moment, schizophrenia and bipolar excluded those with incidences of psychosis, but many of the psychiatrists actually believe that over time, as you know, these medicines are studied further, those conditions also be able to be treated.And I do know instances of people who. have been So because they haven't been accepted into the trials because of those conditions have gone underground where they, the borderline of bipolar and other conditions and have actually healed as well. But at the moment they're excluded from the trials and, you know, at time it will just take time.And the more that we invest in you know, research in this space, [00:31:00] but also the more that actual access is granted, so that we can click data as people go through treatments. And that's one of the things we've really fast-tracked in Australia is that these treatments are currently available through special access scheme pathways.And what that means is that a doctoral psychiatrist. You know, it can work with a treatment resistant patients. So a patient who's tried two or more other treatments that haven't worked and who is very ill and potentially could be suicidal, but certainly is very ill. And the doctor and psychiatrist applies to the TJR regulator to treat that patient with either psilocybin or MDMA assisted therapy.And the TGA has been granting those treatments. In fact, I don't believe they've knocked any back since last June, so that's a federal approval, but then the doctor then needs to get an approval in the state to treat the patient. And in some states there are still these recreational use laws that prevent the [00:32:00] medicines from being brought in because they're seen as drugs instead of medicines.So what we need to make sure occurs is that there's a national standardization, a permit system put in place in every state of Australia. That means that doctors can. Bring those medicines in to treat patients in clinical environments, that's completely different to a recreational use setting. And so, you know, again, this comes down to context and unfortunately the states are not making this distinction between the use of the medicine in a medical environment to treat a patient who's really unwell and potentially save their life versus someone who's going underground to access you know, they drugs what's the resistance around it. Given it's moved so far forward in the United States. So in the United States, the FDA has last year declared it for breakthrough status, which means it's a breakthrough. Which is a breakthrough [00:33:00] medicine. And what that means is they give approval to fast-track the different stages of clinical trials that need to occur.So we can start helping people as soon as possible Australia, I, to, to medicine that that could be vastly superior to existing treatments. It's a very good nation. Yes it is. And where are we in Australia? Yeah, so we have the SASB approvals taking place trickling through, but yeah, yeah. We need to get through some of the state barriers, which we're working on, but also in Australia, we've put in submissions for the rescheduling of both MTMA and psilocybin from schedule nine, which is prohibited medicine, which implies it's dangerous and of no benefit, which is completely wrong and is simply based on the politicization of president Nixon in 1970.Yeah. Two schedule eight schedule eight meaning controlled medicines. So that means the medicine would be used in clinical environments under the supervision of trained practitioners. And that's where this medicine [00:34:00] should be sitting if not schedule four. So in Australia, we have a number of medicines and schedule a and schedule four, which are far more dangerous than either psilocybin or MDMA and schedule four schedule four is a more, slightly more accessible, still controlled, but slightly more accessible.But we have medicines like ibogaine, which is used to treat very heavy drug addicts. It's a psychedelic medicine also, but it's far, far more, you know, No potential far more significant effects on the heart and so on. Whereas psilocybin and MDMA do not, as I said before, there's been no adverse events with their use whatsoever.And you know, they continually come up in files, like for example, these a recent trial that has been undertaken in pure college directly comparing an SSRI, an antidepressant with psilocybin [00:35:00] assisted therapy. And in that trial the 60 patients were either given two doses of psilocybin with psychotherapy or a daily dose of a esetelgram which is an antidepressant.And at the end of the trial twice, So twice as many of the patients in the psilocybin group went into remission, as that is to tell a prime group, they also had less side effects and less suicidal ideation. So what we're seeing is that in every single trial, these treatments are showing themselves as to be far more effective and actually safer than existing treatments because yeah, and again, they don't treat the symptoms, they treat the core.It's a long-term resolution, not a suppression. Correct? Correct. And this is all about curative medicines, not just palliative medicine, about, you know, finding a cure so that person can then, you know, become fully aware of what has been their trauma or their challenge. And they can get through it [00:36:00] themselves.Just coming in, obviously with competent therapists is extremely important. It is important to note that a lot of the existing treatments do have negative effects for a lot of people, they can lead to suicidality in some patients and their side effects significant as, as many of us will know. And also it's, it's a known fact that it's extremely difficult to withdraw from antidepressants if you've been on them for, for awhile, and that can create its own problems.So we need to be very careful. And Mind Medicine Australia says, you know, we say six days. As expanding the treatment options available to medical practitioners and their patients ensuring that these treatments become a first-line option. So that if you go to your medical practitioner, they will discuss a range of statements with you disclosing full risks and benefits.One thing we hear about often is that doctors don't fully disclose the, the side effects of antidepressants to their [00:37:00] patients, and that should be happening. You know, we should have full disclosure to all patients, and then it becomes a decision for the doctor and patient as to what's going to be the most effective and safe treatment for that patient on a case by case basis.It's not just this broad brush stroke that everyone who comes in, you know, who's feeling a little bit sad, just gets given an antidepressant script and, you know, success for us. We'll look at, look like first-line treatments. Secondly, that the remission rates are very high. And continue to be very high and that the right treatment protocols are put in place for all patients.And finally that these treatments are accessible and available to all Australians, no matter where they're based, their financial circumstances. So a big part of our focus is setting up this ticket in psychedelic assisted therapies. And we've had our first cohort go through [00:38:00] 46 psychiatrists, psychologists, GPS, physicians, therapists, mental health nurses, social workers, occupational therapists, counselors.And so they've already gone through and many of them have rated the course as the model. Life-changing and important course and the most brilliant training they've ever undertaken. We have a world-class faculty and as our second intake commences, and a couple of weeks and is nearly full. And then we have probably up to four intakes in 2022.The demand is huge. And so this is preparation for what's coming because you anticipate the laws are going to need to start keeping up with all the other research around the world. The research now is reasonably your refutable it's trials have been complete. The stats are in, we can't argue with these ridiculously successful.Absolutely. But also a lot of these therapists are able to start working with patients now, so they can do, you know, they can help prepare patients who are [00:39:00] going underground because it's not illegal to do that. They can provide integration to patients. Who've used the medicine. They could work on trials and they can work with their patients who are getting SASB special access scheme approvals.So in actual fact, the therapists who are being trained and getting the qualification now the front run is in this space and they're the therapists who will gain first access also to be part of, you know, some of the trials and, and other pathways that become available. And St Vincent's has started its own trial.I think last year is that right? They've done. They have some funding for a trial. So we part funded a trial at St. Vincent's, which is for end of life anxiety and stress caused by a terminal diagnosis. That's going through about 30 patients. It's similar to some trials that have been conducted overseas at New York university.And. Johns Hopkins. And [00:40:00] the interesting thing is that the one at New York university, which I mentioned before, which was an inspiration for me in terms of actually trying to spice it up was what was really interesting about that trial was that 80% of the patients went into remission immediately from the end of life, stress and anxiety, and were able to, you know, it continued.But what is remarkable is that after four and a half years, the researchers went back to those patients. And not only were the majority of them still alive, but all of them were still in remission who was still alive. Wow. That's a whole other study. That's a whole different study. That's got to be done.That's staggering. I didn't know that. That's right. Yeah. My mind is blown. That's incredible. We probably should've done this sooner. Would you mind touching base for our audience members? The difference between MDMA whose full name? I cannot pronounce, no matter how much I researched. And let's just talk about psilocybin, which is an [00:41:00] element of magic mushrooms.Can you just share the difference basically between the two? Yeah, so MDMA is known as a empathogen. So basically what he does is it's actually not a traditional psychedelics. So what it does is when you have the MDMA you feel very warm and loving and connected, and unfortunately MDMA has been very vilified because it's been used a lot as a party drug people at music, festivals and so on, but.Young people are getting when they think they're getting MDMA is an adult rated substance. In fact, in a lot of the capsules that people think is MDMA there's other substances and sometimes is no MDMA whatsoever, which is what leads to those headlines, further drug deaths from MDMA which is unfortunately not what's actually happening.And it's also known for the audience. If they haven't heard MDMA ecstasy or Molly, that's the straight kind of name for it. Yeah. [00:42:00] Fortunately ecstasy and Molly have go a bad name because making it at music festivals at rave parties and so on in combination with other substances often with dehydration kids staying up all night and that can lead to really bad effects.But MDMA and it's pure GM P pharmceutical grade. Substance that's used as a medicine and a medically controlled environment creates enormous empathy and trust and safety for the patient, where they are able to talk about their trauma with the therapist in a very safe and loving environment. And what the MDME does is it reduces the activity of their Mikela, which often triggers a fight or flight response.So when a therapist normally gets you to talk about your trauma, that can re trigger a re traumatize, you, which can make you worse in effect, you know, I'm sure we've all spoken to people. Who've suffered with trauma at one time or another way we try to talk about the trauma and they either [00:43:00] burst into floods of tears.race out of the room can become very emotional and it can become very problematic. But what happens with this is the patient's able to talk about their trauma. They're able to accept what has happened and to move forward with their lives. And be healed. And, you know, in the case of the phase two trials with MAPS it 105 patients, all of whom had been suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder for an average of 18 years, just three medicinal treatments.With a short course of psychotherapy, 52% of them went into remission immediately, but 67% after 12 months with full integration. So you can imagine the suffering that they had experienced, then the remission that they achieved. And that's what it, those 5% from existing treatments, how can we not give that gift to people?You know, it's, it's extraordinary. So MDMA provides an incredible therapeutic [00:44:00] window in which competent therapists can work with a patient. I'll just mentioned to the audience for MAPS the multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies. Yes. And then psilocybin is the psychoactive component of magic mushrooms.It is a traditional psychedelic medicine that has been with humanity since the beginning of human civilization. And what it does in the brain is it's, it helps to bypass. What's called the default mode network of our brain. The default mode network of our brain keeps us stuck in very rigid stuck thought loops, particularly with suffering from depression or anxiety or some form of trauma.You know, I'm not good enough things weren't work out for me. My life is rubbish. No one loves me and I actually share, and I will provide a video that you might like to attach with. Interview [00:45:00] that people can watch that gives some further, further guidance, but the wonderful philosophic is that it it really can expand to what's known as our five T H two-way receptor, which is a serotonin receptor in our brain.And the psilocybin floats beautifully into that receptor and it creates this therapeutic window. So that in effect, what happens is when you take the psilocybin, the default mode network of your brain is sorta goes to sleep and you get the sense of incredible neural connectivity. And I'll provide you with some scans of FMR.I. Yeah, good scans down on some patients with depression that show in the placebo. So for patient with depression, they have very limited neural connectivity. You know, these rigid, stuck thought loops, but with the ingestion of the psilocybin, they experienced this massive neurogenesis, this neural [00:46:00] connectivity where different hemispheres of their brain start reconnecting, they experience increased neuroplasticity, and that allows this connectivity, this sense of oneness to take place.And again, creates a therapeutic window where a competent therapist can work with that patient post the treatment because the patient in the silicide and experience, isn't an entirely altered state. They will usually experience some form of ego dissolution. Yes. And it will no longer be Tania or Sharon.It'll be one. Yes. You're part of everything. Everything feels part of you. It's a wonderful, wonderful feeling. And from that experience, you can then start to come to terms with some of the things that are holding that. Yeah. So in my case, would that look like was I traveled completely out of my body. I actually saw these three boxes that had the word ego in them with a red cross for them.And I kept [00:47:00] saying ego, I please get out of my way, get out of my, go down the drain. And actually below is three boxes where drains, they sewage look like sewage pipes or drains. And I kept trying to push my ego down the drain. That was what symbolism was of what I was saying. Once I had pushed my ego down the drain, I was then able to journey further with my experience where I just became one with everything and everything became a part of me.And if you have the right. dosage of each of the medicine, which you will always have in a medically controlled environment, then you will hopefully inevitably experience that. Now with some people that may take time, you know, if a person has been on antidepressants for a number of years or decades, it may take more experiences with the psilocybin, for to get a breakthrough like that.So it's arguable that some patients are gonna need more than two or three medicinal doses of these medicines. [00:48:00] And only time will tell, you know, as we do more research and work out more of the protocols for treatment, I think it will become obvious what different patients are going to need in terms of those in terms of support, in terms of how many dosesand so on one of the ways Sam Harris describes it is he strived for years to have that experience through meditation and taking it was MDMA helped him experience what the whole experience could be with meditation, which he now says he experiences through meditation. So it's almost like you get to the end point also.That's what it feels like to be fully the one. And then now he meditates to that to knowing that reality, he actually did his first psilocybin experience. I think at the end of last year, you should go and have a look at it and you might want to share it with, I did watch that. I thought it was fascinating.He did MDMA years ago in psilocybin last year and his friend instructed him. I won't actually talk about the instructions. Y'all watch the we'll [00:49:00] listen to the audio cause he has a great disclaimer and I think that's important. The other thing I think that's with touching on is if we keep holding onto 1970s attitudes around this and bring 1970s attitudes to it, I want caution and I want clinical studies and I know you support, let's do it in a very methodological way.That's exactly how to do it. But any moral panic around this to me is looking really fuddy-duddy should this absolutely especially, well, for two reasons, one of them is that firstly, these medicines and particularly the mushrooms and some of the other psychedelic plant medicines are readily available.And so, you know, the people suggest that, you know we should somehow withhold these from people is actually very short-sighted because what will happen is, and what is happening now is that the longer that these medicines take to be above ground and in medically controlled environments, the more people will go to [00:50:00] the underground and take risks to get better because people will do anything.So, you know, like we only get one life, one short line, these medicines really reiterate that well in this incarnation anyway, you know, so the fact of the matter is if people are really sick and they've been suffering for years and decades, they are going to do. And as, as there's more many media articles about these treatments, they'll just go and find the treatments.Now, there are many underground practitioners who are outstanding and hopefully they'll find them, but there's as inevitably happens in any sector that is taking off they'll also be Cowboys that come in and who will put up their shingles and who will put themselves out there as psychedelic assisted therapists who don't have the experience either with dosing or holding the space or integrating patients properly.And then there could be adverse events that do occur. [00:51:00] So we need to accelerate access to these treatments as fast as we can. It's just imperative that you know, we do that now. And of course, you know, there's plenty of space to continue research in this space. At the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive.We can provide access and start training all these veterans and first responders and others, our brothers, our sisters, our mothers, our fathers, our employees who will also many of whom are suffering. Especially in these, you know, coming out of post COVID world where we're seeing the terrible harms that have been done, especially to children and young people and older people as well.Who've been. And we need to provide solutions. The elephant in the room is the lack of treatment innovation for over five decades. That is what we need to be talking about. Not about more tele health, not about training more psychiatrists and psychologists or more antidepressants. It can't be just more and more antidepressants when the success rate is so low and [00:52:00] placebos often perform nearly as well.If not as well, when there is an urgency. Well, I would I mental health crisis beginning. So, you know, so yeah, so we need to get away from these attitudes of 50 years ago, you know, it's, it's 2021 right? Well, there hasn't really been a breakthrough in mental health since 1980s and nineties when antidepressants hit the market really full force.So if you haven't had a transformation in that entire sector, yet mental health is getting worse and worse and worse. Surely if we have a potential pathway and again, it's not a panacea, we're not saying it is for everyone. It's not suited to everyone. It needs to be done under controlled conditions with a very well-trained expert guide with all those caveats, it becomes a point.I think it was just a political football, right. And, you know, and, and it's great to say the Australian government actually you know, supporting files. And in fact, you know, the 15 million that the Australian government has announced [00:53:00] is actually larger than any other government in the world has actually announced.That's fantastic. We're out of the fuddy duddy category. If you look at it now, Sharon in Australia actually. The potential to lead in this space, the latest in this space, we've got fantastic scientists. We have amazing researchers, amazing medical doctors who really care about their patients and want to get them well.And I should also say that there's a massive market opportunity for Australia. You know, the market is in valued. Like it's, it's like some estimates are as high as $200 billion marketplace for psychedelic medicines over the next few years. And we're seeing startups sitting up every, you know, almost every two weeks since Peter and I started Mind Medicineso there's one of the challenges though that you can't patent the MDMA stretch all the psilocybin structure so startups are coming in so [00:54:00] big pharma isn't necessarily. Yeah, it's going to be funding it, which is why there's so many individuals who are funding it right now to make a difference in the world.They're literally doing it as a charitable donation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we certainly do that, but there's also startups. Commercial startups will pro profit startups around the world. Probably more than 50 now, who are listed on various stock exchanges who are investing in reinventing the molecules, manufacturing, new medicines, rollout of clinics and so on.So there will be for-profit models where people will make a lot of money, but we say it's really important to do then ethical way. And, and we hope that the for-profit and not-for-profit sectors can work effectively together to make sure that these medicines don't get priced out of, you know, out of the market.I mean, so that, you know, anyone can get access to them, not just wealthy people, cause that would be a travesty. Thank you so much tenure. I really appreciate it. I find this conversation truly fascinating. I do follow what you do. I have attended the [00:55:00] videos that you've been sharing, the the study out of Israel.I watched that and I was really interested in it. Congratulations. The other thing that I was thinking is I might be able to send you some of my, I've got some beautiful songs and recordings on my record albums. Some of which have been informed by. You know, my experiences with the medicines and some of the insights that I've received.And so I'd love to share them with you anyway. That'd be great. Thank you. That's really kind of, you send through the links because I think that to be informed is to stop moral panic, to be informed is to understand how we can support people who are suffering unnecessarily. So anything that we can do to access the information that's going to decode our brains from 1970s, thinking to where the current research is, which has a lot of credibility.A lot of legitimacy in the world is the political groundswell is going to shift the attitude towards it is going to shift until I believe in our lifetime. It is shifting. I mean, this is inevitable, like within the native cities, [00:56:00] yes. Medicines will become much more readily available. Not only I think, will they be available in the middle?Yeah. Environments, but over time, they'll become available to those who are seeking personal development, creative development, Tania lovely connecting with you. I really appreciate your time. Where can people find out more about what you do and the movement, if they just want to start paying attention to this as what's coming in the future?Absolutely. So, you know, we'd love you to look at our website, mind medicine, australia.org. We are a registered charity, so please if you can donate small and large donations all make a huge difference in the mission to make these medicines available. And to heal the suffering that's occurring. Yeah.So please support us. Look at our learn section on our website. Join our chapters. We have 30 chapters around Australia, New Zealand attend our events. We have lots of free webinars. We have a global summit in November. Register if [00:57:00] you're a therapist registered for the certificate in psychedelic therapies just get involved.Reach out. We also have volunteering opportunities and we also do advertise, you know, we're expanding a team. So we have some wonderful jobs coming up. Fantastic. Congratulations on how far it's come. They were looking for a general manager at the moment, so, wow. Okay. Good plug. I love it. Fantastic. All right.Well, I recommended I follow you and your work and I've, as I said, attended a couple of your classes. I think it's fascinating work and it's unbelievably important and significant. So thank you so much for your time Tania I really appreciate. Thank you, Sharon. Fascinating talking with you and I'm thankful.That'd be great. Thanks so much. Thank you.
3 minutes | Jun 29, 2021
“New Frontiers of Psychedelics” with Tania de Jong (Trailer) | Perspectives Podcast
Coming up on #Perspectives next week – Tania de Jong, founder and executive of Mind Medicine Australia. Tania is one of the 100 most influential people in psychedelics today, an extraordinary woman who has done some remarkable work in a field that is maybe to some of us, a little left of centre. We talk about her work to move forward the progress of ensuring ensuring that some psychedelics (MDMA and psilocybin) becomes legalized within Australia for therapeutic purposes. This is a topic that I find truly fascinating. *NB this is a research-based conversation. Remi Pearson and #Perspectives in no way advocate for the use of illegal drugs. Mind Medicine Australia does not encourage or facilitate illegal use of psychedelics or plant medicine. Their focus in wholly clinical.
71 minutes | Jun 16, 2021
Tony Nash - Creating Booktopia | #Perspectives Podcast
Perspectives Podcast - Tony Nash[00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. It's such a pleasure to join you. And I want to thank you for being with us. I really appreciate you. I got interviewed the other day and I got to brag about our view is, and I think you're fantastic. So it's great that you're here today. We have a very special guest, especially if you're Australian centric.So his name is Tony Nash. You may know him as the man who co-founded Booktopia. It is a very large online book seller here in Australia. It's massive. It's where I do my business, which I didn't get to tell Tony in the interview, but Tony is just a great guy. He's a real pragmatist. You're going to enjoy.He's very down to earth approach and nature. When it comes to building such a successful business, it is the world's largest online and offline book retailer. In the world, which is quite the achievement. I think it's fantastic because obviously everybody's minds go to Amazon, but Amazon's focus as Tony reveals is an inbox now.So they've [00:01:00] carved out this phenomenal niche themselves with some entrepreneurial thinking, pragmatism seeing gaps in the market and just figuring out obsessing about what the customers want. He created the business with his brother, Simon and friend, Steve. And they're starting budget on Google ads was $10 a day.They deliberately did not make a profit until 2016. They started in 2004 did not make any profit to two 16. We talk about that in the interview, and that was deliberate because what they wanted to do was to keep funding the growth that was required to take care of their customer demands. It turns over in exists.I think it's over $200 million a year. Now it's been listed in the AFI Bow's fast hundred, eight times the only company ever to achieve this feat from 2009 to 2017, it's been voted bookstore of the year. They've moved into publishing as well. We didn't get to talk about that as much as I'd liked, but that's a really interesting new niche they're carving out for themselves.It has [00:02:00] won the New South Wales Telstra Business of the Year the Australian Telstra Business Award People's choice Award we were a finalist in that. I remember that. They've been a finalist seven times in the Telstra business awards and they are state, it stated that Australian authors and titles are a key focus for this company.And you'll hear that come through. When we talk with him, they completed an IPO in 2020 during the first year. Did you believe he'd ever say this the first year of this global pandemic and our response to it? They did an IPO. So initial public offering, they went public and their capital raised successfully.They did an 11 week launch from decision to IPO, which I think is fantastic. They hold nearly 200,000 books in stock, ready to ship. They sell an item every 4.8 seconds. Their warehouses in excess of 10,000 square meters. Their main rival apparently is Amazon. Even though Amazon is in Australia, Booktopia is just doing gangbusters, going from strength to [00:03:00] strength.We talk about teams, culture. We talk about what it takes to build a business very much this theme of pragmatism and keeping your head and focusing on the customer and figuring out where the sale is going to be made because everything else up until then is talk and with no further talk from him.Here is Tony Nash. So you've been going now, you began in 2004. How would you say if you were to describe right now, how you got here? Rather than telling me what you did. How did you get here to be in this position where you are now with Booktopia mostly, for me, it feels like one thing led to another. So I'm very horizon point driven.That means that I have a clear picture of where I want to get to. And I may not necessarily know that that's. How to get there, but by having that horizon point to me it's more like a mountain range beyond the mountain range that I can see in the [00:04:00] distance and going, right. We've got to get to X and at the moment we're turning over 200 million.So therefore, what have I got to do to get to 300 million? But before that, of course it was getting from 100 to 200, from 20 to a hundred and so on and so forth. So if you work your way back then that's that's quite often when I think about the driving force, it's like, if someone said to me, come on, let's, let's get on a boat and go for a trip.And, and, and where do you want to go? And I say, look, let's go east. Well, we can end up in Alaska. We could end up in Antarctica and you got, what can you be a bit more specific? And it's like, well, New Zealand, north or south island and north, so Wellington or Auckland, Oakland, Ryan and I were in Oakland.Well, you know, the where the marina is, where we're going to where they had the America's cup, that's where we're going. And all of a sudden everything gets clear. And, and that to me is a lot about having that destination that then creates a level of [00:05:00] thinking, which gets you into action. Okay. So you start with the end in mind, which is what anybody who's an entrepreneur who's successful and not successful starts with that's.I imagine that's part of it, but there must be more to the soup because. It's not as simple as just set the intention and the horizon line cause a new horizon line keeps presented itself and that horizon line is always further away and to get to their new horizon line, the challenge is always unique because the once you've conquered one horizon line, you've conquered those challenges.The next horizon line is completely different. Challenges are required for you to overcome. Can you talk about that? Yep. So where the Where the engine sits in terms of how we fire up and what we do comes from asking one question every day, what do our customers want? So even though there's an end point in mind, it's still coming from the point of what do they want, because that will determine what we do to get where we need to get to, to the horizon point.So that's how it feels to me. In [00:06:00] terms of, I guess, if you were to use the New Zealand metaphor, it's kind of like, oh, we're going to go in a cruiser or you're going to go on a sailing boat. Are we, how are we going to get there? And, and so that, that would be the next unpicking of the, you know, taking the layers of the onion away.There are many, many other things though that make up the. You know, who who's on your crew what sort of roles do you need to have or the other we can't afford to have passengers. So who's doing what that comes, that comes into play. If I think about it I've never really used it in this kind of metaphor before, but that makes sense to me.How are we funding it? So are we, do we want to have more month left at the end of the money or do we want to have more money left at the end of the month? We focused more on cashflow statements in the beginning that we did in profit and loss. There was a very clear growth strategies that I had in mind in terms of, in terms of getting, you know, I didn't want to overgrow.I didn't want to under, but I didn't want to grow too quickly. So it's slow down there. So it's talking about capital raising [00:07:00] or not capital raising. How did you decide what your sweet spot was for over or under growing? How did you, was it an intuition? Did you have numbers to base it on? How did you go?Yeah, kind of felt to me, like by growing at around 25 to 30% a year was was a, a stretch that was manageable. But not exhaustive. And so, and what I liked about that, it wasn't lumpy. So every year people were used to beat in the distribution center and customer service, sales, marketing, whoever, like, they just knew that we were growing at a very steady, right.And I found that to be really helpful in terms of people getting used to, if we were jumped, like. 80% one year with the pandemic, which some companies would have. And then it's only 10% the next year. Overall over two years, you've increased by about 40% a year, 35% a year. But for us having that steady growth all the time, Pru proved that we could bring on [00:08:00] people that we could fulfill the orders that we were getting, that we can manage our cashflow, that we weren't spiraling out of control.That's how it felt for me. And I imagine if you had overreach, you would have been in danger of not getting the capital funding you needed to bail you out of the overreach. So it wasn't as simple as finding the sweet spot, really the business relied on it because you were profit net, nothing for how many years.That was extraordinary. Part of the story. Yeah, that was, that was intentional. So to me it was about pushing, putting back into the business, everything that we were accumulating. So having started the business off a $10 note back in. 2004. We we had another business at a time and when I say we I've been in business with my brother and my sister and my brother-in-law and we had another business, internet marketing.So we were doing consulting work and Booktopia was a little side project for me that got bigger and bigger. So it was about, it was just about getting old that And the beautiful thing for us, of course, it customers paid upfront. [00:09:00] So they, they transacted, they gave us their money. We then hustled as hard as we could.And then our suppliers, mostly in the book industry is, is that it's 30 days end of month. So in some instances we may have sold the book on the first, second, third, fourth of the month. We didn't have to pay that for, you know, almost 60 days later. So there was an aspect of using our customer's money. They were our investors, they, they handed over their money and we, we worked hard to hire more people hold more stock, write more software, buy more automation.Yeah. But there were times when we when we moved, when we change facilities, we invested in automation and our suppliers were, were stretched to we, we were late in paying them. We had to continue selling more books to then eventually pay them. And, and then we got to the next level and we finally were able to.Kind of get some clean air again. And once we'd done through that light not make money for that was until 2016 and that was incredible, but that was on par. [00:10:00] So it was on purpose. It was on purpose. And what happened was we tried to IPO in 2016 we had got to 80 million in revenue and we we went through the whole journey and it was basically like going down to Bondai beach and Sydney on a mid winter's day to try and sell ice greens with a southerly coming in from the Antarctic.And it was eight degrees because temple and Webster were trading at 15 cents. Then now at $10, a Kogan had flatline over the six months since they had listed SurfStitch was going off. The market red bubble had gone backwards. And so it was there. And then the, the week that we were trying to firm up the price and do our management roadshow, Amazon announced they were coming to Australia and the fund managers all said, well, they're going to annihilate you.So we're not interested. And, and we had to go away and do go from 80 million to 200 million in the meantime. And so Amazon didn't annihilate, but the one thing I took away from. From that particular process, was that okay. Growth has been great and, and putting all the money [00:11:00] back in has been terrific, but I think we now need to become a little bit more sustainable and, and focus on revenue and profit.And, and so we, we started to focus on profit and build that up as well. So that then type it out our growth. So we didn't put as much money back in, but we had we still had high double digit growth. We just didn't have as much, but we were then is no one gave us money. If we couldn't raise money ever, ever, ever, ever.Then we still had our own business too, and we were still funding it then. So they put us in a stronger position and that's why we, we shifted. And I shifted from being a revenue based business. And in the early days of the internet, people really didn't care about profit. They just wanted to know that you were growing.Yes. But it'd be, I, it was clear to me that especially talking to fund managers, they wanted to know that if they put the money in it, wasn't, it wasn't only going to be potentially capital growth, but it was also going to be dividends as well. In long-term yeah. When you're talking about sustainability, you talk about in terms of the needs to be the cashflow and the [00:12:00] profit.Isn't sustainability though. Also about stabilizing your supply chains and stabilizing distribution in Australia. Tell me about it. So you had to not invest as much money back in your business, as you had to stabilize a sustainable distribution network. How did you do both? How did you do all of that?Nope. The way that most people do that is they, they understand their supply chain model and where they can get their product from and how that works. And then they start to order and and build up a level of capacity that Takes into consideration the slowness of whoever whoever's supplying you.So in our case the, the algorithms that we write to, to order the stock that we needed for the. 150,000 titles that we had in stock was to make sure that yeah, we would buy them out and have zero for a little while, but then it was coming back in now algorithms, cause we've got the funding is to hold as much as we can.So we, our low tide is well above the zero [00:13:00] point. And so then you do that. What I'm doing now though, is which is more exciting for me having moved from online retailing about four or five years ago, we got into distribution. Now the publishers are appointing us as their Australian distributor. So we go to ourselves, but we also sell to Amazon and Dimmick's and QBD and all the little indie bookstores, whether they buy from us, buy from us.So we've actually, we've actually addressed that supply chain by saying, Hey. We can hold your books. We can actually sell more if you keep less. And of course for Booktopia we get better discounts because we are the distributor now. And so that's one of the areas. Okay. Thank you. And, and then also we are we're talking to printers, like for example there, there are printers, there's a legal publisher here in Australia.They print in Sydney, their warehouses in Canberra, which is three and a half hour drive away. So they drive all the stock and all the product down to Canberra, put it in the warehouse. Some PR obviously gets sold in Canberra, but it's mostly in Sydney and [00:14:00] Melbourne. So then it all comes back to Sydney, into Melbourne, right?What the hell? Like my company is making money out of that. And there's yeah, there's even at the last semester we were very big on academic books and one of the PhD students ordered a book from us, which John Wiley is the publisher. So we ordered it from Wiley. It's a. PhD books are not many are needed.So it was print on demand. It was printed in Singapore, which is the PID partner. They then ship it to Queensland. Where there John Wiley shed is their distribution center is they then freight it down to us and Sydney and we sent it to the customer. What the hell, how much it's all going to the freight companies?So my goal over the next 10 years is really to address that Leia historically in the book industry. Cause it's been going for 570 years and certainly for the last several decades, it's very siloed. So the printers did the printing and the publishers did the publishing. The distributors held the books, the authors write, then the literary agents represented them and so forth.It's very, very silent and I'm looking [00:15:00] at it addressing that without investment in logistics and publishing which we've also stabbed in the last couple of years. And and, and just kind of see if we can remove some of that and have that profitability. Sit with us, give more to the author.And, and hopefully make the price very compelling to the customer. What you're also doing is taking over proud of the market. That's never been addressed. You're doing something you're making a unique offering that hasn't been available to authors until now. Yeah. And one of the reasons for that is The lucky thing for me is I'm not really a reader.I actually do. I listen to audio books. I listened to a lot of audio books, but to sit down or because I have ADHD is that I I don't, I was never much of a Raider. So I came into the book industry as, as an outsider, looking at it from a very different perspectives. They had a very, like, this is the way it always was the way it always is.We're looking across the valley of, of publishing in the book, industry gain, look at our valley and I'm going well, [00:16:00] I'm in a helicopter looking from up here. Or I went over to the other side of the valley, or I sat down through the river through the middle of it and I got a different perspective. And so from my view, I just didn't see it the way that they saw it.And I just saw other opportunities within that. One of the things that you saw was a belief in a business model. I'm going to say it. Perhaps Amazon may have been on your mind in a couple of those meetings. How did you know to keep going? When this monolith had decimated the U S book market and the publishing industry around the world, how did you, I want to know your thinking.Cause it's more than a punch that you've done. This is well, in the beginning though, the thing was, is that Booktopia was started with no light bulb moment or insight, or there's a gap in the market. It was just a side project, $10 a day. We used another company to manage our site and fulfill our orders because they had done it for one of our internet marketing clients, Angus and Robertson.So they built the site for you as well, the first ever ordering. [00:17:00] Yeah, they, we got through our internet marketing consulting business. We got Angus and Robertson. One of Australia's oldest bookstores, their website to the top of Google as a project. And they use this company in Sydney to manage their site and fulfill their orders.And this company managed 80 bookstores websites. So my brother who had done that project set up a meeting and Christmas of 2003 pitched the idea of, of of us. Being introduced to their other clients and getting them all to the top of Google so they can make more money. And the owner of that company said not interested.I said, you're not interested in making more money. I said, seriously. And he goes, he goes, no, we build websites. We manage you. We've got this platform that we can, we can get a bookstore website up and running within 10 minutes, 10 minutes. There's a million books on there. And if you sell anything, we pay a commission.I said, well, that sounds interesting. Yeah. And he goes, yeah, I know, but no internet, only businesses have made anything out of it's all been off the back of a traditional bookstore. So I went away from that meeting. I [00:18:00] said to my brother, he said, what? Wouldn't mind giving that book thing a bit of a guy.Cause I could see there was very little cost from outside other than driving traffic and, and getting a commission. And, and so I kind of went away from that, came up with the name, Booktopia registered the business and sure enough, this company got the Booktopia website up and running within 10 minutes with a million books on there.And my brother handled the finances, said. You can stop Booktopia it's gotta be outside of hours. Cause we're doing all this consulting work. And I said, sure. Yeah. So you was selling your time for money as a consultant, not even. Visualizing the vision of what God's hope you could become. No, we had no idea my brother, right.My brother read the sales plan. You'll you'll sell one book for the first three months and then it'll go to two and then it'll go, right. This is awesome. This is awesome. And my brother finances gave me a budget of $10 per day to start. What did you spend the $10 on? I've been dying to ask you that question.Google ad words. I was a Google ads, Google ads, but I didn't [00:19:00] go for search terms like books or bookshop or, or or, you know, those kinds of generic terms. I went for authors and titles and sent them deep into the site because they had already used Google to do a search. So I sent them to where those books were and it took me three days to sell my first book.And that was the total sales for the day one book. At the end of the month, I had done $2,000, but by the fourth month, I was up to 30,000 a month by the end of the year, a hundred thousand dollars a month by the end of two years, $200,000 a month. So We kept publishing distribution back then they, so that, that company that managed our site amazing, they took care of it all for a commission.That's all right. Yeah. Well, they, we got a commission for generating a sale, so it was a white label system. They had 80 odd stores that they were managing and they, they did Angus and Robertson, Collins books bunch of other independent bookstores. And, you know, we were one of them and then we quickly became one of their largest and it was once we got to [00:20:00] around 2 million in revenue we could see that there was something going on here.And I went through the Australian booksellers association annual conference in 2006, and we were still doing the internet marketing. We were still using this other company. And I came back from that and I said to the family, these guys have no idea what's going on. We got to go out and do this ourselves.And because of my background before internet marketing I was, I. Sorry. I was a recruitment consultant for the competing industry. And before that I was a computer programmer and my brother-in-law was an IBM software engineer. And so we had the confidence to build our own site, which we did. And in 2007 beginning of 2007, three is after we had started Booktopia.We parted ways with the other company when it moved into a small warehouse in Sydney, 500 square meters, next door, a brothel. And not that we knew that when we moved in, we had found out later and then bought some shelves on eBay. Hi, hi to warehouse manager rang the publishers and we said, it's assets.Booktopia, we're [00:21:00] turning over 2 million a year. Never heard of you. Because all our orders have been going through this other company. So we've got basic terms, basic discounts, and we still did our consulting work. So it wasn't until two years later that we could finally say, all right, Booktopia is turning over.I think it was around 7 million. So we could stop doing the recruitment or the internet marketing. So we could focus on the, the Booktopia business. What were the publishers saying to discuss, to offer you such lousy terms? When you clearly, the volume you were moving was bigger than any one bookstore or brand in Australia, we were only doing 2 million, so there was nothing there.In fact, I remember getting a letter from PSM, the education publishers to say, as you're an online retailer and have no overheads, your discount will be 10%. Now at that stage, I think we had about 10 people working in the business. I looked around at our warehouse and our shows and our people. What do you mean no overheads?I just think that it's some sort of smoke happens by magic. And so [00:22:00] it took quite a while. It took I would say another five or six years for them to really get their head around what was going on. And they started to shift because it was a very archaic industry where you know, where they they controlled everything.And, and so w once we got to 30 or 40 million in revenue, we were starting to you might've negotiated a little differently, probably. Yeah. I just got some discounts, improved terms improved once we, of course, you know, paid our bills and, and, and put more volume. Yeah. What was it like signing that first contract on the first warehouse, still working in your other job that wasn't too scary?It was $1,500 a month. Yeah, I think so. It was not much more than what we're paying for an office in, in north Sydney. But it was. We didn't hold any stock in the beginning. So we literally took orders from customers. And we would order it from the supplier would come in, you know, a few weeks later, five weeks later, eight weeks later, and people were [00:23:00] bitching and complaining saying, you don't like you guys suck.I should have bought from Amazon. And it was about a year after we had gone out on our own. So almost four years of being in the business, there's one book had been selling really well at because the author had been on Oprah and it was the wife of Jerry Seinfeld, Jessica Seinfeld and, and America had sold out of its 300,000 copies and HarperCollins in Australia had 200 copies left.So I said to my brother and brother-in-law, we shouldn't buy all of them then no one left, but except us. So we did, and it arrived into our warehouse. And imagine what keen to a bookshop where there's only like one book on the shelf or that yeah, that's how a bookshop looked at that time. So, so when this order, when an audit would come through the site, we just pick it, pack it and ship it.And the feedback from everyone was, wow. What great service you guys are really quick. And I, I said to the others, you know, to kill a Mockingbird is sold every single month for 50 years. Why, why are we ordering it in? And what else is there? How to win friends and influence people, power positive thinking, thinking very rich Harry Potter, Dr.Zeus. So a little warehouse that was supposed to be more of a cross-docking kind of thing [00:24:00] really started to fill up. And then after a couple of years, by 2009, we had to move out of there to, to 2000 square meters. And we thought, well, this will last us five years, the five years that ran out of space after two years.And then we take another 2000 square meters. And at this stage it's all manual handling of every book. Yeah. Yeah. Except we had, we bought one packing machine that in the middle and someone would have the one in, just put it through and we'll come out with a package wrapped around. And it was in 2014, seven, seven years ago when we moved to 10,000 square meters.And that was a pretty big league. We were turning over 40 million. And we moved here. And that was where we invested initially 5 million in automation and then, which was conveyed as in more packing things. And then, and then over the next few years we invested another 5 million in, in automation to improve our capabilities.And then that got us to around 150 million in revenue by the beginning of 20 [00:25:00] 2020. And that's when we did our first raise, how, how did you come to the decision to do the crowdfunding? Can you talk a little bit about that? I think our listeners would be really interesting interest in how Boulder moved.That was to even consider it. Was it over a glass of red that you came to that decision when you're on MBMA how did you crowd go to crowdfund? Talk about that. So what happened was when the IPI didn't happen and we had when you do an IPO, there was there's a lot of costs involved and we accumulated those costs and then we never raised the money to pay our first costs.What I recommend to the listeners, if they are looking at it is definitely. Accumulate the money for the capital raise rather than trying use it out of the proceeds of your business, because that really stretched us. We had a couple of million dollars in costs that needed to be paid down and that put pressure on our suppliers, which meant that we were putting, being put on stock because we couldn't pay them.We had to sell so more and it was a very tricky period to navigate and our way through to get that's not how you want to do an IPO. Yes. Well we [00:26:00] didn't have much 80 million in turnover, so we didn't have many other options, but yeah, that was our learning, our lessons and learnings on that period. So then once that didn't happen, we didn't look at a trade sale.So we, we engaged a company from Seattle to go around the world and talk to companies who might be interested in buying us because we were on track to under a million in revenue. We got no interest there, so then, okay. That's that was done. And then we the business was continuing to grow and I felt well, you know, one of the reasons why we wanted to IPO in the first place is that our customers are our hugest fans.They've been our investors all the way through buying books from us. And that's why we wanted to list. So I knew some guys who did had the crowdfunding platform and I reached out to them and I said, look, how about we do raise some capital through you guys. And so we we had some conversations and we said, we already had a prospectus that could be used reused to go to market with.And, and so we, we did that and we were going to be able to raise a few million dollars out of that. [00:27:00] And the reason why we didn't was because we also did a road show with a guy who has a company called wholesale investor. And we went to Sydney, Brisbane, and Singapore presenting ourselves to to invest at the investor community.So this was alongside the crowd funding and through those. Those events I did end up at the top of the Sheraton at 11:30 PM, edging my way to the back of the room. Cause it was so noisy standing next to this guy who we get into a conversation and he came out to Booktopia gave him a tour, told him where we were at and he goes, I think I know a guy who might be able to help you out raise some capital.Yeah. And then this guy, mark Peyton from ifs G capital came out. We really liked each other. He came into the business three to four days a week working inside. And that's the one thing I feel at that time, it felt like the problem or the reason why we weren't getting any any results in terms of raising capital is we didn't come from the capital markets and other companies who had been [00:28:00] succeeding, had someone there.Either an investor or a CEO or something who had come from the capital markets and can talk the talk of the, of that part of the world. And so, so he came on and there was things that were missing in terms of some of the modeling that we had within our books. That's helpful, more profits. So we've made some changes to some of the things that we've been doing in terms of postage and so forth, and made sure that we upped our profits slightly.And then within six months we had completed an $8 million raise. And then we also added to that $12 million of some senior debt that we had had for, we ended up having for about 11 months until the IPO, and that enabled us to, to invest in the automation that we needed to get to the next level. So that was, that was how come the crowdfunding came into play.I still won. 10 11. I wanted to have our customers own a piece of booklet. Exactly. I love that. It's a really inspiring message. How was it received by your customers? [00:29:00] W well pissed off in the end because we, we closed it off and and, and went through the traditional because we were going to raise a lot more money, which is what the business actually needed rather than, you know, three to 5 million.But they, they loved it. And those that were going to invest More than most people that were investing 5,000 and more we're invited to be on the priority offer for the IPO. Yeah. And that, that would have been great. The head away to have P feel part of the story that was unfolding. I'm interested that when you went looking around the world, there were no potential buyers.Was that because you feel you were under in terms of what those potential investors may have been looking for, what weren't they seeing that this is a stable, sustainable replicable completely. It can only scale up because all you're doing is supplying to customers, not consulting clients. So the scalability is obvious.What was the gap? That's a tricky one to [00:30:00] answer. Cause there's two types. There's obviously private equity firms who have got a specific mandate and they'll, they'll be looking at businesses in a very. Two dimensional way going, okay, where are they geographically, geographically? Are they based? What's what vertical or sector are they in?And a variety of other things and being Australian and growth, they care about growth trajectories, tremendously. They're going to show how they can make the money in five years. Yeah. The Australia was not part of their geographical mandate or, you know, what, what they were looking for for those that were in publishing.Because we're e-commerce and because of the value that we, and Amazon and others at LaSeon and so many other businesses that are out there based on it's a very different valuation than a publisher or a traditional business is based on. So they, they struggled to get their head around the multiples.So the multiples are higher. Yeah. Yeah, because not according to them though, no [00:31:00] traditional businesses there was there was little appetite there, so it just, I mean, interestingly for me after the IPO didn't happen because many reasons, but one was because Amazon was announced that we're coming to Australia.So I reached out to the Amazon through that process. And personally, directly, I reached out to the Amazon M and a team and I said, are, you know, here we are, we're turning over a hundred million a you interested in. I said we only buy businesses that we don't care what revenue you're doing. We don't care how much profit you make.They just have to be aligned to our three to five year goals. And I said, well, where Australia's biggest online book retailer, you guys sell books with turning over a hundred million and we're on track to get a 200 million. And you're saying that we're not aligned to your three to five year goals. I said, To myself, not to them.Thank you for that insight information. I will take that away and on. That was really helpful because we were seeing that Amazon was moving away from books and have been doing that globally. And [00:32:00] even though they're still the biggest book retailer, the publishers and the evidence was there, that they actually were moving more into a tech company rather than a supply chain and logistics fulfillment business.That was a very inspirational conversation to have had. So that's led you to decide then and there to do IPO again, or what was your thinking that time just to, were you always going to keep it in the family? What led you to decide to IPO again? Was that a turning point moment or what was the turning point for you?For us, it was always about how do we get money off the table? So we build a business and my brother is always, he's two years younger than me. I'm the CEO and have been he was, once we got past 50 million, it was big enough. He was happy to still leave it at 50 million revenue, pay a dividend lovely business.Thank you very much, but that's not what our, it, he may say. That's not what I wanted, but it's actually not what our customers were wanting from us. And to be fair. And yeah. And when you say that, can you just slow down? So I assume you mean by that you had to [00:33:00] provide a bigger range and faster. Is that what you mean by what our customers wanted?No, it's just that more people were transitioning online and therefore more people were coming to us. What do you do say we don't want you to buy from us. We, you need to stay at 50 million. No, they, they continued to To want to transact with us. And that's what was fundamentally, we kept doing what we were doing.More people were moving online. We were, and we did it well. So, so Simon, my brother, he, he was ready to retire, which he did just before the IPO. But part of that whole that whole journey, that goal was to how do we get money off the table? How do we convert the value of the business? So the family can know, can be set for, you know, how many generations who knows.We knew that we had done the hard work. There were many ways to, would have been happy to sell it to someone if the price was right. But that, that wasn't the way it worked out. So when we did the capital raise at the beginning of 2020, which is quite funny because I'm assuming one who is the founder and chairman of champ [00:34:00] benches and He was it wasn't through champ.It wasn't through private equity is to resign personal investment and a consortium of people who came in with him to make the $8 million investment. Six weeks later, the pandemic hit. And I remember meeting out with him and looking at his very grave and grey face going, what have I just done? I've just put what was money into a company.And we're being hit with a global restructure and, and it turned out to be one of the best investments that he's been the best investment. He made that. If you're online and you must've known it at the time, I'm going to throw that credit to you. Everyone has to go home. They have to have things to do.Now. That's not in the moment. In those days. When I, when I reflect on it, there was no guarantees who knew with the postal service stay open with, would we be able to deliver, how, how devastating was it? How, how did it, was it transmittable by, by a book? All these things, [00:35:00] there was still a lot of dust had to settle.Got it. So but things very quickly, we worked out that we were on the right track and sales kicked in excuse me. So, so what happened was we we were never planning to IPO. In that year we were going to wait a whole year because the investment that we had that they had made in us was to, to, for us to.Increase our capacity by adding more automation. We want it to go from our capacity of 30,000 books in and out per day to 60,000 out per day and an hour. That, that was a project that we'd been working on for some time and why we did the raise and that wasn't going to go live until the end of the year.So pandemic hit and we didn't have that in place. So we wanted to we wanted to get that deployed, get it optimized, and then be able to say to the market look how much profitability we have now. Look at the scale, look at everything else and, and have, have the runs on the board, but everything was very [00:36:00] uncertain and.E-commerce had moved from the wings to send a stage theater had been darkened and the spotlight was on e-commerce and we decided in August let's do it. And basically we did an 11 week IPO. Yeah, it was bloody quick. And that helped actually it helped so well because we could nothing was as long as a piece of string, everything goes, no, no, don't worry about that.We'll just, you know, just do this, do this. And so we stripped a lot of a way decisions were made quicker. And we, we were fortunate to a degree because we tried to IPO four years before and we still have that Pathfinder, which is the pre prospectus document we have We had, we had appointed out chairman four years before and we, he and I liked each other and he stayed on for those four years as our unlisted chair of Booktopia.So he'd been to our monthly board meetings. He had heard us discuss everything. I'm assuming Wong had joined us as a board member [00:37:00] already at the beginning of the year and had met with me already. Well, before that, as we discuss the plans for the business and he was on as a director. So, so there was already quite a bit of.Knowledge about our business quite often, when you try to IPO, which is what happened last time, you're appointing your, your non-executive directors. They're going into the due diligence process and the DDC meetings which is due to the due diligence committee meetings with the lawyers and with the accountants and so forth, doing all of the due diligence to then get their head around what your business is.They have a cultural match or a philosophical match about how to, how to do it. Exactly. So you had, so your feeling is, and your perception is it was successful this time around partly because you had the right people around you who already up to speed with how you were doing it. No, because it was like going down the Bondai beach on a mid day.So ice creams, right. We were oversubscribed four or five times. The value survey on the valuation of the business is [00:38:00] 300 in 15 million. And when we started probably four or five months before, it was probably more like 200 million. So e-commerce was e-commerce was really hot and we had the product and to be fair, even though a businesses value today at around 350 360 million, we're very similar in size to temple and Webster who have got a market cap of 1 billion.We've got a, we're much bigger than Adobe beauty and their market cap is in the mid 400. So we, we knew we had a very, very good business. And, and so what we've been able to do is get some money off the table. Like we had planned the school that the family still owns at this stage, I think over 40%, 45% of the companies, which is, which is Terrific.And we were able to sell down and, and and bought some and great institutional funds onto the register and very passionate about a business we're in for the long term and also the retail customers as well, who are now. So we, we did accomplish, it was very helpful to have the pandemic [00:39:00] accelerate.E-commerce exactly. What was the biggest challenge you've faced in your first 10 years when you had made a conscious decision not to make profit? It was 12 years. What was the mental challenge? Not the physical challenge of making sure you had enough money and money, but what was the biggest challenge you faced for you?I never feel like I haven't like them. The question I get asked often as, you know, what keeps you up at night? Nothing. I hit the bed, I got to sleep. So I'm I don't feel like that. It's this, you make it sound like it's it's you know, it was a big burden or that it was heavy or that it was like, oh my God, I, you know, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but we did it.It's it's never been like that. I don't think that way, I think, okay, this is what you've thrown at me out of left field. Never expected it. Okay. How are we going to deal with this? Because we will, and, and that's, that's one of the attributes that I have, I think, [00:40:00] I think so, which is quite helpful. I think maybe the things that I don't, and this is the way that I explain it when I do my keynotes to entrepreneurs and, and hopefully anyone can get this you know, through this, just through talking about it, is that Yeah, I've got a, I've got a good friend of mine.She's she's in credible talent, but she rides the highs. Like she, she has a great month or like win an award and like, she's just not there. Right. And then something doesn't work out and it's just like, blah, she's just bitching, incompliance. Right. And then she's up again. And she said, you know, I get exhausted just watching her go along this journey of like a roller coaster.Like we, we list on the, on the ASX. So we win the Telstra business award of the year or whatever. It's like, I, yeah. That's how I celebrate very little, you know, a fist pump and we're on track. And then when something doesn't work out, so the distance that I travel, right. Modulator is very flat. It's very modulator.[00:41:00] Very rolling. Rolling Hills. Yeah. And so I'm not, I'm a peaks in the valleys. And I think for me that, that. Solid being solid and, and not being. And actually she and I caught up only the last couple of weeks because I told her exactly what I what I tell people in, in I gave her that and she goes, you know, I've, I listened to that and I I've stopped myself sometimes and going, I don't need to get that pissed off or agitated or aggravated.And she, even, she, she heard me, she listened. So that was but I that's the way that I do it. And I think anyone that is in business, particularly as a business owner you get stuff thrown at you out of left field that you do not expect. The government will contact you. The regulations will change.The ASX will have a view. Yeah. In our, in our warehouse, the first time we moved in here, we moved in mid winter. It was called, of course it's a warehouse, but then it hit summer and it was 42 degrees in the warehouse. And then everyone struggled and it got to winter and everyone was fine. And then it was coming around to summer and they [00:42:00] were going to complain to fair work and it was okay, what do we have to do?Well, we're going to have to strengthen the stress into the ceiling and we've got to put these big jet engines. Two of them that are going to cost $600,000 and that'll keep it at 28 degrees and get all the hot air out. Okay. That's what we've got to do. You didn't expect it was an extra cost, but that's what you do.And you, you, you just keep pushing through that. That's that's that's what it is to be in business. You've got to say, bring it on. You also gotta be pragmatic. So the biggest challenge I faced, so you didn't really face my, my biggest challenge when I built my business in the first 10 years was my inability to trust others.As much as I trusted myself, I could do everything better all the time. And that was my biggest thing to get over. It's just that I know best. So therefore I should do best or interfere and just learning how, when to let go when it's not abdication, but delegation, which taught me systems. That was my biggest challenge.And is the only way we go. We're nothing like you. We do [00:43:00] over eight, we do eight figures, but to get to my first eight fears, I had to overcome my own BS about what others could do around me and how to build a team and what culture means. Yeah. That's interesting. So I do talk about that in my keynotes about Shlomo.So he, he also had an online bookstore and Booktopia, and his company started a similar time and we were turning over about, I don't know, five, $7 million. And I keep in touch and I called him. I said, man, how you going? And he goes, all tidy, terrible. I said, what's the matter? And he goes, well, I've had 18 angina or texts in the last three months.Wow. You're kidding mate. What's why. And he goes, well, you know, my wife and I were working 18 hours a day, six days a week. And and I said, how many people have you got working there? Cause he was turning over 2 million and we had, I don't know, maybe 12, 14 people. And he goes, oh, and there's my wife and I, and two casuals.You're joking. He goes, why don't you hire more people? [00:44:00] He goes, well, they just never do it as good as us. I said exactly, but at least they're doing part of it and they're taking it away. So if it's at 80 or 90% or 70%, but that's more because I'd come from a recruitment background. And I 14 years in recruitment, I understood hiring people.I understood what it took to bring people on board and let people go and so forth. So it was, it's been very much part of me as bringing people on and empowering them to, to give them the opportunity to grow with the business. So that was not one of the things that that I had to, that I, I had to NGO or challenge like you, you had to do.But I will share one thing with you, which I think has been really valuable to me when I was a recruitment consultant. I had contractors it contractors working for me and. I had 15 of them. And I went and did this course with Robert Kiyosaki, the guy that wrote rich dad, poor dad, about seven years before you wrote that book in the course called money in you, I did that.Or you did that. Okay, [00:45:00] great. You know what I'm talking about? 1992. And, and what happened was it was actually, I went in there because it said money, but in the end it was more about you. You probably have the same experience. And so, so I came back from that course, having had some great insights about myself, because the problem I had with my recruiting was that I got to 15 and then.I would drop back down to 11 contracts and then I came back up to 15 and then I dropped back down to 10 to eight and it just, I was stuck at this invisible ceiling. And then I had some breakthrough realizations about myself that I realized how I was self sabotaging or my thinking was not this certain.Right. And I went from 15 to 30 contractors in three months. Yeah. And then I got stuck there and I'd got back down to 24, 25 that got to 30 and then down to 20. So then I went back and did another one of these courses called creating wealth. And I had another breakthrough and I got to 45 contractors and I'd get back then.[00:46:00] And I was stuck at 45 and then I did business school for entrepreneurs in Hawaii in 93. And then I had more breakthroughs. And then I ended up with about 110 contractors working for me. Now, the reason why I share that story with you in particular for entrepreneurs, because I talk about, and I make up, I make up the scenario.And if you can hear me out, imagine if you owned them as Alrighty. I actually. Was presenting to a group of jewelers. My friend is in the jewelry business and I S I said that, you know, imagine you're in a Maserati and they all looked around the room. Yeah,well, that was quite a, that was not the normal reaction, but imagine you're in a Maserati and Maserati being an Italian sports car, quite often, it needs to end up in the workshop. And, and this particular day, there it is. You've got to drop it off and a mechanic needs to work on it. He gives you the loan and the loan is a 15 year old to Dorothy it.And you've got this very important meeting that you need to get to. And it's [00:47:00] in double bay or it's in Toorak if you're in Melbourne. All right. And you've got to get to this meeting and, and you, you get there and when you arrive there, It's a little restaurant cafe that you're meeting this new, big client that you're going to pitch to.And, and you think, well, I'll just pack in the back straight and I'll walk around and there's no parking spots and the light is light. And if you do not get there on time, right? It's a reflection on the opportunities, but there's only one spot available in front of the cafe restaurant. So you pack 15 year old two-door theater in front of the restaurant and you get out and you look at the client and they're looking at you and you're looking at the car and they're looking at the car and you're going, I mess it, rati.This is not, this is not my car. It's not, this is not who I am. Right. You got to get out of that car as you is not. About the car, right? You are not your car. You are not your wife. You are not your husband or boyfriend or girlfriend. You are not your kids. You're not your kids' academic results or their [00:48:00] sporting results.You are not your footie team. Even though one of my best mates thinks he's the Richmond tigers. He is not the Richmond tight, the Richmond tigers. And, and with Booktopia. Right. I am not. Booktopia. OPR is listed it's Booktopia that was listed when it wins the Telstra business awards. It's Booktopia. And I remember when I started it and I was walking through the apartment and pass the room where I was doing my work in, and I stopped all of a sudden in front of the door because I felt this boom, boom, boom.I felt the baby. Like I could feel the hopper business. I remember when it crowed. I remember when it took it to the steps. I remember when we went to daycare for the first day, I remember when it went to primary school and high school and went to university and went out on its own. And because I see it as a separate organism and I'm thinking all the time, what does it need?What does it need right now? Who does it need to have in its team? What funding does it need? What nourishment does it need? What [00:49:00] space does it need? Right. I am not. I have not overlaid my own ego and my own belief systems about myself onto my company, which is for me. I honestly, I can honestly say to your listeners that one of the reasons why Booktopia has had for from 2008 to 2000, 20, 30% plus company, and you guys, right.And its revenue is because of that is because I have not identified myself as the business. It's its own organism, it's its own thing. And I I'm sure that that's how Jeff Bezos and others think about their business. It's unencumbered is enabled to, to flourish, overturn a core because if it, if it was me and I had to overlay my own ego on it maybe we'd be at 60 or 70 million because that's all I could.You know, imagine of myself, it's been a very interesting aspect to the growth and the success of the business. Have you made mistakes with hiring with someone has brought their ego or their own [00:50:00] insecurity into it and tried to move it in a different direction or a bad direction or a self-serving direction?Not that because I'm, maybe I'm waiting. Maybe I'm just way too dominant in terms of my vision. I do empower people to get on with it. They, if they know what they need to do, and I'm not saying I'm, I'm not micromanaging. I think people who've worked here will attest to that. So this is what we need to do.Go away and make it manifest it, make it happen. So they have a lot of scope there, but I, I don't feel like I've been. Now that we have a board there's that aspect in terms of being listed, of course, non-executive, they can have their inputs, but I think one of the reasons that's the beauty of the Booktopia business versus say an adore beauty is that you know adore beauty, Kate has stepped back new CEO.She's very talented actually to kneel. But it's a, it was an IPO led it was a private equity led IPO. They already own quadrant owned 60% of the business. That's not the situation here, so people are investing in [00:51:00] Booktopia and see Booktopia because of the vision that I am the executive have not necessarily that it's transitioned more towards, towards you know, a, an investor led business.So You know, Jeff Bezos owns 10% of Amazon. That means 90% is owned by everyone else. It's still quite a large number, 180 billion us in, in personal wealth. But it's yeah, it's, it's I think that's one of the things, so I don't, I didn't experience that. And I, I understand the question that you asked, but I've never felt like I've been.Railroad I've certainly made mistakes. I've certainly learnt from certain things where I've been able to pivot and change and, and go, yeah. Okay. That didn't work. So let's, let's move on and let's do this. I'm sure you get a lot of questions about your mistakes. I'm generally pretty interested to know what are you most pleased about in terms of strategic thinking?People will say you only learn from your mistakes. You don't learn from your successes. That is not true. I've learned stacks from when I'd make a good strategic decision, and I'm going to keep doing [00:52:00] that. Where did your strategy really serve for you to get to where you are now? As you look back in hindsight, you can think, ah, I see now why that really contributed.It's asking that one question over and over. What do our customers through through asking that and exploring that and be curious, curious around it, holding stock, investing in automation all the things that we've done to, to. Complish that has, has led us to here. So I think that that has been one of the the most insightful and valuable things that we were able to hold onto as a, as a, a guide along the journey people ask me, is they all the time, the same thing, actually oddly enough I give them the tour of the facility.So they see all the automation and the robots and the automatic packing machines, conveyors, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of books everywhere. It's like, they go crazy. And as we were walking back towards the office, they say, oh, you must be so proud how proud you must be. And I say, [00:53:00] I say to me, I said to them, this is pride to me.Imagine yourself in a pitch black room where you can't even see the hand in front of your face, that you. You know, when you take a step forward that you're on track or off track, simply by the way that your foot strikes the ground. Nah, that doesn't feel right. That that's where I'm going to be. That is pride to me.So it's very, very internal. It's very internal. It's a very, yeah. Internal sense of knowing they say that in the money in you, I remember that flip chat that height was on track only 3% of the time and 97% on you know, correcting and re and reconnecting back to be on track. So it's a bit like that.So yeah, I'm the successes to me in terms of some of the things that have come that have come through is, is like, is that knowing that you're on track? Knowing that that, and that, that you're not, you're not there yet. Like one of the thing with the IPO people asking me, oh, you must be, you must feel fantastic.It must be [00:54:00] great to list. And like I could tell by the way they were asking, it's like, this is kind of feels like you finally made it. And I said at the ASX, in my, in a speech to the people that were there, I said, I said, here it is. This is the way it feels to me. It's like being on the tour, de France you're on the 10th stage.And the IPO is the 40 kilometer go banner, where you've got still 40 Ks to get to the top of the mountain to finish the stage. And after that, you got an another 11 more stages before you get to the sharps Elisa. When you get to drink champagne with your mates, go 20 kilometers an hour and, and make it to the finish line.I said I said, this is just assigned to say, you're on track and you want that in your revision mirror really quick, because it's focused on whatever you got to do next. And that that's how that the IPO and many of the other things that we've accomplished as well, Telstra business awards, so forth, I'm sensing from you.And I'm sure it's coming through to our viewers. You ha you've become more of you through this process. And not [00:55:00] less of you. I see a lot of business owners have success. I would call a successful or a business that's in the public eye and they seem to magnify aspects of themselves that perhaps they wouldn't be pleased with.As they look back, I have a sense that you're pleased with. As you look back of you becoming more review in the aspects of you that you like about yourself. It's I would, I would put more of that down to marriage. Nice. Yeah. You know, my wife and I have been together for almost 10 years. My son is 18, so yeah.I never got married, but I I'm a father and and my ex works in the business. My wife was married before, I've got a 15 year old stepdaughter and, and I, I would say that re you've got a lot of hope and you've got a lot of you know, imagination about why you want to marry that person and be in that relationship.But I can assure you it is at times you do not feel like you're going to be married the next day. And that [00:56:00] divorce lawyers are going to be, I going to be cold in, but you talk it through and you love each other and you keep discovering, you know, how you're, how you're connected and you know, what's not working for you and why what's going on for you.And it's it's businesses. Life is like that. It's, it's a, it's a, an emotional. Marriage of, of, of achiever accomplishing something together and, and that it's easy to bail out and go, you know, I'm pulling the rip cord and I'll see you back down on the ground. You know, I'm out of this one, it's going to crash and burn or you're in it for the longterm.So, so I have no there's no guarantees that cath Catherine and I are going to be together. We just are in it every day. And Y that's how businesses is as well. It's like, you've got, you've got, you're dealing with issues and you're being, you're being asked to step up and learn and challenge yourself.And, [00:57:00] and and that that's, you know, that you're either, you're either invested in your own personal yeah, that's what I'm sensing in. You, you either are invest in becoming the best of you and you bring that and business requires that. So does marriage. You've got to want to bring your best to it for the best of it to flourish, or it's not going to be the best.It's going to be some facsimile that just can't sustain. That's right. Add on top of that parenting, would you even take you at a whole nother level? But I think, I think for me that even one of my best mates product from when I went to high school, he goes, Tony, I know you from, I know you from high school Chatswood high school, just a typical, you know, public school.And he goes, how the hell did you end up here? Like what? I know that kid. Right. It's impossible to think that you're the guy, but it's just that personal mission that voyage of discovery to find out more and ask those questions and to go deeper and [00:58:00] understand yourself and unpack. I liked, I liked to do personal development workshops.I did many of them just with Robert. I did tons of different ones to me now being in businesses like a personal development workshop, being in a marriage and being a parent is like a personal development workshop to act like it's not it's to let down the other team, you'll let down your business. You let down your wife or your husband, you let down your kids.If you don't see this moment as an opportunity for ourselves to grow, cause then we put it on them and it's up to them to change it's up to them to do bad, or it's up to them to stop it rather than saying, what can I own in this? That's what I got from my personal development. How much of this can I look within rather than.I can easily point don't get me wrong, but how much can I look within myself? If there was an entrepreneur starting out today, what would you be talking with them or mentoring that mentoring them about other than the basics and getting the fundamentals in play? Most of the time when I meet entrepreneurs what's missing [00:59:00] is that the point of cash?Where is someone going to hand over the money to that's something. And I'll share with you a story. When I was at business school with Robert Kiyosaki in 1993, I The course of 16 days, it was incredible. You at 7:00 AM and you're running team, you finished at 2:00 AM and your marketing teams. He flew people in a crisis, many different subjects all through the, through the 16 days.I learned so much and it was three years before I started my own company. But during, on one of the days as a, just as a process, as a, as a challenge at the break, he sent us out and said, what I want you to do is I want you to go out there. And we were in Hawaii on the big island of Hawaii, and I want you to go out there and sell.And if you got a dollar bill in your pocket, just take it out. That was 150 in the course, just go around and sell it. And if you, for the point of integrity of the process, if you could be the, the one being sold to, if you feel like you want that, then you got to hand over your dollar. And I went out and I was in recruitment.So I went out hard and strong. Like we've got the [01:00:00] best business, we've got the biggest, we advertise more in marketing than anyone else, Ellison in the newspapers. And we, we attract more candidates and so on and so forth. And I was just saying all these. You know, it was really intense. And I came, I came back in after that, I had not made one back test as a really hopeless, you know, I'm the best salesman in my company that that really sucks.And so I walked back into the room and the course goes on the next break. He does the same thing. I changed my tactic and I, I'm more loving, you know, I listened, we listened to our candidates. We, we understand what they need. We talk to our clients really looking for what they want. And we, we do, it's like a matchmaking service and people were much kinder in the feedback this time around tenure.I really love what you're saying, but no, I don't think so. I went back into the room and go that price that's really sucks. I hate that prices I'm in the best salesman in my company. And so of course goes on. Then we take the next break [01:01:00] and I do something completely different. I sit in the corner with my arms folded and my legs crossed and I said, well, you can go and get stuffed.Right. That didn't work either. Can't believe it. Yeah. While I was sitting there and got into myself, you know what? I just, this is not right. What am I not thinking? What am I doing here? That's this is, I've got, something's got to change. And while I'm sitting there, I realized, oh my God, two years ago, I remember I did that.That remedial massage course, I can go out and offer a massage. So the next break, I offered three minute massages for a dollar. I made four backs. And seriously, when you ask that question, in terms of entrepreneurs, it's about really understanding where the Kashi is. So when, when we had our before our internet marketing business, we had a chat software company and the.com crash.And we were not, no one was interested in putting chat software in the website. We couldn't pay ourselves a salary. My son had just been born. My [01:02:00] brother and brother-in-law his families. They, I mean, they did, they couldn't earn any money. My parents were giving us a bit of money to make it through. And I was speaking to a web designer asking them.How do you, how do you get to the top of Google? Like if we were at the top of Google for the software that we had, which was chat software for the internet, how do you get to the top of Google as someone does a search? Cause they'd been goin
114 minutes | Jun 2, 2021
Lisa Forrest - Diving In The Deep | #Perspectives Podcast
Perspectives Podcast Lisa Forrest - Your Show Notes[00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to this epiSo,de of perspectives. I am going to be your host today. I am Sharon Remy PearSo,n and today we're going to be chatting with ex former Olympian, Lisa Forrest. Who's written a wonderful book called Glide I hope you've had a chance to read it. So, you may remember the Moscow Olympics in 1980 were ground to a hold or had So, much controversy, , because it was the Olympics that the politicians wanted to boycott.And Lisa swam at the Moscow Olympics and subsequent to that in the Commonwealth games here in Brisbane in Australia, she became a household name because of that shoe in not, she was 14 years old when she did her first Commonwealth games, what a remarkable human being. She was captain of the Moscow Olympic team, a small band ofathletes that went in the face of death threats, controversy, news [00:01:00] headlines going either way, slamming them or supporting and celebrating them. Her family was receiving death threats during this time. And after that, as I mentioned in, I think it was 1982, she swam and won gold two gold medals in the Brisbane Commonwealth games with the home crowd, just going crazy for her after her retirement, from swimming at the ripe old age of, I think, 19, she went on and had an amazing career as a journalist.She was on the midday show. I think it was with Ray Martin set afternoon football. She had her own shows. She went on to a show called everybody on the ABC TV and So,me other shows as well. She alSo, trained as an actor in New York, but all the way through this, there was another narrative going on. So, the external looks amazing and shiny and filled with success and applause and gold medals.And under the water, there was So, much more going on. I mean that metaphorically within Lisa and So, in Lisa's book glide she talks about the challenges she was facing [00:02:00] going on within her, within facing her emotions. , What it meant to be mentally tough as a 14 or a 16 year old, not wanting to feel that tough.She talks in glide about how to be mindful and filled with compassion. When it seems everything around you, all the stimuli coming your way is telling you to be any other way. And now she works as a mindfulness coach and a mindfulness trainer teaching the principles of compassion and mindfulness. As she describes, it's two wings of this beautiful bird and how to navigate life in a way other than being a perfectionist, other than being tough, other than never facing her vulnerability.And seeing as weakness, she paints a very different landscape about how we can be and how we can navigate the beauty and the joy of life. And her message is very inspiring. I must say reading the book, there were times I was thinking when, when this hero being Lisa find within her, that it was always within her and I won't give you the [00:03:00] punchline, but the epiSo,des worth hearing about how she transformed her internal dialogue, her internal narrative, So, that she felt as beautiful on the inside as her life looked on the outside.And here she is Lisa forest. So, where are you? Are you in Sydney? Yes, I'm in Sydney. Yeah. And we live in the inner city and Redfin. So,. We've been here for oh, more than 20 years. So, you could buy a place under half a million in Redfern. We did back then notI grew up in the Northern beaches in Sydney, but my mom grew up in the inner city. So, my Nana was living here all her life. So, we were, we went between the two all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic, great stories from Sydney. I felt, I don't know Sydney really, except as a tourist. So, you introduced Sydney and there was a lot of, a lot more heart to it.The way you wrote about it than I've imagined it to be, which was beautiful. I really enjoyed that. Thank you. You mean in terms of the eDee Whyladies growing up [00:04:00] by the beach? Yeah, I was very lucky. I mean, it is a charmed, you know, way to grow up and I was just lucky, like dad was the Bondai lifesaver. And then, then at a certain point he decided that he'd rather rather board ride, , or ride a board.And So,, yeah, he, they had a place at Newport. , before, long before I was born and back then there was no sewage or anything. It was just a holiday place. So, mumand dad would drive the caravan up there for this block of land. And then once I decided to get married and have kids, they moved So,rt of back towards where there was a school and a bus route and, you know, all that So,rt of stuff feel.In So,me ways you, you, your parents were sung heroes in your book, but I think even more So, they were an unsung hero. A theme in the book was their heroism in how they were just So,, self-sacrificing and placing you center in your dream center to their world. So, I thought that was. Beautiful the way they've done that.And my hat goes off to them. That kind of parenting. It's [00:05:00] interesting, isn't it? Because we talk about helicopter parenting now, and yet they were, you know, when you use the word self-sacrificing they just cause certainly for dad. , I think we were his world. Like my, my dad was a shy kind of, you know, he was really happy in his own world.He's a surfer, he was a swimmer. He didn't really need a lot and loved where I grew up and obviously loved mom. And then we came along and he was, he worked on building sites and we just were, you know, we were his world and we still aren't really like, you know, he will say if I go to visit him and be like, you know, see you next week and he'll say, can't come So,on, enough love at the same time, they weren't helicopter parents.And it's just more, if I was interested in swimming, which, you know, I showed an interest from that first day down at the DUI ladies, then, you know, he'd helped me do it. And likewise. , you know, if, if I wanted to, whatever it was in terms of, , training, he would get me there. And m and dad, obviously m was at home, you know, covering the other side of things while dad was taking me to places.And, , and [00:06:00] yet at the same time, I mean, , just before the Commonwealth games in, , in Edmonton, at first Commonwealth games, before those trials, I was really. Like exhausted this one particular night, we were training very hard. We, we trained back then in the way that no athlete would train now. But, , but I said to him, I got out of the pool and I was in tears.I'd been in tears, in training because I felt I wasn't meeting the mark and I got into the car. I said, I'm retired. It's not worth it. This, this is no fun. And he dropped me off at home. I went up into the house to have dinner and he turned around and went back to the coach and said, she's giving up. There was no trying to talk me into it.It was just okay. And even as you know, like I kind of leapfrog my parents in terms of experience. Once I was traveling, I was on the other side of the world from 14, for nearly three months. And they were back here all the time. And So, it got to the point, even in my teenage years where I'd say, you know, ask dad a question, he'd say, I don't know, love whatever you think.You know, he wasn't, he just was, he was like, I don't know. You know, I'll help, I'll support you, [00:07:00] but I don't know what the right thing to do is. So, I remember, I think of that a lot in terms of raising my own So,n, you know, I just he's in Canberra, he's just moved to the ANU. And, , I certainly miss my parents a lot.So, I said to him, we'll come down. As often as you need us, there'll be a point where you don't need us. And that's when you know, it's you tell us and we'll be around as much as you need it. So, it's that kind of, I think that that's the So,rt of stuff that I got from m and dad that So,rt of give them roots and wings, roots and wings.That's what we've got to give to them. So,me wings. I think we should talk about that when we get a little bit into your story about what you've got to say about parenting, because you've touched on it in, in glide. And I really enjoyed that. There was a little pieces of narrative. I thought you want to go further there.That's the next book? Well, it's funny. Cause I've told a lot. I mean, now I'm the, I'm a parent of an adult, right. Is 18. He's in Canberra and I've often is So,mething that's always fascinated me. I I've watched people in my time. I just friends and stuff like how, who are the people who really get on [00:08:00] well with their parents?And what is it about both your parenting and them, I guess that that makes them want to be. Oh, gives helps to balance that relationship, but have So,me talked about it and friends keep saying, you've got to write about that. You've heard about events because everybody is having that challenge. Oh yes. I've heard So,me stories.So, Lisa let's do the formal part. You're extraordinary. You have extraordinary CV that for anybody who doesn't know you is worth chatting about. So, congratulations on your successes. And I hope I trust. I'm sure you look back with a feeling of. Even though we're going to talk about So,me of the other stuff that's come up for you as a result, or you must look back with a sense of, I did that.I did that at 14. That was me. I'm remembering me at 14 to you. It's one of those things that it hits you at different times. You know? , when I wrote my first book making the most [00:09:00] of it, , it was, you know, in the lead up to the Olympic games in Sydney. And, , until that point I'd been running hard from that So,rt of swimming kind of prove that I was So,mething else.And So, suddenly in this lead up to Sydney, I had a whole lot of friends. I lived in the inner city, nothing to do with my sport life at all abruptly. So,, you know, I'd done that. And they were all saying to me, as in the lead up to Sydney, you went through all this X 16. And at that point I was like, yeah, I did.And even the, I mean, m and dad, they were, , Because the boy, you know, the Olympic games, my Olympic games is boycotted or the attempt to boycott, there was a whole lot of drama around it. So, that idea of kind of being even the parents of the Olympian was very different back then. So, m and dad stayed in a hotel for four days.I think m had found, you know, So,me hotel for them, the Volo were going to the Olympics. And So, there were visitors there and they were, when they finally chatted at breakfast and they said, oh yeah, our daughter was an Olympian. Your daughter's an Olympian. So, even they got to feel this So,rt of pride of that.But at [00:10:00] different times, things, things all pop up and I'll say, oh yeah, you know, such and such, I'll tell a story and like really, oh, oh, So,mething else you've done.So, let's start back. You, you became a champion swimmer at the age of 14. I'm trying to remember me at 14. And what I thought was a big deal. And can you paint a picture if you can recall. What was in you to be that disciplined? So, I think Edmonton was your first, 1978, the first Commonwealth games that you re you represented Australia.Congratulations. And you had a silver medal in the, in backstroke. That was, I think, tended to be your specialty 200. Can you introduce us to how you could be? I don't wanna use the word discipline, So, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, what it was that led you to be able to achieve that that's as [00:11:00] vague as I can make it to let you fill in the space for us.Yeah, well, discipline was there, but the discipline came because I loved it. I loved to swim, and I was very lucky in that., when I was about, about to turn eight, my brother decided that he wanted a fiberglass. So,, Ford, my dad had been an old Bondi lifesaver. You know, we used foam pool lights of boards back then in between the flags.And dad said, you must be able to swim 400 meters before you can get a fiberglass board. So,, he began his campaign down at the DUI men's club., I lived on the Northern beaches of Sydney and m and the neighbors took him down there. They were members. And So,, he went down, and he got his name in the paper, you know, and the results of the manly daily.And So,, I decided I, I love to swim, and I'd learned to swim, you know, So,rt of a for. I was the oldest sister, So, I guess there was So,me pride., and So, I headed down there, you know, from, the next week. , but true to form, I was a bit of a crier. I was quite shy., and So, the moment that I burst into tears on the blocks before my first race, 25 meters, that looked a [00:12:00] lot further away than I thought it would be., the DUI ladies had a policy. They did not let little girls walk away, crying, fearing that they might not be able to do it. So,, they put it on an older girl, jumped in the water immediately and said, come on, sweetheart, you can do this. And So,, she walked, you know, the gun went off. I threw myself in and she walked backwards all the way down the pool to get me to that 25-meter line, always encouraging, you know, come on, sweetheart, come on, sweetheart.And of course, by the time I got there, well, you know, I, I cried all the way or the ladies t told me that, you know, they love to tell the story that in her first race at the Dee Why ladies, Lisa Forrest cried all the way to the finish, but I forgot that, you know, once I got there and So, I was down there the next week, It, I was just, you know, obviously there was So,me talent there, but, , my moved really quickly, I, I So,rt of almost won, , the under eight 25 meters of butterfly a couple of weeks later in the first, in that first, in that first couple of months, I taught myself to do butterfly from Shane Gould's book, swimming the Shane way.I broke a state record at 10. I won state championships at that [00:13:00] age. So,, I was at my first nationals at 10. I went to get So,me experience, So, I just loved it. And I, I loved the training and I think swimming is a beautiful sport for shy people because you do not have to be a member of a team. You know, you can So,rt of talk to people in your own time.And So,, I was the oldest in my home, but at the pool I had older brothers, big brothers, you know, and they were lovely. And I just, I loved it. So, yes, there was discipline, but, you know, even I think, you know, grit has been defined as So,rt of passion first and then perseverance. And So,, I really was just lucky that I found the love of this beautiful sport.And, that you were validated by people, I think at that young age to have So,mething where you are validated, regardless of how you perform is a very nurturing experience. I think we do not all have. Totally like you cannot separate the two, that first race. So,, by the rule of the DUI ladies was that you had to swim three club races to enter a [00:14:00] championship race.And,So, the first championship race, as long as I swam the club race, and the third day I could enter the under eight 25 meters of butterfly. And, and the, and So, I nearly, I nearly won it. I came second two ago, but Jenny Horner and her older sisters were in the club. The m was a secretary. They were Dee Why lady style.I came from nowhere. And So,, this was a big deal, I guess. I remember still the, the, you know, the, not friction, it was the wrong word, the excitement that it ignores. And therefore, who was the president? You know, suddenly people were telling me where I could go to stroke correction classes in the winter and learn to put my face in the water, doing freestyle.Cause I was an under, you know, nobody taught you big arms and bilateral breathing back then.and So, suddenly I had done So,mething that was. Impressive, and So, yes, that comes with it. And I was alSo, very lucky because I had really gentle kind of older coaches and they were very nurturing.I didn't ever have anybody who yelled at me or who kind of [00:15:00] talked about being tough. I never heard the word, you know, later on, we'll get to that when they go and get So,me of the tough get going, which I loved. But back then, it was just, I think I trained hard, and I liked it. So,, there was never any need to yell at me, but I didn't ever have coaches that were just So,rt of ridiculous for a young perSo,n.You know what I would call ridiculous. So,, I had nurturing, you have a gentle spirit. And So, that was nurtured when you were younger. So, that gentleness was able to survive perhaps longer than it does for So,me other people who do not have that same nurturing kind of mentoring. Yeah. Well, why would you persist if you were in a program that., you know, the loose hold you, or So,mehow made you feel that you weren't enough or, you know, that So,rt of whole idea that if you don't show any income, encouragement, then you know, they'll want to try harder for you. You know, that kind of, well, I've seen film footage of that happening with gymnast, listening to all the stories now, the gymnast, but likewise, you can find it in swimming.You can find it in all So,rts of places. You [00:16:00] did find it at Edmonds. Well, even then, you know, I mean, I think that, I swam for Australia at a time. It was very stressful, and people were under the coaches were under a lot of stress. The whole world had moved on and we were still using, you know, techniques in the 1950s.Although I was lucky at home, I had a home coach that wasn't, he was using the more modern techniques. And So,, it was Tracey Wickham. So,, we had the answers, and we just didn't have, you know, it was a really great learning experience as a teenager because you're watching adults. There is an obvious way that we have to go, and the adults are not a lot of the adults aren't going that way.So,, what makes you an adult that doesn't want to change? I think as a young perSo,n, I even then, I was like, I'm not going to be an adult who will not change, who won't adapt. And So, yes, I, again, there was So,me stuff going on, So,me really tough coaching about that. So,, people who don't want the story. So,, you went and you're on the team.You're 14 years old. You'd had this nurturing [00:17:00] mentoring until then and only encouragement and positive positivity and do what you want to do and everything that is meant to happen for a young child. And then you had to go away for months training. I'm Australian captain Honolulu. Yeah. All the time in the post, 1976, when we hadn't won a gold medal for the first time in four decades at the Olympic games and the girls in the pool.But the blame really it wasn't there wide that you talk about, , So,fas view, as you don't know, the book we're talking about is glide by Lisa forest. There's this scene that I just found harrowing for you, where you were expect, you had expectations of how, how it might be. You'd never done it before the accommodation was lousy.You were treated literally like you weren't first class or worth. Championing and bringing out your best. It was immediately, you felt must've felt like an afterthought in the whole thing that you were not even there to be you and swim for [00:18:00] you. You were there to reclaim and redeem them. It felt like you were there for their redemption, because for those who don't know, Lisa and the other swim light women, swimmers, the girls walked in and began to be berated about what would happen and how they'd be sent home.And what was the list of possible transactions? Same time. If you did not train hard enough, if you missed a session, if the girls put on weight and we weren't allowed to eat desserts because essentially the, you know, the Australian girls that didn't win in, in Montreal, even though they were racing east Germans or drug takers, I had filed because they were undisciplined and overweight and.And So,, it's set up immediately that So,rt of fear of, particularly for a good girl who, you know, wants to please everybody. that kind of fear of, oh my God, what might happen? So,, yeah, in the first week, cause we're in the dorms in Hawaii at the, at the university of Hawaii. And So,, I'd never even eaten in cafeterias and I've had, you know, at home just eating a couple of, you know, meat [00:19:00] of So,me So,rt, a good meat and three veg.And I went into a cafeteria where. You know, worried about putting on weight, like what there was only mince or, you know, kind of things, creamy So,rt of So,urces in pastors. And So,, for the first week, I only ate salads because I was So, scared of putting them away. And at the same time I was joking. Now, Mr.King, you know, is passed away, but it's not to say that he wasn't gentle. He wasn't nurturing because he was lovely. And he did really like me. I felt like, but he was old school. So,, we got there on the Monday. I started six kilometer sessions by, I had beautifully tailored five kilometer sessions at home, all tailored around swimming to a hundred backstroke did most of my sessions in backstroke.By the end of that first week, we were swimming eight and nine. Kilometers per session twice a day, I was eating salads. So, suddenly then we're like, oh, we need to look up to her. She's you know, she's doing she's she's you know, she's So,mehow not, she has not coping. So,, but in that way, it was more kind of eating.I did not dare tell him. [00:20:00] Yeah, I was 14, but there was 15 year olds. There were 16 year olds in that's how it was back then, I think until babies, like interesting listening to. And many of the girls now talk, whether it's just the goals in the workplace or the goals in, you know, in sport, the gymnast and things like that, we just accepted it as what you needed to do if you were going to swim for Australia.Yeah. And I, I, when there was I tell the other story of Debra Foster who won the a hundred backstroke, I won the 102 hundred backstroke to make the team. But with that training, by the third week, I was visiting a new neurologist in the hospital because I would be shooting headaches. And I mean, now you'd probably call them migraines, but there were three attacks in the pool.I had no idea what was happening to me. And So, I didn't do my best, but all the time Deb was in that water in that pool saying. Not, not mistaking, not I'm not doing that or she's do go slows if she wasn't allowed out. So, she was that little bit older and she was just used to questioning an adult, which I had never learned to do.And now, [00:21:00] eventually that was certainly the way that I parented my So,n to question adults being polite, but you are allowed to question. So, that was So,mething I had to learn to do. And she won that one hundred backstroke. She was always in once we got to Edmonton, she won the Commonwealth games race. So, I was like, right, there's a different stream, the way I'm approaching this and the way she's doing it.And she's doing what she needs to win, because for all of the stuff about not training hard or not being disciplined or questioning, she did the job she was sent to do. And I was like, I need to be like her. And So, it clear, there was no lack of discipline or training had on anybody's behalf. Everyone was So, desperate to.Make Australia proud, make their families better. You bring So, much to it. You're there to do your best. You're not there to goof off. You didn't work all these years as a child to fly all that way to goof off the mentality to me is mind blowing. Yeah. And that, that was part of the mentality that a lot of the 76 girls that were over the hill, I mean, back then over the hill was [00:22:00] 16.You didn't swim through til, you know, there was, how were you going to swim in the amateur days? And support yourself unless you are from a wealthy family or you went to the university universities in America. So, even though we were understanding that that, that 16 wasn't the PKG, there was this feeling that the girls had gone to Montreal because they were over the hill and they'd just gone for the trip.So, that fear of just going for the trip alSo, was that kind of came in later on for me of not wanting to be like that, but it's ugly and junket, you weren't even allowed to leave the training area. I know. I know. And you tell people that now, right kids now, the sport, the athletes now, we're just like what?I mean, I think I talk with schools once my first book came out. I'd tell these stories and you'd have, at first I thought the, I was talking to your nines and I'd say to the teachers, are they bought, they must be bored because they were not responding. They're not bored.Bribing Dickensian times is you're back in the [00:23:00] dark. And these were the amateur days. Yeah. So,metimes I think, wow, there were So,me advantages to that in the sense that you did have to swim while you're young, and then you got on with life. There wasn't this. Oh, how long can my career, you know, keep going for?, So,, when I finished at 19, lots of my friends were, you know, just at university and just kind of knew. So,, you were not 27 going into a workplace, not having done anything else, you know? So,, there was So,me advantages to it. And I think So,metimes alSo, just the advantage that you start from love. I started from love.There was nothing in it for me, all for m and dad. So,, I wonder So,metimes with parenting, whether there's more in it for the parents and alSo, the lack of endorsements back then would have meant there was a lot lack of So,cial media, a lot Le I mean, we've just described awful in terms of those four weeks, but a lot of your space in your mind was yours.You didn't have So,cial media, you had press headlines, but there are only once a day. So,cial media is this relentless mill of [00:24:00] 24 hours a day. Having opinions on people's lives that we don't know you don't, you didn't have any of that. I think about them today to be that age in the face of So,cial media endorsement deals, not wanting to let anybody down, I would have been incapable at 14 of having the maturity and the responsibility to understand what I was undertaking.I, So,cial media would have defeated me. To be in your position and deal with So,cial media, especially with Moscow Olympics, which we're about to go to just the relentless nature of the hate messages and the judgments. It's just excruciating for a child. Yeah. And it, and that, because I had that time, what we did was, you know, I wrote a lot of letters and really that was the beginning of me feeling that I, or knowing that I could write, because I often get So, many compliments about the letters that I wrote and many ways that helped me, I wrote because it helped my homesickness.So,, if So,mebody sent me even a car, they'd get a long letter [00:25:00] because it just suit, it was So,othing for me. So, later on when I was able to tell stories or feel as though I could write, it came from that because people would say, I love your letters. You know, you talk, you write like you talk or tell a great story.So, that alSo, came out of it. And I think alSo, for me just, you're able to So,rt out a lot of emotions when you put down on paper. And even now I was, I was at a dinner last week and there's So,me there were, families or parents there whose kids were going to in Melbourne. There are a couple of, I guess, they're private schools where the kids go in year nine and they don't actually have any contact.They have to write letters and stuff. They take all the phones and everything away. And I think it's a really wise thing. You know, I, I don't know how they manage So,cial media these days. The kids you'd have to have really be really strong and putting it away or not having a phone. Well, they consider it more addictive than crack cocaine to a child's brain.That's how does any child have the conscious [00:26:00] living ability? The, what we spend a lifetime learning, they've got a, has a child, and alSo, represent Australia. I just, whose who signs up for that? Now you then went to Moscow. Congratulations. I had, I was around then and I remember it. I remember So,me of the headlines.I can't even imagine what it was like for you. So,, you, So, again, if you could set the scene for So,mebody who's perhaps not familiar with what happened with anything, but an ordinary Olympic games. Yeah, sure. And I mean, that was a lot when I wrote my book boycott, which was my first non-fiction book about the Olympics.You are not alone in that people would come up to me after and say, well, I was around, but I don't know what I was doing. I just don't remember it being like that. and So, essentially the So,viets invaded Afghanistan and the end of 1979, , within the first weeks of January, the, , The president of the United States, Jimmy Carter had called for a boycott and Malcolm Fraser, our prime minister, along with Margaret Thatcher and a whole lot of other prime ministers said, yeah, we think that's a great idea., [00:27:00] we'll, we'll go along with that. However, Malcolm Fraser, wasn't willing to make that decision himself. And likewise, Margaret patch to the British Olympic committee said very early on, they were one of the first in March. We're going, you know, Mrs. Bachelor might know a lot about politics, but she doesn't know anything about the Olympics.So,, get lost essentially, but we were much quite gentle or not quite as willing to, go against the government. Our Olympic Federation took quite a while. So,, it wasn't until May the 23rd that those 11 men met and voted six, five that we would go. and during that whole period. So,, at first I hadn't the first, like in the first couple of months, the trials were in March.So,, it was just. No point worrying about So,mething until you actually make the team. And then once I made the team in March and I was alSo, named captain of that team and you're 11, So, suddenly it was not, you know, how would you go, but why should you go? So, you're talking to the media here. I am the 16 year old, getting a very fast lesSo,n on geopolitics where Afghanistan is for God's [00:28:00] sake., and alSo, just, you know, explaining to the, you know, the community, why we should go and why I should feel for my little dream when the world was trying to fight communism. , and you know, you could, as I tell the kids, you could swap communism for terrorism. The communists were coming to take away our way of life.And, , and that, you know, that's how we prepared really. And So,, it was a matter of just. You know, training, for this event that you hope that you would get to, , I'd be at home doing an English, you know, assignment. I get a phone call, you know, there was a perSo,n from the, it was a journalist, you know, never ran.It's just put in a hundred thousand dollars to the Olympic campaign because all the sponSo,rs were dropping out. So,. Wow. And how do you feel? So,, I'd give my feeling of that. So,mebody who was supporting us. Great. Yay. Go back to my English assignment, but alSo, within the. That So,rt of first week really, I've been made captain.We then started getting death threats. So,, we had a whistle by the telephone. That's what the police, recommended that we do. So, at least we could blow the whistle [00:29:00] really loud. Want one of these cold. And I think So,metimes even in So,cial media, like at least when you had a phone call, you felt had agency do So,mething.Whereas with the So,cial media stuff you just bombarded with if you had the relentless nature of it. Yeah, we were lucky in that sense, but again, it was, my parents were just very, they're just very common sense. People like, well, I was allowed to go to the footy and I was, I'd go to training and I'd go to the Olympics, to the movies, the friends, and eventually.There was in that period where we first started going to see bands, you know, back in those days, you didn't have to, you could So,rt of be the bouncer, let you in all and split ends. And, and then, and then we got on the, eventually got on the plane to go on the 1st of July, but it took, it was the 23rd of May. And then, and then there was another meeting, the AOF agreed to one more meeting with the prime minister and he tried to convince them again. And then they voted again.I think the vote was even less. It was more like [00:30:00] seven, seven, three. So,. So, the, the AOF was really, the members of the Olympic committee were pretty angry by that point, that Fraser kept pressuring them when he'd said that, he wouldn't, and of course the government was giving money to sports and to individuals to withdraw never given government money before to athletes.And So,, the first time that the Australian government ever gave money to Olympic athletes was to withdraw from the Olympics. So, it was crazy. It was a crazy time. It made sense at the time, I don't, I wasn't, I was your age exactly your age. And I never questioned the media. Lisa, I just read the headlines and read the articles and believed it all.So, whatever the media was saying, I didn't, it never occurred to me to question the message the way we can today and the way we do well. I think that was it. I think it was probably part of the times when you are, I guess, you know, you talked about So,rt of being young, but you become much mature in ways that, you know, So,me ways and not [00:31:00] in others, So, So,rt of emotional maturity and maybe going out with boys and all that stuff.I wasn't. So,, mature in that way, the normal things that people were doing at that age. But then in other ways you were, So, you were part of a history of athletes. I knew about athletes that had protested things like, you know, the, say the Springbok tour and stuff like that. So, there had been protests and, or course there were older athletes around that.I was following that. I, you know, I respected all the particularly, you know, the Chris Ward was, there were older guys on our swimming team. They were very active, Martinelli was very active. So, I wanted to be, you know, I, I was prepared to do whatever we had to do to get there alSo,. I mean, I came from a labor voting family, So, that was much easier.It was pretty much split down liberal labor lines. You didn't have a lot of independence back in those days. So,. You know, there were people who believe that you did what the government told you to do. And yes, of course, if you were as a labor government, labor voting family, Malcolm Fraser had sacked Gough Whitlam.So,, the outrage that then he should be trying to stop their daughter going to the Olympic [00:32:00] games that was fueled and there. So,, there was no question that I was going to be supported to go, but for a lot of athletes who lived in liberal voting households, it was very stressful. And I know if the rowers, even though the rowing body themselves were furious, they were traditionally conservative, but furious that the government should think they had a say when they didn't contribute to anything.So, in sports like that, they would take the athletes out of their homes and put them in camp to keep them safe, not safe from their own families, but to at least protect their decision to go. Right. Wow. That's a lot to put on kids. That is interesting. I don't know how you had the ability. Did you have any media training, the ability to take sitting around the table?What do you think? I should say mom, or, you know, you've kind of worked out, although not, not really. Like I was, I didn't think that I sit a whole lot. I don't think I was all that, bolshy. I just, I like, I look at the goals today. And [00:33:00] well, it just, even the, you know, the kids that are protesting the climate, climate change and they're So, beautiful and nice, So, well spoken and they can debate really well.I don't think I was that sort of kid. I was, we didn't have that Sort of training. It was like that. Well, I think we should go because, you know, it's not really fair. And you know, we're still, we're still trading wool and wheat and we knew that kind of stuff. So, we were still trading with these people. So, why shouldn't the athletes go?And, you know, the sport is about bridging gaps. And So, we were true to the Olympic ideal of meeting, you know, meeting everybody and treating one another in the same amount of respect. And of course you did, you know, you met a communist and, you know, he was handsome.We were out in the world in a different way to others. So, that's amazing story. What an experience for you. Do you look back on that time and how do you reflect on that time today? Oh, just lucky. You know, I think particularly when I was writing boycott, I thought. How incredible [00:34:00] to be able to go through that experience and then be able to write about it., I mean, I felt that there was quite a lot of responsibility to tell the stories that nobody, a lot of people had not heard, you know, the women's hockey team that were there was the first time hockey was going to be, and women's at the Olympic games and they'd been promised by their association that if the AOS voted for them to go, then they would go and the AOF voted on Friday.That we'd go. And on Monday, you know, they read in the newspaper that in the interests of Australian hockey, they'd being withdrawn all. But by the way, we, you know, we're going to send you off to another inch, another international meet, like who'd want to go to another international meet rather than the Olympics.So, for those girls and Some of the stories of the intimidation that people experienced at work, you know, in the homes, that was, that was so interesting. So, I felt, , very you're lucky. And of course, like back then, I can still. Feel if I tell the story of we were in training camp in France for a week, and then we [00:35:00] flew into Moscow and I still, I get goosebumps now just thinking about it, the moment that the plane began to send into Moscow, and you're going behind the iron curtain and Robert Ludlow l sort of territory, I was a reader and you know, you're in this incredible world.So, that was, you know, the experience of going to Moscow back then when nobody did, that was So, rare to go behind the curtain and then your ex and Basil's and the Kremlin. And it was, it was extraordinary. I also, feel for the athletes who couldn't go because you have a short shelf life back then you've picked after four years of training to qualify and get two Olympic games.You maybe don't have another game in you all your life for these kids. Some of them has been spent building up to that year as 1980. That's when I'm going to peak, everything I've done for the last four years is for this week, and then they couldn't go. Yeah. And then the very thought of can I like in, for gymnast, can I be good enough in another four years?[00:36:00] That's questionable. Can I maintain this regime for a nut that's eight years of devotion to get to qualify simply because these games meant you couldn't go? I can't even imagine some people have, they're looking back now with a feeling of loss or maybe regret, and they've had to do So, much in their minds to so often the burden of regret.That must be in them. Yeah. Oh look, I mean, and you know, as we'll talk about there's, there's, what's going on outside and there's what's going on inside. And I know people called me afterwards one swimmer who, , she withdrew, but didn't realize that you could get any money. So, it wasn't as though she was just felt as though she couldn't do it.And she, she chatted to me for the book. And then she called me when the book came Lisa, I thought it'd be okay. And she said, I picked it up. I went, I bought it in the bookshop. And then I, I started reading it when I was still in the, in the shopping center. And she said, I just had to stop and sit down and just cry.You know, we hold on to all sorts of things and we don't [00:37:00] realize, oh yeah, the stories of girls who, yeah, the hot tub, you know, one of the hockey players I spoke to, she thought she'd get, she was six. She wasn't much older than me thought she'd get to the next games. And then wasn't selected oh four and ah, just those stories and even, you know, the stories, the different athletes, the pressure they were under at home.And of course, there was no sports psychology then. So, it was this thing that people went through and you didn't talk about it? No, because. the sports bodies, certainly didn't want to think about it. Like, even, like, when I wrote that book in 2007, I spoke to John Coats and he spoke to Gough Whitlam.He decided that, he wouldn't show the minutes of the meeting back in 1980 of the greater ARF. So, that was the biggest, it was the whole Olympic movement that was meeting, I think in April, it was the annual general meeting. That's right. And they were going to vote then, and they didn't. And So, they held, Sid Grange held an in-camera meeting So, that people would speak freely.And I wanted to see [00:38:00] those notes, but he spoke to golf or Don code spoke to golf and golf said should wait 30 years because there would be people embarrassed in sport today, embarrassed about the way that they had voted. you would have been able to buy them. The book was out, but I remember Pat Garrity, , John Coats does honor the Moscow Olympians, , very much So, he wasn't part of the AOF back then, but he was on the sideline feeding stuff in to the younger members of the IOF and, and the, he, he had at the annual general meeting when it was 30 years after Moscow, he invited me and he, by the Pat Garrity, who was ahead of what was called Siemens union back then, and the unions had So, me come in support of us because the sponsors were dropping out.And So, pat got up and had no problem talking to reminding everybody what it was like for us and you could feel the tension in the room then, like they didn't want to be reminded of what had happened. [00:39:00] and look, that's, that's everywhere. Isn't it? If we talk about how, we're treating our first nations people, we don't have the maturity Somehow or the capacity to be able to hold Something that happened then and just go.Yeah, I've changed my mind and I; I wish that I hadn't been, I wish I'd known more. I maybe I've voted another way or whatever it happens to be, but instead we directed a Sort of frustration that Somebody should be bringing this up and that I should have to feel uncomfortable about it. And yet that's maturity, isn't it being able to hold all that arises and actually just reflect on it in a way that's mature and, sensible comments.Yes. And we only do that at the rate that we're prepared to do that we can't. Hasten maturity. We can't hasten adult hood, no matter what the number it is, how old we are. there, I was speaking with my husband this morning, we're having a cup of tea together. , and we're just sharing the things that we think is so common sense today.[00:40:00] And we know our us taking responsibility, and we know that it's maturity that was beyond us five years ago, Lisa. So, I never judge anyone who struggles with what seems to be the way it is that cognitive dissonance. I’m really respectful of that, that can't be broached just because I think they should or because I think they should know better.No, and that's right. I agree with you. Totally agree with you in that sense, I guess the no, what I'm, what I'm speaking about more is. Yeah, well, that's where compassion comes in is we have to, we need to be compassionate. Everybody has come from a different place. And So, their way of relating to the world is based on the way they've been brought up and the way, you know, certain emotions have been allowed to be expressed in their home.And so forcing it on somebody else you're right. Is and it's counterintuitive because people shut down even more. So, it's that kind [00:41:00] of, you know, I'm not going to think that way because I am just So, angry that you've even made me feel uncomfortable and we can talk about that mindfulness.And at the same time, you’re right. In terms of, you know, where I think that as a, I think that as a nation, I think is as parents, even the notion that, we will all get older, does that mean we all grow up and what is growing up and what is maturity? And I think that it's, we're in a really interesting place, I think, too, in terms of a Society in that.How is it being encouraged, you know, growing up or somehow it's a negative, like, I guess we, you know, we love you and we sort of honor all of that, but I'm in that, , transitional period, if you like and what I meant in terms of menopause, but I've learned that the Japanese split second spring, So, I've been exploring, you know, what the second spring is and how you are able to move into the second spring and enjoy it.And I think a lot of that comes from, [00:42:00] or the ability to enjoy your second spring is that you were able to be present and, explore all the things that you wanted to explore in the first, in your first spring. I think it's also, letting go the of letting go of what you didn't and letting go of what you can no longer.Yeah, absolutely. That's right. And that's a real skill. It is. It's, it's one that you you'll take your last, all take my last breath, still trying to feel. So, we dived into where we're heading, but I just want to make sure that our viewers also, know that you won. I think it was two gold medals at the Brisbane Commonwealth games.Congratulations. Thank you. Was the training there? A Software experience? I can't quite remember what you said about that. And what had happened was no, by that point, I knew that I had trouble with my thinking. , and So, I was but nobody talked about anxiety or anything like that. , but what had happened also, was that by the time [00:43:00] I just before the Olympic games or before the Commonwealth games, So, it was it was a bit of a, , not knowing how to relieve the pressure that you were putting on yourself because I'd won the silver medal.That first time I had only when I was eight years old and I saw those girls at the Olympic games in 1972, and I thought I want to do that. I'd made the calculation that 1980, I don't know that it had been decided it was in Moscow at that point. But 1980, I would be 16. I'd be in year 11. That was the games I could go to and get on with the rest of my life.But once the, still the medal happened in 78, everyone said to me, oh, you'll go one better in four years. So, suddenly that is extended. Oh yeah. I'll go before your time. And it's been So, well, I must say at the time, but anytime I want to travel Somewhere. Yeah. Comprehension of the magnificence of a home.Yes. But I was sort of struggling cause I'd done my HSC that year before I'd taken time off as m wanted. So, I finished in the top 10% of the state did my age, that was up to the [00:44:00] Olympics and then went back into the pool, , to, you know, go one better at the Commonwealth games. , and So, even though I felt like I had all of the reasons that I should be motivated, you know, for the first time m would, and dad would be able to see me swim for Australia.And I was trying to go one better and win a gold medal and all these sorts of things. I just had this heavy weight on my shoulder, and I did not know how to relieve it. And then, Rocky. Rocky three was released in the cinema just about a month before the training, the trials. Now I've been something like the dog.I was really struggling, and I was like, watch the pool. That's what, I couldn't understand. Like once I was in the water, I was fine, but it was in between those sessions. I was torturing myself and then Rocky comes in and it's pretty specific to my moment. He used to team traveling and he'd he'd beaten Rocky. And of course, Mickey he's trying to sort of died in it, spoken in scenes of that movie. And Apollo creed [00:45:00] comes back and he's training Rocky. Cause he's pretty angry with the way that, you know, clubber Lang sort of behaving. But Rocky is just not there.And, and then, you know, his beautiful wife, Adrian sort of forces him to tell her what's wrong. And he says, I'm scared. You know, I, I I'm, I'm scared. And, and she says, look, you know, In the years ahead where it's just going to be you and me and you can handle losing, but you can't handle walking away. So, I'm in the cinema.I thought I would just be going into enjoy Rocky. And So, it tells the story of the champ coming back. And I think, you know, I was able to process things. I didn't even know how to say and I walked out of that cinema. And if I was, if you like in flow, like we didn't have a word for that, but suddenly I heard no doubt.Rocky had reminded, you know, my body and my mind that I knew how to win. And So, I was just on a roll from that moment. Everything became easier. My just my energy was back. And I came second at the trials in both 102 hundred. And it was, you know, it was kind of interpreted as like, oh [00:46:00] yes. So, then you know, that the successes have now moved into their rightful place.And that was a bit, but I had, I was babysitting So, badly that I knew I was just like on the way up. So, it was really interesting. And So, you know, it all went So, beautifully. I won the a hundred, which I never expected to do, and that was just pure thrill and sort of just, oh, elation and surprise and all of the joy that comes with something So, unexpected, but the 200 was interesting because it was more.No, it was the rice that I was expected to win. So, on the other side of that, or once I'd won, I didn't have that same elation. It was always interested me. I seem to just be So, kind of like I'd done it. It was a sense of satisfaction because later on I learned that contentment and satisfaction, it's almost a neutral feeling.It's not something that we try to strive for in many ways. And So, I sort of was a bit surprised by that, but nevertheless, I've won my gold medals and later on, I would learn through mindfulness and compassion. Oh, right. That's contentment. And it's okay to just be in that [00:47:00] place. It just means the job well done.So, did you question yourself, not feeling more excited at winning? Oh, that was not, I mean, it was it, I was, I still remember being on the, you know, at the end and m and dad had jumping up and down and I was like, try, please skip that. I was like, nah, it's nothing there. It's more just, yeah. I did it. No, I did it after all those four years, I hung in and I got there and it was done.It was, it was still, I would say happy. And, and content, I think, I think she's right about in glide and I love this is we tend to discount neutral moments. We discount the neutral emotions and I often have people a lot Saturday. So, you excited. Cause there's lots of good things that you cited. I don't want to disappoint you, but that's not the word.It feels we're heading there, and it'll be what it'll be. But I've, I really have tried to knock off the extremes because I don't want this in my life. I want more this, about the externals. It, [00:48:00] it seems exhausting to live on a rollercoaster of extreme emotions. So, I do get what you're saying. I'm just surprised you had it So, young, a feeling of.Yes. Oh, I think, well, I was scared of it because it doesn't feel right. Does it? It should be. I should have been like, I wasn't a hundred, there was that. And yet it wasn't. So, he just was like, no, that's not there. So, just did and what it is. And then I felt the same way. I remember again, when I was pregnant with my Son.I felt like it was because I was 38. It had happened in the first month. My best friend had been given no time to live. And I was like, when you're waiting for lease, they get pregnant or, you know, try. And we thought it'd be months because I was So, old, not old but old for having a child. And and yeah, that feeling of, , when it actually happened.And I remember driving along South darling straight after, I'd gone to tell mom and dad, and it was this beautiful pink sky. It was sort of June. and it was Twilight. And I remember thinking, wow, how have I managed this? Like, I, I want to go to the Olympics. I got there. I wanted to write a book. I got there.I [00:49:00] wanted to be a sports reporter. I did that. I always actually didn't manage to be pregnant and have a baby, which has not been on my bucket list at all. You know? And, and there was that feeling again. And I mean, I must say I was a bit scared. Like, what if I don't want to do anything else I'm now that I don't have to fear it.And I had a similar feeling just Mother’s Day, you know, just gone past. I was actually by myself. My son was in Canberra. He's studying down there. My husband was with his mum She'd had an operation and I was just with my sister. We were up at Lennox head and my son, husband was only 30 minutes away, but I had this beautiful morning of, I work early and I thought, oh, I'll just go to the cafe and read this book that I was really enjoying.And I was sitting there in, you know, in the cafe. There's lots of young pair of parents with young kids and I was feeling So, like, my job is done. I've raised a beautiful boy. Yeah. Nope. Everyone keeps telling me, you know, how terrific he is. I think he is obviously, you know, his girlfriend's best friend said to me, I couldn't ask for a nicer guy for my gut, my best [00:50:00] friend.So, you know, you've done the right thing by the girls, which is really important, I think when you're raising boys. , and it was that feeling of, yeah, you can, I was not scared of it at all. It was just that really still feeling of job. Well done. You guys good on you? Yeah. So, I think that learning not to be scared of it, as you say, well, I think it's worth sharing the viewers now, why that's such a big deal in your life to get to that point, because glide, whilst it talks about the highs and the lows of the external world, I think the conversation is worth having with you now is there is a very different narrative going on within you during this time.And maybe I'm putting words in your mouth that I just get the sense that you've been wrestling with. You. All through that journey. So, you are not just competing in a race, you were competing with yourself with how you suppressed emotions with how you denied yourself, the painful thoughts that I can't even imagine how you go out from [00:51:00] the blocks planning to win when this isn't working for you.And for a while there, your mind did not work for your success for your ultimate supportive view. No, no. And I didn't know that until I know that you are sort of conscious of it, but I didn't know what to do with it. I knew once Rocky had changed my thinking, like I told journalists after I won the, those gold medals that., but I had trouble with my thinking and Rocky changed it. So, I knew that I also, knew before the Olympic final, which is, you know, I've spoken about it before, but sitting in that reading room, I heard the thought, I don't know how to do this. And I was, So, I was like, of course you do. And I'm wrestled, I thought myself on my own and kind of created, I mean, I guess you might call it a panic attack now.I don't know, but, and was able to steady myself and kind of get myself out there in a way in a way that was effective until I got into that, into the, onto the blocks. But yeah, So, I had this one, I called trouble with my thinking. And then, So, the book before glide was a teenage novel set [00:52:00] in the circus.I'd never written fantasy before, but I thought I'd have a go. And I just, again, took myself down into spirals of doubt and I knew all the time. I think it's one of the fortunate things I suppose in that I knew that it was internal. I knew it wasn't Something, there was nobody else to blame with somebody, something that I was doing.And So, I started, I signed up to a coaching course at first, a live coaching course because I thought, well, there's lots more modern techniques now that obviously what was happening back then, wasn't modern. And that was great, except that it was another goal setting force. And I didn't need to set another goal.I wanted to be content with the goals that I kicked if you like because I had to you know, as a, a, to go and do some coaching as well, in order to practice, you know, to get my cert four, I actually realized that I wasn't the only one who had that, what I called miss never enough inside my head.So, I had these two competing voices. If you like, I have this Smiths or I'll have a go at that. You know, like that seems interesting. I'd like to write a book or I'd like to be an interviewer. [00:53:00] And So, I've got her, she's always there. And then I had this miss never enough. And. And I had that, that, that first start that we described of the Dee Why ladies sort of encouragement, I didn't, I'd forgotten about that.Yeah. What I, what I, I thought that all my success had been a result of that. My coach sports psychology back then was. Mottos across the top of the Blackboard. And my favorite motto was when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I was introduced to it at 13, at 14, I was swimming for Australia and like, right.That's it, that's it. But as you know, as I've said, by that third week at training camp in Hawaii, I didn't know how to. Where's the motto that said I've been tough enough. And So, more often than not, I was driving myself into the pool into sort of exhaustion and getting sick. , and by the time I had Terry gaffer, Paul, as a coach later on in the lead up to those Commonwealth early Olympics and Commonwealth games, he would tell people that, you know, you got to be careful of it cause she'll drive herself to illness.And now we know that that never enough story. It's just called the language of scarcity. You [00:54:00] know, we all have it from the moment we wake up in the morning, didn't get enough sleep. Don't have enough time. Don't have enough money, don't have enough respect, don't have enough willpower, don't have enough, nobody, you know, fill in the blanks., and So, that's the language of scarcity and why we're doing that. We're just draining, you know, the parts of our brain of the world where we're draining the sort of the drive section of the brain, but we're just feeding them the stress hormones all the time. Cause. You know, your, your, your podcast is called perspective.Like the capacity to stand back and say, hold on a minute. There's another way of looking at it. This is a really a powerful skill. So, I did the course. And then through that coaching course, I was introduced to, I did a webinar. It was non-compulsory on something called mindfulness based stress reduction.Yeah and I still didn't get it at the end of the class. I was like, I didn't see why I have to sit still. I have to sit down and meditate. I don't get it. So, I suppose it's worth mentioning here. Up until then you had replaced X. You used exercise as a way not to be with [00:55:00] yourself. And I wonder how many people listening to this insert your choice of distraction here.So, you don't have to be yourself. And you also, mentioned in glide the study where, how long can a participant sit in a room alone? And they're told there's a buzzer there. They can press that will give themselves an electric shock. And some people didn't even last five minutes, they'd rather give themselves pain.Then sit quietly with their thoughts. Sorry. An incredible university of Virginia. I think it was always blows me away. And the people, most people was, majority of people would rather. Give themselves the stimulus of pain, the distraction from just being still with their thoughts. And there's the other one too.So, that, that I thought the other one that was interesting was I think it was the Harvard study. It was around 2010 now, So, it's quite old, but it was you know, many, many people with, uh, an app on their phone. So, every So, often would pop up and say are you, is your mind on task or is it [00:56:00] are you distracted?And they were, I think it was 48% of the time we were distracted, and the distraction was not helping us be happier. Because, yes, you might be thinking about that next holiday Inn. I don't know, Somewhere beyond our shores one, you know, in one day. , but then there may be all, well, it's not fair. Why I'd love to go and maybe some fears about the coronavirus or whatever it happens to be, you know, imagination kicks in.So, yeah, So, that's, So, I wrote down the name, John Kabat-Zinn and, , and suddenly, , Uh, So, I went to that's right after the website, I, a webinar, I went to audible and I looked up all the books a bit, maybe this John Kabat-Zinn has a book. And of course, he was the grandfather of mindfulness. So, he had millions of books that lots of them were, were abridged.So, I chose the only unabridged book and started listening to it. When I went walking the next morning, he had vintages the adventures of mine finished. It's no longer available on audible by the way. Cause I wanted to read it on audible before [00:57:00] our chat. Okay. I think, yeah, I think it's on sounds true now.Cause then I went to find him. Yeah. Now you tell me, well, it was interesting cause I went looking for it. Eventually. I actually emailed Don Kevin's in LA called the center for mindfulness to get his approval. So, it was tricky to find and, they were surprised actually. I think that it was on audible at the time.Anyway, the story was that. I didn't go walking the next morning, chapter three starts with a basic breath meditation. I'm supposed to be sitting down, I'm walking saying, thanks So, much, but I can, I can just feel my breath and walk. And, and he says, okay, So, we're going to feel the breath. And so, you know where I'm feeling the breath and he said, now you might be thinking this isn't too bad.You know, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling my breath. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's what I'm thinking. And he said, well, that's great, except that's a thought, and we're not trying to think. We're just trying to feel the breath. So, let's just let go of the thought and come back to the simple feeling of the breath.And I was like, what did he say? I can [00:58:00] let go of the thought by coming back to the breath. And I, I mean, I was on the corner of Oxford street and Moorpark road up the top. I almost did circles. Like, why didn't Somebody tell you this? 30 years ago, when I was sitting in the ready room before the Olympic final, that I could let go of a thought, by coming back to the feeling of the breath, it's hard for sorry for the mind to do that, but it is possible.It is tough to do, but it's hard. It would have been hard for you in that you trained yourself to disconnect from your body. Your body was just a weapon or a tool to get you down the pool. I didn't read up. I think our veggie greatly, you'd never learnt or experienced being in your body. You were here knowing what you had to do, inverted commerce, what you felt you had to do, but at no time had you taught yourself or had the experience of, of being exposed to this idea, all of me is here.Not just the bit. That's got to think my way through this panic. And I bet I hope I don't [00:59:00] let it. That is an all of you. This just became a tool. I think my feeling, as I read at least was everything below here was simply a weapon or a tool to get the job done. The next job, the next job, the next job, even exercise was treated that way.And So, to just have that ability, did you do it successfully in that first time? I can't imagine you did that. You actually sat and felt your body. It would have been an alien surreal experience to even know that was a, that was a conversation you could have with yourself. , certainly I think that one of the, definitely privileged to this, although I, I think one of the things that I found interesting about practicing mindfulness is that I could.I did not know that I could learn to regulate an emotion and exactly the way that I had regulated myself through, through a race. So, I trained my body to remain a quant is or to maintain equanimity. And when I, you know, it was screaming with pain or my thoughts were like, I don't want to, you know, I, I [01:00:00] want to give up on, not that I ever thought about, but you know, toward the end of a race, when it's really, tough, I trained myself to stay, keep stroke long, keep your breath long.You know, you're checking, checking, checking, checking time. And I didn't know that I could do that with an emotion. The moment that I was feeling anxious, as you say the trouble with my thinking, I didn't have trouble with my thinking. What I have is what we all have is a habitual way of thinking that gets us.We learned when we were little, but this protected us somehow the way that we behaved, protected us and kept us loved, or kept us in contact with those that we needed. And what I didn't realize was that. It was just a habit to actually stop myself from feeling as you say, but if we can drop into the body, when the going gets tough, the tough get going, I've now reframed, you know, in terms of when the going gets tough, the tough drop into the body and feel what they're feeling, you know, and it comes to an emotion, right?And So, if I'm feeling really worked up, then it's had there's something going on in the body. So, can I drop into the body and just feel what's going on? So, [01:01:00] you're absolutely right. I had no connection. It wasn't the breath meditation that I had such trouble with. But when the body scan, he had a, h
88 minutes | May 12, 2021
Dr Schwartz - You're Greater Than The Sum Of Your Parts | #Perspectives Podcast
[00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to today’s episode of Perspectives I am so thrilled. I think I said every time, but I'm particularly thrilled about today's guest. We are going to be meeting Dr. Richard Schwartz who is the, he’s on the faculty of the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard medical school. He was associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Illinois at Chicago is Institute for Juvenile Research.[00:00:29] And later at the Family Institute at Northwestern university, Richard began his career as a systemic family therapist and academic. So his background is definitely in family therapy. He's very familiar with attachment theory. Now he has developed this methodology, this beautiful body of work it's grounded in systems theory, and he's developed a therapeutic technique called internal family systems therapy or IFS also known [00:01:00] as parts therapy.[00:01:01] And he developed this and he shares at the beginning of our conversation, how it came about. He was working with clients who claim to recognize they had several components or sub personalities or parts within themselves, which is separate from having multiple personalities. It isn't that. So he began to focus on these relationships amongst the parts within his clients.[00:01:23] And he began to notice that there was systemic patterns in the way they were organized in every client. He observed that his client's parts were often rebellious or troublesome or overly controlling. And when they weren't attended to they could get a little out of control. So you've, you've ever had part of you that perhaps flares up a little bit too much, or part of you that's over controlling what needs you've got the perfectionist streak in you, or you're a little bit too anxious for the occasion or you find yourself particularly reactive.[00:01:56] Well, this is really for you because what Schwartz [00:02:00] observed is that if we paid attention to our internal narrative and we really tapped into the truth of us, there was an essence of us, a truth or a truest self-amongst all the anxiety of the controlling or the playing out or the anger or whatever it was.[00:02:18] And there was a beautiful self within, and that if we can have our paths feel safe and when they're allowed to relax and when the clients are allowed to experience their truest self and begin to realize they can trust themselves. And love themselves and feel compassion for themselves, that whole beautiful journey to self-compassion.[00:02:38] Then what can happen spontaneously is the qualities of confidence and openness, compassion, love, clarity, calm, courage, begin to show up and it's in all of us. No, one's the exceptions. So from this beginning of working with clients in these beautiful discoveries, internal family systems or IFS came about in [00:03:00] the eighties, I love it because it's non pathologizing.[00:03:03] It's really aligned with coaching. It is based on truth. It's based on honesty, encouragement and acceptance of all of us and true compassionate at the deepest level is no judgment. There's no rejection, there's no pathologizing any of it. And that through this journey of acceptance and compassion and embracing us with a technique and in the podcast, Dick works with me as a client and you will see the technique play out how we can be in touch with our truest selves, that centred itself that's in all of us and reach out to a part of us.[00:03:36] That's perhaps felt not as loved. We can reach out to it with love. And you'll see in that it's real, it's not a role-play as I do that. And they're beautiful consequence of that when that part realizes that it is loved and accepted and hasn't been rejected it's now evidence-based IFS is evidence-based has become widely used as a form of psychotherapy.[00:03:58] You’ll hear in the podcast how [00:04:00] it's going to be rolled to coaches, which are things really exciting. He's published a ton of books. One of the books that I've devoured, and you'll hear on the podcast, I've read this a number of times is Internal Family Systems therapy by Schwartz Swayze. The Mosaic Mind I must say is a little bit more for the therapist.[00:04:16] So it wasn't really applicable to me as much Internal Family Systems therapy by Schwartz. He's also got a beautiful audible that I do parts of it most days called Greater than the Sum of our Parts and he's done other works as well. And I he's also got courses available online at the moment. The beautiful thing about this is his energy.[00:04:37] You're going to. I'm sure feel as I did with him, he's got a really great energy. A beautiful energy is a very open soul, very accessible to chat with about it. And we have quite a long conversation about IFS we unpack what it is, what the parts are and their different functions within us, what our centered selfies and how important it is to recognize is in all of us, [00:05:00] we self is about how we can bring it into our daily practice.[00:05:03] And then what we do is we look at how we can bring it alive in our coaching practices as well. If you're a coach, I believe it's fabulous for leaders, for parents, for anyone who wants to relate at a different level. And I believe its truest gift is it's compassionate pathway to ourself. And so here he is the man himself, Dr.[00:05:23] Richard Swartz. It's so great to have you with us today, Dick, I know there is going to be many people around the world interested to hear this conversation. I know there's also a lot of coaches who are going to be a thousands of coaches will be listening to this, curious about how we can incorporate what you've developed into coaching.[00:05:40] Could you start with sharing a little bit about yourself and how you came to be at this point for Sharon? Thank you for inviting me. I'm, I'm honored by how supportive you are of IFS and yeah, it's it's quite a story goes back about 40 years. I I [00:06:00] just graduated from a PhD program in marital and family therapy and I was one of those obnoxious.[00:06:08] Family therapist that thought we found the Holy grail and wanted to prove that. And so in my effort to prove it, I did an outcome study with a eating disorder called bulimia. That was sort of new on the scene back then and found that we could reorganize the families just the way the book said to do it.[00:06:30] And still many of my clients didn't realize they've been cured and they just kept going. So I got frustrated and started asking what's going on? Why are you still bingeing and purging? And they started to teach this to me and they would talk to this language of parts. And they would say some version of when something bad happens in my life.[00:06:54] It triggers this critic. Who's now calling me all kinds of brutal names [00:07:00] and the critic brings up this part that feels totally young and empty and alone and worthless. And that feeling is so dreadful that almost to the, the rescue comes the binge to take me away. But the act of the binge brings the critic back.[00:07:16] Who's now calling me a pig on top of the other names. And that, of course it brings back that young, empty, worthless feeling. And so the bit the binge has to come back and to me as a family therapist, this sounded familiar. It sounded like an inner system that interacted actively inside of my clients, but it also sounded scary at first.[00:07:39] Cause I thought, boy, maybe these, these young women are sicker than I thought, you know, maybe they're more like multiple personality disorder until I started listening inside myself and then I've got them too. And some of mine are as extreme as there is particularly the critic. And I have [00:08:00] my own binges I did[00:08:02] so. with that I started to just explore. And I was lucky in that I hadn't studied intra-psychic process in other theories so that I had to just be curious and just keep letting my clients teach me. And one of the things that was a hard thing for me to learn at first was that these parts, aren't what they seemed[00:08:28] and that actually there aren't any bad ones, so that it took a while, because at first I was thinking they were, the critic was an internalized parental voice and the bench was an out of control impulse. And when you think of it, that way, it's limited how you can have your client relate to that either you try to get them to stand up to the bench or control on, stand up to the critic or control the binge.[00:08:56] And as I was doing that, I encourage clients to do that. [00:09:00] They would get worse. But I didn't know what else to do. So I'd say stand up stronger control more until the first client that I was aware of that had a sex abuse history and cut herself on her wrist and insisted on showing me the open wounds, every session.[00:09:18] And I decided we weren't going to let her out of my office until that cutting part had agreed not to do it to her that week. And so after a couple of hours of badgering, the part it finally said it wouldn't and I opened the door to the next session. And now she's got a big gash on the side of her face.[00:09:37] And I gasped at that and just spontaneously spit out. I give up, I can't beat you with this. And the part said, you know, I don't really want to beat you. And that was the turning point in the history of this work, because I changed out of that controlling place to just curious, [00:10:00] why do you do this to her?[00:10:02] And the part talked about how, when he, she was being sexually abused, it needed to get her out of her body and it needed to contain the rage that would get her more abuse. And so I shifted with that now. I'm not just curious, but I have an abiding respect and appreciation for the heroic role as part of played in her life.[00:10:26] And as I got to know it more though, it sounded like it was still living back in that time. Like it, it didn't realize she had grown up and wasn't in that kind of danger anymore. So with all of that, I started to really change my view of these parts. And now 40 years later I can safely say that there aren't any bad ones.[00:10:49] Like I said, that that's the nature of the mind to have them. We all have them. They will be called thinking, is them communicating most of the time? [00:11:00] And it's, we're born with them. They they're valuable assets to us as we develop in life and trauma and well cortical attachment injuries, which would be bad parenting basically forced them out of their naturally valuable States into roles that can be destructive and also freeze them in time and give them what I call burdens, which the definition which are extreme beliefs and emotions that came into your system from some kind of a trauma and attached to these parts, like the COVID virus almost and drive the way they operate afterwards.[00:11:48] So to heal them. We learned that you have to get them out of where they're stuck in the past and you witnessed what happened to them. And then. Help them unburden release these extreme [00:12:00] beliefs and emotions, and then almost magically though transform immediately when that happens. So anyway, that's a long answer that dig.[00:12:08] Yeah. That's a great answer. I just want, I was curious because I have read the story of how you began. I'm curious. I think you may have addressed in one of your books. What was it like for you back then? 40 years ago, discovering Internal Family Systems when your specialty had been external, as we see family therapy, what were your colleagues saying?[00:12:29] What was, what was the lay of the land for you as you began talking about multiple voices in people's heads? I'm trying to imagine it's the seventies. Yeah, well, it was early eighties, early eighties. My apologies. What was the narrative going on around you with your colleagues, as you seem to have made this discovery of an internal world?[00:12:55] You know, I was attacked. Isn't probably the best word, but I, I got a lot of criticism [00:13:00] from both sides. My family therapy colleagues felt like I was betraying the cause because family therapy, a pendulum swing away from psychoanalysis or psycho traditional psychotherapy, where you spent a lot of time focused on the individual and their intra-psychic process in family therapy said, no, we don't need to do that.[00:13:23] We can change everything by just changing these external relationships. So a lot of my, and I, you know, I was building in that field. I coauthored the basic textbook. That was the most popular textbook by then. So a lot of my colleagues saw me as a traitor and were pretty vocal about it. And then I developed it in a department of psychiatry at the university of Illinois at Chicago.[00:13:54] And it was a very psychoanalytic department. And the, [00:14:00] one of the big luminaries in that department took me to task claiming that I, I was fragmenting people by having them focus on these things and that I was dangerous basically, and tried to get me fired. So, so yeah, it was a rough ride back then. And, you know, in retrospect to get through all of that, I had to rely on parts of me that could be arrogant and didn't care what people thought and just said, I don't, you know, and, and we're very protective of other very vulnerable parts of me that felt really worthless.[00:14:41] And we're. You know, mortified that people would be judging me that way. Yeah. And so it wouldn't have been papers produced. There wouldn't have been a team of colleagues that you could talk with about this, your entire narrative was with your clients, and then there's literally [00:15:00] your there's known unknowns.[00:15:01] And then there's all the unknown unknowns and you were dealing with nearly all unknown unknowns. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty lonely for quite a while. And then I started getting the courage to talk about it more. I started to draw students who were very interested and so we, we had a little kind of study group where we'd compare notes, every session.[00:15:23] And, and some of them actually contributed quite a lot in the early stages of this, a woman named Mitchy Rose in particular. And, and so that really helped when I felt like. I had a kind of support. Yeah. Good. I'm pleased I can't I'm imagining back then. If the feedback you're getting is from clients saying one thing and your colleagues is saying another, the internal conflict for you must have been the greatest because external acceptance from your colleagues when you're in the role you're in, is what you'd always [00:16:00] measured your progress by until then.[00:16:01] And now there, none of that existed, none of what you'd counted on, you could rely on anymore. Yeah. You know, I, I come from a very scientific family. My father was a high powered medical researcher, physician, and he always talked about follow the data, even if it takes you way outside your paradigm. And if, if you're consistently getting this data, even if it's some totally controversial just stay with it.[00:16:35] And that was a huge lesson for me. And he, he was quite supportive even though it all sounded kind of bizarre to him too. Yeah. Good. So can you talk us through what I F S is internal family systems? Can you give us a snapshot in your own words? So those who are unfamiliar can have a deeper sense of what it is.[00:16:58] Yeah. So [00:17:00] it's been a form of psychotherapy, but it's also becoming more and more a kind of life practice. And we are trying to bring it to other groups like yours and it Involves some basic assumptions about people that are different than the most common assumptions about human nature. One of which is that it's, it's the natural state of the mind to be multiple and to have what we call parts and that each of these parts are individual personalities that have a full range of emotion and belief and thought and, and interact inside in a system.[00:17:42] And that that system is can be studied and, and transformed and that these parts, aren't what they seem, that they're all valuable and forced into extreme roles. And also that [00:18:00] just beneath the surface of these parts that I've talked about is what I'm going to call itself, which is a kind of essence.[00:18:09] That is in everybody can't be damaged and knows how to heal. It knows how to heal these parts once you access that stuff and knows how to heal external relationships also. And, and so a lot of the IFS has become helping people access that essence. And in that state begin to relate to these parts and to relate to their intimate partners or relate to their, the people that work for them or that they work with.[00:18:44] Or so to, to encourage what we call self-leadership both internally and externally. And I stumbled on ways to access that very quickly. In most cases, Hmm, the way I look at IFS [00:19:00] is it's the easiest way I've found to help me with my inner reactivity. That's that's what IFS has given me. It's the fastest way and the easiest way I've found to help me process my reactivity might, if you want to call it triggers, I don't like that word, but my inner activity.[00:19:20] So I don't play it out on the person I'm with, or I don't play it out on what I think is the source of my upset instead. The gift for me is if I think the source of the upset is someone else to me, IFS tells me that is a gift for you now to have the opportunity to look within. And I have fish hoses, how to look with them because there are plenty of modalities, Dick that say go within, but they don't tell you how it's like meditate or sit with it or let's see what counts.[00:19:50] That's not helpful. And as someone who's been doing this for a while, it's just doesn't help me. So I, this is showing me the steps of, okay, that I, that [00:20:00] can't be the source, but that is a lesson. That gives me the opportunity to go within and we'll walk through the process of that hopefully, and then I can then deal with my reactivity instead of thinking they have to change.[00:20:12] It's a gift and an opportunity for me to grow in that area, beautifully said Sharon. And in that way, you're using the other person as what we call a tormentor tormenting, you, they're mentoring, you tormentor with a hyphen between the tor and the mentor. They're messaging you about what you need to heal.[00:20:34] And, and also in our crazy language, you're following the trailheads that that person has put in your face, which are emotions and thoughts and impulses that if you focus on it, We'll take you to a part that needs your attention, that needs your health stuff. Yeah. So just slow it down there. [00:21:00] So the way to my understanding is the way to know that a trail head, a trail head is a thought emotion of physical movement that you intended or didn't intend.[00:21:11] It could be a sensation. It could be a visualization. It could be a, just a, a thought feeling. Any of that are opportunities or what IFS would call a Trailhead to a part. And there's nothing bad about it. That's the thing. It's not that we're, there's no bad parts in all the years you've been doing this.[00:21:31] There's not a, you've never come across a part that wasn't lovable ultimately, and we couldn't feel love for that's. Right. And I've worked with people who, you know, whose parks had made them do heinous things. I spent seven years working at an agency for. Sex offenders. And we, we do this work in prisons now with people that have murdered people.[00:21:54] And even those parts, when you have the person find it and focused [00:22:00] on it, and instead of fearing it or hating it, curious that those parts will tell their secret histories of how they were forced into the roles they're in and how they carry the burden of their perpetrator’s energy. That drives them to want to perpetrate[00:22:16] right. And so on. And so on. What was your, I don't know if this is putting it on the spot, but what was the recipient recidivism rate after working with IFS on people who'd done those crimes? Well, we didn't do real good outcome studies with it. You know, anecdotally the people that I know of it really well, but we don't have a clear outcome study.[00:22:43] So I'm loathe to say more than that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So someone listening, because I'm familiar with it. I don't want to make too many assumptions about what people know. Yeah. So we'll just slow down there. So a part is a Trailhead is a thought, a feeling, [00:23:00] a sensation, it's a visualization, it's a voluntary movement or ambulatory movement, which is an indicator.[00:23:05] We could meet a pad. And in IFS we want to meet that part can you walk us through the types of parts there are? Cause I, I, I know there are types of parts and once people get familiar with the world that we're about to build for them, it's really fun to play in that world. It's joyful to know how to go inside and translate what we're saying into activities.[00:23:31] So can you walk us through, let's just start with the basics, the types of parts. Yeah. Well, again, I'm a systems thinker, family therapists. So as my clients where we're describing this landscape to me, I started to look for distinctions and the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between.[00:23:54] There was some parts who were quite young and sensitive and [00:24:00] because they were sensitive inner children, the traumas affected them the most. And so they would wind up carrying, you know, it would be like an inner little girl inside of you before she got hurt. You loved her. It was, she gives you all this delight in the world and the desire to get close to people and playfulness and creativity.[00:24:25] But after she gets hurt, now she carries the burden of emotional pain or terror or shame or something like that. And now you don't want anything to do with her because she can make you feel as bad as you felt during the trauma. And she's still stuck back there. And so you consciously or not. Lock her up inside in a way we call exiling and try to just move on, just move on.[00:24:58] I know [00:25:00] like the US and Australia is kind of just move on culture, like rugged individualists. And so you think you're just moving on from the memories and the emotions from the trauma, not knowing you're locking up your most precious qualities and in doing that, so these, we call them exiles. And when you get a lot of exiles, you feel much more delicate, and the world becomes much more dangerous because all kinds of things could trigger those parts.[00:25:35] And when they get triggered, it's like flames of emotion are going to totally consume you and overwhelm you and make it that you can't function sometimes. And so then a lot of other parts I recruited. Into becoming these protectors to try and contain those exiles and protect them from the world. And some of them do that by trying to [00:26:00] manage your life so that the exiles don't get triggered.[00:26:03] They, they manage your relationships so that you don't let anybody get too close, or you don't let people, you depend on get to distance or they manage your appearance so that you don't get rejected and they manage your performance. So you did a lot of accolades to counter the worthlessness that the exiles feel.[00:26:25] So we call them managers, it's one class of protector. And then despite the best efforts of these managers, you still get that the world still has a way of breaking through those defenses. And an exile comes bursting out and that's a big emergency. So there's another set of parts, protectors, whose job it is to deal with that emergency right now.[00:26:51] Like I've got to get away from this feeling or it's going to kill me. And so they are the ones that do the bingeing, [00:27:00] the impulsive reactive, like the reactive part of you, you were talking about and they don't care about the collateral damage to your relationships of your body. They just got to get you away and do it immediately.[00:27:15] And so that's the other class of protector. So that's a pretty simple map. And again, I want to reiterate that these aren't descriptions of the actual parts it's descriptions of the roles they're forced into, and once released from these roles, they often do something entirely different. Sometimes quite the opposite of the role there.[00:27:36] It's always valuable. But, so that is the little map managers, firefighters, both of whom are protetors trying to protect and contain these exiles. So can we go through an example with someone who might be experiencing anxiety? Can we create a construct of a person? So our viewers can get a sense [00:28:00] of what an example of that could be.[00:28:02] And I'm happy to share my example. If you can share an example of those three inactions,[00:28:07] we could, we could also role play it if you wanted, or could actually work with your anxiety, if you have any[00:28:13] yeah. Well, let's make it real. And I did think about something that, and I very carefully didn't do any work on it. I did not do any ifs and yes, I'm more than happy to demonstrate it because I have an inkling. I have a Trailhead. Which is a thought feeling that I'm happy to[00:28:30] let's do it. So what's the thought feeling a feeling here in my gut, sometimes high in my gut and sometimes low of righteousness or needing to be right. Needing to correct and make it right. And there's a tension around it. Dick like there's a tension, like I want to, this has gotta be right. Yeah. And it's got to happen right away, right?[00:28:59] [00:29:00] Yes. There's an urgency to it as well. Yes. There is an urgency. So as you notice all that in your gut, Sharon, how do you feel toward that part of it?[00:29:13] I don't feel anything towards it just yet. Hang on.[00:29:18] It just is what other ones do you, it just is, you don't have an attitude about it. You don't want to get rid of it or you, you just, just noticing. No, I want to understand it. I want to understand it. It just is. And I would love to understand it. I certainly don't feel anything negative towards it at all.[00:29:37] It's part of me. Right. So focus on it again, down there and let it know. You're curious about it and just ask what it wants you to know about itself and wait for the answer. Don't think of the answer. Just wait for an answer to come from [00:30:00] that place.[00:30:01] I'm here. I want to be heard. Okay. Are you open to hearing it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let it know. You're ready and just see what it wants you to hear.[00:30:19] It's hard. I work hard is a lot to think about part works hard. Yeah. I'm I'm just hearing what it's saying. I work hard is a lot to think about and, huh,[00:30:37] it's a tough job. Someone's got to do it.[00:30:40] And Sharon ask it, what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this love job.[00:30:46] Get judged.[00:30:48] Yeah. So you'd make a mistake and get judged or how would you get judged[00:30:54]is it okay? That I take a moment. Cause I'm really, it takes a while for this to happen for me. [00:31:00] Yeah. I'm just going to go inside and be. Sure whenever you need,[00:31:07] there's a sense of it would get criticized if it didn't get it right. It wasn't a sentence. It was a feeling. Does this match? Yeah, it does make sense. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Let it know that that makes sense to you. You can understand that. And how are you feeling toward it now? I feel really compassionate.[00:31:32] I'm giving it a big hug. We'll let it know that. Yeah. Perfect. How's it. How's it reacts to melting, melting into me. That's great. It's like[00:31:50] call the weight just, yeah. Yeah, that's great. [00:32:00] Yeah. Maybe ask it how old it thinks you are[00:32:04]10.[00:32:05] Yeah, so maybe when you were 10, it needed to worry like this, but let it know how old you really are. You don't have to tell me[00:32:15] I’m going to fudge it a little bit, but I get what you're saying. Yep.[00:32:19] And see how it reads. Okay. See how it reacts to the news that you're not telling anymore.[00:32:25] It’s in. Awe just, wow. And it's looking up like, wow, it's amazing. You're so old.[00:32:35] Yeah, but let it know. Well, it's finding it funny that I'm that old,[00:32:45] but let it know that since you're not 10, you can do a lot more anticipating and, and controlling the world than you could bear. So you can rely on you [00:33:00] a little more than it thought it could and just see how it reacts to that idea. It's just hugging me.[00:33:07] It’s like the easiest hug. Like I've done some parts work before, but this one's just like, of course you're here. That's right. Yeah. Ask what it would need from you going forward to really trust it. Didn't have to work so hard[00:33:28]to know that I love it.[00:33:31] That that's the strongest message I've got from wow.[00:33:37] To know. I love you. Yeah. Yeah. So, Sharon, are you, are you good with that? Can you reassure that? Yes. Yes I am. So tell the part, you're going to do that for it.[00:33:54] Yep. I'm doing it right now. [00:34:00] Fantastic.[00:34:01] It’s so good.[00:34:03] Just love this love and playfulness and excitement. I can't even explain it, but there's excitement and there's freedom and there is[00:34:20] playfulness like[00:34:22] almost to show off playfulness. Wow.[00:34:25] Wow. I'm just telling you it. It's amazing and loved. That's great. So does that feel complete for now?[00:34:36] Feels awesome. Dick. I don't know how to recognize complete, but it feels amazing and so close. There's no distance now between us. There's this we're a team. That's great.[00:34:57]and then tell the part [00:35:00] just that you're going to follow up on it every day. You're going to remind it that you love it at least for a month. Yeah, yeah,[00:35:11] yeah. And then when you're ready, come on. Back outside.[00:35:14] It’s just fantastic. Yeah. It was a great example and[00:35:23]I feel amazing.[00:35:25]Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. It's a great demonstration of the work I'm still there a little bit. Just enjoying. I don't want to drag you away. Yeah. I just feel really tingley oh my God. My fingers feel electric. That's what we call self energy.[00:35:54] When you fall apart like that, it opens the channels for this energy to flow through your body. [00:36:00] I read about it and I was feeling kind of ripped off. Cause it never happened for me when I've done my parts work be for, I guess I feel a little tingley and it's all electric. It's like yeah. That when you touch static, it was all static all down my hands.[00:36:24] Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So that'll be more accessible to you now. Cause that that little worry part was blocking it. Okay. I just need to have people know who are watching this. This is real right? This is very extraordinary feeling. It's still there. It's a very healing energy. And that's part of how, you know, when yourself is in your body, because you'll start to feel [00:37:00] more of that.[00:37:02] So everything feels like it's static and electric.[00:37:06]I know you know this, but this is I'm having quite the trip right now.[00:37:11] Wow. That is extraordinary. Thank you. Thank you. It's a very happy, happy to do it with you. Oh, wow. Okay. Coming back. And that just stays. I just get to have this. Yeah, you gotta keep taking care of that little, little part. And there might be other parts that'll block it at different points for different reasons.[00:37:42] Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's just there. It's just in you and around you. It's so good. If you're not feeling it, then you just track down the part that's blocking. Okay. It's like the best [00:38:00] investigation you can ever do for yourself on yourself. That's how I look at it. That's right. Wow. It's very powerful data.[00:38:07] That is, that feels extraordinary. Yeah. As I, you know, as I go through my day I'm noticing how much of that I'm feeling and if it cannot feel much, I'll just find like there are my, you know, usual suspects in my forehead and on my shoulders and I'll notice them and I'll just remind them they could relax.[00:38:30] And then I just feel it moving into my body. Yes. Yes. I've started doing that with a couple of parts. I visit them every day and have been for a month and we're getting a really well, but this level of charge, this is new. Hmm. Wow. Okay. Next question.[00:38:51] I feel a little high. Is that something that's been said to you before? Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:00] Especially when you, when you helped a key part, because the part is feeling so great. You're just feeling the delight of this little, this little one. Okay. Let's call it a delight and not high, but I'm feeling a little high.[00:39:19] Okay. Okay. So one of the things I'm going to have a go now at where I wanted to hit in this conversation. Thank you so much for that. That's. Wow. Wonderful. I'm going to have that old day with me. That's just tremendous. And I will visit every day. So I heard that's a great example for people who are watching or listening on how powerful and wonderful this is to me, it's joyful work dig.[00:39:44] When I go in and follow the trail head and find the part and what I love, and I hope that's demonstrated is it would be so easy on the surface to judge that part oh my God, you need to knock it off. And why am I always so blank? And [00:40:00] I wish I wasn't and Oh God, I've done it again. And instead, if we now know how to embrace it and get to know it and find out its positive intention, we realize all along, it was on a team, but it was doing it at the age at which it learnt how to protect us.[00:40:19] That's exactly right. Very well said Sharon and I was kind of surprised when I asked you how you feel toward it. That you didn't say something like that. I'm annoyed by it. I wish it would go away because most people do. That's the first thing most people say they do. I've been doing a bit of work in ifs for a while.[00:40:38] I'll, I'll give you the heads up. IFS I think even before I knew I Fs, I realized I've got to love all of me. And one of the things they teach in coaching is we to reject any emotional or aspect of ourselves is to reject ourselves. And the past to self love is to accept all of us, even the bits that we don't understand or [00:41:00] relate with.[00:41:01] That's partly why I'm so excited to bring this to coaching and why I'm so excited to talk to you because I think in some ways more than psychotherapy ifs is a really good match for the philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to that. Cause I'll share with you soon. How I am bringing. Ifs or aspects of it for nonclinical populations to coaching, because there are aspects of it I've already pulled IFS we starting to put into the curriculum and I'd love to chat with you about it.[00:41:31] So we've got exiles who see the world is dangerous possibly, and they're pro probably more delicate than we have the managers or protectors who have no tolerance for fear or shamefulness or emotional pain. And they'll do anything to hide the exile it's almost like they're a guardian is the way I picture them.[00:41:51] That's right. Yeah. There's a lot of common manager roles. So there is, there are managers that keep you in your head all the [00:42:00] time and don't let you feel your body and keep you an intellectual. And then there are managers, particularly for women who take care of everybody. So, and never let you take care of yourself.[00:42:13] And there are managers who are scan for danger all the time. Are a little hypervigilant and so on and so on. And you know, there's a lot of comp and again, they're just the roles. These like yours was just forced into, but what they should, and then we have and then we have a firefighter above that whose role is if the exile breaks out, they're going to come in and they're going to suppress it.[00:42:42] And they don't care who they hurt, how they lash out collateral damage means nothing to them. That's right. Yeah. Which means there's a built-in polarization between managers and firefighters, because managers are [00:43:00] all about keeping you in control and pleasing everybody and firefighters do the opposite most of the time.[00:43:07] Not always. And so that's what I was saying earlier with the bulemic who the binge part was her firefighter. And then the manager was attacking her for letting the binge take over like that because it would, you know, make her heavy and so on. And so most of us have that kind of battle going on inside between managers and firefighters.[00:43:34] And that battle becomes self-perpetuating because the more shame these inner critics, which is another common manager role give you the more they shame you, the more that goes right to the heart of these little exiles who feel even worse now. So that makes the job of the firefighter even more important.[00:43:57] And then the, so you're in that vicious [00:44:00] cycle. So I'm picturing somebody who has say they can't control the temper for example, if I was to put that in IFS narrative, I possibly would sense. See what this gives me, Dick, this is another great gift of it. You'll never see anybody else the same way again, because if you see someone angry, you know, you're probably seeing a firefighter, which means their exile is feeling unsafe and the protector didn't do the job.[00:44:28] So there's a lot more compassion now with interactions instead of just judging it or blaming it or rejecting it, you can observe it from a compassionate detachment. Bingo. Yeah. That's beautiful that you're really getting it. I'm very impressed how deeply you've got the model. Cause that's right. It's almost like you have x-ray vision in the sense that you see past the, your opponent's protectors to the vulnerability and the pain and the terror and the shame that drive those [00:45:00] protectors.[00:45:01] And you can have compassion, which doesn't mean you don't, you don't stand up to that person, but you can stand up to that person. From Self we haven't talked about this yet, but we're getting to self definitely. Okay. So the, as I was seeing this in everybody, this was like the same person would pop out when parts would open space.[00:45:25] I started to catalog the qualities that would, would come out in that person. And that would be things like calm and curiosity and confidence, compassion. And as you're getting the, I'll begin with the letter C courage, clarity creativity and connectedness, and three of those confidence, clarity and courage means that self can be very forceful and clear and can take a stand.[00:45:58] But with compassion [00:46:00] with, with also with compassion. And that's, you know, when I work with leaders, I'm working with lots of social activists now. And many of them have these very angry, judgmental parts that they do their activism from, that motivates them. And we're getting those parts to relax similarly to how we had your anxiety part to relax and trust their self to do their activism.[00:46:27] And when they do that, they're just much more effective activists. So could we go so far as to say some activists are activists, because they don't know how to manage their internal journey? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of activists got hurt somehow or had a trauma and had a part say, I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to other people.[00:46:54] Yes, that's driven them, which is great. You know, it's, [00:47:00] it's, it's great that it's got them where they can do this, but it also polarizes. Well, the problem with it is activism. When it's taken to the extreme, in the terms that IFS is, it's a firefighter who will shame someone else cause they don't care about clinical collateral damage.[00:47:18] So they will shame. They will tear down. They will try to destroy someone metaphorically because they are coming from a place where they haven't got in touch with the part that needs the healing or they getting a keep using the world as a landscape to resolve, which only can be resolved through this internal journey.[00:47:41] That's right. Yeah. That's right. So yeah. So I'm helping them regain the trust of those protectors, helping the self. Get trusted again by the protector to lead just to the way yours did. Yeah. And then we're also which [00:48:00] we didn't do, but we're also going to what the protector protects and healing and that isn't necessarily the domain of coaches.[00:48:09] Exactly. Yeah. I'll talk to you about that in a moment. We'll talk about true self now, and then I'd love to chat with you about how coaching and coaches can integrate IFS because I do see some very strong parallels that are beautiful. So the, our Self I call it our true self in our trainings. You call it the self with a capital S can you walk us through, can you introduce us to this phenomenal, remarkable truth that we all have a Self it's?[00:48:41] Fantastic. Yeah. I just stumbled into it because my family therapy background. I was trying to get clients to have a different kind of conversation with these parts. As I was learning about the parts from my class, once I got hip to the fact [00:49:00] that they're not what they seem and that they deserve to be listened to, I was trying to get my client to get curious and interact and have a dialogue much the same as you got as you did with your parts just now.[00:49:14] And I was finding that as we were saying earlier, maybe let's say I'm having one of these bulimic kids have tried to talk to her critic and it's going okay, because she's staying curious, but suddenly she's angry at the critic. And then the critic gets defensive and escalates and. It reminded me of family sessions, where I'm working with a teenage girl and her critical mother.[00:49:42] And as I'm having them try to get along better, she suddenly the girls gets angry at the mother and you looked around the room and you see the father is cuing her, that he disagrees with the mother too, and she's fighting his battle for him. And so we [00:50:00] taught his family therapists to get him out of her line of vision, get them to step back in the room and create a better boundary around the mother and the daughter.[00:50:09] And when you do that, the girl settles down and they do have a decent conversation. I thought maybe the same thing's happening in this inner system is I'm trying to have my client talk to her critic, a part who hates it has come in and is doing the talking. So I started asking clients, can you find the one who just jumped in and is so angry at the critic?[00:50:31] And could you get it to step back in there? Basically the same intervention or relax or open space and as they would do that, cause I was amazed that people could do that. It would just suddenly they would turn into this other person who had a lots of curiosity, calm compassion for the target part and things would go really well.[00:50:58] And I could get out of the way and [00:51:00] they would just take over the session because they knew how to relate to that part of the heli way. And when I would do it with other healing it was like the same person popped out. And so at some point I started asking what part of you was that? And they'd say some version of, that's not a part that's me, that's myself.[00:51:22] So I came to call that itself of the capital us to distinguish it from the common use of the word self, which is. Me as a whole person. And now, again, 40 years later, thousands of clients later, thousands of people using this all over the world, we can safely say that that is in everybody and can't be damaged and it knows how to heal.[00:51:46] And, and as we were saying earlier, that's a big deal. It's amazing. And it, and it's there in everyone. There are no exceptions. So for anyone who's listening, who's got huge, soft doubt or the challenges around self-esteem or the [00:52:00] convinced that somehow they've got a flaw you also have this centered self that is filled with calm and clarity and compassion that is filled with a sense of connection and creativity and curiosity and confidence and courage.[00:52:17] It is innate in all of us. It cannot be damaged. It cannot be taken away. It is innate in every single person. There are no exceptions. And now for the person who's listening, thinking. Yeah, but I am the exception. You're even, you are not the exception. It is in you.[00:52:34] That’s right. And, and it's just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it's just pops out. And, and as you were experiencing earlier, there is an energy to it, a vibrating energy that your body, and it's, you know, its what people meditate to get to, but this is a quicker way to get to, and then not [00:53:00] only get to it, but actually from it begin to lead your life both internally and externally.[00:53:08] And this is the real key. Let's walk through ana scenario so I, if I know someone who's very, very defensive, for example, and they hearing a scenario going, why don't feel very centered? I don't feel the eight C's can you describe just your hypothetically, how is their centered self or their true self hidden?[00:53:28] If it's somebody who has described this person as defensive, they are overly protective. They're highly self-conscious. Yeah. It's what we call blended that the defensive part has blended with their self. And thinks it has to sort of like your little worried part plans with you sometimes and makes it, so you don't feel very secure.[00:53:53] The parts have that ability they can, they can take over and you can suddenly see the [00:54:00] world through their eyes when they do that. And so a lot of the work is just convincing them that they don't have to do that. And as, as we found, they're often stuck back in times when they, they did need to do it when you were 10 and are not aware that they don't still need to do it.[00:54:23] So, so the defense would go ahead. So I was going to say, and it's not that they take over the center itself. I don't want anyone hearing thinking the center itself can be hijacked. Or in any way co-opted to work for a protect. It doesn't, it is sacrosanct. It is sacred within, as soon as the seat of our consciousness, it is unblemished through all of time, but the protectors take over and it takes a back seat.[00:54:51] It is no way blemish though. Yeah, yeah. In a sense they, they can take over and and partly [00:55:00] because it can happen so quickly that they blend with us, that we're not even aware of it. And we just start to look through at the world through their perspective until you start to get hip to it. And you notice, so I, I work with lots of clients who, who have a lot of very extreme, protective parts that they're quite blended with.[00:55:26] And so gradually I help I say no, that isn't, you that's this. Defensive part. Let's get to know it. And as they get to know it, then they get a little separation from it. And then as they separate from it, they get a little more access to sell. And then if something happens that, that the defensive part gets a, I know you don't like the word triggered, but what's the word you reacted reactive.[00:55:56] Yeah. If it takes over again, [00:56:00] now they kind of notice it's taken over. Whereas before they wouldn't, they would just be that part. And instead of going with all of its paranoid stuff or whatever it's saying, while they notice it's taken over inside, they can kind of say, it's okay, I'm here still. I can, I can handle this.[00:56:24] And so that becomes the way to handle your anger rather than all the. You know, affect regulation skills that you have to learn all that stuff. Yes. And the way you put it, Dick is we're going to learn to speak for our parts instead of from them. And I love that distinction. So rather than just feeling reactive and then acting on that reactivity, it's that cause and effect, I feel it.[00:56:51] So I'm going to say it it's hang on. I feel it reassure it, remind it that you're here and you've got [00:57:00] this and then speak for it. And to say I'm feeling part of me is feeling whatever it's feeling and thought of me is feeling tense right now. Part of me is feeling upset with the way that you put that and it's really feeling uncared for.[00:57:15] So I'm just going to take a moment. I'm going to breathe into it because right now I feel like part of me wants to lash out. But there's a bigger part of me that wants to maintain their connection with you. And that's a very different scenario in the conversation with someone you love. This is just coming from that reactivity with the justification and the heat that we can feel.[00:57:36] Yeah. I I'm continually impressed with how deeply, you know, the model. And so I'm very happy about that, but that's okay. Be a good opportunity to just do this internal family systems therapy by Schwartz and Sweezy, is that the one you recommend? Yeah, well, that's for therapists, but coaches would get a lot out of it too.[00:58:00] [00:57:59] It's the second that people want to get. I really have been studying it Dick because I've found it very joyful way to getting I am a meditator and I'm a very poor meditator. I'm the first to say that. So finding IFS and realizing, I now have something to bring to my meditate. My daily practice has been very energizing for me and I enjoy doing it now, whereas before it's been quite a challenge.[00:58:26] And so there's been a lot of joy around that internal journey now because of the guidance that you've provided. One of the things I love about self is in many traditions, in fact, all throughout history, in the spiritual traditions, the Self is a witness, or is a is silent and still, but for you Dick and IFS the self is very active.[00:58:47] And shows up and doesn't just witness, can you just flesh that out a little bit? Yeah. Again, you said it really well, and that's a lot of what spiritual traditions are [00:59:00] designed or try to achieve is to have you in that witness consciousness, where you're noticing your thoughts and emotions. You're not bonded with them and you're noticing them maybe from a place of acceptance, but you're pretty passive.[00:59:15] You're not active with them. You just kind of witness. And for me, it's not compassionate to watch suffering beings’ parade by. So if you think of these as merely thoughts and emotions, it makes sense to separate and just witness. But if you think of them as suffering beings, which is what I feel like they are.[00:59:39] Yes. Then no, you're not going to just sit there and watch them. You're going to go and try and do what you did with your little one a minute ago. And you're going to become an active leader that they can trust because most of these parts are quite young, even the ones that seem so smart and, and protective [01:00:00] are, you know, usually not more than a teenager and they aren't equipped or run a whole person.[01:00:09] They actually, when they see that you're not 10 and that you're a good deal, older,[01:00:16]they get, they get a lot of relief from that. Cause it's like Lord of the flies, you know, it's like a bunch of little kids just trying to make it. And here comes some adult and they, Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. I love it. It's fantastic. One of the things that I'm loving is my daily practice. So if I was to talk about ifs in terms of outcomes, it brings me closer to flow.[01:00:44] What Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi talks about that state of flow. To me, it's about helping me experience balance on the inside and on the outside. It helps me know that my outside world is an opportunity for me to learn more about how I've [01:01:00] created my inside world. Is there anything else you would add in terms of that in terms of IFS just regular daily practice?[01:01:08] Yeah. It's also fascinating as you're finding, you know, who knew there was all this stuff going on inside of you. That is so interesting. And so, so that, and the more you heal these very, very vulnerable exiles. Then the more, the whole system relaxes. And so the goals that IFS there are four, one is the liberation of these parts from the extreme roles they've forced into, which is what we did really quickly with your a little one.[01:01:44] And then and then helping those parts start to trust self-more as the leader, both internally and externally, and then re harmonizing the inner system. So not only the parts [01:02:00] liberated from their roles, but they begin to get to know each other and work together. And you'd stopped noticing them very much because they're just doing what they're here to do.[01:02:10] They're doing what they're designed to do. And it's almost like, I don't know if you ever saw the murmuration of starlings that. With those videos, check it out. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's like, they're working as one organism and you feel much more integrated and there's a kind of beauty to that. And then you can be in the world in a much more integrated way so that your, the things you used to fear doing, you just don't have the same fear about.[01:02:46] And and that's a lot of what I'm doing with activists and, and you know, the things you used to rely on these intense protectors you don't need anymore. And so you can, like we were saying earlier, [01:03:00] you can see the pain that drives people like Donald Trump and, and, and all those extremes, even while you're not letting him ruin the country.[01:03:12] And, and then you also are no longer, so afraid to get really, really, really close to an intimate partner cause they can't hurt you in the same way. And so, yeah, there's a lot to be said about it and also you can get hurt, but handle it. It doesn't create this massive flare. It doesn't become an emergency Dick.[01:03:38] That's the difference for me, I'm still going to get hurt, but it's just not going to turn into an emergency. That's right. It's not going to be an emergency. And when I get hurt, I know to go to the part that was hurt yeah. And comfort and hold it in the way you just did rather than locked away. So that's, that's, we're trying to [01:04:00] bring this to education.[01:04:01] So the kids learn at an early age. If I get bullied, I don't have to exile the part that got hurt. I can embrace it and unburden it in the moment. Yeah, that's important. So let's talk about coaching and ifs. I can see some really beautiful parallels and some synergies there. One of the first things that I've took from ifs immediately into my coaching.[01:04:25] So I coach some clients is the beautiful, compassionate sense that whatever's coming up for them. There is going to be compassion for that. part acceptance, not tolerance. It's not even tolerance, it's acceptance and embracing and understand that that part of them was geared at that stage of their development to do the job the best they could.[01:04:47] And the moment we can relieve them of that job and find out what they'd prefer to do, they then have just co-opted the sense itself. Now has somebody else on their team to help them be all they can [01:05:00] be. Because I believe coaching really is. I don't think coaching is goal setting. I believe, I think that's so superficial.[01:05:07] I believe coaching's truest purpose. It is truest core is to help us become our truest selves, to bring us closer to, to knowing, experiencing, and expressing our truest self. That centred self you speak of. So to me, coaching and IFS works well together because it's a pathway to that. I totally agree with that.[01:05:31] And very well-spoken. Yeah. It's exactly what I agree with. Another parallel I see with coaching and IFS is this we're talking, we're taught in coaching and NLP. Neuro-linguistic programming that any sign of resistance in a client is poor communication on the coach's part. Whereas IFS turns that completely around and I've embraced it immediately because it's just so it resonates so strongly.[01:05:56] It's resistance in a client is smart [01:06:00] by the client because there is a part a particular part that isn't feeling safe in that moment and is quite rightly spoken up. And that's an opportunity, again, a Trailhead for us to go and visit that part and do what we do. And I just find that it's got so much flow in it rather than saying, Oh my God, I've communicated poorly when I'm with a really defensive client, because after a while, how do you get in how many hoops as the coach?[01:06:28] Do I jump through before I say, after all, actually the resistance is really in the client and this is very freeing now to know where to look for that. That's right. And some of that comes from, there was a point where I, where clients were having really bad, like backlash experiences after some of my sessions.[01:06:51] Yeah. And I started to realize these are delicate ecologies that I'm mucking around, and I better really learn the lay of the land [01:07:00] and how to be an ecologically sensitive Explorer with them. And so the map I described earlier came out of that. It came out of sort of necessity if I was going to keep doing this.[01:07:14] And what I learned was protectors often have a really good reason to not let you in. And, and if we just try to trick them into letting us that isn't going to either it's not going to work or they're going to have consequences later. Yeah. And so we learned to really respect the pace of the protectors and to get to know them first and honor them for their service and let them know.[01:07:47] That we're not going anywhere without their permission. So they're the boss and it's our job. It's our job to make a case for why it might be in their best interest to let us [01:08:00] do some of this. But, you know, they know better than us, the potential damage that could happen inside. So we're not going to push them.[01:08:11] And they've been doing only that job all this time. It's not like they know how to do something else, just because we think we know best. As you say, we have the same goals. We have a very non pathologizing. We share a very non pathologize sort of positive sense of human nature that we convey to clients.[01:08:33] And at the same time, I think I have has. Offers a language that helps people admit to things a lot more easily. You sell hope Dick because there is a truest self that is in all of us. So we coached the truest self rather than trying to fix something that is incredibly freeing [01:09:00] that is tremendous. That's right.[01:09:03] And I'm doing a lot of work around racism now in the US and so it's one thing to listen, you know, to have a reaction inside that's racist and think, Oh my God, I'm a racist and shame yourself to death. And to try to lock away the parts that say that, and it's quite another to have that same reaction and then think, Oh, I've got some parts that carry the burden of racism.[01:09:31] I'm going to get to know them. And, and I'm, it doesn't mean I'm a racist, I, myself, isn't a racist, I've got some parts that carry that legacy burden. So let me just get to know them and see what they need to be able to unload that. And so that's what I'm trying to bring to that whole conversation too. So not only is it make for an easier convert easier to admit to things like that, [01:10:00] but it also you kind of know that you aren't these extreme things that are going on inside of you.[01:10:06] You're much more than that, but it's also not labeling the person, which I just can't. I don't understand how labeling a person is helpful. I shaming anyone, regardless of it has never helped anybody heal or brought them back into the fold. So anything that helps remove shame and up the compassion. That's the direction we want to start getting the narrative going in.[01:10:31] It must be the language of compassion. That's the only path we're going to make progress. Totally agree in that, that goes both for inside and outside. If you're working with a client as a coach and the client has a lot of anger, let's say, or yeah. And you're afraid of your own anger, or you have an attitude about your own anger, [01:11:00] then that's going to play out in your relationship with the coach, with the client, or if you're afraid of your own exiles and your client gets very weepy or vulnerable vulnerable, it's going to be very hard for you to stay with them.[01:11:15] You're going to try and perk them up, you know, or somehow it gets them away from that. Or if you're driven by people pleasing, you're going to bring that to the coaching and not want to challenge the client. It's just, there's so many ways we play out on the client. That's right. So this is a very practical way to get to know all those parts and change those interrelationships.[01:11:40] And then you can be with people no matter how they are. That's it. One of the gifts Dick just to bring this towards the end. One of the gifts in this I've been teaching attachment theory for some time to some of our coaching students. This is a very different message to attachment theory. And [01:12:00] to me, IFS is the placeholder.[01:12:02] That must come first. And then you can draw on attachment theory to perhaps indicate where the parts may be. But can you just talk us through how that is? It is quite different. Yeah. I liked the way you put that because. There's much. I love about attachment theory. I think it's a huge gift to humanity. And there is this presumption in it that unless you had a certain kind of parenting during a critical period in your childhood, you don't have any of this stuff that we're calling Self[01:12:37] you have to get it from somebody from your wife or husband or, or from your therapist. At some point it has to come from an interaction it's not inherent in us. And that, you know, I was a big believer in attachment theory when I started on this journey. Yeah. And it wasn't until I started seeing self in [01:13:00] people who had horrible, horrible childhoods, there was no way you could account for self-showing up this way based on, on what their childhood was like.[01:13:11] And I started have started thinking. Maybe this is just in us. Maybe it doesn't have to come through and interact. And I also, I'd like to think of IFS as attachment theory taken inside because self becomes the good attachment figure to these insecure or avoidantly attached part. I love that. I love that.[01:13:36] So that rather than the therapist becoming that or the coach becoming that attachment figure, you're actually promoting the person to become that attachment figure to themselves. And the gift in it, Dick is with IFS the client does the work for themselves. With themselves. You may have an external guide.[01:13:57] Who's the coach or the therapist that you do the [01:14:00] journey. So you realize how truly empowered you are because every step you take in every step you make its you. No one did it. You can't say my God, you're a great coach. I did that. That was my center itself showing up that's phenomenal. Yeah. And people can do a lot of it on their own.[01:14:18] So people are, I work with a client, we'll have a good session and then they'll go away and, and follow up. And the first 20 minutes of the next session, they're just telling me everything they did on their own with their parts. Then we go on a little more. So it's empowering. So what are some daily practices?[01:14:42] So anybody's listened to this podcast. What are some daily practices we can do straight away to come closer to our truest self or at eight C's? Yeah. So a lot of what we've been talking about is doing a U-turn in your focus. Like, are you doing it, [01:15:00] but also why? Oh, you turn so. As you go through the day, you just kind of noticing your inner reactions and particularly noticing the more extreme lines.[01:15:12] And instead of acting, based on those reactions, you're using them as trailheads to find these parts that need your attention. And you don't have time during the day, or, you know, in the situation you're in, you kind of bookmark that you say, Oh my goodness, okay, I've got to follow up on this. And then you talk to your coach and your coach helps you follow that trail had defined the part that needs to be healed and, and, or needs more from you or need like we just did.[01:15:49] And so then life, rather than being so full of things you want to avoid or things that are so irritating. [01:16:00] Everything is Oh, okay. Another f-ing growth opportunity, you know, it's, it's true. All these can help you grow. Yeah. One of the ways I use it in my daily practice stick is I check in with myself throughout the day.[01:16:17] Am I coming from my center itself? The eight C's or if I'm expressing something that's not one of the eight C's that's to me, an opportunity to reflect on me and what it is that I might be bringing energetically that's causing some imbalance or lack of harmony in this moment. It doesn't mean, so always do something about it.[01:16:34] I'm not, I'm going to be human. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, you go, you go for it. Don't be the 8 C's cause I just feel dramatic or whatever. But at least I know now where I'm coming from, whether I'm grounded in me or I'm being taken over, allowed myself to be taken over by this reactivity is the way I look at it.[01:16:56] So to me, it's a lovely gauge to just check in for myself [01:17:00] on where I'm coming from and my intent in this moment. Ve
77 minutes | Apr 21, 2021
The Man Behind The Myth | #PERSPECTIVES with Michael Gerber
Perspectives - Michael Gerber [00:01:00] [00:00:00] Sharon: [00:00:00] Everybody welcome to this episode of Perspectives. I am so thrilled to introduce today's guest to you. You may have heard a little bit of his voice before you may have recognized his voice, and I'm not going to reveal his name because I truly believe nearly all of our viewers will know this man have read his book and hopefully be applying some of the messages that are in it.[00:01:25] He is an extraordinary, innovative, extraordinary human being. He's so warm and generous. He's an entrepreneur. He's definitely a thought leader. He's the author of so far and counting 21 books, including a mega selling business book that really is considered probably, the most important, if not one of the most important business books in the world ever written, he published it in back in 1986, he did a review of it in 1995, and it has been selling as a bestseller since [00:02:00] then, which is incredible. The Wall Street Journal named this book, the number one business book of all time.[00:02:06] It sold millions of copies. Its expertise has been applied throughout businesses throughout the world in 29 languages, the world's number one, small business guru because of his series of books. And since founding his organization and a number of different companies, he has served in excess of a hundred thousand small business clients, helping them successfully transform their business, including my businesses.[00:02:38] His dream is to transform the state of small business worldwide. This is of course, Michael Gerber. He's a fabulous human being. We met way back in 2006. We were at a convention together. I had a very baby stage. He had a much, a biggest stage and I managed to catch him just as he was going on stage. And I shared with him a challenge I was having.[00:03:00] [00:02:59] Straight out having just met me. He said, you need to get over your narcissistic urge to be on stage, being the only one who can deliver that thing that needs to stop right now. Then he swept off onto stage and I thought all hell, Michael Gerber, there he goes. Then later I got into a smaller room. I paid the upsell.[00:03:17] I got into a smaller ring. That was just 20 of us. And I was the only one who asked questions. I apologized at one point for taking up the whole time, but I had Michael Gerber for an hour. So he's book, the E-Myth, is obviously the book I was speaking about . The E-Myth and the message he gave me has been the backbone, the vision, the guiding posts for how I've built my coaching businesses.[00:03:44] I credit the systems at our businesses. And how I've replaced myself in my businesses with Michael Gerber and his message in the E-Myth. It is considered one of the top business books ever written, but he's written others as well. So we're going to be talking in this conversation [00:04:00] about The E-Myth Revisited, Awaken the Entrepreneur Within and Beyond the E-Myth.[00:04:04] And I'm going to be asking him at the end about what is a legacy. The message is so simple in the E-Myth and in the books he's written yet seems so smoky to too many people. I really trust this podcast, helps anybody viewing it, how to think about their lives and their businesses and how they are creating their legacy.[00:04:26] And here he is without further await awaiting, Mr. Michael Gerber. Hey, Michael. Hello. [00:04:35] Michael: [00:04:35] How are you? I'm good. I'm fine. How are you? Well,[00:04:46] well, you're wonderful. [00:04:50] Sharon: [00:04:50] I've been doing my reading. Wonderful. I read them in sequence. I read The EMyth Revisited, then Awakening the [00:05:00] Entrepreneur Within and then Beyond the EMyth in 2016. And I noticed the, the story act -was that by design? So I noticed the hero's journey that you had in the three.[00:05:15] Was that a deliberate or my just over noticing something that wasn't there. [00:05:23] Michael: [00:05:23] First of all, you're not over noticing anything. I can absolutely promise you that. On the other hand, the books showed up at the time they were called to show up. So, no, I didn't plan from the very beginning at revisited that I wouldn’t be right.[00:05:44] Awakening the Entrepreneur within I didn't plan it - it just showed up. So I might say that my entire history has [00:06:00] been simply, it just showed up and I, I, so I'm not going to take credit for some grand scheme. Yeah. Um, all be it that the grand scheme does exist.[00:06:17] Sharon: [00:06:17] It is. So to me, there's the ordinary world. So in the hero's journey, I think you're familiar with Joseph Campbell's work in the, yes, the hero has a thousand mass or a hundred mass, a lot of mass. This one is ordinary world to me, pointing out why ordinary world should be painful to us. And we'll oversee, unpack this in more detail for our viewers who aren't familiar with your work, which would be staggering, like three people.[00:06:43] But to me, this was ordinary world pointing out why the problem is and why staying there should be painful. And then you give indications on where the extraordinary world is. Then we get into this book and you really paying a great and magnificent picture of the universe. When you [00:07:00] get out of ordinary world and into extraordinary world.[00:07:02] And in this one, you show us how to be your own hero, which to me is the ultimate mythological journey that ultimately, we should be inspiring ourselves. So by the time we get to this book, I almost felt like a graduate. I felt like I was I'd graduated too. [00:07:20] Michael: [00:07:20] Well, it's wonderful the way you envision it.[00:07:25] Um, the way you've interpreted it. And I say, it's wonderful because you're bringing your own experience to the listener, to the reader, to the thinker, the dreamer, the storyteller, the leader, you're bringing your own experience to it. And as you bring your own experience to it, you're bringing that internal life forum that has revealed itself to you.[00:07:52] Sharon: [00:07:52] Yeah, that's how I saw it. And it meant a lot to me that I felt that you were with me as I built my business all those years ago. [00:08:00] So it has been very significant to the building of our businesses. E-Myth is where it began for me. The E-Myth is required reading for entire (TCI) curriculum. So, so far that would be in existence.[00:08:13] That's literally tens of thousands of people. I consider it. The first book people should read when they're endeavoring to start a business. Because as you say in the E-Myth, don't start the business until you recognize yourself and what you're going to do wrong. If you don't have this information. So to me, it's you, you don't start the Monopoly game until, you know, the game to me, you don't start the business until, you know, the game you're about to play.[00:08:41] And most people start not even knowing the game they signed up for. They're playing Scrabble when they're actually playing Monopoly. They don't [00:08:50] Michael: [00:08:50] even know what a game. [00:08:52] Sharon: [00:08:52] Yes. [00:08:54] Michael: [00:08:54] Because they don't even know what to game. They're completely absorbed [00:09:00] in self. And not self in the, with the great S but self with the little less, I'm doing it, doing it, doing self, doing it, doing it, doing itself, then want to be doing it doing itself.[00:09:16] And it's such a tragedy. It's such a tragedy because we both know, we all know as we're speaking about this year, um, that, that little self, um, absorbed as he or she. Um, invariably is, um, misses the whole point of self and it is a tragedy and it breeds a tragedy and we become absorbed in that tragedy to the point where there is no future beyond that little self, as I say, doing it, [00:10:00] doing it, doing it, doing it busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy.[00:10:04] So yeah, they're unaware of the game. We're about to play. And that's what revisit it was all about the game we're about to play. And my primary aim, my strategic objective, my organizational strategy, my management strategy might, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I’m working on it, not in it, working on it, not in it, working above it, beyond it and so forth and so forth.[00:10:32] And that's the key to this game that you've been playing you individually had been playing and then you've been inviting every single one of your clients I presume to play. [00:10:49] Sharon: [00:10:49] Yes. Yeah. I really took on board a couple of times. You've said particularly about coaches because obviously one of the business I have is a coaching school.[00:10:58] Uh, [00:11:00] Coaches to me. And I do want to unpack the E-Myth and talk about the principles of the book for those who aren't familiar with a malicious dive into what really struck me, Michael was - I think coaches have the biggest entrepreneurial seizure of them. All practitioners who think the skill is the business, the doing of that coaching session of selling one hour of their time is the point is missing the point.[00:11:27] And Michael I've been saying for 18 years, 18 years, I have been speaking this language of how are you replacing yourself? And we designed the program. So anybody who wants to replace themselves can, but still do you notice people's, uh, vision. To letting go of the technician. You must see it the way I see it.[00:11:50] They're just holding on so tight to their hourly rate. Yeah, of [00:11:55] Michael: [00:11:55] course. And it's been that way since the very beginning. And it [00:12:00] continues today. Um, the solar preneur thing, um, which is, um, sort of agreeing there's an entrepreneur. Um, within that, just to get beyond that so that we can get back to doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it, and creating this whole mythology.[00:12:26] That is so destructive of the solopreneur. Um, there is no such thing as a solopreneur. There never has been. There never will be. It's simply a guy doing it, doing it and doing it, doing it and missing the entire freaking point. So yes, that you've been so invested in driving your students beyond that at the coach level and with the clients of that coach, speaks [00:13:00] magnitudes about what you've been attempting to do.[00:13:06] I don't know how successfully you've done that. Other than to say that I know you've succeeded at growing an enterprise. Yeah, upon that. [00:13:18] Sharon: [00:13:18] I think we hit some success. Well, okay. So we have lots of success with the people who hear the message the way I heard you. So I simply am an advocate of that message that I heard from you all those years ago, because I studied the E-Myth when I started my business and the way I feel about it, Michael if this I can, in all conscience know I have the successes I've had with my coaching school.[00:13:42] If I hadn't given my students, the reason why I have this success. So for every minute we teach them a coaching skill. I have to, I also match it with one minute. So for every hour of coaching skill, there was an hour of training. And how to think about working on your business because I [00:14:00] canl conscience it two decades later.[00:14:02] So I've had all this success because I built an enterprise that replaced me. I haven't worked to my business for nearly 10 years now, whilst I just taught everybody else had to just be stuck in their businesses. So the message has been very consistent, mainly for my conscience, because I couldn't look at people and say, I want you to sell your time for money, because that will help me.[00:14:23] So the message has been there all the way through the people who come to us because they want to feel great about themselves. That's what they get the people who want to have some part time income. That's what they get. People want full-time income and just love coaching the practitioner. I encourage them to stay in their lane.[00:14:40] You don't have to become an entrepreneur. You don't have to replace yourself as long as you know that when you go on holiday, so does your income, and that's what you want to sign up for. We will teach you that. And then there's the next cohort who say, well, I'm going to learn the skill, turn it into a system so I can step back and [00:15:00] replicate myself.[00:15:01] So we have four distinct groups throughout our programs. [00:15:05] Michael: [00:15:05] I got it. To me, in my mindset, so to speak is to continually challenge the first, the second, the third to come face to face with the fourth. Yes, because in my heart, my soul in my spirit, that when one fails to do that, they fail to take themselves on to the degree that is simply waiting for them to do that.[00:15:46] And when they fail to do that, they're failing to bring to those students, their coaching, the true spirit that is possible, [00:16:00] once they awaken to it. So it's like each and every one of them, the first and the second and the third. And then the fourth is simply a potentially a movable object, who I'm determined to upset.[00:16:30] Sharon: [00:16:30] That's it perfectly 70%. So a hundred percent start here, 70% end up in the fourth cohort. We just the whole time just,[00:16:43] Michael: [00:16:43] and you're saying, and you're saying, join me. Yeah, that's what you're, it's an invitation. It's not an exclusive creation. It's an invitation. Join me, join me. I live in a world you've never [00:17:00] seen before I live in an experience you've never had before. Join me, join me. I know you enjoy where you are. I know you feel safe where you are.[00:17:11] I know you feel productive where you are and all of those are self-righteous and probably true, but they're not the game that's waiting. To be played info. Yeah. Discover who you could potentially bring to this table in order to transform the state of the people you're engaging with every day. So you get to do that.[00:17:45] And so, because you get to do that, what else are you going to do? I mean, what else is [00:17:55] Sharon: [00:17:55] there to do? What else is there to do that to [00:18:00] me, you, you are the song that needs to be sung and everything else is the harmony. So the message of the E-Myth revisited to me is the major song. It's the backbone that should guide any movement towards building a business.[00:18:14] And I know you had your own epiphany Michael, many years ago, not too many years ago, it was like yesterday, but you had your first epiphany when it's incredible story. If anybody who anybody, if the millions of people could possibly not have read the E-Myth revisited, the I'm speaking to two people right now, there is a moment in their book where you share that you, you knew there was a piece missing.[00:18:37] And it was a blinding flash of this is so obvious once you saw it. Can you tell us, do you mind repeating that story? Because I think it's an might [00:18:47] Michael: [00:18:47] I can, uh, you're going to have to lead me into it. [00:18:52] Sharon: [00:18:52] Allow drop a few more breadcrumbs for you. It's the moment you realize this in [00:19:00] 1977 and you walked into a McDonald's hamburger joint.[00:19:03] Uh, [00:19:04] Michael: [00:19:04] not enough. Okay. Well, sure. It's more than enough. I walked into a McDonald's hamburger joint to get a hamburger. And I suddenly came to realize that this McDonald's hamburger joint was significantly beyond what I went there to get. What I actually got was the realization of what a system truly meant.[00:19:42] I became enraptured by the. Possibility that I could do the very same thing in short, that I was going to create the McDonald's of small business development services that McDonald's of [00:20:00] small business coaching services that McDonald's of small business consulting services. And my dream, um, truly came to me at that point that I'm going to transform the state of small business worldwide.[00:20:15] And the only way that could be done is if I did what Ray Kroc did at McDonald's. So yeah, I saw the franchise and I fell in love with it. I realized that it was the first time I'd actually understood it as I did in that very. The library compelling moment. It struck me. And it's true when I say this, that this is how it happens with entrepreneurs.[00:20:53] It finds you, you don't find it, but you have to be [00:21:00] a blank piece of paper. And beginner's mind at the process ensured there has to be something completely out of the way. You have to be completely open to the possibility that something astonishing is going to happen to me and that something is finishing is waiting to happen.[00:21:20] So when you talked about your realization, something astonishing happened to you, as you experienced the E-Myth revisited and allowed it to take you in. It was that Holy moly experience. It's that sudden seeing. And that sudden seeing is unlike anything else that happens to us. And thank God it's happening.[00:21:53] Sharon: [00:21:53] Thanks. I'm glad it happened for me, but I have to say, Mike, I see a lot of people who see the message here, the message you grew with the [00:22:00] message and then ignore it. So they're not having to me the obvious of epiphany. [00:22:05] Michael: [00:22:05] No, of course they ignored because they're afraid of it. They're afraid of it. You understand?[00:22:13] It's just, it's just that they're afraid of it because they are challenged by it to become someone they're terrified. They'll never become. I can't do that. I can't do that is what rises within them. I can't do that. I can't do that. And what if I did, what if I did, what then? What would happen? You follow me.[00:22:44] Sharon: [00:22:44] Yeah. And it's also, I don't know how to do that, but of course. [00:22:48] Michael: [00:22:48] Yeah, of course. I don't know how to do that. I've never done that. I have no idea, but [00:22:53] Sharon: [00:22:53] yeah, all I've done is sold my time for money. I don't understand that it could be any other way. [00:23:00] Well, [00:23:00] Michael: [00:23:00] I see that knowing my time for money is so hard anyway.[00:23:04] Yes. Yeah. It's so hard. And it, I mean to then think about going beyond spelling my time for money and actually creating a methodology through which everybody could sell their time for money, meaning replacing myself in that. It's just. Far too threatening. [00:23:29] Sharon: [00:23:29] Hm. And I do notice that people who have, are exposed to the message long enough, eventually start hearing it sometime for you use walked into McDonald's for me, I picked up the E-Myth and I met you for the very first time.[00:23:43] That was enough. But for others, repetition becomes, starts breeding familiarity, which breeds more comfort. I have noticed as people have moved throughout programs, they get more comfortable with the idea of letting go of the tightness and starting to look at the, on instead of in the business. Have you noticed that [00:24:00] as well, that sometimes familiarity helps the epiphany become a reality?[00:24:05] Michael: [00:24:05] Well, yes. I've noticed it because they become more familiar with the store. My co-author of the E-Myth HVHC. Contractor, Ken Goodrich when he started with the events, not when he started as an HPAC contractor, but when he started with the E-Myth and that's after he failed as an HVHC contractor, he read the book, then he read the book a second time.[00:24:41] Ken Goodrich read the book 39 times. Yes. Yeah. Think about that. [00:24:46] Sharon: [00:24:46] 39 times. I read it five times in my fifth year in business. [00:24:54] Michael: [00:24:54] You're as crazy as I am. What can I? Yeah, but it struck me, it [00:25:00] struck me, it struck me, it struck me and each time he read it, he saw something more. Each time he read it, he saw something more.[00:25:08] So each time he saw something more, he was capable of thinking beyond where he was to grade something he'd never done before. Yeah. So yes, I have seen that. I know that. I've heard that again and again and again and again. Unfortunately, and sadly, I just don't hear it enough. I wish I could hear it.[00:25:35] A million times, you understand that literally we could transform the state of entrepreneurship worldwide. You and I could actually do that to a degree. Never imagined possible before. [00:25:54] Sharon: [00:25:54] Yes I [00:25:55] Michael: [00:25:55] do. Yep. If somehow, if some way we [00:26:00] were able to literally drag them, kicking and shaking and whatever they were to get them to do the first thing.[00:26:12] And then the second thing, and then the third thing and in the process of get, getting them to do the first thing and the second thing, and the third thing. Suddenly the fourth thing would get done almost on its own. [00:26:27] Sharon: [00:26:27] Yes, that's right. And that in and get out of the inertia the way I see you've got to get out of the initial inertia.[00:26:35] It's like getting a rocket ship out of gravity and the rock, the energy it takes to get the rocket ship going is massive. And I get that first burn is hard, but the burn gets easier as gravity gets less. And eventually we're just, it's automatic. But people got to get past that first rocket burn. Cause that burn, it hurts.[00:26:54] Michael: [00:26:54] Yes. And they've got to get past it. There's no question, but they have to get past [00:26:59] Sharon: [00:26:59] it [00:27:00] and they have to go through [00:27:01] Michael: [00:27:01] it. Yeah, yeah. Right. You can't do it for them. You can't do it for them. You can't do it for them. You can't take that pain away. Yeah. That's cheating but the truth is once that pain is experienced, once they break through that barrier, it takes them the next step and the next step and the next step.[00:27:31] And suddenly they're in a liberation stage, which is a state all of its own. Yeah. So our job, your job, my job, your job, more than my job now in these days, um, your job is to see that through. Yep , no matter what your job is to see that through your job, isn't to say. But it's too difficult for it's too difficult for your [00:28:00] job.[00:28:00] Isn't to pass that your job is to pursue that with everything you've got. [00:28:08] Sharon: [00:28:08] Yup. Yup. I love that. I can you share with our viewers plays Michael from the E-Myth a little bit about this fatal assumption, the assumption that if we understand the technical work, that somehow we'll have a business model, can you share this fatal assumption, which I really think is the entrepreneurial seizure that you talk so beautifully about.[00:28:28] Can you introduce our viewers to your thinking around that? [00:28:32] Michael: [00:28:32] Well, the fatal assumption is that if I can do what I've set out to do, then it will liberate me to do more. Um, and it's just not true. Um, I had this great [00:29:00] conversation with a wonderful partner of mine and there is a. Process that is called for it to awaken the entrepreneur within that requires one to think turnkey, if one is ever to do turnkey and until one does turnkey, one will never become turn key.[00:29:40] Yeah. So it's a process. One has to engage in that is transformational. I've said to Mark saying it to you. I'll say it to the world that the word is transformation. [00:30:00] Transformation is the key transformation means. To go beyond what I know to be true, discover what I will never know how to do until I've passed through that window of[00:30:29] transformation. Okay. Um, transformation is what occurs and it occurs to a degree that is in some sense of the word, um, terrifying. That's why most don't it's terrifying because what we're really asking people to do is to become [00:31:00] who they aren't, not who they are, who they, aren't not who they are. When I talk about a blank piece of paper and beginner's mind to become who you aren't rather than who you are.[00:31:20] And there's no experience that will enable one to grow comfortable with the possibility of becoming who I'm not, who I'm not is everything that's waiting in. The wings speaking. In a strange language,[00:31:50] somebody who is caught up in who I am,[00:31:58] tragically [00:32:00] consumed by who I [00:32:01] Sharon: [00:32:01] am. And by what I do by what I do is by what's in front of us, not what's who [00:32:09] Michael: [00:32:09] I am is what I do. What I do was, yeah, I am. That's why I say until I,[00:32:18] until I truly understand it, turn key. I will never become turnkey. And until I become turn key, I'll never truly understand the transformation that occurs in that. Not glib moment. Yeah. Now I don't know whether that makes sense to anybody we're talking to right now. [00:32:53] Sharon: [00:32:53] I'm going to give you an example of it now.[00:32:55] So I remember our conversation. So we had two conversations that day. There [00:33:00] was the conversation where it was the narcissistic seizure that you slapped me for. That was fantastic. And then we went into a smaller room cause I bought a ticket to your very elite room and it was, I always get into the smallest rooms wherever I can, Michael, where the biggest investment is going to be the smallest room, which means the most access Michael, there were.[00:33:18] 1520 people in that room. And not one person asked you a question. I was the only person who asked you a question. It blew my mind. So I had this whole hour of you mentoring me in front of 20 other people. I'll take it any day of the week. It was fantastic. So we discussed when we're about to share with you.[00:33:37] I, what I did to build this business and it's turned over hundreds of millions of dollars is the following. I started out with the E-Myth. This is a true story guys. I started out with this book and Michael's advice, which I'm happy to share right now. It's basically the E-Myth. And I was a technician knowing I was a technician with very little skill [00:34:00] in anything I needed.[00:34:02] I set out, in the E-Myth the skills I needed in advance. So ahead of me, Michael, I had a blueprint of all the categories of skills I would need. To follow your message. And they were all empty. None of them had anything written in them. I didn't know how to do any of it. So, business skills, marketing skills, sales skills, leadership skills, delegation, project management, skills, performance management skills, finance skills, seven categories were blank.[00:34:33] And I didn't even have coaching skills. So, I had this blank. So, they want, I did was I began filling in where I was. So, I started getting some coaching skills and developing speaking skills. As I did that, I began documenting what worked. That was my first move towards replacing me. So, every step I took that worked with a client and was really successful and quote on, because I was very, very successful coach.[00:34:59] I [00:35:00] documented, as I documented it, I put it into a system. I was creating my first client fulfillment system. Didn't have the language for this, but that's what I was doing. This is for anybody listening, it's not just coaches, its consultants, practitioners, justas anybody who thinks they are stuck in the, doing the, doing the doing it.[00:35:19] Isn't true. So I began documenting it. Then I began looking for patents in the system, Michael. So I knew it'd be a progressive turnkey system that someone else could walk through. Then I began having little groups. Exactly. As you did testing and asking them, what is it you want? What is it you need? How is this going to work for you?[00:35:40] What's your greatest fear? What's your greatest concern. What's keeping you awake at night. And I began building that into the system. Then I had my first training where I charged for it and I started revealing it and I got more feedback. And as I did that, I began building the skills in the other seven areas.[00:35:58] I went from zero to a [00:36:00] million dollars profit in two years. In my fourth year, I made $4 million following a 300 page book and one hour of your advice. So that's somebody who had no coaching skills when they began, I had to learn all of this and at the end of that, so at the 12 year mark, I had an entire vision for myself and we get to talk about personal transformation.[00:36:24] In a moment, I had a vision for myself. Michael is one of the things you said to me was, it's not a business transformation. It's a personal transformation. I had no idea what you meant, but I went away and thought about it. So what is the personal transformation I need? I need to grow into the person who can handle this because today this person can't handle any of that.[00:36:44] I can't handle. Having a team. I couldn't handle the finances at that level. So I had to grow personally to keep up with what I expected to be my legacy in my business. And I had a 12 year plan to replace myself. And on the [00:37:00] 12th year I walked out of my business and I'd replaced myself. And now haven't worked in this business.[00:37:05] That's doing better without me in the last eight and a half years, simply by following all of these steps. So I am the biggest advocate that this is doable for us. [00:37:17] Michael: [00:37:17] So you've just described the evolution of an enterprise, a company of one to a company of 1000. You've just described beyond the E-Myth the evolution of an enterprise from a company of one to a company of 1000.[00:37:32] You literally did it. Yup. Yup. By step by step, [00:37:37] Sharon: [00:37:37] by step, by step by step. [00:37:39] Michael: [00:37:39] Yep. Exactly. As I defined it, In that book that you bought for $12. So hear me, [00:37:51] Sharon: [00:37:51] I paid $500 for that hour with you.[00:37:57] Michael: [00:37:57] You spent for that hour with me, [00:38:00] but we never spent any more time after that. You took it. You got it. You did it. You took it. You got it. You did it. I want to say to you how extraordinary. That is how extraordinary that is and what a gift that is to every single human being you work with and your company's work with since and what a gift that's going to be when you actually go beyond that too, because while you've arrived at a space and a place that very few people will ever arrive at, you're still on your way.[00:38:47] Sharon: [00:38:47] Yes, [00:38:49] Michael: [00:38:49] you are still on your way. Yeah, and that's gotta be immensely [00:38:56] Sharon: [00:38:56] exciting to you. It's wonderful. [00:39:00] Rereading your books makes me realize the gaps that we have, that we haven't taken care of everything. So we're doing what you did recently. We're going back and relooking and redefining how this needs to be based on your message.[00:39:13] So my husband and I J JP and I we've spent the last three days discussing your books. We've both been devouring them again and asking ourselves questions about our businesses based on, we just were Gerber-ing everything. Just so you know, the, every business we have, I don't know how many we own. We're Gerber-ing all our businesses right now, that's become part of our new policy in the company.[00:39:37] Michael: [00:39:37] I love it. I absolutely love it. [00:39:41] Sharon: [00:39:41] So let's go right back to a very basic step. There are three levels of thinking the way. Michael sees things. So there's the technician, the doing the, doing the doing there's the manager who is meant to monitor, manage and measure the systems that make the, doing the, doing the doing possible.[00:39:58] And then the [00:40:00] entrepreneur who has even stepped beyond that and is leading and inspiring the manager to manage the systems and to bring the vision to life. What do you see is preventing people moving from technician? Let's just get them to manager. Let's just get them to that first step. What do you think the block is?[00:40:20] Or what's the biggest challenge you see that we can help them with? Well, [00:40:24] Michael: [00:40:24] the biggest challenge is actually expecting them to, okay, so hear me. The reason they don't is because we don't expect them to. So in most organizations, there is very little expectation of the evolution. Of the enterprise, Eric, we have a technician, who's doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it.[00:40:50] They're either bad at it. They're mediocre at it, or they're good at it. And a handful of very, very small handful are expert at it. [00:41:00] What Ben, nobody wishes to do is to take the expert at it. And move them on to become a manager of that, because we don't want to lose the results they produce as an expert at that.[00:41:16] So the thing that's missing in the organization is literally the expectation that everyone moves, [00:41:23] Sharon: [00:41:23] that you're really shortsighted, [00:41:25] Michael: [00:41:25] everyone moves, and that means up or out [00:41:32] Sharon: [00:41:32] up or out. Yep. Or across I've had people in my company who decided they're not going to ever be an expert in that thing. And they've go found another thing in our company where they can bring their passion to lighter.[00:41:43] We can be. Yeah. [00:41:44] Michael: [00:41:44] But you understand, you asked the question, so what what's missing and what's missing is the expectation that everyone moves [00:41:56] Sharon: [00:41:56] in their own business. What's missing for them. Why, [00:42:00] why does a coach just stay [00:42:03] Michael: [00:42:03] Included, that is, it's never been a mindset that effectively says I'm only going to do this until this occurs.[00:42:16] I'm here to make that occur. In short, I'm not here to make this occur continuously. The system is here to do that. I'm here to move beyond that work, to grow that work to the point that that work can work an exponentially greater degree than it's capable of doing right now. I'm here to grow my enterprise.[00:42:44] I'm here to grow the company. From a company of one to a company of 1000. So there is not that there. And if that's not there, it doesn't happen. You understand it, it has to, it has to live in the [00:43:00] mind and heart and soul of the individual we're speaking to. So how does that occur? Yeah, that has to occur through the interface that individual has with a leader.[00:43:18] So there has to be expectation that everybody moves. Everybody moves. Yeah. His expectation is that most people don't in short that if I can find somebody who's really good at this, I want to keep them doing this because. Not doing this means they're going to be ineffective at doing that. Yes. So the expectation is an inhibitor.[00:43:55] Sharon: [00:43:55] I think this is same for business owners, all for technicians who are in their own [00:44:00] businesses. They don't have that expectation of themselves. Even though they hear the message there. I come across a lot of people who can't envision how they would move out of selling their time for money too.[00:44:14] They don't know what to work on when I say work on your business. And even when we explain the steps, which are all available, they still seem to have this gap that that can happen for themselves. [00:44:26] Michael: [00:44:26] Well, of course it's. Yes, but yes, but yes, but as you heard it, you know, it, you recognize it. And it's right there in the way of anything magical happening.[00:44:39] Um, there is no magic possible when the, the thinking about it is so steroid sterility of that position, one takes that is so inhibiting. Yeah. [00:45:00] So that's why very, very simple. That's why so transform that. And you suddenly find yourself in a new world. [00:45:08] Sharon: [00:45:08] One of the things you talk about beautifully and passionately about Michael is none of this is for business.[00:45:13] All of this is for life and that this is a personal transcending journey to get there. You definitely think very, big picture. I love the way you think the big picture you see that if this mind isn't operating at that level, none of this doing. The way we want to change, it can happen. You speak about transformation and transcending that we need to work on our lives.[00:45:39] If we expect our business to transcend as well. Can you speak to that a little bit? I love when you speak about that, because I do believe my business is there to support the life I want to have it isn't that my life is my business. [00:45:54] Michael: [00:45:54] I had a wonderful conversation, a continuing conversation in, [00:46:00] with a small group participating in what we call Radical U.[00:46:04] Radical You is our new school, for awakening the entrepreneur within ordinary people. And, I created a small group as a test of students who were going through the normal curriculum of Radical You. So they can get some experience of feedback in the conversation that's awakened in each of these weekly classes.[00:46:41] And this particular conversation arose within a lovely gentleman from Israel who happens to be a real estate agent, independent agent. And I introduced him to my [00:47:00] co-author of the E-Myth real estate agent. And he said to me, a few meetings back. He said, when he met him, he simply took it for granted that the guy knew something that he would be best.[00:47:25] Committed to learn, but he never truly appreciated the profound, profound impact that it could have on him. He said, I feel so ashamed that I didn't value the profound life force that just meeting that man would bring to me. [00:48:00] Yeah. And he said, it just struck me one moment. It was like this own, my God.[00:48:10] He's talking about my life. Yeah. He's not talking about real estate. He's talking about my life. He continued to say that. And all of the experiences he's shared in this group, I have about 23 students in this group. They all come, we all come together every other week. As he's sharing this, he is sharing this with tears, and this is a man in his early fifties.[00:48:49] He's describing the profound meaning of this to his life, to his [00:49:00] relationship, with his children, to his relationship, with his wife, to his relationship, with his clients, to his relationship, with his work. And he's describing this. With such passion that is so far beyond[00:49:24] income so far beyond. [00:49:28] Sharon: [00:49:28] Yes.[00:49:33] Michael: [00:49:33] Okay. It says though, when you say, how could I possibly have been alive in this work without what he shared with me? I felt so ashamed. He said today[00:49:55] too. So missed the point. Hmm. [00:50:00] So when we speak about that, It's far beyond any language we can bring to the task. [00:50:13] Sharon: [00:50:13] Yes. Yes. I love that [00:50:15] Michael: [00:50:15] life, Michael. It's my life. My God. It's my life. You're speaking about not my job. [00:50:30] Sharon: [00:50:30] Yup. How I view me? Who am I? And I'm not the task in front of me. I just not, I'm the legacy.[00:50:39] I'm the vision. I'm what I'm. If I don't inspire me, I'm not doing it right. I've gotta be my inspiration. That's what it is to me, Michael, [00:50:50] Michael: [00:50:50] if I don't rise to this occasion, To experience the [00:51:00] eloquence of it. I've missed everything. [00:51:05] Sharon: [00:51:05] Yeah. And it's worth saying for anybody who's viewing this or listening to this and not getting it it's worth pursuing until you get it.[00:51:14] Just start with the E-Myth Revisited or go to Radical U.com and just start somewhere with exposing yourself to this type of thinking. That's what I did, Michael. It was very foreign to me. I'd been raised on sell, sell an hour for 25 bucks. So that sounds just mind blowing. I just trained my brain in your thinking when I began.[00:51:42] I just trained my brain in how you thought about it. So I read this book many times. I just kept thinking, how would my, how do I need to look about this? So I'm applying the E-Myth. Am I letting myself right now down right now, because I'm not thinking about this in terms of a visionary. And I just kept challenging myself because you give so many ways to [00:52:00] look at it.[00:52:00] Michael, it's doable for all of us. If we're willing to stop stagnating on yesterday's thinking and challenge what goes in here, it's all about how we think. Everything we build is an idea. That's all it is. It is not the next widget that we're turning out. It's the idea of what that widget represents.[00:52:19] That's the widget, is a widget to a technician, to a manager and as a system and to a visionary and a later, and our entrepreneur, it is freedom. It’s a widget it a fricking widget. [00:52:33] Michael: [00:52:33] Well, and the only thing that you folks who are listening to us ramble on right now need to know is it's all real. You understand, this is not something were concocting out of thin air.[00:52:50] It's all real. It's real for us. The experience is alive in us. And what we're saying to you, and this is [00:53:00] what's so important about is it can be alive to you as well. And if it isn't. You're paying an enormous price for the loss of it. [00:53:14] Sharon: [00:53:14] Yes. [00:53:15] Michael: [00:53:15] You just got to do the work. You just got to do the work. Hear me.[00:53:19] You're just got to do the work. And the beauty of it is it's all spelled out for you. It's a freaking system. [00:53:27] Sharon: [00:53:27] It is a system. Let's talk about that. Yes. So one of the things you say is systems enable you to keep your word. I believe, systems equal trust. Consistency in systems, equal trust. And I think that's parallel to the way you look at it.[00:53:44] If something is chaotic, unreliable, inconsistent, made up on the spot, I don't believe that person's put the thought into it necessary for me to entrust them with my dollar. My dollar goes two way. There is consistency, [00:54:00] stability, replicability, and sustainability. That's what I'm looking for. Then I know there's the potentiality for a relationship in business.[00:54:09] Michael: [00:54:09] Yes. And that exists right now, um, with everything you do. Every single day and anyone who's sitting here with us right now can put their faith in that because it's worked for ordinary people in extraordinary ways, again and again, and again, and again, it's the system stupid. That's the genius of McDonald's it's the system stupid.[00:54:37] You're going to have 37,000 stores throughout the world doing one thing one way called our way McDonald's way and produce and replicate that identical experience again and again and again and again and again, which means that you and I can do that. [00:55:00] And hear me if I'm saying, which means you and I can do that.[00:55:04] Holy moly, what else do I want? But the integrity of that fact, that I've just stated that you and I can do that. We can, we can do that. And we have, and that's, what's so absolutely exciting about that. We have done that and now you [00:55:26] Sharon: [00:55:26] can. Yup. That's true. We're going to move into awaking, the entrepreneur within, and I love what you say on balance.[00:55:34] I you're the first person I've met, who feels the same way I do about balance. I believe FA it's a figment of our imagination. I think it's arbitrary. Eight hours, eight hours, eight hours. You don't go on holiday and do eight hours, eight hours, eight hours. So why in your real life do you do eight, eight and eight.[00:55:50] If your passions flowing and you've got the vision, you just do the foot. What do you want? You want people who want balance to me, to worried [00:56:00] about, , stability and sameness and stagnation. Is there anything you'd want to speak to about that? Michael? We want to wake up entrepreneurs who are listening.[00:56:11] Michael: [00:56:11] You hear me hear me? Uh, let, let me speak to it in a prophetic way. That the entrepreneur is actually four distinct people. Yes. A dreamer, a thinker, a storyteller, and a leader. The dreamer has a dream. The thinker has a vision. The storyteller has a purpose and the leader has a mission. So our job, because I'm saying we're going to awaken the true entrepreneur within every human being who says.[00:56:50] Helped me the job is to discover the dream, the vision, the purpose, and the mission. So that's what we do. What [00:57:00] we call it the dreaming room. We engage an individual, any individual who says, take me there, take me there. If you dare take me there. I want to discover what you mean. When you say the dreamer, the thinker, the storyteller, and the leader.[00:57:19] I have a dream. I have a vision. I have a purpose. I have a mission. Take me there. And what we do in Radical U is to take an individual through that process.[00:57:30] Sharon: [00:57:30] That's [00:57:30] Michael: [00:57:30] right. That. One can say I have a dream. In my case, my dream was to transform the state of small business worldwide, have a dream to transform the state of small business.[00:57:44] Worldwide. Every single human being on the planet must have a dream. Because without a dream, it's just what it's just doing it, doing it, doing it. [00:58:00] So I'm saying we're going to awaken the entrepreneur within every human being on the planet by discovering your dream. And I've written it down to transform this state of blank worldwide.[00:58:14] Yup. What's your blank. And simply the question, what's your blank. That's the great result you're here to produce. That's what a dream is a great result. You're here to produce. The second is your vision and your vision is the form your company is going to take. So in my case way back then in 1977, I had a dream to transform the state of small business worldwide.[00:58:45] My vision. Was to invent the McDonald's of small business consulting services. Get it McDonald's was that template, the model that [00:59:00] I utilized in order to envision the company I was setting out to create. So I had a great result to produce my dream, to transform the state of small business worldwide and the vision of the company to which I would achieve that result.[00:59:19] And that was my vision. The next question became, so what's my purpose. The dreamer has a dream. The thinker has a vision. The storyteller has a purpose. My purpose was to make certain that every single small business owner who was attracted to my dream and to my vision could effectively become a successful as a McDonald's franchisee.[00:59:47] Get, it could become a successful as a McDonald's franchisee. That was my purpose. And finally, my mission. My mission was [01:00:00] very, very straightforward. It was to invent the business development system that would enable me to realize my dream, my vision, and my purpose, the dreamer, the thinker, the storyteller, the leader, get this to the degree you engage in that process.[01:00:19] Michael, I have a dream. My dream is to transform the state of blank worldwide. I have a vision. My vision is to invent the McDonald's of blank [01:00:31] Sharon: [01:00:31] to achieve, [01:00:34] Michael: [01:00:34] to fulfill the dream. I have a purpose. My purpose is to attract and et cetera, and so forth in order to be as successful as blank. And my mission was to invent the system that makes all that possible.[01:00:53] You got it. Turnkey. Yep. Absolutely. Replicable. Yes. [01:01:00] And they're in resides awakening. The entrepreneur within the heart of that book is the process that I've just sketched out and the opportunities that make it possible to literally invent a company that could be scaled just like Ray Kroc scaled.[01:01:23] McDonald's [01:01:25] Sharon: [01:01:25] well, the moment you have a dream, like you just said, the moment, your dreams, that big, you got to lift yourself out of the technician. You got to lift yourself out of the doing and the join because it's so beautiful and magnificent. It's got legacy in there as well. [01:01:42] Michael: [01:01:42] Yeah. Or you can say my dream is to make a hundred thousand dollars a year.[01:01:51] You understand you suddenly have gone from being a dreamer. Yeah. To being something significantly less than [01:02:00] that, because the dream is never about me. The dream is about it. I'm here to transform the state of the world. I'm here to awaken the spirit of imagination. I'm here to become a entrepreneur world-class to a degree I'd never imagined before.[01:02:26] I'm here to pursue the impossible through a process that makes it possible for me to achieve it. So. The job isn't to satisfy one's small instincts. Yeah. The job is to take them beyond [01:02:51] Sharon: [01:02:51] it's not our job. And when we do this is not about solving the immediate problem we have right now, the problem we have right now is not anything to do with the dream.[01:03:00] [01:02:59] The dream is about others. It's who we're going to serve. It's how are we going to make a difference? It's how are we going to leave a footprint? The problem we've got now, I need cash right now that can't be turned into a dream. Cause that's not that soul about lack and hoarding and hyping and wanting a solution and feeling crisis and urgency dreams are built on way past that.[01:03:23] So we can set a hundred thousand dollars goal and think that's a dream. It just can't be so [01:03:29] Michael: [01:03:29] effectively. We're really saying I'm here to awaken the dreamer within you. Yeah. That's what you were saying to every single person who comes through your doors. We're here to awaken the dreamer within you. We're not here to make a successful coach out of a perspective, entrepreneur.[01:03:46] We're not here to create a successful doer, um, in, in inhabiting the life of a successful creator. We're here to discover the creator within the [01:04:00] creator, within the Imagineer, within, as Walt Disney called them. And that's who we're here to pursue with everything we've got. Now, hear me. That's gonna scare the living daylights out of you because the one in you who is terrified of not becoming successful in our ordinary life.[01:04:27] Is going to be absolutely blown out of their socket when I say, yeah, we're not here to do that. Anyway, we're here to step beyond that anyway. And the process through which we do that is very much like the process that a US Navy seal does.[01:04:53] Sharon: [01:04:53] You don't get a bell, you don't get to tap out. [01:04:58] Michael: [01:04:58] Yeah. But I'm not [01:05:00] good as that. I'm not as big as that. I'm not as exceptional as that. No, of course. You're not. None of us are, but we'll be, you will get the degree. You simply say I will. So if you have the determination to become someone you're not. We have the process to which to enable you to do that where there's a will.[01:05:31] There's a way if you've got, we got the way, if you've got the will, we've got the way that's effectively what you're saying to every single person who comes through your door. If you've got the will, we got the way don't believe us. Let me show you. Let me show you. Let me show you. Let me show you. Mary, did you have the will, Mary Johnny?[01:05:53] Did you have the will? Jodi, did you have the will Jerry? Did you have the will? [01:05:59] Sharon: [01:05:59] Yeah, we say to [01:06:00] everybody, we said, everybody bring you and your willingness to give it a go. We will take care of how it unfolds because we get so many people asking before they join. How does it work? How do I fly? What do. If you read them, don't worry about it.[01:06:17] The, how is all has been taken care of for years, for decades, we've got the, how it's a proven methodology, your ability to apply what works instead of letting your ego take over and thinking you're going to know best. And you want to find your own way. We're going to save you years, absolutely years. If you just follow this methodology versus trying to figure it out for yourself.[01:06:40] Michael: [01:06:40] Yep. [01:06:42] Sharon: [01:06:42] You also talk about comfort versus challenge. [01:06:47] Michael: [01:06:47] Oh, I do. [01:06:48] Sharon: [01:06:48] You do God. I should put myself in a position where I'm challenged. That is a direct Michael Gerber quote and you had just sneak in awakening when you're 69 years old and you [01:07:00] felt like you'd been asleep up until then. So that was before, beyond the E-Myth terrace chair with us.[01:07:05] What the second epiphany was please.[01:07:09] Michael: [01:07:09] Well, well, you understand that my entire life has been challenged Every single thing I've ever done has been a challenge,, because I was never prepared to do it because I didn't know how to do. If I had known how to do what it would have already done it. I didn't know how to do it, but I never allowed that to stop me from pursuing it.[01:07:37] So the pursuit of it was key. The pursuit of it was key and it revealed itself to me, pursuit of it was key and it revealed itself to me. And in the revelation of it, I changed. So in the revelation of it, I changed. It's [01:08:00] not because I changed it's because it changed me. Hmm, every single one of you have to understand that it's not about you.[01:08:10] It's not about what you know how to do. It's not about anything you are prepared to do. It's about opening your heart and mind to it, to understand it will work. It's wondrous way on you. When you make yourself available, it's making yourself available. It's like saying to Sharon, Sharon I'm here, I'm yours.[01:08:37] Teach me, and then doing what you're being taught to do. And as you do what you're being taught to do, it's going to speak to you. And it's going to say things to you. Nobody's ever said to you before, hear me you're in for a shock [01:09:00] because the world isn't what you think it is. Hmm, the experience. Isn't what you believe it to be.[01:09:08] The opportunity is nowhere even close to what you imagine. It will be. All of this is an exercise that takes you beyond who you are to discover who you potentially can rise to be speaking to you. Come play with me, come play with me, come play with me. And suddenly you say, Oh my God, how come I never seen that before you follow me?[01:09:45] It's so extraordinary. And you have this experience over and over and over and over again. I know you do. I know you do because you pursue it. In exactly the same way as that. I have you pursue it with [01:10:00] everything you've got. And when you don't, you pay the price for not having pursued it with everything you've got, then something happens, something happens, it's a revelation.[01:10:13] And that revelation is an exquisite and you can then turn to every single person around you and say, Oh my God, you'll never believe what just happened. Welcome. And there [01:10:26] Sharon: [01:10:26] it is, Michael, I'm going to ask you this question. You talk about legacy a lot, and I believe we're here to inspire ourselves. How are you going towards fulfilling what you believe your legacy potentially could be?[01:10:43] Michael: [01:10:43] Well, what can I say? We already have every human being has a legacy. Um, it's right there right now. Um, you can't avoid it. You can't ignore it. Um, every [01:11:00] single one of us has a legacy and that legacy is either failure, success beyond success, beyond belief. Um, it's in so many different ways and shapes and forms, but every one of us have a legacy.[01:11:15] Um, mine is what I ultimately end up having done. And I don't know yet what that is. I [01:11:29] Sharon: [01:11:29] love it. [01:11:30] Michael: [01:11:30] You understand? I have absolutely no idea yet actually is. Do you realize that just in this conversation, my legacy could have been altered to a degree beyond anything I ever imagined it's possible to become.[01:11:51] That's how I envisioned in view my life. I love that every single day is [01:12:00] contributing to my legacy and I have no idea, nah, everything that I've done with all the people that I've moved with, ever, all the moving and shaking and making and breaking all of that step one would have to say, well, Gerber, you certainly certainly must have a clearer idea about your legacy than most of us.[01:12:27] And I'd say not. [01:12:31] Sharon: [01:12:31] I love it. [01:12:34] Michael: [01:12:34] I know the day I done the day, there will be one. Yeah. I just don't know what it is. And it's as exciting to me right here. Right now at this moment. To think about that as it was the very first day I began on this band. [01:12:59] Sharon: [01:12:59] Yeah. [01:13:00] Just wonderful. I am driven a lot by thinking about when I'm way too old to do anything about it.[01:13:11] I want to make sure I look back and I did it, whatever that brave thing is, whatever that inspiring thing is when it's too late, I don't want to be left with all those moments that I could have embraced. And I turned away for ease or comfort. That's what challenge means to me to do the thing that's going to lift me.[01:13:31] So when I, in that moment, when I take my last breath and I made the person, I could have been it's may the gap isn't there. That's what drives me, Michael, that's me being my fullest truest self in my last breath. The could of been is who I am. I want that to be the same thing. [01:13:50] Michael: [01:13:50] I got it. And God bless. And may your wish your will come to realization.[01:14:00] [01:14:00] But you have no idea what that's going to look like. Absolutely none. Thank God. [01:14:09] Sharon: [01:14:09] Yes. [01:14:10] Michael: [01:14:10] Thank God you have absolutely no idea what that's going to look like. It's being born at this very moment. [01:14:17] Sharon: [01:14:17] It is [01:14:17] Michael: [01:14:17] at this very moment. It's being born so [01:14:25] Sharon: [01:14:25] wonderful. You're a wonderful human being, your energy and your sparkle and your generosity.[01:14:34] Is it something you've cultivated or is it just how you came out? So it [01:14:40] Michael: [01:14:40] just showed up. So what can I get? And it's been a delight. Thank you for having me here. Um, thank you for the conversation. Thank you for the honor of your pursuit of the impossible, utilizing my work to the degree that you have and going beyond my work [01:15:00] to touch the lives of thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of people, may you be blessed, um, in the most, absolutely phenomenal way possible for what you've done and what you're about to do.[01:15:15] I've loved it. [01:15:15] Sharon: [01:15:15] Here's the same for you. I loved it as well. Michael, where would you like people to get in touch with you and to discover more of your work? You mentioned radical you, can you share a little bit about where we can find that and what we can expect? [01:15:28] Michael: [01:15:28] Just come to Michael E, Gerber.com email@example.com.[01:15:33] And just say, Hey, I heard you speak to Sharon. I just heard you talk about all these wonderful things. And we'd just love to do with love, to do with love to do it. And I know that Sharon will find a way to make it happen. And if she doesn't, I will say [01:15:54] Sharon: [01:15:54] exactly right. [01:15:56] Michael: [01:15:56] They've got that promise on the table.[01:15:58] Um, just let's leave [01:16:00] it at that. And we'll find many, many ways to, um, tell your world and world your tilt.[01:16:14] Sharon: [01:16:14] Thanks so much, Michael. [01:17:00]
90 minutes | Apr 7, 2021
The Making of An Amazon Queen | #PERSPECTIVES with Sophie Howard
KEY TOPICS AND TIME STAMPS: 00:05:15 How Sophie Started with AmazonHow and why Sophie chose Amazon as her online business partner and her life before Amazon wasn’t sustaining or fulfilling her. 00:08:01 Online marketing optionsSophie’s take on affiliate marketing and view of online marketing methods.Who can you trust on line? We discuss the ups and downs of online platforms 00:11:26 Product SelectionWe unpack ideas on product selection for successSophie explains her thinking around what makes a great product 00:11:45 Why you should avoid the ‘most popular’ productsWhy it’s important not to ‘follow the mob’ when choosing productsWhat kind of thinking should you adopt when choosing a product 00:15:36 Why you should never tell anyone what Amazon products you have sold that have made millions of dollars.Sophie talks about her experiences with copycats and why you should stay low key about your products.How she has launched over a thousand different products How to keep away from the competition and embrace the low competition product niche 00:22:20 How she made $33,000 in a day in salesWorking full time Sophie’s Amazon business started to take off.When did she decide to skip the full-time job?Do you have a business or a product?00:23:01 Daring to dream bigMaking the move from full time work into the business you loveTaking risks, having courage 00:29:11 Adapting The E-Myth approach in businessHow The E-Myth massively changed Sharon’s’ business The Coaching Institute00:30:53 Trade MarketsSearching outside of China for products around the world00:33:14 Intellectual property and creating supplier relationships.00:37:41 Learning from our environmentHow what can you bring to your business success from previous experiences is important -what you should pay attention to00:43:12 Selling the businessWhen you get a million dollars for your online business where and how do you live? 00:45:36 Self careThe importance of managing self-care, balancing life and familyHandling and tolerating ambiguity and uncertainty to figure our way through it and to give ourselves the time and the space to develop the skills in the ambiguity is how we grow.00:54:43 Starting out on Amazonwhat kind of time would you need to set aside? What would your thinking need to be?
2 minutes | Apr 6, 2021
The Making of An Amazon Queen (Trailer) | #PERSPECTIVES with Sophie Howard
I’m so pleased to introduce you to my latest guest, the Queen of Amazon, Sophie Howard. I have been fascinated for some time about how well Amazon does as you all know it's growing at a tremendous rate. We discover in the podcast that it's grown by 44% in the last 12 months during these very interesting and challenging times. Sophie has an interesting story to tell. In 2014 she started learning about Amazon – at this time she had a full-time job, two children and a brand-new baby and was trying to figure out how to do all this and make it work and be wonderful. She wasn’t really clear on her pathway, but she knew she wanted to work from home and have flexibility. We have a great conversation in this episode about how she came to Amazon which has been an amazing success for her including the sale of a couple of Amazon businesses, one sold after 18 months for a million dollars! It's a really wonderful and inspiring story and Sophie talks us through how she approached building her business to a point now where she lives her dream life and runs a training program to train others to do the same.
2 minutes | Apr 6, 2021
The Man Behind The Myth (Trailer) | #PERSPECTIVES with Michael Gerber
If you are in business, you no doubt have heard of the amazing book, The E-Myth. The E-Myth” has been a New York Times mega-bestseller, for two consecutive decades. The Wall Street Journal named The E-Myth the #1 business book of all time and he is the man Inc. magazine named "the World's #1 Small Business Guru’ for his “E-Myth’ series of books which include 19 books tailored for industry specific business professionals. 16 years ago I met the famous author and business thought leader Michael E Gerber in a room of 20 business owners, one of us asked questions, and got chatting with him. That would have been me. I took the opportunity to speak to this visionary and he was awesome! He gave me fabulous advice that I acted on and have been acting on, all these years. Fast forward to today - when I reached out for him to be on my podcast, he readily agreed. A wonderful conversation took place and I am so excited to share it with you. If you want to learn more about how I have established my successful business, by using his incredible model – download this latest conversation and be inspired by this business legend. #michaelgerber #theemyth #business #smallbusiness
48 minutes | Mar 24, 2021
How To Be An Adult In Relationships | #PERSPECTIVES with Sharon Pearson and David Richo
Perspectives Podcast - David Richo (Full Episode) Show NotesGloria Steinem said, too many people are looking for the right person instead of trying to be the right person. My guest today is Dr. David Richo is a renowned psychotherapist he's author of 20 books. And he's been working in this field for 50 years and still practicing. He is a beautiful human being. You're going to love this conversation. His work emphasizes the benefits of mindfulness, loving-kindness and personal growth. And in this episode, we are going to discuss the book that I have just loved, which is ‘How to be an Adult in Relationships’.We're going to talk about the five A’s - attention, acceptance, action, appreciation and allowing and how they are the key to true intimacy.I have read the book and really enjoyed it. My husband and I are working together through the exercises in the book right now and really approaching it mindfully and very slowly. We are taking big pauses and making sure that we're are not bringing what we might've done before we read the book, to create some new levels of intimacy.We've been married for 28 years and I don't think this process comes naturally to people necessarily. I think there's so much debris piled on top of us over the years that whatever part of our spirit or a soul had access to this early can get buried. What I love about David Richo’s book is how he invites the spiritual journey as well as the therapeutic journey. In this podcast we have delved into:The mindfulness journey and the pathway to intimacyHow David Richo found Buddhism and the impact it had on his work as an introduction to something spiritual in a new way.How we advance on our spiritual journey toward being a person of integrity and love and how through mindfulness you can turn that reflection inwards and start to become an adult in the relationship. And that's the pathway to intimacy. We speak about the journey that invites us to reflect within and how that journey is so integral to the message in the book, teaching us to become aware of our needs first and then our fears of having them fulfilled, instead of pushing these feelings aside. The irony that informs so many relationships - we look like we're really wanting intimacy, but at the same time, we could be fearing that same intimacy because of what it entails, which is becoming vulnerable, letting ourselves be seen as we really are. With all our warts and wounds. We focus on The 5 A’s – ‘How to be an Adult in Relationships’ explores five hallmarks of mindful loving and how they play a key role in our relationships – from our childhood with our parents, through to our intimate partners: Attention to the present moment; observing, listening, and noticing all the feelings at play in our relationshipsAcceptance, acceptance of ourselves and others just as we areAppreciation, of all our gifts, our limits, our longing and our poignant human predicamentAffection, shown through holding and touching in respectful ways.Allowing, life and love to be just as they are, with all their ecstasy and ache, without trying to take control. How to manage when you don’t receive the 5 A’s in childhood – letting go of the anger, the healthy path out of childhood into adulthood. How you know you are ready to be in a relationship?Being ready is becoming an adult first. Then you can have an adult relationship one in which there is love. To do your own personal work to get you to be the best partner you can be. That's how you know that you have a real commitment, not the wedding ring or the big day. Drama thrives on adrenaline. Whereas the true intimacy thrives on oxytocin, our hormone of closeness. If you are keeping things at a fever pitch and it's always a big drama going on. There's always a big conflict, which can't be worked out. And when you're doing that, you might ask yourself, do I really want closeness or do I, or what am I actually just looking for? The See Model – the way to ask yourself and analyse what is getting you so upset or reactive? Using the acronym SEE – is it a shadow – is it my ego – is it from early life.Ego is one of the most vicious enemies of intimacy - ego, and how that affects relationships. The ego fears that you won't be acknowledged as you need to be, to the rest of the world but it's also the fear that you won't be able to handle not being given the special treatment that you think you deserve. We discuss the practices that can help you get out of the ‘solo act of ego’ in relationships. Anger is a strong energy -instead of blaming in anger, where can we go to within ourselves to achieve a healthy response? Grief and anger, learning to work within and avoid being stuck in anger. The Heroes Journey to RedemptionDavid and I both love the mythological journey, the hero's journey to redemption. And I see the elements of this in the book by design strongly. The hero’s journey starts out externally and then the moment when the hero is truly transformed is when they realize that which they sought outside was always within them.How to be an Adult in Relationships sets out a beautiful mythological heroes journey we can learn from and invites us to reflect and enhance our relationships.
1 minutes | Mar 23, 2021
How To Be An Adult In Relationships | #PERSPECTIVES (Trailer) With David Richo
You're going to love this conversation. He is a beautiful human being. This is a preview of the next episode of #Perspectives Podcast with David has been working in this field for 50 years and still practicing. His work emphasizes the benefits of mindfulness, loving kindness and personal growth. And in this episode, we are going to discuss his book “How to be an adult in relationships – the five keys to mindful loving” that I have just loved. We are going to dig into the five A's – attention, acceptance, action, appreciation and allowing - the hallmarks of mindful loving and how they are the key to true intimacy. The full episode will be released, tomorrow 2pm AED! Stay tune...
94 minutes | Mar 10, 2021
Living A Resilient Life | #PERSPECTIVES with Sharon Pearson and Patrick Lindsay
A conversation with Australia literary hero, Patrick Lindsay. I really trust you enjoy this podcast and this conversation with Patrick Lindsay. He is a phenomenal human being and a very compassionate man. I'm a big fan of his work and researching this podcast, getting to know his work and getting to know him has been a real joy. Patrick Lindsey has had a long career in print and television journalism both here and overseas. He's been a TV presenter, a producer, film maker and a writer, and he's become one of Australia's leading non-fiction authors publishing over 21 non-fiction books. He is a professional observer who writes on topics that are close especially to Australians and New Zealanders and around the world. He shares inspiring messages of wisdom through his motivational series that he wrote for his grandchildren. And he reminds us that within us we have the power to change our lives for the better - he’s definitely the eternal optimist. He's doing amazing work. He's has a new movie coming out shortly, the home front, which is a film looking at what we can do to support returned serviceman. During the podcast we talked about going to Gallipoli and Kokoda and we look at those wars and those campaigns, we talk about the philosophy of war and what it means for us today and the fortune we have today, which is almost self-evident. We do a little bit of Trump ranting, which is always good for a podcast. We look at politics and the effects of social media on it. We touch on that. We talk about this, the way he thinks and how he approaches things. I was in a cafe, I think it was only yesterday and I was crying, reading his book, The Spirit of Gallipoli. It overwhelmed me and I was surprised at how many people didn’t know the story. And there are so many stories to speak of that we didn't get to cover in the podcast as much as I'd like. So I do recommend that you go and read this book. I appreciate the cynicism and the questions we asked today about the folio of war and the folly of sacrificing ourselves in another land for a piece of land that we've never heard of before. And in no way, is that to disparage or take anything away from soldiers who volunteer to go and support and defend our nation and the places that need them. I’m really just so honoured that they do that for us every single day. Our discussions raised the question about drafting, if that would be introduced again today. How would we be? What would we say? What would we do? How would we look at it? What would social media say? What new device would be created? Who would go? Would women go? Once a soldier said it was your national duty. When I think about how few people know the story of Gallipoli today, and know what it meant for those diggers, what they lost and what they did and what they sacrificed and what they had to do, it’s heartbreaking. All the rules about what we believe about institutions and what they can ask of us now has changed so radically from this a hundred years ago. Interesting questions. I do love interesting perspectives. And this podcast to me at its heart, it's about different ways of thinking. I just enjoyed so much chatting with him and I trust you get some value out of meeting and getting up close with Patrick Lindsey. Highlights include: In the podcast we will talk about: Behind the creative process So many of you will be pleased to hear more about the behind the scenes of his creative process and what inspires him. He looks at his life as a continuing journey, an exploration and a belief that it is never too late, there is always something to learn. Bouncing back, be a twig His latest book is called Be Resilient and speak to a world figuring out a way of enduring and then bouncing back post COVID. Patrick thinks the analogy for being resilient is ‘being a twig’ , A green, healthy twig that that can blow in the winds and always bounce back. Because to be resilient you have to have a healthy mind, a healthy body, you know, a healthy spirit kind of thing, a sound, one of those. He refers to the great stoics and ancient Greek and Roman philosophers. Resilience and a sense of duty in today’s world We talk about the sense of duty during the past world wars and discuss how this has changed in today’s age and the plight of the modern veteran and how Patrick has come to be inspired by so many stories are of stoicism and a resilience, of personal sacrifice and of bravery. Strategy and leadership in war We explored the role of leadership in war, the structured Japanese, the fierce training of the Australians and their adaptability and the wonderful lessons learned from the guys who just ‘stepped into the role of leader. And how after war they went back into society and resumed their lives - they didn't then say, okay, I've just spent five years being a warrior and how with the help of their mates they were able to survive. The role of authorities and support for returned soldiers There is a point of view of modern veterans, they feel an adversarial relationship between them and the structures that support them - having been sent away, having been damaged, having comeback with physical and mental issues and things like that, Patrick expresses his view on this and the toll of mental illness on the returned service man and the danger of unresolved issues. The Spirit of Gallipoli, Churchill and the front line We talk about the bravery of great leaders in war and the sacrifice of the soldiers. The change in journalism from legacy voice – to 10,000 opinions. You can never go back to an innocent time when legacy media decided the message back in the day, when you were a journalist, you were part of legacy media, you were the voice. Now there's 10,000 other voices, right behind yours, giving a contrary message. And none of them agree. We don't even agree on the facts now then learn how to a great, how to get to a point of, we don't even do with the fixed. Be resilient and thrive – rational thinking Patrick talks about his books, Thrive, the most recent was is inspired by having optimistic messages that are worthwhile. We explore rational thinking. Sometimes we need to take a critical look at it. Have we simply adapted another's viewpoint? Is that really driving our thinking? Have we rushed to a conclusion? Don't treat all thoughts equally.
5 minutes | Mar 9, 2021
Living A Resilient Life (Trailer) | #PERSPECTIVES with Sharon Pearson and Patrick Lindsay
I really trust you enjoy this podcast and this conversation with Patrick Lindsay. He is a phenomenal human being and a very compassionate man. I'm a big fan of his work and researching this podcast, getting to know his work and getting to know him has been a real joy.
33 minutes | Feb 24, 2021
"This One Thing You NEVER Change" Lessons From Successful Entrepreneurs (Part 2) | #PERSPECTIVES with Sharon Pearson
I had been following The Growth Faculty and Founder Karen for years, so I was thrilled to finally get to chat with her and pick her brains for the strategies that have allowed the company to thrive, even through changing times.We open up this episode by talking about how we both handled having to change our business models radically.As some of you would know, I’m very grateful and proud of The Coaching Institute’s four-day transition online. After early indicators of how the market was going to shift, including, of course, how only half the room in our New Castle event showed up, we had to forgo face-to-face training. Everyone had to do it, if you wanted to stay afloat.As mentioned above, the evolution, if you will, for Karen and co began with postponing their largest event yet to February 2021. “I was on the phone every day to venues. I could see the impacts. I could see it's like a tsunami coming ahead, but in slow motion,” Karen describes. “We just need to deliver this event. And then we can deal with COVID after. But... that did not happen.” After doing so and unfortunately having to let a lot of her team go, it felt like a steep downhill battle. “We were staring down the barrel of 2020, not an event in sight…2020, it was going to be our year. 10 years of hard work just disappearing, you know, just crumbling in front of you.” We then talked what changed. In two simple words: mindset & perspective. Karen explains that she was initially fixated on the question: How do we survive and make it to February 2021? (This was March 2020.) “We’d go into work every day, optimistic that we can control the things around us. You know, the entrepreneurial mindset. And then punches – left, right and centre. You walk into, well, actually there's a lot more things out of our control.” Upon this realisation, it was then about flipping the question to: How do we build a business that does not have to rely on this event in February 2021, no matter what happens and what are we in control of? It was about tapping into what they had. Which was (a) an incredible network and community of CEOs and business leaders that trusted them; and (b) their (existing) digital platform, that Karen describes what was once a bit of an “unloved child”. First, their network. “We went out to the CEOs and business leaders and we said, right, what do you need to know right now? What is going to help you get you through?... How can we help you? How can you help us?” They took part in and hosted many CEO roundtables, and Karen gave a shout out to the advice and guidance she got from Mark Bonchek and Jim Collins. (This is why you should always aim to be in the smallest room.) By April, they rocked their first virtual, ticketed event with Jim. A huge win for The Growth Faculty was that like with TCI, their international audience expanded – no geographically live events equals no geographical limitations. When I asked about what successfully launching this first event was like, I love what Karen shared: that it was all about iteration after iteration. They knew they still had a long way to go about, so it was all about figuring out what works and what doesn’t – or as I like to say, testing and measuring. For them and many of us, the biggest challenge to being competitive was the free content posted everywhere throughout the virtual world – everywhere. “But when it's free content is a different style of delivery. So we were relieved. We stuck with what we do best and deliver the best content. So we were really grateful for that and we thought, okay, there's something in this.” Then they took things up another notch…membership subscriptions. (And spoiler alert – they got an outstanding result that Karen reveals in the episode!) Karen shares that interestingly, she hired a head of digital innovation back in mid 2019 who helped set up their membership platform. “Prior to COVID, it was that project waiting to be worked on. COVID forced the hand where you got no choice and thank God we had this all set up.” Little did they know that it would soon become the game-changer for the business. “I've always had this thought about membership in the way that I would love to include all my events in a membership. But in the live event situation, every single event is so different. Then all of a sudden we've got these kind of virtual events and I'm like, you can control the costs. Let's go. I know what I'm up for.” For me, necessity is the mother of invention. This strategy worked unbelievably well for everyone in our space. Now it is The Growth Faculty’s business model moving forward, and I love that. That’s got sustainability. What’s even better is that Karen and her team are not undoing the knowledge she’s built over the years. It’s not a start-up mindset. What has helped businesses like Karen’s and The Coaching Institute successfully pivot is the long-term thinking. The initial scramble is inevitable. But the scramble is not sustainable. I see too many business owners still doing the scramble. You’ve got to build the foundations of the new business (model). Karen agrees that substantial changes have to be taken on early, because as is becoming clearer, “there is no going back.” Back to the BeginningAfter that quick dive into how we’ve been in the past 12 months, I invited Karen to return to the beginning to satisfy my curiosity on how it all began with The Growth Faculty. After university in the early 90’s, Karen travelled across the globe to the UK and landed her first event management job with her friend who was bringing Anthony Robbins (yes, that’s the one and only Tony Robbins) to London for the very first time. In the sparse group of three, she was involved in every aspect of making it happen, and describes it as “insane, but fun”. When she eventually returned to home-base (Sydney), Karen settled into events management for the Certified Practising Accountants Association (CPA). She describes that this was the key to her learning the art of pulling programs and industries she knew nothing about together. While her time in London taught her the logistical side of event management, this was the other half, the content aspect. Tying it back to becoming an entrepreneur, she says she always had the urge to start her own business; driven by wanting to “design her own life”, “replace her job” and so she “doesn’t have to answer to anybody” – she says with tongue-in-cheek. We laughed that that’s indeed what we believed we were in for. Our conversation is continued in the next episode of the podcast, where we dive into Karen’s entrepreneurial building phase, and what that reality was like for her. If you love learning about how successful businesses do their thing, this is the podcast for you. I trust you find inspiration. x
33 minutes | Feb 17, 2021
"This One Thing You NEVER Change" Lessons From Successful Entrepreneurs (Part 1) | #PERSPECTIVES with Sharon Pearson
I had been following The Growth Faculty and Founder Karen for years, so I was thrilled to finally get to chat with her and pick her brains for the strategies that have allowed the company to thrive, even through changing times.We open up this episode by talking about how we both handled having to change our business models radically. As some of you would know, I’m very grateful and proud of The Coaching Institute’s four-day transition online. After early indicators of how the market was going to shift, including, of course, how only half the room in our New Castle event showed up, we had to forgo face-to-face training. Everyone had to do it, if you wanted to stay afloat.As mentioned above, the evolution, if you will, for Karen and co began with postponing their largest event yet to February 2021. “I was on the phone every day to venues. I could see the impacts. I could see it's like a tsunami coming ahead, but in slow motion,” Karen describes. “We just need to deliver this event. And then we can deal with COVID after. But... that did not happen.” After doing so and unfortunately having to let a lot of her team go, it felt like a steep downhill battle. “We were staring down the barrel of 2020, not an event in sight…2020, it was going to be our year. 10 years of hard work just disappearing, you know, just crumbling in front of you.” We then talked what changed. In two simple words: mindset & perspective. Karen explains that she was initially fixated on the question: How do we survive and make it to February 2021? (This was March 2020.) “We’d go into work every day, optimistic that we can control the things around us. You know, the entrepreneurial mindset. And then punches – left, right and centre. You walk into, well, actually there's a lot more things out of our control.” Upon this realisation, it was then about flipping the question to: How do we build a business that does not have to rely on this event in February 2021, no matter what happens and what are we in control of? It was about tapping into what they had. Which was (a) an incredible network and community of CEOs and business leaders that trusted them; and (b) their (existing) digital platform, that Karen describes what was once a bit of an “unloved child”. First, their network. “We went out to the CEOs and business leaders and we said, right, what do you need to know right now? What is going to help you get you through?... How can we help you? How can you help us?” They took part in and hosted many CEO roundtables, and Karen gave a shout out to the advice and guidance she got from Mark Bonchek and Jim Collins. (This is why you should always aim to be in the smallest room.) By April, they rocked their first virtual, ticketed event with Jim. A huge win for The Growth Faculty was that like with TCI, their international audience expanded – no geographically live events equals no geographical limitations. When I asked about what successfully launching this first event was like, I love what Karen shared: that it was all about iteration after iteration. They knew they still had a long way to go about, so it was all about figuring out what works and what doesn’t – or as I like to say, testing and measuring. For them and many of us, the biggest challenge to being competitive was the free content posted everywhere throughout the virtual world – everywhere. “But when it's free content is a different style of delivery. So we were relieved. We stuck with what we do best and deliver the best content. So we were really grateful for that and we thought, okay, there's something in this.” Then they took things up another notch…membership subscriptions. (And spoiler alert – they got an outstanding result that Karen reveals in the episode!) Karen shares that interestingly, she hired a head of digital innovation back in mid 2019 who helped set up their membership platform. “Prior to COVID, it was that project waiting to be worked on. COVID forced the hand where you got no choice and thank God we had this all set up.” Little did they know that it would soon become the game-changer for the business. “I've always had this thought about membership in the way that I would love to include all my events in a membership. But in the live event situation, every single event is so different. Then all of a sudden we've got these kind of virtual events and I'm like, you can control the costs. Let's go. I know what I'm up for.” For me, necessity is the mother of invention. This strategy worked unbelievably well for everyone in our space. Now it is The Growth Faculty’s business model moving forward, and I love that. That’s got sustainability. What’s even better is that Karen and her team are not undoing the knowledge she’s built over the years. It’s not a start-up mindset. What has helped businesses like Karen’s and The Coaching Institute successfully pivot is the long-term thinking. The initial scramble is inevitable. But the scramble is not sustainable. I see too many business owners still doing the scramble. You’ve got to build the foundations of the new business (model). Karen agrees that substantial changes have to be taken on early, because as is becoming clearer, “there is no going back.” Back to the Beginning After that quick dive into how we’ve been in the past 12 months, I invited Karen to return to the beginning to satisfy my curiosity on how it all began with The Growth Faculty. After university in the early 90’s, Karen travelled across the globe to the UK and landed her first event management job with her friend who was bringing Anthony Robbins (yes, that’s the one and only Tony Robbins) to London for the very first time. In the sparse group of three, she was involved in every aspect of making it happen, and describes it as “insane, but fun”. When she eventually returned to home-base (Sydney), Karen settled into events management for the Certified Practising Accountants Association (CPA). She describes that this was the key to her learning the art of pulling programs and industries she knew nothing about together. While her time in London taught her the logistical side of event management, this was the other half, the content aspect. Tying it back to becoming an entrepreneur, she says she always had the urge to start her own business; driven by wanting to “design her own life”, “replace her job” and so she “doesn’t have to answer to anybody” – she says with tongue-in-cheek. We laughed that that’s indeed what we believed we were in for. Our conversation is continued in the next episode of the podcast, where we dive into Karen’s entrepreneurial building phase, and what that reality was like for her. If you love learning about how successful businesses do their thing, this is the podcast for you. I trust you find inspiration. x
35 minutes | Feb 3, 2021
Your Best Year Yet: Part II || #Perspectives with Sharon Pearson and Matt Lavars
Matt: I'd love to ask you about your, your, your dream book that you have, that you'd set up every single year, which is absolutely beautiful that I do not have, that I will be getting after this random bits of paper, we'll have notes and paper and I stick things up. [00:01:18] Sharon: Stop the stress levels. Be gone. You can try it, come over. So I have a dream book. Yup. I have, uh, Good ideas and innovations book. Yeah. And I have my daily diary. Yep. So I like paper because then I like to write just the little special, quirky things that have happened on the day. So today I will just write in the podcast and a couple of funny things on with Matt tried to enjoy myself in that. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. And then I have an innovations book. Yep. And then I have my let's get for real about the yearbook. So this takes me probably 14, 20 hours over a month and a half. I've been thinking about it since last November. So I usually kick into thinking about it in November. How's the year going? How have I shown up this year? Yeah. What am I pleased with? What have I brought to life or experienced? Um, where do I feel? Perhaps? I didn't. Bring all of me. And then I start and I still haven't worked out when we need to go into themes, but then I try to work out my theme for the next year. So every year for 17, 18 years, I've had a theme for the year. Just a single word or a couple of words. Yeah. So one year it was for example, health. That's turned up a couple of times and now the year it was fierceness. Um, and now the year was adventure. The worst theme ever. I chose John and I chose the thing one year of, um, consolidation. We thought we'd consolidate our debts, spent that you're in investments that we did. And sometimes one theme last for two years, I like emotional truth. It really suits me, really reflect you on who am I? Who am I being? How am I showing up? Am I being true to this moment? Am I being present to this moment? It asks a lot of me. And a lot of this comes from mindfulness. Yeah. Yeah. The beauty of mindfulness. It's not. Panacea mindfulness does not fix everything, but in terms of being, I think you're working on presence being present. That's your thing for the year being present to the moment that's being mindful. It's noticing this moment and not trying to change the moment. Think about another moment, thinking about where you go to change. As a result of this moment, I was with a friend yesterday and she said sometimes when she's sitting outside and she's grounding, now you sit outside with that shoes on and you're grounding. And she has a little time. What would she use to do is be present to the moment, be mindful of the moment, but recently she's noticed it's become. What am I going to do? And that's not mindfulness. And I think that's what you're wanting to experience this year. It's being present to what is. [00:04:27] Matt: Yeah. Yes. It's interesting how I think the first thing that I learned when I got into personal development, uh, about 10 years ago was mindfulness. And I've added on so much more competency in so many other areas, but this year I just feel like I just need to go back to yeah. That mindfulness it's because it's the foundation of everything. Like you said, it doesn't fix everything, but I think that without it it's much harder to progress. [00:04:51] Sharon: Well, I dunno. Do you relate to this? I am going back to mindfulness now, two decades on. And I probably [00:05:00] did it again about 10 years ago because I ran really hard for my goals. I was saying to my friend yesterday, you know, I'm really good at hitting the target, give me a goal. I'm going for it. I'm going to really work hard to do what needs to be done to have that thing, be it a sales result or something I've mastered this company, whatever it is just I'm good at going for the target. Yeah. But in that I sometimes lose me. And so it's almost like I'm still going for Tireds and it's not, but it's not, instead of, I want to notice me in this moment. Yeah. As I go for the time. So is that what you're noticing? Very much [00:05:38] Matt: And I, and I talk about this in the school, a lot that a theme needs to be a match for where we are in our journey and our goals. And the first theme that I said was discipline. And that was when we had a conversation where I said, I wanted to be a trainer here. And you said, well, you know, I think the attitude was kind of like everyone says that, which, which now I completely understand. [00:06:00] And you said bridge the gap between who you are in real life and who you are, who you need to be on stage. Which was the beginning of a journey of saying, okay, well, I can't just talk about these ideas. I need to make them a reality. When at that time I wasn't really learning on a regular basis. I wasn't learning every day, like how I learn now. And I wasn't feeding in everything that I needed to fit in. You know, every everyone's busy, everyone's got something. [00:06:26] Matt: Towards the style of like dicking around probably. Yeah. Versus. Waking up. I started waking up every morning and I would do study for at least an hour, maybe two hours. And I pushed through a lot. And I think that without that year, I don't think that I would be here now as a trainer because I would have fallen short on, on, I remember the first day when I said gave me a training on my own. Give me a, no, I can do it. It wasn't just a fluffy, which I see some people do. Yeah, I'm ready. It's like, you're not ready. Yeah. Yeah, but I put it in the Senate recently. Totally. I put in so much effort. And so now I'm still putting in effort. But it's a different kind of effort. It's like, it's more of a, I feel as a speaker and as a trainer, I'm more like maintaining and improving little ways and being inspired by ideas. And I find that the thing that helps me the most is to be more emotionally connected to myself and the people around me and that I can really be that demonstration. But I think if I set that theme. 10 years ago, it wouldn't work. My theme was present. Annoyed me. [00:06:25] Sharon: It was stuff that wasn't going to move you [00:07:33] Matt: Why aren't you doing the work? Well, I'm cause I'm meditating. " [00:07:36] Sharon: I want to be mindful to the moment. Well, good for you that doesn't get you on the stage. So you've got to have the hard skills with the soft skills. And I think a lot of this, the way I look at it as a bit of backfilling. So what are the hard skills that I can learn? So I enrolled in a program, get good at a skill studying online. Studying online course, whatever it is. And then, okay, so I'm bringing my being to it, but what being. Am I missing and can I now, cause I got the hard skill. Can I stop bringing more subtlety, nuance aspects and angles of myself that I hadn't really explored before? Because I'm now confident enough in the competence to explore more of me. And I think that's a great way to do it the other way around. I struggle a little bit. I need to have the tiger. I need the hard target. And then I backfill with the beingness. So my future self is a hard target. Then I backfill it over the years with who? My beingness. So I have my theme and I'm playing with creativity for 2021, uh, emotional truth again, which I really like. I have pain. Oh, I should show you. I've gotten the here. I've just had the best time I did this wild Emile. I'm just so happy with. Yeah, but [00:08:42] Matt: You're actually really good. Thank you really good at painting. Just remove that from the photos. [00:08:47] Sharon: Really good. I really enjoy you. Won't remember I said that. No, exactly. Sorry. I love, uh, so it could be creativity and martial truth. It could be, honoring self, which I think is also a reflection of mindfulness and being present to the moment and bringing all of me. So I'm playing with those things, but I usually have the theme first, so that's been weird for me cause I've been working on it for three months, two months haven't landed. Right. Then I work on a kind of a purse purpose statement. So I Remi see, hear, feel, or know that the purpose of my life is. And it could be for example, to be a loving and passionate woman or for me it's to be now to be my true self and to explore how to express that. So that's unbelieving. That's my purpose. It is most of our purposes. Uh, I never have a purpose to be happy. That is a doing, not a being, there's a difference. So I play with that for ages. I've landed on this for three years now and it hasn't needed to move. So I'm pretty, I had the first purpose I Sharon see, hear, feel, and know that the purpose of my life has to be a loving and passionate woman who inspires others. Playfully. I had that for 15 years. Loved it. Fantastic. So now my pivots has had a bit of a change, so, and I do that and it doesn't have to tie to the theme necessarily. Cause the themes is exploring different ways of bringing this to life. That's what my purpose does, Matt it's. If I'm being my purpose, which is to be my truest self, and express that with courage and compassion.
51 minutes | Jan 20, 2021
2021, Your Best Year Yet | #Perspectives with Sharon Pearson
0:00 Sharon: Welcome to this for 2021. It's so great that you're joining us. I'm here with the extraordinary Mr. Matt Lavars. 3:00 Matt: So I I'd love to start with the frame that most people think about goals at this time of the year as new year's resolutions. I think that is the most common way to do it. Yeah. So it's the beginning of the year. And I think it's, it's easy to get excited about a goal at the beginning of the year, because you haven't done anything yet. You know, you're in that kind of fantasy world of I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this. [00:04:02] Sharon: I don't know the stats on goal setting, but news resolutions. Most people quit them before the end of the first month. Yeah. The majority of people are more than 50%. Yeah. So, well, first year I think people set new year's resolutions when they're drinking. [00:04:15] No, I'm kidding. But I imagine that it probably has something to do with it. Oh, they're in that state, like you said, a fantasy land where everything's possible and I'm going to be so different this year, instead of figuring out the behind the scenes stuff that we're going to talk about today, that means we stick to it for the whole year and feel even better about it at the end of the year, instead of feeling worse, also a lot of new year's resolutions, which I don't do. [00:05:12] Matt: So one of the things that I find really interesting and especially in today's world is the lack of, um, accepting personal responsibility in just in culture. Uh, there's, there's a culture rising that doesn't agree with personal responsibility. It doesn't make sense to me, but do you think that's a component of why a lot of people don't achieve their goals because there's so many people that think, well, I'm going to, I'm going to drink less. I'm going to eat less. [00:05:52] Sharon: all as we think that we're at the Beck and call of external forces? Yeah. Our news [00:06:00] resolution doesn't have it yet. We don't have any, right. It can be nurtured. You there's nothing nurturing it. There's nothing. Yeah. Fertilizing it, yeah, that metaphor goes a long way. It nothing's, there's no sun on it because the sun's blocked out by all the reasons why we can't. So if the resolution it's easy to make the resolution and then just forget all the reasons why we didn't in the previous year, but if we don't deal with all the reasons why we did in the previous year, we're just heading into the same year. [00:08:10] Sharon: So when we go through my dream book, it's ridiculous, the detail it's pages and pages breaking down and really thinking about what would make this ideal, what needs to shift or stop major. Around physical health. When we get to it, say one of them is to be more flexible. It's just the smallest thing. It's just do five minutes more of yoga. Yeah. My big goal would you believe is when you do downward facing dog is to get my heels on the ground. Because my hamstrings, aren't very flexible. I've been trying for a year. That's great. So I'm still, well, when I started, I had about that angle, so about 45 degrees, really? I feel. Yeah. Yeah. And now I'm halfway through between 45 and ground, whatever that is. [00:08:54] So yeah. That that's like the slowest journey ever, but it's a small thing that I can control and influence. So it is about what we can control, influence what we can persuade ourselves we can impact and be proactive about versus what we're going to externalize. [00:09:09] Matt: One of the things that I love doing the school here is using the metadata omics profiling tool and the profiling tool gives a really interesting insight. [00:09:18] It looks at breaks it down into four major categories for people that don't know about it. Um, and then breaks it down into, I think it's, um, 32 other little sub categories. And one of the traits that I find really interesting, I can't remember the name of the trait, but essentially what it is. It's what you were talking about. [00:09:32] It's the ability to critically look at our strengths and our stretches. Yep. Um, do you think that when that is low. That's going to hinder someone's ability to be able to achieve goals, because when I'm listening to what you're saying, I'm thinking that's great. But I reckon there's a lot of people that just don't think, well, what, what needs to change? [00:10:00] Sharon: the question has to be who do I want to be? It can't be, what do I want? Yeah, it's going to be here too. I want to be, yeah. All my goals that we're going to go through today, you have the goal setting strategy is based on who do I, who am I going to be? [00:10:13] And I've been doing definitely two decades. So there's been, you know, what is it they say, if you want to fly from here to Hawaii. Not that I would right now, but if I was, you just need to be 2%, of course, in your arriving in the Atlantic or somewhere bizarre. Right. So it's just the 2%, each moment just adjusting each year. [00:10:33] So over two decades, if I adjust me by 2%, if I grow in an error by 2% a year. Yeah. That compounds. That's a massive amount of change over two decades. Yeah. Rather than use resolution, which is it's got to all happen. I'm more into the incremental and just rather than what I want to have, it's who do I want to be? [00:10:52] And then when I decide, and I pretty clear on my future best self, when I'm clear on my future, best self, which I put stacks of time into, then it's about, well, what would I be? What would be expressions of that? And it could be, for example, to be my future self is to continue being great at wealth creation. [00:11:12] What would be an expression of that? And then I figure out, well, it would be to save a little bit of money into the investment account or whatever it is. So the doing or the having can't happen until I'm clear on. Who I need to be or who I want to be or who I'm growing to be. I don't have to get there this year. [00:11:28] It's not a resolution. It's a lifetime. It's a lifestyle. I'm not planning to nail this. This year. I've got a lifetime. I think that's very important. Like there's no place to arrive this year. [00:15:29] One of the things that I wanted to, um, ask you about this is something that I find very, very important for me. And I find it a massive problem in a lot of people, both lives is the inability to face. What is screwed about your life? Well, I see that as like a, it's like it's a cancer in people's mind, just to say, well, say for example, you're really overweight. [00:15:49] And you don't face it. And I watched an interview the other day with, um, I don't know if you like piers Morgan, but I watched an interview with him is an interesting dude.
59 minutes | Dec 9, 2020
Mother Load Part III Live Coaching Session || #Perspectives with Sharon Pearson
Zero: —Sharon introduces Mother Load Part III and tells coaches, “When we're in the coaching session as coaches, the key is knowing how to be fully present beyond any judgment for the client. And I hope you see that in this coaching session, just giving so generously of your presence to them so they can fill the space with their truth.” Calls Sasha “so easy to coach because she literally claimed the truth in just seconds. It was beautiful to be a part of. And so I think you'll get a lot of joy out of this.” Says it’s for anybody “who would get value out of knowing how to reclaim humanity and stepping into being all of who we are as a human being.” —What Sasha is “loving” about the sessions is how Sharon comes in “from a completely different angle” which has been the biggest shift. Wants to go a bit deeper and recover deletions, distortions and generalisations (DDGs) because she has been looking back at her daughter’s early childhood and the memories are “tarnished with me just being a terrible parent.” Has asked friends and family for evidence of how she was and keeps coming back to “I was a shouty mom. I was, you know, I didn't nurture her enough. And all of these self judgements are still coming in.” —Sasha can now look at her daughter “without the constant lens of guilt. I'm able to look at this as her. This is her journey and she's not broken where I felt I’d broken her. And so that recovery of her has been wonderful from these sessions.” Is giving her more time and space to not be under pressure to make decisions: “I'm a lot more aware of how much she needs closeness with me.” They have both started singing lessons so now have an aligned interest. —Daughter is more in flow when she’s creative and anxieties come up at night. “Trying to get her into bed at a reasonable hour is a challenge every single night. She hasn't figured out how to turn off.” —Sharon reframes Sasha’s term of “maths deficit” to “maths sucks” and says the nine year old girl has “a great strength in knowing her strengths. I don't see it as deficit … I'm not a clinician. I do know what to do around reframing how we feel perceive and think about what others consider a problem.” 14.12: THE 10 PER CENT FACTOR —Asked where she’d like to be at the end of the session, Sasha says “if we go down the DDGs, it would be that I can look back and experience her childhood in reality, rather than in the frame of I'm a terrible [mother.] —Sharon says “there's some pretty good research showing just recently that your parenting amounts to maybe around 10 per cent of your daughter. There is no research supporting what you’ve been telling yourself.” —Sasha had been thinking it was 100 per cent: “Wow. That’s a relief. So what's the other 90? Cause it's the nature nurture discussion. So it's more nature. Well, what have I been so worried about then? Seriously, 10 per cent. Oh my goodness.” —Sharon says it’s genetics: “Your daughter was going to be who she is and she's going to be different to your other children and nothing you will do say or worry about will change that.” —Sharon: “See to me the way you've been thinking about it, you just love her so much. You love your children so much. You want the best for them. You want to be your best for them. I only hear love in what you've been telling yourself. I hear love and compassion and care. That's how I'd be framing what you've said to yourself over these years.” —Sasha says that is “so true” … “possibly I'm overcompensating for my own childhood, um, which wouldn't be wildly inaccurate.” —Sharon: “Look how beautifully you approach it, the care you bring. I don't know that there's more that could be asked of you in this. I don't know if there's anything more beautiful about parenting than what you're demonstrating. Genetically we are going to be who we're going to be. What a gift. It's mind blowing. It's freeing.” —Sasha says if 90 per cent of her girl is her, “my job in this is to purely and simply support her to be her. Well, if I known this nine and a half years ago, would have made my job a lot easier.” —Sharon says the 10 per cent research should be at the top of the list if everybody had a parenting cheat sheet: So my view, and there's some research to support this is teach your kids, compassion, passion, openness, and warmth. And you’re good to go. Says Sasha is giving her daughter a role model: “Your kid’s going through some stuff she was going to go through. She'll come through it with compassion, passion, warmth, openness, and love. This is her experience. You can role model how to navigate the experience and how to be when she comes through it, but she's going to have it.” —Sasha: “What a simplified purpose that I have is just to model those things and to allow her to have those things and to teach her how to do those things.” 23.92 THE COMPASSION QUESTION —Asked by Sharon if she could demonstrate more compassion for herself, Sasha says she is “learning that in parenting. I think I've got fairly well licked elsewhere” and talks about her other two daughters. —Sharon: “You don’t need compassion when they're going goings easy, darling. No, I'm calling you out. You feeling compassionate towards yourself about how you parent the kids that are easy to parent big whoop.” —Both talk compassion and Sharon invites Sasha to read Neale Walsch’s The Little Soul Story with her daughter. Sharon: “Compassion is the antidote to fear. Compassion is the antidote to the guilt. So literally this is designed for you to learn compassion. Raising kids that are easy to raise is not you learning compassion. It's only when we're tested around the attribute that we get to know how to access the attributes. So there's a huge gift in that.” —Before coaching Sasha used to wonder why she wasn’t more compassionate: “I've recognized that it's because I didn't have compassion for myself.” —Sharon: “Just create a scenario where your daughter's doing her and go to that and realize the service you do to her when you go to compassion, doesn’t even have to be an expressed compassion. It can just be. Holy F in your head, I am being tested to the max right now. This would be that time that I said, I need to feel compassion for me and just go to that space cognitively until you feel it.” —Sasha: “I'm drawing a blank slightly on that. When she's doing her in a way in which I'm finding it challenging, I have the internal dialogue of, Oh my God, we're here again.’ She feels frustrated and impatient: “Why is this every night? Why doesn't she realize that the more that she asks of me and the more that she pushes the more impatient I become?’ That is kind of the judgment that comes. And I've said that to her.” She feels dread: “There's a rejection of her neediness as well. I find that I've given as much as I can give … but she doesn't know when enough is enough. And I think that's what I'd love for her to learn. So when all of that's going on, um, to go back to what you were saying, I then have compassion for myself for the feelings that I've had around the situation. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Perfect. Okay.” —Sharon says Sasha is “doing so much to be a great mum” and “then she's still not blah. And kids, you know, if they're going to have us learn anything, they're going to have us learn I've got to be patient with myself a little and be patient with you. So just feeling all that is normal and to not allow or yourself to feel that or deny that is to deny you. And that can't be compassion.” —Sharon says Sasha is “rejecting” herself quite early in the process and Sasha agrees there’s “definitely” an element of ‘what else do I need to do here?’ —Sharon says at that moment Sasha needs to feel compassion for herself: “I feel like crying. I feel like yelling. I feel like drinking. I feel like yelling and blaming my husband. I feel like doing a whole bunch of things that aren't that functional. Me tapping into all of me right now seems fricking impossible. That's it, that's when compassion's needed … because it's the only thing that will guide you.” —They discuss humanity and that “we are love.” Sharon asks where Sasha’s humanity is for herself. —Sasha: “Great question. You’ve nailed it in the sense that I'm trying so hard that because I'm not seeing the direct result. I then go, ‘Oh well that means that I'm not doing it right, because I'm not getting the right result’, which is a rejection of my humanity, because I'm never going to be able to control all of that. And I'm never going to be able to have all the answers to her or to me. And I think that's what I've been chasing is if I just find out that next thing, maybe that yes, it will make everything fine and dandy.” 35.65: THE PATTERN PLAYING OUT —Sharon notes a lot of people think if they fix one thing (lose a kilo, have another $1000 in the bank) all will be fixed but the solution is compassion. —Sasha agrees she’s trying to find the magic bullet “and I don't believe in the magic bullet” and there’s no compassion in the scenario for anyone. —Sharon: “I guess the invitation is the inside job, rather than looking like you're doing everything on the outside. I don't think there's anything left on the outside that you can attempt.” —Sasha: “The irony of this conversation is mind blowing because I happily explain this to my clients and happily guide them into the internal journey. And, you know, I guess, I guess that's lovely evidence that I'm not perfect. It's actually excellent.” —Sharon “loves” that Sasha just saw herself with humanity: “And if we bring it back to your daughter and you wanting to be there for her and help her navigate this, if you can demonstrate passion and compassion and warmth and openness and love. And all of those states or traits are only required when they're being tested, but you can go to them.” —Sasha says her “warmth and compassion” take a dive when things aren’t great. Says the 10 per cent revelation has helped her clarify that “in some ways that I'm only 10 per cent” of who she is becoming. of her overall early childhood experience. Talks her DDGs again, in the late evening or early morning hours: “I feel like it's almost that last piece of beating upedness that I I've tended to enjoy doing for some bizarre reason. I'd like to look back on that time in a more positive way.” —Sharon: “For what purpose?” —Sasha: “Reality. I’d like to recognize where I was and recognize that I was doing the best.” 42.86 “I’M GOING TO PUSH YOU A LITTLE BIT” —Sharon: “I’m wondering if we can bring the same compassion frame to this. I sense I'm hearing you on something else?” —Sasha needs to sit on it a minute as something comes up. “Right. I'm trying to fix that so that it doesn't have to be there anymore, so that it's cleared. So it's done. Where I'm not taking that compassion is it's linked to, I've broken her. It's that I have compassion for my experience, but not necessarily for my actions, I guess, or my lack of actions.” —Sharon: “Not your actions, it’s the fear that the actions have caused harm. No matter how much you try to not on you. Now, I'm going to push you a little bit. You might've sucked through that whole period. There's every possibility it was sucky parenting. It was the best you could have done at the time with what you knew and what you were capable of. And now, you know better. And I think I'm going to go this way. My spatial anchoring is reversed. So you're this beautiful person that's resolving your past. You weren't all of who you consider yourself to be. And that you're asking me to eradicate cognitive dissonance. Nup. Have it. Realize you're human. If you're only going to be compassionate when you're bringing your A game and you're on and you switched on, that's not compassion. When you’re a blithering mess on the floor, out of breath … be compassionate for that woman and recognize the gap and embrace that gap. That's the journey. So I will not take away any of your imperfections. I will not coach you to soften them. I will not reframe them. Let's deal with the compassion gap rather than getting rid of the gap.” —Sasha: “I love that so much because the dissonance I thought was what we had to close. But the dissonance is just a journey, isn't it? And then I bring the compassion to the part where I haven't been, or haven't been able to, or have been choosing not to whatever it is and that dissonance is okay. Because that also demonstrates my growth and it demonstrates how far I've come in this. Thank you. That's a massive gift, a massive gift in allowing the suckiness to be there. Yeah, because I've been wanting to get away, moving away from wanting to get away from that because it's not who I perceive myself to be.” —Sasha “can already see the massive potential in actually keeping the dissonance rather than trying to close it. Cause that's not based in reality, actually closing that is me rejecting that experience of all of us and me rejecting myself.” —Sharon: “I want you to know I'm into you knowing that you can suck. I don't have this benchmark where you've got to have it all together for me to be into you.” —Sasha: “That would be awful. And that's precisely what I've been doing to me.” 50.88: LAYERING WITH COMPASSION —Sharon invites Sasha to go back to a time when she suspects she sucked and “layer it with compassion or however you want to interact with compassion of the person you were becoming and are becoming.” —Sasha imagines a time: “You can see how out of control I felt inside and stood there as myself and gave myself a hug because she needed that so much. That's a beautiful … you’re right. That's exactly the antidote to the judgment of self.” —Sharon: “The invitation moving forward … perhaps do that process for yourself and then just get on with your day. If you did one or two a day, you'd be done in a reasonable period of time. And then you'll just start figuring how to replace it with something else, because you're going to need to do something else. Once you've cleaned, embraced, loved each of those moments of you you’re goinjg to want to do some other stuff in your thoughts.” —Sharon says it will become automatic for Sasha and “you startito future orientate yourself rather than this past orientation. It's only muscle memory. So as much as you feel, you need to address it, go forth. And then as the void appears as it will inevitably start filling it with the direction that you want to start moving yourself. Start pre-framing. I'm going to need to be compassionate in a week because pretty sure that's when I'm going to need it. “ —Sasha: “Yeah, that's so cool. I mean, gosh, I already know possibly bedtime tonight is the next tier of compassion.” —Sharon: “And you're doing this for you now. The beauty of it is you're modeling and demonstrating for your children, which is great. But do it for you because, it's the oxygen mask analogy. It's filling up your cup.” —Sasha says “exactly the path forward for me. The 10 per cent is mind blowing and then the rest is the compassion and giving that to myself and readying myself for filling the void with not only the compassion, but then also the idea of what the possibilities are in those darker moments. Oh gosh and just allowing myself a bit more grace for goodness sakes. Like that's a massive gift in itself.” —Sharon: “So you see or saw perfectionism, I'm going to say where we started the session I see you being loving and caring and wanting the best for your family. if the pathway to you experiencing that is compassion, that's perfect. —Sasha: “It's a very simple approach that I can shift very, very easily. It doesn't have a multitude of steps. One concept. I love how you met my need. Thank you. And I think that's the constant question. How can I bring more compassion to this? Thank you. Self first, then to the situation.”
84 minutes | Nov 25, 2020
Midas Touch with Blair James || #Perspectives with Sharon Pearson
Zero: Beginnings —Sharon welcomes Blair and introduces him as someone who as “created something out of what seems to be nothing … I love meeting people who know how to think about how to solve problems and to think outside the box and to build something that's worthwhile and they care about.” —Blair reveals when he was 17 he lost his father to heart attack. When he was 23 his mother died after a two-year battle with cancer which is “your worst fear as a kid growing up … it’s probably one of the most terrifying things I’ve been through.” He compares his father’s sudden death with his mother’s experience: “My dad was gone overnight and didn't get to say goodbye. Um, but mum, you know, got to say goodbye, but at the same time, having the pain of watching someone slip away like that. So I don't know which what I would choose.” —Blair talks how he “loved” brands, “even a six, seven year old. I think that came from my dad … a lot of that was sort of squashed out of me through school. Um, it was when mom and dad passed away, it was almost a bit of a reset, to be honest, it was like that. I had really no expectations of what I should do.” He dropped out of uni and his mother approved: “She said , ‘You weren't meant for university, go and build your own thing.’” —He moved from the suburbs to Port Melbourne where he started his tanning salon, so without his mother’s death “I wouldn't have started the business. While I'd trade it all to have my mum back, um, it really kicked me into that.” —Sharon says Blair’s “playground is right here in your head.” —He agrees: “I’m always looking at the next thing. It gets tiring after a while, because I don't know if I'm ever going to be satisfied, but then at the same time, I don't think I'd want to be because I enjoy, enjoy chasing the next thing. And that's, that's where I find my enjoyment. It's not about, it's not about the end goal. —Sharon asks one message from Blair’s father than has stayed with him. —Blair: “He just used to say to me that I could do anything. He just believed you could do whatever you needed to. So I definitely got that from him. Mum was definitely a lot more pragmatic than that. She was a psychologist. It didn't matter who mum was speaking to. She was, you know, she was the same person all the time. Just a really calming influence. My dad a lot more high pace, a lot more, ‘What's next?’” —Blair doesn’t like being the centre of attention: “At high school, I would do anything to skip school. Yeah, it's really been I reckon the last six years where I started to feel confident talking about the things that I care about and the things that I would like to have an impact on.” 10.21: Building a brand —From the start Blair and partner Shaun Wilson knew they wouldn’t “represent the personality of the brand” because the positioning is female-oriented: “We needed someone that could talk directly to that young consumer.” Molly Quinn, who worked in the tanning salon, looked after social media early on: “She really, I felt typified the voice. Fun, engaging, never said a bad word about anybody. It was just a friendly face. And that’s what I wanted to be the front of Bondi.” —Bondi Sands has been “a very quick journey”, Blair says: “We've just been so aggressive with what we've wanted to do with the brand. We had a global view for this brand from day one. We believed we could be the number one selling self-tanning brand in the world from day one. And I think we used to talk about that before we even sold one product.” Vision came true last year when they launched it to the US: “Once you've achieved a big goal like that it frees you up to then think about what's next for the brand. It doesn't always become solely around numbers and how many products you sell. It's more about know, how do we look to give back, or how do we do, how do we build a better business? So I think that's been, that's been an interesting progression for the brand over the last 12 months.” —Sharon asks what it was that told Blair and Sean they would have a number one product. —Blair talks genesis, saying the direction around wanting an Australian branded self-tanning product went back to an experience he had playing basketball in the US when he was a teenager and “that bronzed Aussie was just such a strong perception of Australians all around the world. So that, that stuck with me.” —Sharon: “When did you realize that was a branding proposition? Because it's one thing to realize there's a perception of Aussies, but it's another to convert it into a branding proposition.” —Blair opened his salon in 2006 and four years later started working on Bondi Sands. “And it was really at that time that we really started to understand that, you know, the Australian lifestyle that was very well known all around the world. So that was really just connecting the dots. We chose Bondi probably because the most famous beach in the world, but I think to Australians, it felt like that was an iconic Australian image that we could sell to the world.” —At the same time he was doing customer research in the tanning salon. “It was getting to the point where we couldn't fit any more clients in. And I would start suggesting products that they could buy from a local pharmacy that they could just buy off the shelf. And so you're getting all this feedback of, ‘It doesn't last long enough, it stinks or the color is bad’. So I still look back at that those seven years as you know, some of the best market research you can ever do. I think we know tanning consumers better than anyone in the world. And it does come back to those seven years of talking to customers every single day.” —18.23 Connecting the dots and evolution —Sharon says not everybody would have made the connections that Blair did: “You don't know until you look back why it was smart. Is that how you see it?” —Blair: “I definitely look at it as smart. I do connect things a lot on a daily basis. Most of your next steps in life comes from obviously where you are today. Most of the things I've done have come as evolutions of the occupation that's come before. So that salon moving into Bondi Sands was really an evolution, it wasn’t a brand new step. —Sharon notes Blair was looking at going bankrupt after the Victorian government outlawed tanning salons and while others did, he was entrepreneurial enough to spin the demand for tanning into a fake tan product. —Blair says Bondi Sands was in motion before the tanning bed ban. “That's one of the things that Sean and I do very well with Bondi. We're always thinking what's next, what's next? The amount of products we bring to bring to market and the speed that we do that that makes us an incredibly tough brand to compete with because we're constantly pushing out something new and in today's modern age where people are just on social media, they're wanting to see something new. I think your consumers need to see that you're trying something new. You're looking to further yourself and that's what we do as a brand.” —Blair says Bondi Sands has developed “very organically” and that in their initial brand presentation back in 2011 they had sunscreen on the slate. They eventually launched a couple of years ago. “So we had directions really built out for how this brand was going to roll out probably six, seven years ahead.” —Sharon notes Blair earned his stripes doing suntanning six days a week, every 15 minutes. He says, “around races time it was like some of the girls were there spraying until 11 o’clock at night.” —Sharon recalls working seven days a week for two years, burning her own CDs, doing all my own production for the vision that I had. I knew there was a bigger vision there. I didn't know where it was going to go. I didn't have it as clear as you did. But I knew it involved. I've got to get out of the one-on-one and into the one to many.” —Blair talks the early days, handling customer inquiries, packing orders and walking to the post office to post them: “Definitely not the most efficient way of spending my time. But, um, that was, that was just what we had to do in the beginning … something that was highlighted to us very early on was that people did want to support an Australian brand. You know, it's funny. We just never saw that it wasn't going to work. I don't mean to come across arrogant. We never entertained that it wasn't gonna work. We knew our product was great. We knew it was good value.” —They had early challenges and one product failed stability and it turned green out in the marketplace: “I had some interesting moments in the beginning.” —27.57 SALES STRATEGY AND PARTNERSHIPS —Blair talks Bondi Sands relationship with their biggest retailer Priceline: “We remained exclusive with them for close to five, six years before we went anywhere else.” —Sharon notes Bondi Sands has been “so careful to price competitively for your demographics so that everyone can afford” and Blair respond: “Yeah, it was funny. Like a lot of people talk about our pricing and ask about the strategy and it was, there was no strategy. It was literally, I believed our consumer was 17 through 20 year old females. I believe that a lot of them probably would have spent spending pocket money or money from a casual job. Um, and so I wanted them, I wanted those consumers together to come in and buy our product and get some change from a twenty dollar note.” Said three main pillars were built around the product: Australian made, affordable and accessible. “That's their values that we still adhere to, regardless of what territory we go into.” —Sharon notes they keep coming back because of the quality and price point. —Blair says one of the issues with brand development now and new brands coming to life through social media is “it's all about the marketing and not about the product. Um, you know, you see very few brands coming to market today that spend the 18 months like we did developing our first range. There’s become a bit of a disregard towards brands that are are built out of repeat purchase. We have a 92 per cent retention rate globally. So we know once we get a product, someone starts using Bondi, they'll stay with the brand because it's hard to match that quality at that price point. —Sharon talks TCI’s retention model where clients pay a monthly retainer. “So the more that builds up, that's more of a measure of how we're doing. And we've got a stick rate of like 96 per cent. That I only had to acquire a raving fan once, and then they stay The cost is in the acquisition.” —Blair’s fiancée buys “so many” brands online and “every time she buys something, she’s disappointed.” —33:12: Where Kylie Jenner fits into the picture —Sharon notes Bondi Sands paid Kylie Jenner $270,000 in 2018 for a single Insta post that was a hit with her 112 million followers, ensuring a great launch for the product in the US market. —Blair says Kylie had used the product before she was approached was “incredibly exciting.” Says the strategy around it was they wanted to show American retailers they were willing to invest and that Bondi Sands would support them if they put the products on their shelves. —Asked how many ads on old school TV he would have had to have paid for to match the Jenner result, Blair says around the same time they launched a product at Coachella at a private estate at Palm Springs and Emily Ratajkowski turned up: “We actually got more PR out of, out of her, turning up to our event. Um, and it was close to a billion reach off the back of people just resharing the fact she was at our event.” —Says while influencers have been “a huge part” of our strategy, they want to do it in an “organic” way: “We do like to align with people over long periods of time and not just have them doing random posts. Obviously with Kylie Jenner is’ts an expensive process to have a long-term engagement.” They launched around the same time as Instagram, which was “a modern gold rush for brands.” —Talks influencer Steph Claire Smith, one of Australia’s biggest influencers and now an entrepreneur. “Back in 2013 we were meeting with our PR agencies and it was at a time where people were starting to emerge that may have had 30, 40,000 followers on Instagram. So our PR agency was suggesting a lot of influencers to us, but at the time they were more celebrities that had jumped on Instagram quickly. There wasn't a lot of people that were just everyday people that had built a following. So we were getting presented with people like Margot Robbie and there was huge costs associated with someone that just because she was a legitimate celebrity.” Steph Claire Smith bought and posted about a product and you know, it was kinda like, this is the goal. That's the type of girl that we would like to represent our brand. And then it turns out she had 140,000 followers. The investment to get all that on board with our brand was a fraction of what a traditional celebrity was at the time. Apart from the cost saving what was important to us was that these people weren't engaged with her just because she was a celebrity, they engaged with her because they related to who she was. Um, so that was why we bought Steph into, you know, become the face of Bondi Sands. —Since then they’ve used over 1000 influencers around the world. The business likes to align with someone for months to build credibility. “We wanted these people to be almost seen as though they were brand representatives of ours, not just someone to reshare some content.” —40.00: To market, to market —Blair says the brand people buy says something about who they are: “A lot of times we'll launch a new product and we don't have to market it to a lot of the people who follow Bondi because they believe in what we produce. So they will always buy a new product. And I always talk about a brand to consumer relationship is no different to a friend to friend relationship. You buy into brands that represent who you are and who you feel you're aligned with. So I think, yeah, when people skip over that brand development and building that brand equity, you're missing the most important part of building your brand. —Sharon: “It’s not just selling product. I call it giving a shit.” Asks Blair where Bondi Sands is heading. —Blair says becoming the number one brand globally was “a great achievement to tick off the list.” Has allowed them to think even more broadly than before and the business is now a credible brand in skincare as well as self tan: “I'm looking forward to taking more responsibility for the category that we're in, in terms of whether it be eco-friendly products, better sustainability, packaging, the product, the right way, the right ingredients, representing the brand in the right way. I feel like the exciting thing for Bondi now is we can help create change potentially around sustainability. Um, and that's something that's gonna be a big driver for us over the next two to three years, that's going to incorporate, um, potentially a bit of a rebrand, brand new packaging throughout our whole range, which is 60 products. We're looking into new territories.” —Sharon asks if he has much to do with the team and he says it’s more Sean’s remit. Says some of the struggles they’ve had is around bringing in team members into the US who are all American: “So their perception of the brand is, is so different to yours. They still need to take responsibility for their own territory, but they need to really understand the brand heritage and understand where you're going. They need to understand the Australian way of life. They need to understand, you know, that, okay, this may not be the way you talk but this is how we talk as a brand.” —Talks the “world first range” coming in January that is a new and very different direction for Bondi Sands. It will the sun care partner for the Australian Open in 2021, in a three-year deal with the “iconic platform.” —51.00: Creating —Sharon asks Blair what his creative process is. —Blair: “It's different all the time I find, and if I'm looking for inspiration on something or I go looking for product ideas, they don't come. It's always an evolution of where we are today.” Talks 2016’s Tan Eraser product and how it came about and how one product often leads to another. In 2018, the Aero Express product became the fastest selling product in Priceline history, regardless of category. —Sharon notes “creativity for me is problem solving. You got to go where everyone else hasn't been yet.” —Blair talks misconceptions around creativity and that he believes it’s “the most under-utilized superpower the human race has. People always ask me, like, how do you become creative? I'm not a creative person. I feel like anybody can be a creative person. It's just a different mindset. And I think it's, it's as simple as asking questions.” —Sharon says her “most hated” comment is, ‘We’ve always done it that way’ … “If we've been defending a status quo, what a waste of energy.” —Blair says when someone is explaining ideas to him, “I'll just keep asking questions. And at the end of these discussions, you always ended up with a better idea or a better concept. So I think, yeah, creativity is so important and it can be utilized in any, in any field. And it's not to be confused with talent.” —Sharon talks deduction and induction thinking and says Blair is an induction thinker: “You naturally go to what could be, which is the reason why a suntan salon for you was not the end of the road in the industry.” —Blair is “not always interested in what other brands are doing. I want us to get an idea of trends and categories, but I'm not going to be fixated on what a category does because that's just, well, what happened yesterday. You know when you create a new product that there's no data to support that it's going to work. So it all comes down to how you create it. How you tell a story. It's one of the things that we try to get our brand team to do is just to think outside of what you've been told on a daily basis that works. The way my dad brought me up was very much like that. He just believed that if you wanted something, you had to go and create something to get there. PART TWO: Zero: TKTK —Blair says his dad was “always asking questions. Talks about living in the UK when he was a kid and his father owned a business importing Australian goods. “I’ve always loved watches and cars. And there was a, a calculator watch that I wanted. It was about 11 pounds. We didn't have much money at the time. So I'd just have to work at my own way to to get it. And, um, my dad had a whole heap of Vegemite and peanut butter at the back of the store. And, um, so I took that and I cut up one of the boxes and made like a little tray and went and sold the whole lot. I made about 33 pounds and I bought the watch. Dad was like, ‘You can’t take my stock and just sell it’ but deep down I think he loved it. And I think that that really set something in stone for me, that it was like, well, if you want something, there's an opportunity to go and get it. You just need to go and do it.” —Sharon says for most people, “the reason to dig a hole for themselves is they think the problem is going to be solved by staring at the problem. I won't get the answer there.” —Blair says he has had push back from his team in the past over new ideas “But you know, this is what consumers want to see. They want to see new things from the brand they love. There's been, you know, ideas that have been dialed down or diluted. And then two years goes by and then you go, well, that, wasn't what it should be. And I've learned to trust that now. I think if f you're going to push a new idea, it needs to be as out there, or as forward-thinking as it possibly can be because by the time it gets to market you then dial down by cost restrictions and retailers and marketing expectations and claims and all those things. So if it wasn't something that was really out there in the beginning, it's going to end up being very boring by the time it gets to market. So that's something I always think about like, is, is it enough to love that, that first idea? Are we going big enough in the beginning? Cause I know it's going to get stripped away.” —Sharon says her best ideas have come from “really bad ideas or horrible situations because I've had to be so inventive. One of my sayings is when my back is to the wall, the best in me comes out. So I, my most creative and innovative when I have to be, because then I'm just going to come charging through the walls.” —Blair enjoys the development process: ”That branding side, that creativity side has been there since I was a kid and I. But do get a buzz out of it.” Talks new hair growth brand Growth Bomb. —Sharon notes he loves a project: “I don't think you even feel you have a business as such, you have big projects and you always need the next big project.” —He says male influencers don’t really work for Bondi Sands: “Women like to relate to who's given them the message so I think that's why women buy into influencers more. I think men buy more into brand message and the old school marketing.” —Talks their hybrid strategy of building a brand on social media but also looking at mass ways of marketing: “So, you know, just because something's worked in the past, doesn't mean it's gonna work for everything. Um, and it's about learning and adapting.” —M —Blair says in 2015 Bondi Sands was “all about girls in bikinis” and “now I think you're seeing people now find their niche and become experts within those fields. And now that's what people, consumers are wanting. What followers are wanting from these influencers is they want to want to see a level of expertise about what they're talking about, not just posting a nice photo.” 12.48: School’s out for creativity —Sharon says creativity isn’t encouraged in schools, and discusses a study that shows kids have one hundred percent creativity when they start school and within five years it’s dropped drastically. —Sharon: “I believe the lack of creativity is one of the reasons why we have so much trouble having dialogue that's mature in society now. And when we don't trust ourselves and we don't trust our innovation and our ability to think and analyze and critique, we rely on authority. And when we rely on authority, we have to blindly believe it because we don't have any criteria. So authority becomes the substitute [00:15:00] for us thinking creatively.” —Blair: ”Starting to become creative is a very simple thing. And I believe is about just asking questions. That's it.” —Sharon disagrees: “Not all people know what to do with the answers. If you don't know what to do with the answer, it can't go into your neural net to produce something different because it's basically orange plus cloud equals dog.” —Blair: “Uh, I think it's just about getting that frame of mind, first of all, the first part of it is, is just trying to think in a way where there may be more. It's just accepting that there may be more than what you've been told.”
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