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Joined by comedian, writer & performer Joz Norris, we're finally delving into prog rock for our last episode of the season - and we hope, like us, that you don't take it TOO seriously... Joz picked Emerson, Lake & Palmer as overrated because he feels that they represent the wildest excesses of prog and contribute to its pretentious reputation. With one of the songs on Joz's playlist called 'The Three Fates: i) Clotho ii) Lachesis iii) Atropos', will Fran & Babs agree they're too ostentatious - or will they get on board the ELP train? The underrated pick this week is Marillion, who Joz feels are often unfairly treated as a joke band and should be better known for more than their smash 1985 hit 'Kayleigh' - especially as they were pioneers in fan-funded music and are still making records and touring to this day. We recommend you checking out ⁠⁠Keith Emerson's flying piano on YouTube⁠⁠ - and we mentioned Zoltan Koscis playing Bartók's Allegro Barbaro and Khatia Buniatishvili playing Mussorgsky's The Hut on Hen's Legs (Baba-Yaga) as stunning piano highlights. You can find Joz on Twitter and Instagram - he is @JozNorris in both places. If you're based in or near London, Joz will be recording a few comedy specials at the Moth Club on 16 July. Before that, he'll be hosting an all-day comedy workshop at The Bill Murray on 29 June. More of his shows, films and radio sitcoms are available on his Linktree. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Joz's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by content creator, musician, amateur historian, YouTuber, journalist & author Christian Patrick, we're discussing two glam bands on, arguably, the opposite of the fame spectrum this week... First up, another sacred cow under the microscope - we're talking about behemoths Queen, specifically their output from the 70's...like most people, Christian, Fran & Babs like some of their output - but going into the discussion, we all agree that they're overrated...will a five-track playlist change anyone's mind? Christian is close friends with his underrated pick - Swedish band and Eurovision participants The Ark - having met them when he was living in Milan. He's such a fan, he even wrote a book about them. Fran already knew the band - and says the best gig he probably has ever seen was their show at Barfly (!) - but Babs doesn't know them very well (although it turns out, she had known their Swedish-language song Kolla Kolla from the film Shortbus). Can she be convinced to become a fan on a similar level to Christian or Fran? Christian is on Instagram @Obscurist_Tourist. Check out Christian's YouTube channel Obscurist Tourist, for "travel videos and reviews of hidden gems, quirky places, and all things off the beaten path." He also has a website. Christian's book on the Ark is called 'No End: The Story Of The Ark'. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by Chris & Mark from the Unsung Podcast, it's Part II of our Record Label special, where we're talking about Wilmington, Delaware's Jade Tree Records (check out Part I where we discussed Washington DC's Dischord Records). Fran & Babs hadn't previously heard of Jade Tree Records - and didn't know many of the bands on their roster. Founded in 1990 and initially focused on post-hardcore and noise rock bands, Jade Tree began incorporating emo, punk, melodic hardcore, and experimental groups later on that decade. Chris & Mark make a good case for it being underrated, picking five interesting, diverse acts from the label. Check out Chris & Mark's ⁠Unsung Podcast⁠, especially the two Muse episodes Fran & Babs guested on (Side A & Side B) as well as the Millionaire episode which sees Babs discuss some of her fave Belgian music in depth. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Mark & Chris' playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by Chris & Mark from the Unsung Podcast, it's a different approach for today's episode - our guests have picked two different record labels and five bands who released records from them to make up each playlist, and we're all discussing whether a label can be classified as overrated or underrated. In Part I we're talking about Washington DC's Dischord Records, an ⁠independent record label⁠ specializing in ⁠punk rock⁠, co-founded by Fugazi's Ian MacKaye & Minor Threat's Jeff Nelson. As people involved in the punk scene, Mark & Chris have been extremely influenced by both the music and ethos of the label - Dischord is notable for employing a DIY ethic, producing all of its albums and selling them at discount prices without financial input from major distributors. While the label is undoubtedly important and produces some excellent music, does it completely deserve the high pedestal it's on? Join us next week for Part II where we'll be talking about Wilmington, Delaware's Jade Tree Records. Check out Chris & Mark's ⁠Unsung Podcast⁠, especially the two Muse episodes Fran & Babs guested on (Side A & Side B) as well as the Millionaire episode which sees Babs discuss some of her fave Belgian music in depth. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Mark & Chris' playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Following on from our Eurovision 2023 episode, we popped online for a quick chat to talk about an entertaining short film - Worst Kept Secret: The Subwoolfer Documentary which is available on the Eurovision Song Contest YouTube channel. Fans of Eurovision 2022 will definitely remember Subwoolfer, the yellow Norwegian space wolves who managed to keep their identities under wrap throughout the competition - or did they? The documentary explores how the song was conceived at a writing camp, how A1's Ben Adams and Norwegian Idol runner-up Gaute Ormåsen became semi-permanent Subwoolfer members Keith and Jim, why they chose to hide their identity in the first place and how Norwegian journalists managed to uncover them way before they revealed themselves spectacularly at the Norwegian Melodi Grand Prix 2023. As with our previous episode, we invited some special guests to send us voice notes about this year's Eurovision competition - so thank you to François Diderrich, Ceri Mitchell, Paulo Mendes-Jorge as well as teacher Les Pemberton and students Elene and Sofia from the British International School of Tbilisi, Georgia for their contributions to this episode 🇪🇺 You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes our Eurovision 2023 best and worst picks from our previous episode, plus bonus songs from other artists we've discussed during this episode... Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

It's our yearly Eurovision special - we've listened to all 37 songs from this year's competition and picked our five favourite and least favourite tunes. This time, we're also joined by contributors across Europe giving their opinions on the competition and some of the entries we talk about! If you enjoy this episode, you should check out our 2022 and 2021 episodes as well as our two-part special with Babs' dad, which analyses Eurovision 1958-2019 - both the underrated and overrated aspects, of course... Thanks to Paula Wiseman, Shane McMenemy, Iva Babić, Riku Pudas, Sara Lucas, Georgette Cullum, Tena Lavrenčić, Daniel Bellqvist & George Thurley for their contributions to this episode 🇪🇺 You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes our Eurovision 2023 best and worst picks, plus bonus songs from other artists we've discussed during this episode (as well as songs relating to an upcoming bonus episode)... Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by Shane McMenemy from the Mixtaping Identity podcast, we're talking about one of his all-time favourite bands - as well as a DJ he's not super-keen on. It's not that Shane massively dislikes Calvin Harris (Dumfries), but he feels his music is "cynically-produced and commercially-driven" - Shane feels Calvin is good at capitalising on trends, but there's little substance. Will Fran & Babs agree - or is his music hitting them right in the feels? Frightened Rabbit (Selkirk) are a hugely important band for Shane - for the music as well as lead singer Scott Hutchison's heartfelt lyrics. Falling under the indie folk category, the band is much more up Fran's street than Babs' - so can Shane's playlist soften her hardened heart? You should check out Shane's excellent ⁠Mixtaping Identity podcast⁠, especially - of course - the episode that Babs guested on, picking a fifteen-track playlist that defines her life so far. The charity set up following Scott Hutchinson's death, Tiny Changes, aims to "transform young people’s mental health in Scotland". Check out their website and their shop to find out more. Shane is YakEnemy on Twitch and he also wanted to shout out Jacqui Lumsden's song Closer. Please also enjoy some Calvin Harris memes: wenomechainsama and Me As A Professional Pianist For Calvin Harris. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Shane's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Friend of the podcast Tom Haigh joins us again - he previously talked about David Bowie in Part I of this British Singer-Songwriters theme - and this time he's talking about musician Nick Drake. An influence on many big artists like R.E.M., Kate Bush and The Cure, Nick Drake's profile was low during his short lifetime - and, argues Tom, still not high enough these days for such a talented musician... Tom's brother Jack is an extremely talented guitarist - you should check out his videos and follow him on Instagram @jackhaighmusic. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Tom's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at ⁠overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com⁠. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by friend of the podcast Tom Haigh, we had such fun chatting to him that it's gonna be another two-parter... Fran & Babs have wanted to talk about David Bowie for ages and Tom is a mega-fan, primed and ready to defend him - he has picked some deeper cuts to introduce lesser-known Bowie tunes to two people who feel that he is, at the very least, overhyped... Tom's brother Jack is an extremely talented guitarist - you should check out his videos and follow him on Instagram @jackhaighmusic. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Tom's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

While Fran acknowledges Kraftwerk have been a huge influence on many bands he likes, he's never been interested enough to dip into into their back catalogue too heavily...Babs is a fan and hopes to convince Fran that Kraftwerk's source material is worth listening to in more depth... Fran introduces Babs to Henric de la Cour, a solo act who also used to be the main singer-songwriter in the bands Yvonne and Strip Music. Through his ten-track playlist, Fran hopes to get Babs interested in another lesser-known Swedish act 🇸🇪 The Kraftwerk Pop Art documentary we mention in this episode is available to watch on YouTube. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Brad's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Joined by Wisconsinite podcaster and YouTuber Brad LeBaron, we're heading back down under... Melbournites Jet are obviously best known for their smash hit 'Are You Gonna Be My Girl' - but they produced three albums and supported huge acts like the Rolling Stones, Oasis, Green Day and Bruce Springsteen...however, do Fran & Babs agree that a lot of their music sounds derivative? Brad is a huge King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizard fan and with 23 studio albums to their name, it was tricky for him to narrow his playlist down to five tracks showing the breadth of the band's back catalogue - but he's done his best to entice Fran & Babs over to the Gizzverse... Check out Brad's podcast The Album Concept Hour where he discusses concept albums in depth - of course, we'd recommend starting with the episode we guested on, talking about Radiohead's Kid A. You should also check out Brad's YouTube channel Flyover State Park. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from Brad's playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

We're joined by Teesside-based singer songwriter Jen Dixon this week, who brings two nostalgic rock bands for discussion.. .Jen is a huge Foo Fighters fan - drumming from a young age, she was especially in awe of Taylor Hawkins...Fran is a Foo Fighters fan and says they're excellent live - but Babs has always felt they're overplayed (and that Dave Grohl shouts a bit too much in songs). Will Jen's playlist and Fran's arguments help change her mind? Welsh band Feeder have been going for almost thirty years and released an album as recently as 2022. However, Jen has chosen them as her underrated pick because she feels that too many people only associate the band with their biggest hit, Buck Rogers...hopefully, her playlist will introduce more people to some of their lesser-known songs... We highly recommend checking out the original and the new videos for Feeder's track Just a Day to make you feel better... Follow Jen on Instagram and Twitter - her handle is @JenDixonMusic. Jen's EP Less Than a Feeling is coming out digitally on June 30 and you can pre-order it as a beautiful blue vinyl here. You can also already listen to and buy Jen's music on Bandcamp. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. We're slowly adding our episodes to YouTube and would love it if you could subscribe to our channel there too. You can email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

'Ow do! We're back in Yorkshire to discuss two more Leodensian rock bands, having talked about Alt-J and Duels back in our first season... Kaiser Chiefs might be best known for their songs and albums of the noughties, but the band has continued to release music as recently as 2022...Fran has put together a playlist spanning most of their albums so he and Babs can talk about whether their top tunes have been overplayed - and whether they should be better-known for their most recent hits. Fran & Babs have been fans of difficult-to-Google band The Music for ages and are keen to discuss them - they were very hyped before their first album even came out, described by some as "the best unsigned band in Britain", but the British music press was not always kind to them after the fame hit a high... You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss. Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

We will be back next week with the first episode of Season Six! Bands we'll be discussing in this series include David Bowie, Queen, Nick Drake, The Ark, King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, Jet, The Music, Kaiser Chiefs, Kraftwerk, Calvin Harris, Henric de la Cour and Frightened Rabbit. In the meantime, find out what some of our BIGGEST FANS have to say about the podcast....

Rounding off this season is a special bumper episode with Chris Olley, musician and lead singer/guitarist from Six by Seven. If these names sound familiar, it's because Fran picked Six by Seven as an underrated band in our previous Nottingham episode - so this conversation is an Over/underrated first!  Chris listened to our episode, got in touch and we invited him to come on to talk about whether he agreed with our assessment of the band and hear more about the music he's making now. We also asked Chris to pick five songs from acts he thinks are underrated to add to the episode's playlist. In our longest ever episode, conversations include what it was like for Six by Seven to play on Later...with Jools Holland - but miss out on Top of the Pops - Chris' visits to the legendary Rockfield Studios with his fans, his collaboration Walls of Dada with Pete Holmstöm from the Dandy Warhols, what he makes of Six by Seven comparisons to The Church's Under the Milky Way, how Chris makes music every day and, even, what Chris was planning to take to the tip the next day...stay tuned for this and some other fantastic rock'n'roll stories. Six by Seven are on Bandcamp, Facebook and Instagram. On the episode, Chris mentioned the Radio Bremen sessions and the books he has written - one of which, in his words, "details his mental breakdown over seven albums...!" You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes Chris' underrated picks, plus bonus songs from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter, @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram or you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Santa Fran & Babs welcome you to our first ever Christmas special! We're joined by festive music appreciator and friend of the podcast Richard Delahay, who has picked his top five overrated & underrated Christmas songs... How much has working in retail and catering traumatised Fran & Richard's reactions to Christmas songs? How much of our conversation will be dominated by discussing the various Band Aid versions? And will Christmas pessimist Babs react to Richard's picks in a particularly bah humbug-y way? For more end-of-year cheer, check out our Best of 2022 episodes - Part I and Part II. You can also listen to our Best of 2021 and Best of 2020 episodes to see our faves from previous years. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter, @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram or on our YouTube channel. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

We've wrapped up the year once again, each picking our ten favourite tracks from 2022 and discussing our musical highlights and lowlights. However, this year we've mixed it up a little 🍸 and assigned each of our picks to ten categories... In Part II, we have five more categories to discuss: best sync song, favourite song you'd like to hear live, best new artist, best rock song and favourite non-European song. Check out the accompanying Best of 2022 Part I episode which came out last week - you can also listen to our Best of 2021 and Best of 2020 episodes to see our faves from previous years. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter, @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram or on our YouTube channel. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

We've wrapped up the year once again, each picking our ten favourite tracks from 2022 and discussing our musical highlights and lowlights. However, this year we've mixed it up a little 🍸 and assigned each of our picks to ten categories... In Part I, we'll be talking about each other's favourite song by a solo act, best song by a group, favourite track in a genre we don't normally like, favourite song not in English and best collaboration. Join us next week for Part II and to find out the other five categories we've picked for song rankings 🏆 Listen to our Best of 2021 and Best of 2020 episodes to see our faves from previous years.  You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter, @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram or on our YouTube channel. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Välkomna alla till säsongens sista avsnitt! This week we are joined by Daniel Bellqvist, lead singer of Swedish indie band Eskobar.  Daniel shares some great rock'n'roll anecdotes in this episode, including those relating to this week's overrated act, The Cardigans. While we all agree that Lovefool was extremely popular and played non-stop, is it fair to label The Cardigans overrated - or are there more underrated gems in their back catalogue? Fran & Babs are also introduced to The Tiny, Daniel's favourite Swedish band of all time - he discovered them live and loves the atmosphere they create, despite their sound being very different to Eskobar's.  Check out Daniel's band Eskobar, as well as Danny the Swedish Musixian on YouTube, a channel where he regularly livestreams and shares videos of him reacting to music. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. We've also added five of Fran's favourite Eskobar songs, so we really recommend checking it out. Download, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter, @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.

Hello DARLINGS and welcome to a most flamboyant episode! We're joined by Dr Becky Alexis-Martin and Annie Greatorex to discuss one of the most famous theatrical American musicians of all time and one rather more unknown... Dr Becky is keen to discuss mega-famous, revered Prince - she thinks he's written great songs for women (Sinead O'Connor, The Bangles) but feels many of his own tunes are TOO LONG! Will Fran, Babs & Annie agree - or will they be too busy doing the Batdance? Annie introduces us to Jill Tracy, who describes herself as a "musical conjurer, storyteller, sonic archeologist". Her music is undeniably atmospheric and she has an incredible voice - but will we all want to spend an "Evil Night Together" with her? Dr Becky is a lecturer in cultural and political geography and an expert nuclear warfare. Check out her Nuclear Geography website and her book Disarming Doomsday, which explores "the secret history of nuclear weapons by studying the places they build and tear apart", and won the 2020 LHM Ling Outstanding First Book Prize. Annie is a multi-disciplinary artist who works across the genres of music and visual arts. She opened the Wiseheart & Wild gallery and textile art studio in 2019, located in New Mills, Derbyshire - check out the events they're currently hosting. You can find the playlist for this episode on Spotify - it includes all songs from our playlists, plus bonus ones from other artists we've discussed during the episode. Download, review, subscribe and get in touch - especially if you have any suggestions for future themes or musicians to discuss! Follow us on social media - it's @OUmusicpod on Twitter and @overunderratedmusicpod on Instagram. You can also email us at overunderratedmusicpod@gmail.com. Thanks to Mark Abbott for our logo.