Mark Greene – How We Can All Get Out of the #Manbox
Tool of the Episode:
[32:36] One of the things we can do now is listening with curiosity, something we can do intentionally in both our personal and professional relationships.
About Mark:
Mark Greene has been writing, speaking, and participating in the conversation about modern manhood. In his work, he pinpoints the subtle differences between culture and identity.
He talks about the potential to grow a whole set of relational capacities that have sadly, for the most part, been denied to men by a whole litany of invisible cultural rules. In this interview, we talk about what culture is, how it impacts us, and how a growing number of men all over the world are rejecting the rules of the #manbox culture, for very good reasons!
[27:05] The problem is the culture of this man box manhood attacking EVERY masculinity equally. Man box culture is not about doing it right. It’s about creating a hierarchy of power to ensure the men always distrust each other, and never feel like they’ve ever fully succeeded. You’re not good enough, keep trying. And so on. And it happens all the way up the hierarchy. All men playing by these rules are going to face the experience of isolation.
You’re not good enough, keep trying. And so on. And it happens all the way up the hierarchy. All men playing by these rules are going to face the experience of isolation.
Mark’s books include Remaking Manhood, The Relational Book of Parenting (co-authored by his wife Saliha Bava,) and the new Little #MeToo Book for Men. You can find more about their work at ThinkPlayPartners.
Show Notes:
[5:00}] “The little space between culture and identity gives men a place to explore what they REALLY need, vs what they’ve been TOLD they need to thrive.”
[6:28] Rules for being a “real man” according to the man box include:
Men are providers, not caregivers.Men never show their emotions.Men are leaders.Men are confident.Men are heterosexual.Men always get the girls.Men are sports-focused over all else.
This defines men by what they do, not by who they are. Self-reflection is not a part of this identity. Not only is it not taught. It’s a threat to man box culture.
[10:32] Women have to be a part of the man box conversation, because women are integral to how men define themselves, and vice versa.
[12:43] The ability to create community. That’s what we strip boys and men of.
[13:00] We know that we’re living in a culture that’s undergoing an epidemic of loneliness.
[13:39] 1 out of every 2 Americans, all ages, are either sometimes or always feeling alone.” As far as the insurance company sees it, chronic loneliness is the equivalent heath risk to smoking a pack of cigarettes per day. (Study from Cigna health insurance.)
[14:36] I don’t consider traditional manhood to be a bad thing. I consider the enforcement of traditional manhood to be a bad thing. The man box is enforcing a caricature of all the most negative aspects of these versions of manhood.
[15:05] I think the roots of this disconnection stem back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. When the men were on the factory floors and they disconnected from the routines of family that would have nurtured the more positive and collectively oriented aspects of their masculinity.
[15:55] The only way we’re going to break out of it, is when the people who are being the most negatively impacted start to say, “No. No more.”
[18:00] What are the rules running in my life? And why am I necessarily accepting them?
[18:26] The reason I (Mark) talk about the women’s movement specifically, is because for a lot of the men invested in the man box culture, the women’s’ movement is happening in their lives, in their homes, in their beds. They can still insulate themselves from the other movements like Black Lives Matter or LGBTQI rights activists.
[24:20] The internet is a nightmare of reactive, racist, crazy crap. But it is also a window into a wide other range of being.
[27:05] The problem is the culture of this man box manhood attacking EVERY masculinity equally. Man box culture is not about doing it right. It’s about creating a hierarchy of power to ensure the men always distrust each other, and never feel like they’ve ever fully succeeded. You’re not good enough, keep trying. And so on. And it happens all the way up the hierarchy. All men playing by these rules are going to face the experience of isolation.
[29:30] We can have a good life if we want.
[31:18] Do you think there’s a tipping point? When more people are going to want to give the relational way of being a go?
[31:55] What we’re finding is that, getting out of the man box is profitable. If you run a big company, you’re going to make more money if you get rid of the man box.
[32:36] One of the things we can do now is listening with curiosity, something we can do intentionally in both our personal and professional relationships.
[36:00] One of the things that we (Mark & Saliha) try to do is to take away the idea that all this relational stuff (specifically listening with curiosity) is HARD WORK, and instead more people towards this idea that there’s WONDERFUL stuff out there that we’re not seeing.
[37:40] We should be having fun. We’re wired for connection, communication, play, discovery, joy. These things are hardwired into us.
[38:10] As we grow our children relational intelligence, we’re growing our own. It is a relating. It happens in the back and forth of parenting. As we grow our children’s way of being in the world, they grow ours.
[39:58] The one thing we really have any control over is where we choose to put our attention.
[40:51] Coach Joe Ehrmann and the InSideOut Initiative,
“Sports aren’t about winning games, it’s about teaching boys & men how to be more engaged, thoughtful, connecting partners in the process of sports and in the greater world.”
[41:30] At Home Dads & the @dads2summit down in Texas.
“These guys are breaking all the rules they’ve been taught from the man box.”
[42:26] Breaking the Glass run by Computer Futures
“Men and women finding mentors, and allies, and support for their personal success.”
[43:42] These tools to change the world are out there. Are we want you to have them, so we’re sharing them.
Links Mentioned:
ThinkPlayPartners.com The Little #MeToo Book for Men Remaking Manhood The Relational Book for ParentingNiobi Way – Deep Secrets. Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of ConnectionJudy Chuwen – When Boys Become BoysCoach Joe Ehrmann InSideOut InitiativeAt Home Dads @dads2summit Breaking the Glass Remaking Manhood Facebook Group Remaking Manhood on Medium Remaking Manhood on Linkedin Twitter @remakingmanhood – Mark Greene Twitter @thinkplay – Saliha Twitter @melissitybee – Kaia
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