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Letrozole Conception - Birth & Death
Part 2 - Therese has difficulty conceiving and turned to IVF to help. Her heart-wrenching pregnancy journey includes her taking a triple dose of letrozole without anyone knowing, her suffering from pre-eclampsia and her baby being born with Edwards' Syndrome (Trisomy 18). She talks about birth, death and her journey of recovery. Transcript:----more---- 0:00:00.160,0:00:05.520 the doctor that was with 0:00:03.120,0:00:06.160 us when i delivered mira she told me 0:00:05.520,0:00:09.599 that 0:00:06.160,0:00:14.719 i am now going to be unprofessional and 0:00:09.599,0:00:14.719 what she told me there it helped me to 0:00:14.920,0:00:17.300 survive 0:00:16.200,0:00:22.400 [Applause] 0:00:17.300,0:00:25.119 [Music] 0:00:22.400,0:00:25.760 welcome back then this is part two where 0:00:25.119,0:00:27.760 we are 0:00:25.760,0:00:30.240 speaking to teresa so a guest from 0:00:27.760,0:00:31.119 sweden life is it just me it's a podcast 0:00:30.240,0:00:34.000 where we talk about 0:00:31.119,0:00:34.880 the big talking points in life do not 0:00:34.000,0:00:37.520 whatever you do 0:00:34.880,0:00:39.520 listen to this episode if you have not 0:00:37.520,0:00:40.160 yet checked out part one because there 0:00:39.520,0:00:42.239 is 0:00:40.160,0:00:44.000 a whole backstory which you've got to 0:00:42.239,0:00:46.719 hear first one is paul i'm joined by 0:00:44.000,0:00:47.520 ryan as always hello ryan hi paul how 0:00:46.719,0:00:49.120 are we doing today 0:00:47.520,0:00:51.199 really really good and great to have you 0:00:49.120,0:00:54.239 here and today is hello 0:00:51.199,0:00:57.120 hello welcome back today yes 0:00:54.239,0:00:58.239 you are telling us about your incredibly 0:00:57.120,0:01:01.440 detailed and 0:00:58.239,0:01:04.479 poignant and emotional story 0:01:01.440,0:01:06.080 all about your journey of 0:01:04.479,0:01:07.520 trying to conceive i guess and your 0:01:06.080,0:01:10.400 journey between ibm 0:01:07.520,0:01:13.040 took us on a rollercoaster last time wow 0:01:10.400,0:01:13.040 and we're back for 0:01:14.159,0:01:19.360 um i i had all the 0:01:17.200,0:01:23.119 the emotions all of them every single 0:01:19.360,0:01:23.119 one ticked them off like a bingo card 0:01:23.840,0:01:28.240 emotional bingo we have to we're going 0:01:26.880,0:01:29.439 to have to release that now it's a board 0:01:28.240,0:01:33.040 game 0:01:29.439,0:01:34.880 is it just me emotional that is that's a 0:01:33.040,0:01:36.479 really good who can we team up with 0:01:34.880,0:01:38.880 hasbro or someone like that 0:01:36.479,0:01:40.079 hasbro has to say that mattel maybe one 0:01:38.880,0:01:42.159 of the big ones to be honest i don't 0:01:40.079,0:01:45.439 really care anybody will do 0:01:42.159,0:01:47.280 take my rights take my money okay 0:01:45.439,0:01:48.640 let's go back to business today you were 0:01:47.280,0:01:51.040 telling us all about 0:01:48.640,0:01:52.720 your time in hospital catches up and 0:01:51.040,0:01:54.399 continue from where you got to please as 0:01:52.720,0:01:58.399 best you can 0:01:54.399,0:02:01.920 yeah well when we ended the last time 0:01:58.399,0:02:06.159 i have just told you about 0:02:01.920,0:02:09.039 having giving birth to my daughter and 0:02:06.159,0:02:11.280 well my husband joaquim just told me it 0:02:09.039,0:02:15.280 was a girl because we didn't know until 0:02:11.280,0:02:18.239 the birth so now we were asked 0:02:15.280,0:02:19.520 from my midwife emma uh if we had a name 0:02:18.239,0:02:22.879 for her 0:02:19.520,0:02:24.720 and yeah 0:02:22.879,0:02:26.239 i was thinking about the name i have 0:02:24.720,0:02:29.520 been carrying for 0:02:26.239,0:02:30.160 many years and did i want to give that 0:02:29.520,0:02:32.480 name to 0:02:30.160,0:02:34.560 this beautiful girl or should i keep it 0:02:32.480,0:02:37.120 and save it for 0:02:34.560,0:02:38.400 for hopefully having another guy another 0:02:37.120,0:02:41.760 girl 0:02:38.400,0:02:44.640 and then i was no during the pre 0:02:41.760,0:02:46.000 pregnancy i have been thinking about 0:02:44.640,0:02:49.200 this baby as 0:02:46.000,0:02:49.599 mira so i turned to my husband and i 0:02:49.200,0:02:52.959 asked 0:02:49.599,0:02:56.400 is it mira and he looked at me and said 0:02:52.959,0:02:58.879 yes it is mira so 0:02:56.400,0:02:59.440 that's when i turned back to emma and 0:02:58.879,0:03:03.120 said 0:02:59.440,0:03:06.319 this is mira and from there 0:03:03.120,0:03:09.680 she got her name and 0:03:06.319,0:03:12.480 after this we were offered 0:03:09.680,0:03:13.440 to have a photograph come to take 0:03:12.480,0:03:18.159 photographs 0:03:13.440,0:03:21.200 of us and they did that for free 0:03:18.159,0:03:24.879 because of everything and then they 0:03:21.200,0:03:26.000 asked us if we would like to have a 0:03:24.879,0:03:31.040 priest coming 0:03:26.000,0:03:34.319 to have a baptized 0:03:31.040,0:03:37.840 um and we said thank you to both 0:03:34.319,0:03:38.400 uh of those um so the photograph came 0:03:37.840,0:03:42.000 first 0:03:38.400,0:03:45.760 and took some really beautiful pictures 0:03:42.000,0:03:46.640 my favorite is one when i am talking to 0:03:45.760,0:03:49.920 meera 0:03:46.640,0:03:52.640 and i'm looking down at her and 0:03:49.920,0:03:53.920 the picture captures a moment where mira 0:03:52.640,0:03:57.200 is looking up at me 0:03:53.920,0:04:01.280 and me down the tar this is 0:03:57.200,0:04:04.080 my most precious picture i have of us 0:04:01.280,0:04:04.400 and we also have this beautiful picture 0:04:04.080,0:04:08.159 when 0:04:04.400,0:04:11.439 joaquim is kind of ticking 0:04:08.159,0:04:12.159 her hand to see if he can open her hand 0:04:11.439,0:04:15.280 up 0:04:12.159,0:04:16.560 and she does open her fingers and then 0:04:15.280,0:04:19.519 she closes them 0:04:16.560,0:04:21.040 on her on his fingertip this is also a 0:04:19.519,0:04:23.600 really beautiful picture 0:04:21.040,0:04:24.240 we have yeah it sounds beautiful it does 0:04:23.600,0:04:26.840 yeah 0:04:24.240,0:04:28.479 where did the choice of name mira come 0:04:26.840,0:04:32.080 from 0:04:28.479,0:04:35.840 i had a dream where me and my husband 0:04:32.080,0:04:38.639 and his sister were going in the city 0:04:35.840,0:04:40.160 for shop and shopping and we had a 0:04:38.639,0:04:42.560 stroller 0:04:40.160,0:04:44.560 and in this stroller we had this baby 0:04:42.560,0:04:48.000 girl named mira 0:04:44.560,0:04:50.639 and so i carried this name for 0:04:48.000,0:04:51.360 maybe 10 years hoping to have a baby 0:04:50.639,0:04:54.400 girl 0:04:51.360,0:04:54.400 name his name 0:04:54.639,0:05:01.199 and i finally had her get it 0:04:58.880,0:05:02.639 how did you feel we spoke last time 0:05:01.199,0:05:04.320 about 0:05:02.639,0:05:07.039 the depths you went to in the journey 0:05:04.320,0:05:10.240 and then of course being told 0:05:07.039,0:05:13.360 not long before you were to give birth 0:05:10.240,0:05:15.520 your baby was likely not going to 0:05:13.360,0:05:17.600 have a long life expectancy in that 0:05:15.520,0:05:18.560 moment with all that information in your 0:05:17.600,0:05:21.440 head 0:05:18.560,0:05:22.240 you still had mira to hold and to have 0:05:21.440,0:05:26.320 pictures 0:05:22.240,0:05:26.320 can you put that into words 0:05:26.800,0:05:33.759 at first it was um horrible 0:05:30.720,0:05:35.919 because i was holding my baby that was 0:05:33.759,0:05:39.120 going to die 0:05:35.919,0:05:42.880 but also when i calmed 0:05:39.120,0:05:46.639 down and when i learned that she 0:05:42.880,0:05:50.000 was still alive after birth i was so 0:05:46.639,0:05:50.800 filled with love to this tiny tiny 0:05:50.000,0:05:54.800 person 0:05:50.800,0:05:58.319 lying there because during the pregnancy 0:05:54.800,0:06:00.240 she had shown me her quirks she had a 0:05:58.319,0:06:04.000 personality 0:06:00.240,0:06:07.199 so to having this baby with this 0:06:04.000,0:06:08.319 personality on my chest and bonding the 0:06:07.199,0:06:11.600 guitar 0:06:08.319,0:06:14.800 it was amazing uh 0:06:11.600,0:06:17.520 it's hard to explain but 0:06:14.800,0:06:19.520 with all the emotions the the sadness 0:06:17.520,0:06:22.400 the grieving we had 0:06:19.520,0:06:22.800 the anger the frustration to being there 0:06:22.400,0:06:26.000 but 0:06:22.800,0:06:29.840 not being able to take her home and 0:06:26.000,0:06:30.240 also all this happiness to be there with 0:06:29.840,0:06:35.280 her 0:06:30.240,0:06:38.639 to hold her to see her to smell her 0:06:35.280,0:06:41.840 and feel her and it's 0:06:38.639,0:06:43.120 so wonderful to have those memories with 0:06:41.840,0:06:47.360 me 0:06:43.120,0:06:51.199 during all the pain we also have 0:06:47.360,0:06:55.039 and i have struggled a lot with pain 0:06:51.199,0:06:58.880 and i have been 0:06:55.039,0:07:02.880 through a lot of therapy because of this 0:06:58.880,0:07:06.160 and i have turned a lot of the pain to 0:07:02.880,0:07:09.440 good emotions like love and happiness 0:07:06.160,0:07:12.080 yeah good things so that's good 0:07:09.440,0:07:14.319 that that sounds positive because it 0:07:12.080,0:07:17.759 would be hard to 0:07:14.319,0:07:18.800 er not hard to do that but very easy to 0:07:17.759,0:07:22.560 go the other way 0:07:18.800,0:07:23.039 no um and take a lot of negativity from 0:07:22.560,0:07:25.199 that and 0:07:23.039,0:07:27.840 anger almost i can imagine anger would 0:07:25.199,0:07:31.520 have been the first place to go 0:07:27.840,0:07:33.199 um after upset but it's it's nice to 0:07:31.520,0:07:34.560 hear that you've got 0:07:33.199,0:07:36.639 to a point now where you've kind of 0:07:34.560,0:07:39.199 turned the page almost 0:07:36.639,0:07:40.479 to to that positivity side of things and 0:07:39.199,0:07:42.560 that you had all these positive 0:07:40.479,0:07:43.599 experiences 0:07:42.560,0:07:45.840 things that you wouldn't have been able 0:07:43.599,0:07:50.400 to do had it had not happened 0:07:45.840,0:07:52.639 so that's really good to hear that 0:07:50.400,0:07:52.639 yes 0:07:54.400,0:08:02.960 well um after this um 0:07:59.599,0:08:06.160 mira had been alive for um like 0:08:02.960,0:08:09.680 three or four hours so we were mowed 0:08:06.160,0:08:13.919 to neonatal at that time so they could 0:08:09.680,0:08:17.919 try to put a tube in her to feed her 0:08:13.919,0:08:21.759 so we were mowed over there and 0:08:17.919,0:08:25.199 when we came into our room we 0:08:21.759,0:08:28.400 had there we changed 0:08:25.199,0:08:32.080 so joaquin could hold her 0:08:28.400,0:08:34.800 and he told me afterward that 0:08:32.080,0:08:35.599 when it was confirmed that he was going 0:08:34.800,0:08:38.000 to hold her 0:08:35.599,0:08:38.640 he almost ripped his shirt in half to 0:08:38.000,0:08:41.760 get it 0:08:38.640,0:08:42.560 off him to then put the hospital chart 0:08:41.760,0:08:47.279 on 0:08:42.560,0:08:50.880 so he could have mira 0:08:47.279,0:08:54.800 beneath the hospital chart in a good way 0:08:50.880,0:08:58.800 yeah and 0:08:54.800,0:09:01.600 then they tried to put the tube but 0:08:58.800,0:09:03.279 it was really difficult and they wasn't 0:09:01.600,0:09:07.120 they weren't able to do that 0:09:03.279,0:09:10.160 and um during the time we had her there 0:09:07.120,0:09:13.760 they tried three times one 0:09:10.160,0:09:14.640 wiki joaquim one with me and the last 0:09:13.760,0:09:19.120 time 0:09:14.640,0:09:23.200 it was after midnight 0:09:19.120,0:09:25.200 they put her on a table with a heating 0:09:23.200,0:09:27.200 mattress to keep her warm when she 0:09:25.200,0:09:29.440 wasn't playing with us 0:09:27.200,0:09:30.480 and i took that time to go to the 0:09:29.440,0:09:32.320 bathroom because 0:09:30.480,0:09:33.600 i've been told from the doctors you need 0:09:32.320,0:09:35.839 to go to the bathroom 0:09:33.600,0:09:38.320 regular because after the epidural you 0:09:35.839,0:09:41.839 won't feel the need 0:09:38.320,0:09:44.240 and when i came out of the bathroom i 0:09:41.839,0:09:46.080 felt a change in the atmosphere in the 0:09:44.240,0:09:49.040 room 0:09:46.080,0:09:50.000 and i was focused on getting a glass of 0:09:49.040,0:09:53.279 water to take my 0:09:50.000,0:09:56.800 medication at that time but i 0:09:53.279,0:10:00.080 put the glass away and went 0:09:56.800,0:10:04.959 up to joakim and the two nurses 0:10:00.080,0:10:09.760 to see what was going on 0:10:04.959,0:10:09.760 then joaquin told me it's time 0:10:09.920,0:10:19.040 so after 11 hours alive 0:10:14.079,0:10:21.519 she was now giving up 0:10:19.040,0:10:22.320 so i went up there he woke him hugged me 0:10:21.519,0:10:26.000 really hard 0:10:22.320,0:10:26.399 and really close so i was standing there 0:10:26.000,0:10:29.440 in a 0:10:26.399,0:10:31.760 quite awkward situation position 0:10:29.440,0:10:33.440 because i wanted to hug you joaquim but 0:10:31.760,0:10:36.000 also i wanted to 0:10:33.440,0:10:38.640 let mira know that i was there with her 0:10:36.000,0:10:41.760 so i could put a hand on her 0:10:38.640,0:10:43.760 and then the doctor came in and 0:10:41.760,0:10:46.560 took this stethoscope and listened and 0:10:43.760,0:10:49.839 said yeah i can only hear the heart now 0:10:46.560,0:10:52.800 so it won't be long 0:10:49.839,0:10:54.160 and at that point i felt the need to 0:10:52.800,0:10:56.320 hold mira again 0:10:54.160,0:10:58.640 because she was laying there on this 0:10:56.320,0:11:00.000 table and it felt horrible to see her 0:10:58.640,0:11:03.600 lying there without 0:11:00.000,0:11:06.560 anyone holding her so i released myself 0:11:03.600,0:11:09.600 from joaquin designer i want to hold her 0:11:06.560,0:11:12.959 and i gently picked her up and got help 0:11:09.600,0:11:15.839 to open up the shirt so i could put her 0:11:12.959,0:11:15.839 skin to skin 0:11:16.079,0:11:20.560 and i held her there close to my own 0:11:19.839,0:11:25.040 heart 0:11:20.560,0:11:25.040 even her own when her heart stopped 0:11:26.839,0:11:31.680 beating 0:11:28.160,0:11:34.800 and we were alone at the time uh 0:11:31.680,0:11:39.519 the doctor said we will leave you 0:11:34.800,0:11:39.519 to be alone this last moment with her 0:11:40.399,0:11:43.760 so we were there alone and then they 0:11:43.120,0:11:46.079 came in 0:11:43.760,0:11:48.320 and the doctor confirmed that she was 0:11:46.079,0:11:48.320 gone 0:11:49.760,0:11:57.600 and yeah then we cleaned her 0:11:53.519,0:12:00.800 and dressed her and they had this 0:11:57.600,0:12:04.079 baby caskets i 0:12:00.800,0:12:07.760 think it's super name 0:12:04.079,0:12:10.320 where they put her in a cooling mattress 0:12:07.760,0:12:11.839 so we could have her as long as we 0:12:10.320,0:12:15.680 wanted 0:12:11.839,0:12:19.040 because that's what i have learned 0:12:15.680,0:12:22.720 you do in all sweden but also 0:12:19.040,0:12:25.760 in america in uk and in countries 0:12:22.720,0:12:28.160 where they know that it's important that 0:12:25.760,0:12:29.360 when your baby dies that you have the 0:12:28.160,0:12:32.480 baby 0:12:29.360,0:12:35.839 until you're ready to leave 0:12:32.480,0:12:38.160 the baby behind so to say 0:12:35.839,0:12:40.639 it sounds really wrong to say it but 0:12:38.160,0:12:43.920 that's the way 0:12:40.639,0:12:46.160 the reality yeah 0:12:43.920,0:12:47.600 so we don't think anybody anybody would 0:12:46.160,0:12:50.480 be able to understand how you feel 0:12:47.600,0:12:53.120 unless you've gone through that 0:12:50.480,0:12:53.519 although your storytelling is so vivid 0:12:53.120,0:12:55.360 that 0:12:53.519,0:12:57.120 i feel like we are going through it with 0:12:55.360,0:13:00.399 you um 0:12:57.120,0:13:03.279 i know what you think it's yeah 0:13:00.399,0:13:05.120 um i could feel myself choking up as you 0:13:03.279,0:13:08.720 were speaking and i was 0:13:05.120,0:13:08.720 i was like okay keep it together 0:13:09.839,0:13:13.120 sorry sorry yeah no i was just going to 0:13:11.680,0:13:16.240 say thank you for sharing again 0:13:13.120,0:13:17.680 because i know we talked about last time 0:13:16.240,0:13:20.000 it was almost a little bit like a 0:13:17.680,0:13:21.440 therapy session um 0:13:20.000,0:13:23.760 where we're sharing all these things 0:13:21.440,0:13:25.600 together um but i kind of hope that 0:13:23.760,0:13:28.079 that's how these come across 0:13:25.600,0:13:29.440 when when we release them as a series 0:13:28.079,0:13:32.320 i'm hoping that that's 0:13:29.440,0:13:32.639 that's what it kind of does for people 0:13:32.320,0:13:34.880 that 0:13:32.639,0:13:36.880 they see that it's not just them and 0:13:34.880,0:13:38.880 that 0:13:36.880,0:13:40.320 other people are going through painful 0:13:38.880,0:13:42.320 scenarios and 0:13:40.320,0:13:44.399 things that are normal if that people 0:13:42.320,0:13:45.360 think or perceive our normal everyday 0:13:44.399,0:13:48.000 things 0:13:45.360,0:13:49.440 and from a unique perspective and 0:13:48.000,0:13:51.839 knowing that they're not alone 0:13:49.440,0:13:53.600 and i'm hoping and i know paul feels the 0:13:51.839,0:13:57.440 same i'm not putting words in his mind 0:13:53.600,0:14:00.399 at all so that that is the 0:13:57.440,0:14:02.000 the kind of goal of this to to help 0:14:00.399,0:14:02.560 share these experiences with other 0:14:02.000,0:14:05.440 people 0:14:02.560,0:14:06.480 and to learn just share the learning i 0:14:05.440,0:14:09.279 guess and 0:14:06.480,0:14:09.920 learning that you're not alone out there 0:14:09.279,0:14:14.079 yeah 0:14:09.920,0:14:17.120 today yes you spoke about 0:14:14.079,0:14:19.279 being being with meter for his 0:14:17.120,0:14:21.040 until you were ready for as long as you 0:14:19.279,0:14:24.800 as you needed 0:14:21.040,0:14:26.000 yeah how do you come to that decision 0:14:24.800,0:14:28.560 how do you know 0:14:26.000,0:14:30.079 okay i'm ready how long how long did it 0:14:28.560,0:14:31.600 take did you 0:14:30.079,0:14:34.959 you and your husband reached that point 0:14:31.600,0:14:34.959 at the same time different times 0:14:35.279,0:14:41.600 um the truth is 0:14:38.399,0:14:46.079 neither of us was ready to leave 0:14:41.600,0:14:49.920 we did it anyway it's like when you 0:14:46.079,0:14:53.839 rip the bandage off it's like that 0:14:49.920,0:14:57.120 for us i could have stayed there for 0:14:53.839,0:14:58.399 a whole week longer and you're allowed 0:14:57.120,0:15:01.440 to do that and 0:14:58.399,0:15:03.360 here in sweden you are also allowed to 0:15:01.440,0:15:07.360 take the child home with you 0:15:03.360,0:15:10.959 if you want to okay um 0:15:07.360,0:15:11.600 that felt too weird for us to take her 0:15:10.959,0:15:14.639 home 0:15:11.600,0:15:18.320 when she wasn't alive so we 0:15:14.639,0:15:22.160 pretty early decided to not do that 0:15:18.320,0:15:26.959 um but we we slept the night 0:15:22.160,0:15:30.399 with her between us 0:15:26.959,0:15:33.279 and um the day after 0:15:30.399,0:15:33.839 we called our parents to let them know 0:15:33.279,0:15:37.600 that 0:15:33.839,0:15:39.360 she was gone and let them know that 0:15:37.600,0:15:41.519 if they wanted to come back to the 0:15:39.360,0:15:45.360 hospital to see her 0:15:41.519,0:15:47.199 and one last time they could do that 0:15:45.360,0:15:49.120 and my father was the only one who 0:15:47.199,0:15:52.720 didn't come back 0:15:49.120,0:15:56.000 and my mother and his parents came 0:15:52.720,0:15:59.759 yorking's parents um and 0:15:56.000,0:16:03.680 when they left um we had some lunch 0:15:59.759,0:16:06.839 and then i said to joaquin 0:16:03.680,0:16:10.560 maybe it's time to go and 0:16:06.839,0:16:14.079 and we didn't leave the hospital 0:16:10.560,0:16:17.839 because i had pre-campsia 0:16:14.079,0:16:20.639 so i needed to stay in the hospital 0:16:17.839,0:16:21.360 so they can monitor me and make sure 0:16:20.639,0:16:24.880 that 0:16:21.360,0:16:28.320 i got well before i was released and 0:16:24.880,0:16:33.600 could go home so when we 0:16:28.320,0:16:36.880 left meera in neonatal we went back to 0:16:33.600,0:16:40.800 the room where we got the news of 0:16:36.880,0:16:44.000 her not being able to survive and 0:16:40.800,0:16:44.000 at first i was 0:16:45.360,0:16:50.560 horrified that we were going back to 0:16:48.720,0:16:51.680 that room because i didn't want to go 0:16:50.560,0:16:54.800 back there 0:16:51.680,0:16:57.759 but as we talked about 0:16:54.800,0:16:58.959 therapy it was good to go back to that 0:16:57.759,0:17:02.399 room 0:16:58.959,0:17:04.720 because then the room wasn't 0:17:02.399,0:17:06.720 going to be this horrible room where we 0:17:04.720,0:17:09.760 got the horrible news 0:17:06.720,0:17:13.520 it was going to be a more neutral room 0:17:09.760,0:17:18.160 okay it's just a room it's not there 0:17:13.520,0:17:22.799 yeah so we spent another night there 0:17:18.160,0:17:26.480 and now it's sunday 0:17:22.799,0:17:29.600 and the doctor that was 0:17:26.480,0:17:33.600 with us when i delivered mira she came 0:17:29.600,0:17:37.039 into me and she just opened her arms 0:17:33.600,0:17:37.679 gave me this big hug and she told me 0:17:37.039,0:17:41.679 that 0:17:37.679,0:17:46.000 i am now going to be unprofessional 0:17:41.679,0:17:49.120 and what she told me there 0:17:46.000,0:17:52.160 it was she threw me a life 0:17:49.120,0:17:55.120 boy because i was drowning 0:17:52.160,0:17:57.679 but what she that she said to me it 0:17:55.120,0:18:01.200 helped me to survive 0:17:57.679,0:18:04.080 and she told me that 30 years ago 0:18:01.200,0:18:06.480 something like that she lost her first 0:18:04.080,0:18:06.480 baby 0:18:08.240,0:18:13.200 a baby boy and she wanted me to know 0:18:11.600,0:18:15.039 that 0:18:13.200,0:18:16.880 and she also wanted me to know that she 0:18:15.039,0:18:21.440 had children after 0:18:16.880,0:18:24.960 that baby boy and she wanted me to 0:18:21.440,0:18:29.039 keep that with me so i will 0:18:24.960,0:18:31.360 be able to move forward and to 0:18:29.039,0:18:32.320 think and have this thinking with me 0:18:31.360,0:18:36.480 that i 0:18:32.320,0:18:39.760 can have other children i can 0:18:36.480,0:18:42.960 go forward and try 0:18:39.760,0:18:46.240 more to have another child yeah and 0:18:42.960,0:18:49.200 that helped a lot 0:18:46.240,0:18:49.200 yeah sometimes these 0:18:49.280,0:18:52.480 almost unscripted moments yeah random 0:18:51.760,0:18:54.960 acts of 0:18:52.480,0:18:56.640 yeah unscripted moments like that where 0:18:54.960,0:18:59.440 i'm sure it would have been 0:18:56.640,0:19:01.360 a lot easier maybe not the right word 0:18:59.440,0:19:02.720 but as you say maybe more professional 0:19:01.360,0:19:05.760 to say nothing but 0:19:02.720,0:19:09.120 in times like that you often find that 0:19:05.760,0:19:11.360 the need to be professional almost 0:19:09.120,0:19:12.400 is superseded by the need to be a human 0:19:11.360,0:19:15.120 and to 0:19:12.400,0:19:16.799 to help someone else and as you say it's 0:19:15.120,0:19:18.320 helped you enormously to have had that 0:19:16.799,0:19:20.640 so thank goodness that 0:19:18.320,0:19:22.000 that she did so she made that choice to 0:19:20.640,0:19:25.520 humanize that moment 0:19:22.000,0:19:29.120 absolutely yeah yeah 0:19:25.520,0:19:32.799 because um another thing is that uh 0:19:29.120,0:19:36.240 here in sweden we have this organization 0:19:32.799,0:19:39.520 and infant organization 0:19:36.240,0:19:42.640 it's a pretty good translation and 0:19:39.520,0:19:46.640 so when meera died we had this bag 0:19:42.640,0:19:49.760 with information about them 0:19:46.640,0:19:50.480 and numbers and email addresses we could 0:19:49.760,0:19:53.520 reach out 0:19:50.480,0:19:56.880 to talk with other parents that 0:19:53.520,0:20:00.480 have lost children 0:19:56.880,0:20:01.520 so with that information about the 0:20:00.480,0:20:05.039 organization 0:20:01.520,0:20:08.480 and also the doctor's story 0:20:05.039,0:20:10.159 it helped us a lot to move forward from 0:20:08.480,0:20:13.280 that point 0:20:10.159,0:20:16.799 so when we went home 0:20:13.280,0:20:20.159 yeah we felt that the whole 0:20:16.799,0:20:20.720 whole world was standing still so going 0:20:20.159,0:20:23.520 out 0:20:20.720,0:20:24.880 from the hospital it felt so weird 0:20:23.520,0:20:27.280 because 0:20:24.880,0:20:28.080 people were moving around they were 0:20:27.280,0:20:31.760 talking 0:20:28.080,0:20:31.760 like nothing had happened yeah 0:20:32.080,0:20:35.120 like did these people not know what 0:20:33.760,0:20:36.880 you'd been through did they not 0:20:35.120,0:20:38.400 understand 0:20:36.880,0:20:39.919 how dare they get on with their lives 0:20:38.400,0:20:42.159 like okay like 0:20:39.919,0:20:43.840 yeah you just get that because you've 0:20:42.159,0:20:44.600 been through ever that moment and it's 0:20:43.840,0:20:47.200 been so 0:20:44.600,0:20:49.200 life-hiring for you that everybody 0:20:47.200,0:20:49.760 should understand how you feel in that 0:20:49.200,0:20:53.679 moment 0:20:49.760,0:20:56.799 yeah yeah so i was so angry 0:20:53.679,0:20:59.360 at the people i could see because 0:20:56.799,0:21:00.080 i wanted to scream why why are you 0:20:59.360,0:21:02.960 continue 0:21:00.080,0:21:05.360 with your life why don't you stop and 0:21:02.960,0:21:08.159 think for a moment how 0:21:05.360,0:21:08.960 everything can just shatter in a moment 0:21:08.159,0:21:13.120 yeah 0:21:08.960,0:21:13.120 yeah so but we kept 0:21:13.840,0:21:18.080 everything inside and i went to the 0:21:17.360,0:21:21.360 pharmacy 0:21:18.080,0:21:25.679 to get some painkillers 0:21:21.360,0:21:29.120 and other things i needed and 0:21:25.679,0:21:30.000 i was asked for what do you need the 0:21:29.120,0:21:33.919 painkillers and 0:21:30.000,0:21:36.880 i was yeah i have just given birth 0:21:33.919,0:21:39.039 and she asked well are you going to 0:21:36.880,0:21:42.159 breastfeed 0:21:39.039,0:21:43.679 no i am not going to breastfeed 0:21:42.159,0:21:45.120 you'd think there would be some kind of 0:21:43.679,0:21:46.480 letter that you could give to a 0:21:45.120,0:21:48.480 pharmacist in that moment 0:21:46.480,0:21:49.840 to say i don't really want to talk about 0:21:48.480,0:21:52.159 this yes 0:21:49.840,0:21:52.880 here's what's happened just give me the 0:21:52.159,0:21:56.159 things i need 0:21:52.880,0:21:57.679 please yeah like yeah it seems 0:21:56.159,0:21:59.520 i know it's not insensitive they need to 0:21:57.679,0:22:01.200 ask these questions but 0:21:59.520,0:22:02.799 you would like to feel some kind of 0:22:01.200,0:22:04.400 protocol 0:22:02.799,0:22:06.400 where you hand over a certain color 0:22:04.400,0:22:08.159 piece of paper or you have to you like 0:22:06.400,0:22:10.080 even a sticker on your nose you know 0:22:08.159,0:22:12.240 something that says 0:22:10.080,0:22:13.600 discreet enough to avoid something 0:22:12.240,0:22:15.200 different enough that nobody would know 0:22:13.600,0:22:18.320 what it was but they would know 0:22:15.200,0:22:19.600 right okay right let's let's let's be a 0:22:18.320,0:22:22.640 bit more 0:22:19.600,0:22:26.640 kit gloves here yeah sensitive 0:22:22.640,0:22:29.360 yeah yeah so yeah it was kind of 0:22:26.640,0:22:29.679 a miracle that i didn't break down there 0:22:29.360,0:22:32.400 and 0:22:29.679,0:22:33.600 start crying but i was like yeah um i'm 0:22:32.400,0:22:37.120 not going to breastfeed 0:22:33.600,0:22:40.320 just give me the stuff so i can go home 0:22:37.120,0:22:43.440 um we did one thing that was 0:22:40.320,0:22:46.240 very difficult to do before we went home 0:22:43.440,0:22:46.720 we went to a shopping center and we 0:22:46.240,0:22:50.320 bought 0:22:46.720,0:22:53.360 some frames uh for the pictures 0:22:50.320,0:22:57.039 the pictures yeah so we could put them 0:22:53.360,0:23:00.320 in there as soon as we printed the 0:22:57.039,0:23:02.880 the pictures we had ourselves and 0:23:00.320,0:23:03.679 when the photographs were coming we 0:23:02.880,0:23:06.720 could 0:23:03.679,0:23:10.000 put them also in frames so we did that 0:23:06.720,0:23:11.919 and then we went home and we all still 0:23:10.000,0:23:14.240 were kim's parents to meet the stars so 0:23:11.919,0:23:16.159 we didn't have to go home to this empty 0:23:14.240,0:23:18.880 silent home 0:23:16.159,0:23:19.520 and we are so thankful for them meeting 0:23:18.880,0:23:23.440 us star 0:23:19.520,0:23:26.640 being there when we went home 0:23:23.440,0:23:30.960 and yeah we 0:23:26.640,0:23:34.799 held a funeral uh a month later 0:23:30.960,0:23:35.440 and when we when i gave birth to mira it 0:23:34.799,0:23:37.760 wasn't 0:23:35.440,0:23:39.440 that much snow it was a little snow but 0:23:37.760,0:23:43.440 not much 0:23:39.440,0:23:46.960 and then there came a snowstorm 0:23:43.440,0:23:48.840 so it was a lot of snow the day we had 0:23:46.960,0:23:51.840 the funeral 0:23:48.840,0:23:55.039 and this day joaquin 0:23:51.840,0:23:58.960 and i shared our first yoke 0:23:55.039,0:24:02.080 uh after her or that 0:23:58.960,0:24:05.440 sort of healing for us to be able to 0:24:02.080,0:24:08.880 laugh again and it was a 0:24:05.440,0:24:12.960 very beautiful day and the 0:24:08.880,0:24:16.400 sun shined for a moment and 0:24:12.960,0:24:20.480 the snow was glittering it was a totally 0:24:16.400,0:24:23.279 white winter wonderland so beautiful 0:24:20.480,0:24:24.159 and then you walk inside i think mira 0:24:23.279,0:24:26.720 loves snow 0:24:24.159,0:24:28.960 because she has sent the snow here from 0:24:26.720,0:24:32.000 herron 0:24:28.960,0:24:35.679 and i answered well either that she 0:24:32.000,0:24:40.320 knows no or she hates snows 0:24:35.679,0:24:40.320 how the snow in heaven she sent it to us 0:24:42.159,0:24:48.720 so yeah it was a good moment 0:24:45.360,0:24:53.039 to make the first yoke 0:24:48.720,0:24:56.960 so we could start heal properly 0:24:53.039,0:24:56.960 yeah it sounds like 0:24:57.039,0:25:00.320 like we said before that's such a an 0:24:59.520,0:25:03.279 emotional 0:25:00.320,0:25:04.640 roller coaster for for of course you and 0:25:03.279,0:25:06.720 your family and for for 0:25:04.640,0:25:07.840 us carrying out this interview and for 0:25:06.720,0:25:10.720 you listening and 0:25:07.840,0:25:12.840 you speak about starting to heal um how 0:25:10.720,0:25:15.200 much time has passed 0:25:12.840,0:25:17.440 since the experience you just told us 0:25:15.200,0:25:17.440 about 0:25:18.320,0:25:26.400 in march it will be 0:25:22.000,0:25:29.679 three years since the funeral okay 0:25:26.400,0:25:31.520 do you feel i 0:25:29.679,0:25:34.000 imagine it's very difficult to quantify 0:25:31.520,0:25:36.799 something like this but 0:25:34.000,0:25:38.240 when you think back to how you felt then 0:25:36.799,0:25:40.559 perhaps on the day of the funeral the 0:25:38.240,0:25:42.559 day you just described compared to 0:25:40.559,0:25:44.159 how you feel now what's the what's the 0:25:42.559,0:25:45.279 journey been like what's the healing 0:25:44.159,0:25:48.720 process if that's that's 0:25:45.279,0:25:54.480 the correct term been like for you both 0:25:48.720,0:25:54.480 it's been uh horrible from time to time 0:25:54.799,0:26:01.039 as i told you um the last time i am a 0:25:57.919,0:26:04.400 preschool teacher so 0:26:01.039,0:26:05.360 i work with kids that are as young as 0:26:04.400,0:26:08.720 one year old 0:26:05.360,0:26:12.159 and the oldest are five-year-olds 0:26:08.720,0:26:12.159 and i develop 0:26:12.640,0:26:18.799 how do you say developed yeah thank you 0:26:16.320,0:26:24.080 no problem don't ask me to say again 0:26:18.799,0:26:27.279 better my swedish 0:26:24.080,0:26:28.400 well uh i want to go into that now let's 0:26:27.279,0:26:32.320 let's not go there 0:26:28.400,0:26:32.320 let's stick to english you developed 0:26:33.039,0:26:41.440 and i got ptsd 0:26:37.039,0:26:44.559 post-traumatic stress disorder 0:26:41.440,0:26:46.960 and because of that i was working with 0:26:44.559,0:26:46.960 kids 0:26:47.520,0:26:51.120 again i can only imagine how difficult 0:26:49.520,0:26:53.520 that must be 0:26:51.120,0:26:55.440 to see children on a day-to-day break 0:26:53.520,0:26:59.760 basis especially in the age group 0:26:55.440,0:27:02.400 that your daughter would be in um 0:26:59.760,0:27:04.240 i mean i did your employers kind of 0:27:02.400,0:27:05.679 understand 0:27:04.240,0:27:08.240 what you were going through did you had 0:27:05.679,0:27:10.080 you shared that with them or 0:27:08.240,0:27:11.440 because to me obviously having had this 0:27:10.080,0:27:13.520 conversation with you it seems 0:27:11.440,0:27:15.520 obvious that that would be a difficult 0:27:13.520,0:27:17.840 thing but would they 0:27:15.520,0:27:18.640 did they show you some kind of empathy 0:27:17.840,0:27:22.640 or 0:27:18.640,0:27:25.919 or the understanding about the situation 0:27:22.640,0:27:29.120 well this is a story 0:27:25.919,0:27:32.320 a part of my story that 0:27:29.120,0:27:35.600 gets me really upset and angry because 0:27:32.320,0:27:38.159 at first i was given a lot of um 0:27:35.600,0:27:38.159 empathy 0:27:39.360,0:27:46.799 well they were understanding thank you 0:27:42.960,0:27:49.919 and they did understand that i was 0:27:46.799,0:27:53.039 grieving and i was sad and 0:27:49.919,0:27:55.360 i asked the first thing i asked was 0:27:53.039,0:27:56.480 please don't make me go back to the 0:27:55.360,0:27:59.679 preschool 0:27:56.480,0:28:02.159 i could do anything else but please 0:27:59.679,0:28:02.880 i don't want to go back there i can't do 0:28:02.159,0:28:06.480 that 0:28:02.880,0:28:10.000 any any other job i'll make tea just 0:28:06.480,0:28:11.919 please don't send me back there yeah i i 0:28:10.000,0:28:13.039 i mean i i didn't go through it but i 0:28:11.919,0:28:15.520 feel like i've been through it with you 0:28:13.039,0:28:19.279 and i understand 0:28:15.520,0:28:23.120 you think they would understand yeah um 0:28:19.279,0:28:26.640 but the doctors and my boss 0:28:23.120,0:28:29.919 my parents like everyone 0:28:26.640,0:28:30.960 uh told me you need to go back there 0:28:29.919,0:28:34.159 because 0:28:30.960,0:28:37.440 you know the kids you know the parents 0:28:34.159,0:28:39.120 and you have the safety with your 0:28:37.440,0:28:42.559 co-workers 0:28:39.120,0:28:45.039 and i was yeah i don't care about that 0:28:42.559,0:28:45.760 i don't care about knowing everything 0:28:45.039,0:28:49.120 there 0:28:45.760,0:28:53.919 i don't want to go back there but 0:28:49.120,0:28:58.000 i was kind of forced to go back there 0:28:53.919,0:29:01.919 and at first i was 0:28:58.000,0:29:06.000 just working 20 hours a week 0:29:01.919,0:29:09.919 and and i was supposed to do that 0:29:06.000,0:29:13.279 to summer so i started to work in may 0:29:09.919,0:29:16.640 2nd of may and 0:29:13.279,0:29:19.679 i didn't go every day some days 0:29:16.640,0:29:21.760 i couldn't get up from bed i 0:29:19.679,0:29:22.960 got up from bed i went to the bathroom 0:29:21.760,0:29:25.520 and then i just 0:29:22.960,0:29:26.720 go back to bed and later i couldn't do 0:29:25.520,0:29:30.000 anything 0:29:26.720,0:29:33.120 some days i started to drive to work 0:29:30.000,0:29:35.600 because that's also the one thing i 0:29:33.120,0:29:37.520 have to drive to my work there is no 0:29:35.600,0:29:40.799 other way for me to get there 0:29:37.520,0:29:44.159 so driving was also difficult 0:29:40.799,0:29:44.640 so some days i started driving and then 0:29:44.159,0:29:47.039 i was 0:29:44.640,0:29:48.559 no i'm turned back i'm not going to work 0:29:47.039,0:29:51.279 today 0:29:48.559,0:29:52.240 and i had days that i could go to work 0:29:51.279,0:29:55.840 and be there 0:29:52.240,0:29:58.960 and being with the children and 0:29:55.840,0:30:03.760 going home after four hours 0:29:58.960,0:30:03.760 five hours and feel okay 0:30:03.840,0:30:12.000 and then i start to feel this 0:30:07.760,0:30:16.640 weird emotion that something is wrong 0:30:12.000,0:30:20.000 i don't i can't be close to the kids 0:30:16.640,0:30:22.880 the thing with young children is that 0:30:20.000,0:30:24.000 when they feel safe with you they want 0:30:22.880,0:30:26.559 to be 0:30:24.000,0:30:28.000 close to you when they like you so the 0:30:26.559,0:30:30.880 kids they wanted to sit 0:30:28.000,0:30:31.919 next to me they wanted to sit in my lap 0:30:30.880,0:30:35.039 they wanted to hug 0:30:31.919,0:30:36.000 me and stuff like that normally 0:30:35.039,0:30:38.080 something that would be 0:30:36.000,0:30:39.120 endearing and something that would make 0:30:38.080,0:30:41.600 you 0:30:39.120,0:30:42.559 would also almost make your heart warm 0:30:41.600,0:30:46.480 um 0:30:42.559,0:30:48.960 it's not causing you pain yeah yeah 0:30:46.480,0:30:50.240 so i started to realize that i was when 0:30:48.960,0:30:54.000 the kids were 0:30:50.240,0:30:57.039 sitting next to me i was scooping away i 0:30:54.000,0:31:00.080 didn't want them to touch me 0:30:57.039,0:31:03.440 and yeah it 0:31:00.080,0:31:07.200 became emotions that 0:31:03.440,0:31:10.399 became voices in my head is in such 0:31:07.200,0:31:13.919 a way and it 0:31:10.399,0:31:16.960 turned to this day that we were 0:31:13.919,0:31:20.960 it was summer now and 0:31:16.960,0:31:24.799 we were outside a really warm day 0:31:20.960,0:31:28.480 and i heard a a 0:31:24.799,0:31:31.760 a young boy he was one one years old 0:31:28.480,0:31:32.880 so he has started preschool and his 0:31:31.760,0:31:35.679 teacher had 0:31:32.880,0:31:36.480 laid him in a stroller to sleep and he 0:31:35.679,0:31:39.840 woke up and 0:31:36.480,0:31:42.880 he was crying at first i tried to 0:31:39.840,0:31:45.039 get contact with the other teachers 0:31:42.880,0:31:46.240 around me and to let them know that he 0:31:45.039,0:31:49.679 was crying 0:31:46.240,0:31:51.519 and no one was hearing so i went back to 0:31:49.679,0:31:53.840 the stroller and tried to 0:31:51.519,0:31:54.880 suit him again sleeping without picking 0:31:53.840,0:31:59.760 me up 0:31:54.880,0:32:02.960 and it didn't work so i picked him up 0:31:59.760,0:32:06.159 and i went to uh this big stone 0:32:02.960,0:32:09.519 that i could sit down on and 0:32:06.159,0:32:13.200 had him in his my lap and this child 0:32:09.519,0:32:16.799 he didn't know me because i was in an 0:32:13.200,0:32:16.799 other department 0:32:18.159,0:32:22.240 but it was like he felt safe with me 0:32:21.440,0:32:26.880 because he was 0:32:22.240,0:32:31.200 relaxing in my lap and that was when i 0:32:26.880,0:32:34.240 knew that i can't do this anymore 0:32:31.200,0:32:36.480 because in this moment i got scared of 0:32:34.240,0:32:40.559 myself 0:32:36.480,0:32:43.039 my emotions got into voices 0:32:40.559,0:32:43.600 and those voices told me to pick this 0:32:43.039,0:32:47.760 child 0:32:43.600,0:32:51.120 up and throw him into a tree 0:32:47.760,0:32:55.279 standing two meters from me okay okay 0:32:51.120,0:32:57.760 and this was so scary i have never been 0:32:55.279,0:33:00.960 that scared in my life about myself 0:32:57.760,0:33:00.960 about my actions 0:33:02.000,0:33:05.840 i was able to put him back into the 0:33:04.960,0:33:08.000 stroller 0:33:05.840,0:33:09.360 i went to the other teacher and said you 0:33:08.000,0:33:13.519 need to take care of him 0:33:09.360,0:33:17.360 i need to go in i can't be here anymore 0:33:13.519,0:33:19.919 so i went inside and i was 0:33:17.360,0:33:20.880 lucky in that way i didn't break down 0:33:19.919,0:33:23.679 until i got 0:33:20.880,0:33:24.080 into this room where we have our break 0:33:23.679,0:33:27.840 and break 0:33:24.080,0:33:30.880 times and there i just broke down 0:33:27.840,0:33:34.080 and i was he knew that i can't i can't 0:33:30.880,0:33:35.760 do this anymore i can't come back here 0:33:34.080,0:33:37.279 so i called my boss and told her 0:33:35.760,0:33:40.799 everything and said that 0:33:37.279,0:33:43.760 this can't go on anymore and she said no 0:33:40.799,0:33:46.159 no of course not and we had a meeting 0:33:43.760,0:33:50.320 and she said you need professional help 0:33:46.159,0:33:53.279 yeah i do that yeah i 0:33:50.320,0:33:53.679 called my insurance company and asked 0:33:53.279,0:33:59.120 them 0:33:53.679,0:34:01.679 to get in touch with a psychologist 0:33:59.120,0:34:03.679 up until that point we had gone to a 0:34:01.679,0:34:06.799 therapist at a hospital 0:34:03.679,0:34:10.000 but i needed more help because 0:34:06.799,0:34:13.280 of the ptsd and my 0:34:10.000,0:34:16.480 reactions with the kids 0:34:13.280,0:34:20.800 so i was home again 0:34:16.480,0:34:24.159 full time i went to the psychologist 0:34:20.800,0:34:27.280 who told me that yeah you have ptsd 0:34:24.159,0:34:30.639 and she gave me help 0:34:27.280,0:34:34.240 to handle that 0:34:30.639,0:34:37.119 and also to handle 0:34:34.240,0:34:38.079 all those emotions that had turned into 0:34:37.119,0:34:41.280 negative 0:34:38.079,0:34:43.919 emotions from the birth 0:34:41.280,0:34:44.720 so she helped me turn them into positive 0:34:43.919,0:34:49.280 emotions 0:34:44.720,0:34:52.720 and that was really great because 0:34:49.280,0:34:55.599 now i can remember 0:34:52.720,0:34:56.240 the time with mira with love and happy 0:34:55.599,0:34:59.520 thoughts 0:34:56.240,0:35:02.560 instead of all this anger and 0:34:59.520,0:35:05.359 sadness so she was really helpful 0:35:02.560,0:35:08.240 uh and she i she's told me that i was 0:35:05.359,0:35:11.040 the first person she helped with 0:35:08.240,0:35:12.800 the loss of a child but she helped a lot 0:35:11.040,0:35:15.359 of people with ptsd 0:35:12.800,0:35:17.359 so she was really good that's really 0:35:15.359,0:35:19.520 good and i imagine 0:35:17.359,0:35:21.359 should you may not be the last person 0:35:19.520,0:35:23.280 that she has to help with such a 0:35:21.359,0:35:24.720 situation so it will have been useful 0:35:23.280,0:35:26.160 for her as well to 0:35:24.720,0:35:27.680 i've had the experience of helping you 0:35:26.160,0:35:28.960 which will hopefully turn going to help 0:35:27.680,0:35:30.480 others so 0:35:28.960,0:35:32.000 yeah i'm really glad you'll be able to 0:35:30.480,0:35:33.520 get that help it does sound the 0:35:32.000,0:35:34.640 experience you spoke about picking up 0:35:33.520,0:35:37.760 the child 0:35:34.640,0:35:40.800 and having that thought must have been 0:35:37.760,0:35:41.599 terrifying you said yourself i'm just 0:35:40.800,0:35:43.359 glad that 0:35:41.599,0:35:45.359 obviously you didn't carry through i 0:35:43.359,0:35:48.160 mean that as easily as possible 0:35:45.359,0:35:50.079 in that moment that moment of insanity 0:35:48.160,0:35:51.200 you could have 0:35:50.079,0:35:54.160 you could have followed through with 0:35:51.200,0:35:56.880 that thought process and um 0:35:54.160,0:35:57.760 i mean thank goodness he didn't but i 0:35:56.880,0:36:00.640 can imagine 0:35:57.760,0:36:02.240 for your own uh your own experience and 0:36:00.640,0:36:03.920 that's exactly why you had to walk away 0:36:02.240,0:36:04.880 because you had frightened yourself in 0:36:03.920,0:36:07.839 that moment 0:36:04.880,0:36:08.480 yeah and again your storytelling is so 0:36:07.839,0:36:11.440 good 0:36:08.480,0:36:11.760 that thank you it feels like we're with 0:36:11.440,0:36:15.680 you 0:36:11.760,0:36:17.599 in every step of this and um 0:36:15.680,0:36:19.760 that's a testament to you as well but 0:36:17.599,0:36:19.760 the 0:36:20.640,0:36:24.000 the psychologist has clearly helped you 0:36:22.400,0:36:27.040 with that and 0:36:24.000,0:36:28.320 and it's just such it's such a positive 0:36:27.040,0:36:28.720 thing we talked about this just before 0:36:28.320,0:36:31.599 we 0:36:28.720,0:36:32.640 um in this in this episode that um 0:36:31.599,0:36:34.240 you've been able to switch that 0:36:32.640,0:36:37.280 negativity into positivity 0:36:34.240,0:36:38.480 is just a it's like it's a gift and i 0:36:37.280,0:36:40.240 think 0:36:38.480,0:36:41.760 it's it's incredible really what 0:36:40.240,0:36:44.000 psychology can do 0:36:41.760,0:36:46.000 yeah is that something you've you have 0:36:44.000,0:36:49.280 to consciously do 0:36:46.000,0:36:50.800 do you have to consciously think of a 0:36:49.280,0:36:51.760 positive or is that something that's 0:36:50.800,0:36:54.160 come about 0:36:51.760,0:36:56.720 as a result of the work you've done and 0:36:54.160,0:36:59.599 now it happens naturally 0:36:56.720,0:37:00.160 today it happens naturally thanks for 0:36:59.599,0:37:03.520 the help 0:37:00.160,0:37:06.079 i got from the psychologist and 0:37:03.520,0:37:08.480 during all the therapy sessions i had 0:37:06.079,0:37:12.880 been through uh 0:37:08.480,0:37:15.359 talks talk about this it really helps 0:37:12.880,0:37:16.880 it helps me to come to the place where i 0:37:15.359,0:37:21.200 am today 0:37:16.880,0:37:23.599 okay what is your work situation 0:37:21.200,0:37:24.480 like now you spoke about feeling the 0:37:23.599,0:37:29.040 need to 0:37:24.480,0:37:32.320 to leave your job yeah um 0:37:29.040,0:37:35.599 when i left my work i didn't 0:37:32.320,0:37:38.880 leave in that way that i wouldn't 0:37:35.599,0:37:43.440 never come back i got this 0:37:38.880,0:37:47.119 unpaid vacation to try another work 0:37:43.440,0:37:50.240 so i did that for a couple of months 0:37:47.119,0:37:53.280 um so i was sitting in a office uh 0:37:50.240,0:37:55.839 talking on the phone emailing helping 0:37:53.280,0:37:56.560 customers with their problems uh online 0:37:55.839,0:38:00.320 shopping 0:37:56.560,0:38:03.440 wow or a wife completely different 0:38:00.320,0:38:07.040 yeah clearly what you needed at the time 0:38:03.440,0:38:08.000 yeah it was good for me to do that a 0:38:07.040,0:38:10.560 couple of months 0:38:08.000,0:38:12.240 because i was getting help from the 0:38:10.560,0:38:15.680 psychologist 0:38:12.240,0:38:16.240 during that time and when i had a free 0:38:15.680,0:38:19.440 time 0:38:16.240,0:38:22.560 i went back to the preschool to visit 0:38:19.440,0:38:25.839 to see how it felt when 0:38:22.560,0:38:28.320 i got all the help and i started 0:38:25.839,0:38:29.200 to miss the children i started to miss 0:38:28.320,0:38:33.040 being there 0:38:29.200,0:38:36.400 in the preschool seeing their smiles and 0:38:33.040,0:38:39.200 hearing them calling my name when i come 0:38:36.400,0:38:43.920 to work and stuff like that 0:38:39.200,0:38:47.119 so finally in december 2018 0:38:43.920,0:38:50.960 almost a year after lucy mira i 0:38:47.119,0:38:55.760 went back and it didn't 0:38:50.960,0:38:58.320 go as well as i hoped so 0:38:55.760,0:38:59.440 a couple of months later i said no 0:38:58.320,0:39:03.440 [Music] 0:38:59.440,0:39:05.839 yeah this preschool is no good for me 0:39:03.440,0:39:07.680 if i'm going to continue my work as a 0:39:05.839,0:39:11.680 preschool teacher i need to change 0:39:07.680,0:39:11.680 preschool and 0:39:11.760,0:39:15.760 what was it that was causing that 0:39:13.440,0:39:16.400 feeling is it just the familiarity of 0:39:15.760,0:39:18.400 the staff 0:39:16.400,0:39:20.240 or the place or what was it that was 0:39:18.400,0:39:23.440 making you want to move on 0:39:20.240,0:39:26.480 it was the parents of the children 0:39:23.440,0:39:29.920 and the preschool itself 0:39:26.480,0:39:32.720 the environment there 0:39:29.920,0:39:33.280 it was those parts meeting the parents 0:39:32.720,0:39:38.000 that 0:39:33.280,0:39:41.280 knew all about mira it was really hard 0:39:38.000,0:39:46.320 we told them to not talk with me about 0:39:41.280,0:39:49.040 my loss but there's some ebook 0:39:46.320,0:39:49.599 this is true i imagine some of the some 0:39:49.040,0:39:52.400 of the cheap 0:39:49.599,0:39:53.520 things they're helping they think oh 0:39:52.400,0:39:56.560 yeah 0:39:53.520,0:39:58.240 yeah absolutely they can do but 0:39:56.560,0:40:00.880 i imagine some of the children as well 0:39:58.240,0:40:03.599 may have well i've seen you 0:40:00.880,0:40:05.680 become more and more pregnant and then 0:40:03.599,0:40:11.040 suddenly you're not pregnant and maybe 0:40:05.680,0:40:14.160 they didn't have the the ability to 0:40:11.040,0:40:18.000 to question that i'm not sure 0:40:14.160,0:40:21.520 the wonderful thing with children is 0:40:18.000,0:40:24.800 they take everything so 0:40:21.520,0:40:28.720 clearly in a way it's 0:40:24.800,0:40:31.040 kind of black or white 0:40:28.720,0:40:32.560 when you tell something they believe in 0:40:31.040,0:40:35.760 it 0:40:32.560,0:40:39.200 so the kids were wonderful 0:40:35.760,0:40:43.119 i have this moment when 0:40:39.200,0:40:46.560 we are sitting and eating lunch 0:40:43.119,0:40:49.920 and there is a parent death 0:40:46.560,0:40:53.760 in the preschool that also tries 0:40:49.920,0:40:55.040 for kids and she just learns that she's 0:40:53.760,0:40:57.280 going to have twins 0:40:55.040,0:40:58.880 and then she lose them really early in 0:40:57.280,0:41:02.160 the pregnancy 0:40:58.880,0:41:05.760 and her daughter and she said 0:41:02.160,0:41:10.960 in this lunch time my mother 0:41:05.760,0:41:13.200 lost her baby and this girl she didn't 0:41:10.960,0:41:15.280 know about me and losing my kids she was 0:41:13.200,0:41:18.400 too young for that at the time 0:41:15.280,0:41:21.599 but i had this other boy and he 0:41:18.400,0:41:22.480 turned five that year so he knew about 0:41:21.599,0:41:26.319 me 0:41:22.480,0:41:30.000 so he listened to this girl and then he 0:41:26.319,0:41:33.440 looked at me and he said do you think 0:41:30.000,0:41:36.240 the famous author of the lindgren 0:41:33.440,0:41:36.560 that wrote people long striking if you 0:41:36.240,0:41:40.640 know 0:41:36.560,0:41:45.040 those books those are really famous uh 0:41:40.640,0:41:48.560 in sweden uh so and where i work 0:41:45.040,0:41:49.280 she is her birthplace so we read her 0:41:48.560,0:41:52.400 books 0:41:49.280,0:41:55.599 very much so pipi longstocking 0:41:52.400,0:41:56.720 if you ever agree them i'm aware of pepe 0:41:55.599,0:42:00.560 longstocking 0:41:56.720,0:42:03.839 yeah good well 0:42:00.560,0:42:05.200 the boy he asked me do you think that 0:42:03.839,0:42:09.520 astrid lindgren 0:42:05.200,0:42:12.880 is taking care of your baby in heaven 0:42:09.520,0:42:13.839 and i almost put down crying because 0:42:12.880,0:42:17.119 that was 0:42:13.839,0:42:20.079 such a beautiful thing to say 0:42:17.119,0:42:21.280 and that's the thing with kids they say 0:42:20.079,0:42:23.200 those things 0:42:21.280,0:42:24.720 they have these thoughts and they just 0:42:23.200,0:42:27.200 say them and 0:42:24.720,0:42:28.319 it's beautiful so the kids are not the 0:42:27.200,0:42:32.720 problem for me 0:42:28.319,0:42:36.160 okay not that this time it's the parents 0:42:32.720,0:42:38.720 and the environment the word 0:42:36.160,0:42:40.160 purity springs to mind with something 0:42:38.720,0:42:41.680 like that 0:42:40.160,0:42:44.079 like you said before it's it's almost 0:42:41.680,0:42:47.760 black and white and 0:42:44.079,0:42:51.920 yeah it just it just seems like such a 0:42:47.760,0:42:55.040 pure and innocent and yeah 0:42:51.920,0:42:58.400 you know instinctual i'm not sure 0:42:55.040,0:42:59.359 thing to say thank goodness it was said 0:42:58.400,0:43:03.280 as well because 0:42:59.359,0:43:07.119 i imagine it it did you some good 0:43:03.280,0:43:11.520 it did um 0:43:07.119,0:43:14.800 to have those natural questions that's 0:43:11.520,0:43:17.200 pure and innocent like you say um it's 0:43:14.800,0:43:21.040 so nice to have them 0:43:17.200,0:43:24.240 because all adults 0:43:21.040,0:43:26.960 they are like either oh no we can't 0:43:24.240,0:43:28.560 talk about this it's dangerous no no no 0:43:26.960,0:43:30.240 no 0:43:28.560,0:43:32.079 you're not supposed to talk about 0:43:30.240,0:43:34.800 infertility and you're not 0:43:32.079,0:43:36.640 absolutely not supposed to talk about 0:43:34.800,0:43:40.000 losing child 0:43:36.640,0:43:43.720 children it's nothing you can talk 0:43:40.000,0:43:46.640 about and i want to show that 0:43:43.720,0:43:49.359 absolutely talk about those things you 0:43:46.640,0:43:52.240 need to talk about them 0:43:49.359,0:43:55.359 because it's so common why do you think 0:43:52.240,0:43:58.560 that is that there's such a 0:43:55.359,0:43:58.560 a stigma such a 0:43:59.200,0:44:02.960 a desire not to have those conversations 0:44:02.240,0:44:06.319 that are 0:44:02.960,0:44:06.319 so real and so powerful 0:44:07.200,0:44:11.200 i think it's uh because 0:44:11.280,0:44:17.520 like 50 years ago when 0:44:14.960,0:44:18.160 you didn't uh you weren't able to have 0:44:17.520,0:44:21.280 kids 0:44:18.160,0:44:23.760 you adopt okay because that's the 0:44:21.280,0:44:24.640 was the way to have children if you 0:44:23.760,0:44:28.160 couldn't have them 0:44:24.640,0:44:32.480 on your own and and 0:44:28.160,0:44:35.119 if you look if you did lose a child 0:44:32.480,0:44:36.960 the hospital hospital told you the 0:44:35.119,0:44:40.640 doctors or the midwives or 0:44:36.960,0:44:40.640 whoever you met they told you to 0:44:40.720,0:44:44.880 just go home and start making another 0:44:43.520,0:44:48.240 child 0:44:44.880,0:44:49.760 forget about the child so people didn't 0:44:48.240,0:44:52.800 talk about it 0:44:49.760,0:44:55.839 it wasn't in sweden it wasn't until the 0:44:52.800,0:44:57.520 80s until you really started talking 0:44:55.839,0:45:01.040 about it 0:44:57.520,0:45:03.760 and as i told you the last time 0:45:01.040,0:45:05.280 my parents have the experience of losing 0:45:03.760,0:45:08.560 twins 0:45:05.280,0:45:10.480 and my father has 0:45:08.560,0:45:11.599 almost never talked about it but my 0:45:10.480,0:45:15.040 mother has 0:45:11.599,0:45:15.760 talked about it a couple of times so i 0:45:15.040,0:45:18.800 grew up 0:45:15.760,0:45:19.520 no knowing that i have the older 0:45:18.800,0:45:23.520 siblings 0:45:19.520,0:45:27.680 in heaven and i knew about them 0:45:23.520,0:45:29.680 but not much more than that because 0:45:27.680,0:45:32.000 my mother was supposed to just move 0:45:29.680,0:45:35.200 forward forget about twins and 0:45:32.000,0:45:36.160 have other children sure i think there's 0:45:35.200,0:45:38.640 examples of 0:45:36.160,0:45:40.480 um especially in britain we're seen as 0:45:38.640,0:45:42.720 quite a stuffy nation 0:45:40.480,0:45:43.520 uh we don't talk about sex we don't talk 0:45:42.720,0:45:46.079 about 0:45:43.520,0:45:46.880 death we don't talk about like feelings 0:45:46.079,0:45:49.280 feelings 0:45:46.880,0:45:50.160 or yeah we just kind of um the 0:45:49.280,0:45:52.960 traditional 0:45:50.160,0:45:53.359 view on that is keep it to yourself um 0:45:52.960,0:45:55.119 and 0:45:53.359,0:45:57.680 moan about it on facebook it seems to be 0:45:55.119,0:46:00.720 yeah stiff upper lip i think 0:45:57.680,0:46:04.240 that's difficult um 0:46:00.720,0:46:09.119 i assume it's come from 0:46:04.240,0:46:10.160 a social grace or like a set of social 0:46:09.119,0:46:13.440 rules that 0:46:10.160,0:46:16.640 came at that time that a better date now 0:46:13.440,0:46:17.200 and yep and obviously we've moved on a 0:46:16.640,0:46:21.359 lot even 0:46:17.200,0:46:24.880 even in even the last 10 years 0:46:21.359,0:46:26.720 like a lot has changed in psychology and 0:46:24.880,0:46:28.640 how we feel like we should treat even 0:46:26.720,0:46:30.720 children i can in britain at the moment 0:46:28.640,0:46:32.480 it's it's there's uh 0:46:30.720,0:46:34.480 you shouldn't uh hit your child you know 0:46:32.480,0:46:38.160 there shouldn't be any spanking or 0:46:34.480,0:46:40.720 smacking of the child um for 0:46:38.160,0:46:41.680 uh you know for like like a corporal 0:46:40.720,0:46:43.359 punishment thing 0:46:41.680,0:46:44.480 it's just been made illegal in scotland 0:46:43.359,0:46:45.839 yeah it's been a made illegal in 0:46:44.480,0:46:50.560 scotland 0:46:45.839,0:46:53.040 um so like they're moving forward in 0:46:50.560,0:46:54.839 in ways that probably even 10 years ago 0:46:53.040,0:46:58.000 people would have been like 0:46:54.839,0:47:00.640 what so i think as 0:46:58.000,0:47:02.800 as we move forward as as obviously 0:47:00.640,0:47:05.359 sweden as well as a different nation but 0:47:02.800,0:47:07.119 as as communities move forward and 0:47:05.359,0:47:08.880 people are more open about talking about 0:47:07.119,0:47:10.240 things and hopefully because of things 0:47:08.880,0:47:12.880 like what we're doing here where we're 0:47:10.240,0:47:14.960 having this open dialogue about 0:47:12.880,0:47:16.400 things that most people find difficult 0:47:14.960,0:47:18.160 to talk about or have 0:47:16.400,0:47:19.520 avoided talking about for whatever 0:47:18.160,0:47:22.640 reason whether it be 0:47:19.520,0:47:24.079 a stigma or because of some 0:47:22.640,0:47:25.839 other reason that's stopping them from 0:47:24.079,0:47:27.839 wanting to talk 0:47:25.839,0:47:29.520 um i'm not saying that this is going to 0:47:27.839,0:47:30.319 change our podcast is going to change 0:47:29.520,0:47:32.800 the world 0:47:30.319,0:47:34.400 at night but the fact the fact that 0:47:32.800,0:47:36.000 we're willing to do this 0:47:34.400,0:47:38.319 i think is a step forward in the right 0:47:36.000,0:47:40.720 direction and shows 0:47:38.319,0:47:41.760 that people do want to chat people do 0:47:40.720,0:47:43.440 want to talk 0:47:41.760,0:47:45.440 and we're starting to break down those 0:47:43.440,0:47:46.640 social barriers that caused us not to in 0:47:45.440,0:47:49.920 the first place 0:47:46.640,0:47:51.920 which are probably victorian rules or 0:47:49.920,0:47:53.359 something that's come from like a 0:47:51.920,0:47:55.680 historic 0:47:53.359,0:47:57.040 reason where we where we were scared to 0:47:55.680,0:47:59.760 talk and now 0:47:57.040,0:48:01.040 we're kind of promoted to talk it's it's 0:47:59.760,0:48:02.720 almost like a different revolution like 0:48:01.040,0:48:06.240 it's the talking revolution 0:48:02.720,0:48:08.079 it does feel like it's changed in two 0:48:06.240,0:48:09.680 words that way in fact almost now people 0:48:08.079,0:48:12.640 are too 0:48:09.680,0:48:15.200 open um it's going the wrong way cancel 0:48:12.640,0:48:16.960 the podcast 0:48:15.200,0:48:20.079 but seeing things like um tick tock 0:48:16.960,0:48:22.480 becoming like really prominent in in 0:48:20.079,0:48:23.440 in social media and people talking about 0:48:22.480,0:48:26.720 all of their 0:48:23.440,0:48:28.000 their personal lives on social media and 0:48:26.720,0:48:29.920 like social media has got a lot to 0:48:28.000,0:48:31.440 answer for i think in this setting where 0:48:29.920,0:48:33.040 it's in context 0:48:31.440,0:48:34.720 and people can understand and see the 0:48:33.040,0:48:37.280 whole story um 0:48:34.720,0:48:38.000 i think this is much more healthy than 0:48:37.280,0:48:41.520 like somebody 0:48:38.000,0:48:42.960 putting up a single sentence post on a 0:48:41.520,0:48:44.960 social media thing 0:48:42.960,0:48:46.400 looking for people to ask questions and 0:48:44.960,0:48:48.240 then letting little pieces of 0:48:46.400,0:48:50.079 information out one at a time 0:48:48.240,0:48:52.720 do you understand what i mean like this 0:48:50.079,0:48:53.760 is this feels like it's more natural and 0:48:52.720,0:48:56.880 more organic 0:48:53.760,0:48:58.480 and i hope that that 0:48:56.880,0:48:59.920 we continue in that trend that we're 0:48:58.480,0:49:03.040 open to talk to people 0:48:59.920,0:49:04.559 about things that once 0:49:03.040,0:49:06.079 they didn't want to talk about yeah and 0:49:04.559,0:49:07.920 it sounds like that you're saying that's 0:49:06.079,0:49:11.839 exactly what happened so 0:49:07.920,0:49:12.480 yeah but um your dads might want to talk 0:49:11.839,0:49:14.559 a bit more 0:49:12.480,0:49:15.520 in the future but i think that is a 0:49:14.559,0:49:17.040 generational 0:49:15.520,0:49:19.920 element to it ryan as you said i was 0:49:17.040,0:49:23.599 wondering teres 0:49:19.920,0:49:24.079 is it easier to talk to strangers like 0:49:23.599,0:49:27.280 us 0:49:24.079,0:49:30.319 than it is to people that you know 0:49:27.280,0:49:31.680 yeah it is why 0:49:30.319,0:49:34.000 i think i know the answer but what 0:49:31.680,0:49:37.200 you're going to say 0:49:34.000,0:49:40.559 well um we can take 0:49:37.200,0:49:44.319 my side of the family and since 0:49:40.559,0:49:46.079 my older sister did gave birth to her 0:49:44.319,0:49:49.440 baby 0:49:46.079,0:49:53.280 the week before neil was born 0:49:49.440,0:49:57.520 it's like my family focus 0:49:53.280,0:50:02.079 on that girl and 0:49:57.520,0:50:05.520 yeah they they ask us uh how it's going 0:50:02.079,0:50:08.400 i am am i pregnant again or 0:50:05.520,0:50:08.960 things like that questions that i have 0:50:08.400,0:50:11.200 told them 0:50:08.960,0:50:14.400 please don't ask because we will tell 0:50:11.200,0:50:17.920 you when we have something to tell you 0:50:14.400,0:50:21.520 uh so yeah they they don't ask us 0:50:17.920,0:50:23.440 anymore how we are coping have you been 0:50:21.520,0:50:26.480 to the memorial 0:50:23.440,0:50:30.000 ground or things like that 0:50:26.480,0:50:34.160 and so open up and 0:50:30.000,0:50:37.839 talk with you it's much easier because 0:50:34.160,0:50:41.200 you are not afraid to ask me questions 0:50:37.839,0:50:43.520 and that feels good it feels good to 0:50:41.200,0:50:45.599 get those questions and to answer them 0:50:43.520,0:50:48.800 and telling my story 0:50:45.599,0:50:52.240 and also the most important 0:50:48.800,0:50:55.839 if my story helps someone else 0:50:52.240,0:50:58.079 i have to share my story absolutely 0:50:55.839,0:50:59.520 i have a need to share my story to help 0:50:58.079,0:51:00.800 others 0:50:59.520,0:51:02.400 i think there's almost an element of 0:51:00.800,0:51:03.760 this that goes against ryan i don't know 0:51:02.400,0:51:04.559 if you agree it goes against our 0:51:03.760,0:51:07.839 britishness 0:51:04.559,0:51:09.520 where it almost feels 0:51:07.839,0:51:11.200 unnatural it's maybe too strong a word 0:51:09.520,0:51:14.240 but 0:51:11.200,0:51:15.760 as it's awkward it can be difficult to 0:51:14.240,0:51:18.880 ask those questions because 0:51:15.760,0:51:22.400 unless you know someone 0:51:18.880,0:51:24.400 as comfortable talking about this 0:51:22.400,0:51:26.240 like we know you are you you approached 0:51:24.400,0:51:27.359 us when we put the caller and said i 0:51:26.240,0:51:28.400 really want to do this as there are a 0:51:27.359,0:51:30.000 few others 0:51:28.400,0:51:31.520 yeah that but if it's again if it's 0:51:30.000,0:51:33.440 someone you know 0:51:31.520,0:51:34.800 unless you have a very good relationship 0:51:33.440,0:51:37.359 with them there's always that worry at 0:51:34.800,0:51:39.359 least in my mind that 0:51:37.359,0:51:41.119 this might open up the expression we 0:51:39.359,0:51:42.640 would use as a can of worms it might 0:51:41.119,0:51:44.400 start something that maybe 0:51:42.640,0:51:46.079 i might be ill-equipped to handle the 0:51:44.400,0:51:47.359 person who's been affected might be 0:51:46.079,0:51:50.480 ill-equipped to handle 0:51:47.359,0:51:51.359 and i wonder if that's a lot of the the 0:51:50.480,0:51:53.440 reason behind 0:51:51.359,0:51:54.720 people not having this conversation is 0:51:53.440,0:51:57.280 genuine fear of 0:51:54.720,0:51:59.440 what's going to happen it's consequences 0:51:57.280,0:52:01.520 i would say it's to do with consequences 0:51:59.440,0:52:03.440 you're scared of damaging a relationship 0:52:01.520,0:52:04.800 you're a lot more scared of 0:52:03.440,0:52:06.800 especially if you got to see somebody 0:52:04.800,0:52:09.200 regularly it's probably easier to speak 0:52:06.800,0:52:11.200 to people you're more estranged with 0:52:09.200,0:52:13.359 even in your own family than would be to 0:52:11.200,0:52:15.040 speak to somebody you see every day 0:52:13.359,0:52:16.960 just for the reason that you have to see 0:52:15.040,0:52:18.640 that person again look them in the eyes 0:52:16.960,0:52:21.280 and if you've made