Part 2 - Therese has difficulty conceiving and turned to IVF to help. Her heart-wrenching pregnancy journey includes her taking a triple dose of letrozole without anyone knowing, her suffering from pre-eclampsia and her baby being born with Edwards' Syndrome (Trisomy 18). She talks about birth, death and her journey of recovery.
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the doctor that was with
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us when i delivered mira she told me
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that
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i am now going to be unprofessional and
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what she told me there it helped me to
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survive
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[Applause]
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[Music]
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welcome back then this is part two where
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we are
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speaking to teresa so a guest from
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sweden life is it just me it's a podcast
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where we talk about
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the big talking points in life do not
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whatever you do
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listen to this episode if you have not
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yet checked out part one because there
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is
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a whole backstory which you've got to
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hear first one is paul i'm joined by
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ryan as always hello ryan hi paul how
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are we doing today
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really really good and great to have you
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here and today is hello
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hello welcome back today yes
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you are telling us about your incredibly
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detailed and
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poignant and emotional story
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all about your journey of
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trying to conceive i guess and your
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journey between ibm
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took us on a rollercoaster last time wow
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and we're back for
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um i i had all the
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the emotions all of them every single
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one ticked them off like a bingo card
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emotional bingo we have to we're going
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to have to release that now it's a board
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game
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is it just me emotional that is that's a
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really good who can we team up with
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hasbro or someone like that
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hasbro has to say that mattel maybe one
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of the big ones to be honest i don't
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really care anybody will do
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take my rights take my money okay
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let's go back to business today you were
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telling us all about
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your time in hospital catches up and
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continue from where you got to please as
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best you can
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yeah well when we ended the last time
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i have just told you about
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having giving birth to my daughter and
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well my husband joaquim just told me it
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was a girl because we didn't know until
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the birth so now we were asked
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from my midwife emma uh if we had a name
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for her
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and yeah
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i was thinking about the name i have
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been carrying for
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many years and did i want to give that
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name to
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this beautiful girl or should i keep it
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and save it for
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for hopefully having another guy another
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girl
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and then i was no during the pre
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pregnancy i have been thinking about
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this baby as
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mira so i turned to my husband and i
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asked
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is it mira and he looked at me and said
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yes it is mira so
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that's when i turned back to emma and
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said
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this is mira and from there
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she got her name and
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after this we were offered
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to have a photograph come to take
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photographs
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of us and they did that for free
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because of everything and then they
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asked us if we would like to have a
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priest coming
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to have a baptized
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um and we said thank you to both
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uh of those um so the photograph came
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first
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and took some really beautiful pictures
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my favorite is one when i am talking to
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meera
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and i'm looking down at her and
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the picture captures a moment where mira
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is looking up at me
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and me down the tar this is
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my most precious picture i have of us
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and we also have this beautiful picture
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when
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joaquim is kind of ticking
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her hand to see if he can open her hand
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up
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and she does open her fingers and then
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she closes them
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on her on his fingertip this is also a
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really beautiful picture
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we have yeah it sounds beautiful it does
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yeah
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where did the choice of name mira come
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from
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i had a dream where me and my husband
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and his sister were going in the city
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for shop and shopping and we had a
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stroller
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and in this stroller we had this baby
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girl named mira
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and so i carried this name for
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maybe 10 years hoping to have a baby
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girl
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name his name
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and i finally had her get it
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how did you feel we spoke last time
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about
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the depths you went to in the journey
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and then of course being told
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not long before you were to give birth
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your baby was likely not going to
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have a long life expectancy in that
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moment with all that information in your
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head
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you still had mira to hold and to have
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pictures
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can you put that into words
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at first it was um horrible
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because i was holding my baby that was
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going to die
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but also when i calmed
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down and when i learned that she
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was still alive after birth i was so
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filled with love to this tiny tiny
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person
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lying there because during the pregnancy
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she had shown me her quirks she had a
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personality
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so to having this baby with this
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personality on my chest and bonding the
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guitar
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it was amazing uh
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it's hard to explain but
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with all the emotions the the sadness
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the grieving we had
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the anger the frustration to being there
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but
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not being able to take her home and
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also all this happiness to be there with
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her
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to hold her to see her to smell her
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and feel her and it's
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so wonderful to have those memories with
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me
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during all the pain we also have
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and i have struggled a lot with pain
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and i have been
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through a lot of therapy because of this
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and i have turned a lot of the pain to
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good emotions like love and happiness
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yeah good things so that's good
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that that sounds positive because it
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would be hard to
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er not hard to do that but very easy to
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go the other way
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no um and take a lot of negativity from
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that and
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anger almost i can imagine anger would
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have been the first place to go
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um after upset but it's it's nice to
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hear that you've got
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to a point now where you've kind of
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turned the page almost
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to to that positivity side of things and
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that you had all these positive
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experiences
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things that you wouldn't have been able
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to do had it had not happened
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so that's really good to hear that
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yes
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well um after this um
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mira had been alive for um like
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three or four hours so we were mowed
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to neonatal at that time so they could
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try to put a tube in her to feed her
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so we were mowed over there and
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when we came into our room we
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had there we changed
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so joaquin could hold her
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and he told me afterward that
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when it was confirmed that he was going
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to hold her
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he almost ripped his shirt in half to
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get it
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off him to then put the hospital chart
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on
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so he could have mira
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beneath the hospital chart in a good way
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yeah and
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then they tried to put the tube but
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it was really difficult and they wasn't
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they weren't able to do that
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and um during the time we had her there
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they tried three times one
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wiki joaquim one with me and the last
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time
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it was after midnight
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they put her on a table with a heating
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mattress to keep her warm when she
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wasn't playing with us
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and i took that time to go to the
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bathroom because
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i've been told from the doctors you need
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to go to the bathroom
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regular because after the epidural you
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won't feel the need
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and when i came out of the bathroom i
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felt a change in the atmosphere in the
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room
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and i was focused on getting a glass of
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water to take my
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medication at that time but i
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put the glass away and went
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up to joakim and the two nurses
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to see what was going on
0:10:04.959,0:10:09.760
then joaquin told me it's time
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so after 11 hours alive
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she was now giving up
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so i went up there he woke him hugged me
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really hard
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and really close so i was standing there
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in a
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quite awkward situation position
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because i wanted to hug you joaquim but
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also i wanted to
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let mira know that i was there with her
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so i could put a hand on her
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and then the doctor came in and
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took this stethoscope and listened and
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said yeah i can only hear the heart now
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so it won't be long
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and at that point i felt the need to
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hold mira again
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because she was laying there on this
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table and it felt horrible to see her
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lying there without
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anyone holding her so i released myself
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from joaquin designer i want to hold her
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and i gently picked her up and got help
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to open up the shirt so i could put her
0:11:12.959,0:11:15.839
skin to skin
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and i held her there close to my own
0:11:19.839,0:11:25.040
heart
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even her own when her heart stopped
0:11:26.839,0:11:31.680
beating
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and we were alone at the time uh
0:11:31.680,0:11:39.519
the doctor said we will leave you
0:11:34.800,0:11:39.519
to be alone this last moment with her
0:11:40.399,0:11:43.760
so we were there alone and then they
0:11:43.120,0:11:46.079
came in
0:11:43.760,0:11:48.320
and the doctor confirmed that she was
0:11:46.079,0:11:48.320
gone
0:11:49.760,0:11:57.600
and yeah then we cleaned her
0:11:53.519,0:12:00.800
and dressed her and they had this
0:11:57.600,0:12:04.079
baby caskets i
0:12:00.800,0:12:07.760
think it's super name
0:12:04.079,0:12:10.320
where they put her in a cooling mattress
0:12:07.760,0:12:11.839
so we could have her as long as we
0:12:10.320,0:12:15.680
wanted
0:12:11.839,0:12:19.040
because that's what i have learned
0:12:15.680,0:12:22.720
you do in all sweden but also
0:12:19.040,0:12:25.760
in america in uk and in countries
0:12:22.720,0:12:28.160
where they know that it's important that
0:12:25.760,0:12:29.360
when your baby dies that you have the
0:12:28.160,0:12:32.480
baby
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until you're ready to leave
0:12:32.480,0:12:38.160
the baby behind so to say
0:12:35.839,0:12:40.639
it sounds really wrong to say it but
0:12:38.160,0:12:43.920
that's the way
0:12:40.639,0:12:46.160
the reality yeah
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so we don't think anybody anybody would
0:12:46.160,0:12:50.480
be able to understand how you feel
0:12:47.600,0:12:53.120
unless you've gone through that
0:12:50.480,0:12:53.519
although your storytelling is so vivid
0:12:53.120,0:12:55.360
that
0:12:53.519,0:12:57.120
i feel like we are going through it with
0:12:55.360,0:13:00.399
you um
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i know what you think it's yeah
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um i could feel myself choking up as you
0:13:03.279,0:13:08.720
were speaking and i was
0:13:05.120,0:13:08.720
i was like okay keep it together
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sorry sorry yeah no i was just going to
0:13:11.680,0:13:16.240
say thank you for sharing again
0:13:13.120,0:13:17.680
because i know we talked about last time
0:13:16.240,0:13:20.000
it was almost a little bit like a
0:13:17.680,0:13:21.440
therapy session um
0:13:20.000,0:13:23.760
where we're sharing all these things
0:13:21.440,0:13:25.600
together um but i kind of hope that
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that's how these come across
0:13:25.600,0:13:29.440
when when we release them as a series
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i'm hoping that that's
0:13:29.440,0:13:32.639
that's what it kind of does for people
0:13:32.320,0:13:34.880
that
0:13:32.639,0:13:36.880
they see that it's not just them and
0:13:34.880,0:13:38.880
that
0:13:36.880,0:13:40.320
other people are going through painful
0:13:38.880,0:13:42.320
scenarios and
0:13:40.320,0:13:44.399
things that are normal if that people
0:13:42.320,0:13:45.360
think or perceive our normal everyday
0:13:44.399,0:13:48.000
things
0:13:45.360,0:13:49.440
and from a unique perspective and
0:13:48.000,0:13:51.839
knowing that they're not alone
0:13:49.440,0:13:53.600
and i'm hoping and i know paul feels the
0:13:51.839,0:13:57.440
same i'm not putting words in his mind
0:13:53.600,0:14:00.399
at all so that that is the
0:13:57.440,0:14:02.000
the kind of goal of this to to help
0:14:00.399,0:14:02.560
share these experiences with other
0:14:02.000,0:14:05.440
people
0:14:02.560,0:14:06.480
and to learn just share the learning i
0:14:05.440,0:14:09.279
guess and
0:14:06.480,0:14:09.920
learning that you're not alone out there
0:14:09.279,0:14:14.079
yeah
0:14:09.920,0:14:17.120
today yes you spoke about
0:14:14.079,0:14:19.279
being being with meter for his
0:14:17.120,0:14:21.040
until you were ready for as long as you
0:14:19.279,0:14:24.800
as you needed
0:14:21.040,0:14:26.000
yeah how do you come to that decision
0:14:24.800,0:14:28.560
how do you know
0:14:26.000,0:14:30.079
okay i'm ready how long how long did it
0:14:28.560,0:14:31.600
take did you
0:14:30.079,0:14:34.959
you and your husband reached that point
0:14:31.600,0:14:34.959
at the same time different times
0:14:35.279,0:14:41.600
um the truth is
0:14:38.399,0:14:46.079
neither of us was ready to leave
0:14:41.600,0:14:49.920
we did it anyway it's like when you
0:14:46.079,0:14:53.839
rip the bandage off it's like that
0:14:49.920,0:14:57.120
for us i could have stayed there for
0:14:53.839,0:14:58.399
a whole week longer and you're allowed
0:14:57.120,0:15:01.440
to do that and
0:14:58.399,0:15:03.360
here in sweden you are also allowed to
0:15:01.440,0:15:07.360
take the child home with you
0:15:03.360,0:15:10.959
if you want to okay um
0:15:07.360,0:15:11.600
that felt too weird for us to take her
0:15:10.959,0:15:14.639
home
0:15:11.600,0:15:18.320
when she wasn't alive so we
0:15:14.639,0:15:22.160
pretty early decided to not do that
0:15:18.320,0:15:26.959
um but we we slept the night
0:15:22.160,0:15:30.399
with her between us
0:15:26.959,0:15:33.279
and um the day after
0:15:30.399,0:15:33.839
we called our parents to let them know
0:15:33.279,0:15:37.600
that
0:15:33.839,0:15:39.360
she was gone and let them know that
0:15:37.600,0:15:41.519
if they wanted to come back to the
0:15:39.360,0:15:45.360
hospital to see her
0:15:41.519,0:15:47.199
and one last time they could do that
0:15:45.360,0:15:49.120
and my father was the only one who
0:15:47.199,0:15:52.720
didn't come back
0:15:49.120,0:15:56.000
and my mother and his parents came
0:15:52.720,0:15:59.759
yorking's parents um and
0:15:56.000,0:16:03.680
when they left um we had some lunch
0:15:59.759,0:16:06.839
and then i said to joaquin
0:16:03.680,0:16:10.560
maybe it's time to go and
0:16:06.839,0:16:14.079
and we didn't leave the hospital
0:16:10.560,0:16:17.839
because i had pre-campsia
0:16:14.079,0:16:20.639
so i needed to stay in the hospital
0:16:17.839,0:16:21.360
so they can monitor me and make sure
0:16:20.639,0:16:24.880
that
0:16:21.360,0:16:28.320
i got well before i was released and
0:16:24.880,0:16:33.600
could go home so when we
0:16:28.320,0:16:36.880
left meera in neonatal we went back to
0:16:33.600,0:16:40.800
the room where we got the news of
0:16:36.880,0:16:44.000
her not being able to survive and
0:16:40.800,0:16:44.000
at first i was
0:16:45.360,0:16:50.560
horrified that we were going back to
0:16:48.720,0:16:51.680
that room because i didn't want to go
0:16:50.560,0:16:54.800
back there
0:16:51.680,0:16:57.759
but as we talked about
0:16:54.800,0:16:58.959
therapy it was good to go back to that
0:16:57.759,0:17:02.399
room
0:16:58.959,0:17:04.720
because then the room wasn't
0:17:02.399,0:17:06.720
going to be this horrible room where we
0:17:04.720,0:17:09.760
got the horrible news
0:17:06.720,0:17:13.520
it was going to be a more neutral room
0:17:09.760,0:17:18.160
okay it's just a room it's not there
0:17:13.520,0:17:22.799
yeah so we spent another night there
0:17:18.160,0:17:26.480
and now it's sunday
0:17:22.799,0:17:29.600
and the doctor that was
0:17:26.480,0:17:33.600
with us when i delivered mira she came
0:17:29.600,0:17:37.039
into me and she just opened her arms
0:17:33.600,0:17:37.679
gave me this big hug and she told me
0:17:37.039,0:17:41.679
that
0:17:37.679,0:17:46.000
i am now going to be unprofessional
0:17:41.679,0:17:49.120
and what she told me there
0:17:46.000,0:17:52.160
it was she threw me a life
0:17:49.120,0:17:55.120
boy because i was drowning
0:17:52.160,0:17:57.679
but what she that she said to me it
0:17:55.120,0:18:01.200
helped me to survive
0:17:57.679,0:18:04.080
and she told me that 30 years ago
0:18:01.200,0:18:06.480
something like that she lost her first
0:18:04.080,0:18:06.480
baby
0:18:08.240,0:18:13.200
a baby boy and she wanted me to know
0:18:11.600,0:18:15.039
that
0:18:13.200,0:18:16.880
and she also wanted me to know that she
0:18:15.039,0:18:21.440
had children after
0:18:16.880,0:18:24.960
that baby boy and she wanted me to
0:18:21.440,0:18:29.039
keep that with me so i will
0:18:24.960,0:18:31.360
be able to move forward and to
0:18:29.039,0:18:32.320
think and have this thinking with me
0:18:31.360,0:18:36.480
that i
0:18:32.320,0:18:39.760
can have other children i can
0:18:36.480,0:18:42.960
go forward and try
0:18:39.760,0:18:46.240
more to have another child yeah and
0:18:42.960,0:18:49.200
that helped a lot
0:18:46.240,0:18:49.200
yeah sometimes these
0:18:49.280,0:18:52.480
almost unscripted moments yeah random
0:18:51.760,0:18:54.960
acts of
0:18:52.480,0:18:56.640
yeah unscripted moments like that where
0:18:54.960,0:18:59.440
i'm sure it would have been
0:18:56.640,0:19:01.360
a lot easier maybe not the right word
0:18:59.440,0:19:02.720
but as you say maybe more professional
0:19:01.360,0:19:05.760
to say nothing but
0:19:02.720,0:19:09.120
in times like that you often find that
0:19:05.760,0:19:11.360
the need to be professional almost
0:19:09.120,0:19:12.400
is superseded by the need to be a human
0:19:11.360,0:19:15.120
and to
0:19:12.400,0:19:16.799
to help someone else and as you say it's
0:19:15.120,0:19:18.320
helped you enormously to have had that
0:19:16.799,0:19:20.640
so thank goodness that
0:19:18.320,0:19:22.000
that she did so she made that choice to
0:19:20.640,0:19:25.520
humanize that moment
0:19:22.000,0:19:29.120
absolutely yeah yeah
0:19:25.520,0:19:32.799
because um another thing is that uh
0:19:29.120,0:19:36.240
here in sweden we have this organization
0:19:32.799,0:19:39.520
and infant organization
0:19:36.240,0:19:42.640
it's a pretty good translation and
0:19:39.520,0:19:46.640
so when meera died we had this bag
0:19:42.640,0:19:49.760
with information about them
0:19:46.640,0:19:50.480
and numbers and email addresses we could
0:19:49.760,0:19:53.520
reach out
0:19:50.480,0:19:56.880
to talk with other parents that
0:19:53.520,0:20:00.480
have lost children
0:19:56.880,0:20:01.520
so with that information about the
0:20:00.480,0:20:05.039
organization
0:20:01.520,0:20:08.480
and also the doctor's story
0:20:05.039,0:20:10.159
it helped us a lot to move forward from
0:20:08.480,0:20:13.280
that point
0:20:10.159,0:20:16.799
so when we went home
0:20:13.280,0:20:20.159
yeah we felt that the whole
0:20:16.799,0:20:20.720
whole world was standing still so going
0:20:20.159,0:20:23.520
out
0:20:20.720,0:20:24.880
from the hospital it felt so weird
0:20:23.520,0:20:27.280
because
0:20:24.880,0:20:28.080
people were moving around they were
0:20:27.280,0:20:31.760
talking
0:20:28.080,0:20:31.760
like nothing had happened yeah
0:20:32.080,0:20:35.120
like did these people not know what
0:20:33.760,0:20:36.880
you'd been through did they not
0:20:35.120,0:20:38.400
understand
0:20:36.880,0:20:39.919
how dare they get on with their lives
0:20:38.400,0:20:42.159
like okay like
0:20:39.919,0:20:43.840
yeah you just get that because you've
0:20:42.159,0:20:44.600
been through ever that moment and it's
0:20:43.840,0:20:47.200
been so
0:20:44.600,0:20:49.200
life-hiring for you that everybody
0:20:47.200,0:20:49.760
should understand how you feel in that
0:20:49.200,0:20:53.679
moment
0:20:49.760,0:20:56.799
yeah yeah so i was so angry
0:20:53.679,0:20:59.360
at the people i could see because
0:20:56.799,0:21:00.080
i wanted to scream why why are you
0:20:59.360,0:21:02.960
continue
0:21:00.080,0:21:05.360
with your life why don't you stop and
0:21:02.960,0:21:08.159
think for a moment how
0:21:05.360,0:21:08.960
everything can just shatter in a moment
0:21:08.159,0:21:13.120
yeah
0:21:08.960,0:21:13.120
yeah so but we kept
0:21:13.840,0:21:18.080
everything inside and i went to the
0:21:17.360,0:21:21.360
pharmacy
0:21:18.080,0:21:25.679
to get some painkillers
0:21:21.360,0:21:29.120
and other things i needed and
0:21:25.679,0:21:30.000
i was asked for what do you need the
0:21:29.120,0:21:33.919
painkillers and
0:21:30.000,0:21:36.880
i was yeah i have just given birth
0:21:33.919,0:21:39.039
and she asked well are you going to
0:21:36.880,0:21:42.159
breastfeed
0:21:39.039,0:21:43.679
no i am not going to breastfeed
0:21:42.159,0:21:45.120
you'd think there would be some kind of
0:21:43.679,0:21:46.480
letter that you could give to a
0:21:45.120,0:21:48.480
pharmacist in that moment
0:21:46.480,0:21:49.840
to say i don't really want to talk about
0:21:48.480,0:21:52.159
this yes
0:21:49.840,0:21:52.880
here's what's happened just give me the
0:21:52.159,0:21:56.159
things i need
0:21:52.880,0:21:57.679
please yeah like yeah it seems
0:21:56.159,0:21:59.520
i know it's not insensitive they need to
0:21:57.679,0:22:01.200
ask these questions but
0:21:59.520,0:22:02.799
you would like to feel some kind of
0:22:01.200,0:22:04.400
protocol
0:22:02.799,0:22:06.400
where you hand over a certain color
0:22:04.400,0:22:08.159
piece of paper or you have to you like
0:22:06.400,0:22:10.080
even a sticker on your nose you know
0:22:08.159,0:22:12.240
something that says
0:22:10.080,0:22:13.600
discreet enough to avoid something
0:22:12.240,0:22:15.200
different enough that nobody would know
0:22:13.600,0:22:18.320
what it was but they would know
0:22:15.200,0:22:19.600
right okay right let's let's let's be a
0:22:18.320,0:22:22.640
bit more
0:22:19.600,0:22:26.640
kit gloves here yeah sensitive
0:22:22.640,0:22:29.360
yeah yeah so yeah it was kind of
0:22:26.640,0:22:29.679
a miracle that i didn't break down there
0:22:29.360,0:22:32.400
and
0:22:29.679,0:22:33.600
start crying but i was like yeah um i'm
0:22:32.400,0:22:37.120
not going to breastfeed
0:22:33.600,0:22:40.320
just give me the stuff so i can go home
0:22:37.120,0:22:43.440
um we did one thing that was
0:22:40.320,0:22:46.240
very difficult to do before we went home
0:22:43.440,0:22:46.720
we went to a shopping center and we
0:22:46.240,0:22:50.320
bought
0:22:46.720,0:22:53.360
some frames uh for the pictures
0:22:50.320,0:22:57.039
the pictures yeah so we could put them
0:22:53.360,0:23:00.320
in there as soon as we printed the
0:22:57.039,0:23:02.880
the pictures we had ourselves and
0:23:00.320,0:23:03.679
when the photographs were coming we
0:23:02.880,0:23:06.720
could
0:23:03.679,0:23:10.000
put them also in frames so we did that
0:23:06.720,0:23:11.919
and then we went home and we all still
0:23:10.000,0:23:14.240
were kim's parents to meet the stars so
0:23:11.919,0:23:16.159
we didn't have to go home to this empty
0:23:14.240,0:23:18.880
silent home
0:23:16.159,0:23:19.520
and we are so thankful for them meeting
0:23:18.880,0:23:23.440
us star
0:23:19.520,0:23:26.640
being there when we went home
0:23:23.440,0:23:30.960
and yeah we
0:23:26.640,0:23:34.799
held a funeral uh a month later
0:23:30.960,0:23:35.440
and when we when i gave birth to mira it
0:23:34.799,0:23:37.760
wasn't
0:23:35.440,0:23:39.440
that much snow it was a little snow but
0:23:37.760,0:23:43.440
not much
0:23:39.440,0:23:46.960
and then there came a snowstorm
0:23:43.440,0:23:48.840
so it was a lot of snow the day we had
0:23:46.960,0:23:51.840
the funeral
0:23:48.840,0:23:55.039
and this day joaquin
0:23:51.840,0:23:58.960
and i shared our first yoke
0:23:55.039,0:24:02.080
uh after her or that
0:23:58.960,0:24:05.440
sort of healing for us to be able to
0:24:02.080,0:24:08.880
laugh again and it was a
0:24:05.440,0:24:12.960
very beautiful day and the
0:24:08.880,0:24:16.400
sun shined for a moment and
0:24:12.960,0:24:20.480
the snow was glittering it was a totally
0:24:16.400,0:24:23.279
white winter wonderland so beautiful
0:24:20.480,0:24:24.159
and then you walk inside i think mira
0:24:23.279,0:24:26.720
loves snow
0:24:24.159,0:24:28.960
because she has sent the snow here from
0:24:26.720,0:24:32.000
herron
0:24:28.960,0:24:35.679
and i answered well either that she
0:24:32.000,0:24:40.320
knows no or she hates snows
0:24:35.679,0:24:40.320
how the snow in heaven she sent it to us
0:24:42.159,0:24:48.720
so yeah it was a good moment
0:24:45.360,0:24:53.039
to make the first yoke
0:24:48.720,0:24:56.960
so we could start heal properly
0:24:53.039,0:24:56.960
yeah it sounds like
0:24:57.039,0:25:00.320
like we said before that's such a an
0:24:59.520,0:25:03.279
emotional
0:25:00.320,0:25:04.640
roller coaster for for of course you and
0:25:03.279,0:25:06.720
your family and for for
0:25:04.640,0:25:07.840
us carrying out this interview and for
0:25:06.720,0:25:10.720
you listening and
0:25:07.840,0:25:12.840
you speak about starting to heal um how
0:25:10.720,0:25:15.200
much time has passed
0:25:12.840,0:25:17.440
since the experience you just told us
0:25:15.200,0:25:17.440
about
0:25:18.320,0:25:26.400
in march it will be
0:25:22.000,0:25:29.679
three years since the funeral okay
0:25:26.400,0:25:31.520
do you feel i
0:25:29.679,0:25:34.000
imagine it's very difficult to quantify
0:25:31.520,0:25:36.799
something like this but
0:25:34.000,0:25:38.240
when you think back to how you felt then
0:25:36.799,0:25:40.559
perhaps on the day of the funeral the
0:25:38.240,0:25:42.559
day you just described compared to
0:25:40.559,0:25:44.159
how you feel now what's the what's the
0:25:42.559,0:25:45.279
journey been like what's the healing
0:25:44.159,0:25:48.720
process if that's that's
0:25:45.279,0:25:54.480
the correct term been like for you both
0:25:48.720,0:25:54.480
it's been uh horrible from time to time
0:25:54.799,0:26:01.039
as i told you um the last time i am a
0:25:57.919,0:26:04.400
preschool teacher so
0:26:01.039,0:26:05.360
i work with kids that are as young as
0:26:04.400,0:26:08.720
one year old
0:26:05.360,0:26:12.159
and the oldest are five-year-olds
0:26:08.720,0:26:12.159
and i develop
0:26:12.640,0:26:18.799
how do you say developed yeah thank you
0:26:16.320,0:26:24.080
no problem don't ask me to say again
0:26:18.799,0:26:27.279
better my swedish
0:26:24.080,0:26:28.400
well uh i want to go into that now let's
0:26:27.279,0:26:32.320
let's not go there
0:26:28.400,0:26:32.320
let's stick to english you developed
0:26:33.039,0:26:41.440
and i got ptsd
0:26:37.039,0:26:44.559
post-traumatic stress disorder
0:26:41.440,0:26:46.960
and because of that i was working with
0:26:44.559,0:26:46.960
kids
0:26:47.520,0:26:51.120
again i can only imagine how difficult
0:26:49.520,0:26:53.520
that must be
0:26:51.120,0:26:55.440
to see children on a day-to-day break
0:26:53.520,0:26:59.760
basis especially in the age group
0:26:55.440,0:27:02.400
that your daughter would be in um
0:26:59.760,0:27:04.240
i mean i did your employers kind of
0:27:02.400,0:27:05.679
understand
0:27:04.240,0:27:08.240
what you were going through did you had
0:27:05.679,0:27:10.080
you shared that with them or
0:27:08.240,0:27:11.440
because to me obviously having had this
0:27:10.080,0:27:13.520
conversation with you it seems
0:27:11.440,0:27:15.520
obvious that that would be a difficult
0:27:13.520,0:27:17.840
thing but would they
0:27:15.520,0:27:18.640
did they show you some kind of empathy
0:27:17.840,0:27:22.640
or
0:27:18.640,0:27:25.919
or the understanding about the situation
0:27:22.640,0:27:29.120
well this is a story
0:27:25.919,0:27:32.320
a part of my story that
0:27:29.120,0:27:35.600
gets me really upset and angry because
0:27:32.320,0:27:38.159
at first i was given a lot of um
0:27:35.600,0:27:38.159
empathy
0:27:39.360,0:27:46.799
well they were understanding thank you
0:27:42.960,0:27:49.919
and they did understand that i was
0:27:46.799,0:27:53.039
grieving and i was sad and
0:27:49.919,0:27:55.360
i asked the first thing i asked was
0:27:53.039,0:27:56.480
please don't make me go back to the
0:27:55.360,0:27:59.679
preschool
0:27:56.480,0:28:02.159
i could do anything else but please
0:27:59.679,0:28:02.880
i don't want to go back there i can't do
0:28:02.159,0:28:06.480
that
0:28:02.880,0:28:10.000
any any other job i'll make tea just
0:28:06.480,0:28:11.919
please don't send me back there yeah i i
0:28:10.000,0:28:13.039
i mean i i didn't go through it but i
0:28:11.919,0:28:15.520
feel like i've been through it with you
0:28:13.039,0:28:19.279
and i understand
0:28:15.520,0:28:23.120
you think they would understand yeah um
0:28:19.279,0:28:26.640
but the doctors and my boss
0:28:23.120,0:28:29.919
my parents like everyone
0:28:26.640,0:28:30.960
uh told me you need to go back there
0:28:29.919,0:28:34.159
because
0:28:30.960,0:28:37.440
you know the kids you know the parents
0:28:34.159,0:28:39.120
and you have the safety with your
0:28:37.440,0:28:42.559
co-workers
0:28:39.120,0:28:45.039
and i was yeah i don't care about that
0:28:42.559,0:28:45.760
i don't care about knowing everything
0:28:45.039,0:28:49.120
there
0:28:45.760,0:28:53.919
i don't want to go back there but
0:28:49.120,0:28:58.000
i was kind of forced to go back there
0:28:53.919,0:29:01.919
and at first i was
0:28:58.000,0:29:06.000
just working 20 hours a week
0:29:01.919,0:29:09.919
and and i was supposed to do that
0:29:06.000,0:29:13.279
to summer so i started to work in may
0:29:09.919,0:29:16.640
2nd of may and
0:29:13.279,0:29:19.679
i didn't go every day some days
0:29:16.640,0:29:21.760
i couldn't get up from bed i
0:29:19.679,0:29:22.960
got up from bed i went to the bathroom
0:29:21.760,0:29:25.520
and then i just
0:29:22.960,0:29:26.720
go back to bed and later i couldn't do
0:29:25.520,0:29:30.000
anything
0:29:26.720,0:29:33.120
some days i started to drive to work
0:29:30.000,0:29:35.600
because that's also the one thing i
0:29:33.120,0:29:37.520
have to drive to my work there is no
0:29:35.600,0:29:40.799
other way for me to get there
0:29:37.520,0:29:44.159
so driving was also difficult
0:29:40.799,0:29:44.640
so some days i started driving and then
0:29:44.159,0:29:47.039
i was
0:29:44.640,0:29:48.559
no i'm turned back i'm not going to work
0:29:47.039,0:29:51.279
today
0:29:48.559,0:29:52.240
and i had days that i could go to work
0:29:51.279,0:29:55.840
and be there
0:29:52.240,0:29:58.960
and being with the children and
0:29:55.840,0:30:03.760
going home after four hours
0:29:58.960,0:30:03.760
five hours and feel okay
0:30:03.840,0:30:12.000
and then i start to feel this
0:30:07.760,0:30:16.640
weird emotion that something is wrong
0:30:12.000,0:30:20.000
i don't i can't be close to the kids
0:30:16.640,0:30:22.880
the thing with young children is that
0:30:20.000,0:30:24.000
when they feel safe with you they want
0:30:22.880,0:30:26.559
to be
0:30:24.000,0:30:28.000
close to you when they like you so the
0:30:26.559,0:30:30.880
kids they wanted to sit
0:30:28.000,0:30:31.919
next to me they wanted to sit in my lap
0:30:30.880,0:30:35.039
they wanted to hug
0:30:31.919,0:30:36.000
me and stuff like that normally
0:30:35.039,0:30:38.080
something that would be
0:30:36.000,0:30:39.120
endearing and something that would make
0:30:38.080,0:30:41.600
you
0:30:39.120,0:30:42.559
would also almost make your heart warm
0:30:41.600,0:30:46.480
um
0:30:42.559,0:30:48.960
it's not causing you pain yeah yeah
0:30:46.480,0:30:50.240
so i started to realize that i was when
0:30:48.960,0:30:54.000
the kids were
0:30:50.240,0:30:57.039
sitting next to me i was scooping away i
0:30:54.000,0:31:00.080
didn't want them to touch me
0:30:57.039,0:31:03.440
and yeah it
0:31:00.080,0:31:07.200
became emotions that
0:31:03.440,0:31:10.399
became voices in my head is in such
0:31:07.200,0:31:13.919
a way and it
0:31:10.399,0:31:16.960
turned to this day that we were
0:31:13.919,0:31:20.960
it was summer now and
0:31:16.960,0:31:24.799
we were outside a really warm day
0:31:20.960,0:31:28.480
and i heard a a
0:31:24.799,0:31:31.760
a young boy he was one one years old
0:31:28.480,0:31:32.880
so he has started preschool and his
0:31:31.760,0:31:35.679
teacher had
0:31:32.880,0:31:36.480
laid him in a stroller to sleep and he
0:31:35.679,0:31:39.840
woke up and
0:31:36.480,0:31:42.880
he was crying at first i tried to
0:31:39.840,0:31:45.039
get contact with the other teachers
0:31:42.880,0:31:46.240
around me and to let them know that he
0:31:45.039,0:31:49.679
was crying
0:31:46.240,0:31:51.519
and no one was hearing so i went back to
0:31:49.679,0:31:53.840
the stroller and tried to
0:31:51.519,0:31:54.880
suit him again sleeping without picking
0:31:53.840,0:31:59.760
me up
0:31:54.880,0:32:02.960
and it didn't work so i picked him up
0:31:59.760,0:32:06.159
and i went to uh this big stone
0:32:02.960,0:32:09.519
that i could sit down on and
0:32:06.159,0:32:13.200
had him in his my lap and this child
0:32:09.519,0:32:16.799
he didn't know me because i was in an
0:32:13.200,0:32:16.799
other department
0:32:18.159,0:32:22.240
but it was like he felt safe with me
0:32:21.440,0:32:26.880
because he was
0:32:22.240,0:32:31.200
relaxing in my lap and that was when i
0:32:26.880,0:32:34.240
knew that i can't do this anymore
0:32:31.200,0:32:36.480
because in this moment i got scared of
0:32:34.240,0:32:40.559
myself
0:32:36.480,0:32:43.039
my emotions got into voices
0:32:40.559,0:32:43.600
and those voices told me to pick this
0:32:43.039,0:32:47.760
child
0:32:43.600,0:32:51.120
up and throw him into a tree
0:32:47.760,0:32:55.279
standing two meters from me okay okay
0:32:51.120,0:32:57.760
and this was so scary i have never been
0:32:55.279,0:33:00.960
that scared in my life about myself
0:32:57.760,0:33:00.960
about my actions
0:33:02.000,0:33:05.840
i was able to put him back into the
0:33:04.960,0:33:08.000
stroller
0:33:05.840,0:33:09.360
i went to the other teacher and said you
0:33:08.000,0:33:13.519
need to take care of him
0:33:09.360,0:33:17.360
i need to go in i can't be here anymore
0:33:13.519,0:33:19.919
so i went inside and i was
0:33:17.360,0:33:20.880
lucky in that way i didn't break down
0:33:19.919,0:33:23.679
until i got
0:33:20.880,0:33:24.080
into this room where we have our break
0:33:23.679,0:33:27.840
and break
0:33:24.080,0:33:30.880
times and there i just broke down
0:33:27.840,0:33:34.080
and i was he knew that i can't i can't
0:33:30.880,0:33:35.760
do this anymore i can't come back here
0:33:34.080,0:33:37.279
so i called my boss and told her
0:33:35.760,0:33:40.799
everything and said that
0:33:37.279,0:33:43.760
this can't go on anymore and she said no
0:33:40.799,0:33:46.159
no of course not and we had a meeting
0:33:43.760,0:33:50.320
and she said you need professional help
0:33:46.159,0:33:53.279
yeah i do that yeah i
0:33:50.320,0:33:53.679
called my insurance company and asked
0:33:53.279,0:33:59.120
them
0:33:53.679,0:34:01.679
to get in touch with a psychologist
0:33:59.120,0:34:03.679
up until that point we had gone to a
0:34:01.679,0:34:06.799
therapist at a hospital
0:34:03.679,0:34:10.000
but i needed more help because
0:34:06.799,0:34:13.280
of the ptsd and my
0:34:10.000,0:34:16.480
reactions with the kids
0:34:13.280,0:34:20.800
so i was home again
0:34:16.480,0:34:24.159
full time i went to the psychologist
0:34:20.800,0:34:27.280
who told me that yeah you have ptsd
0:34:24.159,0:34:30.639
and she gave me help
0:34:27.280,0:34:34.240
to handle that
0:34:30.639,0:34:37.119
and also to handle
0:34:34.240,0:34:38.079
all those emotions that had turned into
0:34:37.119,0:34:41.280
negative
0:34:38.079,0:34:43.919
emotions from the birth
0:34:41.280,0:34:44.720
so she helped me turn them into positive
0:34:43.919,0:34:49.280
emotions
0:34:44.720,0:34:52.720
and that was really great because
0:34:49.280,0:34:55.599
now i can remember
0:34:52.720,0:34:56.240
the time with mira with love and happy
0:34:55.599,0:34:59.520
thoughts
0:34:56.240,0:35:02.560
instead of all this anger and
0:34:59.520,0:35:05.359
sadness so she was really helpful
0:35:02.560,0:35:08.240
uh and she i she's told me that i was
0:35:05.359,0:35:11.040
the first person she helped with
0:35:08.240,0:35:12.800
the loss of a child but she helped a lot
0:35:11.040,0:35:15.359
of people with ptsd
0:35:12.800,0:35:17.359
so she was really good that's really
0:35:15.359,0:35:19.520
good and i imagine
0:35:17.359,0:35:21.359
should you may not be the last person
0:35:19.520,0:35:23.280
that she has to help with such a
0:35:21.359,0:35:24.720
situation so it will have been useful
0:35:23.280,0:35:26.160
for her as well to
0:35:24.720,0:35:27.680
i've had the experience of helping you
0:35:26.160,0:35:28.960
which will hopefully turn going to help
0:35:27.680,0:35:30.480
others so
0:35:28.960,0:35:32.000
yeah i'm really glad you'll be able to
0:35:30.480,0:35:33.520
get that help it does sound the
0:35:32.000,0:35:34.640
experience you spoke about picking up
0:35:33.520,0:35:37.760
the child
0:35:34.640,0:35:40.800
and having that thought must have been
0:35:37.760,0:35:41.599
terrifying you said yourself i'm just
0:35:40.800,0:35:43.359
glad that
0:35:41.599,0:35:45.359
obviously you didn't carry through i
0:35:43.359,0:35:48.160
mean that as easily as possible
0:35:45.359,0:35:50.079
in that moment that moment of insanity
0:35:48.160,0:35:51.200
you could have
0:35:50.079,0:35:54.160
you could have followed through with
0:35:51.200,0:35:56.880
that thought process and um
0:35:54.160,0:35:57.760
i mean thank goodness he didn't but i
0:35:56.880,0:36:00.640
can imagine
0:35:57.760,0:36:02.240
for your own uh your own experience and
0:36:00.640,0:36:03.920
that's exactly why you had to walk away
0:36:02.240,0:36:04.880
because you had frightened yourself in
0:36:03.920,0:36:07.839
that moment
0:36:04.880,0:36:08.480
yeah and again your storytelling is so
0:36:07.839,0:36:11.440
good
0:36:08.480,0:36:11.760
that thank you it feels like we're with
0:36:11.440,0:36:15.680
you
0:36:11.760,0:36:17.599
in every step of this and um
0:36:15.680,0:36:19.760
that's a testament to you as well but
0:36:17.599,0:36:19.760
the
0:36:20.640,0:36:24.000
the psychologist has clearly helped you
0:36:22.400,0:36:27.040
with that and
0:36:24.000,0:36:28.320
and it's just such it's such a positive
0:36:27.040,0:36:28.720
thing we talked about this just before
0:36:28.320,0:36:31.599
we
0:36:28.720,0:36:32.640
um in this in this episode that um
0:36:31.599,0:36:34.240
you've been able to switch that
0:36:32.640,0:36:37.280
negativity into positivity
0:36:34.240,0:36:38.480
is just a it's like it's a gift and i
0:36:37.280,0:36:40.240
think
0:36:38.480,0:36:41.760
it's it's incredible really what
0:36:40.240,0:36:44.000
psychology can do
0:36:41.760,0:36:46.000
yeah is that something you've you have
0:36:44.000,0:36:49.280
to consciously do
0:36:46.000,0:36:50.800
do you have to consciously think of a
0:36:49.280,0:36:51.760
positive or is that something that's
0:36:50.800,0:36:54.160
come about
0:36:51.760,0:36:56.720
as a result of the work you've done and
0:36:54.160,0:36:59.599
now it happens naturally
0:36:56.720,0:37:00.160
today it happens naturally thanks for
0:36:59.599,0:37:03.520
the help
0:37:00.160,0:37:06.079
i got from the psychologist and
0:37:03.520,0:37:08.480
during all the therapy sessions i had
0:37:06.079,0:37:12.880
been through uh
0:37:08.480,0:37:15.359
talks talk about this it really helps
0:37:12.880,0:37:16.880
it helps me to come to the place where i
0:37:15.359,0:37:21.200
am today
0:37:16.880,0:37:23.599
okay what is your work situation
0:37:21.200,0:37:24.480
like now you spoke about feeling the
0:37:23.599,0:37:29.040
need to
0:37:24.480,0:37:32.320
to leave your job yeah um
0:37:29.040,0:37:35.599
when i left my work i didn't
0:37:32.320,0:37:38.880
leave in that way that i wouldn't
0:37:35.599,0:37:43.440
never come back i got this
0:37:38.880,0:37:47.119
unpaid vacation to try another work
0:37:43.440,0:37:50.240
so i did that for a couple of months
0:37:47.119,0:37:53.280
um so i was sitting in a office uh
0:37:50.240,0:37:55.839
talking on the phone emailing helping
0:37:53.280,0:37:56.560
customers with their problems uh online
0:37:55.839,0:38:00.320
shopping
0:37:56.560,0:38:03.440
wow or a wife completely different
0:38:00.320,0:38:07.040
yeah clearly what you needed at the time
0:38:03.440,0:38:08.000
yeah it was good for me to do that a
0:38:07.040,0:38:10.560
couple of months
0:38:08.000,0:38:12.240
because i was getting help from the
0:38:10.560,0:38:15.680
psychologist
0:38:12.240,0:38:16.240
during that time and when i had a free
0:38:15.680,0:38:19.440
time
0:38:16.240,0:38:22.560
i went back to the preschool to visit
0:38:19.440,0:38:25.839
to see how it felt when
0:38:22.560,0:38:28.320
i got all the help and i started
0:38:25.839,0:38:29.200
to miss the children i started to miss
0:38:28.320,0:38:33.040
being there
0:38:29.200,0:38:36.400
in the preschool seeing their smiles and
0:38:33.040,0:38:39.200
hearing them calling my name when i come
0:38:36.400,0:38:43.920
to work and stuff like that
0:38:39.200,0:38:47.119
so finally in december 2018
0:38:43.920,0:38:50.960
almost a year after lucy mira i
0:38:47.119,0:38:55.760
went back and it didn't
0:38:50.960,0:38:58.320
go as well as i hoped so
0:38:55.760,0:38:59.440
a couple of months later i said no
0:38:58.320,0:39:03.440
[Music]
0:38:59.440,0:39:05.839
yeah this preschool is no good for me
0:39:03.440,0:39:07.680
if i'm going to continue my work as a
0:39:05.839,0:39:11.680
preschool teacher i need to change
0:39:07.680,0:39:11.680
preschool and
0:39:11.760,0:39:15.760
what was it that was causing that
0:39:13.440,0:39:16.400
feeling is it just the familiarity of
0:39:15.760,0:39:18.400
the staff
0:39:16.400,0:39:20.240
or the place or what was it that was
0:39:18.400,0:39:23.440
making you want to move on
0:39:20.240,0:39:26.480
it was the parents of the children
0:39:23.440,0:39:29.920
and the preschool itself
0:39:26.480,0:39:32.720
the environment there
0:39:29.920,0:39:33.280
it was those parts meeting the parents
0:39:32.720,0:39:38.000
that
0:39:33.280,0:39:41.280
knew all about mira it was really hard
0:39:38.000,0:39:46.320
we told them to not talk with me about
0:39:41.280,0:39:49.040
my loss but there's some ebook
0:39:46.320,0:39:49.599
this is true i imagine some of the some
0:39:49.040,0:39:52.400
of the cheap
0:39:49.599,0:39:53.520
things they're helping they think oh
0:39:52.400,0:39:56.560
yeah
0:39:53.520,0:39:58.240
yeah absolutely they can do but
0:39:56.560,0:40:00.880
i imagine some of the children as well
0:39:58.240,0:40:03.599
may have well i've seen you
0:40:00.880,0:40:05.680
become more and more pregnant and then
0:40:03.599,0:40:11.040
suddenly you're not pregnant and maybe
0:40:05.680,0:40:14.160
they didn't have the the ability to
0:40:11.040,0:40:18.000
to question that i'm not sure
0:40:14.160,0:40:21.520
the wonderful thing with children is
0:40:18.000,0:40:24.800
they take everything so
0:40:21.520,0:40:28.720
clearly in a way it's
0:40:24.800,0:40:31.040
kind of black or white
0:40:28.720,0:40:32.560
when you tell something they believe in
0:40:31.040,0:40:35.760
it
0:40:32.560,0:40:39.200
so the kids were wonderful
0:40:35.760,0:40:43.119
i have this moment when
0:40:39.200,0:40:46.560
we are sitting and eating lunch
0:40:43.119,0:40:49.920
and there is a parent death
0:40:46.560,0:40:53.760
in the preschool that also tries
0:40:49.920,0:40:55.040
for kids and she just learns that she's
0:40:53.760,0:40:57.280
going to have twins
0:40:55.040,0:40:58.880
and then she lose them really early in
0:40:57.280,0:41:02.160
the pregnancy
0:40:58.880,0:41:05.760
and her daughter and she said
0:41:02.160,0:41:10.960
in this lunch time my mother
0:41:05.760,0:41:13.200
lost her baby and this girl she didn't
0:41:10.960,0:41:15.280
know about me and losing my kids she was
0:41:13.200,0:41:18.400
too young for that at the time
0:41:15.280,0:41:21.599
but i had this other boy and he
0:41:18.400,0:41:22.480
turned five that year so he knew about
0:41:21.599,0:41:26.319
me
0:41:22.480,0:41:30.000
so he listened to this girl and then he
0:41:26.319,0:41:33.440
looked at me and he said do you think
0:41:30.000,0:41:36.240
the famous author of the lindgren
0:41:33.440,0:41:36.560
that wrote people long striking if you
0:41:36.240,0:41:40.640
know
0:41:36.560,0:41:45.040
those books those are really famous uh
0:41:40.640,0:41:48.560
in sweden uh so and where i work
0:41:45.040,0:41:49.280
she is her birthplace so we read her
0:41:48.560,0:41:52.400
books
0:41:49.280,0:41:55.599
very much so pipi longstocking
0:41:52.400,0:41:56.720
if you ever agree them i'm aware of pepe
0:41:55.599,0:42:00.560
longstocking
0:41:56.720,0:42:03.839
yeah good well
0:42:00.560,0:42:05.200
the boy he asked me do you think that
0:42:03.839,0:42:09.520
astrid lindgren
0:42:05.200,0:42:12.880
is taking care of your baby in heaven
0:42:09.520,0:42:13.839
and i almost put down crying because
0:42:12.880,0:42:17.119
that was
0:42:13.839,0:42:20.079
such a beautiful thing to say
0:42:17.119,0:42:21.280
and that's the thing with kids they say
0:42:20.079,0:42:23.200
those things
0:42:21.280,0:42:24.720
they have these thoughts and they just
0:42:23.200,0:42:27.200
say them and
0:42:24.720,0:42:28.319
it's beautiful so the kids are not the
0:42:27.200,0:42:32.720
problem for me
0:42:28.319,0:42:36.160
okay not that this time it's the parents
0:42:32.720,0:42:38.720
and the environment the word
0:42:36.160,0:42:40.160
purity springs to mind with something
0:42:38.720,0:42:41.680
like that
0:42:40.160,0:42:44.079
like you said before it's it's almost
0:42:41.680,0:42:47.760
black and white and
0:42:44.079,0:42:51.920
yeah it just it just seems like such a
0:42:47.760,0:42:55.040
pure and innocent and yeah
0:42:51.920,0:42:58.400
you know instinctual i'm not sure
0:42:55.040,0:42:59.359
thing to say thank goodness it was said
0:42:58.400,0:43:03.280
as well because
0:42:59.359,0:43:07.119
i imagine it it did you some good
0:43:03.280,0:43:11.520
it did um
0:43:07.119,0:43:14.800
to have those natural questions that's
0:43:11.520,0:43:17.200
pure and innocent like you say um it's
0:43:14.800,0:43:21.040
so nice to have them
0:43:17.200,0:43:24.240
because all adults
0:43:21.040,0:43:26.960
they are like either oh no we can't
0:43:24.240,0:43:28.560
talk about this it's dangerous no no no
0:43:26.960,0:43:30.240
no
0:43:28.560,0:43:32.079
you're not supposed to talk about
0:43:30.240,0:43:34.800
infertility and you're not
0:43:32.079,0:43:36.640
absolutely not supposed to talk about
0:43:34.800,0:43:40.000
losing child
0:43:36.640,0:43:43.720
children it's nothing you can talk
0:43:40.000,0:43:46.640
about and i want to show that
0:43:43.720,0:43:49.359
absolutely talk about those things you
0:43:46.640,0:43:52.240
need to talk about them
0:43:49.359,0:43:55.359
because it's so common why do you think
0:43:52.240,0:43:58.560
that is that there's such a
0:43:55.359,0:43:58.560
a stigma such a
0:43:59.200,0:44:02.960
a desire not to have those conversations
0:44:02.240,0:44:06.319
that are
0:44:02.960,0:44:06.319
so real and so powerful
0:44:07.200,0:44:11.200
i think it's uh because
0:44:11.280,0:44:17.520
like 50 years ago when
0:44:14.960,0:44:18.160
you didn't uh you weren't able to have
0:44:17.520,0:44:21.280
kids
0:44:18.160,0:44:23.760
you adopt okay because that's the
0:44:21.280,0:44:24.640
was the way to have children if you
0:44:23.760,0:44:28.160
couldn't have them
0:44:24.640,0:44:32.480
on your own and and
0:44:28.160,0:44:35.119
if you look if you did lose a child
0:44:32.480,0:44:36.960
the hospital hospital told you the
0:44:35.119,0:44:40.640
doctors or the midwives or
0:44:36.960,0:44:40.640
whoever you met they told you to
0:44:40.720,0:44:44.880
just go home and start making another
0:44:43.520,0:44:48.240
child
0:44:44.880,0:44:49.760
forget about the child so people didn't
0:44:48.240,0:44:52.800
talk about it
0:44:49.760,0:44:55.839
it wasn't in sweden it wasn't until the
0:44:52.800,0:44:57.520
80s until you really started talking
0:44:55.839,0:45:01.040
about it
0:44:57.520,0:45:03.760
and as i told you the last time
0:45:01.040,0:45:05.280
my parents have the experience of losing
0:45:03.760,0:45:08.560
twins
0:45:05.280,0:45:10.480
and my father has
0:45:08.560,0:45:11.599
almost never talked about it but my
0:45:10.480,0:45:15.040
mother has
0:45:11.599,0:45:15.760
talked about it a couple of times so i
0:45:15.040,0:45:18.800
grew up
0:45:15.760,0:45:19.520
no knowing that i have the older
0:45:18.800,0:45:23.520
siblings
0:45:19.520,0:45:27.680
in heaven and i knew about them
0:45:23.520,0:45:29.680
but not much more than that because
0:45:27.680,0:45:32.000
my mother was supposed to just move
0:45:29.680,0:45:35.200
forward forget about twins and
0:45:32.000,0:45:36.160
have other children sure i think there's
0:45:35.200,0:45:38.640
examples of
0:45:36.160,0:45:40.480
um especially in britain we're seen as
0:45:38.640,0:45:42.720
quite a stuffy nation
0:45:40.480,0:45:43.520
uh we don't talk about sex we don't talk
0:45:42.720,0:45:46.079
about
0:45:43.520,0:45:46.880
death we don't talk about like feelings
0:45:46.079,0:45:49.280
feelings
0:45:46.880,0:45:50.160
or yeah we just kind of um the
0:45:49.280,0:45:52.960
traditional
0:45:50.160,0:45:53.359
view on that is keep it to yourself um
0:45:52.960,0:45:55.119
and
0:45:53.359,0:45:57.680
moan about it on facebook it seems to be
0:45:55.119,0:46:00.720
yeah stiff upper lip i think
0:45:57.680,0:46:04.240
that's difficult um
0:46:00.720,0:46:09.119
i assume it's come from
0:46:04.240,0:46:10.160
a social grace or like a set of social
0:46:09.119,0:46:13.440
rules that
0:46:10.160,0:46:16.640
came at that time that a better date now
0:46:13.440,0:46:17.200
and yep and obviously we've moved on a
0:46:16.640,0:46:21.359
lot even
0:46:17.200,0:46:24.880
even in even the last 10 years
0:46:21.359,0:46:26.720
like a lot has changed in psychology and
0:46:24.880,0:46:28.640
how we feel like we should treat even
0:46:26.720,0:46:30.720
children i can in britain at the moment
0:46:28.640,0:46:32.480
it's it's there's uh
0:46:30.720,0:46:34.480
you shouldn't uh hit your child you know
0:46:32.480,0:46:38.160
there shouldn't be any spanking or
0:46:34.480,0:46:40.720
smacking of the child um for
0:46:38.160,0:46:41.680
uh you know for like like a corporal
0:46:40.720,0:46:43.359
punishment thing
0:46:41.680,0:46:44.480
it's just been made illegal in scotland
0:46:43.359,0:46:45.839
yeah it's been a made illegal in
0:46:44.480,0:46:50.560
scotland
0:46:45.839,0:46:53.040
um so like they're moving forward in
0:46:50.560,0:46:54.839
in ways that probably even 10 years ago
0:46:53.040,0:46:58.000
people would have been like
0:46:54.839,0:47:00.640
what so i think as
0:46:58.000,0:47:02.800
as we move forward as as obviously
0:47:00.640,0:47:05.359
sweden as well as a different nation but
0:47:02.800,0:47:07.119
as as communities move forward and
0:47:05.359,0:47:08.880
people are more open about talking about
0:47:07.119,0:47:10.240
things and hopefully because of things
0:47:08.880,0:47:12.880
like what we're doing here where we're
0:47:10.240,0:47:14.960
having this open dialogue about
0:47:12.880,0:47:16.400
things that most people find difficult
0:47:14.960,0:47:18.160
to talk about or have
0:47:16.400,0:47:19.520
avoided talking about for whatever
0:47:18.160,0:47:22.640
reason whether it be
0:47:19.520,0:47:24.079
a stigma or because of some
0:47:22.640,0:47:25.839
other reason that's stopping them from
0:47:24.079,0:47:27.839
wanting to talk
0:47:25.839,0:47:29.520
um i'm not saying that this is going to
0:47:27.839,0:47:30.319
change our podcast is going to change
0:47:29.520,0:47:32.800
the world
0:47:30.319,0:47:34.400
at night but the fact the fact that
0:47:32.800,0:47:36.000
we're willing to do this
0:47:34.400,0:47:38.319
i think is a step forward in the right
0:47:36.000,0:47:40.720
direction and shows
0:47:38.319,0:47:41.760
that people do want to chat people do
0:47:40.720,0:47:43.440
want to talk
0:47:41.760,0:47:45.440
and we're starting to break down those
0:47:43.440,0:47:46.640
social barriers that caused us not to in
0:47:45.440,0:47:49.920
the first place
0:47:46.640,0:47:51.920
which are probably victorian rules or
0:47:49.920,0:47:53.359
something that's come from like a
0:47:51.920,0:47:55.680
historic
0:47:53.359,0:47:57.040
reason where we where we were scared to
0:47:55.680,0:47:59.760
talk and now
0:47:57.040,0:48:01.040
we're kind of promoted to talk it's it's
0:47:59.760,0:48:02.720
almost like a different revolution like
0:48:01.040,0:48:06.240
it's the talking revolution
0:48:02.720,0:48:08.079
it does feel like it's changed in two
0:48:06.240,0:48:09.680
words that way in fact almost now people
0:48:08.079,0:48:12.640
are too
0:48:09.680,0:48:15.200
open um it's going the wrong way cancel
0:48:12.640,0:48:16.960
the podcast
0:48:15.200,0:48:20.079
but seeing things like um tick tock
0:48:16.960,0:48:22.480
becoming like really prominent in in
0:48:20.079,0:48:23.440
in social media and people talking about
0:48:22.480,0:48:26.720
all of their
0:48:23.440,0:48:28.000
their personal lives on social media and
0:48:26.720,0:48:29.920
like social media has got a lot to
0:48:28.000,0:48:31.440
answer for i think in this setting where
0:48:29.920,0:48:33.040
it's in context
0:48:31.440,0:48:34.720
and people can understand and see the
0:48:33.040,0:48:37.280
whole story um
0:48:34.720,0:48:38.000
i think this is much more healthy than
0:48:37.280,0:48:41.520
like somebody
0:48:38.000,0:48:42.960
putting up a single sentence post on a
0:48:41.520,0:48:44.960
social media thing
0:48:42.960,0:48:46.400
looking for people to ask questions and
0:48:44.960,0:48:48.240
then letting little pieces of
0:48:46.400,0:48:50.079
information out one at a time
0:48:48.240,0:48:52.720
do you understand what i mean like this
0:48:50.079,0:48:53.760
is this feels like it's more natural and
0:48:52.720,0:48:56.880
more organic
0:48:53.760,0:48:58.480
and i hope that that
0:48:56.880,0:48:59.920
we continue in that trend that we're
0:48:58.480,0:49:03.040
open to talk to people
0:48:59.920,0:49:04.559
about things that once
0:49:03.040,0:49:06.079
they didn't want to talk about yeah and
0:49:04.559,0:49:07.920
it sounds like that you're saying that's
0:49:06.079,0:49:11.839
exactly what happened so
0:49:07.920,0:49:12.480
yeah but um your dads might want to talk
0:49:11.839,0:49:14.559
a bit more
0:49:12.480,0:49:15.520
in the future but i think that is a
0:49:14.559,0:49:17.040
generational
0:49:15.520,0:49:19.920
element to it ryan as you said i was
0:49:17.040,0:49:23.599
wondering teres
0:49:19.920,0:49:24.079
is it easier to talk to strangers like
0:49:23.599,0:49:27.280
us
0:49:24.079,0:49:30.319
than it is to people that you know
0:49:27.280,0:49:31.680
yeah it is why
0:49:30.319,0:49:34.000
i think i know the answer but what
0:49:31.680,0:49:37.200
you're going to say
0:49:34.000,0:49:40.559
well um we can take
0:49:37.200,0:49:44.319
my side of the family and since
0:49:40.559,0:49:46.079
my older sister did gave birth to her
0:49:44.319,0:49:49.440
baby
0:49:46.079,0:49:53.280
the week before neil was born
0:49:49.440,0:49:57.520
it's like my family focus
0:49:53.280,0:50:02.079
on that girl and
0:49:57.520,0:50:05.520
yeah they they ask us uh how it's going
0:50:02.079,0:50:08.400
i am am i pregnant again or
0:50:05.520,0:50:08.960
things like that questions that i have
0:50:08.400,0:50:11.200
told them
0:50:08.960,0:50:14.400
please don't ask because we will tell
0:50:11.200,0:50:17.920
you when we have something to tell you
0:50:14.400,0:50:21.520
uh so yeah they they don't ask us
0:50:17.920,0:50:23.440
anymore how we are coping have you been
0:50:21.520,0:50:26.480
to the memorial
0:50:23.440,0:50:30.000
ground or things like that
0:50:26.480,0:50:34.160
and so open up and
0:50:30.000,0:50:37.839
talk with you it's much easier because
0:50:34.160,0:50:41.200
you are not afraid to ask me questions
0:50:37.839,0:50:43.520
and that feels good it feels good to
0:50:41.200,0:50:45.599
get those questions and to answer them
0:50:43.520,0:50:48.800
and telling my story
0:50:45.599,0:50:52.240
and also the most important
0:50:48.800,0:50:55.839
if my story helps someone else
0:50:52.240,0:50:58.079
i have to share my story absolutely
0:50:55.839,0:50:59.520
i have a need to share my story to help
0:50:58.079,0:51:00.800
others
0:50:59.520,0:51:02.400
i think there's almost an element of
0:51:00.800,0:51:03.760
this that goes against ryan i don't know
0:51:02.400,0:51:04.559
if you agree it goes against our
0:51:03.760,0:51:07.839
britishness
0:51:04.559,0:51:09.520
where it almost feels
0:51:07.839,0:51:11.200
unnatural it's maybe too strong a word
0:51:09.520,0:51:14.240
but
0:51:11.200,0:51:15.760
as it's awkward it can be difficult to
0:51:14.240,0:51:18.880
ask those questions because
0:51:15.760,0:51:22.400
unless you know someone
0:51:18.880,0:51:24.400
as comfortable talking about this
0:51:22.400,0:51:26.240
like we know you are you you approached
0:51:24.400,0:51:27.359
us when we put the caller and said i
0:51:26.240,0:51:28.400
really want to do this as there are a
0:51:27.359,0:51:30.000
few others
0:51:28.400,0:51:31.520
yeah that but if it's again if it's
0:51:30.000,0:51:33.440
someone you know
0:51:31.520,0:51:34.800
unless you have a very good relationship
0:51:33.440,0:51:37.359
with them there's always that worry at
0:51:34.800,0:51:39.359
least in my mind that
0:51:37.359,0:51:41.119
this might open up the expression we
0:51:39.359,0:51:42.640
would use as a can of worms it might
0:51:41.119,0:51:44.400
start something that maybe
0:51:42.640,0:51:46.079
i might be ill-equipped to handle the
0:51:44.400,0:51:47.359
person who's been affected might be
0:51:46.079,0:51:50.480
ill-equipped to handle
0:51:47.359,0:51:51.359
and i wonder if that's a lot of the the
0:51:50.480,0:51:53.440
reason behind
0:51:51.359,0:51:54.720
people not having this conversation is
0:51:53.440,0:51:57.280
genuine fear of
0:51:54.720,0:51:59.440
what's going to happen it's consequences
0:51:57.280,0:52:01.520
i would say it's to do with consequences
0:51:59.440,0:52:03.440
you're scared of damaging a relationship
0:52:01.520,0:52:04.800
you're a lot more scared of
0:52:03.440,0:52:06.800
especially if you got to see somebody
0:52:04.800,0:52:09.200
regularly it's probably easier to speak
0:52:06.800,0:52:11.200
to people you're more estranged with
0:52:09.200,0:52:13.359
even in your own family than would be to
0:52:11.200,0:52:15.040
speak to somebody you see every day
0:52:13.359,0:52:16.960
just for the reason that you have to see
0:52:15.040,0:52:18.640
that person again look them in the eyes
0:52:16.960,0:52:21.280
and if you've made
