Listen Now

President Nelson has encouraged Latter-day Saints to take personal responsibility for their own learning, but not many members do, relying heavily upon borrowed testimonies and lessons at church.  In 2018, as Pres. Nelson introduced the new home centered, church supported gospel instruction plan, he said, “We are each responsible for our individual spiritual growth”.  In this episode Christopher and Riley discuss the implications of this individual, spiritual responsibility.  They dig into methods, resources, and modalities for rich spiritual growth that can carry you through your mid-life crises and doldrums, while providing support for developing family members and friends on the path of discipleship.

In this episode, Christopher and Riley talk about Heavenly Mother with Kathryn Knight Sonntag, author of a collection of poems on the Divine Feminine entitled, The Tree at the Center (Common Consent, 2019) and a second book on the Goddess, The Mother Tree: Discovering the Love and Wisdom of Our Divine Mother (Faith Matters, 2022).

In this episode Chris & Riley are joined by Dr. Sahar Qumsiyeh.  Dr. Qumsiyeh is a Palestinian American Christian who grew up in Bethlehem under Israeli occupation, attended BYU, joined the Church of Jesus Christ, studied in Turkey, and returned to Palestine, before taking a permanent position at BYU-Idaho as a math professor.  She recounts her vivid experiences living under a brutally segregationist regime and how it shaped her upbringing.  She describes her conversion and ultimate reconciliation to the Jewish people as she prayed for and received the love of Christ for her fellow children of God.  Her story gives us hope for the establishment of the true Zion and the future gathering of Israel as a global reconciliation of all God’s children.

For this episode Christopher and Riley were pleased to welcome artist, architect, husband, father, and scripture junkie, Bob Sonntag, to discuss the power of ritual in family and community spiritual practice, language, art, space, and song.  Bob has spent considerable time studying ritual in sacred texts and his art reflects this focus on transformation through participatory remembrance.  He has also integrated ritual into his family dynamics to connect individuals through generations.  They discuss connecting with the “heavenly and timeless” eternal through participating in and contemplating cosmic ritual.

In this episode of Latter-day Contemplation, Christopher and Riley were joined by Jana Johnson Spangler to pay tribute to the life and legacy of Franciscan friar, Richard Rohr.  Father Rohr, as an ecumenical teacher, speaker, and author is largely responsible for the modern resurgence in popularity of contemplative practices.  He has successfully brought together teachers from many Christian denominations into The Living School, teaching perennial truths about the universal nature of the Christ, our mutual, inborn dwelling with God the creator of all flesh, and the brotherhood of man.  His message of inner and relational peace has drawn a following of millions.

In Episode 74, Christopher and Riley revisit a topic they’ve previously spoken about on the podcast, but from a different perspective.  Episode 5: On Peace deals with inner peace, while this one deals with interpersonal, relational, and world peace.  They explore the LDS doctrinal case for renouncing war in Sec. 98 as a springboard to a larger discussion about practical application of peace, as exemplified by Jesus, the anti-nephi-lehis, St. Maximilian and others.  They make a case for a non-violent reading of scripture, particularly the Book of Mormon and challenge the listener to take small proactive steps, in concert with others, forming a grassroots movement towards a peaceful world. The War Prayer, Mark Twain  We are a Warlike People | Renounce War and Proclaim Peace First Presidency Statement on Basing of MX Missile (churchofjesuschrist.org) Record of Martyrdom of St. Maximilian, Pg. 244, Acts of The Christian Martyrs, Musurillo

For this episode, Christopher and Riley are joined by LDPS member and contributor, Jeffrey Goddard, for a wide-ranging discussion on justice, sin & righteousness, good & evil, and atonement.  In the past year Jeff read or listened to 200 books, and wrote one of his own - The Physician Christ.  As a medical practitioner he tends to see the world through a scientific lens which adds critical context to the discussion of individual and social development.  Our hosts make it a point to avoid strict, objective definitions of these constructed ideas, but instead try to problematize prevailing understandings so as to point the listener to a more holistic, and universally restorative Christian discipleship; one less concerned with being right about doctrine and more concerned with being in right relationship, with God and each other.

In this episode of Latter-day Contemplation, Christopher and Riley are joined by a friend of the program and Carl Jung fan, Morgan Aldous, to discuss the concept of the Jungian Shadow.  Morgan is a life coach who has spent considerable time in the study of psychology, philosophy, and religion as the means to personal transformation.  This concept of The Shadow, which historically finds expression in scripture, mystical poetry and experience, visual & performance art, great literature, and formal psychological treatment methodology has application for those of us pursuing a spiritual path of personal development as well.   In his first interaction with Father Adam and Mother Eve, Lucifer, the father of lies, inducts our primeval ancestors into the cult of binary thought; wherein, they are led to believe that the world is composed of diametrically opposing polarities, repelling each other at all times, totally incompatible with oneness and unity.  This allegory could be interpreted to describe one of the challenges of mortality - overcoming the natural man instinct to misunderstand and misrepresent ourselves, compartmentalizing and ignoring our inner shadow, to the detriment of our spiritual development. Morgan can be reached at www.everyday7.com

In this episode Christopher and Riley draw upon the teachings of Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Epictetus, Byron Katie upack the stoic concepts of Amor Fati (love of fate, consent to destiny) and Objectivity as a means of better understanding Christ and our duties as disciples.  The evidence surrounds us; life is filled with adversity, or as a Buddhist might say, “life is suffering”.  Thermodynamics further affirms the inevitable death and dissolution of all matter.  Recognizing and accepting this inevitability can liberate us from despair in our darkest moments of sadness, anger, and grief.  Most of the circumstances that confront us conjure up impressions, judgments, and emotions (collectively: phantasia) within us, but are ultimately beyond our control.  The stoics viewed these circumstances objectively as largely deterministic in nature, but recognized the space between stimulus and response where we are given the choice to freely act as our best self, ethically, and for the benefit of others.  Christ is the archetypal model for this way of living and serving.  As he approached his impending torture and crucifixion, he accepted, not without distress but nevertheless freely, the circumstances which would lead to his death, as the most starkly persuasive example of service and love that can be expressed.  “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” - John 15:13

In this episode, Christopher & Riley take up a discussion on emotions and emotional intelligence.  They start from the premise that humans are (contrary to popular opinion) primarily emotional, not rational, beings.  Taking this as a given, they search for meaning in the emotional journey, and recognizing our emotional drivers, suggest practices to help us respond appropriately to our emotional triggers.  They meander into a discussion about sincerity in emotion (as opposed to manipulation) and imagine a God who only interacts with his children sincerely, as a means of supporting our holistic development into fully integrated emotional intelligences.  Relating to the God, (modeled by Christ, but too often obfuscated by scripture) who mourns with us, helps us to identify philosophies, conceptions, projections, and interpolations of men wishing to compel, rather than invite us to “come and see” or in this case, come and feel.

For this episode of Latter-day Contemplation Riley welcomes back Phil McLemore to discuss the power habits and rituals.  Habits can be positive or negative and ultimately become the structural backbone of our lives.  As we learn to use them in productive ways we are led to lives of inner and outer transformation.  However, habits have the potential to become an unconscious, soul and agency destroying cancer that compounds the problems of the “natural man”.  Bringing conscious awareness to the individual and accumulated habits which form our routines can help us replace entropic, destructive processes with what Christ called “living water”.  They offer specific ideas and guidance based on the book Atomic Habits and their own life experience which can help us break these unhealthy cycles and begin the process of rebirth into a new life.

In this episode Christopher and Riley welcome artist Greg Olsen. Greg is particularly well-known in LDS circles as a painter of Jesus. Our hosts had the opportunity to mine his experiences becoming a professional painter of religious iconography and images that convey the relatable nature of the Savior. Of course, he is much more than his public works and this conversation takes them through his contemplative practices, the nature of symbols, and simplifying our faith by practicing loving-kindness.

In this episode Christopher and Riley welcome Phil McLemore and Ben Heaton, Bhagavad Gita enthusiasts and students of Vedic wisdom, to finish our discussion of the seminal Hindu scripture.  Our hosts dive into the usefulness of the book, approaches to understanding it, and a few favorite passages.

The Book of Exodus can be divided into three parts: First, we witness the power of the Lord as he extends his arm against Pharaoh, sending the ten plagues and finally parting the Sea of Reeds, which swallows up Pharoah and his army, letting Moses and the Israelites escape into the wilderness. In the second part, Moses will ascend Mount Sinai and receive the law (Torah). The final section of the book is devoted to the construction and description of the tabernacle, or the portable temple the Israelites will carry with them over the next 38 years they spend in the desert. A three-part division is also seen in the Sinai episode where the people are gathered at the bottom, the elders are partway up, and Moses is on top speaking with God. We see a similar tripartite division in the third section’s description of the tabernacle with its courtyard, Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies.  Later mystics and teachers would use these three-fold divisions to describe the soul’s journey to God, labeling the stages with terms such as ‘purification,’ contemplation,’ and ‘union’.

In this episode, Christopher and Riley discuss one of their favorite religious texts, an excerpt from the Mahabharata, called the Bhagavad Gita. This seminal Hindu work introduces the various forms of Yoga as an allegorical discourse between the warrior prince, Arjuna, and the reincarnated God, Krishna. Contrary to the Western understanding of Yoga, this has less to do with stretching muscles and more to do with stretching the soul. Christopher and Riley share some favorite commonplaces from their reading and offer their interpretations as a starting point for those wanting to explore the beauty and great value of “the Gita.”

Christopher is joined by guest co-host Shiloh Logan to talk about the history of “Satan” from the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible through today. This is not a theological discussion but a historical discussion of how the idea of Satan has evolved. Shiloh and Christopher use scholar Ryan Stokes to show how the idea of “the Satan” was understood before the Jewish captivity in Babylon, how that changed and was possibly influenced by Zoroastrianism, and how the Dead Sea Scrolls solidified the idea of “Satan” that made it into the New Testament. Christopher and Shiloh also use scholar Elaine Pagels, to expand on how our idea of “Satan” affects and influences our view of the other and justifies us in our view. They conclude with a discussion of “Satan” through a Jungian lens, and conclude that the first step in improving our views of the other and our society lies in integrating our own “shadow.”

In a church with global proselytizing reach, which must outgrow its geographic origins theologically and practically, the Great Apostasy, as historically understood in LDS theology, has become problematic.  For this episode we welcome back our friend, Sufi al-hajj Daud, a.k.a. Dr. David Peck (www.ofsaintsandsufis.org) to discuss his contribution to the book, Standing Apart, a scholarly collaboration on the historiography of the Great Apostasy. He describes how to deconstruct and reframe the Great Apostasy through the lens of the universal ur-covenant or First Estate. Recognition of this common entry point on the covenant path helps us commune with brothers and sisters of divergent but related faith traditions. We highlight other overlapping ideas between faiths such as the light of Christ in a wide-ranging episode that we hope will open up to you a path of greater and increasing appreciation of other faiths.

Among the world’s many religions are shadow traditions that express the esoteric or mystical experience of divine union.  In Christianity this is manifest in ecstatic, revelatory examples, such as within restorationist movements, in monastic cloisters, and through spontaneous re-emergence among individuals and small groups accessing truth through mystical experience.  Parallel to the ascendance of the Islamic faith was a movement that drew from a deep and ancient well of mystical practices and understandings, called sufism.  In this episode we welcome Sufi master, al-hajj Daud, also known as Dr. David Peck to discuss his fascinating discovery of sufism as an active and participating latter-day saint, how it has enhanced his faith, and what we can learn from his journey and discovery.  His upcoming book and podcast, Of Saints and Sufis, will both challenge and intrigue those with the courage to continue the path of the seeker.

In the opening of his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches that the kingdom of heaven belongs now to the "poor in spirit", which translates as "the very empty ones". What does that kind of poverty or emptiness imply? Surely Jesus wants us to have an abundance of His Spirit, but is our vessel empty? In this episode, Christopher and Riley break down identity recognition, formation, and cleansing. They hit on what might be considered positive and negative aspects of the identity formation process, with a view towards the beatitudinal ideal of non-attachment to the identities of what many have referred to as "the false self".

In this episode, Christopher sits down face to face with Riley on a visit to Heber, Utah from Bakersfield California to talk about arriving at certainty through methodological doubt. The conversation begins with the uncannily similar methodological doubt of medieval Muslim philosophical theologian and Sufi mystic al-Ghazali (1056 or 1057-1111) and the first modern philosopher, René Descartes (1596-1650), by which each arrives at certainty through direct experience of what Descartes calls “clear and distinct ideas” and Riley and Christopher share their own experience.