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What’s up folks, today we have a super fun conversation with Pratik Desai, Founder and Chief Architect at 1to1. Pratik’s a Rocket Scientist turned Martech personalization expert He’s armed with a bachelor’s from Rutgers in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering He got his start at Accenture in Technology Consulting and later J&J in consumer apps as a digital product manager He later took a deep dive into Martech when he became Lead product manager at PVH focused on Salesforce Marketing products This led him to spend 3 years at Salesforce where he worked his way up to Personalization Practice Lead (Head of Delivery Services for Personalization) Most recently, Pratik started his own agency called 1to1 to focus on personalization strategy and implementation  He also runs a weekly AI Discussion Group to help folks keep up with the fast changing landscape of Curation and Generative AI He’s a well traveled, trivia loving full stack developer Pratik, pumped to chat with you today, thanks for your time!From Aerospace and Sci-fi to martech and personalization Pratik, you have a degree in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering as well as your pilot license, is this all a backup plan for AI takeover and you naturally shift to space exploration and interplanetary marketing? 😆Pratik’s answer:  Aerospace industry wasn’t as mainstream when I graduated and the lucrative Aerospace jobs were in defense. I struggled to see myself going down that route and… Accenture does a damn good job of recruiting engineers out of Rutgers Luck is taking the opportunities as they present themselves….which really just set the tone for my career for the next 10 years The pilot's license came after! After a few years of working in technology, I started to miss the thrills of aviation and decided to get a private pilot's license. The feeling of freedom you get when you start traveling is exponentially increased when you actually fly yourself there!  What does aerospace and martech have in common? In preparation to transition to my next question we asked ChatGPT what martech and aerospace have in common, it said.  Data-driven decision making: In both cases, the ability to collect, analyze, and make decisions based on data is critical. Technological advancements and innovation, specifically use of simulation and modeling tools: Both fields need to stay at the cutting edge of technology to be effective.  Problem-solving and customer-centric approach: Both fields involve solving complex problems while keeping the user in mind.  Integration: Whether it’s engines, avionics, control systems or landing gear or if it’s CRMs, CMSs, CDPs and MAPs… Both aerospace and martech involve the integration of multiple systems and components. Which one would you pick?Pratik’s answer:  Studying engineering definitely sets you up for success in so many different industries. The problem-solving coupled with the data-centric decision making puts you on a path that really helps you excel But the biggest parallel to getting things right would be integrations. In Aerospace Engineering, there are SO many systems that have to work together and if they don’t, the outcomes could be catastrophic.  I can’t tell you the amount of MarTech implementations that I’ve been apart of where integrations don’t get enough love, for various reasons: The source or destination system is owned by a team that wasn’t informed of the transformation The IT team has conflicting priorities ETL transfers are easier, so we’ll start there - and it just never becomes priority to make things real-time Etc  Science fictionWe’re huge fans of science fiction on the podcast, so I’d be remiss not to take a short turn here. I made a big assumption here but based on your field of study I guessed that you are a sci-fi fan… I’d love to get your list of favorite science fiction books or movies but more importantly I’d love your take on the speculative future of personalization and what that looks like according to Pratik?I recently read All Our Wrong Todays by Elan Mastai and in one of his alternate future timelines he describes a world where advertising isn’t just 1to1, it’s also tailored based on your mood that day, what you had for breakfast, events on your calendar next week. The protagonist’s big idea is to offer consumers a flat fee to opt out of ads completely, but it’s a big flop. In that world, consumers actually wanted hyper tailored ads.Pratik’s answer: First, I absolutely LOVE time travel stories. I think we, as a society, have learned so much about how the physical world works - it’s fascinating to see how movies/books start to build out the rules for things we don’t understand. With time travel, time dilation is a starting point - but then you’re really free to start building your own rules. Are we in a multiverse? A fixed timeline? A dynamic timeline? Some of my favorites in how they build out the rules and create logical consistencies: Primer, InterstellarThat being said, I TRULY agree that consumers crave hyper-personalization down to minute by minute desires - in my mind, the BIG question is whether or not you’re personalizing to remove friction and promote tailored discovery OR are you personalizing with the intent to misinform, and consequently influence outcomes. It’s SUCH a fine line and intent is crucial. My network and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this - to the point where we even had Y Combinators attention for a bit on a universal preference center. The rules of engagement are the problem because they’re so ambiguous: Where and when does personalization begin?  What opt-in and opt-out ability exists without adding additional friction? How do you balance guiding and promoting discovery with the desire to change behaviors? How does a customer's willingness to accept personalization change from e-Commerce to media companies? What control, if any, does a customer have over their personalized journeys with you? At what point should you trigger customer awareness that personalization is or isn’t happening? The road to building and launching 1to1The human side of launching a martech agencyYou founded 1to1, your agency in Oct 2022, at the time of recording you’re about 9 months into the journey. You’ve already surpassed what? 35 personalization implementations!Talk to us about the human side of this journey so far, how have you managed all the sleepless nights, the mistakes and all the contract negotiations?Pratik’s answer:  1to1, to date, has managed 35 MCP implementations ranging from eCommerce to financial services to the streaming industry The sleepless nights are real. In the beginning…. I was staying up worrying about where our work is coming from next. Now, I stay up worrying about how to fulfill the amount of work we’re partnering on. I’ve evolved to better sleepless nights  I’ve made so many mistakes and I plan on making so many more. I think the beauty of working in MarTech is uniquely understanding the power of experimentation.  I’ve learned SO much from all the mistakes I’ve made and that's allowed me to improve my processes, our codebase, our pitches, etc.  Starting overIf you were starting 1to1 today, what’s one of the biggest things you would do differently?Pratik’s answer: Definitely starting sooner - and taking more risks. I have a lot of conversations with aspiring entrepreneurs - and I’d say the biggest roadblock of folks starting is their fear of failure. The irony to that, is failure is such an important part of of success - I see a lot of great ideas and great teams walk away from what they’re doing because of paralysis before they even start. I probably would have started sooner - and I was definitely a little trigger shy on certain conversations and felt I couldn't figure out things like taxes, insurance, etc. That being said, I kind of feel things might’ve worked out the way they were supposed to - If I started earlier, I think I would’ve hired folks into roles that Generative AI companies would have replaced shortly after. Because I started when I did, by the time I needed those roles - the solutions existed to solve for them Project Manager - Spinach.IO + Butler ChatGpt - Junior Developer, Proofreader, Contract Writer Data and prereqs to personalization Data excellenceI think you’ll agree that one of the precursors to doing anything related to personalization is data. It’s the main thing holding most companies back, not the actual tech, that can come later. We had a full episode (#66) on data models and pipelines and tried to introduce that to marketers. What’s your advice to marketers to help them bridge that gap and can you walk us through a few real life examples of data going wrong?Pratik’s answer:  I always say that Data Excellence and Operational Excellence are the foundational elements for a omnichannel personalization programFirst, the data you have is: As important as the data you don’t have Only as valuable as how real-time it is Example story: We recently had a major win of a digital campaign where we ended up moving a product that was marked promotable with a certain amount of inventory by 10x its normal velocity. Well, our inventory was delayed and the product was not actually in stock. According to our marketing dashboard, we had a huge revenue uptick - but the merchandising team and the customer support team spent the entire weekend figuring out how to rush order new product and/or send appeasement coupons for canceled orders. 1 amazing marketing campaign, cost the company a lot of money because of incorrect data signalsSecond, the data you have, needs to be structured in a way that meets the needs of your business:Example story: We’ve had several customers who bought personalization engines (both Salesforce and not Salesforce) who then rushed to load their data and created undesirable consequences.  End-customers who were recommended products without proper style context End-customers who were provided recommendations that they did not qualify for Etc. Those are awesome examples, it’s important to partner closely with your data team, try to get to

Today, we are diving deep into a topic that's pertinent in our fast-paced, hyper-connected world… no not AI, taking a break from that haha - Talking about escapism, and the importance of disconnecting from work. On the show we like to balance the hard martech topics but also the human angle. This is an episode that feels quite timely. In a time where being 'always-on' is the norm, and our work Slack is just a ping away, it's crucial to understand the significance of stepping back. Escapism isn't just about dodging reality or ignoring responsibilities; it's about giving our minds the necessary break to recharge and rejuvenate. I’m a big fan of fiction and love sharing top TV show and book picks and always wanted to find an excuse to do this on the podcast so what better way to do it then an episode about the benefits of escapism and detaching from work. So stay tuned later in the episode for my fav TV shows and books.Here’s today’s main takeaway: When used properly, escapism through fictional narratives is an essential aspect of maintaining our mental health, enhancing our overall creativity and helping us become better humans. The irony of recording this episode on the weekend isn’t lost on me, but this is my hobby and we’re having our best month ever on the podcast so I wanted to keep the momentum going and continue giving JT a bit of a break. Here’s a quick outline of what I’ll cover today: Definitions, what is escapism, what is healthy, escapism and what’s the difference between meditation The importance of disconnecting from work and how to successfully do this What happens to your brain when you indulge in fictional narratives  Strategies for healthy escapism My top TV shows and my top books How to strike a balance and avoid over-reliance  I’ll start off by confessing that I didn’t always think this (that escapism is an essential aspect of maintaining our mental health and enhancing our creativity). In my younger career, I fully embodied the idea that an hour spent on learning things that can’t help your career is an hour wasted. If I read a book, it was about business or marketing.If I was listening to a podcast, it was about marketing automation.If I was reading a blog or a newsletter, it was about martech.If I was watching Youtube videos it was Photoshop tutorials.While this is great and likely contributed to increased performance at work, it didn’t give my brain the break it needed to disconnect from work topics.Movies and TV shows were the exception though. If I watched a movie it was sometimes a documentary about consumerism or psychology but movies were where I got my main dose of fiction. I grew up an avid movie buff and watched all the classics and most of IMDB’s top 250 movies of all time. I didn’t grow up in a household with workaholic parents but they did love their work. My dad, specifically a photographer and video editor, spent a lot of his down time watching youtube videos and tutorials following industry tech and other photographers. He’s definitely a source for instilling this growth mindset in me. But what he also did was read a lot of books. Some non fiction biographies, but lots, lots of fiction. John Sandford, Ian Rankin, Peter James. I guess it kind of instilled this idea that you can be amazing at your craft, but still indulge in fiction.I’ve had several jobs that you could describe as high expectation, high pressure. I remember when the shift to remote work began a few years back. Working from home was initially exciting. No commuting, being in the comfort of my own space, it sounded amazing. But soon, the boundaries between my work life and personal life began to fade. My home was my office, and my office was my home. I found myself answering Slack messages on the couch and at dinner time and checking email campaign reports late into the night.The expectation to almost always be online to answer questions for teammates that work in different time zones was real. Reflecting back, my health took a hit, my personal relationships suffered and my anxiety grew.Some days were always more stressful than others, but I think aside from learning to build boundaries and deleting Slack on my phone, one of my coping mechanisms and what inspired my ability to separate work from home was the ability to disconnect, mainly through fiction.DefinitionsI should’ve started with this disclaimer, I’m not a psychologist or a counselor. I do work for a startup conquering addiction that employs a large group of clinicians and counselors, but I’m not an expert. I’m not saying, watching movies and reading books and ignoring your life responsibilities is the key to managing stress. It’s worth unpacking the positive and negative lights of escapism.  Let’s start with defining the concept of escapism. What is escapism?The common definition of escapism is a psychological concept where a person distances themselves from the realities of life, often as a coping mechanism to alleviate stress. This disengagement from reality can take on various forms, including immersive experiences in music, books, movies, video games, or other hobbies. I like to think of escapism less as an escape from reality and more as the ability to seek solace in alternative realities to give you a different perspective on your current reality instead of just focusing on the unpleasant or mundane aspects of everyday life and work. It’s a way of stepping outside of yourself, so to speak, to get distractions or find relief from real life. Healthy escapismMore simply, escapism is temporarily diverting your attention from the routine of daily life. That’s what many refer to as healthy escapism. Healthy escapism isn't about avoiding reality, but taking necessary breaks to recharge. These breaks diving into fiction stimulate different areas of the brain, promoting overall mental well-being. But remember, the key is balance. All forms of escapism can be beneficial when used mindfully and in moderation.Escapism vs mindfulnessThere are several psychologists who perceive escapism negatively. Often thought of as a way to avoid responsibilities. Excessive escapism could cause individuals to become increasingly disconnected from reality. It can become a crutch that inhibits personal growth and problem-solving, and in extreme cases, it can escalate into addictive behaviors. It’s worth calling this out. Some even argue that escapism is the opposite of mindfulness (source).While it's true that escapism can be a diversion from facing reality and seemingly at odds with mindfulness, it doesn't have to be seen in such a negative light. Engaging in a good book, video game, or movie, can provide a needed break from reality, which is not only healthy but necessary in managing stress. It gives us time to recharge and provides a mental buffer to deal with life and work.I’ll make the case more in depth in a bit about how escapism can also enhance our creativity by immersing us in different worlds, cultures, or perspectives and that this broadening of the mind can promote empathy, understanding, and a more nuanced worldview… these are all beneficial attributes that mindfulness also seeks to cultivate. I don’t see escapism as an escape from reality, for me it’s more of an exploration of alternative realities, adding to our cognitive toolkit.Also, I don’t think mindfulness and escapism need to be mutually exclusive.It’s all about balance Like I said, it's about balance and self-awareness, knowing when escapism becomes a crutch instead of a relief. In moderation, escapism can coexist with mindfulness, serving as a form of mental exploration while mindfulness keeps us grounded in reality. This balance allows us to navigate the challenges of life, the unpredictable world, in a more resilient, adaptable, and emotionally robust manner. So rather than viewing escapism solely as a negative trait, we can acknowledge its potential for providing respite, promoting creativity, and aiding personal development when used responsibly alongside mindfulness practices.The importance of disconnecting from workI think it goes without saying, everyone knows that despite how challenging it might be to delineate the boundaries between our professional and personal lives, disconnecting from work is not only important; it is vital for our holistic well-being.A former boss once compared our brains to engines in race cars. Just like race cars need several pit-stops for fuel and maintenance, our minds need periods of rest to maintain optimal performance. When we are constantly engaged in work-related tasks and it bleeds into our sleep and our dreams, we are essentially driving that vehicle non-stop, increasing the risk of burnout - the equivalent of an engine breakdown.Disconnecting from work allows our minds to shift gears, leaving the high-speed freeway of work stress and entering the scenic route of relaxation and recovery. It offers space for our brains to breathe, recover, and re energize. It provides room for creativity to flourish, as our brains are free to wander and explore new ideas outside the realm of work-related concerns.Moreover, this disconnection reinforces our identity outside of our work roles, nurturing our relationships, hobbies, and interests that make us who we are beyond our professional titles. In essence, disconnecting from work reaffirms the often-forgotten truth spoken by the wise Dalai Lama: we are human beings, not human doings. How to successfully disconnect from workWe’ve covered the topic of how to successfully disconnect from work in previous episodes. In fact, at the end of every guest interview, we ask how do they remain happy and successful in their career, how do they find balance between all the things they’re working on while staying happy? In episode 50, we rounded up the answers from all of our guests and it features fascinating strategies. Strategies include ways to change your perspectives, how to think about autonomy, prioritizing family, exercising, ditching everyone else’s definition of success… but if I was to interview myself for this question, I think I’d at least give credit to escapis

What’s up folks, today we’re joined by Bobby Tichy, he’s Co-Founder and Chief Solutions Officer at Stitch. Bobby’s a highly respected Martech veteran having spent over a decade working in technical roles for some of the biggest names in martech:He spent a combined 6.5 years working on the Professional services teams at arguably 2 of the most well known companies in martech, Salesforce and Marketo where he was able to lead and support countless implementation projects for some of the biggest brands in the world.At Salesforce he focused on Marketing Cloud technical and functional architecture. At Marketo he focused on project and program management.In 2016, he left the in-house world and jumped to the agency side of martech working at Lev (a premier Salesforce consultancy) for 6+ years where he focused on Marketing and Enterprise architecture solutions. He also co-founded the In the Clouds Podcast, a show about Salesforce Marketing Cloud.Last year, after Lev was acquired by Cognizant, he co-founded Stitch leading their solutions team. Stitch is a new martech consultancy that specializes in Segment and Braze tech stacks.Bobby’s an expert in all things marketing technology architecture, customer data platforms, customer journeys and Dachshund dogs as the proud dog dad of 3. Bobby, welcome to the show, pumped to chat today.In-house vs agencyI’d love to start by getting your take on agency vs in-house, pros and cons and maybe get the inside scoop on going from SF to arch-nemesis Marketo a few years ago?I think the, the easiest way to think about agency versus in-house is when I was at Salesforce and Marketo, you’re really just focused on the specific problem as it relates to the technology. So that might be implementing, you know, Salesforce, Marketing Cloud or implementing Marketo for a particular customer. But when we’re on the consulting side or the consultancy side, you’re really more focused on that customer. So what problem are we trying to solve? It’s much more about business problems and outcomes than it is technology problems and outcomes.That’s probably the best way to think about it. Or at least the the biggest delineation that I’ve seen over the years, which the consulting side is so much more fun and so much more complex. It has each has its own challenges.On the SF to Marketo switch, I think I I was so naive at that point I had no clue that it was like moving to their arch nemesis. Now it would be like going from Braze to Iterable or you know something along those lines. And it was interesting because I even remember at the time, once I got to Marketo, there were all these kind of rumblings. You never know if they were founded or not. But you know when Exact Target got acquired by Salesforce, was it, you know, who are the other bidders? And I don’t know if you ever listened to the Acquired Podcast, but there’s an episode of Acquired on Exact Target and Scott Dorsey goes through like that whole process. Which is pretty neat. And then he mentions the SEC filings, they actually have to disclose, they don’t disclose the actual companies, but you can kind of deduce who the other bidders were. It’s kind of neat to go through.But anyway when I got to Marketo, there was like all this conversation about Salesforce because the Salesforce and Marketo integration (at the time) was market leading as far as market automation platforms were concerned and the Exact Target and Salesforce integration was not all that great at the time. Now obviously that’s totally flipped, but at the time it was interesting because I remember my first two projects on Marketo and Salesforce, I would kind of throw Exact Target under the bus a little bit with the horrible integration they had with Salesforce even though they were part of the same company. But I I had no idea to your point kind of like the political elements of my switch at the time.Switching platform expertise, from SFMC to Marketo to BrazeSo you went from SFMC to Marketo before going back to a SFMC focused agency but now you’ve left both platforms and at Stitch you guys focus on Segment + Braze. Did you play around with Braze before joining?(At Lev) we had a couple of large enterprise media entertainment customers that were leveraging both Salesforce Marketing Cloud and Braze and so they would use SFMC for journey orchestration and e-mail and then Braze for mobile because it’s the mobile capabilities were so much better. The UI is a little bit better too, especially for marketers. And so that was our first introduction to that platform and then as as we were leaving Lev and trying to figure out what we were going to do next.Everyone that we talked to, people from Movable Inc, people from Salesforce, you know sales leaders there and other people in the Martech ecosystem, all of them were saying like Braze was really where a lot of the marketers were going because it combined a lot of what we all loved about Martech, which was the advanced use cases, the power of the data. But combined all that with better usability, more real time, better mobile capability. So it just seemed like a perfect marriage of what we had experience in, but then also what was up and coming?How would you differentiate the companies that use Braze versus Marketo or SFMC?These are broad strokes, so they’re not specific or like universal comments. But I think the number one thing that we’ve seen for folks who are using Braze is those teams are typically more innovative and fast moving where they’re relying on marketers to build out campaigns and be in the tool every day and where they they understand. I think the other area of that too is they have the best understanding of their data. So what’s really awesome about Braze is this, this real time or event based architecture but also the the ability to to layer in some of those things.One thing that we always came up against whether it was at Marketo or Salesforce Marketing Cloud was we don’t want to bring in all of our PII into the platform. And so you started to see like Movable Inc does a really good job of this, of being able to combine multiple different data sets and then just put to like push out a piece of content or copy that is personalized. But Movable Inc doesn’t require that PII, It’s just based on these integrations that are happening in real time and with Braze we can do something very similar right where I can call out to my Snowflake instance at the time of an e-mail send and I don’t have to bring that PII into the platform, but I can still populate the PII and the e-mail. So these things that are are really fast-paced and moving.I think the area where Marketo is great is on the B2B side. We always saw a lot of customers migrate off of Marketo to whether it was SFMC or Braze because they’re trying to use it for B2C campaigns or for high volume campaigns.Implementating Marketo at TeslaThe one example I always like to use, and this is years ago, but I was on the team that was implementing Tesla at Marketo back in I think it was 2015 and they were launching their Model 3 and it took Marketo about 8 hours to send about 2,000,000 emails. And so obviously I’m sure that’s changed, you know being seven years ago, but at the time was a big deal. It took forever, right? And especially coming from Exact Target, which was this unbelievable sending engine. I couldn’t believe it took that long. So suffice to say that was a bit of an escalation on the Tesla.Marketing teams represent the platforms they’re using just like Dogs look like their ownersThis is probably not a very nice thing to say, but, I’ve heard comedians say that dogs look like their owners. I think Jerry Seinfeld actually mentioned that on one of his Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee episodes. I think you could say that same analogy for marketing teams, they represent the platforms they’re using.Whenever you talk to a team that absolutely loves, you know, Adobe campaign. You know, it’s most likely going to be a pretty rigid team that has very a lot of different data silos and it’s kind of like the my stapler type of thing from Office Space, right?And then you have people who are using more innovative or faster moving platforms and they’re much more nimble and flexible. It was just last week I was talking with a client of ours and they have a 14 day email SLA for a campaign, which is not horrible, but it’s not fast by any means, right? And then we’ll have other clients who have a three day SLA from beginning to end of that email campaign. So it’s it’s just interesting the different types of teams you see using different types of platforms.AI toolsThe other big topic these days and not just in martech is AI. Maybe we can spend the rest of our time here, there’s plenty to cover.Job replacement and pausing AIDo you think AI will take over martech jobs, in 10-15 years? What are your thoughts on the current pace of advancements, should there be a pause?I definitely think there should be a pause. Not related to anything regarding Martech, but I just think that at the rate that innovation is happening, it becomes a little bit scary, especially when some of these AI systems start to get sentient feelings like what we saw come out of Silicon Valley a few months back. So I’m definitely on board for just you know, taking a brief pause. I think the hard part is globally do we fall behind if we take that pause? Do we think that China’s going to take a pause? Do we think Russia’s going to take a pause? There’s all kinds of other implications to that.AI implications in MartechI think on the Martech side it’s really exciting for technical marketers. And even for non-technical marketers, I think things that marketers always aspire to do like like A/B/N testing or optimizing campaigns, historically marketers are really bad at that and it’s not necessarily their fault. They just don’t have the tools to do it.It’s kind of like how I feel about attribution. I’ll never forget I was in a in a meeting with a client with one of our senior leaders at Lev and someone at the client asked about attribution and how we solve for that. And he piped in right away and said attribution’s a pipe dream, which I just thought was hilarious, but also a littl

What’s up everyone,If you haven’t checked out our previous 3 episodes in our AI series you might want to before this episode, we give you a lot of context around some of the events that have happened and will shape the conversation today.So basically How fast could AI change or replace marketing jobs? How marketers can stay informed and become AI fluent Exploring new paths to future-proof your marketing career in the age of AI Today we’re diving into specific tools… there’s a lot of noise out there right now.What tools you should play around withIn TMW #107 | ChatGPT and the artificial marketer, Juan Mendoza explains that“...generative AI tools are already everywhere. From text generation to video and audio production, to image creation, there’s a thriving industry of technologies taking small slices out of our creative talents, packaging them up, and selling them as a SaaS product on a recurring revenue model. If you’re wanting to stay relevant five years from now in the marketing technology industry, you’re probably going to have to learn some of these platforms. In 2010 we used to say: “there’s an app for that”. In 2023, we will be saying: “there’s an AI for that.””OutlineHere are some of the topics for this third AI episode: Key AI technology definitions and how to differentiate real AI tools vs all the noise out there Deep dive into tools Content marketing tools Email and marketing automation tools Predictive analytics tools Text to presentation and pitch deck tools 3D animation tools for product marketers Sales and outreach tools Text to website creator tools Ad and social creative tools AutoGPT and AI agents And a bunch of other tools like conversational search engines, 1-1 convos with celebrities and an even longer list of honorable mentions  Here’s today’s main takeaway:The key to future proofing your marketing career with the ever changing AI landscape is to stay curious, get your hands dirty and experiment fearlessly: Fill out some forms, spin up free trials, get on wait lists, and give new AI tools a chance. It's only by actually getting your hands dirty that you'll discover which tools truly work for you and which are just part of the ever growing sea of gimmicky AI tools.Definition of tech termsI’ll be using some of these terms throughout my analysis of some of these tools so here’s a primer explaining the three most common AI technologies used for marketing applications: MLMachine Learning): ML is a way to teach computers to learn by themselves, without having to be programmed for every task. They learn from examples and data patterns to make predictions or decisions. Applications include segmentation, predictive analytics and propensity models. NLPNatural Language Processing: NLP is a subset of ML and focuses on enabling computers to understand, interpret, and generate human language. Includes sentiment analysis, machine translation, named entity recognition, text summarization, and more. NLP techniques usually helps computers understand and communicate with humans using everyday language. GNNGraph Neural Network: GNN also a subset of ML is a type of neural network that aims to handle graph-structured data, data organized like a network or web of connected points. Applications include analyzing relationships between different things like users in a social network or users in your database or recommending additional products based on past purchase history. Real AI vs noisePart of the reason AI gets a really bad rep, especially in martech, is that anything that’s built on if statements or simple Javascript logic gets called AI. There’s still plenty of AI startups that shout about their proprietary AI when it’s probably just a few decision trees and a few interns running spreadsheets.Now though, you have an even bigger bucket of noise that’s essentially “slight tweak on Chat-GPT”. Developing AI that was comparable to human performance was a challenging feat prior to GPT's arrival. To achieve this level of sophistication, a company would have had to: make a substantial investment, amounting to millions of dollars developing its own algorithms performing extensive data cleanup But it’s so easy now because GPT is so good out of the box. Allen Cheng puts it simply. Starting a new AI venture can be achieved by simply assembling a few elements:  a product developed on GPT-4's user-friendly API a website,  and a marketing campaign.  This is why we’re seeing hundreds of AI tolls pop up every week.A lot of these GPT-based products are pretty much indistinguishable from one another. Maybe a handful  have a significant advantage over others but most are gimmicky. And over the next few months, every tool is going to be integrating ChatGPT features inside their products in the hopes of making it stickier.The threat of GPT-nThe part that I find trickiest and the most discouraging about building anything on top of GPT is that any progress you make on fine tuning GPT-4 will totally be wiped out by GPT-5 or GPT-n… Kind of like we talked about in a previous episode with all the tools GPT’s plugins killed. So let’s cut through the noise and dive into legit AI tools, the ones you should be playing with and experimenting. Content marketing toolsCopy.ai and Jasperhttps://copy.ai/ https://jasper.ai/ AI text generators are very common these days, the two most popular tools, especially for marketers are Copy.ai and Jasper. Both allow you to bypass the initial stage of writing where you face a blank page. The promise of these tools is that they help you in generating ideas, saving time on brainstorming and drafting, and ensuring a consistent production flow, freeing you to focus on higher-level strategic tasks, original research, and connecting with your audience.I’ve played around with both Jasper and Copy.ai before ChatGPT came out… and they were super unique. But both Copy.ai and Jasper are built on top of GPT, they essentially rent usage of the platform. So they built a pretty nice UI on top of GPT… but now that ChatGPT came out, I’m sure they’ve seen a drop in usage. Plus GPT-4 is 3 times more expensive.They still offer marketing specific value though and can get you up to speed faster than using CGPT in the form of templates, prompts and workflows. Both are super powerful, you could make a case that Jasper outshines its counterpart a bit, especially on the longer content format but it’s also way more expensive. Miguel Rebelo from Zapier has a solid breakdown comparison here https://zapier.com/blog/jasper-vs-copy-ai/ GramarlyGOhttps://www.grammarly.com/grammarlygo Grammarly, the popular spelling and grammar checker which has been using AI for over a decade already, also entered the generative AI niche last month unveiling GrammarlyGO. You guessed it, built on GPT. It has a particular advantage because Grammarly is already widely used and this is just an extra feature so to speak. Instead of just checking your grammar it can now also help you with drafting documents, composing and responding to emails, editing writing for tone, clarity, and length, and brainstorming ideas or outlines for projects within the apps you’re already working in. Lots of tools are going the Grammarly route in adding GPT features to their product, like Notion and more recently Superhuman.Other AI writing toolsSome of these specialize in SEO, some in long form content, some in short form… they all do similar things:Copysmith https://copysmith.ai/ Anyword https://anyword.com/ Writesonic https://writesonic.com/Copymatic https://copymatic.ai/ Yaara https://www.yaara.ai/ Rytr https://rytr.me/ Frase https://frase.io/ EmailEmail is just a channel of potential generative content tools so it’s not totally distinguishable from the tools we chatted about in the content category. Chances are that the Marketing Automation platform or the customer engagement platform you’re already using as a suite of features they are throwing AI next to. Most of these though are just ML.  Some tools like Iterable and Braze have propensity models to find users that are likely to perform a purchase event, that’s ML, and it’s only based on your data set.  Some tools like Seventh Sense throw AI in front of Send Time Optimization features, these have been around for a long time and are only based on your recipients. This is also ML.  Some tools throw AI in front of Sentiment Analysis features allowing you to analyze and classify the emotional tone of text into useful data. This is a subset of NLP that uses ML. Some tools like 6sense throw AI in front of conversational email assistants that are supposed to be a step up from static drip emails sequences. This is also a form of NLP and generative AI. You’re likely to start seeing copy assistants and additional AI features powered on GPT inside of these tools. I wanted to chat about one product that I feel like stands out from others in terms of being built around AI rather than it simply being a feature on the side.Persadohttps://www.persado.com/ One example I’ve seen (but haven’t used myself) of a CEP using more advanced AI is a tool called Persado. The two co-founders are former founders of Upstream in the mobile marketing space. Similar to 6sense’s conversational email platform, they’ve been around for a decade and they claim to leverage NLP + ML to create, optimize, and personalize engagement messaging. So they essentially analyze a bunch of data and identify the most effective emotions, CTAs, language, phrases to drive engagement. It’s worth calling it out because it’s more than just predicting user behavior and optimizing the best time to send a message, it takes it a step further by also incorporating NLP techniques, understanding the nuances of human language, and generating custom marketing messages that resonate with a unique user. One thing that makes Persado unique is it’s not built on GPT, it has its own model that’s trained on more than 100 billion digital business language impressions across industries. Potentially less data points than GPT but arguably better and more relevan

What’s up folks. This is part 3 of our deep dive into AI impacts on marketing jobs.I want to start off by apologizing that this episode might be a bit rusty, I’m attempting to record this while fully sleep deprived thanks to a 1 week old newborn at home haha Our daughter arrived nice and early and, yeah it’s been a wild change in sleeping patterns haha.In our first episode we introduced the topic and covered how fast AI could replace marketing jobs and what the transition might look like. In episode 2 we covered ways marketers can stay up to date with the latest advancements in AI.  Next up, 3. Practical changes and new areas marketers can invest in (today)4. Find the top AI marketing tools and filter out the noiseHere’s today’s main takeaway:  AI is already disrupting martech but in 5-10 years our jobs are likely going to look very different. Now is the time to figure out if you need to make changes to your current area of speciality in order to future proof your career.  Ask yourself if you should double down on additional areas like data and API services, getting closer to product and customers or starting to learn about ethics and data privacy. Today we’ll help you reflect on different options to investigate as you navigate through this future landscape and what job titles of the future might be in store for marketers. Here’s a quick outline of some of the new marketing areas to potentially focus on that might future proof your career if AI becomes as big as some are predictingOutline AI tech implementation, find ways to use AI and automate tasks Data and API services, exposing data from your business to let AI assistants leverage them Getting closer to product and customers, deeply understanding customers is always going to be something hard for AI to replicate Copywriting, generative AI is great at creating the familiar but can’t yet create the new Ethics, privacy and responsibility, AI is really bad at displaying the POVs of underrepresented groups And a look into the future at emerging tech, trying to guess some future job titles for marketers I have to admit, what spurred this whole AI series and what led to my diving into the rabbit hole was a genuine fear, or at least serious contemplation about whether I needed to focus on new marketing areas or pivot in some case.New marketing areas to focus onYeah it’s a totally valid question and probably something a lot of marketers are wondering. Phil you had a great episode previously (part 2) that covered how we can stay informed… let’s chat about what you can do practically about your current situation or at least start thinking about career transition strategies. Some of you listening or reading today are probably already in a really nice spot. Our podcast mission is to future proof the humans behind the tech and if you’re already working with marketing tech you’re in a really nice position to continue the shift towards additional AI and automation. We talked a bit about this in the first part of our series – but I think that AI developments represent that same type of shift that we’ve seen in the past. The change always seems bigger when you look back historically, but living through these developments are step functions not quantum leaps.Still – it bears repeating – the pace of change in AI is far faster than other emerging tech we’ve seen in the past. I think while the tech is moving blazingly fast, there is already considerable pressure to throttle development. One thing that is highlighted in that Goldman Sachs fear report about Millions of jobs being replaced by AI is that despite losing millions of jobs, AI may also mean new jobs and a productivity boom.The report cited that 60% of workers are in occupations that did not exist 80 years ago. Think about aht for a second. I think that all you have to do to see how fast things are going is to pay attention to the developments coming out of ChatGPT. I’ve used it a bit and it’s mind blowing what you can do with it. I asked it to design a workout plan for me based on my age and fitness factors. I specifically told it that I couldn’t be sore or too tired while I ramped up - I chase 4 young kids at home, after all. The plan it designed is solid.I think the bigger factor isn’t how to apply this tech, it’s how quickly will use cases become common place. It’s easy to think of an AI reading all your docs and chat logs and then operating as a support chatbot – but how fast are teams going to move on this type of work? What type of engineering is required by the existing team to get this in place? Why do we assume they’ll automatically lose their jobs? Is it possible the extra efficiency can free up time to be spent on higher order tasks? Have you met a support team that isn’t overrun with requests and also have big ideas on how to improve customer success? There’s a process to tech adoption, and I think it has as much to do with confidence in the tools, concerns around ethics/privacy, and actually figuring out how to implement this stuff.Every week there’s like hundreds of new AI tools coming out. We’ll talk in our next episode about some of those tools but obviously the first new marketing area to focus on is AI tech implementation.While the tech is new, the process of adoption is as old as time itself.AI tech implementationThis might actually not be that new in fact. Scott Brinker recently surveyed martech folks and the most popular task in this role is to research and recommend new tools. Some of those new tools are just going to be predominantly AI driven.https://twitter.com/chiefmartec/status/1647291680788283394?s=20 Most of the Twitter bros are in two buckets right now: AI is going to replace every job AI won’t replace your job… BUT Someone who uses AI will replace your job if you fail to integrate it. I think it benefits a lot of people on social media to stoke fears to generate buzz – and while there’s some truth to that, sure, one could also make an argument that AI could unlock an economic golden age.The question isn’t about the technology – it’s about human nature.As an individual contributor, I think AI will feel like a super power. There is no doubt that there is an opportunity out there for tech savvy marketers to use AI to level up and accelerate their own work. I think it’s fair to say we’ll see general adoption and benefits as well. Let’s unpack this.Peep lays it out nicely here, a nice niche for marketers is Ops folks who continue to find ways to use AI to automate tasks and find new efficiencies.He calls marketing Ops folks the new resident AI tech implementation experts, I really dig this angle.  https://twitter.com/peeplaja/status/1641781166016536579?s=20As mentioned, we’ve got a full episode on tools coming up but a nice place to start when it comes to implementing AI tools is: Data, personalization, media, chat Data, can you find ways to democratize data in more ways than you are currently? Personalize email, this one’s obvious for anyone working in marketing automation but this is going beyond marketing emails, can you help out with smarter sales-rep flows or outreach? Media, how many marketers on the team are spending too much time writing, podcasting or creating images and design that could at least be sped up for AI tools? Personalize chat, this one isn’t new but can you improve the current chat tools that are used by the demand gen team on your site, or the bots in your customer support team or the Intercom bot you have in your product?  If you’re on the more technical side of digital marketing - like SEO or operations - you’re probably not a stranger to data models and APIs. I think a lot of marketers are used to the idea of these more technical integrations – but if we take a closer look at being the person on the ground implementing these tools, you realize you need to integrate AI with your current tech stack. There’s a puzzle here – and that’s where Data and API services come into playData and API servicesI’ll go back to the grandfather of martech here, Scott Brinker, predicts that the future of content is Data and API services. Exposing data and models programmatically from your business to let AI assistants leverage them in the answers they deliver. AI optimized content will be the new SEO.https://twitter.com/chiefmartec/status/1639700537590390788 Scott also wrote the other day that AI has caused significant disruption in SEO and not just limited to Google alone, but he calls it code red for the entire digital marketing industry. Scott talks about composability, assembling different software components Hubspot’s ChatSpot is built on top of CGPT + HubspotCRM + Google Docs So it’s using NLP with domain specific data sources that you use CGPT4 introduced plugins, including Zapier, and any apps you have connected to it Personalization is a huge topic and outcome of AI but anyone who works in martech or marketing ops knows that today every company’s data is a total mess so adding AI and new tools isn't going to magically fix this.Personalization is easily a hot button use case in our current environment as privacy and security is a critical issue for marketers.Brands would love the ability to use AI to custom tailor advertising copy based on known personas. A company could come along and use a huge, global database to create a segments based on behaviour across platforms. So AI implementation and data integrations, those seem pretty seamless for martech folks and you might be thinking, well duh naturally, I was going to do this anyway.What if you want to take this in a different direction though. I’ll propose two marketing areas that you might want to explore getting more experience in that might be better suited for AI future proofing: product marketing and customer marketing.Getting closer to product growth marketingYou might be thinking that lots of folks are saying product and design are going to be supplanted by AI tools… Sure AI can help generate several product wireframes. But is AI capable of producing "leap of faith" concepts derived from customer empathy and genuine conversations with your clients?Part of a prod

What’s up folks. This is part 2 of our deep dive into AI impacts on marketing jobs.In our last episode we introduced the topic and covered how fast AI could replace marketing jobs and what the transition might look like. It's not like our jobs are gonna vanish overnight, but the shift is happening faster than many of us realize. AI's no longer just a loosely backed buzzword; it's doing things today that we used to think were impossible. So, as marketers, we've gotta take this tech seriously.Next up, 2. Staying informed and keeping up with changes (today)3. Practical ways marketers can adapt for the AI-driven economy4. Find the top AI marketing tools and filter out the noiseOutlineHere are some of the topics for this second episode: Staying informed, who to follow, courses to check out In person events and networking Exploring new sources of income Here’s today’s main takeaway:  The impact of AI on the job market is difficult to predict in 5 years let alone 10. The only way to future proof your career and position yourself to thrive in an increasingly AI-driven economy is by staying informed and developing new skills.  We’re going to double down on some of these in today’s episode. Commentary/question on shiny object syndrome vs being an early adopter. As a marketer, it’s our job to stay modern - it’s true of any job, but marketing is on the next level We self propel change and create our own reasons to change things up.  We suffer a bit from herd mentality as well – I think we tend to rush the new trend, be it TikTok or ChatGPT and choose saturation instead of consideration I don’t think the value of being an early adopter is being “first;” rather, it’s giving yourself time to immerse yourself and begin to master the topic To learn a topic, you simply can’t read 5 blog posts and master it; I firmly believe you need to get hands-on experience Shiny object - Try to make a buck, dispose of poor performer, invest in top performers; easily distracted by next objectEarly adopter - thoughtful approach to seeing new technology as part of wider trend; has playbook or process for learning and evaluating new tech, How marketers can stay informed and become AI fluentStaying up-to-date on the latest developments in AI and AGI is probably the top thing you can do as a marketer. Understanding capabilities as they are released or even pre-released. This allows you to get a leg up on others and see the potential impact on your company, industry and even job market as a whole. My goals would be to understand how AI works, its potential, and limitations. Most marketers don’t have a great grasp on this at all. Invest in learning about AI, ML, deep learning, and related tech. Ultimately try to arm yourself with knowledge to position yourself as a marketing expert in leveraging AI tools to drive revenue.I think you and are very similar in our approach to this: learn from smart people, and then jump in and experiment and get hands-on experience. Phil, your research process is always fire: who are the smart people you’re learning from? People and blogs to followThere’s waaay smarter people that are tracking this stuff. Not all of these have a marketing lens but they often cover marketing aspects. These are my favorite folks to follow.We’ll have links to all of their twitter accounts and their newsletters or podcasts in our show notes. Ed Gilhttps://twitter.com/eladgil https://blog.eladgil.com/ Ed is an awesome follow on Twitter, he’s an investor and advisor in some of the most well known tech companies like Airbnb, Coinbase, Instacart, OpenDoor, Pinterest, Square, Stripe and others. He worked at Google and Twitter after his company Mixer Labs was acquired. Aside from AI he’s highly in touch with everything tech and startups. He doesn’t post super often but he has a solid blog and he’s the co-host of No Priors podcast that features long form chats with the leading engineers, researchers and founders in AI. Ben Tossell (tuh-sell)https://twitter.com/bentossellhttps://bensbites.co/ Ben’s the Founder and CEO of Makerpad, one of the top sites to learn and work on no-code tools. He currently works at Zapier, focusing on AI after they acquired Makerpad last year. Before that he led Community at Product Hunt and later AngelList when they acquired Product Hunt in 2016. He runs one of the most popular AI newsletters called Ben’s Bites, it’s easily been my favorite daily way to stay up-to-date with the latest AI happenings. Sarah Guohttps://twitter.com/saranormous https://linktr.ee/nopriors Sarah’s a startup investor and the founder of Conviction, an early-stage VC firm specialized in AI startups. She made waves in SF during her time at Greylock, a top VC firm in the Valley, where she became their youngest general partner. She’s the other co-host of No Priors podcast alongside Ed Gil. She has an extensive network, and her close association with Andrew Ng (ing), the co-founder and leader of Google Brain, persuaded her that a "deep learning revolution was coming".Natasha Mascarenhashttps://twitter.com/nmasc_ https://pod.link/equity Natasha is a senior tech reporter at TechCrunch covering startups and AI and is the co-host of the Equity podcast. She wrote a super interesting article that summarized the discussions that took place during the Cerebral Valley Summit earlier this month. Ben Parrhttps://twitter.com/benparr https://benparr.substack.com/ Ben Parr is a seasoned tech industry analyst, he’s a journalist, author, investor, founder, and operator. Known for being Editor at Mashable and journalist at CNET, he’s also the co-founder of Octane AI, developing AI products for ecommerce.His long time column The Social Analyst covers the intersection of technology, particularly AI, and its effect on society. He’s highly entertaining on Twitter and doesn’t shy away from predictions and hot takes like recently when he pleaded that people stop saying GPT-4 can’t replace their jobs, he says “Yes, it can. It's only a matter of time”. So obviously on the AI enthusiast train. Shawn @swyx Wanghttps://twitter.com/swyx https://latent.space/ Swyx is one of my favorite twitter follows on AI, he’s always on top of new releases with solid commentary and his newsletter Latent Space offers a fascinating thought provoking perspective on generative AI and capitalism. Melanie Mitchellhttps://twitter.com/MelMitchell1 https://aiguide.substack.com/ Melanie is an author and Professor at Santa Fe Institute and works in the fields of AI, cognitive science, and complex systems. She’s a bit different from others on the list in that she’s way closer to the science and is a lot more down to Earth when it comes to the fear mongering and doomer arguments about AI. Her newsletter AI: A Guide for Thinking Humans covers AI developments and she gives commentary on popular headlines. In her article Thoughts on a crazy week in AI, she argues that to address concerns and potential risks, there's a need for better AI literacy, transparency, and independent evaluation.Dan Shipperhttps://twitter.com/danshipper https://every.to/chain-of-thought Dan’s the CEO and founder of Every, a newsletter on business, AI, and personal development. The publication is widely read by almost 100,000 founders, operators, and investors. He’s got a couple banger articles but even better AI commentary on Twitter. He recently wrote a fantastic article explaining how AI models, like GPT-4, are more focused on reasoning capabilities than knowledge databases. Britney Mullerhttps://twitter.com/BritneyMuller https://datasci101.com/ I first discovered Britney during one of her talks on the stage at Mozcon in Seattle when she was a Senior SEO Scientist at Moz. At the time she was already doing amazing work at the intersection of SEO, ML and Data science. Since then, she’s gone on to work at Hugging Face, one of the biggest AI builder communities. She’s currently building Data Science 101, a fun & accessible data science resource. Her twitter feed is filled with practical insights on NLP and ML with a bunch of marketing applications. Kieran Flanaganhttps://twitter.com/searchbrat https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtXqPiNV8YC0GMUzY-EUFg Kieran’s someone I’ve followed for several years, he’s a former VP at Hubspot and is now CMO at Zapier. He runs a new podcast called Marketing Against the Grain and they’ve been on an AI binge for a few months now. He’s worth highlighting here because he has a really good lens about how we can translate AI advancements and apply them to marketing. Rachel Woodshttps://twitter.com/rachel_l_woods https://news.theaiexchange.com/ Last but not least, Rachel is a founder and a former Research Data Scientist at Facebook who worked to bring cutting edge ML/AI to life in Instagram's ads products. If you run ads you've probably seen some things she’s shipped. She spends most of her time these days decoding what’s happening in AI with her awesome newsletter called The AI Exchange. It’ll not only keep you up to date with the latest headlines in AI but provide you with practical discussion and trends to help you use AI. She’s more active on TikTok than twitter if that’s your thing.Okay damn that was a lot of people… let us know who we missed!AI Courses1. AI in digital marketing, https://mygreatlearning.com/academy/learn-for-free/courses/ai-in-digital-marketing 2. Diploma in machine learning, https://uniathena.com/lms/student-dashboard/view-as-learner/303/8266 3. Intro to Artificial Intelligence, https://learn.udacity.com/courses/cs271 4. AI for Social Good, https://ai.google/education/ 5. Find 2,500+ courses,https://classcentral.com/search?q=ai 6. Marketing AI Certificate Program at Cornell https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/marketing/marketing-ai/ Alright so that’s a ton of reading to keep you busy and informed, what else can you be doing?Network and collaborate Millions of people work remotely and obviously during COVID in person events took a huge hit. But they could become more important than ever. Peep L

What’s up JT, good to chat again. When you aren’t podcasting or consulting, what are you reading or listening to these days?Yeah I’ve been BUSY. Bobiverse books, of course but also lots of Mario with my kids – haha, my downtime totally spent on guilty pleasures.Haha yeah you had a head start on Bobiverse but I overlapped you… that’s probably going to change soon for me… I don’t think I’ve announced this on the cast yet but my wife and I are on baby watch, first born arriving at any second now which s why we need to record a few episodes hahaI’ve actually been getting back into podcasts lately. Maybe I’ll plug a few of my favorites ahead of our next episodes. I’ve really been digging Making Sense of Martech lately. Juan Mendoza is the guy behind the podcast, he’s a friend of the show and he’s been doubling down on it, pumping out weekly episodes. If you want to go deep on some technical topics, in episode 37 he had the CEO of Hightouch Data on and he debates the merits of reverse ETL and they really unpack CDPs. Check it out.In the non marketing podcast world I’ve been taking a dive into the world of AI. No, not fluffy my top 10 ChatGPT prompts and buy my course type of content, way darker shit, like will marketing be replaced by AI in 10 or 20 years… sooner? My buddy Alex recommended The Ezra Klein Show. The episode is titled Freaked Out? We Really Can Prepare for A.I. On the show he has Kelsey Piper, a senior writer at Vox. She basically spends her time writing and being ahead of the curve covering advanced A.I.In that episode she says something like: “The AI community believes that we are 5-10 years away from systems that can do any job you can do remotely. Anything you can do on your computer.”Recently Goldman Sachs released a report saying AI could replace the equivalent of 300 million jobs. A day later Elon Musk, Andrew Yang, Wozniak and several other tech leaders wrote an open letter urging a pause in AI development, citing profound risks. So I went down a rabbit hole and it really prompted the next 4 episodes How fast could AI change or replace marketing jobs? How marketers can stay informed and become AI fluent Navigating through AI in your marketing career Find the top AI marketing tools and filter out the noise So basically1. How soon and how significantly will this impact my job2. How do I keep up with changes?3. Is it possible to adapt? How can I future-proof myself?4. How can I start right freaking now?!?Today we’re going to be starting with setting the scene and covering how fast shit is changing right now. Here are some of the topics for this first episode: AI isn’t new, especially for enterprise companies with lots of dataBut unlocking some of the potential for startups is going to be huge Will all these advancements just make marketers better and more efficient?or will it actually push founders to go to market without a marketer Marketing will have massive changes because we primarily rely on the ability to understand and apply existing rules and processes What does ChatGPT have to say about all this? What if AI is one day actually able to replicate human creativity and emotional intelligence? We’ll talk about potential mass unemployment but the more likelihood of new job opportunities How fast AI has disrupted other jobs already How AI might simply only ever replace the shitty parts of marketing Here’s today’s main takeaway: It's not like our jobs are gonna vanish overnight, but the shift is happening faster than many of us realize. AI's no longer just a loosely backed buzzword; it's doing things today that we used to think were impossible. So, as marketers, we've gotta take this tech seriously.Instead of asking if AI's gonna replace our roles in marketing, we should be talking about how quickly it could happen and what it'll look like if it does.A bunch of really smart marketers (and non marketers) out there are saying we need to hit the panic button. They're predicting that in just 5 to 10 years, we'll see a massive change affecting all sorts of remote jobs. Times are wild right now. So, fellow humans of martech, let's keep our eyes on the future and continuously evolve and adapt.JT I don’t want this episode to be fear mongering… I’d actually love to chat with people that are way smarter than us about AI and get both sides of the coin,  those who believe AI could have a fundamental impact on marketing jobs and that AI is as important of a paradigm shift as the Internet was… people like Darmesh Shah, like Scott Brinker,  and those who believe it will never completely happen and are still on the AI-skeptic side of things like Rand Fishkin I think it's ok to be a bit uncertain or even afraid of what the future may hold with this new technology.As humans, we face an interesting dilemma -- we are capable of using and creating technology that don't fully comprehend ourselves. Our society is built on layers of abstractions -- you don't need to know how water purification or plumbing works to turn on your tap and get a glass o water.My deepest fear is not that we adopt and use these technologies -- it's that we do so without considering the cost.The only thing worse than being afraid is being unprepared.I think marketers can benefit immensely from a boom in AI tech -- that easily could extend to basically any other human discipline.Truth is that we have to deal with the facts on the ground.I think there are a lot of smart people to consider following to get different takes on the potential of impact. We'll load the show notes with links so you can check out our research.AI in marketing has been around for a whileWe’re not just waking up to AI for the first time lol we’ve obviously talked a lot about it on the cast and have been playing with AI and automation tools for a while right?ChatGPT is my big one – Really love it as a prompting tool to help me round out topics; I’ve used it for a personal coding project and I’m pretty stoked with what it can produce.But even before GPT, as marketing automation admins, we’ve actually been playing with ML features… maybe not considered AI for everyone but things like: Send time optimization Automated lead scoring Sentiment analysis tools And some cooler shit like propensity models It’s worth saying that many enterprise companies who have data scientists and a boat load of data are already doing amazing things with AI.I’ve seen this first hand during my time at WordPress.com. Millions of users, billions of data points. We had an incredibly smart data team that built a UI that allowed marketers to build models predicting the likelihood that a user would do X or Y. We even had uplift models that allowed us to only offer discounts to users who were most likely to churn without a discount, but not offer them to users who would convert anyway. Many enterprises are doing this but the prereq is a lot of data, and the engineers to build the models.Yeah I haven’t had the pleasure of working for an enterprise with anywhere near the amount of data required for ML applications but there has been a change. Startups have a data team now even if there isn’t a ton of data.But what about for startupsRight so imagine a world where startups could do the ML applications described at enterprise companies without data scientists and without a ton of data. Using existing models like GPT-4 and basically everything available online as a dataset. But also in combination with all your valuable company data and tools (more on composability later). Imagine a world where as a founder, a non-technical founder, with AI tools, you can: design a prototype of your app build a website with a few instructional words build your own web app, including your backend write up a customized GTM strategy suggest growth tactics and even write message frameworks to help you generate users  leverage data from systems built on massive datasets to build your own propensity models  implement growth experiments We’re actually way closer to this future than you might think. And you’ll be able to do this: without a big marketing team  or a fancy marketing agency  and without a big team with expensive data engineers and data scientists. To be honest with you, what you described is a bit of a dream -- not in the sense it's not possible -- I think that you can do this today with some elbow grease.I think the interesting component is what role will humans play in this process. Are we directors nudging AI with prompts or additional data inputs? Is there creativity for us in that process?Even if a startup is spinning up the machine using AI, at some point a subject matter expert needs to get involved? Or is the future basically input an idea, output a fully baked product?Today, absolutely, in a few years probably… but in 5-10 years… maybe a lot less elbow grease than we’re comfortable with? Will all these advancements just make marketers better and more efficient, or will it actually push founders to go to market without a marketerThis is the big point of contention: Will all these advancements just make marketers better and more efficient, or will it actually push founders to go to market without a marketer… The AI skeptics and downplayers are just focusing on the negative details. You’ve probably seen a lot of GPT downplayers who critique the current AI. Wow it plagiarized Bob Dylan when I asked it to write like Bob Dylan Wow it got this date wrong Wow it got this citation wrong We get it, it’s not perfect, especially when you use it as a search engine or a fact checker. We can’t forget that it’s a text generator and a reasoning engine. It’s not AGI yet. But it’s already dramatically improved. In just a few months. Imagine in a few years or half a decade.What’s your take JT? In our no-code tool episode, you argued that it helped remove the dependency on subject matter experts… Do you think AI tools have the same potential?AI tools come preloaded with more instantly referenceable information than we could imagine. I saw a post on Reddit last year where a programmer taught ChatGPT an alternative syntax to HTML called HBML, using braces instead of tags.First, ChatGPT pick

What’s up everyone today we’re talking about marketing roadmaps. Rodmaps are usually more common with tech product teams and they are also very common in the project management world. It’s about giving your team the big picture and helping everyone align on project goals. Anyone who’s been in marketing knows that this is something super useful that can be applied to this practice as well.Key takeaway: While it doesn’t always have to be set in stone, a roadmap helps your team stay accountable to certain tasks and deliverables but it’s also a focus weapon that arms you with the ability to say no to new requests. You work on priorities and capacity, you share it with other departments for feedback and it becomes marching orders. DefinitionOkay so how would you define a roadmap?Definition: A team roadmap is a visual overview showing what projects and tasks will be worked on and when.It usually includes objectives, milestones/tasks, deliverables, resources, and a timeline.A roadmap can serve as a reliable reference guide to help keep the team on track and share with other stakeholders your key projects and objectives. So how do you bring this to life?So I like to do this quarterly. Usually I have a backlog list of projects. This is made up of ideas and things that have popped up over time that we want to get to eventually. From the backlog, you want to try and assign a priority. This exercise can be wildly complex but it can be a simple ICE exercise (Impact, confidence, effort).One keep component as you score projects is company goals and OKRs. Defining the business goals and objectives that the marketing team will work to support. This is usually trickled down in some capacity from management. It might include goals related to increasing brand awareness, generating leads, or improving customer satisfaction.Then you look at capacity, how many hours of work does your team have this quarter, subtract meeting time and PTO. One thing I like to do here is keep a buffer of 15% time for unexpected urgent tasks that pop up.Then you can decide what stays in the backlog and what gets prioritized for the upcoming quarter.There’s a bunch of different tools you can use for roadmapping, whether it’s Jira, Asana, Trello, Notion or others, they all boil down to very similar functions. Start with a list of core projects Break up the projects into sub tasks and milestones Assign task owners and deadlines Describe each task and highlight dependencies ToolsWhat are the best tools to developing a timeline for the initiatives and activities, including key milestones and deliverables.There are many different tools that organizations can use to develop a timeline for their marketing initiatives and activities, including key milestones and deliverables. Some common examples include:Project management software, such as Notion, Asana, Trello, or Microsoft Project, which can be used to create a visual representation of the timeline, track progress, and manage resources.Collaboration tools, such as Slack, Google Hangouts, or Microsoft Teams, which can be used to communicate with team members, share information, and collaborate on tasks.Gantt charts, which are graphical representations of the tasks and dependencies within a project. Gantt charts can be used to visualize the timeline, identify potential conflicts or bottlenecks, and adjust the schedule as needed.Spreadsheet software, such as Microsoft Excel or Google Sheets, which can be used to create a tabular representation of the timeline, track progress, and perform calculations.Overall, the best tools for developing a timeline will depend on the specific needs and preferences of the organization. By using a combination of different tools, organizations can create a comprehensive and effective timeline that helps them plan and execute their marketing initiatives and activities.What’s your fav tool?Trello never fails. But I’ve become a big fan of Notion.Yes, Notion can be used for project management and roadmaps. It’s usually thought of as a company wiki or a place to write memos, but it’s so much more… and if it can also help you manage your projects… imagine combining all of that in one place.Many teams have A company docs or wiki like Confluence They have a project management tool like Asana or Jira And then they have a bunch of scattered docs in the form of google sheets, google docs, folders That usually includes a bunch of emails also But imagine if you could have just 1 tool to rule all of these. At my startup we use Notion pretty heavily. Not every does this to a T, we do have some stragglers, but imagine a world where Company docs and memos are no longer emails or a various panoply of google docs Projects are managed in one spot and reference things in the same tool, no need for separate logins or extra credentials All in Notion. Notion is a versatile and customizable productivity tool.I use it personally but also at work, like I mentioned.But because of its versatility, Notion sometimes gets a bad rep when it comes to project management or roadmapping… I’m here to tell you it can all work in there.Notion has a database that enables you to have a variation of views on projects and items, it has templates, it has comments and tracking changes features, it can do anything Trello or Asana can and more.Identifying stakeholdersIt’s easy to assume you chatted with important folks before diving into projects but speaking from experience, forgetting a key stakeholder and realizing it too late can create major chaos.What's the best path to identify dependencies and stakeholders?Conducting a stakeholder analysis, which involves identifying and prioritizing the stakeholders who are relevant to the project or initiative, and assessing their interests, needs, and potential impact. This can help organizations understand who the key stakeholders are and what their priorities and expectations are, and can inform the development of the project or initiative.Creating a stakeholder map, which is a visual representation of the relationships between the stakeholders and the project or initiative. This can help organizations understand how the stakeholders are connected, and can identify potential areas of conflict, collaboration, or influence.Developing a stakeholder engagement plan, which outlines the strategies and tactics that will be used to engage and communicate with the stakeholders throughout the project or initiative. This can help organizations ensure that the stakeholders are involved and informed, and can provide feedback and support as needed.Overall, identifying dependencies and stakeholders is an important step in the project or initiative planning process, and can help organizations understand the potential impacts and risks, and develop strategies to manage them effectively. By using a structured and systematic approach, organizations can improve their chances of success and achieve their goals and objectives.Sharing your roadmapFinally, how do you share this roadmap?Some possible approaches include:Creating a visual representation of the roadmap, such as a timeline, mind map, or infographic, which can be used to illustrate the key initiatives, activities, and milestones in an engaging and easy-to-understand format.Using storytelling techniques to communicate the roadmap, such as narrating a journey or creating a storyboard that shows the evolution of the marketing plan over time. This can help stakeholders understand the context, purpose, and value of the roadmap, and can make it more memorable and engaging.Using interactive elements, such as videos, animations, or simulations, to communicate the roadmap. This can help stakeholders understand the details of the roadmap, and can provide a more engaging and immersive experience.Using collaborative tools, such as online whiteboards, forums, or surveys, to communicate the roadmap and gather feedback from stakeholders. This can help stakeholders feel more involved and invested in the marketing plan, and can provide valuable insights and ideas that can be incorporated into the roadmap.Overall, there are many creative ways that organizations can communicate their marketing roadmap to key stakeholders. By using innovative and engaging approaches, organizations can improve the impact and effectiveness of their marketing plan, and enhance their chances of success.Staying flexibleSo this is all nice and stuff but everyone knows, especially in a startup, priorities change. So you spent all of this time building and planning a roadmap but something new comes along.How rigid are you in accommodating this? Saving capacity for adhoc projects Saying no is okay How far out is too far out1 year is way too far out, even 6 months. Quarterly is my preference but some teams might opt for monthly. Lots of dev teams do bi weekly sprints or epics… it’s really up to you and how stability is in your org.Monthly I found was too much time spent on planning. Quarterly sometimes doesn’t stick. ConclusionSo as you set sail on your marketing voyage, don't forget to bring along the maps, compasses, and sextants of the data-driven world. With their help, you can chart a course to marketing success and avoid the pitfalls of uncertainty and unpredictability.✌️--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created with Midjourney

What’s up everyone? Today is a bit of a follow-up on the previous episode about building dashboards, check that one out first if you haven’t already.Today we’re taking this a step further and talking about data models and the limits of building dashboards.Here’s a typical stance on dashboard design:It is best to focus on the ideal scenario, and worry about the practicalities of implementation later, Or “let the ops team worry about that” as they call it. Haha yeah… This approach may seem appealing at first, as it allows designers to imagine and create without constraints. However, as a marketing operations person, I’m not a fan of this.Here’s today’s main takeaway: I believe that understanding how a dashboard is powered, and having a sense of what is possible and what is not, is a crucial differentiator.Too often, I have seen dashboard projects built in a vacuum, disconnected from the reality of the data and the systems that support them. In these cases, valuable time and resources are wasted building an idealistic dashboard that cannot be implemented or used effectively.Today we’re going to be breaking down how you can level up your knowledge about data models or the capabilities and limitations of the data and the systems that support the dashboard, and designing solutions that are feasible and effective. By understanding these constraints, designers and marketers can create dashboards that are not only beautiful and engaging, but also practical and useful.I feel like this topic could get hairy pretty fast, so let's break down some definitions for the listeners. Da hell is a data model, let’s start there.What’s a data model?Data modeling is a way to organize and structure data from different sources in a consistent and useful way. It helps to make data more accessible and organized, so it can be easily analyzed and interpreted.Gimme a non marketing example, how would you explain this to your mom?Example: A simple example of a data model is a phone directory. The data model for a phone directory would include information such as the names and contact information of individuals, as well as the relationships between them (e.g. family members, colleagues, friends). By organizing this information in a consistent and structured way, the phone directory can be used to easily look up and contact individuals. This data model helps to make the information more accessible and useful.Okay what about a marketing example, that was too simple.I’ll go with my bread and butter, Email marketing example: One example of a data model for email marketing might include information about the email campaigns that have been sent to different segments of your audience. This data model might include details such as  the subject lines,  Type of content,  Subject line keywords Main call-to-action  You would also have the results of the campaigns open rates,  click-through rates,  conversion rates By organizing and structuring this information in a consistent and meaningful way, the data model can help the email marketing team track the performance of their campaigns and to identify areas for improvement. For example, the data model might show that certain subject lines or content types don’t generate as many opens as some emails but they perform better at driving clicks and conversions, and the email marketing team can use this information to optimize their future campaigns. So why should marketers care about this? It’s to prevent shiny object syndrome and understanding where the numbers are coming from but also give you the ability to customize your dashboard.Exactly. A data model is the first step in allowing you to have a dynamic/interactive dashboard. Describe an interactive dashboard in simple termsDescribe an interactive dashboard in simple terms for the listeners. It’s being able to interact with the charts and elements to analyze different parts of your dashboard, for example; filtering certain elements and changing date ranges. This is what sets them apart from reports. For me, I see it as a personal assistant of sorts. An interactive dashboard allows you to easily filter, slice, and drill down into the data, revealing insights and patterns that might otherwise be hidden. Unlike a static dashboard or report, which shows the same view for everyone, an interactive dashboard lets different users explore the data in their own unique ways.What’s a simple example that most folks would understand?Imagine a sales manager who needs to understand the performance of her team across different regions and product lines. With a static dashboard or report, she would see the same view for everyone, with no ability to filter or drill down into the data. But with an interactive dashboard, she can easily select the regions, the individual reps and product lines that she is interested in, and see the data that is most relevant to her. She can even save her custom views, and share them with her team, so they can all see the data in the way that is most useful to them.Basically, a dynamic dashboard allows you to go from metric reporting to data exploration and analysis. In episode 64 we talked about GA4 so I have a GA example here.Example:Consider the following scenario: your marketing team has built a Google Analytics (GA) dashboard that shows monthly traffic data. The dashboard is static, which means that it updates every month, but it does not allow you to filter or drill down into the data. When you log in to the dashboard, you see the same view as everyone else, with no ability to customize or explore the data in your own way.Now imagine that, instead of a static GA dashboard, your marketing team has built a dynamic lifecycle dashboard that is powered by a data model. This dashboard allows you to filter the metrics by user attributes or campaign events, so you can see the data that is most relevant to you. For example, if you want to see how your email campaigns are performing, you can easily filter the metrics by channel. Or, if you want to see the impact of in-app messages, you can filter the metrics by that attribute. And, because the dashboard is dynamic and interactive, you can explore and analyze the data in your own way, without being limited by the pre-defined views of a static dashboard.Yeah. So where does the data model fits into this? Well the data model is what allows you to have a dynamic dashboard, especially when it comes to combining data from different sources. So data source > data model > dashboard? Is that the hierarchy? Yeah I think that’s fair.Understanding your data modelSo here’s a practical example:Let’s say we have two main data sources: New signup events from your product or website Someone signs up for our product and they tell us Use case and we Score them Email events from your MAP Email name Engagement timestamps So how can we structure this data and potentially join it together?I see where you’re going with this. Email or user ID right? They signup using an email and you're obviously sending emails to their email.Correct. Maybe a user ID or an email address. So in your data model we can group signup events and attributes with email events and engagement.So this is obviously going to be very different at every company. The stage of where a company is at in terms of data strategy greatly depends on priority and team size.But it’s super powerful. Yeah right off the bat, examples that come to mind are things like if you’re looking at free trial signups in the first 30 days, you can segment that metric by use case to see if a certain persona is more popular or look at conversion rates by persona. Or you can filter it by users who engaged with an email, how did they perform vs those who didn’t engage with that email. Yeah on our site for this episode I’ll drop some visuals to help explain this a bit more. But imagine key metrics like signups, active free accounts and converted users over the last 12 weeks. And Then imagine being able to filter this data by only looking at users who said they were building a photography website. Or users who had a certain lead score or engaged with a certain campaign or not.ConclusionBut yeah ultimately our thesis here is that even understanding some of these basics of data models will help you better grasp the limits of your dashboard potential and instead of spending time building a dream dashboard that isn’t currently possible given your current data, you can save time and build something practical and useful.Think of a dashboard as a map, guiding your marketing team through the data landscape. Just like a map, a dashboard needs to be accurate, relevant, and easy to use in order to be effective.However, creating a great dashboard is not as simple as drawing a map. It requires understanding the terrain, the data sources, and the models that support the dashboard. It requires knowing what is possible, and what is not.Yeah love that analogy, without this understanding, it’s easy to get lost in the data landscape, creating a dashboard that is beautiful but impractical, or engaging but irrelevant.In short, understanding how a dashboard is powered is not a requirement for all marketers, but it is a valuable skill that can make a big difference. By understanding how a dashboard works, designers and marketers can create a map that is not only beautiful and engaging, but also practical and useful.✌️--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created with Midjourney

What’s up everyone, today we’re taking a dive into the world of dashboard building.Startups may not always have the luxury of having a dedicated data analyst on staff, which means marketers may need to get more hands-on with data. Yeah I haven’t had the data analyst luxury in my career very often! In episode 38, we discussed marketing reporting and how you can use key reports to help highlight impact and find new opportunities. But we’re not talking about reports here right?That’s right, dashboards aren’t reports. They are living breathing snapshots of key areas you want to keep an eye on in your business.Yeah I think a lot of people don’t make that distinction and just assume reports = dashboards = chart. Where should marketers be starting? With charts?Scatter plots, bar charts, pie charts, maps, funnels, box plots… There’s a bunch of different chart types and visualizations at your disposal when you're designing your dashboard, but this isn’t where you should start.Here’s today’s main takeaway: When designing a dashboard, it's important to focus on the decisions you want to make, rather than just the metrics you want to track. Before building your dashboard, consider your audience and bring together the right people to answer key questions. This will help you create a prototype of your first version.Dashboard projects are close to both of our hearts. Both having worked for Klipfolio (a dashboard SaaS for startups and SMBs), we’ve spent a fair amount of time researching and writing about the internal dashboard building process.There’s obviously a critical collaboration piece to this that would be an initial starting point for anyone taking on a dashboard project. Yeah one thing we always said about building good dashboards is that it takes a village.So Phil, you’ve actually led the charge in this area at a few startups. What are some of the questions you should be asking as a marketer to get started?Questions before buildingThe first questions to tackle as a team are: What metrics would you look at on a regular basis to measure performance and determine areas for growth? What metrics do you care about the most?So ultimately, this depends entirely on your team goals and the top priority metrics we’ve selected as a group. These goals further inform how to prioritize views and metrics in our dashboard. What does this group of stakeholders look like when you’re starting to build things?Stakeholder groups: Main viewers: Who will be digesting or regularly looking at the dashboard Marketing Ops/Data Ops: What resources to you have to help you build the dashboard Designer and point person: Who’s scoping out the dashboard and driving project management as well as designing the end dashboard Admittedly, in startup land, you’ll likely be wearing all three hats. I know I have. But in bigger teams, you’re working with a lot more moving pieces. Yeah I’ve gotten a taste of both of these. Small teams and bigger teams. There’s advantages to both. But I think regardless, it’s important to get a lay of the land first.Yeah it might be helpful to walk through an example. You’ve been pretty deep in lifecycle marketing in your career. Maybe give us a real life example wearing a lifecycle hat. So Phil, you’re Director of lifecycle and you’re tasked with building out a lifecycle dashboard.Here’s a list of example questions to ask yourself and stakeholders Yeah I like the lifecycle example actually. It’s broad enough to touch most parts of marketing so I can  use it as goal posts as we unpack some of this stuff.Your goal with these questions is to figure out what metrics we care about the most, getting a benchmark and establishing a goal for each of these metrics and how they have been trending over time. Current segment/vertical data we get on signups, are there specific segments we know we want to grow? Current lead scoring on signup events, are we scoring leads based on email and domain and any other data we might be collecting? What’s the current activation rates of signups after the first email, what’s our deliverability rate on the first email to signups? Are there specific lifecycle status labels that we are currently using, ie Content lead/subscriber > Signup > Active/published site > Upgraded. Do we currently have micro stages/do we care about this detail, ie in between signup and active we might have, installed theme, created a page and created a menu. Do we currently have the ability to attribute multi touch events for email engagements? Meaning, if a signup opens a pricing email on day 4 and they click the plans link and they buy 2 hours later, is that email getting $%? With all of this information on hand, or at least identifying areas of focus and priority metrics, you can then start scoping out the first prototype of the dashboard, intentionally with too much information, with the hopes of cutting things out in following iterations. Exactly. Next we can talk about metrics that flow in from those questions. What metrics you should consider for the first prototypeThe critical piece of this phase is to spend time understanding the most important things to monitor and give ourselves time to explore different ideas before rolling out a finished dashboard.Here are the core areas of a lifecycle dashboard, with a focus on conversion rates, starting at signups (explicitly did not scope content lead > signup): Signups, signups by segment, signups by lead score Confirmations, signups > confirmation %, deliverability Active (published a site) Behaviors (installed a theme, >2 pages, menu) Email metrics, engagement score, top emails, ab tests Conversions to plans, signups > conversions %, % in first 30 days, % after 30 days Upgrades, plan breakdown Revenue impact Yeah that’s a lot obviously, depends how long you want your dashboard to be but we’re still in the prototype phase here so more is better and you can always remove stuff later or create a second dashboard.The main takeaway of this episode though as we said is that When designing a dashboard, it's important to focus on the decisions you want to make, rather than just the metrics you want to track.So how do we do that?Focus on the decisions you want to makeSomething we want to keep in mind as we narrow the list of important metrics are the decisions we want to be able to make. The goal of our example dashboard is to monitor the lifecycle marketing performance and identify growth opportunities. That means answering questions like: Are we improving sign up engagement and conversions over time?  Are specific segments or campaigns driving better conversion rates than others? Should we double down or kill this experiment/email So ultimately, the focus of the dashboard should be on Signups > activated(published site) rates and Signups > upgrade conversion rates in the first x days and the viewers should be able to see the impact across the funnel over time. So now that you have a better idea of all the metrics you want to start with, one of the next steps you can start thinking about is chart types, how you’d like to ideally display your data.Choosing chart typesScatter plots, bar charts, pie charts, maps, funnels, box plots… There’s a bunch of different chart types and visualizations at your disposal when you're designing your dashboard, but this isn’t where you should start.Dataschool has an awesome guide on picking charts:Choosing the right chart types is an important step in the process of designing a dashboard. The right chart types can help to convey information effectively, and can make the dashboard more engaging and intuitive. However, choosing the wrong chart types can lead to confusion, misinterpretation, or even misinformation.When choosing chart types for a dashboard, it is important to consider the goals and objectives of the dashboard, and the audience for whom it is intended. Different chart types are suitable for different types of data, and for different purposes. For example, scatter plots are useful for showing the relationship between two variables, while bar charts are good for comparing values across categories.It is also important to consider the formatting and layout of the chart types. Different chart types can be formatted in different ways, and the right formatting can help to highlight the most important information, or to draw attention to trends or patterns. For example, using colors, labels, or axes can help to make the chart more readable and interpretable.I'm going to throw fire here that you don't need to design a piece of art. I can also plug powermetrics, since we have the ability to dynamically switch chart types :)How to ensure people actually use your dashboard: ID stakeholder, involve in design process, involve in testing and QA.So getting key stakeholders in the room, asking important questions not just about what metrics are most important, but also what decisions you’re trying to make. Then you can start thinking about chart types and drafting your dashboard. Doing these pieces first will help ensure your dashboard is used often instead of being another tab left unopened. ConclusionBuilding a great team dashboard is like constructing a towering skyscraper. It takes a village of skilled and dedicated workers to lay the foundation, raise the walls, and finish the details. Just as a skyscraper can't stand on its own, a team dashboard needs a diverse and talented team to make it functional, useful, and beautiful.✌️--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created with Midjourney

Universal Analytics is sunsetting in July 2023, and its replacement, Google Analytics 4, isn’t exactly getting a warm reception. For digital marketers, SEOs, analysts, and basically anyone else who got used to GA3 over the past decade, it’s a bitter pill to swallow.Ok, I’ll confess: I’ve been a bit further behind on Google Analytics 4 than I wanted. Like many marketers, I struggle to balance martech innovation against the reality of my day-to-day life. I admit I had been procrastinating on learning GA4, but no more.I’ve spent the last few months going as deep as I can on GA4 and, by extension Google Tag Manager. I’m not going to sit here and tell you that GA4 is Google’s gift to digital marketing – I think it’s still an immature platform.I am going to tell you GA4 is getting a much worse rap that it deserves precisely because so many marketers have been deep in GA3/UA for so long. Changing habits is tough, and GA4 makes it more challenging because of a new interface, not too mention a completely different approach to web analytics. No big deal - you can learn all this in a Sunday afternoon, right?Yeah, that’s going to be tough.Today I’m going to give a procrastinator’s guide to GA4. If you’re expecting me to complain about GA3, this episode isn’t for you. We’ll mourn the loss of GA3, briefly, but then move on to making the most of this situation. I don’t think GA4 is all bad – actually, GA4 is pretty slick and I think if it weren’t for the contrast to its predecessor, many folks would be pretty happy with GA4. – – – Alright JT, it’s great to be back behind the mic. We’re starting off with a fun one here. I’ll admit I’ve been out of touch with top of funnel reporting and analytics for the last couple years so I’m excited to learn about GA4. There’s rightfully been a lot of noise since its release in October 2020… maybe we can start there actually, the Google decision. Google has basically said that they are making the switch from Universal Analytics (UA) to Google Analytics 4 (GA4) in order to provide users with “more advanced tracking for digital marketers” But aside from new features like automated events, cross-device reporting and BQ support, there’s a lot more behind the decision to make the switch.Why is Google making the switch from UA to GA4?Needs attribution:  Lawsuits in EU where UA used as evidence Privacy regulations End of 3rd party cookies, rise of first party cookies Single-page applications Event-based measurement So October 14, 2020: This was the date when Google officially announced GA4 and began rolling it out to users. What dates should marketers be aware about when it comes to the “forced switch from UA?”What are the important dates and why are they importantJuly 1, 2023, data collection stops. 6 months later, you won’t be able to access your dataYou’ve got 6 months to move to GA4 or another web analytics solution or you’ll be flying blind… You need a solution for your historic data (excel, bigquery, or API)Sounds like it’s time to put down that Netflix remote, grab a cup of coffee, and dive into the exciting world of GA4!It seems like such a big hurdle… JT, how can marketers start to learn GA4?How do I learn GA4There’s going to be a few layers to learning GA4. Let’s break it out into 2 roles: Web Developer, implementation Digital marketer or web analyst For web developers or implementers, GA4 can be installed directly on your website by inserting the code directly onto each page. This isn’t new. I think what is new is that GA4 is much more closely tied with Google Tag Manager. It is absolutely the recommended way to install and configure GA4. There’s a whole episode or series about Google Tag Manager we could do, but the short of it is that GTM gives you a huge toolset to do tons of cool stuff: event tracking, sending additional data through dataLayer, and modifying your implementation without having to directly modify your website.If you’re not already using GTM, GA4 should push you to start using it.For digital marketers and analysts, the task is about getting used to the new interface, migrating configuration settings from GA3, and making a habit of pulling reports from GA4. The big hurdle here is matching up the data from both tools – because I’ve never actually seen both tools give the same number.I think this is what people are most unprepared for: the new reporting paradigm and definitions. Things like users have modified definitions, in no small part because GA4 is better at tracking individual users and corrects known errors in GA3. However, whenever a disparity in the numbers arise, much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth ensues…So getting it installed and playing around with new features is one of the first things folks should be doing. Data history and collection is important.These new features are more powerful and are said to help you better understand and optimize your digital marketing efforts… JT, what are some of the new features that excite you the most compared to UA vs GA4?What is different between GA3 & GA4Bounce rate, conversion tracking, user definitions;Event-based approach, more akin to product analytics tools, and, frankly, this is better for modern web (problem: vast majority of sites aren’t on modern tech) User Interface Data collection and real-time data Data retention So gone are the days of needing to manually set up event tracking codes for specific things like we had to do in GTM? No, still more than enough in GTM. Enhanced Measurement gives us some events out of the box that seem to mostly work for some websites. Events are much better in GA4 – can send custom parametersOne thing a lot of folks mention is improved cross-device reporting, have you dived into this? How is Google associating traffic from multiple devices to unique users?I’m more of a Redshift guy than Big Query these days but I do feel like the switch to GA4 is also pushing many users to adopting Big Query right? GA4 includes native support for BigQuery integration, which allows you to connect your GA4 data with other data sources in Google BigQuery.JT what do you like the most about GA4 so far? Is it the Conversion Probability report or the Customer Lifetime Value report? Or just the new UI and design? What does Jon like about GA4?It might seem like putting lipstick on a pig, but I kind of like GA4. Maybe I’m just coping a bit or being obstinately positive, but change is the name of martech. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to switch tools against my will, and it won’t be the last.Everything is a tool, and GA4 is no different. Events are customizable and don’t have to send same parameters/fields as UA. You can send anything which is powerful when looking at custom data. Conversion events are much more accurate (citation) Reports are much more customizable and better looking Machine learning to surface insights Some of the coolest ML insights come in the form of predicting the likelihood that a user will convert on your website or app. This is based on their behavior and other factors. So theoretically, your business can better identify high-potential users and tailor your marketing efforts accordingly.Do you know what this looks like practically? Can you push segments of these users to BQ then Hubspot and send custom emails or better yet, to your product and surface different offerings?So like we said, there are many ways to learn GA4, including online courses, tutorials, and guides. Start reading through the documentation and tutorials provided by GoogleInstall it and play around… what else? Time to panic?How do we prepare for the inevitable? Is it time to panic?Absolutely - it’s the best time to panic. So get it out of your system. No matter what I say or you say, GA3 will be sunset and GA4 will be your default option.There are obviously two parts to this. First is the implementation – if you haven’t set up GA4 then you need to get that set up as soon as possible. Data retention for custom reports maxes out at 14 months, so you’ll want to collect some of that historical data.You’ll want to make sure that GA4 is fully configured to track events and conversions you were tracking previously. This could be an opportunity to clean up events and even send more data. The second is reporting or, probably more accurately, the human side of the equation. The discrepancy in numbers from each system is difficult to articulate, particularly to your management or executive team. The improved accuracy of user and conversion tracking can make for pretty different numbers. Typically, I’ve seen lower numbers of users but higher conversions, which jives with what GA4 is supposed to do.I think there’s some marketing therapy and education that needs to happen for a lot of teams. Explaining GA4 is sort of like I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you. I admit it’s taken a bit for the differences to sink in, and I’m still not sure I can confidently explain them.This is going to be our challenge moving forward – why are these numbers different, and how do I explain this to my executive team?Unfortunately, the messenger is almost always shot first! This is one of the worst feelings ever, using one tool you uncover a big win, maybe it’s a conversion rate lift coming from a specific subset of pages you created or recently optimized.You shout it from all public Slack channels only to find out that someone else using a different tool doesn’t see the same lift at all… and thus ensues the debate… who’s got the accurate data?Conclusion – Teaser of next GA4 episodeAll right, this was a fairly surface level conversation on GA4 – in a future episode, however, we’re going to get a lot deeper into GA4, the cool shit. I like a lot of these features, and rather than mourning UA, I’m going to look forward.In conclusion, GA4 is here and there’s nothing you can do to hold onto UA. Changing habits is tough, and GA4 makes it more challenging because of a new interface, not to mention a completely different approach to web analytics. You should move on to making the most of this situation and start playing around with it… maybe you’ll agree with JT and find that GA4 is pretty slick and I think if it weren’t for the contrast to

Season 1 featured our first 50 episodes, 20 of which were guest episodes. In today’s episode we’re going to recap our key takeaways from each guest episode in season 1.Our first guest episode featured Lauren Sanborn, Director of RevOps at CallRail. She recently moved over to DataRobot, an AI cloud platform for Data Scientists.  Aside from leaving us with several marketing and sales alignment tips, my favorite takeaway from Lauren was to not be so hard on yourself if you don’t know what you don’t want to do (for work). Her advice was to get out there and try different things so you can start to mark off what you don’t like. Eventually you’ll find something that you love.”Our next guest in episode 07 featured one of our most senior and perhaps most accomplished guest, Brian Leonard, former co-founder of TaskRabbit and now CEO of Grouparoo (recently acquired by Airbyte).Brian went pretty deep on the relationship with marketing and engineering and my favorite takeaway was that marketers and engineers shouldn’t think of themselves as doing completely different things inside a company. At the end of the day, both groups are there to move the needle on the business. So the best way to think of it is to come together to power the right stack.Instead of pitching to product, marketing needs this, pitch it as, the company needs this and this is how it will benefit everyone. For example, marketing attribution isn’t a marketing or a marketing ops thing. It’s a company thing.Next up was our boy Nick Donaldson in episode 10, fresh off a new consulting gig at Perkuto. Another marketer who’s moved on to another company, he’s now running Marketing Operations at Knak. Nick is wise beyond his years and my favorite takeaway from our chat with him was that the number 1 skill to succeed in marketing ops is curiosity. Early in your career Google and twitter are your best friends. There’s so many smart people that have been in your shoes and are nice enough to share those insights. Find them. Read them. Learn from them.So 10 episodes in and we already had a RevOps Director, a CEO and founder and a consultant. We also had a Professor. In episode 11 we were joined by friend of the show Jonathan Simon.This might have been controversial amongst his peers at the University but we’re happy to report he’s still in his current gig (lol). My favorite takeaway from our chat with Jonathan is that you don’t need a degree to have a successful and happy career in marketing anymore. More than anything, marketers need to be adaptable to changing tech and strive to be lifelong learners. He talked a lot about side hustles and starting something, in his course he actually gets all his students to start a blog and build something during their time there.Episode 17 featured Ottawa native Julie Beynon who leads analytics at Clearbit. Things got technical pretty fast but I think Julie did an awesome job introducing data warehousing and making it seem a lot less intimidating.My favorite takeaway was when she explained that a DWH doesn’t have row limits and isn’t limited by your laptop’s CPU. She loves a Google sheet as much as any data driven marketer, but at some point, startups need to upgrade from that clunkiness to a data warehouse solution.It’s been fun seeing the martech landscape shift from; APIs for everything and we integrate with all your tools to – we build on top of your data warehouse or we connect natively to Big Query.Keeping to the data theme, we had Steffen Heddebrandt in episode 19. Still almost a year later he’s trashing Google Analytics on LinkedIn (lol). He’s the co-founder of Dreamdata, an attribution solution for B2B startups and SMBs.Attribution still gets a bad rep, we heard Corey trash it in season 2, but Steffen has solved big pieces of this puzzle at his startup. My favorite takeaway from our convo was when he declared that when it comes to revenue attribution, GA is basically close to useless for B2B companies. Multi touch attribution software does sound like magic when you’ve tried to orchestrate it yourself, but give Dreamdata a spin if you’re still skeptical about it.Episode 25 featured Naomi Liu, Director of Global Marketing Ops at EFI. Naomi spends some of her time mentoring future marketing ops leaders and was hiring for an entry level marketer on her team at the time so we centered our conversation around how to ace your first marketing job.My favorite takeaway was when Naomi said that new marketers should be asking lots of questions. Be that annoying kid in the back seat asking all of the questions.Episode 27 featured friend of the show and local Ottawa social media maven Erin Blaskie. She recently made the switch from leading marketing at Fellow to go back to freelancing as a fractional CMO.My favorite takeaway was when we asked her how marketers should choose between the freelance route and working in house. She thinks everyone should try both. Throw out everyone else’s definition of success and make your own by trying different things. Big company, startup, agency, freelance, give them all a shot.In episode 37, we had another manager who was hiring on her team. Shannon McCluskey leads marketing ops at Clio and my favorite takeaway was when she described the role of marketing ops.We are not order takers, we’re active consultants designing our own destiny. Sometimes we need to evaluate solutions our partners haven’t thought of. We don’t always say yes to every request we’re given.Episode 39 featured co founder and CEO of Kank Peirce Ujainwalla. A well known face in the martech scene, we asked him to weigh in on the html vs text debate for emails.He said it’s important to do a mix of both. Text emails have that personal feel, but HTML is still super important for all your visual users and telling your brand story.Episode 41 featured another local Ottawa and social media expert and now head of marketing at Fellow – Manuela Barcenas. She’s also a productivity nut and my favorite takeaway was when she said that her biggest productivity superpower is knowing what to work on when you open your laptop in the morning. Time blocking and planning your week ahead of time by scheduling tasks and deep focus blocks.In episode 44, friend of the show Roxanne Pepin from Rewind chatted with us about her role in Technology operations. Like Shannon she had hot thoughts about the role of marketing and tech ops.She said that while everything is doable, it doesn’t mean you should do it. Question the importance of your requests. Let them stew for a couple of days just to determine if it’s really as important now as it was two days ago.Another Ottawa local favorite, episode 46 featured Danica Bateman who was marketing automation manager at Net2phone at the time and has recently joined Unbabel, a translation service company.She said marketing automation was the perfect bridge between marketing and sales. Get customer insights from your sales team and put that into your funnel to build an automation engine around customer empathy. Finally, episode 47 featured our last guest interview, Vladlena Mitskaniouk who heads up Marketing at Snyk. She sells a complicated product for developers but that doesn’t scare her from learning her industry and the product.We asked her what marketers should start by doing when they join a new company. She said that if you don’t know your product you won’t be able to market it. Learn your product, it’s the most important thing to do first. Then learn the people you work with and learn your customers.Be sure to catch season 2 guest episodes featuring big names in marketing including Corey Haines, Samar Owais, Mike King, Adriana Gil Miner, Dave Rigotti, and many more!✌️--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

Hey folks, today we’re joined by Ramli John, one of my favorite marketers and someone I’ve admired and followed on Twitter for many years. Ramli got his start in marketing at PepsiCo as a Marketing Systems Analyst where he stayed for 4 years. After a co-founding stint Ramli moved to Toronto where started his freelancing career as a SaaS growth consultant. Along the way he also worked at a few different companies including SkyVerge which exited to GoDaddy. He also spent a few years teaching as a Marketing Instructor at big name spots like RED Academy, Centennial College and CXL Institute. He started what’s widely known as one of the top marketing podcasts on the planet, Growth Marketing Today and he’s one of the inspirations of our podcast here. He went on to join Product-Led - The leading community for PLG Pros founded by Wes Bush the famous author of Product-Led Growth. During his time there Ramli wrote his own book with Wes. It hit shelves last year: Product-Led Onboarding. I’ve read it twice and it’s been a huge career growth lever for me. Now he’s landed in what seems to be the perfect role, Director of Content at one of the top no-code onboarding tools in Appcues. Damn what a resume, what a journey, Ramli it’s an honor to have you. Questions and topics Ramli there’s a bunch of jumping off points here, I want to get into the podcast, the book and also the new gig but I’d love to start with an early career question. Early career at Pepsi and startupYou did a 180 when you went from a massive 100k + enterprise at Pepsi to then co-founding a startup. How wild was the transition and what advice would you have for listeners in big companies thinking of starting something one day? Podcast growthYou did Growth Marketing today for 4 years, I remember you posting once about how long it took you before you finally started to gain big traction. What advice do you have for people creating content with a small audience, sometimes feeling like they are speaking into the void. Teacher questionRamli, you spent a few years teaching, first at RED academy, a tech and design school, then at CXL Institute in their Demand Gen mini degree and also at Centennial College teaching a 14-week course on web analytics. What gave you the itch to spend 3 years teaching and maybe talk about the process of designing a course from scratch and all the work involved there. On writing your first bookTalk to us about writing your first book and the difference between the process of writing a course vs a book. Obviously Wes was probably a big inspiration but was this something you’ve always wanted to do and will there be more books in the future? PQL vs. PAIListeners have probably heard of PQLs by now, Product Qualified Leads or criterias that tell you someone has experienced your product or gotten some mileage in it. In your book, Product-Led Onboarding, you talk a lot about PAI, Product Adoption Indicators. Can you unpack the difference between both of those for listeners? Key onboarding milestonesMany people will dumb down onboarding to just getting users to the ‘aha moment’ like it’s something that magically unlocks onboarding challenges. You actually break down the nuance here and coin 3 different moments of value: Perception, Experience and Adoption. Can you walk us through a practical example of this? Conversational bumpersIn your book, one of my favorite analogies is your bowling analogy and how you compare onboarding emails and SMS messages as conversational bumpers to help users get their first strike. Unpack this for our listeners. Appcues, 6 months inYou’re about half a year into Appcues leading the content team, teaching SaaS teams about onboarding and product adoption. When I saw you announce that I was like damn, that’s the ultimate fit, Ramli gets to go back to SaaS and he gets to keep pumping out content about onboarding. I’d love to hear how the journey has been so far but maybe start by telling us how this opportunity came about. Happiness questionRamli, you’ve got a ton of stuff going on, you’re a podcaster, an author, a frequent speaker, a soon to be dad and you’re leading a content team at one of the coolest SaaS in the world. One question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy? --- Ramli’s links Twitter: https://twitter.com/ramlijohn  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/ LinkedIn posts: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/recent-activity/shares/  Product-Led Onboarding book: https://productled.com/book/onboarding/  Appcues: https://www.appcues.com/  Growth Marketing Today: https://growthtoday.fm/  ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

What’s up everyone, today we’re diving into a fascinating conversation with Nick deWilde who’s leading an exciting web3 project. Nick’s an MBA graduate of Stanford University and a self described generalist who’s spent the majority of his career working with early stage startups  He was the Managing Partner at Tradecraft, an education program that helped trained people for roles at fast growing startups This led him to lead product marketing at Guild, a company helping frontline workers earn debt-free degrees and credentials Shortly after having a baby, Nick then made the wild decision to leave his full time job and strap on a jetpack (fueled by early crypto investments) and go independent  He worked part time at a venture firm incubating early business ideas alongside consulting for a few startups He writes an awesome career strategy newsletter called Junglegym and launched a talent collective He also co-founded Invisible College, a school owned by the students that helps people learn, build and invest in web3. Nick, thanks so much for your time, really pumped to chat.Questions and topicsThere’s so many things I’d love to unpack today. I've become a huge fan of your newsletter and your work around career strategies, but I had to prioritize some of the topics today given the time we have together. I want to get into some web3 stuff as well but maybe we can start off by taking us back to 2021 when you were on paternity leave. Paternity leave makes you do wild thingsNick you wrote about stepping off a rocketship and strapping on a jetpack into web3. You did this 3 months after having a baby. Talk to us about this decision and what impact having your first child had on making a big career change.Nick’s Notes: Having a baby does funny things to your head. It limits the number of hours you can focus on work and reminds you that your time on earth is finite. The net result was both a decrease and increase in my career ambition. I no longer wanted to do things to impress a boss to move up at a company, but at the same time, I wanted to take a swing at something exciting. That led me to independence and stating Invisible College Zone of geniusOne of your guiding principles when you took the leap and went independent was to work in your zone of genius. For you that meant, creative ideation, crafting + executing a strategy and collaborating with people you admire.Walk us through this concept and how others might determine what their zone of genius might be?Nick’s Notes: Zone of Genius is a concept I got from a book called the 15 commitments of conscious leadership. Living in your zone of genius means that instead of choosing to spend your time living in your zone of incompetence, or compentence or even excellence, you are spending your hours working on things that you are truly great at and love doing. To find your zone of genius think about where you feel flow state, think about the skills you get compliments on, think about the hours of the day where you create the most value for others.  When it’s time to leave your jobIn episode 48 last season we talked about when to quit your job. Being successful and happy in martech requires having a true north for your career. Sometimes, that means recognizing that your current workplace isn’t helping you advance your career.You built a chart that can tell someone when it’s time to leave their job. I’d love it if you could break that down for our listeners.Nick’s Notes: So imagine plotting all your skills on a 2x2 chart. On the top are all the things you like doing, on the bottom are all the things you don’t like doing. On the right is all the stuff you’re bad at. On the left is all the stuff you’re good at. Basically you want most of your work activities to be in the top left box – stuff you’re good at and like doing. These are things that are valuable for you and your employer. This should be at least 60% of your job.  In the bottom right box is all the things you’re bad at and don’t like. This should be 0% of your job because neither you or your employer are benefitting.  You’ll probably have some things that you’re good at but don’t like – these are skills you’re no longer enjoying learning. It’s basically taking one for the team. To make up for that, you should also get the opportunity to try out stuff that you aren’t good at but like doing. I think a good rule of thumb is 60% stuff you’re good at and like, 20% stuff you’re bad at and like and 20% stuff you’re good at and don’t like. If that gets drastically out of ballance you’re very likely to want to leave your job. The Great Online Game“We now live in a world in which, by typing things on your keyboard, or saying things into a microphone, you can marshall resources, support, and opportunities.” You reference this article written by Packy McCormick (the author of Not boring newsletter) many times in your work. Many of the folks I follow in web3 reference it as well. Talk to us about how this article lit a fire in you.Nick’s Notes: The Great Online Game, as Packy describes it, offers something of an alternative to traditional employment. Rather than relying on a single employer for money, relationships, and professional development opportunities, ambitious knowledge workers can get their needs filled by working for the internet. Unlike most jobs where your trajectory is constrained by the operating system of a single employer, working for the internet offers the promise of uncapped upside.  By publishing this newsletter I had started been playing the online game. This newsletter has served as a magnet for new friends, speaking gigs, and even investment opportunities. For the next phase of my career, I decided that I wanted to get serious about playing. Every marketer should get the opp to launch a web3 projectLast year you tweeted that your hope was for every web2 marketer to get the opportunity to launch a web3 project. Talk a bit more about that, why is launching a web3 project vs web2 such a rush?https://twitter.com/nick_dewilde/status/1473064169557553152?s=20 For marketers who might not have the current bandwidth to launch something of their own right now, what’s a smaller commitment – first step that they could take?Nick’s Notes:In traditional marketing, you need to do a lot of pushing to get your messages in front of customers. One of the really fun things about launching Invisible College was how much marketing the community did on our behalf. Rather than trying to come up with everything ourselves, we basically just needed to steer the community in the right direction and amplify their efforts. Invisible CollegeTalk to us about Invisible college and the decentraliens, what’s the founding story and what are you guys building?Nick’s Notes: In web2, most people start out as builders and only start investing if they are fortunate enough to hit the accreditation threshold. In web3 that script is flipped. Just by using a web3 product, you become an investor. Those who experience the magic of ownership, often get so excited that they can’t help but start building something. Invisible College is a school that facilitates this journey by helping people learn, invest and build in web3. Imagine being an early owner of a university like Harvard or Stanford. Each new course would not only provide new learning opportunities but it would also increase the value of your stake in the school. If at any point the school stopped serving your needs (or started hitting you up for donations) you could sell your stake and reap the value. That’s what we’re building at Invisible College. Unlike other NFT projects where price depends solely on hype, our Decentraliens collection will be bolstered by the value of all the courses, events, content, and community that the NFT unlocks. To the web3 skeptics I’m sure you’ve encountered plenty of them in your journey, the web3 skeptics. The folks who say crypto is just a huge pyramid scheme. The articles that point to NFT sales flatlining. The doomsday threads that talk about a tech bubble that’s about to burst. I’d love to get your thoughts here. If you’re stuck with one of these people in an elevator, what would you say to change their minds?Nick’s Notes:Web3 has gotten a lot of hype these past few years, which is why it's often a letdown when people get their hands on a crypto product for the first time: Payments are slower and more expensive than Venmo The customer service is much worse than what you'd get at a bank Applications have clunky and confusing user interfaces It's fair to question, whether the space is simply overhyped. But it's helpful to remember that this is a pattern that often plays out when new platforms emerge.Take the smartphone. iPhones now seem incredible but when they first came out they felt like PCs with smaller screens. While they may still be worse for making spreadsheets, they also have a bunch of other features like a camera and a built-in GPS that allows developers to create all sorts of new applications like Uber and Instagram couldn't work on a PC.Web3 has a lot of similarities. In many ways, web3 products are clunkier than what they’re replacing. But, crypto does have one feature that was completely absent in web2: trustlessness. That means two parties can transact without needing to trust a middle man. Payments can be made without banks Contracts can be enforced without lawyers Assets can be transfered without escrow services All of these middlemen who were collecting fees are no longer needed. That means users can: Earn a higher yield on their savings because there’s no bank that needs to take profits Send money anywhere in the world without paying to remittance providers like Western Union. Collect royalties whenever art they’ve created changes hands without needing enforcement from a lawyer There are enough smart people who are excited about this vision and building in the space that we will eventually get some pretty amazing and world-shifting applications out of it, even if we have to put up with some scams and rug pulls along the way.Happiness questionNick, you’ve got a ton of stuff going on, you’re a father, you run a few newsletters and you’re buildi

Today on the show we have a veteran of the SaaS marketing industry, we’re joined by Kamil Rextin. After moving from Islamabad, he worked in Karachi for 2 years at P&G and completed an MBA at Waterloo University. He got his start wearing many different hats like Growth, Demand Gen and Ops at early/mid stage SaaS companies in Montreal and Toronto including Breather, Pressly, Uberflip and CrowdRiff. In 2018, he took the entrepreneurial plunge and went out on his own and started an agency called 42Agency. 4 years later, Kamil’s agency counts more than 5+ full time team members providing demand gen, marketing ops and ABM services. He’s worked with top brands like ProfitWell, Hubdoc, Sproutsocial, Knak and many more scaling B2B saaS companies. Kamil’s a father, a founder, a podcaster, a community moderator, the author of the 42/ newsletter, a neurodivergent advocate… but most of his time is shamelessly spent on memes and hot takes on Twitter.  Kamil – we’re pumped to chat with you today, thanks for taking the time. Questions and topics Kamil, I’ve dived into your twitter feed over the past year and there’s a ton of hot takes that we can dive into that I’d love longer than 280 character take on. Recently you did an AMA on the B2B marketing community on Twitter, I pegged you with a bunch of questions and wanted to let you expand on some of those – maybe we can start there. Running an agency vs in-house For guests that have gone the in-house and agency route, I love asking the pros and cons of both of them. You’re even more fascinating because not only did you do agency… you founded an agency from scratch and have been running it for more than 4 years now. What’s the biggest upside/downside of running an agency vs being an in-house marketer?  What are some of your early learnings from starting your own agency? Future-proofed marketing skills Whether they end up in-house or at an agency, if you were mentoring a fresh marketing grad, you said that you would recommend them to specialize in the technical side of marketing. Why do you think the quantitative side of marketing is where a lot of opportunity is? Technical marketing Let’s dive into that a bit more, I think people generously add technical marketing to their skillsets. What does it mean to you? Is it anything that has to do with reporting and integrations or using martech or is it more technical than that? Like how to manipulate data and build basic models or building a Data Warehouse? Analytics and Tracking in 2022 From a quantitative marketing standpoint, the tracking analytics world is weird in 2022. The industry is moving away from session based tracking and with Apple and others making a big business out of privacy and with click based tracking only getting harder with cross browser tracking, what should marketers be relying on in 2022 and beyond? Is it incremental testing? Is it statistical models or ML? Martech buyer’s guide – Wirecutter for SaaS I actually discovered you 4 years ago when I stumbled upon some of your early martech buyer’s guide work. You were building the wirecutter for SaaS, I think the first one you did was on CMS, can’t remember how favoroubly you talked about WP (lol) but what happened to this project, are you going to pick it back up one day? https://twitter.com/kamilrextin/status/1338536972608999425  Dark social Some influencers have denigrated tracking and attribution to the point where many recommend just ignoring it and trusting your gut. One of the main culprits of this is the rise of dark social. WTF is dark social, is it just a buzzword for offline referrals like in group chats or in Slack threads and forums, and do you buy into all of this hype? How much do you hate this term? SaaS companies should be a media company narrative Sticking to some of your hot twitter takes here, there’s a few more I’m excited to dive in with you. One of them is this idea that many influencers proliferate that SaaS companies should be a media company narrative. Why do you think this is bullshit? https://twitter.com/kamilrextin/status/1362544724813430786  Personal brands Another of my favorite twitter takes is your disdain for personal branding. A quick look at LinkedIn and Twitter reveals that building a personal brand has been dry humped to death. Every influencer is only an expert at self promotion. There’s a total lack of receipts and actual experience. It’s all about 24/7 self aggrandizement. Twitter screenshots on LinkedIn and nothing but dolphin claps and clicks. How do you really feel about building a personal brand? -- Twitter https://twitter.com/kamilrextin  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kamilrextin/recent-activity/shares/   https://www.fourtytwo.agency/   https://www.42slash.com/  ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

Our guest today is Emma Paajanen (Payanen). She’s currently based in Boston but was born and raised in a small town in Finland.   She got her start in marketing at a Helsinki-based agency as a Comms specialist before moving to big tech at a cyber security company called F-Secure and also spending a year in internal comms at Nokia. Emma also had a freelancing stint while she was on parental leave from F-Secure where she later went on to lead Marketing Operations. Today she’s inventing new and powerful ways to engage with customers as VP of Marketing at Aiven, an open source data startup turned Unicorn, headquartered in Helsinki with hubs all over the world like Berlin, Boston, Paris, Toronto, some employees even work in a mountainside van.   Emma thanks for your time, we’re excited to chat with you today! Topics and questions Boomerang-ing You worked at Ellun Kanat in 2010 then went to F-Secure for 2.5 years but you decided to go back to Ellun Kanat in 2014. After a tour of duty at Nokia, you also decided to go back to F-Secure in 2016. You and Jon have this in common – Talk to us about your experience being a boomerang, working at a company, leaving and gaining experience elsewhere, and going back to that company. You did that twice. Your time at F-Secure Corp You spent over 3 years at F-Secure, working in 4 different roles, from Senior Marketing Manager of cyber security consulting to B2B Digital and content to then becoming Marketing Director and finally Marketing Operations Director. Looking back, what were some of the things you think that helped you move up from manager to Director? Walk us through your role as Director of MOPs at an almost 2k employee software company? Marketing exec role So now you’re VP of marketing at Aiven. You’re on the exec team. For the listeners who think they want to be an exec one day, talk to us about the difference of the day to day at Aiven vs earlier roles at F-Secure? Growing from series B You joined Aiven in April 2020, a few months after their series B round. How big was the marketing team when you joined and how big is the team today? Startup turned $2 billion company With their latest round of funding, Aiven is valued at 2+ billion. What do you think makes up the DNA of a great marketing leader at a Billion dollar company vs an up-and-coming startup. Marketing a technical product to a technical audience Aiven offers technologies as managed services, that offering includes services and sometimes technical support is an add-on. Talk to us about marketing a technical product and service to a technical audience.  Open source As I understand it, Aiven helps companies leverage open source data technologies on a public cloud platform. Being at WP, Open-source is close to my heart. Talk to us about the transformative period that the open-source community is currently experiencing. (Many IT vendors that originated as open-source developers are starting to place restrictions on their own software licenses—decisions that might be shortsighted and driven by profits.) Content marketing is simply marketingA few years ago, you said that in 10 yrs, #contentmarketing will just be #marketing. Walk us through what you mean by that and do you think that content marketing is at the core of a marketing strategy? Going beyond the brandEmma, you’ve said that you’re passionate about going beyond the brand. What is brand marketing to you and what does it mean to go beyond branding? The importance of marketing experience and values over just the brand name. Happiness questionYou’re a working mom, you’re an executive at a Billon+ valued company leading a big team with big goals. One question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy?-- Emma Paajanen, VP of Marketing at Aiven   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmapaajanen/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/emmapaaj  ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

What’s up everyone – today on the show we’re joined by exceptional martech mastermind: Dave Rigotti.  He’s the co-founder & CEO of Inflection.io, a marketing technology startup focused on helping companies with product-led growth. Before building his own company, Dave has had a fascinating career in marketing.  He got his start at Microsoft working on the Bing marketing team just as the search engine was launched.  He quickly discovered his love for growth and B2B marketing. Hen then spent half a decade at Bizible, a marketing attribution platform where he worked his way up to VP of Marketing – and was part of the successful exit to Marketo He spent a year at Marketo running ABM and demand gen before they were famously acquired by Adobe At Adobe, Dave was Director of Account Based Marketing focused on Marketo and Magento products Last year, while working on Inflection, he also launched the ProductLed.Marketing community which has more than 700 members and is continuing to grow. Dave, we’re excited to have you on the show – thanks for taking the time.  Questions we asked Dave: What is Product-Led Marketing or Product-Led Growth? What’s the substance of PLG?  What’s the difference between PLG and customer led growth? How is PLG different from all the buzzwords that hit marketing over the years? People in tech love to find new ways of avoiding calling marketing marketing. Growth hacking, conversational marketing, community led growth and now product led growth… What do you say to all the folks who claim this is just another buzzword that will fade? How is PLG different from freemium and why does this instigate such brutal Twitter wars? Traditional: generate leads and serve sales. PLG: using your product as part of your GTM. More customer centric. Jon isn’t active on social but I’ve witnessed my fair share of PLG debates on twitter. What do you say to folks who claim PLG has been around for decades (appcues, mailchimp) and that it’s simply a repackaging of freemium and free trial models… that its the old marketing playbook for the SMB segment?   Where does a PLG model make sense? Can this be done with enterprise software that requires integration and onboarding support? How do you shift to a PLG strategy when you’re selling a B2B to enterprise and you require 1-2 weeks of integration and setup before end users can get a glimpse of the product in action. Do you think some B2B buyers prefer the sales led model? Sometimes I don’t always have 14-30 days to pork around in a product and figure out on my own if this will meet my company needs… sometimes I need someone to show me around and tell me how itll solve my problems We can skip the MQL vs PQL debate, but how do you define a PQL when your product is constantly changing? Product usage data is the holy grail of data for PLG marketers.  How do you see teams forming their marketing strategy around product usage, activation, and engagement? How is PLG a whole new game?You wrote an awesome piece for OpenView Partners that PLG is a whole new game for marketers. Can you walk us through what this new game looks like?  What do you say when you hear the phrase PLG is just a product that sells itself?  What are marketers in PLG companies doing differently to accelerate growth and revenue?  How will PLG influence marketing technology over the next 10 years? What are your big predictions? Shifting gears, Dave, you've worked at some of the most recognizable marketing technology companies on the planet. Not only have you held senior roles in those companies, but you’ve been on the inside of two major acquisitions. Give us a sense of your career story and how you ended up as a co-founder and CEO in this space? What differences do you see working at enterprises versus running a startup? What lessons do you apply to your own startup, and what things do you try to do differently? Dave, you’re a super busy guy. You’re a dad, a husband, a startup founder, and community leader – one question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy? -- Dave Rigotti Twitter - LinkedIn Product-led marketing community Inflection.io ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

What’s up folks, today on the show we are joined by Adriana Gil Miner. Born and raised in Venezuela, she’s a 20+ year marketing exec who got her start as a data analyst and went on to work at American Express.  She then worked with some of the top brands in the world after moving into PR and digital strategy at Weber Shandwick, an A-list agency according to Ad-age Adriana then ended up going through a wild growth ride leading Brand marketing at Tableau– a well known analytics platform.  Today, she’s CMO at Iterable, one of the top customer-led marketing automation platforms on the planet. Adriana, it’s a pleasure to be chatting today, thanks so much for your time. In-house marketing vs agencyYou’ve had a fascinating career bouncing from agency to in-house roles.  Agency for 2 years In-house for 5 years at Amex Freelance for 2 years Back to agency for 5 years at two different firms But along the way you got the in-house itch again and joined Tableau where you ran Brand marketing for 6.5 years.  And you’ve been in-house ever since, getting the CMO gig at Qumulo and now Iterable.  Talk to us about what you loved and hated most about in-house vs agency and why you ultimately settled on in-house.Follow-up: At what point in your journey did you decide you wanted to be a CMO? Was there ever a point where you considered staying IC and focusing on data vs leadership and people management? How ‘hands-on’ do marketing leaders need to be in the product they sell?Jon and I are no strangers to the world of BI having both spent parts of our career at an SMB focused dashboard tool in Klipfolio. As the SVP of Brand Marketing at Tableau, how close were you to the product and how skilled would you say you had to be in data analysis? CMO of 2030 -- what should they be working on today?  Storytelling, data and technologyYou’ve said in several places that you love bringing together the art of storytelling, technology, and marketing. Talk about some of your most memorable breakthrough campaigns that exemplify this idea bridging story, tech and marketing.  The power of storytellingLet’s dive a bit deeper into that. Storytelling is one of the most powerful ways for humans to learn. The best content and brand marketers know this and use it to persuade the rational and the emotional brain. How can marketers get better at storytelling? How can we make stories more relatable – practically, how can stories be more real, vulnerable when you’re selling a B2B tech product? Spotting up and coming marketing superstarsYou’ve written about having a lot of pride in discovering and nurturing up-and-coming marketer rockstars. Walk us through your approach for discovering some of these future rockstars and what are some of the early signs and qualities you look for. Customer advocacy and community marketingSomething that was a big part of your time at Tableau was prioritizing community marketing. Walk us through some of the benefits that this can have on brand growth and customer advocacy opportunities. The relationship between how we use marketing technology and community? Why is community such an integral part of successful B2B products?  Branding gets a bad rep“I don’t believe in brand marketing. If you build a good product and people love it, they will share it.” I’ve heard too many technical CEOs say this. What do you say to a business leader that doesn’t believe in brand marketing and how would you respond to that if – as CMO – your CEO walked in a room and told you that? Follow-up do you think there’s anything marketers can do to change a founders mind if they don’t believe in branding? Do you think founders and CEOs need to create the brand so that marketers can drive the brand? Branding vs positioning vs GMT vs demand genMarketers get a bad rep for all the buzzwords we throw around but don’t all agree on what we mean when we say them: Branding Positioning Go to market Demand generation For professionals who are supposed to be good at communication, we don’t do a good job at making ourselves understood. Walk us through your definitions and how we might better align with how we use them? Future of marketingThere was a viral tweet on the future of marketing last week that I thought was interesting and would love your take on. This is from George Mack, “Don't try to create great content. Instead, try to create Red Pills (dramatically transformed perspectives) that groups are thinking about but nobody is talking about.” How can marketers create more Red Pills? Being in the marketing automation space for a bit now, what do you think are some of these perspectives that need to be transformed? LatinX women in techYou’ve written bravely and powerfully about your experience as a Latina immigrant and shared your thoughts on the Caucasian male narrative that dominates much of the world. Talk about your change in mindset when it comes to the importance and power of checking that box despite not always feeling like you fit the stereotype people often have. Time management /staying happyOne question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy? --Adriana's Twitter: https://twitter.com/agilminer  Adriana’s LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agilminer/  ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

What’s up everyone, on the show today we have one of the planet’s leading search engine marketers. We’re joined by Mike King. He’s the founder and CEO of iPullRank, an awarding-winning SEO agency.  In 2020 he was named Search Marketer of the Year by Search Engine Land, and has been a Global Associate for Moz for more than 10 years. He’s been on the cutting edge of technical SEO his entire career, and he’s currently working on an upcoming book, the science of SEO: Decoding Search Engine Algorithms. He’s a confident introvert and proud Philly native, but these days he pulls rank in a cabana in South Beach, wearing Nike Air Max 1s, and listening to Snoh Aalegra. Mike’s also a Dad, a freestyle rapper, and a highly-engaging keynote speaker.  Mike, it’s great to have you on the show – thanks so much for your time. Career path to starting your own agency You got your start as a webmaster working for Microsoft in 1996. Since then, you have worked in-house in numerous different SEO roles.  Eventually, however, you founded iPullRank, an award winning agency. What prompted you to start your own agency?  You started iPullRank 8 years ago, today your team is 15+ full time people. You’ve said that you love your team, but not in the “we’re a family” kind of way but rather in the "I respect these people and I want us all to win together" way. Talk to us about the kind of agency you built and what sets you apart? The art of an SEO audit I remember a few years ago when we worked with you and you and your team presented us with what I can only call an epic SEO audit. One thing that impressed me the most was that everything you outlined was practical and had clear implementation. Audits get a bit of a bad wrap. I’ve seen a few reports passed off as SEO audits which are effectively S.E.M.Rush or Ahrefs audits with a logo replacement. What should all SEOs be thinking about when they start a client audit? What’s the secret sauce of a great SEO audit. SEO is the testing we did along the way A theme in your approach to SEO is testing rather than relying on the data provided by Google or other tools. Everyone is familiar with A/B testing things like landing pages and subject lines. What does testing in the SEO context look like? Can you give our listeners a primer? To code or not to code? I’ve been learning to code for a few years now. While I haven’t found too many practical applications to coding in my day job, I’ve personally found it fun to learn and gratifying to speak more at eye-level with devs You have a strong background in coding. Do you think it’s an important or even an essential skill for modern marketers? What advice do you have for folks thinking about learning to code?  The end of Universal AnalyticsThe one constant in SEO land is change. Though the end of Universal Analytics seems to be hitting everyone a bit different. What’s your take on this shift to Google Analytics 4? How are people preparing? Are people prepared? Future-proofing for SEO Algorithm changes and updates are effectively part of the SEOs daily regimen. The only constant is change.  How do you future-proof your website/brand against future updates? Is there a technology solution such as adopting modern frameworks like React and Gatsby with a headless CMS or is it by acquiring a certain set of skills as a contributor to be proactive (when possible) and reactive (when needed)?  Top SEOs of 2032  In 2020 you were named Search Marketer of the Year by Search Engine Land. First, congrats on the accomplishment! Second, I’d like to get your perspective on the future of SEO and what it’ll take to be named Search Marketer of the Year in 2030? What skills will the top SEOs have in 10 years? If you were starting today, where would you invest in yourself? Technical SEO & Modern Digital Marketing In 2016 you wrote a piece for the Moz blog on the technical SEO renaissance. You cover a lot of ground in that piece, but reading it now, it holds up incredibly well. Some of what you wrote verges on the prophetic, particularly when you think about Core Web Vitals and the importance of page speed and user experience. Modern SEO feels remarkably similar to developing a SaaS application – web teams need to focus on UX, performance, utility and, of course, content. If you were to write that piece today, what would your call to action be?  Science of SEO Book You’ve got a book coming out next year titled the “The Science of SEO: Decoding Search Engine Algorithms” What inspired you to write this book? What do you hope SEOs will get out of this book? Happiness, balance, success The first line in your Twitter bio is dedicated to your daughters and you’re a firm believer in family over everything. You run a multi million dollar digital marketing agency, work with some of the top brands on the planet, regularly speak at conferences, you’re writing a book, and rapping on the side… How do you find balance in your life? What does happiness and success look like to Mike King?  ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB

What’s up folks, today on the show we are joined by India Waters Based in Atlanta Georgia, she’s a community management expert with a deep appreciation for startups.  She got her start running community at Memoir, a NY-based startup that built a photo sharing app.  The startup eventually pivoted to focus on photo sharing for the wedding industry and was later acquired by The Knot – one of the biggest wedding brands.  India currently leads growth and technology partnerships at MessageGears, a customer marketing platform for enterprise customers.  India thanks for taking some time to chat with us today! Early startup daysWalk us through some of the early days at Memoir, I read that you got 2 rounds of funding which included prominent investors.  You spent 4.5 years there and I’m sure things changed quickly and often. The importance of trying new thingsBefore landing at Memoir – You graduated from UGA in the middle of a recession with not very many jobs available. Walk us through some of the earliest jobs you did and what advice you’d have for folks in similar positions today. Constantly changing strategies in startupsSo that eventually brought to startup land – Phil and I are no strangers to working for startups and needing to consider pivots and changing strategies. What lessons do you have when it comes to adapting to frequent strategy changes? Target customers You first started working at Memoir which was an app for consumers and was probably hard to segment as it could be used by anyone. Then the company (Veri) refocused to pivot the app for the wedding industry which led to the acquisition. Now you’re at a tech company selling marketing software to marketers. Talk about how different it is to sell a product with product market fit or a more focused target customer? Community-led growthSome of your earliest focus areas were community growth. What did community-led growth look like 10 years ago vs today? Working up to different roles at a bigger companyYou’ve been at MessageGears now for a little over 4 years and you’ve held 4 different roles there. Starting with Market research analyst and biz dev to Growth manager, to senior growth manager and now Associate Director of Tech partnerships. Oftentimes folks will leave a company to get a promotion but your the perfect example of working up at the same company. Talk us through some of the ways you were able to get promoted and yeah walk us through that journey a bit. MessageGears – on premise vs SaaSLet’s talk about the product for a bit. You’re one of the 300+ names that show up on G2’s grid of marketing automation software but you describe yourselves differently.  ‘the first and only customer marketing platform that connects directly to our customer’s enterprise data warehouse.’ Talk us through that, the first and only platform that connects directly to your DW On premise software vs SaaS and cloud based tools Connecting and using DW data vs (API) operating on a copy of your data MessageGears vs Pardot and MarketoI noticed in one of your job openings that MessageGears actually uses Pardot to send marketing campaign emails? Work with Demand Generation team to execute lead generation, nurture and conversion programs in Pardot. What’s the difference between Mg and Pardot and why doesn’t MG use MG? Baby podcastYou started a new podcast with a colleague from MessageGears, tell us more about that! Time management /staying happy One question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy? -- India’s twitter: https://twitter.com/indialandwaters  India’s LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/india-waters/    ✌️ --Intro music by Wowa via UnminusCover art created by SLB