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Hotel Design Podcast
40 minutes | Jun 10, 2022
Hotel Design Podcast #27: Staci Patton
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Staci Patton, Principal & Hospitality Interior Design Director of DLR Group. This show was captured during the NEWH Leadership Conference in Seattle. Host Glenn Haussman has Staci start by explaining that DLR Group is a multidisciplinary design firm. Staci leads the hospitality studio, a boutique group within a larger organization, overseeing 60 people within the locations of Minneapolis, Chicago, and Kansas City. The projects that the team works on are varied, and include lifestyle and luxury boutique work. Staci says it is essential for boutique and lifestyle design is all about story telling. Without that, a hotel lacks an identity. Though it is easier to find a story through adaptive reuse buildings, even if a hotel is a new build, a smart story must be crafted to serve as a project’s design throughline. For focused brand hotels, stories can be told through the local environment. Her diligent focus on storytelling derives from her original career goal, journalism, and she shares how she discovered her true calling for design. The first project discussed is the AC Scottsdale North. Staci and her team have worked on over 35 different AC Hotel designs. Part of the Marriott brand family, this property brand stands out for its classic European modernism design. The goal for all AC Hotels is that no AC Hotel looks the same due to the customized hyperlocal influences that are used as compliments to each hotel’s design. In AC Scottsdale North, that translates to striking designs that are carried throughout the space to mirror the vertical lines of cacti found throughout Phoenix. Next, Glenn and Staci discuss the distinctions between classic style verses trends and how the design dialogue has morphed through the ages. Staci also shares insights on creating dynamic communal outdoor spaces. AC Scottsdale North’s pool and lounge are shown as examples, which have biophilic elements such as fire, waterfalls, and plants incorporated into them. The next project is the Catbird Hotel, a Sage Hospitality property located in Denver’s RiNo Art District. Partnering with branding company OMFGCO, the concept blurs the distinction between hotel and home. Distinctly eclectic, the design uses colors strategically throughout it. Spaces also need to be highly functional, as the property is designed for stays upwards of a month or more. The teams therefore created a loft-like space with expanded kitchenettes and an expanded social living zone. The Cottonwood Hotel, in Omaha is the next property examined. Formerly called the Blackstone, the property was historically a stopping space for people traveling from New York to the West when it first opened in 1916. The project started with a gutted hotel, so the team visited the nearby Durham Museum and worked historical Western elements into the common areas of the building’s design. This Kimpton property leveraged the power of a historic building as a base from which to build a story. Meanwhile, the guest rooms have a very light and minimalist feel to help guests feel serene and relaxed. The final project brings us to Iowa for a look at the Surety Hotel, which the owners call a “modern grand hotel ushering an exciting new era in downtown Des Moines.” Another historic space, this hotel is a modern homage to the former bank & offices that were in the building’s original intent. The Perry Hotel Group embraced elements such as mosaic tile, then paired it with modern Midwest inspiration. Staci shares advice that was given to her from one of her mentors when she started her career, and also shares an encouraging message for any new designers. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
49 minutes | Apr 29, 2022
#26 Simeone Deary Design Group
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Lisa Simeone and Gina Deary - two of the principals of Chicago based Simeone Deary Design Group. Host Glenn Haussman, Lisa and Gina start by discussing the state of hotel design in 2022. Both guests feel optimistic about the state of design during the past few years and believe the future is open to new design concepts and creativity. Incredibly, post Covid, design has emerged on the other side with a lot of positivity and a lot of change for the better, they say. Many of the worries associated with COVID crisis protocols such as the permanence of special distancing and barriers are gone, which allows designers to get back to creative rather than being hamstrung by functional design. These days, food & beverage spaces are more frequently being incorporated directly into the lobby experience. The principals discuss Yours Truly DC, which opened during the height of COVID boasting a central bar with the entire lobby serving as a restaurant. The concept: having a productive social place to hang as a group, or be alone together. Interestingly, while they’ve been partners for 20 years, they typically work independently of each other, choosing to use each other as creative partners to bounce ideas off of. Combined, they weave into their design incredible guest experiences. “It's not always just about the sticks and stone of design”, they philosophize, but bringing in experiential components that transform spaces into Instagrammable moments. One project they discuss is the Austin Marriott Downtown, in Austin, TX. Despite being a branded hotel with specific standards, the property has a beautiful, clean, modern, & classic design pushing the notion of what a branded hotel can be. Rather than feel prototypical, instead the property has a timeless appeal hinting at the Austin landscape. The next project discussed is the Hotel Kansas City, part of The Unbound Collection by Hyatt. Formally a men’s club known as the Kansas City Club, the space was transformed into a hotel. Here, the adaptive reuse project highlights existing architectural elements which underscored the craftsmanship of the original structure. The existing building also featured myriad unexpected treasures utilized to tell smaller stories within that bigger hotel design story. When creating The Detroit Foundation Hotel, the team looked back at the region’s auto industry for inspiration, combining the aesthetic and automobile colors as the palette in which they created the broader design. In rooms, pastel colors and design elements evoking the auto industry are used to create guestroom design tone. Also featured are the downtown Dallas based Monarch and Kessaku restaurants, located at the top of the Thompson Hotel. Here, the Jewelbox Bar has a stunning metal flower chandelier that orients the design for the small 10 seat bar. The craft cocktails bar also serves as a space delineating different space elements as guests move between separate dining areas. Meanwhile, the Cheyenne Club at The Farm at Brush Creek Ranch is located on an 80,000 acre ranch owned by White Lodging. Here, the project is an expanded version of a farm to table concept, including a brewery, distillery, fine dining restaurant, creamery, bakery, and greenhouse. The ranch’s cattle supplies the restaurant’s beef, while lambs and goats supply the dairy. It’s a true experience where the design was created entirely from reclaimed materials. Finally, the designers reveal an important secret for any future designer: build an art piece into the construction budget, thus it’s included in the overall project budget, eliminating the chance the art budget will be cut considerably as the projects moves along. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
53 minutes | Apr 8, 2022
#25: Therese Virserius, Founder of Virserius Studio
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome award-winning designer Therese Virserius, Founder of Virserius Studio. She’s worked on projects such as W Atlanta Midtown, Renaissance Paris La Défense Hotel, Hyatt Regency Montreal and others such as the Arizona Biltmore. Host Glenn Haussman and Therese start off by discussing how she envisioned some of the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas’ suites and its guestrooms. “It was a massive project,” says Therese, as she describes the process of renewing the property five floors at a time, touching 3,000 rooms. The two discuss artistic point of view, Therese’s Swedish heritage, her global travels around Europe and Asia, and how experiences with many cultures affects her design approach. Interestingly she worked with IKEA, but in business development and logistics. Turns out that wasn’t satisfying enough, and her curiosity propelled her in the direction of hotel design. They move on to discussing the reimagining of the Frank Lloyd Wright inspired Arizona Biltmore Waldorf Astoria hotel, and the challenges and opportunities to modernizing a historic hotel while still paying respect to its iconic roots. They discuss the delicate balance of adding new design elements. Her biggest challenge: harmonizing a property that has had many expansions and “potentially less diligence in honoring the original design.” Turns out that over the decades, renovation drifted from the original concept, so they discuss balancing the need to honor the hotel’s historic nature vs. newer elements where permitted, opening up spaces for more flow, creating new spaces that evoke a historic feel and modernizing the cottages. Therese discusses the importance of materials, managing historic vs. non historic project elements, reinventing the event space around the main lawn with a new bar/ lounge, site line connections, the hotel’s signature cottages, opening up congested spaces in the main building and more. Plus, they discuss the use of LVT as a design element and how it adds to the overall look and feel of the newly reinvented cottages. Then Glenn and Therese move from the desert environment to one decidedly beachier, The Ray Hotel Delray Beach, Curio Collection by Hilton in Florida. The two use this property to discuss creating something inherently of the region; one that is a beach hotel, yet not actually on the beach. Plus, they discuss the challenges and solutions to creating an eye-catching hotel required to follow many specific architectural related regulations. Here, Therese created an escape that manages to feel upscale and modern with a design she dubs “tropical modernism”. Some tricks she leveraged was to create different zones in public spaces that freely flow but also feels distinct. It’s also about breaking down the barriers between the staff, customers, and the overall experience so that a guest can feel more comfortable and ultimately hopefully feel more at home. She also discusses design strategies such as utilizing mirrors to create the feeling of more space, how lighting affects mood and can be utilized in different ways throughout the day, and other useful pieces of advice. They also talk about the continual journey of learning and how to leverage the nuances of different desires, cultures, consumer behavior to create memorable, functional designs and how to keep yourself mentally fit and constantly creative. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
56 minutes | Feb 25, 2022
#24: Laurie Woliung, Senior Director of Global Design with Marriott Int'l
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Laurie Wouling, Senior Director of Global Design, US and Canada, for the Distinctive Selects Brands with Marriott International. Host Glenn Haussman and Laurie start by discussing how the lifestyle concept is an essential design aesthetic – which is very popular with guests who are looking for ‘experience’ – and is shown through brands such as Moxy, AC Hotel, Element and Aloft. Laurie shares how Marriott partners with owners and consultants when developing the design and brand standards that fit within the brand’s DNA. The relationship continues throughout the entire design and development process and through construction and opening. One property that they focus on is the Moxy Houston - an adaptive reuse project created within a former bank, which dated back to the early 1900’s. The team adapted the banking thematic and building’s history into the Moxy’s design. They discuss how the AC Hotel brand is making inroads with the development community and consumers in North America. AC was originally developed by Antonio Catalán in Madrid, Spain in the late 1990’s from a belief that business travelers have an insatiable curiosity for urban culture. Catalán saw an opportunity to create a brand with a seamless, clean, modern and timeless aesthetic. In 2014, Marriott brought AC to the United States, and the brand’s footprint has expanded to more than 200 hotels worldwide in less than 10 years. One property discussed is the AC Hotel Scottsdale North – a modern, clean and timelessly designed property that has 175 rooms and is owned by Host Hotels and Resorts. Laurie shares how essential storytelling is to design by using this hotel an example as to how she and her team develop a story, then pull that thematic through the entire project. Biophilic design has become very important – which brings the interior and exterior together by incorporating nature's elements throughout the design. Another brand they dive into is Aloft – which leverages bright lights & colors, vibrant spaces, technology, and music. Their market is travelers who are looking for a savvy experience with interests in technology & live music. Exterior LED lights stand out under the canopy similar to a raceway appearance. The WXYZ lounge & bar within the property features a contemporary loft space with unfinished ceilings and concrete floors – allowing a focal point for vibrant colors to pop. Marriott obtained the Element brand during their Starwood acquisition, and Element makes health and wellness their main priorities. They discuss the Nashville Vanderbilt West End. Here, one of the key pieces to the property’s design is the lobby lounge space, featuring 16-foot ceilings and an entire wall of glass that is connected to an exterior Terra space that produces great natural light. Moxy was intended for more urban settings, and features a fun and eccentric aesthetic that includes concrete and steel creating an industrial gritty environment. This hotel stands out because its design encourages guests to spend more time in its public spaces. One design strategy is to use found objects as part of the hotel. By taking this design element into play, it makes the hotel Instagrammable and provides the guest an opportunity to interact with the design as they share the hotel’s story. “We encourage Instagramable moments throughout the property,” says Laurie, providing an example of Moxy’s elevators that function as a photo booth. This encourages guests to be more of an active participant during their stay – further connecting people to the hotel and the brand. Finally, Laurie shares that as a designer you learn by listening and discovery. Design tends to be borrowed and reinterpreted through the brand’s lens. She believes hospitality design is so infectious because it pulls together so many different types of design. Laurie also shares insightful advice for young individuals looking to jump in the industry. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
53 minutes | Jan 28, 2022
#23: Paul Steelman
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Paul Steelman - CEO of Steelman Partners. Paul Steelman was previously on our show during Episode 10. Host Glenn Haussman is an avid casino resort design enthusiast, and he starts the conversation with Paul Steelman by discussing his rich and vibrant background. Paul began his career prior to the birth of modern Las Vegas, which began with the creation of Steve Wynn’s The Mirage – the world’s first mega-resort. Paul notes that the entrepreneurial spirit of Steve Wynn was absolutely incredible and they discuss how he parlayed a small investment into the ownership of The Golden Nugget, before setting out to redefine the entire notion of Las Vegas with the creation of The Mirage. One of the most prominent projects that Steelman Partners designed was Resorts World Las Vegas – a recently opened $5 billion mega-resort on the Las Vegas Strip. Steelman recounts the long process from its initial design & concepts in 2012, to finally opening the modern Asian-inspired resort in 2021 after many design changes. Paul and Glenn discuss the challenges of basing the resort over a failed mega-resort project called Project Echelon, a Boyd Gaming Project which was partially completed before succumbing the financial crisis in 2008. They also reviewed the maturation of casino resorts and how the design of this project pushes the project into a new era of design. This influenced the casino to be located centrally to the building with all amenities surrounding the casino floor. Paul’s philosophy is that the casino must be the most energetic room in any casino resort building - 24 hours a day. Resorts World Las Vegas has a different casino design, which is long and narrow, and allows guests to take less steps overall to reach their destination. This makes the gaming floor easily accessible from all sides, an idea that Paul sees as successful through his many years of designing multiple Asian resorts in Macau, China. Paul believes that every new casino must have something new that attracts and entices guests. A beautiful hotel and beautiful restaurant simply aren’t enough any longer. Customers crave something new and unique within a singular attraction. When Steelman Partners designed Circa, they designed the most incredible sports books - one inside that stretches three stories - and Stadium Swim, an unique and redefining outdoor sports experience. They also discuss the Freemont Street Experience - which spans over 4 blocks and accommodates entertainers, free concerts, and more. They also discuss the concept of themed resorts, and creating buildings and that transcend a specific style and remain timeless. They also talk about how Lorenzo Doumani, a young, new developer and the son of Edward Doumani, imagined building a non-gaming hotel. That project has recently broke ground, and is called The Majestic – which is located directly across from the Las Vegas Convention Center. Paul shares how this convention focused hotel has redesigned the experience to better help businesses achieve their meetings’ goals. Finally, they discuss new endeavors that Steelman Partners is working on, along with concepts that Paul things will remain prevalent. They discuss sports, e-sports, and sports viewing – which is slated to reinvent the town and will reinvent these buildings a great deal. Paul thinks the integration of various digital services, including digital live gaming will in fact change the future. They are anticipating that artificial intelligence and virtual reality applications will be the next wave of entertainment. Visit our website to view our extended notes and follow along with some great project visuals - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and make sure to subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
46 minutes | Jan 14, 2022
#22: Ron Swidler, Chief Innovation Officer, Gettys Group Cos
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome back to the show Ron Swidler - who is the Chief Innovation Officer of the Gettys Group Companies. Ron was previously featured on our podcast during Episode 3. Host Glenn Haussman and Ron start by discussing how we’re at an interesting intersection in history and how it’s created the rare opportunity to reinvent everything we do in hospitality design from scratch. It's the Great Reset: a chance to try new things with less scrutiny than the pre covid era. It’s a chance to fail without judgment, and an opportunity to push traditional design boundaries of what could be when it comes to the future of hospitality. They talk about the varied facets of the company’s Hotel of Tomorrow project, which brings together industry leaders, students, and manufacturers to work together to change conventional thinking when it comes to hotel design. First, they discuss biophilic design - the notion of bringing in natural elements into a building - and how this intersects with the notion of activating spaces that appeal to different day parts. This design is reflected in a concept developed during last year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project called Outside In, Inside Out. For example, Ron and Glenn discuss how programmable lighting, as well as large format LED displays, are becoming more affordable and available. Another strategy is to turn parking spots in front of a restaurant to create outdoor dining space. They discuss how LEDs are used to shift lighting within a space throughout the course of the day to better match circadian cycles. This allows hoteliers to create different moods during different day parts that are designed to lead to higher customer engagement, and hopefully translating to higher food & beverage sales. The downtown Minneapolis Rand Tower Hotel is another project design by The Gettys Group. Here, Ron explains how the property has sensors and display screens in the meeting spaces showing the air quality. They quickly move onto a project that was envisioned during last year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project called Robot Alliance. They address how to expand food and beverage offerings beyond the constraints of a restaurant or a bar that might be tucked away in a hotel. Another cool technology discussed is Bed XYZ - a sleep platform concept created during last year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project that monitors sleep quality while allowing the gamification of multiple sleep environment elements. This concept allows guests to try to achieve a higher sleep score during their night’s stay! Going beyond the hotel’s walls, a student group determined that an RV could be serviced and picked up at a hotel. While stopping at the affiliated hotels along the travel route to get housekeeping, guests can get room service, or to use the pool and the amenities of the hotel. Glenn and Ron also discuss virtual reality and its use as a training tool. Not only does this system teach specific job tasks, but it also lets others understand how difficult it is to do a specific the job - which leads to a higher appreciation for that staff member. Finally, they summarize the virtual reality experience is a truly remarkable experiment currently being pushed by many Big Tech companies and others. Listen to how this will have wide ranging change on how we interact with each other and build environments, and how this influences this year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project. It’s not too late to be a part of this year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project! They are still accepting members to be involved in this project, and you can register and learn more about this year’s Hotel Of Tomorrow Project by visiting https://hotel-of-tomorrow.com/ . Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
47 minutes | Jan 7, 2022
Hotel Design Podcast #21: Malcolm Berg
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Malcolm Berg, who is the founder, President and Design Director of EoA Group. He also was named the Designer of the Year during the 2020 Gold Key Awards. Host Glenn Haussman and Malcolm start by discussing his background, and Malcolm shares what motivated him to be a hospitality focused designer. He attended graduate school for architecture and studied a variety of architecture design focuses - a path which ultimately led him to hospitality design as a focus for his emerging expertise. Malcolm and Glenn discuss EoA’s work at the JW Marriott in Marco Island where he talks about engaging stakeholders to help projects run smoothly. For Malcolm, creating extraordinary design is about finding those “little golden nuggets” in imperfections, and beauty found in those uncommon places. Then it’s a process of extracting those factors and then distilling them into something essential. That’s where the project’s DNA reveals itself. The hardest aspect of the design phase, Malcolm says, is creating the overall concept. To solve this issue, the EoA team works to understand what the “property wants to be when it grows up, and what is its personality.” Everything else flows from there. It's not a subjective exercise, it literally is sequential, he says, adding that everything else follows naturally from that point. He addresses how the property must be something authentic and organic; not contrived. Malcom’s goal for any project is to make that property fiscally successful and emotionally satisfying, which has myriad components to it from creating spaces people want to be in and how its run operationally. Plus, Berg says its critical to hue close to trends, as pushing boundaries too far could result in designs that feel outdated in a relatively short period of time. He also explains his notion of empathetic design, sharing what that means to him and how it relates to satisfying all project stakeholders beyond owners, such as how it relates to daily operations. The next project Glenn and Malcom discuss is the Barcardi Ocho Lounge, a VIP lounge sponsored by the spirits company and located at the American Airlines Arena in Miami, Florida. According to Berg, finding success in all projects is about deeply understanding a brand, and how that brand is represented in a physical space. In this instance, they asked many questions to drill down to the brand’s essential elements, then built a strong design around those brand tenets. This is the secret sauce essential to design success! Meanwhile, his work at The Ben, Autograph Collection in West Palm Beach, Florida focused entirely on creating a rich backstory, inspiring overall design. Here, his team reached into history, bringing past stories to the fore. In this case, the story was driven by the notion of the hotel’s namesake character Ben - a rugged type who’s out hunting and trapping in the wilderness by day, and then cleans up and demonstrates impeccable style by night. The spoils of his work are displayed throughout, which helps create individualized moments and clearly defines the hotel’s aesthetic. But be warned - Malcom urges those to think carefully about creating Instagramable moments for the sake of creating Instagramable moments. That leads to poor decision making because you wind up creating erroneous moments that distract and take away authenticity. Berg finds it’s better to engage designing space holistically, by thinking about the entire space, rather than a photographable moment. Finally, they talk about The Peregrine Omaha Downtown, Curio Collection by Hilton, located in Omaha, Nebraska and managed by Chesapeake Hospitality. This former bank had a peregrine falcon family roosting on the roof, and during the demolition phase other birds flocked to this location - creating the idea of birds taking flight as a symbolic relationship to property design. This project also had a series of structurally related challenges that helped push Malcolm and his team to be even more creative to find success. Here, they had to lose some space to create better, more potentially profitable guestroom spaces. It’s an interesting approach to bringing in natural light as an element to create a more engaging, natural space. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch our video interviews!
48 minutes | Dec 15, 2021
Hotel Design Podcast #20: Glen Coben
We're back! Enjoy this new episode and many more coming in 2022! In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Glen Coben, President and Owner of Glen & Company. Coben is a huge driving force within the hotel design community, and brings a unique point of view from the retail environment where he previously worked with Nike. They start by discussing his background, and how stories are told in various sporting cultures globally. Coben reveals how he keeps things fresh by continuing to add to his project’s design dialogue. Take an example regarding how he designed two different Italian restaurants and how his firm focused on ensuring that each one was distinctly unique. The goal: Be unrecognizable in the work from one project to another, since each is a wholly different experience! Coben and Glenn also discuss the Adelphi Hotel in Saratoga Springs, NY, where Coben shares the story of revitalizing the last remaining grand hotel in Saratoga Springs. The five-year hotel renovation project took on a life of its own, finding inspiration from existing classic interiors, without reinventing them. For example, original crystal serving dishes were turned into a beautiful backdrop behind the front desk to create a sense of place and time. The firm also reinvented the floor plan, expanding small out of date bathrooms into much larger spaces, and cutting the room count almost in half during the process to create a more luxurious property. Coben, it turns out, loves complicated and intricate types of design projects like that one. Glen and Company also created the Pestana – a modern property inspired by Portuguese roots – which is located in New York City. The unique part of this design was their approach to heightening the feel of space in a footprint limited in size. We learn how Coben and his team were able to create the illusion of space, along with some of their great design tips. He also focuses on how to be disciplined when it comes to creating a coherent and streamlined story from which the hotel’s design is built upon, specifically by sharing examples from the Archer. They discuss reinventing space to accentuate the dining experience by bringing it into the hotel, rather than hiding a restaurant where people do not actively see it. He also shares the story of how this hotel was based on a made-up character named Archer who loved art, music, and travel. They used this narrative to create a space that connected back to their envisioned Archer. Another project is the James Newbury Hotel in Coxsackie, NY - an old structure on the banks of the Hudson River in an industrial town. To reinvent this hotel, its history was the inspiration for its future, and Coben shares how they chose the elements of design to tell the story for this property. Once it has opened, it will have 46 rooms that connect to an older structure that houses the spa. Coben also discusses reinventing how guest rooms are laid out to change the focal point of the experience. Coben ends with his thoughts on how he knows when a building needs to be taken down and completely redone and when it can be upgraded. He says that young designers can become better storytellers by not relying on social media, but by going out and experiencing life and new spaces. He says that we must put the story on paper and keep looking at the details. Follow along with some great project visuals on our website - http://hoteldesignpodcast.com/ - and subscribe to our new Youtube page to watch the video interview!
66 minutes | Jul 20, 2021
Hotel Design Expert Mike Suomi
Design expert Mike Suomi is back to talk about how COVID continues to influence the future designs of hotels. Plus, we take a look at some great projects. This episode was originally aired as part of the series No Vacancy Live with Glenn Haussman and Anthony Melchiorri. Watch this episode on video here: https://youtu.be/4g-1PWj1iK4 We'll be returning soon with all new Hotel Design Podcast episodes!
29 minutes | Feb 26, 2021
EPISODE 43: Barbara Best-Santos, Principal of ForrestPerkins--a Perkins Eastman company
In today’s episode, Cheryl speaks with Barbara Best-Santos, Principal of ForrestPerkins--a Perkins Eastman company. During their conversation, Cheryl asks Barbara the question, “How does having the kind of design expertise and experience in hospitality help you in your healthcare design projects?” To give you a little background, for 20 years Barbara Best-Santos has led the design of boutique and large-scale hotels, spas, restaurants, and resorts! Barbara’s answer was inspiring. She shares, “Hospitality can bring the focus to the guest experience and to the guest journey. We can be a little disruptive in the tried and true healthcare interiors focused arena and at the same time we get to collaborate with our partners who are really deep experts in healthcare. So the clients are getting the best of both worlds.” Learn more about the changing face of healthcare and senior living design from someone with decades of experience and understanding of how hospitality design can influence and improve the patient, family, staff and community experience. Lean more about Barbara Best-Santos and Forrest/Perkins by visiting https://forrestperkins.com/. In Cheryl’s conversation with Barbara Best-Santos they discuss: With over 20 years leading the design of boutique and large-scale hotels, spas, restaurants, and resorts, how has Barbara worked on breaking down the borders between hospitality and healthcare design, and hospitality and senior living design? How does Barbara’s design expertise and experience in hospitality inform her current work? What was Barbara’s role in the MarinHealth hospital project in Marin, California? Barbara’s work with a new senior living project with a Zen aesthetic in Healdsburg, California called Enso Village. This project is a collaboration between The Buddhist Center in San Francisco with the senior living group Kendal Corporation whose philosophy of design is based on Quaker ideals. Learn more about Enso Village by visiting: https://enso.kendal.org/. What will healthcare and senior living look like in 30 years from Barbara’s perspective? Barbara’s advice to interior design students who are interested in healthcare design but are afraid to specialize in it.
47 minutes | Feb 15, 2020
Hotel Design Podcast #17: Tom Ito, Principal, Gensler
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome Tom Ito, Principal at Gensler. Tom Ito is a force in the hotel design community and created the hospitality division of Gensler back in the late 1990s. Since then, it has been a whirlwind of creating some of the most incredible hotel designs we’ve ever seen – some of which have had far more impact than the building itself. Tom Ito and host Glenn Haussman start by discussing downtown Los Angeles and the impact that the L.A. Live development created for AEG, and its J.W. Marriott and Ritz Carlton hotels. This project set off a storm of development transforming the entire neighborhood in subsequent years. They delve into details regarding that project, the ones that came after, such as the Hotel Indigo Los Angeles Downtown, as well as an 800-room expansion of the hotel that is set to be built shortly. They talk about the reinvention of how hotel public spaces are used, tying in the notion of the third place – where people hang outside of work and home. Glenn calls it the Great Convergence, and the conversation shifts to how to create instant communities of people in those public spaces. Then they discuss expanding the design dialogue to avoid homogeneity, a problem that is infecting many designs. They use Moxy as an example here in creating properties that are appealing to a specific group. They talk about balancing loud spaces, meeting spaces, public spaces and more to create a diversified offering both within and outside brand standards. The conversation then shifts to a survey Gensler conducted on ethnographic and qualitative analysis on design and experience, and the roles they play. This episode shares how that has affected the way Ito and his team create. They also go over design and efficiency regarding to how a property operates once it’s up and running. The conversation also focuses on designing for different cultures and how a hotel in Mecca would differ from one in Greece or Boston. They also discuss the notion of Feng Shui and its design effect. If that’s not enough for you, The Mayfair is discussed, which brought a Los Angeles hotel from 1929 back to life. Glenn stayed there and they go over the concept of reinventing a historic property for a modern era. Finally, they wrap up with their thoughts on technology and how it’s affected not just the guest experience, but overall how hotels are designed. Listen now! Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com for more episodes, or feel free to email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
39 minutes | Dec 27, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #16: Siobhan Barry, Design Director at Gensler
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome Siobhan Barry, Design Director at Gensler. Like everything we see with hospitality design lately, projects are grounded in ‘experience’ - something that Barry says is essential to satisfying today’s customer. Good thing that she has had plenty of experience doing just this sort of thing since the 1990s. That’s when she spent a considerable amount of time working on nightclub related projects, where experience is essential. Glenn and Siobhan discuss the rise of bottle service, which transformed the nightclub scene, and how they’re developed. They also discuss how selling real estate changes the economics of this side of the hospitality business, and how music, décor, and customers’ desires have changed since that era. They talk about how design must appeal to both women and men while creating a scene in both restaurants and nightclubs that facilitates mingling and more. Siobhan shares how to create an interplay between the different elements of design to create the perfect foundation for people to make those connections against the pageantry of it all. Then they move onto hotels from the nightclub world by chatting about the Ian Schrager effect on hotels and hospitality. Glenn and Siobhan layer on how culture is pushing the hotel experience to change, especially when it comes to satisfying that screen need and how business and leisure trips are melding. Siobhan shares some detailed tactics for designs including table heights, depth of seating and more. It is an essential lesson that many designers do not seem to get right. Afterall, it’s more critical than ever, especially as folks tend to want to hang out more in public spaces. Designers must create a great, comfortable environment which prompts people to spend more money. Siobhan and Glenn use the Citizen M in New York as an example for this and talk about the balance between the science and heart of design. Then Glenn and Siobhan discuss the dichotomy of the hotel experience vs. shared economy type stays. Siobhan shares a story about her experience with Airbnb and how it underscores to her the importance of knowing what your brand is, how it should be communicated to a target audience, and how everything should be geared with that specific point of view. Technology is also discussed, of course. But in this case, they chat about how it is used in the design process and how it helps create common ground quicker between developers and designers - like a virtual model room. They wrap up discussing an airline lounge project that Siobhan loves and how it’s changing the notion of what that product is supposed to be. Listen and find out how. Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com for more episodes, or feel free to email us at email@example.com.
41 minutes | Nov 26, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #15: Kimberly Daoust
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome designer Kimberly Daoust, who is principal at Tandem - a Las Vegas-based interior design firm that she co-founded in 2005. While she lives in Austin, TX, she commutes by plane to Vegas. The conversation starts out with how Las Vegas is a great place for design freedom. Kim loves that by nature, the city is impermanent and so is its design. Glenn and Kim then discuss the first casino resort project that she ever took part in 25 years ago. The project was a riverboat casino, which she did with Paul Steelman - another visionary who was previously featured on The Hotel Design Podcast. Kim then shares her experiences working on creating The Cromwell, which was the first project that her company Tandem completed on The Strip. The project challenged her to utilize original structural and design elements of the former Bill’s Gambling Saloon, such as the existing chandeliers, as a starting point for a modern boutique hotel design experience. She also shares details about what it was like working with Las Vegas icon and nightclub visionary Victor Drai, and how he inspired her to utilize a more feminine design approach throughout the property. They also discuss the opportunities and limitations designing new guestrooms in older guestrooms ideally built for a previous era, and how the small scale of the entire property has affected its overall evolution. The conversation shifts to her role in designing the Bret Michaels suite at the Hard Rock Riviera Maya, and then back again to Las Vegas to discuss recreating the historic El Cortez. Kim discussed tying in a graphic street art element into the design, and the notion of designing something seemingly timeless in a city where timeless is anything but that. She also discusses the Black Hawk Casino expansion project in Colorado outside Denver. It has a Wild West feel in an area that goes back to the days of gold rushes back in the 1800s. Kim goes into detail about how she created a sense of authenticity for the 500-room hotel expansion. The area is also exceptionally small, and the one-lane roads to leading to the hotel are curvy and narrow, so she talks about how that challenge affected the entire project from design to execution. Finally, Glenn and Kim discuss how she found her calling as a designer, how her dad’s role in the fabric business affected that goal, and how she found her way into casino and resort design through residential design. She also shares an emotional story regarding designing and building the Hard Rock Biloxi, MS, which was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina just before it was set to open. Kim also provides many incredible tips that you have to listen to. Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com for more episodes, or feel free to email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
47 minutes | Oct 28, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #14: Bunnyfish
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome Tina Wichmann and Craig Palacios of the Las Vegas based design firm, Bunnyfish. They have been involved in some major projects, such as helping entrepreneur and CEO of Zappos Tony Hsieh reinvent downtown Las Vegas. The conversation starts with the duo dissecting a project they did in Reno, Nevada to reinvent the Renaissance Reno Downtown Hotel. That brand was on the cusp of irrelevancy, but Marriott wanted to reinvent it. The folks at Bunnyfish worked closely with the Marriott team to follow overarching brand strategies while accommodating the desire to create something new that hadn’t been done before. We hear the story about the Renaissance Hotel’s reinvention, and how they rethought guestroom components such as the desk (which has come under lots of scrutiny lately in the hotel business), the dresser, and many other components. Then, the conversation shifts to how hotel amenities have changed during the last 20 years as guests are looking to have more experiences. Now, food and beverages have returned as a critical element of hotel industry’s profitability. Guests are starting to do a lot more outside the guestroom, including connecting over coffee and being social in the hotel’s public spaces. Now, it’s about rethinking everything about the public space experience from the entire lobby, to the F&B experience, to the changing nature of how guests want to interact with staff. They discuss what all of that means in the context of service touchpoints and what designers should think about in the future, such as how to create spaces that morph during different times to equally capture the breakfast rush and the happy hour crowd respectively. Then, Tina and Craig discuss how they met entrepreneur and Zappos founder Tony Hsieh at their favorite coffee shop, who they formed a working relationship with after bonding over architectural books and their love for adaptive reuse projects. At some point, Bunnyfish was tasked with helping reinvigorate what was then a flagging downtown area at the behest of Hsieh. They took on the task of reinventing the Inspire theatre in Las Vegas, added two stories and morphed it into a popular bar, lounge, nightclub and theater. It’s one of the main attractions that have people hanging out in downtown Las Vegas again in record numbers. Finally, they discuss how micro apartments have come into fashion, particularly for millennials, and how that changes the way hotels are being developed for the rising needs of Generation Z. They also chat about creating new active adult communities and how that applies to changing hotel industry trends. Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com for more episodes, or feel free to email us at email@example.com.
45 minutes | Aug 29, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #13: Todd-Avery Lenahan
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome the founder of TAL Studio, Todd-Avery Lenahan. Based in Las Vegas, TAL Studio has been an integral part in designing huge projects for many major companies, including Disney and Wynn. In fact, since we recorded this show in late spring, TAL is merging with Wynn entirely. So there’s been a little change in the company’s structure, but not its ethos. Todd has always loved hotels. From his earliest days traveling with family and staying in brands like Holiday Inn and Howard Johnsons, his passion for hotels was always there. Little did he know that he’d be designing them one day. Todd shares how he started working at hotels when he was 15 years old, which provided him with an operational background that most hotel designers do not have. Part of the conversation focuses on discussing how his operational background meshes with his love of design to significantly inform him of creating functional properties that also look great. “It's not just the physical quality of the building being some extraordinary opulent environment. What we do is we create a canvas upon which service delivery can be rolled out in the most anticipatory seamless way,” says Lenahan. This is essential to how he approaches hotel design. Too many resorts, for example, have infrastructural shortcomings even if they look gorgeous. Todd shares his philosophy on creating a structure that first and foremost serves the property’s operation, which helps owners save money in the long run while simultaneously increasing customer service. He also provides some strategies for designers to increase back of house functionality in the design phase. An important aspect of the conversation regards creating memorable guest experiences. For Todd, that means focusing on great storytelling at the property. His approach, which is an important lesson that he learned while working with Disney, is to look at the property’s story like a screenplay. He says he approaches this part of the job in a cinematic way. This helps create what he sees as a consensus around ideas while giving all stakeholders and construction people a framework for all design work to follow. He also shares how storytelling is critical to creating memorable spaces, managing owner and developer expectations, and more. Todd mentions that some Disney projects were used as case studies – including the Boardwalk Hotel, where he served as an Imagineer. Todd also brings up a Four Seasons project in Lanai, which opens the conversation up to the challenges of turning an aging building that is not built to today’s customer expectations into something that resonates with guests today at the luxury level. There is a struggle with making it feel authentic, which is a challenge on an island with less than 100 years of human history associated with it. He shares how they examined the greater Polynesian region for inspiration. They wrap up the conversation by discussing designing for companies like Viceroy and how the property in Chicago is very different than one of their hotels in Mexico, for example. Todd also shares details about creating memorable guest experiences that also drive owner profitability at the same time. Enjoy the show and be sure to visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com, or email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
40 minutes | Jul 25, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #12: Larry Broughton, CEO of BroughtonHotels
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome incredible hotelier Larry Broughton, CEO of the boutique hotel company broughtonHOTELS. We also welcome the general manager of the Park James Hotel, Weston Spiegl. This show was recorded on the evening of the Park James hotel’s opening celebration, which is located in the Silicon Valley city of Menlo Park. The incredible luxury hotel has 61-rooms and is designed to carefully balance great service and technology. So, it’s natural this conversation focuses on combining design aesthetic created by Parissa O’Connell Interior Design – in this case California Craft - with critical intuitive guest facing, and back of house technologies. They discuss the design approach and its focus on using natural woods, balanced textures and the right lighting to create the overall visual appeal of the varied spaces. However, this hotel is also about getting away from Silicon Valley technology, so the conversation discusses how to create the right tech balance as part of the design. For Broughton, that means incorporating only elements that are intuitive to use. Their philosophy, guests in Silicon Valley have enough technology in their lives, and the hotel experience must balance digital and real experiences. For example, they discuss the hotel’s ‘pour over’ coffee experience is as critical as the guestroom elements that are plugged in. It’s all about crafting an luxurious feeling experiences that helps calm people while keeping them productive. Then the conversation focuses on the actual design of the hotel, it’s overall look and feel and a discussion of the specific elements of the property. Broughton and Spiegl wax on about the importance of texture on wallpaper, as an example of getting the details right. Also discussed is the importance of engaging a design team as early as possible in the hotel development process. This is essential to accurately create a hotel that fits the developer’s vision, operational necessities, and ultimately guest expectations. They talk about how developers look to save money by waiting to hire designers, but how in the long run that could create even costlier mistakes. Broughton discusses the characteristics of a good leader and the leadership qualities Weston has that secured the job for him, though until this job had zero general manager experience. Broughton also shares his design philosophy, what he expects from a design firm and ways to create a great partnership between developers and designers. It’s a matter of finding way to communicate the heart and soul of the project to designers in way they can then go and visually interpret that desire. They even share the story of where the hotel’s name came from. Listen now and find out! Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com or email us at email@example.com.
47 minutes | Jul 9, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #11: Beth Campbell, CEO, Wilson Associates
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast, we welcome Beth Campbell – CEO of global interior architecture firm Wilson Associates. The company has designed some of the world’s most iconic addresses across the globe, and Campbell is looking to ensure its future success. This episode begins by highlighting Campbell’s personal journey from starting as a designer, to her shift to the operations side of the business, and then to the challenges of being a new CEO. They discuss what it’s like stepping into the shoes of the company’s founder, what starting a CEO role is like, and how one gets to know everyone within the organization. Plus, she talks about the importance of the Chinese market, where many of her staff members live, but also how the country is shaping the hotel market there. The conversation then shifts to discussing how designs must incorporate changing shifts in technology and how to plan, or in some cases, get caught by surprise about the rapid pace of technological changes. It’s a matter of figuring out what will be the right type of technology to use when the hotel opens, rather than when it’s on the drawing board. She also discusses the importance of understanding local culture and designing to those traditions and nuances. For example, if the company doesn’t have an office in that city, they try to send a team to the location. The team attempts to live like locals, try the local restaurants, and immerse themselves in the culture and energy of that community – ultimately to arrive at a culturally relevant and appealing hotel design solution. Campbell chats about strategies regarding how to smartly run a collaborative organization and meshing individual creativity with clients’ considerations. She strives to create a collaborative culture where her designers can stand up for their designs to clients, but also understand when not to. For her, the ultimate achievement is creating a place where people are free to challenge each other and take innovations and design risks in the overarching goal of surprising their clients. Campbell also speaks about what it’s like for a newly appointed CEO to make organizational changes, and the challenges and opportunities that can be born from that effort. Her intention was to create an organizational design strategy – yet how can you change so many things while keeping the corporate culture intact, and rallying people behind the cause? This is critical because it relates to her ability to morph corporate culture and understand the intricacies of helping people change within the organization at their own pace. The final part of the conversation focuses on the changing nature of luxury and how its meaning has become much more personalized to individual preferences and tastes. There is no longer a strict script for creating luxury hotels, but there are some rules to follow – and she revels them. Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com for more episodes, or feel free to email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
53 minutes | May 8, 2019
Hotel Design Podcast #10: Paul Steelman, CEO, Steelman Partners
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome design industry icon Paul Steelman. He’s been involved in some of the most influential casino resort and hotel projects around the globe. His company Steelman Partners, has been closely tied to the leaders of the casino resort business such as Steve Wynn, Sheldon Adelson and Kirk Kerkorian. Glenn and Paul touch on it all, from his start in a pre-gaming Atlantic City to a chance design the Golden Nugget and how that led to a seminal shift in what casinos would become. Paul talks about Steve Wynn being a visionary and how he got The Mirage launched with 1980s junk bonds with the help of the infamous Michael Milken and how the launch of this property changed everything about the Las Vegas casino resort scene. Plus, they talk about the pressure of creating what would become the model for the modern casino resort, what the Mirage design process was like and how much money the resort needed to make every day to survive. They even talk Siegfried and Roy the former Kokomo’s restaurant, which was a staple at Mirage. Steelman shares examples of why great design is essential and how it creates sense of place. Paul also reflects on the state of The Mirage today, and other stories from the early modern era in Las Vegas. Also, how Frank Sinatra and Steve Wynn’s relationship transformed the Golden Nugget both in Vegas and Atlantic City, how the Nugget the property reinvented east coast casino gaming. We even get an update on the current state of the city by the sea. The discussion moves onto the notion of creating an experience at “personal scale,” says Steelman and how that relates to properties and how that notion created design challenges at the original MGM Grand (now Bally’s), and how the casino forms the basis for a property’s energy and how other elements emanate from that energetic center. This conversation even examines the cruise ship like form of Showboat Atlantic City, Sol Kerzner and the creating of African casino resorts such as the famed Sun City. Also on tap, discussing designing casinos and resorts around the world from Dubai and Macau to Vietnam, South Africa and more. Here creating cultural relevance is critical and we learn about the process of how different cultures gamble differently and how that is reflected in design. After all, the American casino goer is very different than the prototypical player in Macau. In Macau, we hear about public casinos, VIP casinos and super VIP private casinos none of us will ever see. Plus, casino maverick Sheldon Adelson comes up as the conversation turns toward Venetian Macau. Other famous names that pop up in the conversation include Bill Bennett and Stanley Ho, before the conversation turns toward developing ship-based casinos. Finally, Paul and Glenn discuss the current and future state of the casino resort experience including the importance of great design to creating social media moments, the incredible resurgence of downtown Las Vegas, and creating highly organized entertainment experiences. Paul and Glenn also discuss Steelman’s ownership in a slot machine company, and how that company is using technology in new ways to lure younger casino goers. They sum the conversation with Steelman’s reflections back on how he and others changed the design-scape of the casino gaming resort business. Also, get your chance to receive a free book from Porcelanosa, which was launched in conjunction with the AIA (that’s the American Institute of Architects) who’s New York chapter run a program of architectural dialogues called Cocktails and Conversations. At these events, design world thought leaders present interviews on architecture’s place in the built environment, culture, master planning. They’re included in this book along with 50 great cocktail recipes, one in honor of each guest speaker. Interviews include titans such as Steven Holl, Charles Renfro, Daniel Libeskind, Deborah Berke, Todd Schliemann, Morris Adjmi, Michael Sorkin, the skyscrapers of William Pederen’s KPF that have changed forever the skylines of the world’s major cities and more. Send an email now for your chance to receive a complimentary copy: email@example.com Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com or email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
36 minutes | Apr 12, 2019
Episode 9: Valeriano Antonioli, CEO, Lungarno Collection
In this episode of the Hotel Design Podcast we welcome Valeriano Antonioli, CEO of the Lugarno Collection, an ultra-luxury hotel company reinventing the luxury hospitality experience. The company operates properties in Florence and Rome. The company’s newest brand Portrait is designed to be an extension of the community in which its located and Antonioli shares the critical nature of this strategy as travel trends change. Oh yeah, it happens to be owned by luxury fashion brand Salvatore Ferragamo. Valeriano and Glenn discuss the importance of creating designs that aren’t quite timeless but will stand the test of time. They discuss the importance of working with a great architect and using only the finest materials to create a feeling of elegance, both in the hotel and on its grounds through use of Feng Shui. They also discuss creating an amazing first impression through design and service, keeping the property up to five-star standards, why the company uses a name other than Ferragamo for its hotels, how fashion informs their hotel’s designs and the importance of giving guests time. Also, Valeriano shares about the community nature of The Portrait brand, which he says empowers the hotel to be a destination management company and how their job is to enable guest experiences in the community. To create successes, they speak to guests ahead of their stay to create a personal relationship from which they can help set the stage for memory creating experiences. We also learn about Valeriano’s personal journey. Also, get your chance to receive a free book from Porcelanosa, which was launched in conjunction with the AIA (that’s the American Institute of Architects) who’s New York chapter run a program of architectural dialogues called Cocktails and Conversations. At these events, design world thought leaders present interviews on architecture’s place in the built environment, culture, master planning. They’re included in this book along with 50 great cocktail recipes, one in honor of each honor of the guest speaker. Interviews include titans such as Steven Holl, Charles Renfro, Daniel Libeskind, Deborah Berke, Todd Schliemann, Morris Adjmi, Michael Sorkin, the skyscrapers of William Pederen’s KPF that have changed forever the skylines of the world’s major cities and more. Send an email now for your chance to receive a complimentary copy: email@example.com Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com or email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
39 minutes | Feb 3, 2019
Episode 8: Mike Suomi, Principal & VP Interior Design with Stonehill Taylor
In this episode of the Hotel Design podcast, we speak to Mike Suomi from Stonehill & Taylor, who discusses his and his team’s work on the iconic Eero Saarinen’s TWA building at JFK along. For Suomi, it’s a matter of getting into what Saarinen wanted to originally create when designing this incredible space. They talk materials and expected experience, how the original terminal was designed without straight lines and how that informed the design approach to arrive on a 1960’s aesthetic that works in the 21st century. Mike and Glenn also discuss how HGTV changed design culture in the same way the Food Network helped morph restaurant culture. They discuss how the firm also balances guests’ needs and hotel owner requests. They also go through the process of designing the Eliza Jane hotel in New Orleans’ French quarter, its in-depth design process, and how he and his team created a modern hotel from a series of abandoned warehouses while honoring the city’s history. Finally, they discuss bringing in a feminine design approach that doesn’t turn off more masculine personalities while also approaching residential style design in the hotel sphere, color trends and how the major hotel companies are embracing a more design forward approach. Also, get your chance to receive a free book from Porcelanosa, which was launched in conjunction with the AIA (that’s the American Institute of Architects) whose New York chapter run a program of architectural dialogues called Cocktails and Conversations. At these events, design world thought leaders present interviews on architecture’s place in the built environment, culture, master planning. They’re included in this book along with 50 great cocktail recipes, one in honor of each honor of the guest speaker. Interviews include titans such as Steven Holl, Charles Renfro, Daniel Libeskind, Deborah Berke, Todd Schliemann, Morris Adjmi, Michael Sorkin, the skyscrapers created by William Pedersen of KPF that have changed forever the skylines of the world’s major cities, and more. Send an email now for your chance to receive a complimentary copy: email@example.com Offer valid while supplies last. Visit us at www.hoteldesignpodcast.com or email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
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