116 minutes | Apr 11, 2021

Confessions of an ex NYC male sex worker

In our first interview with a male guest, we’re pulling out all of the stops. Sebastien is an ex New York City rent boy and long term friend of mine. We’ll go in depth about his ‘job,’ the world of chemsex, his spiral into addiction and his recovery. Tune in to listen to his story now. CHAPTERS 0:00 Introduction 4:02 How we met 6:25 How did a foreigner find himself at UCLA 7:12 Dry wit disclaimer 9:48 What kind of household did you grow up in? 10:39 Did you have a sense of your sexuality or asexuality when you were a boy? 14:36 What was your relationship like with your parents? 24:52 Childhood trauma and being denied humanity 26:36 The transition from being private to being a sex worker 32:46 Sexual hierarchies 34:36 Must you be a dom or sub in the gay community? 37:30 What is the true nature of someone who flips? 51:35 what is your favorite kind of man to interact with? 1:05:45 Is it difficult for someone who is overweight or unattractive in the gay community 1:07:37 Key sexual differences between men and women 1:10:12 Does sexual consent exist in the gay community 1:20:55 Will you struggle with addiction for the rest of your life or can your be temperate? 1:26:48 Was being a sex worker a full time job? 1:29:46 More key differences between men and women. Novelty and variety. 1:34:52 Are viagra, Trimix, or Cialis addictive? 1:35:51 Once a ho always a ho? 1:36:40 How do you give back to the community?  Welcome to the closeness podcast, your new sexual education. My name is Tari. I’m your host. And after nearly 60 episodes of closeness today’s interview features our first male guest. If you haven’t done so already, please take a moment to subscribe to our podcast@youtube.com/closeness or anywhere else. Podcasts can be found. Now, are you ready to come closer? Let’s get started. Today’s interview is with a friend of mine who I’ve known for nearly 25 years. And what I think you’ll find fascinating about his story aside from the juicy details of this title and the cover art is this man’s sexual or even non-sexual journey over the years. But before we jump into this story today, I want to use this opportunity to spend a few minutes talking about my background, how I grew up in my story as well. And interestingly, whether we’re talking about mostly spiritually, financially, or sexually, we both took such different paths to become the men who we are today. Speaker 0 00:00:55 I think you’re going to find both of our stories, fascinating, interesting, and fun to listen to. So let me tie it all together. My friend, Sebastian and I met while completing our undergrad at UCLA, but I want to share a little bit about how I wound up there prior to living in Los Angeles. It was my senior year at UC Santa Barbara, and I had already spent one year living abroad in Venice on top of spending about two years, studying Italian before living abroad. I wasn’t ready to graduate because I was having so much fun. So I petitioned the UC system to allow me to extend my college education for one more quarter, while I transferred down to UCLA there, I would take Japanese Italian conversation, modern dance and jazz, and to my luck and surprise, I wound up with Italian roommates as well. This allowed me to keep practicing the language, to be social with Italians and to keep the Italian language at the forefront of my mind. Now I had studied philosophy, ethics, public policy, art history, and Italian in Italian and in Italy, and also had to give my final exams orally in Italian. For those of you who don’t know is a very different system there, you don’t get an, a, B, C, or D. You get a zero to 30 or three. <inaudible> like 30 and high marks. You get this grade by sitting in front of your teacher’s desk and conversing with her, impressing her with your knowledge. And if everything works out the way it should, then you get your high marks. If not, you get lashings with the back of the ruler and her forced to sit in a corner with a dunce cap on your head. No, I’m kidding about that part. So try to imagine speaking to your professor in a foreign language as best you can, while under pressure about philosophy, that’s been translated from German into Italian, which I’m translating into English and then back into Italian in my brain all while trying to maintain a calm, collected demeanor. Speaker 0 00:02:40 Well, let’s just say it was quite an interaction. Interestingly, once. And for another course, I can recall penning a 60 page paper, which I called multiple entendres or the OPO sense on Italian, which thoroughly chronicled several of my erotic adventures thus far set in Venice, Italy, needless to say, I was able to pull <inaudible> or a pluses on all of my oral and written exams whilst in Italy, humble brag. So fast forward a couple of years, I turned 21 in Venice, Italy, I’m 22 and a senior now about to graduate. And while I’m looking for a place to live at UCLA, I somehow come across two Italian roommates. One of which turns out to be cross-dresser and later came out as being gay and the other was depressed. A good percentage of the time we were there. It was my first experience with someone who took pills for depression. Speaker 0 00:03:28 But for me at that time in my life, it was a pretty golden era. I was set to graduate with high honors, partially due to the great grades I pulled in Italy, but I wasn’t ready to leave yet. I was in love with academia in a sense, it felt like a dream because when you’re at university, there’s almost always pressure to go home and study or to write a paper or to get something done for a class. But because most of my load was movement dance, a language that I already spoke in a curiosity about taking Japanese level one, it was such a special time for me because it didn’t require so much energy focused, staying up late for final exams and other hard work. And Sebastian, you might be able to chime in here. My lifestyle was in a dance class, practicing Italian, or working out at the gym. Speaker 1 00:04:11 I do actually remember, well, the data we met, it was at the Jimmy, right? And somehow you spotted me from across the room and you came over directly and introduce yourself. And, um, I feel like I had so much in common with you. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:04:26 Yeah. I felt the same. You didn’t have that typical bro. Look, you know, the one where you have to pull your socks up to your knees, you have a goatee that’s four inches long and a backwards hat on your head and a size XXL t-shirt you on the other hand felt super approachable for me too. I love the way he dressed. And interestingly enough, in terms of our height, body type and weight, it was almost as if we were twins Speaker 1 00:04:46 Being Italian and gay, I guess, helped too in the fashion department. Speaker 0 00:04:51 Yeah. I mean, can you think of a better combination on the planet for aesthetics? So I think I actually approached you initially because I saw that your legs were bigger than mine. And I wanted a little help in that department that might’ve been my opener to chat you up. Speaker 1 00:05:04 Uh, flattery, there always is the perfect opener for a conversation. And you did struck a chord, uh, resonated with me. But no, I think, uh, your smile was, uh, was, uh, what struck me and how friendly you were, you know, somebody you haven’t met before. And there was, uh, something that resonated a lot Speaker 0 00:05:23 For me. I always liked you as a person, interestingly though, at the same time, even though you and I got along so well, I always felt like you had this impenetrable wall up and it was weird because even though I couldn’t get through it, you were still friendly and respectful and cordial and educated. So I adored every time we spent time together and at the same time, I could sense that you weren’t letting anybody in. So during our first interaction at the gym, I felt like I had to encourage you a little bit to hang out with me. I think what I did was offer you a ride, is that right? It Speaker 1 00:05:58 Did go like that. And surprisingly, I did accept your offer for a ride home, knowing that possibly I could have ended up in the hands of a, of a rapist or a serial killer. And I guess I took my chance and it paid off. So thank you for not killing me that night. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 0 00:06:12 Yeah. It was more than my pleasure. So we had so many things in common right away, obviously fitness and taking good care of ourselves. He is Italian. And so I learned to speak Italian I’m half Italian, but no one in my family knows how to speak it. I think you must have been in the U S already for a little while. So how did a foreigner like yourself wind up at UCLA? Speaker 1 00:06:32 I had this fantasy about living one day in California, in Los Angeles when I started watching Baywatch in high school and all of those people with no shirts on running day in, day, out on the beach for no reason. And it was always a sunset. Of course the cinematography was incredible. And I remember that day, I thought one day I will be in Los Angeles doing the same thing, running up and down the beach for no reason. And that I was okay. Speaker 0 00:06:57 Okay. So you were inspired to come out to California literally because of Baywatch and you got here, what? On a student visa? Speaker 1 00:07:04 Um, yeah. To start at UCLA. Speaker 0 00:07:06 Yeah. And they give you like five years or something. Speaker 1 00:07:08 They did give me five years. Yeah. That’s pretty. Speaker 0 00:07:12 Let me take a moment to mention here. And also at the end of the podcast that my friend Sebastian has an incredibly dry sense of humor. So what that means is, as you’re enjoying this episode, if you hear something that’s a little off color or politically incorrect, you’ve got to know that it’s done from a place of compassion on both of our parts. And that Sebastian has a really great heart. Nonetheless, almost from the very first day we met each other. Our dynamic together has been consistently the wit the sass, the sarcasm and this amazing playfulness of not being able to tell if either of us are joking or not good times. Good times. Yeah. So immediately we had this connection that I guess was loosely based on fashion, food, aesthetic, perfectionism language, sex, romance culture. Does that sound about right to you? Speaker 1 00:07:59 Yeah, it was incredibly pretentious the way we were interacting with each other, but it was incredibly fun too, because I was able to speak my language with somebody else. And I thought I was the only one left on earth. So I had found my tribe and I felt like there was a friendship there. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:08:17 Something I’ve always found fascinating about speaking a foreign language or sharing a language in common with a friend of yours is that you get this witty banter that comes out these jokes that you can make from these multi-lingual nuanced comments that are actually hilarious, but it feels like a secret language between the two of us. Speaker 1 00:08:34 I do remember sitting in nice restaurants and speaking our own language, which was a mix of Italian and English and everything in between. Nobody was able to understand what was going on except us. And, uh, again, he made us feel special. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:08:46 How long did we know each other in Santa Monica? It was about a year and we became sort of like gym buddies and friends and weekend, uh, Speaker 1 00:08:56 A little of everything we can spend driving on a convertible to exotic locations, Speaker 0 00:09:01 Malibu, Hollywood Hills, all that. The interesting thing is we both had the sense that we looked up to one another for similar reasons. The two of us haven’t spoken at length in possibly a decade. Correct. And so I feel like we both really have a sense of how the other person was during very formative years. Speaker 1 00:09:19 That is correct. I think, uh, we’ve seen each other grow and change and also how far we’ve come. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:09:27 So I think something we should jump into right off the bat, because after all this is an intimacy podcast is the story of your sexuality. You have such an unusual story. And I, and I think it has to be told. So let’s start by talking about how you grew up the kind of household you lived in the timing of how your sexuality ripened and how that affected you as you got older. If I remember right, you grew up in a very, very strict and religious household, is that right? Speaker 1 00:09:53 A very religious one, indeed. Yeah. Um, a household where being gay was not an option per se, as it was considered like a moral defect, something, nothing the prayer or meditation, or God would wouldn’t fix or take away Speaker 0 00:10:08 And to be clear, they felt that homosexuality or your sexuality was a choice. And so therefore this was a flaw that anyone who identified that way needed to fix, Speaker 1 00:10:18 Correct. Yeah. A defect of character that, or living a life of sin that will say, yeah. Speaker 0 00:10:24 And in your religion, it’s still like this today. That is correct. Yeah. Was your family heavily involved in the church? Speaker 1 00:10:31 They were, my father was one of the local elders. And so everybody in the family was expected to be exemplary in their behavior. Okay. Speaker 0 00:10:39 For many kids early on, they have this sense that they’re either attracted to one gender or another. But when you were younger, did you actually feel any sexual attraction to other boys or girls? Speaker 1 00:10:50 I must’ve sublimated that at an early age. I do remember being very asexual in elementary school, middle school, high school. Uh, women didn’t do much for me as well as boys. So I didn’t really know what was my calling in that regard. Speaker 0 00:11:05 So then did you realize that the time that you were in fact a sexual and did it occur to you that you were that way? Speaker 1 00:11:12 Uh, no. Really. Since nobody was explaining that to me or had somebody I could relate to or talk to about these things, because of course, all of my allowed friends who are a part of the church and, uh, anything I said about sex or anything really there was beyond, uh, the aloud was being reported directly to the elders in the church. And it would have gotten into trouble. Yes. Speaker 0 00:11:36 And that was during what age period for you? Speaker 1 00:11:38 From elementary to middle school? I do remember days in middle school when I was bullied all day long and be called gay and fag names like that. And I would come home and not be able to relay any of that information to anyone, because again, it wasn’t a problem. Right. Gay doesn’t exist. And if people make fun of you, you have to be above that. Speaker 0 00:11:59 I went through a lot of this myself. So did you understand at the time what they meant by those names or what they were intimating? Speaker 1 00:12:06 I must have internalized homophobia at a very early age because I didn’t identify with being gay or the names they were calling me. They were yelling at me this name and I thought, I don’t want to be that. I didn’t even know what gay meant. I just knew I wanted to have no part in it. Right. Speaker 0 00:12:23 Because of how hostile they seemed. Speaker 1 00:12:27 Yeah. It seemed like being gay was not a very popular choice in high school. And I think I chose the path of least resistance. Speaker 0 00:12:36 Yeah. Yeah. I had a very similar experience to you and I probably was being made fun of at the exact same time on the other side of the planet, just nine hours earlier for being gay. And I remember kids calling me fag all the time and I was telling you the same thing earlier. I had no idea what it meant, but all I knew was I better not be that because the way they snapped it at you made it sound like it was something atrocious. But then when I actually found out what homosexuality is, what gay meant, what the word fag was implying. I remember thinking, why are they yelling this at me? And why are they so angry about it? It made no sense to me. Why is someone caring about in fifth or sixth grade? Like whether a guy likes a guy or whether he likes a girl. So I can totally relate because it had the same confusing effect for me all the way through high school and not even being confused about my own sexuality in my case, but being confused about what the hatred and anger was about. Speaker 1 00:13:27 Yeah. I can just imagine how a child must go through being bullied for something they are or where they come from. And it’s just not right. Because at that point, the child has no protection or defenses I can stand. Speaker 0 00:13:40 Right. So do you feel then that you were from very early on walled up or did you have a sense that you were either shy or timid or closed off or maybe a little defensive? Speaker 1 00:13:51 Yeah, I must have started around six year olds when I started school. I realized that a lot of the things that I was told in the household were not true, such as, uh, about God and religion and what you’re supposed to do and not, and how everybody outside of that particular religion, they’re from the devil and the bad and the dangerous. And then the first day of school, I saw them and I said, Oh, these are nice people. They’re just like me. If anything, they have a cakes for whenever they have a birthday and a presence and they seem to have fun. So I knew something was wrong. And I was smart enough to pick up the bullshit that I had been fed day after day since they was seen in the womb since in the womb of my mother, probably three times a week. Speaker 0 00:14:35 Yeah. And twice on Sunday. Is that okay to ask about your relationship with your parents and how you get along with them now? Speaker 1 00:14:42 Very loving and caring people really back then, I guess they did what they thought was best for me in my own interest. So I can’t really blame them for trying, or Speaker 0 00:14:52 You do talk to them much now or Speaker 1 00:14:54 Now. And then, uh, we have a bit of a former relationship, but we talk and we share and it’s all good. Speaker 0 00:15:02 Okay. So that gets us through childhood and middle school. When it came to high school, were there any changes and then bring us around to where we met in Los Angeles. Speaker 1 00:15:12 So I arrived to Los Angeles full of expectations because of course my ideal, you know, of how people live in LA or in the U S for that matter was an episode of Beverly Hills nine zero two, you know, whatever, or one of those silly, you know, I think the reality was that I really liked living in Los Angeles and the, the, the college experience. And, uh, I decided back then that this is where I want to live. I don’t care for being back in Europe for that matter. So there was a long term commitment that I realized a few years later. Okay. Speaker 0 00:15:45 Okay. But what was calling you out to the U S was distinctly not sexual you, weren’t trying to go meet someone you weren’t hoping to meet other men and women out there. This was something other, it was something different like sunsets or the idea of happiness that was packaged a little bit differently for you. Speaker 1 00:16:03 Uh, I laugh now, but back in college, I still had no idea what my sexuality was or was supposed to be or how I could have expressed it. So there was completely unknown asexuality of some form. Right. Speaker 0 00:16:15 Yeah. I want to ask you about that a little bit more. So your sexuality was totally unknown. Did you actually know that it was unknown for instance, did you just think to yourself back then you were undecided and you didn’t know what you wanted or was the idea of attraction to any other human being just completely out of your hemisphere. And were you aware that sexuality existed or were you just oblivious to it? All? Speaker 1 00:16:37 I now realize that censorship and, uh, uh, the unconscious is an incredibly powerful section of your mind when things don’t disappear, they’re just not accessible. And clearly there was a lot of many things that hadn’t processed, but it was still there down there in a frozen dark place. Speaker 0 00:16:57 Hmm. You’ve jokingly said before that, when I approached you, you felt safe with me, but you’ve always had this concern that someone was hitting on you or that they wanted to take something from you. So it sounds like you did have awareness of something, some form of sexuality. Speaker 1 00:17:14 I believe there might’ve been too, uh, my mistrust of people in general, especially adults since an early age, I realized that not everything the adults say is the truth. Yeah. They’re not to be trusted to trust my own instincts in what I believe was the truth. I guess I wasn’t giving trust to people until I felt safe at some point. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:17:37 Yeah. So it sounds like until you’re in your twenties, sexuality had no bearing on you whatsoever. It didn’t play on you. It didn’t affect you. You weren’t really repressed by it. It just kind of didn’t exist for you. Does that sound about right? Yeah, Speaker 1 00:17:50 I didn’t resonate much. And I thought it was just in the way of getting things done, like friends and travel relationships. And I would engage with girls and boys interchangeably. I would remove the sexual component as a way to make it safe and neutral for what I was able to, uh, bear back then. Okay. Speaker 0 00:18:10 Yeah. You mentioned earlier to me that you didn’t have a ton of validation from girls or boys telling you you’re so pretty, you’re so handsome or so beautiful or what a beautiful figure or a body that it came more in the form of being book smart or intelligent or eloquent. I want to ask you then when you were in college and you came to UCLA, did you have, did you not have American guys or girls overtly hitting on you? Because sometimes when guys are the most oblivious, I E are also gay women have no problem throwing themselves at you or suggesting you go home together. Did you ever experience anything like that Speaker 1 00:18:45 Is, is exactly what happened? I would start seeing girls approaching and engaging and asking now to go have a date or a drink. And, uh, for me it was all new, but exciting and enticing because now somebody is paying attention to your attention. Yeah. You see, when I was a, a child, I do remember I was, uh, taking space, you know, at the dining table or in the car, but I don’t remember. I met her. I don’t remember people engage with me a in a way that made me feel like I mattered. So suddenly I’m here in Los Angeles and there’s people that noticing and paying attention and they’re engaging. And that was all new to me. But at the same time, it was very exciting. Speaker 0 00:19:28 I’m sorry to hear that beginning part. Did you have a sense before that you didn’t matter? Speaker 1 00:19:32 Um, like most things that were uncomfortable, they were relegating a side of my brain where they wouldn’t hurt or would just disrupt. So come on. Speaker 0 00:19:43 So it occurred to you when you started getting attention from women that suddenly I am a sexual being. Right. Speaker 1 00:19:50 And it was a revelation. Did Speaker 0 00:19:52 You have your first sexual experiences around the time that I knew you? Uh, I did not. So what would happen if you went out with these girls or they talk to you or they leaned it like, Speaker 1 00:20:01 Uh, by the time they’ll put the hand on my pants, I would call it a night and said I had a headache or something or an exam the next day and just go home. Speaker 0 00:20:10 Were you scared or nervous about anything? Oh, it wasn’t Speaker 1 00:20:13 Scared is just that I didn’t care for that at Speaker 0 00:20:16 All. What was it that you didn’t like about it? Speaker 1 00:20:18 Um, it was something that I never experienced before and I needed time to process and, you know, and a college, half drunk girl, maybe it’d be too aggressive. Speaker 0 00:20:28 Right. Would you say that these experiences, they were just a couple or numerous, numerous, you suddenly, finally felt like you were getting attention from women Speaker 1 00:20:38 And man, like I remember the leering and the looks and it was equally enticing and flattering to be from both sides. Guys Speaker 0 00:20:48 Tend to be a lot more overt and obvious when it comes to staring. I don’t imagine it was much different back then, but were men more aggressive with you? Speaker 1 00:20:57 I may be. I may have given a vibe that I wasn’t interested in in, you know, that, uh, and I made clear, I said that from the very beginning, so that would have scared off a few people. Uh, but of course there’s always some cases that have been more adventurous and like to pursue. And, uh, they made the extra effort to become my friends and they were lovely and incredible friends and I still I’m in contact with them. So beautiful. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:21:24 When do you think you knew about sexuality? Speaker 1 00:21:27 Sexuality? When I was a, probably four year old and a stumbling to, uh, a science book anatomy. Okay. So I knew all of that. I just didn’t feel the emotional connection to it. Right. Speaker 0 00:21:39 When did this change, what was the pivotal moment or story that changed everything for you? Speaker 1 00:21:46 Uh, one day Miami on the beach and I was seeing all these boys walking up and down the beach, and I would notice that I was paying much more attention to them than to the girl I was dating. And then that same day I told her that I know I am gay and there was the end of the relationship. Speaker 0 00:22:04 Gosh. Okay. Well back it up a little bit. How did you start dating this girl and was their sexuality there? Speaker 1 00:22:09 There was, it was good. Um, it was an incredible experience. She was, he’s a very sweet girl. And I think we had a lot of, uh, wounds that at some point were the same. So we saw a lot of each other in the relationship. How old are you? Must’ve been 23. Speaker 0 00:22:31 Oh, so this was around the time we knew each other. Yeah. How long then were you together with this first a new girlfriend? Speaker 1 00:22:38 About 10 years. Wow. So really grouped together in a sense. And we became more than just a lovers and friends. We became also, we had a business together. We were working, we were really helping and supporting each other, but at some point too, we became more like, um, brothers where the sexual part is not as relevant. Speaker 0 00:23:02 You met at 23 were together until you were about 33. And in the beginning you were sexual, you were sleeping together. Speaker 1 00:23:09 That is correct. Yes. Was she your first? She was my first. Speaker 0 00:23:14 So the catalyst that actually helped you realize you were gay was kind of this singular event, noticing these men on the beach, noticing that you were having a physical response or an attraction to them, but prior to this, for the better part of 10 years, you were in an actual full-fledged relationship with a woman, Speaker 1 00:23:31 You know what they say? You start desiring what you see. Right. And I’m seeing all these beautiful boys. I understood that the moment that that’s what I wanted, this where I belonged, I felt like it was my obligation to a relationship with my girlfriend. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:23:48 So you were with a woman for most 10 years, and it wasn’t until you were in your early thirties that you actually knew, which is just really unbelievable. I mean, if you try to imagine for anybody who’s listening, coming to terms with your sexuality or knowing what you like, not when you’re not a lesson, not in your teens, not in your twenties, but in your actual thirties before it happens. It’s incredible. Speaker 1 00:24:10 That is correct. Yes. And they came to me in one day and, uh, the same day I took action to tell her, and also at the same time, there’s a lot of, uh, guilt and shame that comes to it because you feel like it’s your fault for being gay, right? Like you didn’t talk to him a child because now I’m making another person uncomfortable and miserable. And I feel like it’s my responsibility. That what was going on in my mind, like then now I know better. I was very, very lucky to be with a person who not only, she was a very sweet one, but also incredibly understanding of the issue. And we were able to be friends down to this day. Speaker 0 00:24:52 Right. Very good. The reason I’ve wanted to take a considerable amount of time to explore your early life with you is because you then went on to live such an extraordinary, unusual, unbelievable mind-bending life afterwards. And I think the contrast is very interesting and we don’t often get to hear this kind of a story. We know that many people who identify as gay or straight for that matter, know this very early on in life. We also know that people know early on that they might be gay, but they’ve kept it secret. Then they get married and then they can’t handle it anymore. And they reveal it to their partner and make a lifestyle change then. But for you where most of your adult life sexuality just wasn’t even on the table or it was repressed, or you had no sense of what you wanted until you were in your early thirties, that’s both tragic and unusual. And of course, very fascinating. Speaker 1 00:25:48 I believe it’s my understanding that the trauma, when I was six, seven was so big that I decided my psyche decided to split and just very a side of me in a place where I had no access and just not have to deal with it. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:26:03 Yeah. And that’s such a horrific part about being a human is that if you happen to be unlucky enough, to have trauma, and we all do that, we don’t process it correctly. We don’t have the tools or resources to handle it. And so it just goes somewhere else to either play itself out in a really ugly way later, or we do the work and we try to process it the best way we can. Speaker 1 00:26:24 I was denied my humanity, the ability to be myself as I was in it. So all the facts and, uh, other characters Speaker 0 00:26:35 You were, let’s try to bridge the gap now between this person who you were and getting into sex, work, you from being a very private and secluded person who didn’t share a lot about your emotions and how you feel Speaker 1 00:26:50 To being sort of the opposite where I had no boundaries. All of a sudden I was started as a temporary job to get some extra cash turned out, to be an incredible experience that told me so much about myself. I learned how to be comfortable in my own skin, how to live my sexuality as it was, because I was surrounded by people that were applaud in that instead of frown upon any deviation of what’s supposed to be the standard of human sexuality, Speaker 0 00:27:19 What type of work exactly did you get into then? And how did you go from bringing a 10 year relationship with a woman to a close to exploring this unbridled side of sex work? Did someone else turn you onto it? Did you stumble into it? Did you try to seek it out? How did you decide that you even wanted to make money doing it? Speaker 1 00:27:40 He started as an easy way to make money in a city like New York when, uh, it’s notoriously hard to make it later on and realize that it was something I actually liked. I liked to engage it with people. I liked the intimacy, the physical contact, the relationship that you have with people that are just looking for a human warmth and companionship, and yes, even sexuality, people that are in the same position as you are, they have wounds and they have a horrible past and through it, all they find in the sexual act, a form of a being themselves and a peace and nobody’s judging them. Speaker 0 00:28:24 So how did you set yourself up for some sort of exchange or compensation? In other words, it’s one thing to pick a guy off the street and bed him, but it’s another to make it an exchange. Um, Speaker 1 00:28:36 I was bougie already back then. I didn’t go on the street. They would reach out to me. And since early on, I had a very specific screening system to see who was calling. And then I would ask specific questions to see how they would match what I had in mind. So if I felt like it was too much work and not enough money, or if it was going to be trouble or danger, then I had a way to screen that when I decided to take on a client, I made a background checks. I would do that on the name, phone number, see if they matched or not. So I knew who I was meeting before I even showed up at the door and maybe it was a CEO, maybe it was a big company. Um, um, somebody worked in finance, old people that have normal jobs like we do. There were no weird people. They were not perverts. They were regular people. And, uh, there was a comfort to be able to interact with these amazing people in a, in a human level that maybe they haven’t done it with somebody, uh, ever before in their life. Speaker 0 00:29:43 And how did you make yourself, uh, find-able for these escort type services Speaker 1 00:29:48 Through carefully placed ads online. Okay. But then soon enough, I discovered that there was this thing called regulars, which is people that like you so much, that they want you to come back and spend time with you. And very often it wasn’t even sexual. It was about companionship. And it was about being in the presence of another man and feel the human touch and talk about life and whatever was going on in their lives. Speaker 0 00:30:16 I think you said you wouldn’t wind up dead in public with the clients. So Speaker 1 00:30:19 If they wanted dinner had to be in a hotel in the room, et cetera. Speaker 0 00:30:23 And where did this rule of not being seen in public? Come from? Speaker 1 00:30:28 I made my rules is I, you know, she went on of course and, uh, I guess, uh, learn by mistakes, what was working and what wasn’t. And I realized they know good screening and, uh, being direct and honest and, uh, appeal more to the human level. Instead of just to the raw sexuality. It’s a winning approach, Speaker 0 00:30:50 Safe to say, you’ve had a considerable amount of sexual experience over your life, which I think makes you the perfect person to talk to about how to actually turn a man on, which I think will be very interesting to both our male and female listeners. Would you care to illuminate us? Speaker 1 00:31:05 Well, normally we find that remark very offensive if I wasn’t the whole actually. So, so you will say yes. Speaker 0 00:31:11 Okay. Maybe we can start with finding out if you have a certain technique that you use to read your partner or know what they’re going to like or want from you when they meet, you Speaker 1 00:31:21 See the misconception about men and sexuality is that they want to be dominant on top and controlling and have everything under control, including the position they place. And when to start, when to finish, the reality is that are a lot of them want to just sit and relax and have a good time and have somebody else take care of them. Like any woman knows how to that’s right. That’s right. Speaker 0 00:31:47 Yeah. I think most people desire this opportunity to relax and have someone take care of them, especially people who are in high powered positions work a stressful job, or need to tell a lot of people what to do, regardless of whether you’re a man or woman. I often see people do not want to have to think or make decisions. And then it plays itself out of course, with different levels of intensity, whether it’s bondage and BDSM, or just having their partners seducing and loving them. Speaker 1 00:32:12 I came to understand that the more responsibility and stress and yelling that had to do throughout the week, or how many people that to fire that week, the more they become calm and relaxed and very sweet. And they just want to not be in control of much and we’re back. So you sound good on the mic. Thank you, Tony. When I hear the feedback on my voice, I like it, right? Yeah. I like it too. Does it give you a sense of power to be able to your lights with your voice? No. Speaker 0 00:32:41 I just enjoy that set studio to 100. Speaker 1 00:32:43 You seem to enjoy doing that very much. It pleases me. We were talking about how to please a man and how the heterosexual stereotype. Sometimes doesn’t apply to the gay model where it’s a bit more flexible on one hand and on the other is incredibly strict. There’s a hierarchy in the male gay community. There not many people know about, Speaker 0 00:33:06 Which is exactly why I am so happy. You’re here. Can you define for us what this hierarchy is and what this sexual model is so that our listeners have a good idea of what you mean? Speaker 1 00:33:17 I have a feeling that we enjoyed that, um, it’s the common knowledge that the man has to be. The one that takes the initiative in asking out the girl and picking the place and pay for the dinner and all of that, which sounds like a lot of unnecessary work, but I’m not here to judge. I’m just saying the expectation is the one that demand has to be the one that’s assertive taken initiative and, uh, so on and so forth. Even in the bedroom, whereas four, a two men interacting in a sexual way. It’s much easier. It’s just about reading the other person’s, uh, body, I guess, and see how they react and just go with it. And, uh, the two people can interchange the dominant position and change. We will call the flipping. Speaker 0 00:34:09 So used correctly, that’s he flips? Speaker 1 00:34:12 Correct. Okay. Or I’m a bottom, but I can flip. And, um, even though they never want to flip, I’m giving our secrets body. Shouldn’t the bottles never want to flip. They never want to flip people when they say the averse and they don’t mind flipping they’re aligned to your face in the same as a girl would say, Oh yeah, sure. I would like to go with you or your parents, whatever wedding this weekend Speaker 0 00:34:35 In the gay community. Is it mandatory to either be dominant or submissive? Speaker 1 00:34:39 It’s just like absolutely necessary. If you want to have a social life, see gay people are structured in a very rigid hierarchy where you have the alpha males on top, and then you have the beta ones pretty much like a pack of dogs. And within that, as a sub cultures, you have the bears, the Twinkies, and then you have the leather and the fetish and the perverts and the pigs. And then you have the others. And the, I can think of many more, but there’s a lot of variety. And at some point you will find your clan where you belong and you’ll tend to associate with those people. But also when you are out and searching for a mate sexually, you identify immediately with the tribe you belong to. It saves a lot of time from both sides. Speaker 0 00:35:25 So indulge us. What is a pear, a Twinkie, a pig. Speaker 1 00:35:30 That’s the thing. Twinkies don’t pair together sexually a Twinkie will go looking for a daddy. Okay. Oh, look, the hair is two people. Not as in Speaker 0 00:35:38 The fruit. Well, they’ll fruits as I’m so worried about the, Speaker 1 00:35:42 There’s also a figure that is universally accepted as the, you know, like with the blood donations, you know, there’s one kind that’s universal and goes on everybody. That will be the daddy. Okay. Everybody’s that his issues. That’s why they’re gay. Oh, right, right. You know, emotionally unavailable father, a father was emasculated by a very powerful mother. Those are all family dynamics that create a lot of gay people. The goal in life is the one to find that authority figure that daddy figure that takes care of you emotionally, maybe also financially. Speaker 0 00:36:17 Do you think they’re more bottoms and tops by a large number? Speaker 1 00:36:20 Um, try not to make a joke here, but I would say yes, Speaker 0 00:36:24 Like a parade of distribution or the 80 20 principle, Speaker 1 00:36:27 Uh, very close. And also they’re much more sexually active and aggressive in their hunting. Speaker 0 00:36:34 The tops, the bottoms, the bottoms are words Speaker 1 00:36:36 That surprisingly see the tops. No, they have choices. No, they are a minority. No, they are in high requests and they know that they can have what they want whenever they want bottoms have much more competition. So they have to hunt for it. Okay. And it can be very aggressive when they set their eyes on something Speaker 0 00:36:53 Bottoms up. So even though they’re submissive, they’re very aggressive. That’s it? Speaker 1 00:36:58 There’s a power dynamic here. There’s a very interesting book called codependent. No more where explains this kind of dynamic where the real power in a Dom sub relationship is always the sub person who has the real control. It’s not the daddy that has the power is the house. Boy. There manages everything in the house in the same way, a lot of power couples. Whereas the husband will be the face of the household. The wife is actually the one that leads and takes the decisions for the whole family. Speaker 0 00:37:31 For someone who can knows how to or enjoys flipping, what do you think their true nature is? Or is it different for everybody? Speaker 1 00:37:39 It’s a very personal experience. And it goes with the chemistry of the person that’s in front of you. Speaker 0 00:37:45 This probably ties into the way you’re able to read people when you are close to them. Tell us a little more about that. Speaker 1 00:37:51 Um, I do remember days when the client would walk in and all I needed to do in order to understand what were the needs of the person was to just give him a hug and feel the feedback that I got from his body tension, relaxed or whatever that was. And that was enough for me to understand if it was more dominant or assertive or a submissive, or he just wanted a bit of a loving affection or Speaker 0 00:38:17 Something else. Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve ever articulated that to someone else, but hearing you share it with me, cued me into the fact that I do the same thing with a hug. It tells you so much, are their shoulders tight? Do they Pat you on the back? Like they’re burping a baby. Are they tense in their neck and arms, whether there’s eye contact or not, whether they melt into you and they give you a hug, whether there’s space for intimacy right away, or they need a little more space and distance. And it’s actually quite a fascinating thing for anyone to tap into who has the ability to learn, to read someone through touch through a hug, through connection. And what’s so beautiful about a hug is it’s very, non-threatening, it’s safe, it’s comfortable. It’s such a very gentle way of connecting it’s benign. And yet you can tell them most everything you need to know from one, Speaker 1 00:39:03 It’s an incredibly powerful tool that if used correctly can really help you read. So understand who is in front of you. Speaker 0 00:39:12 So if I understand correctly, your process goes something like this, you meet someone new and you give them a hug or a warm embrace to feel into who they are, what their needs are, what they want from you. Speaker 1 00:39:23 No, sometimes was the opposite of what he requested or said he was. Speaker 0 00:39:28 And this would inform how dominant or submissive you would then be with the interaction. Speaker 1 00:39:32 Well, being a very versatile person, I would say, and being there I was performing and working. I was on the clock. So I was supposed to perform, right. That’s what your mindset is at the moment. Or you want to please, or make sure that a person is having a good time. And that also translates in me reacting a certain way. So if I feel like the other person will be more submissive, I would automatically go in that dominant modes where I take the lead and I decide and everything. And I’m in control. Speaker 0 00:40:04 Do you think that performing is about pleasing the other person and making sure they have a good time Speaker 1 00:40:09 Part of it? I believe there’s also second aspect, which is, uh, about, uh, do something that makes you feel good when you see that a sparkle in their eyes. When you see that they are sexually pleased, then they finally got the one touch that it never had in their life because they may be, have a wife and family and responsibilities, but they, they made the decision to not to pursue well, they know they are, it fills your heart with majority. Yes. Speaker 0 00:40:39 You talk a little bit like someone who’s a people pleaser. Speaker 1 00:40:43 I drew, I am a people pleaser been raised in a household where the emotional aspect wasn’t really addressed something called child. Emotional neglect syndrome may appear, which is a situation where the emotional needs of the child are not addressed and usually results in a weak boundaries, in a lack of trust. And in being a people pleaser and a perfectionist. And all of that goes well with, uh, being a sex worker because you live for the joy of pleasing the other person and give them what they need. Do you feel like you get what you need? It’s an incredible satisfaction and validation to be hired for what I did. It’s, uh, an immediate gratification, a very selfish one, indeed. But at the same time, when you see the good you do and how well they respond, when you connect with them on a human level, then it makes my day all better. Because I know then now with the, without the money, I would have enjoyed that experience. Anyway. Speaker 0 00:41:47 Can you define for us what your working definition of sex is during three different chapters of your life? What it was for you say until you were age 23, who would it became for you in your thirties and what it is for you now in your forties? Speaker 1 00:42:02 I’ve come to realize that I have an addictive personality and that usually comes out in two different ways. One is a, an addiction or a search for pleasure. And the other one is for power being the first, I think I pursued my whole life, the most ultimate exquisite, impossible to get pleasures, you know, the exclusive vacations and the best clothes. And we shared a lot of that in our common paths. We only would hang out with the best restaurants. And if that food wasn’t perfect, the one bite wasn’t perfect, we would be so disappointed. You know, it’s a very Epicurean way of seeing the world. And I pursued that since I was a child. Looking back. I remember when I started masturbating at 11, it was the only time I was by myself in the tub without supervision. I got addicted to orgasm. There was my way of, uh, enjoying something that felt good. Sure. And that’s where everything started. Right. Speaker 0 00:43:06 You know, I had a guy come by who was purchasing something from me on offer up. It was picking up a sofa for a lady friend of his, and he was very overtly gay. And as he was just talking very casually about sex, he would say, you know, sex is just a handshake. In fact, he laid it out as his global Maxim. This is just how it is. It’s a handshake. So this man’s working definition of sex is this is just a different way to say hello, does that resonate with you? Or is there an emotional component to it? Um, Speaker 1 00:43:33 It does resonate with me that in certain parts, like let’s say hell’s kitchen in New York city, you know, quick fucking the back behind the dumpster can be just a way to say hi and you know, to friends. But, um, outside of the specific enclave of gay population, I would assume you have to be a bit more strict in what you define in how you define sex. So I would say if your Dick is out at any point, I would say that sex. Okay. Okay. Oh, and oral is sex too, by the way, bill Clinton taught us that. Speaker 0 00:44:09 Okay. Now when you have sex these days, years after all of the sex work, how do you experience sexuality and sex? Now? Speaker 1 00:44:18 I think sex, like everything else in our, this part of our life, like our beliefs, they grow with you and they change and they have to change is always growth. So of course I’m not interacting a sexual way with people. The way I did 10 years ago, Renna was a sex worker. When I was a teenager, I tend to connect more on a personal level and I’m more selective and I’m in the moment I enjoy what’s happening and I don’t need anything else outside of it always be looking for the next or the better experience that’s going to come after that. And I’ll see if I may add something. Now I can, um, still enjoy the attention that I can get from other men and decide not to act on it. And I think that’s a bit of growth, you know, it’s not just because somebody is throwing themselves at you, that you have to do something about it. You can just enjoy the flattery and respectfully decline and be a mature adult about it. Speaker 0 00:45:16 I would say that’s a pretty major form of growth because how do you even begin to realize or recognize that saying yes to an opportunity that you like, and you want to have, especially as a man is detrimental and when it comes to sex and enjoyment and pleasure seeking, and you’re having another and another and another, and it’s satisfying something for you, how did you come to realize that you don’t have to say yes to everything? Did that happen in a moment or over time? Speaker 1 00:45:42 On one hand, it comes from the, my past, as a sex worker. And at some point I was maybe exaggerating a bit in the variety and the quantity and in a time that I spent in enjoying interacting with other men or get to know them, you know, in a biblical sense. But the point is, is, um, the point is, I don’t know. Speaker 0 00:46:07 Oh no, that it was his growth that you’re able to say no. So even though sex is available to you now, it’s there, you can take it in a moment, your ability to say no. Did that hit you in an aha kind of moment? Or is this something you’ve been working on over time that you don’t have to say yes to, Speaker 1 00:46:28 Uh, when you start a journey of, um, introspection and soul searching and trying to end betterment be a better person and a better, uh, partner and member of the society, you realize that you don’t have to react to everything that’s around you just because it’s there. So even though I used to react like that, you know, every boy that I didn’t put my hands on was, you know, a last one now it’s just a way to gauge my loss. It, again, it must be something that really cared about because when the brain is interfering like that, it’s messing me up. It means that, um, Speaker 0 00:47:03 You were saying you don’t have to sleep with everyone. Speaker 1 00:47:05 Well, I don’t think we might decay. And right now my brain growth, I’m not like 40 something. So yeah, Speaker 0 00:47:12 I think that there’s a component of that that has to do with maturity as well. Like just being in your forties, it’s like something clicks over where you can just take a breath and not have to avail yourself of everything that comes your way. All right. Here’s a silly question. You know, I think women who do sex work probably don’t want to be referred to as hoes or horrors know, you sort of use it in an endearing or playful joking way. Can anybody call anybody a ho or is the person who is being the ho the only one who can own it because they’re the ones who are doing it. Speaker 1 00:47:40 You can, if you are one, you can, then you are entitled to use the words. It’s a way to add a bit of levity to the situation and the dramatize. Speaker 0 00:47:49 But if someone referred to you as a ho or an ex ho would that be offensive Speaker 1 00:47:54 Coming from another whole Rexel will be, uh, a term of endearment. Oh, absolutely. Right. Speaker 0 00:48:00 But coming from anyone else, it’d be offensive. Incredibly offensive. Okay. Interesting. Good. Did you want to say anything else about tapping into unexpressed parts of sexual desires in your clientele? Things that they may not have been able to get into before, due to shame homophobia or kinks that they weren’t aware of? Speaker 1 00:48:18 Yeah. We always underestimate the power of internalized homophobia and how that can really sabotage our own life in terms of happiness, but also having a healthy sexual life and sometimes body language doesn’t lie. Right? So, uh, you can really get feedback from touching them or putting, getting close to them. Speaker 0 00:48:38 What is internalized homophobia for our listeners? Speaker 1 00:48:41 I would say it’s a set of rules in terms of moral and what’s right and wrong that we learned as children from school, society, TV, parents, uh, religion. And whether you agree with them or not, they become part of you of your heritage as long along with the cultural, you know, rules and all of that, and the morals. And, uh, as an adult, you have the responsibility to go back and screen through all of those rules and morals. And the sidewalk still is part of you and what you never was, uh, if you happen to be okay, you may want to, at some point, let go of the homophobia, which is the idea that gaze bad, no matter what God doesn’t like gay people and my family doesn’t like them and et cetera, et cetera. So it’s a way to detach or disconnect the shame and guilt from the act itself. Speaker 0 00:49:36 Okay. And do you feel like you were able to get other men or clients to tap into their primal needs and kink relatively easy? Do you feel like that’s a skill set of yours? Speaker 1 00:49:46 Unfortunately, yes. I really enjoyed back then every version and nuance of a sexual interaction with other men. And it was a way for me to learn and to give or to teach sometimes. And it’s done in a very playful way. You see men interact in a very primal way of being like you would see animals in the wild, right? When you have always the dominant person that takes control, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and it’s fascinating being able to that, to be part of that process. Speaker 0 00:50:21 Do you see the straight world as being a lot of, uh, you know, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but a lot of, a lot of extra, a lot of dancing around and beating around the proverbial Bush, things that have to happen before you can get to the point or access that primal aspect. If they can even get there at all. Speaker 1 00:50:39 It seems to me like it’s a lot of extra work that’s unnecessary and it could be easily streamlined by being a director at the very beginning. Not necessarily even at the initial meeting, even from the chatting on the app, being about who you really are and what you want and what you’re looking for, instead of sending your best 10 Instagram photos, they’ve been heavily retouched and then create this persona. Uh, I like long walks on the beach. Sure. You know, we all know that we’re here because you’re looking for Dick. So be honest. And I’ll be honest with you and I’ll tell you if that matches what I’m looking Speaker 0 00:51:18 Course. And what might you say to a woman who says, no, no, I want so much more than that. I need walks on the beach, emotional connection. Speaker 1 00:51:24 I would say, you know, you can’t really bullshit a bullshitter, so I can see through that. And I wouldn’t really be able to interact with that person. Speaker 0 00:51:35 Gotcha. So what’s your favorite kind of man to interact with his energy? His countenance, his lifestyle class. Speaker 1 00:51:43 It’s the sexy man who doesn’t know he is. And the still hasn’t found that power and he doesn’t know how to, he doesn’t know he has it let alone how to control it. And he’s incredibly refreshing to interact with these people. They’re still in the sentence. Sweet and sexy. And they treat you like one up here. They don’t have any feeling of, uh, being better just because they have a bigger, a better body or just because they incredibly handsome. Speaker 0 00:52:17 That’s beautiful. Do you find that that kind of man falls into any category in terms of lifestyle or preference or age? Speaker 1 00:52:24 They just, I can be a 20 year old, 30, 40, 50 for me, the most amazing sexual experiences I’ve had were with people that I don’t really remember faces of bodies or names or everything, but, um, uh, the farthest from what I think is my ideal of sexy men. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:52:44 Yeah. That’s really interesting. You’re captivated by that innocence and it doesn’t really matter how they look. Okay. So then what do you think the most difficult man to interact with is, um, Speaker 1 00:52:59 I’m trying not to be disrespectful here, but I will say greedy bottoms Speaker 0 00:53:07 And, uh, who is the greedy bottom? Exactly. Speaker 1 00:53:10 Um, it’s a forming the, you know, kaleidoscope of gay men out there that has a very high sex drive. They enjoy being treated now very nicely. Let’s say, in the bedroom and to compensate for feelings of, uh, inadequacy, I would say maybe. Speaker 0 00:53:31 And what does it mean to you? Exactly. If a bottom or a greedy bottom is emotionally constipated Speaker 1 00:53:38 Constipated, man. And this is a real thing is a person who is, uh, not able to access his feelings and emotions. So, um, or you will not express any of that with words or anything. And all you have to do is guess those are the hardest clients, by the way, I will never see one a second time. Speaker 0 00:54:00 Okay. And what kind of hug does an emotionally constipated man have to offer? Speaker 1 00:54:05 He stands up there like a piece of goldfish. And you do all the work? Yes. Oh yeah. They’re very rigid. Um, physical intimacy, something they never managed. So it kind of sucks. You dry. Uh, it’s more like you can get a feedback and that, um, puts me off balance because I need constant feedback from my, the person I’m with to enjoy my own personal experience. So the more I see the pleasure in the rise or the Morrissey, the satisfaction, the more it makes me happy. And it makes me feel accomplished because then also sex for me was incredibly fulfilling. Right. Whereas the worst people I ever hooked up were those, uh, young models, tall, beautiful men, and they know they are and they expect to just lie there and, uh, be, has had everything done to them. And it’s just an incredible turn off. Speaker 0 00:55:03 Yeah. That actually goes both ways in the straight community as well. It’s interesting. The comments you made about the person who’s closed up wild up or stiff, do you find that afterwards they have mixed feelings about the experience with you? Speaker 1 00:55:15 I’ve had clients, you know, hugging me in the end and expressing the gratitude for what I did and maybe they would shed a tear or two. Right. And these can be people in the 70, 60, 20. It doesn’t matter very times. Unfortunately, people come to the realization that they’re gay very late in life when they already have a family, children, responsibilities work career. And, uh, we can’t really hold it against them if they decide to choose that instead of their own, you know, identity Speaker 0 00:55:46 Able to love all men sexually, or do you have, Speaker 1 00:55:53 I had the power? I don’t think I have it anymore. I have to have a very strong connection and a physical attraction. Speaker 0 00:56:03 Gotcha. But previously, how did you overcome that hurdle? Especially being male. And Speaker 1 00:56:10 It wasn’t a hurdle I saw through that. I saw it wasn’t their heart and what they wanted. And, uh, I just connected on the common grounds and build that from there. The way Speaker 0 00:56:21 You talk about sex work is as though it was a, like a strong desire for you to be involved in that way. Speaker 1 00:56:28 It was my calling. It was my perfect job. I was able to interact with people. I had fun. I was able to be myself, be comfortable in my own skin. I learned a lot about myself. I had all the validation that I wanted from these powerful men, sometimes beautiful men. And that’s a stroking your ego. And that’s addictive being, having an addictive personality. Of course it became something I needed. I needed a validation. I needed attention. I needed money. I needed sex and I needed drugs some later in the, and I needed all of that immediately. So it’s the addictive mind that, um, tricks you into thinking you need all of that and you need it immediately in order for you to feel good. Speaker 0 00:57:15 What are some of your biggest turn-ons and turn-offs for you personally sexually Speaker 1 00:57:20 Turn it on will be a good sexual chemistry. And again, it can happen with anybody when you least expect it has nothing to do with the physical appearance. They just don’t know, try, they belong to et cetera. And, um, what’s the second question. Speaker 0 00:57:35 What are some of your turnoffs? I think you, maybe we talked about that a little bit. Speaker 1 00:57:39 Yeah. Somebody who doesn’t engage, maybe because he doesn’t know what to do with those emotions. Uh, but uh, now getting feedback from my date is a big turnoff because then being a people pleaser, I get activated in the same way as the person in front of me. Gotcha. Speaker 0 00:57:56 Yeah. So then what would you say was the most addictive part of the work that you did? Speaker 1 00:58:02 Uh, the being worshiped, like you’re a gods you show up and they worship every inch of your body. Speaker 0 00:58:10 And how is that different from feeling attraction? This idea of being worshiped like a God, Speaker 1 00:58:14 They treat you like you are as some sort of Damie college. Like you have something special that other men don’t, and it’s what they want to, they want to incorporate a piece of you, whether it’s youth, a great body, a big deck, whatever they think in their fantasy. It’s, um, very, very primal. Again, incorporation of the other person’s quality into what you think may be your lost youth, your, uh, you know, your security on your own, uh, sexual attractiveness or Sonic support. Speaker 0 00:58:46 Yeah. Those are huge observations, especially the part of feeling like maybe youth has been lost. And so people seek that out in a partner and somehow they find that validating or reassuring that they’re still attractive to someone who’s maybe more attractive than them or younger. But for you, you’re saying that the most attractive part of this was feeling this kind of warship. Speaker 1 00:59:08 That is correct. Yes. Yeah. Wow. And, um, there went even beyond the know the money and all of that. Speaker 0 00:59:15 This kind of brings us around to the territory of addiction and drugs. Speaker 1 00:59:19 That’s correct. I guess common knowledge. There’s a lot of drugs when it comes to sex work or sex in general. And there’s some cities that have a culture of, uh, mixing drugs and sex for recreational use. And it’s called part in play in big cities like Berlin, London, you know, New York, they all have big communities that do that. Speaker 0 00:59:42 Take us through what the common ones are, how they’re used, how they’re mixed. So everyone listening can have a framework for this. No, Speaker 1 00:59:49 Do not, of course approve or want to glorify any in a form of drugs and sex mixed together. But back then, for me, it was revelation. I always put off trying any drugs because I knew I saw the effect that he had on people, how he slowly eroded their values and he led them to isolation. And to this, uh, being stuck in a circle when they are not able to pull themselves out of it at the same time, the tempta
Play Next