In today's episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, we are joined by Tommy Corey, aka Twerk, sometimes known as Twerkinthedirt, sometimes known as the guy behind Hiker Trash Vogue. Twerk gives us a runthrough on his experiences backpacking the PCT, how the Hiker Trash Vogue project came to be, what doors this wildly popular photo project has opened for him. We also talk about his experiences of what it's like to be a gay man in the thru-hiking community. We close out the show with a Triple Crown of Autumn Ahhhhs, talk about how much it costs to pee on Chaunce's face every morning for the rest of her life, a one minute gear review, and we try to determine how much money Chaunce can make by selling foot photos. [divider] Listen Download this episode. [divider] Gossamer Gear discount code: Use code: PoopStory for 15% off your entire cart at gossamergear.com. Backcountry discount code: Use code: Backpacker15 for 15% off your first purchase at backcountry.com/backpackerradio. Greenbelly discount code: Use code: Trek2020 for 10% off your first purchase at greenbelly.co How To Afford A Thru-Hike by Kelly Floro (use code "ipooped" to save $2!) [divider] 00:04:43 - Chaunce is back! 00:06:19 - QOTD: Non-traditional ways to track your mileage? 00:10:49 - Intro to Twerk! 00:11:01 - How did you get the trail name Twerk? 00:12:32 - How did you first get into backpacking? 00:14:19 - Did Chaunce and Twerk cross paths? 00:15:30 - Twerk’s first backpacking trip through the Three Sisters Loop 00:16:05 - Did that trip build excitement or anxiety for your attempted thru? 00:17:39 - Do you think the fact that being close to where you grew up made it easier to get off trail the first time? 00:20:10 - Did you want to rejoin your friends on trail? 00:21:04 - Did you experience the same level of hardship in 2018 as 2017? 00:26:10 - Would you do the PCT again? 00:30:00 - Zach shares a poop story! 00:31:34 - Twerk’s poop story! 00:34:30 - Can you tell us about your photography background? 00:36:24 - How did photography play into your 2017 hike? 00:37:28 - Do you think learning how to long-distance hike in 2017 helped you be able to work on Hiker Trash Vogue in 2018? 00:40:30 - How did you edit your photos on trail? 00:41:03 - What is Hiker Trash Vogue? 00:41:50 - Will you walk us through some of your favorite photos? 00:43:06 - Can you tell us some stories behind your photos? 00:45:47 - Do you have experience shooting high fashion/editorial photography? 00:47:01 - Was it difficult to get people to model? 00:49:04 - What is your pitch to get people to pose for Hiker Trash Vogue? 00:52”02 - Did you do any landscape photography along the way? 00:54:20 - How did you decide to evolve Hiker Trash Vogue? Can you talk about the books? 00:56:18 - Did you make your layouts in InDesign? 00:57:22 - How much does it cost to make a Hiker Trash Vogue book? 00:59:23 - Did the quality of the second book suffer because it was less of a passion project? 01:01:14 - Do you have limited runs of your books? 01:01:39 - Would you ever put your book on Amazon? 01:02:47 - What is your day-to-day like now? 01:03:45 - Have you gotten freelance work from your Hiker Trash Vogue series? 01:04:42 - Do people hit you up to do weddings? 01:05:39 - Is being a wedding photographer a coveted job or highly stressful? 01:07:17 - Where should people go if they want Twerk to shoot their wedding? 01:08:34 - Can you speak to what it’s like being a gay hiker? 01:10:23 - Was there anything in the Gummy Bear episode that you could elaborate on? Or things you want to expand on? 01:11:37 - Were you at all concerned about it leading up to your hike? 01:12:51 - What were relationships like on trail? 01:15:42 - Did you see many other LGBTQ hikers? 01:18:10 - Why Representation Matters 01:19:03 - Were there resources you used as a gay man before hiking that you think would help others? 01:26:12 - Any recommendations for diversifying your feed? @switchbackshawty @lassosafroworld @rongriswell 01:27:44 - What is your Instagram? @twerkinthedirt 01:27:56 - What’s coming up? What are you looking forward to? 01:31:16 - Anything you wanna plug? Tommycorey.com @twerkinthedirt How To Afford A Thru-Hike by Kelly Floro (use code "ipooped" to save $2!) The Triple Crown of Autumn Ahhhs Zach is having a baby (and rapid-fire questions from Chaunce)! Reddit Brain Busters 1 minute gear review: Chaunce: $5 Walmart Floaty Zach: Yeti Tundra Haul Mail Bag Five-Star Reviews Comment ______ to win a Backpacker Radio sticker! [divider] Subscribe to this podcast on iTunes (and please leave us a review)! Find us on Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support us on Patreon to get bonus content. A super big thank you to our Chuck Norris Award winner(s) from Patreon: Paul Packman Sealy, Jason Lawrence, Janelle L., Austen McDaniel, Andrew, Thomas Fullner, Christopher Marshburn, S11N, and Sawyer Products A big thank you to our Cinnamon Connection Champions from Patreon: Emily Brown, Jeffrey Miller, Mitchell, Zoe Jenkins, dcnerdlet, Jeff LaFranier, Mark Snook, Peter Ellenberg, Jacob Northrup, Peter Leven Follow The Trek, Chaunce, Badger, and Trail Correspondents on Instagram. Follow The Trek and Chaunce on YouTube. MEDIOCRE TRANSCRIPT In today's episode of backpacker radio presented by the Trek. We are joined by Tommy Corey, AKA twerk, sometimes known as Twerk in the dirt, sometimes known as the guy behind hiker trash Vogue to work. It gives us a run through on his experiences, backpacking the PCT, how hiker trash Vogue became a project. What doors this wildly popular photo series has opened for him and much more. We also talk about his experiences of what it's like to be a gay man in the thriving community. We close out the show with a triple crown of autumn ahhs. Talk about how much it costs to pee on Chauncey's face every morning for the rest of her life, a one minute gear review, and we try to determine how much money Charles can make by selling foot photos. Lastly quick aside in the Trek propaganda section of today's show, we introduce how to afford it through here. A new ebook from the Trek written by Kelly fluoro use coupon code. I pooped all lower case. One word to score eight, $2 discount on this book. Okay. Here are some ads. Today's show is brought to you by back country.com, a premier online specialty, retailer of outdoor gear and apparel, carrying thousands of brands and products for your everyday outdoor lifestyle back country's mission is to break down the barriers between humans and nature. Not only does that country have the widest assortment of gear and apparel, but the heart and soul of the company lies with their back country gear heads. These gear heads are former pro athletes, Olympians and all around experts that are available 24 seven by mail, email Kat for your one on one service product recommendations, and to ensure you have everything you need for your next outdoor adventure back country carries a ton of gear that both Johnson I used and love. A couple of examples include the Patagonia baggies. My go to short, the ultra lone peaks might go to trail runner. The ultra temps chances go to Trey winner. The big Agnes tiger wall. My favorite semi freestanding tents. And of course darn tough socks, which are beloved by hiker trash. Everywhere. You can save 15% off your first purchase back country.com by using coupon code backpacker 15 at checkout. Some exclusions do apply. And if you want to do old Badger and Sean's a mega favor, please visit back country.com/backpacker radio. This way they will know we sent you again. The code is backpacker 15 and the URL is a back country.com/backpacker radio gets them in case you're not already familiar. Green belly is the maker of. One of the most complete nutrition bars on the market, it'll contain 650 calories each more than two and a half times. The energy of a cliff bar. Think of them like cereal bars on steroids because green Belize meals are ready to eat, requiring no stove or cleanup. They make the perfect mid day trail meal. Their meals are super light and made with wholesome ingredients with flavors like peanut apricots, dark chocolate, banana mango, cashew coconut. 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I am your cohost, Zach Badger Davis, and sitting to my two o'clock is hi, I'm Juliana Jonsi AKA Chauncey. Hey, welcome back to the show. Thanks. I forgot I was gone. Yeah. Oh, it was nice. Do you want to do a run through on I wasn't planning on putting you on blast that just kind of happened. Um, I went to hike the JMT John Muir trail and the Sierra. We are going to cover it on a future episode where we catch up with me and Zach and Elise and the hikes that we've done. Um, and it was amazing. I started 50 miles further North on the PCT. So I started at Sonora pass, um, and hike South to Whitney and exited via the Whitney portal. Um, and I went with fireball from the girl stuff episode. Um, we did it in 15 days, I think. Or 16 days. What'd you call it? Her, her, Oh, it's Jaden name for it. Yeah, that was the one. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I went with fireball on her who ha and, um, I was so nice. I that's. I just, it was so nice. Yeah. Uh, the part that you weren't at the show was our wires got crossed on, in terms of timing, you were planning on pulling a 12 hour drive to get back for our six o'clock recording. And our recording was at 2:00 PM. So I looked into that. I was going to let this slide, I was gonna let you off the hook. Um, you changed the calendar notification while I was on my 10 day stretch without cool. You get to edit this out publicly. I, you and I had a conversation about it before you left. Did we really? Yeah. A hundred percent. Oh, Well, I'm done for next time. Today's question of the day. Is, does China need Gingko? Biloba? No. Uh, none. So non traditional ways to track your mileage. This was your one. So I'm gonna let you kick it off. Okay. So on the PCT, I used to track my mileage, like obviously by checking gut hooks, but then you want to stop yourself from looking at the map so that you don't constantly check your map. Um, so just. By nature of. Just noticing a pattern. I noticed that every five songs was roughly a mile when I was listening to music. Um, so I started tracking songs or tracking miles in songs. And so I had just like completely stopped listening to music just because I wasn't actually listening and it wouldn't skip a song if it was halfway through. And I didn't want to hear it. Cause I was like, what the hell? It'll mess up my account. Oh, their races. My mileage. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But on the JMT just now recently, um, I had a lot of jolly ranchers on me and I tried, what have I forgot what I was going down a Hill. And it was like a long downhill. It was like six miles. And I had nothing else to think about. And I was like, I wonder how long it takes to eat a jolly rancher, if you don't chew it. And it was like 30 to 35 minutes. So I started figuring out that a jolly rancher would roughly get me a mile. Um, cause I wasn't going particularly fast, but yeah. So if I ate four jolly ranchers, I was like, okay, I've gone about four miles now. Like that's four jolly ranchers. Does that incentivize you to eat more candy? Because the more candy you eat, the further you get by that metric. Uh, yeah, I definitely ate all of the jolly ranchers that I had. Um, I was rationing them towards the end though, because I ate them on the uphills. They helped for me to not like keep stopping, cause my mouth was dry. So I kept eating them on uphills. And then I was running low on the second stretch. Um, so I had to ration myself to three jolly ranchers a day, but I just saved them for them. Mmm. So two answers to this one. Mine is the first one's pretty basic time. And I feel like I'm getting pretty good at estimating. Like I know assuming the train's not either very easy or very difficult going to be able to pull a mile and about 20 minutes, three miles per hour, that's pretty much my standard pace. Um, and even if the train is in one of those two directions, I can usually mentally adjust for it. Like I know if it's been 22 minutes and I'm on a steep uphill. Probably about 0.8, 2.9 miles a point, I guess the other one, and this one is way more neurotic. This is from having a pedometer on my watch for the last six years or so is I know precisely how many steps it takes for me to do any amount of distance. So I know 500 steps as a quarter mile, 2000 steps as a mile. So you're counting to 2000 while you're walking. There are times where I will count. Like if, if I'm too in my head and I feel like the time's going slowly, it, it actually acts as a meditation for me. Not necessarily, it's, it's less so to actually measure my distance and more so to just distract me from my boredom of hiking. Is that not like watching, like the kettle boil, like you're literally counting to 2000 and then starting over. And then starting over and it's like, cool, I've done three miles. And it feels like 17 years. Yeah. It, it, it literally, I use it purely as like a meditative practice. So instead of like focusing on my breathing, I'll just focusing on, I'll just focus on counting. Wow. I did read the first page of one of your books and you did put like, You know, it was like 5 million steps. Then you put that, like, it was like 5 million steps to complete the trail or something like that. The first page. Yeah. And that that's not come from the pedometer math. I think that's an old AT idiom. You can also, you know, I think it's generally understood that. 2000 steps is about a mile for most people. You're in Julia and you're like, shit lost count drive back to Mexico or to Canada. I keep a running, uh, one of those little step counters. What's the, there's a clicky thing. They have them at Walmart's. Now I need to count how many people come in and out. Patent pending. Alright. Uh, skip the shirt reminder. Should we've mentioned it. I feel like we don't have any new merge, so it's not worth mentioning. I mean, you just mentioned that. Okay. Yeah, we have, we have merged. Cool. Okay. Let's get to today's main events. Gentlemen. We've been covering the, have on the show for a long time back in the day when we would, uh, Hold out for getting guests in person. I think I've been reaching out to twerk for the last year and a half about coming on the show and we just haven't been able to make it work. Um, but very excited to officially give him the warm backpacker radio. Welcome it. Is torque. Do you prefer your trail name or do you want to go by Tommy? What do you want to do here? I mean, first fine. Yeah. I like, yeah, let's jump right into the trail name because I think I can take a good guess at it, but I'm curious to get the full story. How did you get the trail name to work? I mean, it's a name you earn. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Think it was my first hike in 17 when I did, I dunno, like 900 miles and then quit. Um, I carried a little Bluetooth speaker with me on trail and at the end of the night, I would, uh, I would get all the hikers in a circle and we listened to music and I had everyone like go around and like do their own stretch. And one night we were doing it and I was up against the tree. So I said, Hey, everyone has to come to the tree and like go upside down and twerk. Um, and there also had been a rip the liner of my shorts and I wear very short shorts. So. I think one of the first names was bought back and I was like, I'm not writing home about that. So someone suggested work and I was like, Oh, that fits me a lot better. So yeah. Toric or boss act or indecent exposure. Yeah, exactly. I knew I just, I had a feeling I was going to get something stupid. So I was like, well, I'll just take it now. Yeah. Um, and I don't want to bury the lead here. Anyone who is familiar with the hiking community, Instagram has seen twerks Instagram posts. I feel like if you've been on Instagram in the last three years, I don't care who you are. You've seen hiker trash Vogue. So. We're going to get to that. Let's just, let's just put that as a hanging thought. Let's get to the background of how did you first get into backpacking? Mmm. I, so when I lived in Portland, my roommate, who was actually one of my good friends, they all, but he was just a, you know, I, my roommate slept and I needed a roommate. So I found a roommate on this. And as a kid, Andrew, who happened to hike the 80, a few years prior to moving in with me. And, uh, he was. Planning for a PCT 17 hike and had kept like, mentioning like, Oh, you should like do the PCT. And I was like, nah, I was like, I'm never going to fucking do the PCT. Like I'm not, you know, like, it just doesn't sound fun. Also quick background. My oldest brother, Joe, he ha he threw hike in 2011. So I already knew what the PCT was. I like kind of knew what it entailed. My brother did it on a high snow year, so I heard a lot of horror stories. Uh, And, um, so I was just like, Oh, that's like, when my brother did it, like, my family was like, he's fucking crazy, like theirs. So I was just like, there was no way in hell I'd ever do that, but he's, I dunno, my anyway, Andrew just kept like asking me and asking me. And one night we, he had, uh, the night he broke up with his girlfriend. Um, I brought over a bunch of wine and we just like sat on the floor and I just, I jumped in late, decided I was like, fine, I'll fucking do it. I'll go with like, I'll go with you. Um, and I'm, and I'm like very big on like, not backing down from things. Like, if I say I'm going to do something, I'm usually the kind of person that like shows up. So that's when I decided here you go. Uh, so, so your first PCT hike was 2017. Yeah. So Sean says here, did you guys cross paths at all? No, I don't think so. Where you going North? Yeah. When did you start? April 22nd. Okay. You probably passed me at some point. I started April 4th, but it was like moving at a snail pace. Okay. Oh no, I, I probably definitely did not pass it. I was, I was like 12, 15 milers. Okay. Yeah, maybe not. Then maybe we were just like to move the points. Yeah. Like 1250 miles a day, maybe 18 if I like had a good day and then like lots of zeros. Yeah. That sounds like my desert experience as well. Yeah. Yeah. So give us the full rundown on your 2017 hike. You mentioned that you're someone that doesn't back down from things. Um, this was, is this your first backpacking trip ever? Uh, I only did one, me and Andrew and my buddy did that sister's loop, which was my first backpacking trip ever in 2016. So we did 50 miles around the three sisters here actually right outside of bend. And. It was like super fun, but like I was limping to the car and I remember like, I remember being really pissed off cause my buddy camera and just kept being like, I think it's only a couple more miles and I'm like, I'm literally gonna fucking choke you. If you say that one more time. I just want to get to the car. Uh, so it was like really hard. Like I, and it was a four day trip, you know, like now it's like, you know, like that sounds super easy. We did like. You know, like 13 miles, I think 16 was the biggest day, like nine miles, you know? Um, so it's kind of funny to look back on that and think about how hard it was, but I kinda just like threw myself into it. Uh, so yeah, that was the first backpacking trip. And then I didn't do anything at all. Like anything physical really until I did CC. So did that short, I guess, short as relative, does that trip builds excitement or anxiety for your attempted through. Uh, I think it was a little bit, yeah, both. I was just like, fuck, like, this is really hard, but it's really fun. So like, I wonder how the PCT will be. Um, and then, you know, it's like as soon as you're on the, on the trail, like as soon as you get to the terms, you just start walking. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, this sucks. I have blisters and like things hurt, but they're like already out there. So there's nothing really to like, have anxiety about it. Just more like the daunting, like. Oh, man, I have to get up and do this again tomorrow kind of thing. But yeah, and I had a great year. Like he made a lot of friends in 17, we got the Kennedy Meadows and I was like, Nope, not going to the Sierras. So I skipped up to nor Cal and then like barely saw really anyone I knew and, um, ended up. Quitting like a couple of weeks later, just cause I was just like, Oh, you know what, this isn't for me. Um, and then I went, I went back to Portland like a week later, moved in with my old roommate, went back to my old job. They let me back. And like within a few months I was like, Oh, damn like, especially when all my friends started finishing and posting their photos, I was like, Oh shit. I like really wish I would have like, stayed out there. Um, and so I literally, I immediately just like stopped going out, stopped doing things and just started saving my money and was like, I'm gonna get a permit and I'm going to go again next year. I'm actually going to do it. Did the fact that in nor Cal, you were close to Redding, like where you grew up. Contribute to you wanting to get off the trail. Cause I know on the 80, when I got to New York, it was near home. That was like, eh, I don't have to go back out there. Like I was kind of getting those feelings of I'm comfortable here. Like I don't want to be uncomfortable again. Did that play into it at all? Yeah, honestly, I think that did have like a, I think it had like a pretty big part in it, but you know, a significant part like, Oh, like. I'm just walking around home right now. I mean, I haven't lived there in years. I, you know, been living in Portland up until I started hiking. Um, but yeah, it was kind of that comfortability I'm like, well, it would just be so much easier to go home and like, you know, like have a shower and like a bed. Um, so yeah, and I knew my parents like would like, come get me if I needed to. But I also just, like, at that point, I like really wasn't having that much fun either. Um, I don't know. I think if I would have, like, for me, like, I obviously love the hiking now. Like I know that, but for me, I was like, I wanted to go out there and like take photos, but I just didn't feel really, I didn't feel I was inspired in 2017 as I did going back in 2018. And I'm glad you mentioned, Oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, yeah, and I think. I wonder how my height would have been different if I hadn't like done like hiker trash bow. Cause I think that had a big part of me really wanting to hike the entire trail and finish. Yeah. So I want to, I want to pin that point for a second, but I'm, I'm glad that you brought up. Your story in terms of you getting off and experiencing that instant regret, because I've seen that template so many times just through what I do with the Trek. If I had a nickel for every time, I've seen someone get off the trail and then, you know, within a month, the. There's a tidal wave of regret of their decision, and they're already plotting for how they can redo it the following year. Um, I think that's a really inspiring story and it just goes to show that, you know, even when you're not having the best of time on trail, you don't fully appreciate how much you're actually enjoying the experience or appreciating the experience or how much better, even like a not ideal time on trail is relative to. You know, the nine to five type of style life that we live on our day to days. I think it's really interesting that you realize that so quickly. Was there any part of you that wanted to just join back up with your hiking family? Or why did you decide on doing it the following year, as opposed to like, just piecing together what you could with the remaining time in 2017? Um, well, cause like I said, like I got back and I went back to work and I kind of went back to my old life and. Uh, in Portland and it took a couple of months time, like I was starting to like regret it is when people were starting to like, Finish and be almost done. So, I mean like the season was over, you know, unless I, I guess would go back down and go southbound or something, but I just, I dunno, I just, uh, at that point I was like, these like friends are my friends. Um, you know, I'll be friends with them still. So I want to, I want to like get the full experience. That's what I wanted. So that's why I waited until 18 to like start, start over from the beginning. Now let's jump to the 2018 hike. Did you ever experience the same degree of low that you experienced in 2017? Cause you mentioned that having hiker trash Vogue gave you a sense of purpose to actually finish the trail. I'm curious if you went through the same level of hardship during the course of the hike. Um, kind of, so the thing that was. The whole reason I'm here. Yeah. I quit in 17 it's because when I went to rehab, like in 2018 from day one, I was just like, Oh my God, I am so. Happy like I've I had, like, it was just happiness. Like, you guys know this, you guys are hikers. Like it's just happiness. You can never replicate. And I wouldn't, I don't think I would've had that if I hadn't had quit in 17. Cause I just knew so badly that I wanted to just be back there. And in starting at the Terminus again, I was like, okay, just get to camp tonight. It wasn't like, okay, like, let's go to Canada. It was like, Let's get to camp and let's just enjoy every fucking day that you can. And hopefully, you know, by the grace of God, you can make it up there. But I really wasn't. I really never thought about Canada until I like got to bridge of the gods. Like I was just like having so much fun, but sorry to answer your question too much detail. Um, uh, do you. Do you like my really low point within the Sierra? I was, I was alone for a lot of it. It seemed like, um, and it was, it's just a really hard section and I really didn't see like a lot of other hikers in the Sierra. I just saw a lot of like CMT hikers, which, you know, the majority of them are going the opposite way. So you're just like, Hey, what's up? Um, so I was really low in this year, but then like, I think it was maybe two Walla me or somewhere around there. I that's what I like. Met up with all these, like all my friends that have hiking, like maybe 400 miles with not with like, you know, probably my most significant group of people I hiked with. Um, but even in the Sierra, when I was at that really low point and like super lonely, I would still like enjoying it. You know, like, cause I, cause I just kept reminding myself. I'm like, okay, you're having a hard time. Where else do you want to be right now? Do you want to use this money? Like go on vacation. You want to go to Italy? What do you want to do? And the answer was always like, no, I want to be right here where I am right now. So even in the low point I knew I wanted to be there and it just felt, it felt right. Even though like I was having a hard time. Yeah, I think that's like super relatable. Cause I, I felt like those exact feelings when I was on the at T cause I had, I had done the PCT in 2017. I didn't think I wanted to do the 80 at all. Like I remember there was like, you could pull clips from this podcast where I'm like, I have no fucking interest in that trail at all. And like, and then I worked a year and a half at a desk job that I hated. Like I did not enjoy it. I sat through 2018 watched everyone that I was on trail with in 2017, or at least it felt like everyone posting photos with them starting a trail again. And it was like, I could do it. Elliot was starting a ball flap was starting the PC or the 80 that year. And like every day it was like, you put in your two weeks notice. Now it's not too late for you to start. And like, we just kept, like, I kept sitting there and like I was, I think we talked about this, how I would like play on like those lunchtime cries, where I would just like, be sad about my job. But then like in 2019, when I finally took the, you know, I left my job and I went to do the 80, it was like a cold snap below zero degrees at night in Georgia, it was snowing. Like people were quitting cause it was so cold and they were miserable. And I was like, all smiles. I was just like, happy to be there. You know? Cause I knew that I could be at home and I could be like watching other people do it. And you know, a bad day out there is a great day at home. So it's just like, I completely understand. Yeah. Having that year off, like you just make you like having the time off makes you appreciate it so much more. Yeah. I was like worried too though. And I'd get back from the aid too. It'd be the same way this year. And like, Not luckily, but the everything with COVID. I didn't have to get that FOMO again, watching everyone to part on a new trail. Luckily there was a parent. Thank God for that. No, I don't mean it that way, but I like, I didn't get that spring. Like you get like a reoccurrence of the posterial depression. I feel like in spring. Oh, absolutely. Like I like. Last year. I was like dreading through hiker season to start. Cause I'm like, Hey, here we go. This is the first year out. Like having to watch everyone else hike. And it was, it is hard. Like, but then it's cool. Cause it is kind of cool at the Instagram thing. Like watching all these people you're like, you don't know, but like seeing them finish, no, like here's another person you got to like experience something so fucking magical, you know, like if you like can't help it, like feel happy for people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely something super cool. And it's awesome that you got to be able to get up there and do it again. Yeah, I know. I want to go again, but I mean, we'll see, I'm not gonna make any plans the same trail. If you say T again. Uh, I kind of want to southbound it before I think about other trails. Everyone's like, why don't you just do a different trail? I'm like, I fucking love the PCT. So let me South on it. And then I'll think about other things I haven't, I have not hiked the PCT northbound obviously, but I would venture to guess that doing it's outbound is basically doing a different trail because everyone I've talked to that. That's gone northbound and hiked through Washington, like without fail, they've had terrible weather throughout Washington. And I think we had maybe six hours of rain throughout the entire time, going through Washington southbound doing and the weather in the Sierra was perfect. We had no mosquitoes in Oregon. Um, I think the trade off in the area where people generally love the trail where, uh, I didn't particularly love this stretch nor did my hiking partner was the desert. You know, at that point for us, we were. We had just come out of this year, the most beautiful stretch of the trail, kind of getting to that point where we're ready to be done. Java had already done the desert, I think two or three times prior. So we were both kind of, you know, we didn't hate it, but it's certainly, if I had to rank the sections of the trail, it was my last, my least favorite. Um, so yeah, I think outbounding is a totally different experience. And I think just getting that. Good weather version of Washington is worth the price of admission. If nothing else, just Washington southbound and just do the state southbound in the state of, or in the month of July, we have to be had great weather finishing, and I was a late finisher. I finished October 5th. Oh, yeah. All my friends were like finishing like September 7th, December 10th or 15th. And they're like, dude, , you're not going to finish. It's going to get cold. But we had like two weeks of straight on through Washington, like going around, go rock around right here. And then it started to get cold in the North cascades, obviously. But like, we didn't have a shit ton of rain. There was just one night where we were in a blizzard and it was like below 15 degrees and. I was laying in my tent being like you fucking idiot. You took 39, zero days. You could have been done with it. You wouldn't be here right now. I just like kicking myself. And then at one point I was like, damn, I hope I just die tonight. So I don't have to hike tomorrow on the snow. The part of you that was like looming dread for the winter coming in Washington after seeing like the heavy snow year in 2017 and flipping around the Sierra. Cause I feel like part of me is always like. I like a little apprehensive whenever there's snow, because of that. Yeah. I, you know, I wasn't, Washington was really hard for me cause like, I, this is how I explained this. It's like, you know, when you, you know, when you have to take a shit really bad and you're like on your way home and like the closer you get to home to like more, you have to go yes. Coming down, Whitney. Okay, good. I was like, maybe that's so. Uh, I kind of related to that where like you get to Washington, you, you know, you're almost done. My body was just like breaking down. Like I felt like my legs were just gonna fucking snap in half, any day. So I was like, not really worried about whether I'm just worried that if my body was going to hold up for me to make it to the end. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. By the way, I felt like every day, like it was great and I was having a great time, but like the days are shorter. I'm not a super fast hiker. It's also a hard section. So it was like getting the camp past dark some of the time, which I really hate doing, but yeah, I'm glad you bring up that analogy, which I love by the way. This hits so close to home. It's happened to me maybe a month ago. Oh, that gets the Sarah Shera poop story. Here's my proof. He is smiling ear to ear as he is. It's so exciting because I honestly, this would have been out of my memory forever. Had to work, not just, and he liked fixed his pocket posture and his like bouncing. I'm old. I might shit myself. I'm so excited. You don't regret it. Uh, every morning I take my dog on about a two mile walk. Uh, one particular morning. I felt a little grumble in my stomach before I left, but I'm like, whatever, I'll just deal with this. When I get back, I got no more than three quarters of a mile from my house and the urge like struck suddenly. And I knew I didn't have a mile of walking in me and there's no bathroom between where I was going and my house. So I literally. Called my wife to come pick me up halfway between the point where I was in our home. And she drove me like three minutes back to the house being like, how old are you? Uh, yeah, and like legitimately I had to get out of the car as the garage door was opening and like scurry upstairs, it was a really bad situation. It was almost, it was terrible. It was really good. Um, I do, I want to get. Into the hiker trash Vogue thing. But since we're on the subject of poop, this is a very poop is choosing this hiker trash books. Yeah. I'm just dangling, dangling it for people. But yeah, I think this is a weird segue, but speaking of anger, trash Vogue, this one time at poop. So just generally, do you have any standout proof stories? It's been a minute since we've had one, you know, 18 did. I did pretty, pretty damn good. Uh, but. In 17, actually, the only time I ever shipped my pants while hiking was not even on trail, I was, uh, into Hatchapee and sharing a bed with my friend, Kathleen and woke up middle of the night. And, uh, I was also very sick after this. I think I had maybe gotten noro, probably got Nora, but I woke up at like three in the morning and like, shit, the bed and let's I was wearing my shorts. I like got new shorts. That's like the liner in them. So wait, there was definitely. Was this like a friend or was this like a, you know, a friend? Like what kind of stuff? Oh no, this is my, this is my friend, Kathleen, who I started the trail with. She started with me and Andrew. You want to know like what level of embarrassing this was going to be? Oh yeah, dude. If it was, uh, I would, I, you know, I wouldn't talk about it again. Um, uh, yeah, so I, I had to get up and like, I like got to the shower. I was not feeling well. And I like had to wash my shorts in the shower. Uh, and I was like, you know, lightly crying in the shower and I like come out and they like put the towel over the stain on the bed and in the morning, and in the morning I wake up and she's just like, why are you. So close to me and I'm like, Oh, sorry, mr. Rollover. I would have never told her this story. She doesn't know. No, I need to tell her, I might wait. Maybe I'll wait until like her birthday or something like that. Yeah. Or you could just send her this episode is for you in here. Yeah. It shouldn't be mad. It's just so long ago that like, I just. There's never been a good time. And now I'd kind of want to wait for the right time. It's like her wedding. Um, there, this reminds me of a good call back. So my friend came on and she told the story about her shitting. No, actually she didn't shit. Her friend. What was the story? She sinks shitter. This really was clogged and she took the. The toilet, the poop out of the toilet with a giant spoon and put it in the sink to try to unclog the toilet. And people walked in on her, like started calling her sink and she told this whole story about it on a past episode. And it was fantastic, but she was like, I want to stay anonymous. She told me that some guy from her job. Came up to her and he was like, I know your sink shitter. He was like, I listened to that podcast. I know, it's you. I heard your voice. I know. It's you? She does a very distinct, she was like, I looked at him and I was like, tell no one. Oh my God, that literally was just making me gag. I can't handle that. What was it? She was like, She has like transferring the shit from the toilet to the sink with a Spooner. Yeah. There was like a large spoon that like moves like the water into the sauna on the rocks. And then it was too clog to be unclogged. So she had to like, that's our next, that's our next t-shirt to clog to be unplugged. All right. Let's put this back on the rails. Let's talk about hiker trash Bogues so were waiting so long. Well, actually, let's start with your background as a photographer, because I know you were a blogger for the Trek in 17. I want to say, uh, it was readily apparent even then that obviously you were a phenomenally talented photographer. So give us a rundown on your background in photography prior to backpacking. Uh, it's not that I didn't, my dad just gave me his camera when I hit I 12. And so I shot film for like six weeks, seven years. And then, yeah, I made, as soon as I picked up the camera, I never stopped. So that's kind of, yeah, that's my background. I just, like, I just knew as soon as I picked up a camera, I just, like, I knew I wanted to be a photographer. Interesting. So trance is a pretty solid photographer. I am terrible. So you're going to have to speak to the lowest common denominator here. Do you think that starting with film photography for any reason is like a good white belt? Is that a good intro? Would you recommend someone who wants to get into photography start with film or is that just totally irrelevant? Um, I mean, if they want, I mean, like, I, you know, Because I learned that film. Like, I don't feel bad shooting digital, cause like I know how, like I do all my settings manually. Like I know how to do that. And I, I still shoot film for like personal stuff obviously. But, um, I don't know, like, I mean it's cheaper to do digital, but films really fun. Like I like kind of the genuine quality of it, you know, knowing that like, okay, I'm not going to take. 50 shots of the same thing when I own, you know, I only have 24 exposures in a role. So I mean, I think film's really fun. Um, and yeah, it's just, uh, so I, it just depends on, I guess, what kind of work people are wanting to produce. Okay. So now tell us about how did photography play into your 2017 night? Uh, not really. I mean, I brought my camera and I took portraits of people, but it was just. I dunno, I, I, in 17, like, I, I felt like I wanted to do something bigger than just like, Hey, just take photos of people and whatever. And so, um, I think maybe that was like a little bit of reason. I was disheartened with my like 2017 hike. I was like, Oh, I came out here and like, I'm hiking, but I'm like, you know, I'm not really like doing anything with my work that feels worthwhile to me at least. Um, So I think that was a part of the reason I quit as well. And then I am 18. I didn't start hiker trash bulb until like Wrightwood that's when I like got the inspiration to do it. Um, but at that point I was just having so much fun being back on trail that I wasn't even thinking about the photography aspect, which was really nice. It was nice to know like, Oh, I actually really love backpacking. Do you think that part of it had to do with the fact that you learned how to long distance hike? The first time. And then once you knew kind of what it took to pull a big mile day or to, you know, get to camp on time or to take breaks when you should, and not, when you shouldn't like that helped give you the free time to focus on that. When you, you know, the first time around you were just focusing on how do I do this and get to camp the next day and or at the end at night, and then hike again the next day. Yeah. You know, I've never even thought about that then. I absolutely like that. I think that's exactly right. That was, you know, it's, like I said, I mean, I did maybe like two or three 20 mile days in 2017 and I thought that was, I thought that was like endless for me. I was just like, Holy, okay. It's a long. But then when I came back in 2018, like my first day I did 20 miles to the Marina. Oh, that's kind of weird. Cause I got, I got to like, how's your Creek super fast. Like at like one 30 or two o'clock and I was like, Oh, that's that's what, 15 miles. And I was like, Oh, that's kinda weird. I was like, I feel really good still. And I don't like camp down here with like 30 people. It's the small area. So I started the hike up to, uh, Lake Morena and I got there. I was like, that's kind of weird. And then the next day I did the whatever 22 miles to, um, Mount Laguna. And I'm like, this is I'm done. I'm like, this has gotta be a fluke. So I just like one more 20 mile day after that, then I got to Julian and then I was like, I'm going to slow it down. So I did like. One like 15 mile day. I was like, okay, now I'm bored. So like, I guess I can do this. So it was kind of, kind of weird. I was able to do it right off the bat. Whereas the first year it was like dying. Just doing like 12 miles. Yeah. I remember like in the desert, I like, I remember I was going down to Cabazon that 19 mile downhill. And on that 90 mile downhill, I had done my first five miles consecutive without stopping. And I told the girls making with, like, I was like, I was amazed, blown away. I was like, I just did five miles without stopping for a break. And she was like, yeah, like that's like normal. And I was like, Oh my God, like that is not normal at all. And I think like the second round. Yeah. The second time around when you're not like, when you know how to like pace out your breaks, like the mileage feels familiar and you're not, it doesn't seem as well. Like you get places faster and you have more free time to swim in the lakes or do photography or pursue like something that you're passionate about. Whereas the first time you're just trying to make it through the day. Totally. Yeah. And like, it, it, it became so fun to like, it, people always ask me like, Oh, did it ever feel like work? And it was like, no, like it, I was doing, I was taking two things and like combining them, and then also like sharing my art with people I love by including them in my art. So, I mean, it was, it was a dream come true for me. Like, I felt like. I think for me, it was like the most meaningful work I've ever done because it was meaningful to me. And it was just a bonus that people liked it and in thought, but for me, I would have done it regardless. How are you editing your photos on trail? Are you using like polar or like we're using Photoshop on your phone? Um, I actually did everything on my phone and I used, um, Vesco and. There's another like Japanese app I had found, and it kind of adds that like grainy texture, um, called Calla, C a L L a. Those are the only two apps I use. Like, I didn't even like discover the Lightroom app until I finished the trail. I'm like, Oh, this would have been like, A lot nicer, but yeah, let's take a step back for a second and define what, what is hiker trash vote? Cause I think people who are the people who obviously follow you on Instagram, who, or who have seen your stuff, know the answer to this question, but assume that you're speaking to someone that has no clue what this is. Yeah. It's um, I explain it as an editorial style photography project that revolt that, you know, basically. It's making dirty new hikers, um, pretend like they're high fashion model. Yeah. And torque's not allowed to be, uh, braggadocious about his own work, but it's so good. It's so good. Not only the quality of the photography, but the things that you're able to get people to do that is the most fascinating aspect to get them to sit, still sit, still dump milk on their face. Like, so walk us, walk us through some of your favorite poses. One of my favorite photos eat. Like he poses like, yeah, that was good. Yeah. Whatever you're having your photography victims do for the shots. I mean the milk one yeah. Stands out to me too, just cause it's so fucking funny, but uh, I don't know, like I have different favorite photos for different reasons, you know? Like. Some of them, like, you know, that other people might not like, I really loved because I know whether I know that person, right. Like there's a story behind it. You know, something funny happened that day. Also like a lot, like, what I love about a lot of my work is I don't let, usually people smile, uh, But it's always funny because there's so many outtakes of people laughing and just like, I should post the outtakes too with them too. Cause it's like, it's really funny. Cause we get like one shot, but then it's them just being like awkward or goofy or like there's so many people that like, like you say, don't smile and what do they do? They start laughing and then, and then I get past them. Listen, you have to listen. So we can get the shot you're on a schedule. So you mentioned that a lot of your favorite photos might be ones that other people might not pick. Cause there's like funny stories or things attached to them. What are some stories you could tell us behind the photos that people might not know about? Um, what's one that stands out like my profile photo. I mean, I think everyone knows, like, if you follow me, like I got done by a wasp on my. Uh, I don't know, eyebrow. Um, and it's funny because we were just about to cross bridge of the gods. Like we were, I'm not even kidding you, 10 feet from bridge of the gods and all these loss start going everywhere. And I get stung on my eyebrow and we start crossing and like the three guys I'm hiking with, they're like having their, like, you know, Bridge of the gods moment. They're fucking like Reese would have been MoMA and I'm N and I'm hiking behind them holding my face, being like, fuck motherfucker, are you fucking kidding me? I'm like, I'm livid. Like, I don't even remember cause crossing the bridge. Cause I was just like, what the hell? Um, and then the next morning I woke up and I like asked my, my, the friend I was hiking with. It was like, Hey, is this something wrong with my face? He was like, Holy shit. The perks of known the Arizona trail. Yeah. Yeah, what's funny is that later that day, I was like, damn to see so many people a day. Like, and there's this like older Asian man. Yeah. Who was kind of hiking around us. Um, he, I don't think he really took zero. We'd take a zero and we'd pass them again. So I saw him, probably passed them like five or six times. And that morning I saw him again. Cause they recognize this walk and his like his little backpack and his hat he would wear. And, um, And I think it was hard of hearing. Cause like there was one time where he like, couldn't hear me move. So I'd be like, Hey, good morning. You know, somebody was like, I could like pass them. And so I was coming up behind him and says, hi, good morning. And he goes to turn around and he goes, Oh, he said he is, but I think it was my faith. And it was really funny. That is when I, I want to talk about. How are you getting people to do this? So people, again, who are not familiar with the hiking Instagram community, this became a really big thing, but obviously I had to start somewhere. So at some point early on in the process, Before anyone knew what the hell hiker treasure Vogue was. You had to convince them to dump milk on their face. Let's. Can we talk about kind of the evolution from the first people that you started to do for their portraits and then how that progressed? I'm imagining yet people coming up to you like. Begging you asking you to do this by the end of the hike. Okay. We take a step further back. Do you have any experience like shooting editorial photography or like high fashion photography? Or was this just something that you were like, I've seen magazines. I can make them post, like, how did you even know what to do? Great. Uh, so I, so I w did a stint of college. Um, I did a year and a half of that in San Francisco at the Academy of art. And I actually was going to double major in like fashion, just cause I wanted, like, since I was a kid, I was like, I'm going to be a fashion photographer. Like that's what I want to do. And then working with the fashion kids, I was like, I do not want to be a fashion photographer cause I do people. But so like, I've always, I love like I have. That's about fashion photography still. I just like, I love how like outrageous and like ridiculous it is. Um, and. I, so, yeah, I still I've. I feel like my work is, Oh, it's been a little bit like editorial also. I really like concept art where I kind of like create stories with an image. Um, so I like, that's my like hiker trash Vogue is my style. Like that's like, if you look at my other work, it's my style. Just like with hikers and in the outdoors. Makes sense. Uh, okay. Now back to back, back to the question of like, was it difficult to get people that are not models who are maybe even insecure about the way that they look bruises from the hip belt or change? Yeah. And obviously the ladies are not wearing makeup. Everyone looks like trash. Maybe that's an overstatement, but like, I didn't really everyone's dirty as fuck. Yeah. Like I can't tell you how many. Like girls, I would photograph and be like, okay, my hair is a mess. Right. And I'm like, yeah, that's the fucking point. But it's so funny. Cause you look at these pictures and I'm maybe just, cause I know most of these people and I with them and like, but I mean, you look at all these people and they look fucking gorgeous, but also like everyone on trail looks great because what are we doing? We're like, we're not going to work. Like we're not stressed about anything. We're literally just like. Do you want, like, you know, doing something for ourselves, that's just like, amazing. So it's like, how do you expect people not to look good when they're like the happiest I've ever been? I heard a joke in the beginning of the PCT from another hiker that was. Uh, it went, how do you, or wire through hikers? All so attractive. And the answer was because they walk the ugly off in the first hundred miles. And like in the first few hundred miles, like I, part of it like meant like, you know, like we're getting like muscular and in shape and everything, but I think it's also like, people just become happier. Like they become happier, like people that are just, yeah, the little moment the life comes back to their eyes. You can see it. Yeah. Well, and yeah. And here's the thing with, yeah. Kind of like going off, what you just said is. Like what, how do like happy? What do happy people exude exude confidence and nothing is sexier than someone who's confident. Like, I don't care how big or small or muscular or like, whatever you are, like, confidence is hot. And like when you're out there, how can you not. Feel good about yourself, despite the fact that we're like on showered and dirty, but here's the thing all of us are. So what are you saying to people early on to get them to do these crazy things? Yeah. What's your pitch? Um, so, well, when it started, we were in Wrightwood and I was sharing, um, I had gotten a house with. Like, uh, eight other people that had been hiking around and we were just like taking a day off and it was like, Oh, let's all, let's have a hiker photo shoot piece of gear and, well, it's like you stupid poses. Don't be really funny. And I posted it and then like all these like companies and people started sharing it and stuff. I was like, Oh, okay, well maybe this is my like, uh, I mean, this is like my project thing. So I just kept doing it every time. I'd like get to a town or like, like a place on trail boards. There was a lot of hikers. So it's, I feel like it started pretty like, you know, pretty lighthearted and then. As I went on, I just, you know, I'd get more and more creative and I try to add more prompts or just like, be as outrageous as I could. But the end of the trail, literally people were just like throwing themselves out. Maybe like, I'll do anything. Like what should I do? Like I'll get naked and I'll pour milk on my leg. You know, I'll ride this bear. Like, I don't know, like people were just like willing to do anything. I was going to say where people kind of like seeking you out, like where you just like filling up water at a stream and people go, Oh my God, it's twerk. Take a photo of me. Here's my tits. You know? Sorry. I mean, I think people, like, I definitely feel like there was moments there where people would just like, see me and they would, I feel like maybe they were like, Wanting to say something. I actually had a few insistence where like, people would write me later. They're like, Oh, I like saw you at camp or saw you it something, but I didn't want to like, bother you. I'm like, why are you bothering me? I'm just another hiker. You know, it's always weird when they, when they tell you after. And you're like, dude, just say something it's weird. They knew the whole time. And didn't say anything. Yeah. But there would be people who'd be like, Oh, can you, can you like take a photo of me? And I was like, well, you can't, I. I mean, it doesn't bother me that much. Like people ask, but if I'm like, sometimes I didn't want to take a photo, like all the time, you know, like I have to do it, like when I took photos because I felt inspired and I saw something or I saw someone and then I wanted to create something. I can't just, you know, it's just not like, Hey, like write a song or, Hey, do this thing. That's creative. Like. Right. Like, you gotta like, like what go stand by that tree. You know, how, how hard is it to think of an entire setup for a photo on the spot? Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it's not that hard to just like take a photo, obviously. But like when I take a photo, I want it to be like, I want it to be genuine. I don't want to do it. Cause I have to, you know, I want to do it cause I want to. Um, and so, I mean, Sometimes I would just be like, Hey, here's the picture? And then whatever. But yeah, most of the times it's like, I would just like be stopping people on tour. I'll be like, Hey, I have this idea. You're going to do this right now. And they're like, Oh, okay. I'm curious. Did you do any landscape photography along the way or was it purely just these hiker trash broke photos? Uh, on my phone. It's funny though. I can't tell you, like, I could go through my pictures on my phone from like, PCT like landscaped. And like, I couldn't tell you where like any of them were. Yeah. Like, it'd be like, Oh, that looks familiar, but I haven't no idea where it was. I can go through all my PCP photos and tell you exactly the mile marker like exactly where, where, what happened that day. If I look, I don't know, I just associate people with memories and memories. Yeah, for sure. I remember hearing that early on in the eighties, and I even did a bad job with this after receiving this very Sage advice. But, you know, everyone wants to take the same picture of the same Ridge or the same sunset or yada yada yada, and like, you know, there's people out there with $3,000 cameras that are going to do a million times better job than you are. Take pictures of the people around you. Those are the things that you're going to remember. Those are the things you're going to miss the most. And I think at least I'm I'm victim of this. I am constantly taking pictures of the landscapes terribly and not enough photos of my fellow hikers. Yeah. Sometimes like, I feel awkward asking for people that'll give me a hitch or let me stay or whatever. Like, I'll feel awkward asking them, Hey, can we take a picture before I leave? But then like, those are the ones I look back on it. I'm like, Oh my God. And this was this family I stayed with, or this was this guy. They gave us this hitch that had this crazy story. And there's just so many more memories attached with it that a picture of a mountain has. Yeah, totally. I know. That's one thing I wish I would have done is take more pictures of like trail angels and like people I met that like weren't hiking, but I don't know. I just felt like it was just really like. Personal thing that I didn't want to like bother someone that already did something nice for me by being like, can I take here pose? You know, like I would've done more. Like, can I just take a picture of you? You don't have to do anything just like a snapshot, but I think I was just like more in my head, but like, if I'm going to take a picture, I'm going to have you do something crazy. You know, we can go big here. So, so hiker, trash Vogue means a lot of things. It started out as a concept. Through your Instagram photography, and then it evolved into a bigger project. Can you talk us through that? Um, which bro, what do you mean? Didn't you make a wasn't there, wasn't there a book? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I did two books. Sorry. I was like, I mean, that was the, yeah. Yeah. So at what point did you decide that the series was going to be made into a book and talk us through the logistics on that? Because I I've self published to self published, but the prospect of self publishing. Yeah, that sounds is it a hardcover? Yeah, they're both hard covers. Um, and I knew I was going to. Pretty much what I got to like nor Cal, I was like, okay, like done more than half the trail. Like if I finished. I'm going to like, make a book of this, but I was like, I was like, I'm not going to do a book if I don't finish. Like, I just felt like I had to finish. We're just stupid, you know? But like, for me, I just felt like I had to complete this to make the book you'll complete. Cause it won't feel complete to me. Um, if I don't like make it to Canada, um, which I did, no, it was like, like ridiculous. Um, but. It's in my head. That's how I felt. But so in nor Cal, I was already like, kind of making layouts in my head and like writing down, like things. I want to remember when I was done and off trail. And then like, literally like two weeks after I got up Charles, they came, no, sir. It's time to start designing, start writing. Um, getting other hikers to write. Yeah, it was a big project. Like it was. Um, it was actually like quite stressful. Like by the time I decided to do the second book and started design it, I'm like, Holy shit. I did not, I should have not signed up to do the second one. Cause like it's a lot of, it really is a lot of work and I, it was just, it was very stressful and the first one was so fun. Cause I was like, cool. I can dig like good to all my photos and like. I was like way more inspired. And then the second one made it feel like work. So at least that that's enough. Like, I should only do things. Like if I feel like it's good creative outlet, not like I'm forced to do it. Did you make it on InDesign or did you use like one of those photo bookmakers online? Um, Shutterfly, I think is what I'm thinking of. I used to make camp books for the, for the campers, with Shutterfly. Designed the entire thing via Photoshop. Oh wow. You did like spread my spread on Photoshop, everything I've tried in design. And I was like, I don't have time to learn this. Oh my God. We should have, we should have talked. Yeah. I know. All of my friends who are designers are like you did on Photoshop. What the hell? And I was like, I don't know. I was just like, I didn't want to learn something else new to like finish the thing. But I think I do have InDesign and I do want to learn it cause like, I probably will do some other sort of book. Well, if you ever want to like FaceTime for like 30 minutes, I could teach you the whole thing. I made our high school year book in it. And then that's what I made hiking from home on. Um, it's so simple. It's just, you just gotta know what buttons to click. Yeah. That's what my friends, all my friends who were like designers said, and I was like, okay, well I'll learn it for next time. Yeah. Well I'll, I'll show you. We'll play it on time. So I'm curious, what is the cost of making one of these giant photo color, rich books that, that can't be cheap. Yeah. Um, the first one I made, which was 11, um, 11 or eight and a half by 11 hot each book cost me like $82. Cause it was like, It was also like almost 300 pages. And I went with like the highest quality color, highest quality, uh, paper, you know? Cause I was like, you know what? I'm not like I'm not doing this to make money. I'm just doing it because I want people to like have my work. So if people want to pay for it, they'll pay it. So what were you selling them for? That makes sense. Which, which like, sounds like a lot, but. I the way I explain it is like I spent $8,500 on the PCP like that, like the work I produce, like it's not like me just like, Oh, I was like bought a camera and I'm going to be a photographer. It's like this, like there's at that point with 18 years of experience behind it, you know, there like so many years of like mastering my craft. And if you think about it, you sell a PR one print to someone like. Sometimes that's like two, $300, depending on how big. Yeah, so like getting a book of like all the work I, I had to like. Talk myself into it though. Cause I was ready to just be like, you know what, I'm just going to do, like everything cheap that people just have it. And I was like, you know what? I want people to like actually want my work. I feel like that's like the point of a coffee shop book though. Or I'm not a coffee, a coffee table book. Like one of those where you just flip through the pages, it's like, it's going to be expensive, but you're going to put it there and it's going to be enjoyable. The flip through, I think scout talked about it when he was talking about is Pacific crest trail book. Um, Not the one that he just put out in the last episode, but the actual photo album he talked about in the first episode, they were, yeah. Like the printing fees can be outrageous. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. But like, I mean, you pay for quality and like, I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna have that thing. Like send people from like bullshit book, you know? Did you notice any. Negative impacts to the quality of the second book, because it wasn't as much of a passion project. Um, no, actually I, you know, what's funny though, is like, when I was sending out, I was like, God, I hope people don't hate this because like, for, in my mind I was like, I mean, I still spent the same amount of time working on that. On the second one I spent almost, you know, almost six months redoing it and changing it. So it was different from the other one. And, um, But I was nervous that people were going to get it and be like, Oh, this cause a lot of there's a lot of people that bo
