Professor Eddie Glaude Jr. and Professor Imani Perry look back and reflect on the events of August 2019. Together, they examine the New York Times 1619 Project; its impact, backlash, and the questions it raises. Perry also shares insights on the writing style of her newly released book, Breathe: A Letter to My Sons. She speaks on the influence of Toni Morrison's literary legacy and what inspired the composition of her book. We then sit down with Eddie Glaude Jr. and Julian E. Zelizer, Author, and Professor at Princeton University, to discuss the challenges of balancing and teaching within the academic and public media arena. They then explore the historical cycle of racialized politics displayed by President Donald Trump and its impact within America as we approach the 2020 Elections. Podcast Transcript: (0:00)[music playing] Eddie Glaude: Hello, and thank you for listening to African American Studies at Princeton University, a conversation around the field of African American Studies and the black experience in the 21st century. I'm your host, Eddie S. Glaude Jr. I'm the chair of the Department of African American Studies here at Princeton. You're listening to Episode 17, recorded on Monday, August 26 2019, and today, I'm joined by Professor Imani Perry. Imani Perry is the Hughes - Rogers Professor of African American Studies and faculty associate in the program in Law and Public Affairs and Gender and Sexuality Studies at Princeton. She has written and taught on a number of topics regarding race in African American culture. And she's a prolific writer. Her more recent books include: May We Forever Stand: A History of the Black National Anthem, Vexy Thing: On Gender and Liberation. And the award winning book Looking for Lorraine, the radiant life of Lorraine Hansberry. Her latest book is scheduled to hit the stands in September, and we'll be talking about it today, Breathe: A Letter To My Sons. So we just recently had a kind of historic event in mass media with the publication in the New York Times magazine of the 1619 project. Imani Perry: Uh-hmm Eddie Glaude: And you know, we could have easily, we could easily talk about the specific pieces, uh, if we wanted to, but I wanted us to kind of pull back a bit Imani Perry: Hmm Eddie Glaude: And think about the effort to renarrate the story. Imani Perry: Yes Eddie Glaude: And I want to, I want to approach it from the vantage point of, of your work. Imani Perry: Yes Eddie Glaude: And the things that we've been talking about over these so many years. One of the more important recommendations of more beautiful and more beautiful and more terrible is that we renarrate. Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: And that renarration is important, not only in the context of these micro practices, Imani Perry: Uh-hmm Eddie Glaude: How we describe communities,(2:00) where it seems as if they're not picking up the trash Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: How we talk about undocumented workers in the range of ways in which we talked about a rate, that we talked about the contradictions in our society, and how the way we narrate or tell that story, orients us Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: ...to how we respond. So let's pan out a bit. Imani Perry: Hmm Eddie Glaude: And think about the 1619 project as it effort of renarration, what do you think about it? Imani Perry: Uhm. I think it's fantastic. I think, you know, there's a reason that at this moment in history, we are trying to find ways of telling the story of the nation that help us understand how we got here, right? And in a number of great ways, right? So, certainly, when you start this story of this country, and I say that, you know, there's, there's lots of ways to tell origin stories, there's a, there's a series of different moments that we could identify as the beginning. I think 1619 is impart significant, because it both marks that kind of British settler colonial project in this nation, and puts uhm African people at the center of it, and in particular, much more greater particularity, the exploitation of their labor, combined with the extraction of resources from this land, right? That helps us understand, of course, the depth of racial inequality that we live with 400 years later, the climate disaster that is in pending, right, because part of the logic of that settlement was extraction and exploitation that was reckless. And helps us understand how central markets have been to the formation of the nation, we tend to tell these sort of romanticized stories about the republican form of government,(4:00)uhm, sort of the, the mythologies attached to the narrative of Plymouth Rock are more likely to form the central narration of the nation and of the Constitutional Convention than Jamestown. So something important is shifting in this narration, because it is necessary to shift the paradigm to make sense of the world we live in. Right, we pick up there millions upon millions of historical facts, we pick up upon some for, uhm, very particular purposes in our time. And I think there's something really extraordinarily important about telling the story of how we got to a point of such uhm, suffering. At the same time is there such abundance and even excess in the nation. Right? Eddie Glaude: Yeah, you know, I'm always whenever I think about origin stories, I'm always reminded of Edward Said's wonderful book, Beginnings. Imani Perry: Yes. Eddie Glaude: And you know, Said always riff, riff the thesis with that book with this line that, you know, the problem of beginnings is the beginning of the problem. Imani Perry: Right Eddie Glaude: Where we start... Imani Perry: Hmm-mm Eddie Glaude:... matters. Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: And so I think you're absolutely right, that to begin with 1619, you know, which we begin with the fact that America was a corporation before it was a country. Imani Perry: Absolutely. Eddie Glaude: Uh, the reality of-of slavery, as complicated as it is, and the venture of servitude, Imani Perry: Hm-mmm Eddie Glaude: and the range of, of class differentiation Imani Perry: Yes Eddie Glaude: That's the present there coming to view. But it's also very complicated story to begin 1619 to kind of draw, and not to say that there was a straight line drawn Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: Between that start that starting point in which slavery comes into view. Imani Perry: Hm-hmm? Eddie Glaude: And say, our colleague, Kevin Cruz's piece about the way your race, uh, informed the traffic jams, Imani Perry: Yeah Eddie Glaude: Informs the traffic jams in Atlanta, (6:00) Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: But races, you know, in 1619, is a very fluid and complicated reality during that period. Imani Perry: Right. Eddi Glaude: So to. So on the one hand, it's a beginning that allows Imani Perry: Hmm-mmm Eddie Glaude: Some clarification but on another hand, right, it raises all sorts of questions. Imani Perry: Right. I mean, races unsettled, right? Even the status. Eddie Glaude: When you say unsettled, what do you mean? Imani Perry: Uhm. Or not yet. It's not yet codified. Right? The question of, so I should say, so it's not as though slavery didn't yet exist, right. And we can see that and, you know, the Spanish colonies, and even in Sir Francis Drake's in Roanoke, a landing some you know, I guess, almost 40 years earlier. So uhm when I say it's unsettled, I don't mean that there isn't already a conception of a racialized form of slavery, I don't mean, there isn't already a conception of hierarchies of human beings. But it's not clear that we're gonna have at that point, that there's gonna be such a deeply codified structure of racialization hierarchy, especially when these people from various parts of the world are having these fresh encounters with each other. Right. And battles and wars. Right. And so there's this, there is, and also, the question of, you know, what is it I think over, you know, a majority of people on that initial settlement didn't survive, right? So, uhm, even what this enterprise is going to be is not, is not sure at that moment. And I think that's actually instructive for this moment, as well, because we tend to take the configuration of our world for granted in ways that we probably shouldn't, right, the order of the world, particularly the kind of legacies of the domination of Europe. The history of, uhm, Empire and the United States as the inheritor right, the, the new nation that inherits(8:00) the role of the European empires. There's an open question mark, about how long that will be sustained in this moment. And so I think, as you looking at the, the flux, that is actually always a part of history, even though we don't often attend to it, and in our immediate time is really important. Eddie Glaude: And you know, it's, it's always hard to think about the way in which these national narratives work. Imani Perry: Hmm-hmm Eddie Glaude: So with that, you know, it's one thing to say that it's not necessarily a kind of litany of our sins, because it's not just simply that Imani Perry: No. Eddie Glaude: But it's also not just simply a kind of confirmation from the underside, right? Of the grandness of America. Imani Perry: No. Eddie Glaude: So it's not just simply an affirmation of the project from those who've been excluded. So I've always, you know, as we think about because it's a historic moment in... Imani Perry: Yes. Right. Eddie Glaude: ...mass culture in, Imani Perry: So what do we do with it Eddie Glaude:.. in republic domain. Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: What do we do with it? Imani Perry: That's right. Eddie Glaude: It's the question, right? Imani Perry: Right. Eddie Glaude: How does it, how does it generate a layered and more complex conversation? Imani Perry: Right. And I, I do think we always run the, run the risk in the United States because of how powerful the mythologies of American exceptionalism are. Irrespective of the nuance and the complexity of the stor