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Episode Info: as Finajet, which is a brand name of Trenbolone. The human approved version was Parabolan made in France by Negma. After that was discontinued, what a lot of guys did was they would get Finaplix H pellets, which are still available for veterinary use in beefing up cattle. People would use these conversion kits to change these pellets into injectable solutions of Trenbolone. I believe that is the origin of how veterinary use migrated into human use following the discontinuation of pharma grade Trenbolone products. If you actually go to Merck's website, you can still see Finaplix H pellets that are sold for beefing up cattle. Parabolan was the human approved Trenbolone and that was discontinued in the 90's. I guess they started to go towards the veterinary stuff after that. EQ is also a veterinary drug, at least in modern times. Chris Cormier:  “But a lot of (INAUDIBLE) it's hard to find now. There's a number of — you know, people kind of tried, but now it's go for what's available, what you think is real, or, you know, sometimes a lot of things are not even real, what's your taking and you thought he's taking something.” Tom Platz:  “Yeah.” [8:55]  It sounds like the accessibility was limited back then. These guys take what they can get kind of thing. It's interesting because these are all top Olympia competitors being interviewed. For them to say, “you take what you can find and what's available,” it's crazy to hear that they had availability issues. You can just imagine what the average Joe would go through trying to get good gear back then if even the top pros had access issues. Tom Platz:  “That's definitely a concern. I can — I can understand that. Well, and — so basically, it's what's available and what you can get a hold of and hopefully it's real.” Chris Cormier:  “Well, Parabolans and Primobolan, you see they would get like back in the day, there's — the growth hormone was not playing a key role in a lot of people's arsenal.” Tom Platz:  “Yes, that's like …” Chris Cormier:  “And you know …” Growth Hormone Use And Dosage Tom Platz:  “Let's talk about like currently, what you're using and what kind of dosages you might be using in terms of the androgenic and the anabolic material as such.” Chris Cormier:  “Currently, I could take growth hormone and use about 9 IUs a day.” Tom Platz:  “How long might that be for?” Chris Cormier:  “As long as you can afford.” Tom Platz:  “Yes, I can understand that. Is that prior to a contest only?” [10:23]  9 IUs, that's pretty high definitely, in my opinion. Chris Cormier:  “You know, I've used it in the whole season, I use it for competition.” Tom Platz:  “What's better results where?” Chris Cormier:  “I like to use it during — getting ready for competition because (INAUDIBLE) seem to burn all my body fat. And, you know, your energy levels are high, your nitrogen levels are high, and, you know, you have — you're really energetic and, you know, strong, and …” Tom Platz:  “Can you get any one to …” [10:52]  It's interesting to hear him say “energetic” because I feel for most people, once you get over 4 or 5 IUs of high quality, pharma-grade GH, you get tired and lethargic. You release the most GH when you're sleeping, this is a hormone that makes you tired and spikes your blood sugar. This isn't something that gives you tons of energy as a pre-workout drug, so it's kind of interesting to hear him say that. Typically, one of the biggest limiting factors for people using growth hormone is insulin resistance and lethargy. Tom Platz:  “… you're on growth hormone?  You eat anything you want to?” Chris Cormier:  “I do anyway.  You know, I — you know, I tend to be able to cheat a little bit more. And we're getting really good results from it, yes.” Anadrol Use Chris Cormier:  “And that's my favorite drug, Anadrol, the different types of Anadrol that's available now.” Tom Platz:  “Staying with it, before we go on to the steroids, the GH or the growth hormone. It's like, if you're — I realized if you could take it all-year long, you take it all-year long if you could afford it (INAUDIBLE) just — am I hearing you …” Chris Cormier:  “I probably wouldn't myself. You know, I'm not like a person who would — you know, that's my favorite thing to do is take a lot of drugs, and you know, this type of new drug …” Tom Platz:  “God.  I don't mean — I don't mean to say it that like …” Chris Cormier:  “Well, no.  I don't know, I probably could if I were, you know, but that's very expensive to do something like that.” [12:29]  Doing 9 units year-round, you would probably end up in danger zone for insulin resistance, in my opinion. Just a heads up on that. Tom Platz:  “… for an event nowadays.  Like say, we'd want name (INAUDIBLE)” Chris Cormier:  “How far out or?” Tom Platz: “How far out?” Chris Cormier:  “Maybe 12 weeks out?” Tom Platz: “Okay.  12 weeks out, 9 IUs a day, yeah? It's — I'm sure it's pricey, for sure.” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah.” Chris Cormier's Offseason Steroids Tom Platz: “Now, moving on from the growth hormone, stepping back into the steroid arena, prior to an event, are the steroids different than they would be in the offseason?” Chris Cormier:  “You would cycle… my — personally, I would start out like 15 weeks out if I have my way.” Tom Platz:  “Okay.  Let's go …” Chris Cormier:  “15 weeks out then I use the heavier, more water retention type substances about — for the — for like a Dbol, like Equipoise, Anadrol.” Clenbuterol, Winstrol, and Cytomel Use Chris Cormier:  “I use Clenbuterol with (INAUDIBLE) I would start switching to more hard …” [13:37]  Clenbuterol 15 weeks out is interesting because I feel like most guys wouldn't add that in until closer to the tail end of a contest prep. Everything else he's saying is pretty consistent with the other guys as far as long esters and things that hold more nitrogen as well as more water retention further out from the show. Chris Cormier:  “… hardening things like Halotestin and Cytogen, and Winstrol and …” [14:07]  Halotestin and Winstrol I'm aware of. I don't know what Cytogen is though. Chris Cormier:  “Primobolan and say Cytomel, I will start that. [14:19]  Cytomel is T3. Chris Cormier:  “That's all of my — when I want to — when I'm starting the phase and taking a little harder.” Tom Platz: “Which is like?” Chris Cormier:  “Usually, when around 8 to 6 weeks out. I started out — the Cytogen, I'll take it like five weeks out or something like that. And that's even pushing a little bit.” Chris Cormier's Vague Dosing Tom Platz:  “Okay.  Do you usually start with a lower dosage, go high and then regress or …” Chris Cormier:  “I just — I don't take a lot of (INAUDIBLE) Like for testosterone, I will probably take about maybe a couple of cc's twice a week or something like that.” [14:55]  See, it's funny, something I'm realizing is that most of these guys quantify just in volume, not even the doses. They're saying a cc here, a cc here, 2 cc's a week. Tom has to dig to get an answer in milligrams. It's interesting how they quantify things back then in cc's as if one dose is one cc, which is interesting. Chris Cormier:  “You know, a lot of people might take more or less a little bit. Testosterone now I've always — or I at a young age even I was told to take as little as possible to get the effects that you're looking for. So, I was, that's my — my first instinct is to do that with most of the drugs that I take. And then, from there, I would, you know, if 4 IUs is not working for me, or if I'd say 200 mg is not good for me, I'll go up to 400 mg, or you know, something like that.” Tom Platz:  “Do you have a formula like a daily milligram allotment or do you …” Chris Cormier:  “I used to.  I used to.  Now, it's just like, “Okay, Mondays and — Mondays and Thursdays, I'm going to be doing this and that. I'm going to kick in this whatever, and I'm also looking at the mirror seeing over the years, you learn how to, you know, say hey, I'm holding a lot more water from — you know, this might be a reason, so I'm going to take that out, and put this in.  You know, so like a recipe or something.” Chris Cormier's Steroid Dosages Tom Platz:  “Okay.  Like, in the offseason with the — more strength-enhancing, the bulking type agents or drugs. Give me some idea, if you would, please, if you would share with us some idea of the dosages of those things, and then we'll move on to the pre-contest.” Chris Cormier:  “Well, testosterone can be anywhere from, say, 600 mg, 800 mg a week of testosterone. Primobolan, I like to take about, say, 400 mg a week. Equipoise I would probably do like a full — syringe full twice — two times a week.” Tom Platz:  “Full syringe meaning what?” Chris Cormier:  “It depends — like say — like, say, it depends like if it's like 50 mg or whatever.   But, you know, Equipoise is not — it's not like really high on androgens. And it was like a mixture of both. And so, I kind of just (INAUDIBLE) cc's two to three times a week of that. For I was kicking some …” [17:42]  I don't know if the EQ was concentrated at 50 mg/ml. It's kind of interesting because pretty much every UGL does 200 to 300 mg, and then here he's talking about 50 mg unless I'm misinterpreting what he said. It sounds so far, we're at 1,600 to 2,000 mg approximately per week. Chris Cormier:  “Growth Hormone and I would do, say, 4 — I still go around 4 IUs per day and work my way up to 9 or so …” Tom Platz:  “The growth hormone does go up and then stops.” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah.  You know what, I like to go about 8 to 10 weeks with growth hormone. And then once you start to come off of it, you start, you know, you lose a little bit of water. But the size and strength usually stays pretty good with the growth hormone. My offseason cycles, now I like to take around four to five different types of steroids at one time.” Tom Platz:  “Is it two androgenic and two anabolic or …?” Chris Cormier:  “And even more even — yeah, I keep it pretty even like that, yeah. Tom Platz:  “Offseason?  And as you move into the season, the heavier androgenics come out to some degree?” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, I do it that way and then — but at the same time, you know, I — like for decades. And I would — I would probably do, say, about 400 mg or — 400 to 800 mg per week of the deca alone.” Tom Platz:  “And that's usually starting closer to the contest. Chris Cormier:  “Right, exactly.” Pro-Bodybuilder Dosages Vs Average Bodybuilder Dosages [19:17]  These doses are all pretty standard honestly. Some of these are even low. I know tons of guys who think EQ is useless under 700 mg, they think Primobolan is useless under 900 mg, Deca is 400 mg minimum, and all these crazy preconceived notions. These guys are using pretty much normal gym rats are using plus some GH. The steroid use itself is pretty interesting. Tom Platz:  “Okay.  So, before a contest, it might mean eight weeks in, the Deca, you mentioned I think Winstrol, and that would be like cc's of that would be, approximately? Chris Cormier:  “See, that's — again, that's usually 50 mg per bottle you're taking. About two or three bottles per time, like two times a week or so. Tom Platz:  “Okay.  So, if you're using two …” [20:18]  So, the Winstrol is 50 mg/ml and 2 to 3 bottles a few times a week, so you're at 300 to 450 per week, approximately. Chris Cormier's Hardening Agents Tom Platz:  “… androgenics and two anabolics prior to — during the offseason. Before the event eight weeks in, you're using more hardening agents, as you call it, and no more anabolics.  And that would be how many agents, roughly?  I know it changes from …” Chris Cormier:  “That depends on what's available at the time and what's in your budget for your competition. So, let's say, you know, if you're training for a show, and you have — you have Halotestin, Cytogen, some type of …” Tom Platz:  “Halotestin?” Chris Cormier:  “… Clenbuterol.  Halotestin, I'd like to take about 30 to 40 mg per day.” [21:13]  I've always heard guys say, don't go over 20 mg because 20 mg is a threshold where you start getting into a really toxic territory, and to only use it two weeks out. 30 to 40 mg, that seems pretty high, but that's something I have a lot less experience researching, to be honest. It seems like a pretty high dose for that. Chris Cormier:  “I start it for about five weeks out or so.” Tom Platz:  “Okay.  That is a hardening type agent.” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah.  And Cytogen, that's about four weeks out, and I'm starting our different (INAUDIBLE) milligrams, and you take in — you start up (INAUDIBLE) going up to two — I've got two on one off with that.   That's pretty hard on your system, so you want to kind of, you know, not stay on it too long.   And then the Cytogen — the Cytomel also — it's also needed for the extra body fat that you're burning. And also, it works really well with the growth hormone also.” Nolvadex and Proviron Use Chris Cormier:  “And I would say (INAUDIBLE) you know, stick on Nolvadex and Proviron, stuff like that for extra hardening effects. You know, I've used both of those with — at different times.  And what else?” Tom Platz:  “Well — so many different ways to go in this.” I mean — so is there any time during the year when you, for sure, don't take steroids and …” Chris Cormier:  “Right after — well, coming out to competition like the last week or so, discard all the steroids and, you know, you tend to look harder because it's all making you hold some kind of water, some kind of — in some kind of area.” Tom Platz:  “Is there a number of months during the year that you don't take steroids at all?” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, I've done — and I've done that during the course of my career.   I've — actually, I've taken a lot of time off. Sometimes I would take a 12-week cycle, and I would go off for 12 weeks. You know, and I would …” Tom Platz:  “So, there's no exact (INAUDIBLE) change in …” Chris Cormier:  “Right, right.   It changes, and as you develop and grow bigger and you start to change the way you do a lot of things and take a lot different things, and you know?” Chris Cormier's Take On Insulin Use Tom Platz:  “Since we've been speaking about GH to some degree already offseason or on season, we discussed drugs, steroids in terms of offseason versus on season. And whatever your cyclic pattern, which changes a great deal.   My next question would be insulin, is that ever a consideration in your program?” Chris Cormier:  “Yes, I've used it for a contest prep, as far as I starting my off cycles off with, you know, helping you gain a little bit more weight before you start to cut down. And (INAUDIBLE) works, you know, really well. It's just really dangerous for people to use it. And you really have to know what you're doing if you're starting to step into that arena.” Tom Platz:  “So, you only take it when you're getting size?” Chris Cormier:  “I did that, but I also took it to, you know, carb-up phase during competition.” Tom Platz:  “Okay, but you don't take it other than maybe the last week before the show then?” Chris Cormier:  “On the last year — yeah, the last — within the last week, the last few days before the show.” Tom Platz:  “And then maybe in the offseason for how long?” Chris Cormier:  “For a few weeks.  I never — I never took a long cycle.  I went — it's not my favorite thing to do.” [24:52]  See, it's interesting because a lot of guys think that these guys are on Lantus with their GH pretty much year-round to gain massive amounts of size, and crank their IGF-1 up. It seems like the insulin use is actually really conservative, or perhaps it's just the taboo drug, so no one wants to come clean about how they actually use it. I don't really know for sure, but no one seems to have very aggressive insulin use so far, and that's out of every person in this series. Chris Cormier:  “Doing all that stuff, you know, watching yourself if you're going to fall asleep or not. It's just — it's really — it's really dangerous, and …” Insulin Dosage Tom Platz:  “About dosage as far as insulin?” Chris Cormier:  “Dosages, I would — I would go about — if I was going to take it in the offseason I would do about three or — three or four times a day. And I would space it out every six hours or so for about 12 to 15 IUs I believe or so.” Tom Platz:  “Okay.  I'm not sure the …” Chris Cormier:  “On a syringe, you will see 10, 20, 30. I would take within — between 10 and 20. No more than that though.” Tom Platz:  “And that was …” [26:05]  12 the 15 IUs three times a day? That's a pretty considerable amount, granted the duration of time though, you would assume these guys are using it much more than just a few sporadic times for carbing up or for a few weeks a year for hypertrophy. The dosing schedule is more in line with what I'd expect though, utilizing several doses throughout the day of probably a fast-acting insulin with each meal. Although, I was expecting somebody to have been on a longer acting Insulin based around all of their meals in a day, but it doesn't seem like anyone's doing that in this series. Tom Platz:  “Three times a day?” Chris Cormier:  “Three times a day? Early in the morning then soon after, only then in the evening.” Tom Platz:  “Is it after workout, before working out?” Chris Cormier:  “I've done it — I've tried it that way also. I tried it in the middle of my workout even. And so, on your time (INAUDIBLE) for within that 20 minutes, you're going to be done and you're gonna start eating, and that seemed to work pretty good too.  But I just — I'm not really, you know ventured into getting really serious about doing the insulin deal.” Tom Platz:  “So, it's just sort of something you played with.” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, played with, but never really seriously seen the actual effects of what can — what can be done with …” [27:19]  For somebody on 9 IUs of GH though, again, that's somebody who could probably benefit from insulin, not just in a performance-enhancing context, but health standpoint, because there's a lot of stress on your pancreas if you have chronically elevated blood sugar from that much growth hormone all day. Chris Cormier:  “I do know the dangerous sides of it. You know, because I've seen a lot of people get a lot of — a lot of bad reactions from it, and I've been in dangerous — put yourself in dangerous positions from it. I've seen it firsthand, so I do know not to mess with it too much.” Aldactone Use Tom Platz:  “Okay.  Well, the next item I'd like to discuss with you would be the use of diuretics.   Is that (INAUDIBLE) been something you've utilized?” Chris Cormier:  “Well, I've used that since I was a teenager, I started using it.   It's — I've never really had a problem with it. I never took a lot — I never took over 75 mg of like Aldactone. 75 mg has been the most I've taken per day of that (INAUDIBLE) my body is very sensitive to a lot of water. And I never had a lot of problems with cramping or anything like that, that lot of people have associated with diuretic use.” Tom Platz:  “The Aldactone is used at the last week prior to a show?” Dyazide Use Chris Cormier:  “I started — yes, like the Tuesday on to the show. And then like, say, like a Friday or so, I would start with a little bit of Dyazide. You have guys open up Dyazide caps and empty a little …” [28:59]  That's the classic protocol. Again, it's the same diuretic protocol you see time and time again. It seems everyone's more or less doing the same thing. The difference comes down to genetics it seems like at the end of the day. I feel like that's definitely the takeaway message from this series. Chris Cormier:  “Out of it so it wouldn't be as strong as normal. And that's something I've always been really sensitive about taking because it tend to take a long …” [29:25]  If I was competing for example, and I was going to do a peak week, I would avoid Aldactone. I think it sucks, personally. The half a Dyazide the night before if you actually need it makes sense, but I feel a week out, you should be lean enough and already stage ready and just cruise into the show. I feel Aldactone has more negatives than positives. The Dyazide more than accomplishes the goal of getting that extra crispy, dry, grainy look that the Aldactone might achieve, but it's a lot harder to fill out on Aldactone, at least in my experience. I feel like it's a subpar diuretic that's overly used. That's just my personal opinion, though. Chris Cormier:  “(INAUDIBLE) water out of the muscle also is, you know, is just as much as it takes it from — between the muscle and the skin.   You're going to lose a bit of size, and so I've never been, you know, a big fan on taking a lot of milligrams in terms of diuretics.” Tom Platz:  “But mainly, prior to an event, you find that it's Aldactone and a little Dyazide is effective?” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, very effective, very effective. And the difference between a couple places if you didn't take it, definitely. Chris Cormier's Take On Diuretic Testing In The 90's Tom Platz:  “Now, that I understand they're testing for diuretics in the Olympia only, exclusively, how to get around that?” Chris Cormier:  “They've done it for most.   Sometimes if you go to a show and they don't test us — well, you don't — you don't know about it, though, and you know, who's to say if, you know, if they really tested for it or not, but you know, there are times when people have gotten caught for taking things.” Tom Platz:  “Is there any specific way that there are masking agent for diuretics or a way to get around the …” Chris Cormier:  “Not that I know of. Not that I know of. I think if you lower your sodium a lot more than normal and play with that, that number and take the — a lot of the natural diuretics that's available over the counter. That with a combination with the (INAUDIBLE) and you know, it's hard — I've used insulin and the insulin tends to suck a little bit of water from — into the muscle from in between the skin and the muscle. So, that would still — the muscle fibers looked as if as though the skin is tighter around it.” Tom Platz:  “This is with …” Chris Cormier:  “(INAUDIBLE) I use insulin and the …” Tom Platz:  “And diuretic?” Chris Cormier:  “With — the natural diuretics, you know, (INAUDIBLE) together to make — give you a pretty good tight look.” Tom Platz:  “Okay.  Okay.  So, like, when — if you do take diuretics prior to a show, they're usually natural diuretics and not Aldactone or Dyazide.” Chris Cormier:  “I've tried that also.  I tried it to where I stopped the use of diuretics on a Wednesday, and I was tested on a Saturday, and it wasn't in my system. But then between the Wednesday and Saturday, your water — your water intake has to be at all-time low. I've tried that with taking — the only thing I drank from the Wednesday until Saturday was a diuretic tea. I've tried that, and it seemed to work pretty well. I only tried it once, though. I'm just trying different ways to, you know, get the best — the best results.” Tom Platz:  “I guess my question would be, do you think the steroid — diuretic test is real?” Chris Cormier:  “I think it's real. I don't want to test, you know, risk losing all my money or — you know, it's not saying because there's not much, you know, discipline behind getting busted for it. But losing that money is the — that's the biggest thing at this point in time.” Chris Cormier's Scariest Insulin Experience Tom Platz:  “As a pro-athlete, I understand.  Sure. Anything really scary ever happened to you with diuretic use or GH use or insulin use?” Chris Cormier:  “I mean, you feel the effects when you take insulin.  As far as you know, lightheaded, sweating a lot, you just grab on to — the use of some kind of …” [34:00]  Quickly touching on “feeling” the effects of insulin. If you feel your insulin, you're not taking it right, just a heads up there. I don't know if that's consistent with every time he took it, but if he was taking 12 to 15 IUs of fast acting Insulin, I would understand why he would be going hypoglycemic fairly often. You shouldn't feel low blood sugar symptoms because you shouldn't be using enough insulin to drop your blood sugar that low to begin with, or you should be eating enough carbs to complement it. And if you get to that point, you're defeating the purpose of the insulin in the first place, which is to drive the nutrients from your current diet into the muscle more efficiently. If you add in carbs around your insulin use you're defeating the purpose of it and working against yourself. With your current diet, however much food you need to grow, your insulin dose should accommodate that amount of carbohydrates, not the other way around where you have some arbitrary dosages of 12 to 15 IUs, and then you're forcing yourself to have to take in an extra 120 to 150 g of carbs to make sure you don't end up with low blood sugar symptoms. That's a huge mistake guys make, they eat around their insulin dose, which is an arbitrary dose to begin with, rather than having their dose based around their diet, which is how a diabetic uses it and how it's intended to be used. You shouldn't ever be going hypoglycemic because you want to feel it. You shouldn't be feeling this at all. Go For Regular Checkups Chris Cormier:  “Sugar in the system or whatever. I've always had that when I got checkups for steroids stuff, I always (INAUDIBLE) you know, great results from that. It's always been fine.” Tom Platz:  “So, you do recommend checkups?” Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, definitely recommend checkups. Not so much right when you're in a competition phase, because you're taking a lot of different steroids and then the results is going to get back because there's going to be a pretty — a lot of problem, is not going to be normal. But I have to discard taking anything for say, six to eight weeks or so. And then go to the doctor, whatever, then I think if everything's back to normal, I think you're doing pretty much the right thing. Some people would — are getting, you know, some better results as far as their different — the sperm count now and their liver panel results coming back, you're still kind of high. That's — you know, you need to step — take a look back and see, is this all worth it for you, or are you getting, you know — is the push yourself is really (INAUDIBLE)” View On Steroid Use and Genetics In The 90's Tom Platz:  “Is the risk worth the effort?  How do you feel about competing in today's arena, on today's stage, you know?” Chris Cormier:  “I don't think that the problem I have (INAUDIBLE) when people are acting like it's all about drugs. And you know, I was — it's — you know, it seem to put a bad taste in your mouth when you see people at this stage is really all like — they brag about how they like to take steroids, how they like to (INAUDIBLE) you know? Because I'm still one of the guys that like to push hard and train intensely. And you know, I still want to see exactly what I can do as far as I can push myself to get the development that I was looking for, and you know, from — when I started this whole crusade.” Tom Platz:  “Do you ever — do you ever think to yourself that, Geez, I think we're pushing genetics to the ultimate edge that it's getting pretty risky?” Chris Cormier:  “Sometimes, yeah.” Tom Platz:  “Like when (INAUDIBLE) he has problems and you're like (INAUDIBLE) or Andreas Munzer, does it like make you think go on — take two steps backwards and go, “Wait a minute”? Chris Cormier:  “Yeah, definitely.  You have to be crazy not to. And you'd think that, oh, it won't happen to me.  I think it could happen to anyone.” [38:08]  If you don't know who Andreas Munzer is, I highly recommend you go look at his story. He's an example of a guy who basically red lined his body for bodybuilding year-round. The infamous Andreas Munzer death cycle… I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I should do a video on that too. His use was an example of insane levels of abuse, and it ended his life in his 30s. That's what they're referring to right here. Obviously, the goal is to have a long healthy life, while not becoming a bodybuilding statistic. That's what the purpose of these interviews is supposed to be for in the first place, rather than to shed light on what dosages you should be using. They're not trying to promote use, they're trying to shed light on the deaths themselves. I'm surprised that Munzer's passing wasn't brought up earlier. This is the first interview where they brought up notable deaths from a result of abuse. Chris Cormier's Advice For Upcoming Bodybuilders Tom Platz:  “Is there any suggestions or any words of wisdom you might give our viewers who were looking at you (INAUDIBLE) that's where I want to be in life?” Chris Cormier:  “I think that, first of all, I would suggest, if you really don't have what it takes to be one of those guys, you need to really be honest with yourself and say, “I could appreciate what they're doing, but it is not for me to step, you know, that far into what's dangerous and what's, you know, large (INAUDIBLE) you know, what's good for yourself. Then, secondly, I suggest if you did, you know, want to compete, and you're not going to go pro and whatever, I wouldn't do anything dangerous, and I wouldn't do — if you plan on taking it, then first I would suggest not to, you know, it's better not to and live longer, and you got to, you know, like, you know, you're going to have a lot easier life all around if you didn't.  But if we did choose to, then I would suggest taking a little as possible to get some results that you're looking for like I said.” Tom Platz:  “So, you think the steroids and the GH and the insulin and other agents can limit your life and put more stress in your body?” Chris Cormier:  “I would say so.” Bodybuilding's Chemical Warfare Tom Platz:  “Okay, I mean, I'm just going to understand, of course, and I've been where you are.   I've retired some time ago, but I'm watching it — our sport progress. And you know, I don't — it's no — it seems to have gotten to the point now, where it's maybe — I don't — you should answer this rather than me, but is it chemical warfare now?” Chris Cormier:  “In some ways, yeah.  I would — I would say yeah. I mean, when you're on out there away from home and you've taken different things, you know, I've been places and get a lot of bloody noses and things of that nature. You know, you start to, Oh my god, what's going on?   Or, you know, (INAUDIBLE) stuck here — and stuck in this period (INAUDIBLE)” [41:22]  If you have a bloody nose while you're running steroids I can almost guarantee it's blood pressure related. Check your blood pressure. High blood pressure is probably the number one easily preventable health risk in bodybuilding that ends up hurting a lot of guys down the road. It goes completely overlooked quite often because guys will just walk around with chronic stage 1 or even stage 2 hypertension for years and not even realize it. One of my best friends at age 21 had a pulmonary embolism from having a blood clot in his calf that traveled up to his brain. He had no idea it was there because he was walking around with chronically high blood pressure. I'm not sure if he was on steroids at the time, but it was 100% preventable. You don't want something like that to happen to you. Keep an eye on your blood pressure. It's a super easy thing to maintain to just by getting in your magnesium, your potassium, your sodium, your water, having a proper diet, avoiding excessively aromatizing compounds, keeping an eye on your blood pressure, and just not being stupid. Tom Platz:  “On an annual basis, say, if like…” [42:36]  When I was younger, I remember literally walking inside the University or sitting in a class, and I would just randomly get nosebleeds because my blood pressure was so high from the Dianabol I was on. I would get a nosebleed in the squat rack too when I was doing my sets. Even when I was a bouncer downtown, I remember there were a couple of times that I'd have to go to the bathroom in the middle of my shift because my nose would start bleeding while I was standing at the front door. Don't put yourself in that situation. Chris Cormier's Yearly Steroid Expense Tom Platz:  “If we look at the last few years back, understanding that the growth hormone and expense of that I think you mentioned up to 9 cc's …” Chris Cormier:  “9 IUs, yeah.” Tom Platz:  “9 IUs, I'm sorry.  You can tell growth wasn't around when I was competing. At least it was around when I bought a new car instead. What's the annual expenditure approximately on getting ready for an event?” [43:38]  It's interesting, Tom Platz just said it was around in his era, and his era is the 80's. A lot of people think that no one used growth hormone in the 80's, and it was a practice introduced in the 90's. Tom Platz:  “A rough number on that.” Chris Cormier:  “Close around $5,000 to — some people may go up to $10,000 or so … At least $5,000. Tom Platz:  “That's even with the growth hormone being involved in, you know …” Chris Cormier:  “That's at a minimum, yeah.” Tom Platz:  “So, you say, $5,000, $10,000 minimum? So, it can go as high as …” Chris Cormier:  “Depends on the person, you know?” Tom Platz:  “I have heard up to $100,000” Chris Cormier:  “It can go up.  I've put — some of the things I've done, I've done with $5,000 in that area.  That's all the drug use (INAUDIBLE) it depend on what kind of deals you're getting, and, you know …” Tom Platz:  “… what's available, and of course, how much the price of it, and …” Chris Cormier:  “Yes.  Because as I said, you know, I don't think — and that's not even a big number for what I'm doing. That's whatever I achieved on that money for stuff is — I think is pretty good.” The Open Use Of Drugs Through Doctors Tom Platz:  “And you've — do you think it would be healthier if it was not classified as a class 3 drug and it was a (INAUDIBLE) through doctor or medical intervention?” Chris Cormier:  “Definitely.  In other countries, you — that's available like that, have doctors and people that work closely with you. Because it's going to — people are going to do it anyway, they're going to do it no matter what the cause, no matter what the kind of trouble you can get into. It's going to happen and you see it every day.” [45:40]  I 100% agree with that. Chris Cormier:  “It's also in the bodybuilding but it's also (INAUDIBLE) on football and track and you know, things that — sports like that. Gymnastics, they're getting all of the time; swimming, and all that stuff. Tom Platz:  “I think it's worse now than it's ever been in all sports.” Chris Cormier:  “Definitely.  There's junior high school kids just taking pills and doing whatever. It's pretty — it's amazing.” Chris Cormier's Take On How Old A Person Should Be To Take Steroids Tom Platz:  “And how old do you think a person should be before considering a possible steroid program? We're not making recommendations here, of course. We're not pro-steroids, we're merely talking about reality, but …” Chris Cormier:  “I would suggest educating yourself on as many as long as you can stand it.   And wait as long as you can.” You know, if you can be in your mid-20's, or upper 20's and that would be a lot better than, you know, starting off, you know, early teens or whatever.” [46:37]  I mostly agree with that. I did a video and article on this recently too, about when a responsible time to start using would be, if your use was inevitable. It's not about when, as I'm not trying to say you should start. The entire point of the article was to state that if you're dead set on doing it, regardless of what people advise, then take these precautions into consideration. Basically, the chances of you, having the knowledge to, first of all, even implement pharmacology in a safe and effective manner, where you're probably not just wasting it, or at least the majority of it, is very unlikely at a young age, regardless of how much research you think you've done. I promise you, it takes years to understand this stuff thoroughly, as well as diet and training. The diet and training part itself takes a couple of years, at least, to really come into your own and understand. It's not just about you hitting your macros, it's not just about getting enough protein in, it goes far beyond that. The pharmacology is a whole new ballgame. Even once you get into that and you think you know everything, you'll learned a million new things over the next 5 to 10 years. I'm still learning to this day. I don't even think my knowledge was thorough enough when I started, and I wish I waited until a lot later to get into performance enhancement. I advise you to check out this article, “My Number 1 Piece Of Advice If You Are Going To Use Steroids.” Chris Cormier On Roid Rage Tom Platz:  “I understand you do have health concerns and makes total sense that you would have health concerns and the look at the risk versus the benefit. And this is your chosen profession, and you pursue it along those lines. I think every athlete I speak with feels the same way. And I hear that coming from you, a concern, but yet, not to commit suicide. You got to do it as strategically and as healthy as possible in order to compete in that arena. This stuff that we read about in the magazines called roid rage, does that really exist in your opinion?” Chris Cormier:  “I think it exists. But (INAUDIBLE) individuals that are — that are (INAUDIBLE) temper, and it's just heightened it. I think some of you have learned how to control that — it is an aggressive drug, it can make you really aggressive, you're really aggressive. And as you're going to be, you know, standard at risk in getting really upset and not being able to control yourself. I remember the first two years I was taken at it. And I had to go, Wait a minute (INAUDIBLE) A little bit more excited and, you know, it's just little — just someone crossing the street, you know, but it's — Yeah, I think — I think it's real. But I think people label a lot of people have roid rage, when is that really roid rage? I mean, you don't have to be on a cycle to get really mad.” [49:51]  It definitely just exacerbates your current state and the kind of a person you are in my opinion. I don't think it's going to make some really chill, mellow dude a psycho at all. I think it's going to make a guy who's a psycho more of a psycho though for sure. Chris Cormier:  “People prove that every day in the news.” Tom Platz:  “Do you think it enhances your natural aggressiveness.” Chris Cormier:  “Definitely.” Tom Platz:  “Or your natural personality to some degree?” Chris Cormier:  “Definitely.” Masking Agents Use Tom Platz:  “One of the things that I also want to discuss tonight would be masking agents of any kinds.  I mean, granted that you were able to get around the diuretic test based upon, you know, limiting your — time you're on certain diuretics and taking other (INAUDIBLE). Are there any masking agents that you ever utilized that were a benefit?” [50:38]  I'm not sure why this is such a prominent question. I don't think there's anything that's going to trick a test into thinking there's nothing in your system if the test was a legitimate test to begin with. For example, how could you take a Lasix and then pop another pill and have it trick a test into not thinking there's Lasix in your system? I don't know, it seems like an odd question. Chris Cormier:  “No.  Yeah, you hear about things, this and that, but I'm not one to try to take a chance on some (INAUDIBLE)” Tom Platz:  “How about things like Esiclene, where you inject into the muscle itself to temporarily (INAUDIBLE) the tissue, and is that of any benefit in your protocol?” Chris Cormier:  “Yes, that's definitely another benefit that people can, you know, probably put you up another spot or two if you — if you had Esiclene and you had the right — be in the right places and, you know — But a lot of people are abusing different effect — different substances like that. And it's just don't (INAUDIBLE) it's not what we started out to do. If that was the case, then why try to train your calves when you could just be sticking yourself with all kinds of different things. And you know, I'm just — like I said, I still like to see what I can do myself.” Chris Cormier's Take On A Complete Steroid Ban In Competitions Tom Platz:  “It makes me — when you said that, “still like to see what I could do myself,” if there was a test where nobody could take anything, otherwise, they'd be bust immediately. If there was a really, you know, test that would create a fair playing field, and if drugs were completely eradicated, would you be in favor of that?” Chris Cormier:  “Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's see what — let's see what we all can do. Yeah, definitely.” Tom Platz:  “I've often — and I've often thought about that. And if we could really have this test where no one could really pass the test and use any kind of drugs. Guys like yourself that, you know, they're doing real well, they're competing in all the top shows, and placing real high, and it's like — it's like — you know, it's like, it's getting old.” Chris Cormier:  “Oh, yeah, I would love — I'd love that.” Tom Platz:  “It's what I hear and that's sort of the way I feel, but I'm not going to …” Chris Cormier:  “But it's just — you know, like I said, if (INAUDIBLE) by the rules and everyone's gonna do, you know, exactly what, you know, just — yeah, that would be great.” Androstene Use Tom Platz:  “Just an interesting point that you brought — you brought up that I sort of thought about for a second. Besides the, you know, the drugs like the steroids and the GHs and the insulin and the diuretic......
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